Egyptian Symbols in Utah? Exploring LDS Folklore with a BYU Professor

Added: 2026-05-12

[00:00:00]Okay, guys. So, today we are going on an adventure.

[00:00:03]>> Careful, Chris.

[00:00:05]>> I'm going to die.

[00:00:07]>> We're going to meet an expert, a historian, a BYU professor, Chris Bllythe, who excels in Latterday Saint folklore.

[00:00:19]And we're going to go look for a petroglyph. him and I basically have this book that connects petroglyphs to Book of Mormon peoples and Egyptian peoples. And we're going to talk about how Latter-day Saints have reinterpreted things like this, some of the good things about that, but also some of the some of the harmful things that have come out of that just to gain a better understanding and appreciation of these things because as a Native American myself, this is important for me also as a Latter-day Saint myself. So, he hasn't seen this. We're going to meet him later today. I'm going to change my clothing and stuff, so it's a bit easier to hike, but we'll catch you guys in a bit. See you later. Bye.

[00:01:03]Hey, I'm with Chris Bllythe right now.

[00:01:06]We're heading out to some ruins. No, actually, to some petetroglyphs >> from this book here. You have this book, right?

[00:01:12]>> I do. I remember buying it when I was, you know, 22. You've seen this. Or are we going out there for the first time?

[00:01:18]>> I've seen this place.

[00:01:19]>> Awesome. I found it on active.

[00:01:21]>> You're my guide.

[00:01:22]>> I am the I am the the uh Indian tracker here.

[00:01:28]>> Oh my.

[00:01:30]>> I'm going to follow the path of our ancestors.

[00:01:35]>> Oo, that's awesome. Do we know who would make a glyph like this in Utah County?

[00:01:39]Who would have done it?

[00:01:40]>> Yes. And that's kind of what I'm focusing on here at uh the Ancient America Foundation, my full-time job.

[00:01:46]>> Kind of building more awareness of the ancient peoples of Utah.

[00:01:50]>> And uh so you have like the archaic peoples.

[00:01:54]>> These are people from like 7,000 years ago.

[00:01:57]>> There are petroglyphs scattered around, especially on the on the west side of Utah Lake made by these people. And you can sometimes tell because when a petetroglyph starts getting filled in by sediment slowly coming back on top of it, you can tell it's really old.

[00:02:13]>> And so we found with some of those just a few days ago. And I guess somehow it evolved to around 180 to a,000 AD. In Utah, you get the Fremont people. Mhm.

[00:02:28]>> These are basically archaic people who started adopting maze agriculture from Esame America and so they started becoming a bit more um settled in their areas and then rock art starts exploding and so this is likely a Fremont rock art.

[00:02:46]>> So are these ancestors of the Shosonyi, ancestors of the utes?

[00:02:50]>> Uh yes and no. Not not necessarily directly. They were here before the big migration of the Numik speaking people from southern California around 1,200 AD migrated here into Utah >> and they became the Utes and the Shosonyi and the >> Pyutes and the goes >> and but they likely mixed with everyone.

[00:03:13]Also around 1200 AD is when the Navajo ancestors from Canada uh Alaska area started migrating into the Utah area. So you get all these cultures mixing together with the Fremont peoples.

[00:03:26]>> Yeah.

[00:03:26]>> But there aren't really any direct Fremont people. I think they've done tests on some Fremont burials and found them uh and tested them with like the Shosonyi and found them related.

[00:03:37]>> Okay.

[00:03:38]>> So what are other examples of petroglyphs like what we're going to go see today?

[00:03:43]>> Manti temple folklore. So in Manti, there's lots of folklore about these glyphs representing, you know, this is where Moroni was. This is where he pinpointed for the temple to be built.

[00:03:56]>> Wow.

[00:03:56]>> I imagine many of your viewers are going to be familiar with Latter-day Saints believing that Moroni was the one that dedicated the Manti Temple. We even used to have Moroni's statue there. You know, no Moroni on the temple itself, but the mortal Moroni.

[00:04:12]>> Was it Brigham Y Young who said that?

[00:04:14]>> Uh, no. Oh, but that's where the story comes from. The story is that Brigham Young said it.

[00:04:18]>> Okay. Okay.

[00:04:20]>> And uh >> makes sense.

[00:04:22]>> It's recorded well after the facts by someone else who, you know, third hand.

[00:04:27]But um beautiful story cuz it's the idea of, you know, Moroni traveling this land and pinpointing the sites.

[00:04:36]>> He had 40 years to travel. 36 or 40 years.

[00:04:39]>> Why not?

[00:04:40]>> And you could do a ton. you could be the Book of Mormon could have happened in at the southern tip of South America if you had that much time to travel, right?

[00:04:49]>> So that that's like an untold story. And what I kind of like about it cuz there are routes like trade routes that we know of from like Meso America into the Utah area. And so if more Moroni was traveling north, uh one logical route might have been one of these for him to take up here.

[00:05:07]>> Western mystery glyphs they call them, right? the one the big examples in Gunnison where Moroni's signature is written on the walls which is an M looks like a crown M. Um I think most people think these are modern but there's a a debate about it.

[00:05:25]>> Yeah. I mean you could see how people attribute a lot of special meaning to the to these things based on based on their beliefs and stuff. So, what are some of the harms that can come from reinterpreting petroglyphs like this?

[00:05:41]>> You know, I think one of the big issues is something you've mentioned before, which is erasing culture.

[00:05:48]>> Yeah.

[00:05:49]>> So, by misidentifying glyphs, by misidentifying uh pictographic writing, um I might be wiping out a whole story that might have meaning to an indigenous person.

[00:06:01]>> Yeah, that's why I want to go here. I I don't want to do that. Right. All the way back um when Aztec writings are getting put down, Aztec pictographic writings and cotices getting sent back to Europe.

[00:06:18]People are interpreting these drawings through their sacred worldview. And so we have texts that show that don't show but are interpreted as the battle between Cain and Abel with Eve standing in the distance with a talking serpent. Right? Well, maybe they did have access to this story. I don't know.

[00:06:41]>> But um the only way to interpret these stories would be revelation or oral tradition. I think the most important thing is that you and I don't step on an actual oral tradition that's preserving the story for a people and here I come out and start to circulate a story that replaces that one. That's how folklore works. But since it's not my culture, I I better I better be really careful.

[00:07:12]>> Yeah.

[00:07:12]>> The thing I'm really worried about petroglyphs though is vandalism.

[00:07:16]>> Yeah.

[00:07:16]>> We have so much so many petetroglyph sites. beautiful rock art that's been shot by jerks, right?

[00:07:25]>> Yeah. There's signs all over here about not shooting petetroglyphs. And even the signs have bullet bullet holes in it.

[00:07:31]And there's actually a bullet uh a gun range right where we're going. So, we got to be careful. But you'll see all these uh uh shotgun shells on the ground and stuff. And one reason I want to go here is to bring more awareness to this place because there are hundreds of petetroglyphs around here. And it's been in the news a lot of these things being damaged, even of bullets hitting people's homes. And then you've had vandalism and stuff like people painting I think I think there was an incident where people were painting Nazi signs over one of these glyphs.

[00:08:02]>> What is going on? Good golly. What are some of the other dangers just in general of Latter-day Saints taking Native American uh ideas or stories or or even um our own internal prophecies too far. Like, so for example, one of my friends, he said he vividly remembers being like a 12-year-old teenager and his dad taking him to southern Utah and all of the sudden he's having a sacrament meeting with a bunch of white guys in a in a teepee, >> telling stories about their their >> Oh, in this case, it's actual appropriation you're talking about, not just interpretation of something.

[00:08:42]>> Yeah.

[00:08:43]>> You know, a lot of times we're just voyers to stuff, but but there is this There I love the term that people coined a decade ago which was playing laymanite right based on Philip Delorea's book playing Indian but playing laymanite and in this case you you try to take on your interpretation of native culture and of course one you're putting yourself at a lot of risk because you're giving someone a lot of power right they're you're the consumer of this spiritual ual ideas. Um, and a lot of native spiritual stuff is wonderful and traditional and we've had many incidences where conmen, some native, some not native, have used native ideas to build what amounts to a cult. Right.

[00:09:34]>> Right. Yeah.

[00:09:34]>> Um, and it's that that makes us susceptible to that sort of thing.

[00:09:40]>> Where does all of this come from as far as Latter-day Saints? like why do we >> kind of have this affinity to Native Americans >> and and and especially like you your book you kind of point out how uh Latter- Day Saints also have uh or a lot of people have an affinity or something like that towards the last days, the final days, the second coming. How does that involve Latter-day Saints with connecting Native Americans? So, where does the kind of that all begin? So, I mean, of course, the Book of Mormon is the story of a protoamerican Indian, right? Uh, people coming from Jerusalem to the new world and they're building a civilization. And it's the story of this lost American civilization.

[00:10:27]We were given a commandment early on to bring the gospel to the Lammonites, right? The first mission of the church is to >> to bring bring the gospel to those who preserved it.

[00:10:39]And ultimately I think latter day still saints still have that idea. Um early on we are looking like we love the idea that there could be something sacred preserved within native culture. So just like if you and I went off to the holy land in Jerusalem >> Yeah.

[00:11:01]>> and we said this is where Christ was.

[00:11:04]Well then knowing where Moroni was is kind of awesome. knowing where Nephi lived, knowing where >> um >> all these things are, I think are are exciting. But there's also an idea that maybe there's something preserved that natives I mean it seems and I think this is more recent than to the dates of Joseph but that maybe natives have a natives have a spirituality a a a teaching that we could benefit from.

[00:11:41]>> Right. Hugh Nibbli is spotting, you know, he reads the book from Frank Waters called The Book of the Hopi. Here is a Euroamerican recording the ritual and esoteric teachings of the Hopi at a time in which certain members of the Hopi are very comfortable sharing it.

[00:12:01]They quickly become uncomfortable sharing it, but the cat's out of the bag at some level. And so, Nibbi shows up.

[00:12:09]He reads the book of the Hopi and says there's something about this that's uh that's seems to mirror the LDS endowment.

[00:12:19]>> Yes.

[00:12:20]>> Which means now we see the teachings of this community as if it's a corrupted version, maybe a corrupted version of truth of the gospel. And so that ties us to this um I think we've been repeating that around different communities all along, right?

[00:12:41]>> It's interesting. I don't I mean I think there might be something to that, but we better be really respectful in how we're engaging with it and that we're very clear when we're speculating.

[00:12:53]>> In your book, you you mentioned how they had a really strong idea of what motivated them was the second coming.

[00:13:00]Yeah, >> the final days, this apocalyp, but with the Native American connection, >> because I' like I've had people come to me and be like, "You guys are going to take over >> Zion when Jesus comes, right?"

[00:13:12]>> And uh I I guess I'm I'm young enough that I've never grown up with that. My parents never taught me stuff like that.

[00:13:20]>> 1877, so the year Brigham's going to die. Orson Hides or Orson Pratt's going to be one of the few remaining apostles from the original 1835. He gives a sermon that says, "You guys are forgetting how to interpret the Book of Mormon. It's a Native American thing, right? Like they they are going to do this last days work." Ultimately, um, Bighgam is insisting the New Jerusalem temple is going to be built by the church. You know, he gives talks that say, "Stop imaging angels are going to build it." But Orson Pratt says, "No, this is their job. We're going to assist them in the work." And so this sort of American Indian interpretation of the Book of Mormon, I think one is the plain reading of the text and I think it's uh it's one that we've always seen passed down. It's not one that everybody's been comfortable with. So Bruce Aroni didn't like it. Um most figures are merely uh just not talking about ignoring the interpretation. But when I read Third Nephi 16 and we read about the Gentiles rejecting the fullness of the gospel, gosh, I think about that moment in Nauvoo when Hebrew C. Kimell gets up and 1846 he says, "We're going to go to a place where no white man has stepped foot." like he is leaving the gentile world and he's trying to go to a place that's native where where he thinks the kingdom of God can be established.

[00:14:48]>> Interesting.

[00:14:48]>> Um and so yeah, I think it's very apocalyptic natives. One, they're they're portrayed a few different ways.

[00:14:56]Um the idea in 2 Nephi 3, there's a descendant of Joseph who is going to be um one mighty among the descendants of Joseph in the last days. Um Joseph son of Lehi and so who will do a great work among his people.

[00:15:18]This is a figure people sometimes talk about but usually people are just emphasizing um two ideas. won the mass conversion of natives who remember who they are just like ancient Joseph right reveals himself and you see oh he was his brother all the time he's the salvation of Israel but early Latter-day Saints and some modern Latterday Saints imagine that about native peoples they'll reveal themselves and they'll be the ones to build the new Jerusalem temple they'll be the ones to and there's all sorts of varieties of how to read that some people say oh I bet you the uh the headquarters of the church moves from Salt lake to Mexico City, you know. You've ever heard that?

[00:15:58]>> I've heard that. Yeah.

[00:15:59]>> Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's how it's going to happen.

[00:16:00]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:01]>> Maybe we'll have a general authority that comes up. Maybe >> how'd that start?

[00:16:05]>> Um, you know, people, it's this is just it's folklore. It's just something people started saying. Um, people play with the idea. We've had it in pop culture. Um Orson Scott Card did a great story called America in the early 80s about a great native nation that get started I think in Brazil um but unites the entire sort of panindian u group of people who then team up with the post-apocalyptic state of Desireette and together they work together. The white horse prophecy that's been popular is about the uniting between the white horse, the church and the red horse. I never I never connected that. Yeah.

[00:16:45]>> Yeah. And they're going to protect the Constitution together. So, usually it's this uniting of the two. Even section 87 about the remnants. Um all the story of the rising of native peoples. This >> we're getting on the dirt road by now.

[00:17:00]We're going to get bumpy. We're going to see how this camera handles this.

[00:17:03]>> Nice.

[00:17:08]>> There we go.

[00:17:10]>> Nice.

[00:17:12]Native Americans second coming their role it seemed bigger.

[00:17:16]>> I I definitely think it was I think Orson Pratt notices the decline in the 1870s and that's why he gets ups and speaks about it. But I think it was something that the church had and then we would go out and we try to focus on sharing the gospel with native peoples and we didn't have a lot of success and we we didn't have success. We pivoted. So, there's someone up there right now. Um, probably check it out. The There's a cave up here. Not big, but um and there's petetroglyphs. And I found one big one.

[00:17:56]And it's I mean, it's not like it's hidden or anything. This is actually pretty public area. So, anyone could come and look at it as long as they hopefully preserve it. And >> putting up a sign.

[00:18:09]>> Yeah. Maybe. Maybe they're actually preserving it or something.

[00:18:14]>> I didn't even realize the lake was right there. That's awesome.

[00:18:18]>> Yeah.

[00:18:19]Okay, so we are here. That's Utah Lake right there.

[00:18:23]>> Beautiful.

[00:18:24]>> And if you look in the book right here, like that's what we're looking for.

[00:18:30]>> Oh, I want to see that.

[00:18:31]>> But that's the Egyptian sundisk and stuff right there. So, he's making all these connections between what this guy is holding. And I think it's his staff and this right here. So, let's go look for it.

[00:18:41]>> Let's do it.

[00:18:42]>> So, it looks like this is the site, the sign they put back up.

[00:18:47]Shooters, no littering. Remove all targets and casings.

[00:18:52]The rock art in this area was made by natives up to several thousand years ago. It's irreplaceable. Don't shoot towards rock art.

[00:19:00]>> We showed up right when they put that up. That's awesome.

[00:19:02]>> Yeah. A fresh new sign without any bullet holes.

[00:19:06]>> Yeah. But look at that one. That would be fun to find. Dude, that's awesome.

[00:19:12]First, we're going to go up and I I have hiked straight up there, but I think there's actually a little trail. So, another reason I wanted to come here, Chris, is this is actually really close to a site of a massacre.

[00:19:33]>> Is it really? between Native Americans and Latterday Saints. It was part of the the Battle of Fort Utah.

[00:19:42]>> Oh, wow.

[00:19:43]>> Yeah. And so, you got it.

[00:19:49]Okay, we're good. Okay. So, down this way, Saints move in to Utah or Salt Lake. Two or three years later, they come into this area where there's the Tempogus tribe. Yeah.

[00:20:04]>> And quickly it all goes to crap pretty much.

[00:20:10]>> Relationship between them >> between the Timonogus and the uh pioneers and they have some pretty famous massacres over there on along the Provo River and in Rock Canyon.

[00:20:21]>> About to say I'm familiar with the Rock Canyon one.

[00:20:23]>> Dozens were killed there, but dozens retreated here of the Tempenogus people around here. And we got accounts of the pioneer army following them. And then they come around this o end over here and hide. But the army comes, holds them captive, and then suddenly they're all dead.

[00:20:43]>> And their bodies are all huddled together and suggested it was like a massacre.

[00:20:48]>> Wow.

[00:20:48]>> So it's it's a gruesome part of our history, but um I I like to share that because I think this place really needs to be preserved because of stuff like that.

[00:21:00]Like you got Mountain Meadows Massacre site that's preserved, right?

[00:21:03]>> Absolutely.

[00:21:04]>> So, let's go check out this over here.

[00:21:07]So, this first spot would be a uh just a little rock shelter. It's not really a cave, but it would be a place where people would come and camp and hang out cuz for the most part they were also hunter gatherers, right?

[00:21:24]>> Sure.

[00:21:24]>> So, they would be traveling between areas.

[00:21:27]They would have little spots they'd know of and this would probably protect them from the wind for a bit and give them a bit of protection. And you can see right here that there's all this kind of like black, >> what is that called?

[00:21:45]Soot or something like that >> from from thousands of years of fires.

[00:21:54]>> That's awesome. that people would have here.

[00:21:57]>> I want a picture of this beautiful place. So cool. Yeah. I imagine having a fire right here and looking out.

[00:22:08]>> Yeah. Just being able to see the valley and stuff.

[00:22:10]>> Awesome.

[00:22:10]>> Yeah.

[00:22:11]>> Gosh, >> this is a pretty place.

[00:22:14]>> So cool.

[00:22:16]So yeah, this is signs that people are using this spot and they're using it not occasionally like this is a >> over over centuries.

[00:22:24]>> This is a spot.

[00:22:27]So and the other thing that tells us that there's a spot is that there are petetroglyphs around here.

[00:22:33]>> Yeah.

[00:22:34]>> So let's go back down.

[00:22:35]>> Okay.

[00:22:36]>> And actually keep your eye open because I know where one specifically is, but you never know where others might be.

[00:22:43]Now, last time you saw snakes, but I'm not seeing any snakes tonight.

[00:22:46]>> I saw some pretty huge snakes on the opposite side of Utah Lake.

[00:22:52]>> Is that right?

[00:22:53]>> A huge gopher snake tried to attack me.

[00:22:56]>> Is that the video I saw? Did you get it footage?

[00:22:58]>> Yeah, I got footage of it.

[00:22:59]>> Oh, that's wild.

[00:23:00]>> That is a giant snake right there.

[00:23:06]Oh, sh. Yeah. Freaky. Here's some modern uh petetroglyphs.

[00:23:14]Here's another little shelter spot that might have worked out. So, something I want to bring to attention.

[00:23:20]>> What the hell, guys?

[00:23:21]>> Yeah, it better have been thrown that way.

[00:23:24]>> Um are these like you could see down there there's trash everywhere >> and stuff. And I just think this area needs to be preserved for these hundreds of petetroglyphs as well as the Native American Latter-day Saint battles that happened around here. Okay, let's make sure I don't forget where this is. Ah, look at it's right here.

[00:23:55]See that? Barely barely visible.

[00:24:00]man.

[00:24:01]>> Oh my goodness.

[00:24:02]>> So you could see the Egyptian the sundisk deed >> the person and he's got really long fingers the lotus head.

[00:24:15]And then over here that's a that's where the uh like an analopee or something is.

[00:24:20]>> Yes. Oh my god.

[00:24:21]>> And these weird symbols which I think the book connects to some Egyptian stuff. I don't know why, but when I see this pointed out that way >> as if it's like welcoming the sunlight from that direction, that feels significant to me.

[00:24:37]>> Other than that, >> I don't know.

[00:24:40]>> So, it could be a ceremonial figure.

[00:24:42]>> Well, so I am doing a video right now about the Fremont people.

[00:24:46]>> Yeah.

[00:24:46]>> And um whether this is Fremont or not, it does look might be older because you've got stuff building back inside of it. But with the Fremont at least, they're suggesting one theory is that instead of uh gods >> Mhm.

[00:25:02]>> or mythical beings, they might have portrayed heroes or leaders >> to kind of show your authority in a way, but it could also be depicting a story that they're familiar with in their own legends. So, why do we put our meanings onto this? I >> mean, whenever I look at art, I want to interpret it. Everyone, >> I want to see a story. And this is that's the thing about a pictoraph, right? You you literally can't interpret it without a guide to interpret it. That that's probably true of scripture itself, but particularly a symbol that has no narrative attached.

[00:25:38]>> You got to have that desire. And in this case, we have people who have left their homes sometimes on the other side of the sea.

[00:25:46]They've come out here and they want to find place here.

[00:25:50]>> It's just space. It's they have no way to interpret it. They have people here that they imagine want to do them harm, maybe maybe sometimes do competition.

[00:26:00]And by any sort of symbol, any structure, they're seeing culture.

[00:26:04]They're seeing something they can use.

[00:26:06]They're trying to make sense of a people that are around. In some cases, it seems like a people who have once been here and are gone, you know, >> like a lost civilization like what the Book of Mormon >> and Europeans are even doing that in England to their own ancestors, right?

[00:26:20]and they see megaliths and things >> trying to tell a story to make sense of the land around them. And for us, you know, you leave the land you knew, but now you're in a place where do you navigate this thing? And so, >> you develop stories and the stories, you know, the frame you have is Christianity. For Christian explorers that went to South America and and Mexico City and things, they're trying to use that to understand this people.

[00:26:49]And for us, it's the Book of Mormon. It gave us even a more direct way of trying to make sense of these individuals here.

[00:26:56]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:57]>> The problem comes in when I have this interpretation of this.

[00:27:01]>> I've developed myself based on my culture and the person who's descended from the one who writes this actually comes and tells me their meaning. I say, "No, come on, man." And that's when a problem can come shows a great deal of disrespect to to a culture and a people, >> right? Like in your book you said we were really involved in reinterpreting this stuff. Now it doesn't happen as much. Although it does happen maybe in in smaller groups and stuff, but what what's changed?

[00:27:27]>> But I think the big thing that changed >> was our society developed. You know, I I haven't been out here much. And so for me, this is a whole new world out here.

[00:27:37]I know the other side of the lake.

[00:27:39]>> Once I get away from the wild, I stop asking questions about what's actually built out here. So if we're spending less time in this this space, as we become more knowledgeable about it, when it's less a mystery, we stop trying to solve it. As we become more cautious as a people, >> we're we're kind of nervous. And usually religions when they get formed, they go through a period where they're full of change and new discoveries, and then we go through a period where we're a lot more cautious with it. It's more regulated. And quite possibly if I went out and did a video about this, you might do a response video and call me out, right?

[00:28:17]>> So all of that keeps us we start police each other more.

[00:28:20]>> Yeah. Well, I I like both >> cuz I I look at these things and I wonder and my imagination goes wild. The more information we have, the better we can kind of interpret some things like this.

[00:28:35]>> Yeah. But I like coming to places like this and being like, "Oh, this is a Fremont petroglyph that had meaning to them."

[00:28:42]>> I also think the Latter-day Saint meaning is interesting. I know it's not true, but just the whole culture and and people and themes behind that, that's what's fun about it all.

[00:28:52]>> Oh, you were so right.

[00:28:54]>> Well, so fun.

[00:28:55]>> Chris, thanks for coming with me on this.

[00:28:57]>> Thanks, brother. What an adventure.

[00:28:59]>> And we got to do more.

[00:29:00]>> I'd like You want to take me to any Patrick? I'm there.

[00:29:03]>> Yeah.

[00:29:03]>> Thanks for bringing me out here.

[00:29:04]>> Yep. Thanks, Chris. Let's head back down and not die.

[00:29:07]>> Let's do it.