60 Minutes Of Brutal Truths Every PEOPLE PLEASER Need TO Learn

追加: 2026-05-25

[00:00:00]If you can't sit with yourself, how can you expect anyone else to?

[00:00:05]>> This is where depression comes in. Could not sit in silence. Paula Williams is an award-winning therapist with over 25 years experience helping women unpat patterns that they did not even realize they were living in.

[00:00:18]>> Be really careful about how you speak to yourself. We would never talk to anyone the way that we talk to ourselves.

[00:00:26]Sometimes we begin to say no.

[00:00:30]We become empowered. What is the worst that can happen? So they don't like you.

[00:00:34]You're never going to see them again.

[00:00:35]Who cares? Really felt that I would have to constantly overtalk. When does the high achiever stop? When do we realize that actually I need downtime? What would it look like if you actually learned how to say no?

[00:00:54]In this episode, we break down why self-help books aren't working for you and the uncomfortable truth behind being a woman who is a high achiever or a people pleaser. But before we get into the conversation, if you could do me a huge, huge favor that will only take you a couple of minutes, subscribe to the podcast or leave a fivestar review on Spotify. It really helps us keep bringing you guests that help you to live a happier, healthier life. Thank you. Hi, I'm Paula and you're listening to Her Discussions podcast.

[00:01:25]>> Paula, the Herd community have sent in so many incredible questions about being a high achiever woman, your nervous system regulation, being a people pleaser, and falling into the same relationship patterns even after reading all the self-help books. But before we answer those extremely important questions, >> yeah, >> I would love to hear what was it that led you to this work in the first place from your personal experience?

[00:01:52]>> From my personal experience.

[00:01:54]>> Okay. So, if I really go back and think about myself, I was always that child that was really inquisitive. My mom would have to drag me along cuz I'd just sit and want to people watch all the time. So, I've always had a want of knowing what the world is doing and what people, you know, really trying to to figure out what's going on in someone's head. But personally, if I think about it, I started working in the NHS as as a secretary and then moved through to work in sexual health. One day I applied for a job, genital urine medicine. I didn't even know what it meant.

[00:02:35]and basically applied for the job, got the job and worked out that was sexual health. And in those days from diagnosis to death with HIV was only 5 years.

[00:02:46]>> Gosh.

[00:02:46]>> And so a lot has changed now. So it was incredible to see how the mother and baby unit came out of that cuz in those days it was really just homosexual men that were being, you know, targeted by by this disease. But what was really interesting was that they would have an aroma therapist who would come in and help with pain management and you'd have the side effects of all these drug regimes and at the bottom there'd be death. It'd be like, you know, wow. So I'd often sit with the counselors and the health advisors and just watch the I'd always think that there was like two kinds of people that would come in. one when they were told their diagnosis would cash in their life policies and go and live on forever and then there were those that would die quite quickly. So it made me think about mindset but also coming back to the aroma therapist they would come in and help with pain management and I was just knocked out by the how non-invasive touch was really important for the way how someone felt.

[00:03:52]So time went on. I left that job and went away to uh the West Indies. That's where my family's from. And was out there for about a year. And when I came back, I couldn't work because I found it so difficult to to work into the the everyday humrum way of 9 to5. It just didn't suit me anymore. Being able to see someone that could go to the shop and buy one egg and a cup of oil was it just changed my perspective on everything and and what I was grateful for and I thought what do I want to do?

[00:04:25]So I retrained and became an aromatherapist reflexologist and thought I want to use this in a therapeutic way.

[00:04:33]So I went and did a pitch to the alcohol services and said look let me teach your clients how to relax without drink.

[00:04:41]let's put some nutritional advice in there because I I was really interested in in psychonutrition as well as what nutrition did for the body. So did that got the uh contract for where I was the area that I was working in. And what I fi found that was so amazing was that when people don't speak, it comes through the body.

[00:05:04]And also I learned so much from working in drugs and alcohol looking at what it was used for and when you you know you can take it away but then what's left and usually there's there's pain or trauma underneath that. So I worked with the women that sell sex. I did lots and lots of things and what I was finding that was happening was that um people would just talk to me and I felt I didn't have the the kind of capabilities of being able to to to take that further. So I went and retrained. Now that is the professional way that I'd say that in my and what I say that is that was a journey but there was also a personal journey that was underneath that at that time when I went to retrain I became a single parent my mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer I lost the building that we're in got condemned so everything was breaking down around me but also it it gave me the the real want to to con continue on So in my own lived experience, I was able to to draw from that. I don't think I would have ever gone into therapy if I didn't become a psychotherapist. And that was the last thing cuz we all had to to to go into therapy, but I was one of the last ones.

[00:06:29]It was like I was putting it off, putting it off. But eventually I did and then ended up doing like six years of therapy to really look at what my patterns are, what I put into hierarchy, that sort of thing. So I really got to know cuz to sit in this chair is a real privilege. Therapists we can sit in a place of you know the expert but really what I try to do is is sit alongside my my clients and really try to see behind their eyes see what it is that's causing them distress and try to to understand from that perspective. But really that that was my journey.

[00:07:06]That was long.

[00:07:07]>> Yeah. No, it very it's so like it's so interesting because I think the the coming to a point of being a therapist is it's quite for a lot of people I think they would think God why would you want to sit and hear about people's struggles all day every day. So that must be so so so challenging and difficult but to other people it's a really attractive profession.

[00:07:30]>> Yeah. I think I've always been a rescuer and most of us that sit in the in this position start off as as a rescuer trying to rescue ourselves through others.

[00:07:39]>> Like the wounded healer.

[00:07:41]>> Yeah, the wounded healer. Absolutely.

[00:07:43]And as I say, it just fascinated me and I had I was that person that would sit on the bus and that person would tell me their whole life story or the tube or you know and as well I think I'm quite nosy as well.

[00:07:57]But I really do enjoy my job. But I've got ill through it as well because it is a lot like you say listening to people's trauma day in day out. And I do or have done high-end trauma, child sexual abuse and um domestic violence and all of that. And when you are listening to that, you really have to make sure that you you have some kind of protection. We call that vicarious trauma. you can you you might not go through it but when you hear it you can it you can feel that pain and being able to to make sure that you are protecting yourself. So you know I have had times where I've burnt out because again I'm one of those women that will keep going and going and going. So through my own experience I've learned how to eat well. I'm a real advocator of nutrition definitely because if you was to come into my um therapy room, I would ask you how many cups of coffee you drinking or how do you relax? Cuz I still use my aromatherapy oils. I will teach people how to relax cuz a lot of us don't know.

[00:09:07]Yeah, >> we're constantly living by, you know, artificial light or deadlines and how do we continue on and on and on and we see it as a weakness if we don't leave when when we say 9 to5 and you leave at 5:00.

[00:09:23]It's looked upon, hang on a minute, you're going out the door at 5:00, why are you not giving us more hours or I should be doing that? So, I've learned as well. I often say that I'm the method actor for therapist.

[00:09:36]You've lived you've lived it all.

[00:09:38]>> I've lived it. I have lived Yeah. I've lived lots of things. But at the same time, I'm very aware that my experience might not be your experience. So I have to really understand that I'm not driving the session. It has to be at your pace.

[00:09:51]>> I think a lot of the audience are high achiever gies. So we will come on to the psychology behind the high achiever, the strong independent woman, as well as those patterns that they might fall into in relationships. But first, I wanted to hear what your definition of trauma is.

[00:10:08]>> My definition of trauma. Okay. Wow.

[00:10:14]Trauma often has no words. So, it's something that is learned by the body, the nervous system, because often when we think about trauma, it can start really early on, and that's preverbal.

[00:10:29]So we don't know what the word is. And I I think a lot of um people couldn't recognize that if something happens in their relationship, for example, they're arguing and their partner storms off.

[00:10:44]All right. Okay. That might be seen as rejection and you know the the overwhelming feeling of that. So trauma is how how the body reacts. It's it's a feeling. It's a sensation. And sometimes there are no words to that. And I always say that trauma is, you know, we often think of it as as something big, but pain, the pain, if it's painful to you, then it's your your trauma.

[00:11:12]>> Before the episode get got started, and I think I'll insert the clip um just after this, we were talking. It almost felt like you were a mind readader because she explained this archetype around high achievers, hyperindependent women, and almost felt like you were telling my life story. So many women out there that are high functioning, really intellectual, and yet when you look at when you're actually looking at their rel relationship, it's a different story. And why is that? And often the the issue there is that yes, we've done all the self-help, we've listened to the podcast, we've got the book cognitively, we know what's going on, but how do we allow that to to land internally and how do we do something different? All right.

[00:12:04]Okay. So, I know this, but I keep faces change, keep doing the same thing. So what's happening here is that the nervous system recognizes something. And when the nervous system and the body recognizes something, that usually tells us that there is something that's happened along in in our past, in our childhood. And that might may be that you've learned early on that you are the one that has to be independent that has to be the caregiver to look after the siblings because the first the caregivers were not there. So this builds this whole thing of independence and resilience. And then because perhaps your caregivers have not been there, you seek out that first love relationship of not being able to communicate because there's no communication.

[00:13:03]>> You're personally attacked. Thinking about what you were saying in that clip, would you say that maybe some of those experiences where the reason that I'm a very determined, hyper independent person, woman rather than having issues with addiction is because that my parents unconditionally loved me and supported me. But would you say that maybe those times where I came out of school and you know my parents forgot to pick me up.

[00:13:33]Would you describe those experiences as traumatic?

[00:13:38]>> Can be felt as traumatic, but also survival. You learn really quickly to think on your feet, right? So, I would say those are survival techniques. Okay.

[00:13:49]Yes, it could be trauma, but it might be felt if your partner didn't turn up on time. You might have a reaction to that because but a reaction that's too big and that might be steep somewhere there.

[00:14:03]Do you see? Do you see what I mean? But your strengths are also your weaknesses.

[00:14:07]So we've got to find a balance in that.

[00:14:09]So so those those strengths that you talk about, you know, the high achiever and all of that started as survival techniques and then as we grow it turns into something else. But then if we don't watch that, it can then turn into something else because when does the high achiever stop?

[00:14:29]When do we realize that actually, you know, I need downtime?

[00:14:34]Is it the fact that your pain threshold is so huge that you don't know when burnout's coming? Do you do you see what I mean in all of that?

[00:14:44]>> It's so interesting. But the the whole thing around all of this, as I always say to my clients when when I come in, I don't want to overanalyze.

[00:14:54]What I want us to do is be curious about the patterns that are showing up and really understand and have compassion for that cuz that part not not have any anger because often we get angry at ourselves if we're anxious. Why am I so anxious? Why do I behave like this? But really let's ask the question why and where does it come from? And when we start doing that then we can bring compassion into the shame that we might feel that that is centered around that you know >> because just let me add there there's something that you said about you know the reason why you're a high achiever. I often say about addictions. All right if I could kind of go in there. So, we're either chemical or behavioral workaholic >> or both.

[00:15:41]>> Yeah. Or or because it's doing something, it's regulating the nervous system.

[00:15:47]>> Yeah.

[00:15:48]>> Right.

[00:15:50]>> Yeah.

[00:15:51]>> You know, and then when we take it away, and we look at what's underneath, you know, I'm definitely the the workaholic.

[00:15:58]>> Yeah.

[00:15:59]>> You know, or the person that used to fill in space. I could not sit in silence. I really felt that I would have to constantly overt talk you know but as I said my therapy has shown me you know shown me has helped me to really learn about who I really am you know >> yeah I really really really struggle with my brain being empty because I think what am I running away from and yeah you're right >> that maybe it might not be drugs and alcohol but doing work is a distraction in itself. Yeah, definitely.

[00:16:32]>> I'm really excited to talk to you about um the different relationship patterns as well that people fall into. But first, we're going to come on to a section called buyback because every time you look on the TV or social media, it feels as though >> there is a new product, a new trend that is being pushed and I'm sure a lot of the audience feel like they're doing a lot of the mental work. Yeah. in terms of therapy, understanding their own brain, journaling, but actually still feeling stuck in the same patterns. So, this section is aimed to try and cut through those trends and that noise.

[00:17:07]They're a bit crumpled.

[00:17:10]Online therapy, would you buy or say bye-bye to this? See, this is where it always it can work.

[00:17:20]But if the if it's the first time you're going into therapy, I would say sit in a room with someone.

[00:17:26]>> Why is that?

[00:17:27]>> Because I'm a relationalist and I feel that h being able to have the energy of someone sitting with you is far different than than a screen. you can still get, you know, a good results of that. But if it's your first time and you've had issues with relationships, then let's really create a really positive relationship that is seen and felt with your therapist.

[00:17:55]>> Nice manifestation practices.

[00:18:00]>> Keep them, but know what you're doing.

[00:18:05]>> Okay. What What do you mean by know what you're doing? What I mean is that um there is a whole process around manifestation.

[00:18:14]See it, feel it, smell it, really make it make it real. And just by really really making it come alive and and not kind of setting your sights on something that that you feel is too far in the the future or it's just seems so far away.

[00:18:36]practice it and start with something small.

[00:18:39]>> Nice healing girl era content.

[00:18:41]>> Now I'm going to ask you what that means.

[00:18:43]>> Okay. Personally, I would my perception of it is making wellness and making healing more of a trend that is matched with aesthetically pleasing journals, a morning matcher, positive affirmations, a lot of self-help books. When I look at healing girl era content, it almost makes healing visually appealing.

[00:19:12]>> Yes. Yeah. I I I understand what you mean there.

[00:19:16]Okay.

[00:19:18]There are tools that we can use. Okay.

[00:19:22]But what is healing? You know, healing is quieter. It's slower. It's something that's really individual to the person.

[00:19:31]And we don't need things to do that for.

[00:19:34]I think what what we really need to do is to stop and and really in really start listening to what's going on inside us cuz you can have all of these things and all of this money that you've spent, but has it made a difference? So finding that person, oh, I'm a therapist. I'm going to say that you're But it doesn't have to be a therapist.

[00:19:57]It can be your partner or it can be someone that's really trusted that you can start bouncing ideas off. I often say find your tribe. It's so important to find your tribe and you know the people that are like-minded like you that that maybe have the same struggles that you can all bounce off each other.

[00:20:16]So things some but nice positive affirmations. I love a positive affirmation.

[00:20:28]>> Yes, I do. I'd say keep it because I think it's a great way to start your day. And also sometimes we we don't we're not positive with ourselves. But again, I'd say it's how you do it.

[00:20:42]>> Okay?

[00:20:43]>> And the way I say how you do it is being able to really mirror use it in the mirror and look into your eyes. How many people do not they look at them in the mirror to make sure they don't look like a piece of can I say [ __ ] basically?

[00:20:56]>> Yeah, you can. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:20:59]>> You know, they'll look outside but they're not actually looking in their eyes to really see themselves. So, yeah, that's how I'd say look in your eyes.

[00:21:08]>> Nice. Is there a wrong way to do positive affirmations?

[00:21:12]>> If you're just doing it from up here cognitively, I want you to feel it. Feel it in your heart. You know, if we think about it, whenever anyone says something positive to us, we we tend to brush it away or we I often say to my clients, you let it fall on the floor and you step on it. Let's do it a different way.

[00:21:31]When someone gives you something positive, take it, even if it feels uncomfortable, and place it in your heart because we're so good at taking the negative and ruminating over it over and over and over again. So with a positive affirmation, just be present and let it flood your whole body.

[00:21:50]>> Nice nervous system tools like breath work.

[00:21:55]>> 100% most definitely keep that. Breath work is so important, you know. Um and it it it does regulate the the nervous system. I use it a lot for myself and I also use it in my therapy room. breath work, visualization, calming techniques. Yeah, keep that one.

[00:22:16]>> Do you have a favorite breath work exercise?

[00:22:18]>> No, I'm very spontaneous in the way that I do things.

[00:22:22]>> And it really it depends on who's who's with me and meeting that person where they are. But just knowing um how to abdominal breathe is because if we look at the baby, right, the baby breathes from their tummy always. and what happens through trauma or upset we brief that. So really teaching people to abdominal breathe and then whatever visualization that I feel that's going to work with them you know I I will use I don't really stick to to any kind of I'm not really prescriptive. I'm a therapist that will really try and work with whoever is in in the room with me.

[00:23:00]That's really interesting because number one, I I really hate square breathing, but I found some really good breathing techniques that I really like. Like we had someone do the double H, which really like that like a two big deep breaths and then a long exhale. Tummy breathing. Absolutely. Those really work for me, but I really don't like square breathing, but some people do. Really interestingly, >> my fiance literally the other day I was sat and I didn't realize it myself and he just says to me, "Fa, you're breathing really quickly." And suddenly I did notice and just having that moment I don't know to to check in on myself.

[00:23:33]It was really really helpful. But it was interesting how how much we don't realize.

[00:23:39]>> Oh absolutely. And there's something that you've just said there about checking in with yourself. Often we just roll out of bed and just have a morning routine. You'd never go into a meeting if you was not ready. You would, you know, you'd make sure everything was in order. the the actual morning routine I often say is before you get out of bed just do a quick body scan. How am I feeling? How am I breathing? Am I carrying any anxiety? Where is it? Do I need to feel anxious today? So, what you're doing is being really curious.

[00:24:12]You know, my morning routine is very much um I will do that, but I'll also meditate for about 10 minutes. And I don't allow my clients to come into my head yet. So if they do, I send them out my little door because that and then I'll jump in the shower. I've got a visualization that I'll do do in the shower and then really have a slow routine. And the only time that once I put my key through my office door, that's when I allow everything to come in. But I really protect that space. It was not always like that. That's something that I I've really learned.

[00:24:47]And and I also have a closed down routine, you know, packing things away visually in my mind and, you know, putting all my notes away. And then in when I'm in my car, sometimes I don't even put the radio or music cuz I need silence or I will just play my music on the way home. When I get home, then I upstairs, shower, take the day off, and then I can be another part of myself >> cuz I'm at home now. I really could have used with that this advice when I was working 12 hour shifts in the NHS because I really really really struggled with that coming home and turning off.

[00:25:27]>> Yeah.

[00:25:27]>> Now probably >> I struggle with it in a different way where work is never off because work is home. So I really struggle with being at home and not feeling this pressure on myself to keep being productive, keep going. What advice would you have for both women who have that physical environmental change between work and but they're struggling to shut down but also especially in postcoid era where so many more women work from home if if they're self-employed but they also can't shut down.

[00:26:03]>> Yeah. boundaries and really just taking the time to sit down and first of all you've got to notice you got to notice that you're doing all of that you're overworked and a lot of um high achieving women when they come in to see me it's because they're burnt out and they're not being able to juggle the million and things one what what is they're dropping the balls so what I would say is first of all we stop and then we literally create a plan together like I said to you. All right. Okay.

[00:26:35]Even if you're working from home, when you put your tools down, go and water is so important. Oh, water changes the way that you feel. So be and it washes the day away. So I use water a lot. So it's like go and have a shower, change your clothes, go for a walk around the garden at the end because it's so good to be able to just be be in green. That's another calming effect.

[00:26:58]But you know, I can say all of this, but this is going you should be doing this.

[00:27:04]Okay. What we do is we notice you notice the rhetoric that's going on. But what happens is that we often think there's only one part of us that floods the system. But we have so many different parts to us. But the other part that needs to come into that while the mind is going like that is the other part that's got to say it's okay to stop work.

[00:27:27]>> Yeah. What I usually say to to a lot of my clients, if you kept using your mobile phone, it would run out of battery. So, you need to recharge. And if that means that you diorize some time in the diary, it could be half an hour, an hour, whatever, or even ju just to sit and have that cup of tea, allow yourself. But it's gentle movements first of all, you know, and thinking about what your needs are. A lot of women don't even know what their needs are. they will go shopping and when you look in that trolley there's not one thing in there for themselves. It's what everybody else wants to eat, you know, or and often someone might say to me, a woman might say to me, "But Paul, I haven't got the money to do that." And I said, "Well, if you needed to find that money for your child or your husband, because I'm a real advocate for people having massages, let's divide that by four once a month. What are you actually paying yourself?" So I try to help people look at things from a different perspective. So the answer to your question is stop, slow down, look at what you would really want to achieve.

[00:28:36]How would you want your life to be and see if we can kind of put in those little micro movements in there for for you?

[00:28:45]>> And that really nicely brings me on to probably the most important question that I have for you. It's a dilemma that I have faced a lot probably over the last 5 years and I have got a lot better at addressing it.

[00:28:58]>> But this fear that if that voice in my head that is telling me to keep going is turned off and I give myself space to relax then I won't achieve the goals.

[00:29:11]And there is there is that fear you know last night I was traveling and I got home and I was absolutely exhausted and I said to my fiance I said right we are getting a takeaway we are watching a Netflix series I'm not thinking about unpacking my bag I feel exhausted I'm giving myself this time to rest which FA 5 years ago would absolutely have not given myself permission to do. I ended up falling asleep at 6 p.m. and waking up this morning at 8.

[00:29:37]>> Wow. He's just a full like absolutely whacked out. I woke up this morning feeling so much more refreshed, but FA 5 years ago would have got back and said, "FA, you have a podcast tomorrow. You need to be go through all the notes."

[00:29:51]And this morning I went through all the notes and I was, you know, fine. How do you navigate that for the women who still want to achieve?

[00:29:57]>> Okay, so awareness is is the first stage of change. You're in it. you're aware that you've still got this this voice that we've got to have compassion for because that that part of you it was created a long time ago. So that and probably way way back in in childhood if we can think about that and it's probably really exhausted and scared that if it does drop the balls, oh my god, you won't be able to achieve. But has that ever really happened?

[00:30:30]>> Do you know what it has? But when I've been burnt out.

[00:30:33]>> Right. Okay. Right. So it's it's got the memory of you when you were burn burnt out. But that was then and not now. All right. Cuz that was really key what you says it has. But it was when I was burnt out. All right. So I want you to recognize the voice that part of you.

[00:30:52]When I think back, it's it's been >> periods where I've been burnt out where my motivation has been completely on the floor where I just had this constant need to relax and I did not have any motivation to achieve >> anything. I had to reset my A levels to get my grades for medical school. When I look back, that is what I think of where I had just >> really Yeah. I was just burning the candle at all the ends and then it just almost like flatlined.

[00:31:17]>> All right. Okay. Wonderful that you recognize where it comes from because that's what I would do with you. Where does it come from? I'll take you back to where it has. And what's happening is that that that memory is still there every time. Because feelings only know feelings. They don't know situations.

[00:31:35]And what I mean by that is that whenever you get the feeling of, oh, I'm going to drop the balls, it will take you back to that memory, draw it forward, and it will just, you know, the fight begins.

[00:31:48]You did something different, which is I'm gonna watch Netflix and have a takeaway. But it was an almighty fight, but you did it. So now, as time goes on, I just want you to to know that there is that part of you, but there are other parts and the part that the the real self energy, the real reflective part of you came into play that you know yesterday and challenge that part. Often we don't challenge the part. So when we are present in in hearing our thoughts, we then can have the strength to challenge.

[00:32:23]>> That's really helpful. I think women especially are very good or bad at this depending on how you look at it.

[00:32:30]>> Women are very good at analyzing their thoughts, their behaviors, reflecting, but still often end up in the same situations. So, we spoke a little bit about how, you know, a woman might understand why she makes her these decisions. She's almost therapized herself.

[00:32:50]>> Yeah.

[00:32:50]>> But she still ends up in the same patterns, for example, like in relationships.

[00:32:55]>> Yeah.

[00:32:55]>> Why do why does this happen?

[00:32:58]>> Faces change, but we keep doing the same things. Why does it happen? Because it feels familiar to the body. All right. cognitively we know but there was no language or um the availability when this started in the nervous system and so it was like the other day what was I watching love is blind okay and on that there was one contestant who had two guys I can't remember her name that were vying for one who had his heart on his sleeve really really open and poetic and all of that stuff and the other one was quite cold. But she said something that was key. She said the one that was cold. She said, "That's my type of guy that I usually go for." And I had my cushion up and say, "Please don't do cuz I knew that her nervous system was going to go for that guy because the other one she wasn't used to." Right. So, so said so done and she went and chose him and of course it didn't end right. And it that is a key example of of knowing actually it just felt familiar to her body. Familiar doesn't mean it's right for you. And so this is where I would say slow down a bit because the red flags where are they're there already.

[00:34:16]Your your body tells you. Your body tells you before your head does. And we're animals at the end of the day, aren't we? You know, we can go into a situation and we just don't feel comfortable, but we brush it away. You know, I had a client in the other day and and she'd been through her real traumatic experience in a relationship and I we we were going back and I said, "Let's go back to the first time that you actually met this this guy." And she was telling me about that. Yes, he he I met him at my house and and in the first kiss my body just just jolted back and she said, "Well, I I I really put it down to all my you know, I wasn't ready for the relationship." I said, "That's really interesting that your body did not even want to to go forward for that kiss." And then it was a really um controlling, coercive relationship, you know, and and it ended great. But it was so interesting when we were actually tapping back to see where why what the body was doing cuz I'm so interested in how the body reacts really really is so interesting.

[00:35:28]>> And would you say that we can always trust our body or would you say there are situations where if you were speaking out on a big big big stage your body would probably feel uncomfortable but it still might be the best.

[00:35:40]>> Yeah. Yeah. Right. Okay. There is a real difference with sit sitting in the the the uncomfortable to push you forward.

[00:35:48]But if a reaction is really too big for the situation, I always say about anxiety, there's there's kind of two types of anxiety. One we absolutely have to have. It's what we call the motivator. It's got legs on it. I don't want to go to that interview. I don't want to do this podcast, but but I'm going to sit in the uncomfortable and and then it dissipates. It usually goes away. But if it's too big for the situation and it's full of fear, it's debilitating, then we know that it's something that's steeped from the pl past. But the only way that we can start learning this is through cuz I use a lot of I believe in education. Psycho education is key. I don't cake gatekeep anything, you know.

[00:36:31]I think it's really important for us to know. And so the first stage is really you know understanding your patterns and then you will know whether to trust or not because at the beginning you you don't trust anything at the beginning that's why you may have come into therapy or you're reading your self-help books. So once you start learning about yourself then you can begin to to trust trust yourself and your body and not give a damn about what people say. But um there's a process to all of that. But knowing I really want everyone out there to know that anxiety is normal, but the right type of anxiety is it is it the one that's going to dissipate and want to jump into the situation?

[00:37:17]>> Yeah. I'm going to come on to some community questions. What are the most common protective roles you see women stuck in?

[00:37:25]>> I've got to be strong.

[00:37:27]>> Okay. I've got to people please because if everybody is is okay then I can relax. Often it doesn't happen like that. I've got to be Miss Ultra organizer. Everything's got to be in in such a structure. But what happens when that structure breaks down? So what I would do with someone is teach them to to let the structure bend. So it's just like the tree when the branch we can move with it because if you've got a structure or that's too rigid when it bends you unravel. So I'd say definitely to be everything for everybody.

[00:38:09]You know if we think about how society is women carry a lot or expected to carry a lot you know to actually be great at your job bring up the children look after the home. Wow. How you know and and also be the nurse.

[00:38:31]You know, there are and I could add to that list. There's so much out there that that is expected of us, but really what I would say to anyone that is juggling all of the again is my thing is let's stop for a moment. What is the worst that could happen if we did drop one of those balls? What would that look like? What would it look like if you actually learned how to say no?

[00:39:00]So, so would you because my next question was going to be how do we get out of these these protectors, but would that be where you'd start? So, imagining what will actually happen >> if and facing up to that.

[00:39:13]>> Yeah.

[00:39:14]>> So, I suppose people pleasing part would be a a common situation I think a lot of women will resonate with.

[00:39:22]>> These people that you're pleasing, are they paying your bills?

[00:39:27]I just start throwing things out and and who are you pleasing?

[00:39:30]>> Yeah.

[00:39:31]>> And what are you gaining from this >> and what does you know it's it's all about questioning with curiosity. That's what I always say. And getting someone to think about what is it that you're actually doing and how much time is it taking? What I always say there's there's the circle of trust, right?

[00:39:49]Who's in your circle of trust? Of course, you're going to want to please them. And then it gets >> What does your circle of trust mean? A circle of trust is who's got your back.

[00:39:58]>> Yeah.

[00:39:59]>> Who's in there for love? Who is balanced in this in in a relationship? Who gives and you give? Your circle of trust. Who can you rely on? Okay. Of those are the people that you probably want want to please, but maybe not all of the time.

[00:40:13]And then if we then go keep going out in the circles, where do you place those other people? And when we can have a visual view of that, we can think, well, why am I pleasing that person? What am I getting back from that? And and I think really women are taught to be really selfless. And often I say this should start with the first relationship, okay?

[00:40:38]And that's where I how I um use my therapy. The first relationship is with self. Now, if we don't don't get that right because our relationships outside of that or with the environment are are not great because if you don't treat yourself well, that resonates out and you can get that back. So, looking at being questioning with curiosity, wise, teaching how to say no. Have I got the energy?

[00:41:13]Do I have the capacity and the energy to be able to do what this person has asked me to do? Often someone may ask you, "Oh, can you do X, Y, and Z?" And you say, "Yes." You don't even think. I teach people to slow down and say, "Hold on a minute. Can I get back to you? Let me check my diary." Or, "Yes, I can do it, but not on that day."

[00:41:35]Or, "No, I can't do it. I'm really sorry." And when we begin to say no, we become empowered. It's not what the what we expect that the whole world's going to hate me, you know. So, it's it's trying to break a pattern that was there for a long time.

[00:41:54]And knowing now that you are not that little girl anymore that needs to to make sure that everyone's okay because your house was so chaotic or you know if everyone's all right then I can relax that you are a grown-up but these parts of us are still really present. you know, little FA's gonna come along, little Paula is going to come along, but and be be the mini parent, but actually she doesn't need to do that anymore. She needs to go off and play. So, she can still be there. We want all our parts there. We don't want to be hating them, but we want to recognize what what they need and feed their needs.

[00:42:33]>> Why do you think women especially struggle with being people pleasers?

[00:42:36]>> It's almost expected of them, isn't it?

[00:42:39]>> Yeah, really. It's like you know that is something that I should be doing but is it really please yourself before you please others?

[00:42:52]>> Yeah. you know, and there is something about, oh, this whole thing of of being subservient or, you know, I've got to be a certain way. But no, be be true to yourself. But how do we get to the point of being true to oursel? How do we get return to to self?

[00:43:16]>> Yeah. Tell me more about return to self.

[00:43:20]All right.

[00:43:20]>> What does that mean? You were never lost. First of all, let me say that.

[00:43:23]You're always there. But what's happened over time, experiences, environments that you've been in, you've unconsciously learned how to survive through patterns.

[00:43:34]So, what I would say is that we look at those patterns and we just start moving them away and we uncover who you really are, the strength of you, the power within you when you actually do not give a damn what people say.

[00:43:51]because you know that you can trust yourself. But yes, okay, you're in your circle of of trust. You can have someone that you can bounce the ideas off cuz we all need that, you know, but being able to come back to to self because there was all this other stuff that was placed on top. So being your real authentic you, the part of you that stands in S energy, self energy that can observe, that can own when they have done something wrong, that actually can say I don't like that. Can I stand alone whilst amongst others without collapsing into compliance? I can still have my own ideas. Just because you think that doesn't mean I have to agree with you.

[00:44:37]And it doesn't matter if I'm going to stand on my own with that opinion because I am sure of that opinion.

[00:44:45]>> I would say I've got a lot better at being more apologetically myself.

[00:44:51]>> Okay. Mhm.

[00:44:52]>> However, two weeks ago I was on a brand trip in Marrakesh and it was really really lovely and I was with one of my very close friends called M. Now M has a social media page that is basically dedicated to deinfluencing.

[00:45:07]She doesn't agree with a lot of influencer practices and she makes it very very very well known. Okay. And we were on a trip with a bunch of influencers because she is a content creator herself but she >> doesn't agree with a lot of the a lot of things that happen in that industry. and she was unapologetically speaking her opinions amongst this group of you know people who but she was doing it in a polite way and it made me feel so deeply uncomfortable because even though M was saying a lot of things I agree with in my head I was thinking m shut up please shut up stop rocking the boat you'll probably you know you're saying a lot of things other people will disagree with and it made me reflect a lot on how I think I've come so far in being unapologetically myself or expressing what my personal views are.

[00:46:06]But actually, there is still that part of me that is trying to bend >> to what other people accept. Look, that's okay. You notice that part uh with compassion because that part had a role that again is probably quite old. And you know when you when you notice that and you can see how uncomfortable cuz the system you're not used to rocking the boat. I don't want to rock the boat. What does it mean if I rock the boat? The panic that's there. But what you do is there's another part of you, the self energy that can come in and say it's okay cuz it was okay. What was the worst that could happen?

[00:46:45]>> Yeah.

[00:46:45]>> And that's one thing that I love to use.

[00:46:48]What is the worst that can happen? Yeah.

[00:46:50]>> So they don't like you. You're never going to see them again. Who cares? This is an extremely enlightening conversation for me and I'm really sorry for the community because I've gone a little bit off tangent. I know there are community questions I am going to come on to but for me I am actually I'm very willing to rock the boat if someone has come for me. If someone has come for me >> protected >> I I will absolutely disagree with that person. I will not back down.

[00:47:15]>> So I am very good at rocking the boat if someone's already started rocking it.

[00:47:20]Before that I still would like to be liked. Yeah, >> I notice that in myself. Can be very argumentative, >> but only if someone has done something that comes for me first.

[00:47:31]>> Comes for you first.

[00:47:31]>> Yeah. Which Yeah, that's really >> So it's almost as though that that part of you wants to protect the people that you love.

[00:47:39]>> Okay.

[00:47:39]>> Yeah, that's what it sounds like to me in that. But you know, how do you feel about that part? I really like the part of me when I get quite argumentative and get quite strong willed and strong opinion, you know, express my opinions.

[00:47:53]It's sometimes afterwards maybe there's occasionally afterwards I feel like a hangover of >> so then there there's another part that comes in and said did you do right there questioning yeah that's >> did I overreact did I overact I think that's it sometimes if someone says something to me I immediately get quite argumentative and then maybe a day later two days later feel a little bit anxious that I've overreacted. Well, what I'd say to you is instead of using the word argumentative, >> just reframe that word because it is about your passion.

[00:48:28]>> Yeah, >> it's about what you feel is is right or resonates for you. The word arguments puts a different language is really important. So, if you take away the word argument, it might land a little bit different.

[00:48:41]>> I was a very talkative child, very yep, yep, yep. And someone said something to me recently where they said that I was a lot and it really really really like triggered me and it made me think about you know probably past FA who'd been told to be quiet who'd been told to not talk as be as talkative. So I yeah this is me doing some live real time reflection but I feel as though that reframing of I have a narrative in my head that I'm too much I'm too talkative I'm too loud I'm too opinionated I'm too argumentative >> okay >> and maybe that is what >> yeah let let me just add to that right most of us all right have been brought up to do as you're told believe what pe people say and be respectful right is that not true okay so when the child hears something. This is this is what works so with bullying or abusers. Okay?

[00:49:41]So when the child hears something or you know they tend to believe it cuz that's their world. Okay? So if we think about the bully let's just say okay you go to school constantly being bullied. Those words are being placed inside you. Okay.

[00:49:56]They go away and then what happens? you become the bully or you become the perpetrator because you systematically hearing that. So that person that triggered you like you said it's almost like just because they say something doesn't mean it's true.

[00:50:15]>> Yeah.

[00:50:16]>> And I really want people to to see that because and also the fact of be really careful about how you speak to yourself.

[00:50:25]I think, you know, we would never talk to anyone the way that we talk to ourselves sometimes. You know, the derogatory name calling, the getting angry, the having no patience, but yet with everybody else, you're so kind, you know. No. So, I want people to question that. Just because someone says something doesn't mean it's true.

[00:50:48]>> Yeah. We'll move on to our section called real or real. I'm going to show you a video and I'd love to hear your opinions on that. To preface here on the Her discussions podcast, we are a big big big big fan of nuance.

[00:51:04]This is a place where I do not want guests to feel like they have to make a click worthy moment. I just want the honest truth for our audience. The let them theory is based on a simple truth.

[00:51:18]The fastest way to take control of your life is to stop controlling everyone around you. You have no idea how much time and energy and attention you are wasting trying to control other people. You have no idea how much energy you are burning through, thinking about, worrying about, obsessing about what other people are doing, what they're not doing.

[00:51:48]what they're feeling. All of which you have zero control over. It's really not about other people. See, energetically, you're hooking yourself into other people because you have an opinion about what they should or shouldn't be doing.

[00:52:01]>> And that opinion is usually driven by your insecurity or it's driven by your controlling nature or it's driven by your anxiety or it's driven by whatever it is that you may have. But once you get your energetic hook into somebody else, you've now just lost control. And when you say let them, you're acknowledging the situation and you're almost saying I'm above it and I'm permitting this because I see it happening. And then something really interesting happens because you're no longer all worked up about what they're doing.

[00:52:33]You are forced to look back at yourself.

[00:52:36]Let them. So the let them theory, this has been a big big big trend on social media. What are your thoughts?

[00:52:45]One size doesn't fit everybody. Who am I to say that this is because of that and this is I don't know. I want us to be curious together as to why you may be behaving that way. So with that, I think it's really we can get into hot water when we try to fit into something because someone said it.

[00:53:11]>> Yeah. You said something earlier that I think really really applies to the let them theory. You spoke about the circle of trust. Yeah. and I have an incredible phenomenal relationship with one of my best friends from um North Wales where like from growing up where we have been through many many many seasons of our life together and both of us at some point have told the other person that they are being a dick >> and we have told her when she's been behaving out of line and she's told me when I've been behaving out of line >> and my concern with the let them theory when she was going through a tough time and she was being an awful friend I would have cut that relationship off and I because I would have let her do that. But instead, because I valued the relationship and I valued her as a person, I told her, "You're not behaving as a good friend right now and gave her >> the feedback, the honest feedback that showed her I cared about her." And she's done the same for me.

[00:54:06]>> Absolutely. Cuz you know the essence of your friend. Yeah.

[00:54:10]>> And no one can tell you any different.

[00:54:13]you know, she's having an experience that and for what a bit of a behavior's come out of that, but you know the essence of your friend. So that's perfect and I'm glad that you've got that, you know.

[00:54:27]>> Yeah. And what I worry about the let them theory is it ignores that.

[00:54:31]>> It completely does. It's onedimensional.

[00:54:33]That's what I want to say in that respect, you know.

[00:54:36]>> I really like the way that you visualize that for me in terms of the people, your core inner circle.

[00:54:42]>> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And then once we start placing people, then it just brings you just can breathe with it all really. You know, cuz that's your tribe.

[00:54:52]You know who your tribe is.

[00:54:54]>> Yeah. Okay. I'll come on to some more um community questions before we finish up with the final question that we've been asking all our guests.

[00:55:02]>> So, we've had a couple questions about your idea of safety before strategy.

[00:55:08]What does that mean?

[00:55:09]>> Safety before strategy. Well, I would say that means how do I feel inside my body? Am I balanced? Am I feeling energized?

[00:55:21]Does this feel right? So, it's like really being curious and asking those questions before you then put the plan in place. And then in your little circle, your of trust, you can then pull in, you know, others to to help you through that. But it starts with the first relationship with self.

[00:55:40]>> Nice. What are the biggest mistakes people make when they are trying to fix themselves?

[00:55:45]>> That they think they're broken. That's the first thing. Or they approach that as as some kind of project, you know, and what does fix mean? What are you fixing into what other people expect, you know? Let's first of all look at what it is that's that's causing you upset, distress, or balance. and look at I always go back to what those themes or those patterns but get out of the get out of thinking that you need fixing you know instead of thinking about what's wrong with me let's ask what happened to me I really like your approach to being in inquisitive >> cuz I think recently got engaged but before I got engaged because I knew it was kind of I kind of had the suspicion it was coming up >> right >> and it made me feel awful like really really really awful in that it was something that I couldn't control when it happened, how it happened or what happened.

[00:56:41]>> That's the structure. You wanted things structured.

[00:56:43]>> I just freaked out because I knew I had a suspicion when it was going to happen and it was the weekend before it happened and I just completely freaked out. Like I get really bad change anxiety when I when I feel a change is approaching. I don't know what happens to me. I just I'm not I'm not myself.

[00:57:00]I'm not myself. And because he was away, I ended up doing a little bit of journaling and I did some inner child journaling and thought about what experiences. So, like what you were saying, this inquisitive nature and I went back and I I found some inner child journal prompts online >> and I just it was asking me, you know, kind of trying to pinpoint what cir situation had happened >> and I made so much progress by >> revisiting some really like experiences that I have not thought about for years and years and years. it was nurturing that inquisitive nature. So, I really really love that. That's something that you've spoke about.

[00:57:45]>> What you've just said there is like um what we talk about in therapy is sometimes when the therapy I'm going to let you down and you know my my clients will say what what do you mean? Well, there's going to be a time where I can't make an appointment or I go on holiday and there's going to be space. And this is what happened with you. Okay. So, he he wasn't around. So what you did was you dug deep and you found a way through it and that's amazing. So in in in that you were able to find to be curious to start journaling because if if he was there it might have been different.

[00:58:20]>> Yeah.

[00:58:22]>> So it shows you that anything is possible.

[00:58:26]>> The the worst what is the worst that can happen you can actually work through it.

[00:58:31]That brings me on to the next question actually because I think >> when I was thinking about a lot of these situations that I think have led me to this >> maybe control more controlling approach to life I literally shed tears. It was and I don't normally like I find it quite hard to cry at certain you know situations and I shed real tears. Why does healing sometimes feel worse before it gets better?

[00:59:00]All right. Okay. So, often if we come from a place of where we don't do emotions, you know, you just fall on the floor, get back up, you dust yourself off, and you keep going. All right? So, we store them up. Okay? This is where depression comes in, doesn't it? Sitting on top of emotions. Okay?

[00:59:21]So, what happens then? It can either implode, we become sick, or we explode at the wrong person. So the thought of healing, okay, the thought of of actually when you do go into therapy and you start on this process, you you may feel those un unprocessed emotions and that can feel quite scary, especially if you've had the narrative if you don't cry, you're not allowed to cry. But um often if if you think about it, another way of looking at it is that when we hold on to something, it's concentrated.

[00:59:58]It's really concentrated. The moment you start talking, we dilute it. And when we dilute it, it takes the power out of it.

[01:00:07]But the thought of diluting something or what have you, but it's only a thought is is, "Oh my god, I'm going to feel worse." Yes, you might because the tears, the upset. But one thing we have to remember is that emotions and feelings do not stay. They go. They come and go when we're in it. The thought of it, oh my god, I'm going to cry a river.

[01:00:30]But do we actually cry a river? Cuz it will stop. And it's knowing that when you jump into that, knowing that this will come. The e and flow of emotions, they come and go.

[01:00:43]>> Yeah. So yes, you're feeling you're feeling what happened. Not to the extent cuz you'll never feel it how it was at the first, but you will feel it, but it will pass.

[01:00:54]>> Yeah, it will pass. This too will pass.

[01:00:58]>> Is a good question that gives people a practical starting point. So if someone feels stuck in a pattern right now, if they're listening, >> where should they actually start? And do you have three small things someone could do this week? Okay, where should they start if they're stuck in a pattern? Okay, first of all, right, stop. Often I say write if you if you if you like to write, make your journal your silent counselor. That is your counselor. Write it out of you. If you're going to do that, you end on three things that you're grateful for cuz sometimes the po outpouring can seem quite really overwhelming. So, you end on three things that you're grateful for. And that could be the fact that you've opened your eyes today, you know, or you made it out of bed. And we don't have to look for anything really, really big. Go and get a massage.

[01:01:50]>> You've said it. So, we need to establish your love of massages because >> it's cuz I'm an aroma therapist.

[01:01:56]>> It's okay. And also the fact if you've not someone that's talking constantly in your head, the non-invasive touch is so healing. And being able to have aromatherapy oils that have been crafted just for you for for tension, you know, clarity or, you know, just to look, we spend so much money on our cars to service them or what have you, but we don't do enough for our bodies. Yes, we punish them at the gym, but how do we how do we soo them? The reason why I'm a real advocate for that as well is it soothes the nervous system. You look at the baby, all right, when we put the baby to bed, what do we do? We turn down the lights, we put them, we bath them, we turn down the lights, we read them a story, we feed them, we rock them, we change the whole atmosphere for them just and also I was brought up with um baby massage anyway. That was one tradition through through my household.

[01:02:52]So I've also know what it does to the child. And also just holding a baby and >> patting them.

[01:03:00]>> Oh yeah. That just pops them to sleep.

[01:03:04]You know, even stroking a cat or your dog. What? What? You know. Yeah.

[01:03:10]>> We need that. That's why I advocate that. So what was I general? What have And >> talk to a friend.

[01:03:16]>> Yeah. that you trust >> that you know that you you know you really trust them.

[01:03:22]>> Yeah. talk to a friend and if you can't talk to a friend there are therapist helplines someone if you feel that it's so so big that's why I say the writing no one needs to see it you can cry in it you can draw in it you can stick in it and that is your your silent counselor >> before we come on to the last question you mentioned that you're very passionate about nutrition as well psycho nutrition >> what are the commonest mistakes you see when people might not be eating um yeah for their brain.

[01:03:54]>> Okay. The high functioning um >> woman drinking loads of coffee, right?

[01:04:04]>> Not having I've got no time to have a lunch break.

[01:04:10]I I'm not, you know, or just grabbing some because they're on on their own.

[01:04:16]They'll cook a lovely meal for everybody else with all the ingredients, but for them, they'll just shove something down there. So again, this comes back returns right back to the f first relationship.

[01:04:27]So that's why anyone that comes in, I will always ask them about how how do you eat? How do you approach food? You know, often if if someone has has got eating disorder or anything, I say how are you nourishing your body?

[01:04:43]>> Yeah.

[01:04:43]>> You would never send your children as out with no food in their bellies. Why are you doing it to yourself? I'm a big I haven't got time for lunch person and um last week we had a nutritionist on the podcast who she was talking about low energy availability in women. I'll put the episode on screen now if anyone wants to click on it. But it really made me reframe because I had this idea if I just have a big dinner at night, it's fine. I'm getting the calories that I need to keep me functioning, whatever.

[01:05:08]And she explained to me why that was just completely stupid and idiotic. And I have been making a better a better effort to make sure I'm eating my snacks regularly or my meals regularly. But >> wonderful cuz one of the other things is if you're not eating proper properly, your blood sugar level goes down. When that goes down, your mood goes down. If you're not eating properly, that can buy into anxiety.

[01:05:33]>> Yeah.

[01:05:33]>> I mean, I know when I worked in um the drug and alcohol services and you know, teaching people how to eat again cuz they had no idea how to eat. So often they would replace um their drink with 10, 15 cups of coffee with free sugars in and no food. So you're getting the the sugar high, you know, and and really looking at why have you got a sugar craving? Because alcohol, sugar.

[01:05:58]>> Yeah.

[01:05:59]>> So I will look at how do you relax?

[01:06:02]>> Yeah.

[01:06:03]>> What you're eating and then also looking at the patterns of relating.

[01:06:07]>> So I would say my way of relaxing is Netflix in front of the I've got a big projector. It's watching Netflix. I've got better because previously it would watch Netflix but still do productive things on my phone at the same time. Now phone goes you know I'm not phone is out of reach and I sit probably have a bar of Tony's chocolate as well. Would you say that is a healthy way to relax or not a healthy way to relax before you said that?

[01:06:33]>> I was going to say I'm going to throw a spanner in the words there. Right. Let's go back to what you said earlier. Okay.

[01:06:39]>> I was watching Netflix and I was >> breathing from up here. Right. TV, Netflix, all of that lot creates emotion in us what we're watching. So, you're going to get a reaction. Okay? And that might resonate somewhere within you and set something off. So, don't get me wrong, I do that as well. You know, sometimes you don't you just don't want to think, but it is not the best way. I want you to think about what else you can put in your your whole world to actually relax and learning maybe to be able to to be in space. If you can't sit with yourself, how can you expect anyone else to feel personally attacked?

[01:07:25]No, no, no. Cuz it's true. It is true because I often find after a busy day, I think to myself, I can't wait to get home and just stick Netflix on and not have to think like And it it almost feels like the highlight of my day.

[01:07:37]>> What I would say to you is this is have you got a bath at home? Some people just have a shower bath.

[01:07:42]>> Oh, that's a shame because what I would have said to you was >> I hate baths. So I WAS GOING TO SAY RIGHT. I know you would cuz you would just shout. Okay. So >> I sit there and I just think I need to get out. I need to get out.

[01:07:54]>> What I would say often I hear that so much. So often I'd say lavender oil. If you like the smell of lavender oil that can pull you down. You put a face mask on because the conscious mind thinks for me to be gorgeous I've got to sit here for 20 minutes, >> right?

[01:08:08]>> And you play music so that the mind is being t taken away somewhere. Or if if not then what I'd say is in your shower.

[01:08:17]Do you like the smell of lavender oil?

[01:08:19]Like just pop some lavender oil on the base of the tray so when the water hits it, it comes back up again. And that will just help help calm you. Or burn it burn it in your room. Yeah. you know, and let that or or even just smell it.

[01:08:33]It's one of the the only oils that we can actually put directly on our skin.

[01:08:36]It's the safest. It's great for burns.

[01:08:38]It's great for headaches. It's it's got so many wonderful properties. So, you know, if you do love the smell of it, but I'd want you to think about something else to add in to where you're actually really targeting the nervous system.

[01:08:53]>> Yeah.

[01:08:53]>> Do you like massage?

[01:08:54]>> Yeah. No, I do. I do. But I even think like I often when I'm really busy, I tell myself I don't even have time to like moisturize properly. So I will just literally scoop the moisturizer on like or body the spray body oil just spray spray spray spray spray you know get out the shower like that's I don't take the time to moisturize my skin that's there.

[01:09:16]That's >> you are worth it. And this is the again as I've been banging on about the first relationship with yourself. You know, you absolutely where you running to, >> you'll still get there.

[01:09:29]>> That's so true. Yeah.

[01:09:31]>> Even if it's five minutes later, you'll still get there.

[01:09:34]>> So, I need >> It feels like you're you're running in your body. I just want you to notice that and just slow it down a little bit.

[01:09:41]Yeah.

[01:09:41]>> And I think that Yeah. Maybe shifting my what I'm looking forward to instead of it being night in front of TV.

[01:09:48]>> Yeah.

[01:09:48]>> Long shower.

[01:09:49]>> Yeah.

[01:09:50]>> Moisturize.

[01:09:51]>> Oh, absolutely.

[01:09:52]face mask on.

[01:09:54]>> Do you have your little feet done and what have you, you know, your lovely >> face mask on your feet as well or whatever, you know, >> selfcare time.

[01:10:01]>> Yeah, definitely. Cuz this is all about returning back to self, you know, your people say to me, "Oh, you know, that's selfish." The ones that say to me, "That's selfish. They haven't got a selfish bone in their body." Those that say that would never, you know, it's it's self- loveve. It's your your self-care. And it's so important because you want this body to take you to the next chapter. There's so much more to do, isn't there?

[01:10:26]>> Yeah, >> Paula, that has been absolute pleasure.

[01:10:31]We've got a final question that we've been asking all the guests, and that is, what do you wish every woman knew by the time she was 25?

[01:10:39]to make the mistake that her friend and what I mean by that is you know we are you know learning that the mistake is crucial the failure is crucial because when we have that mistake or we fail we pick something up in the learning you know if you are learning something you don't come in as the master you come in as the student stop pressurizing yourself that way >> I love that that's really really really helpful So thank you so much. Absolute pleasure.