Debating Russell Brand on Catholicism

Added: 2026-05-17

[00:00:00]I would like to ask you, if it's not too personal a question, why you're not a Catholic? Because for me, one of the relieving things about infallibility is that it simply means that God has revealed himself. What he has revealed is true and that the church can in a definitive way over time come to know what it is he has revealed again in a definitive way. And I think what you find in Protestantism, as much as I learned from my Protestant brothers and sisters and love them, and this is not a shot at them, many of them are better Catholics than I am. I say that a bit tongue-in-cheek, but you know what I mean. Is you see that actually the main things aren't the plain things, and the plain things aren't the main things. And if they were, we'd all be agreeing on things like baptismal regeneration, what it is that makes one a Christian, whether or not we can lose our salvation, what the Lord's supper is, and so on. When I see the divisions within Protestantism, and don't get me wrong, we have our problems in Catholicism. I get it, right? The corruption, the pedophilia, there's things that happen, right? Uh, and then Matt Frad and what a bonehead he is, and the stupid things he does for everyone.

[00:01:00]>> Yeah. Well, he probably is a little bit.

[00:01:01]And God used my as manure for their growth as we >> don't find things in the Bible quick enough. That's the problem. That's another problem. You leafing through there like an idiot on a grift.

[00:01:10]>> Yes. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. But no, that's that's what I would say is one of the relieving things about Catholicism is that I can I can trust the church which Christ has established to tell me definitively those things of which I can't make heads or tails of.

[00:01:23]>> I like that. I know. And like >> and I think to and one last point, I'm sorry before we go on is what might be more weird is to think that the church cannot come to know in a definitive way what it is God has revealed. Um and I think that without the church and the magisterium that has been established that that's the position you're in. You have to go on your wisdom uh you have to you know read the theologians throughout the histories for yourself and use your intelligence to then submit to it. And I think was it GK Chesterton who said that the genius of Catholicism or is the humbling fact of realizing that uh that someone knows more than me and that's and that's okay when what they know is what you would like to know.

[00:02:09]>> But it's it's uncomfortable when the church is telling me something that I don't actually want to know right now.

[00:02:15]>> It's a big question you've asked me there. And here comes >> here we go. So, interestingly, I'm um infatuated with at least Catholicism. I have no problem with transsubstantiation.

[00:02:29]Like, and when I'm taking communion at the Protestant church that I go to, I like want it to be his flesh and I want it to be his blood.

[00:02:40]>> It isn't though.

[00:02:41]>> I'm not interested in symbols and signs.

[00:02:44]Now, though, check it.

[00:02:48]I don't like that because there was so much time dedicated and remember I'm you know I'm open man I pray the rosary I love it then I get into the rosary and then hear oh some people don't do the luminous mysteries oh why is that >> some people aren't Catholic enough that's Catholic JP oh okay >> this is what I mean with Catholics Catholicism not like this is what I like to call purity spiraling you see it in every religion in every group that is like you are and we can look down our nose so that we can feel like one of the elites have that inth.

[00:03:18]>> One of the problems with wokeism is that it became so sort of madly such a mad cannibalistic carousel that in the end it's like no one was right. And that's good that benefits system.

[00:03:29]>> The Puritanism got out of hand now. So like I pray the rosary. I love the rosary. It's evocative. It's powerful to me.

[00:03:36]>> How could you not? It's like it's a what do they call it? A Bible study on beads.

[00:03:40]This is for you, by the way. I wanted to give it to you. I'm sure you have enough rosaries to fill a suitcase or two, but there's another one for you.

[00:03:47]>> Thank you.

[00:03:48]>> Yeah. Who told who told you about the rosary?

[00:03:51]>> Why did you decide to pray?

[00:03:52]>> I do. Well, my mate on when I got baptized, I bear grills one side, my mate Joe Macan the other. Joe's a Catholic. And when I I don't know why I started what drew me This is a good rosary.

[00:04:03]>> Well, you seem like you've always liked beads and there's something nice and tactile about Catholicism.

[00:04:08]>> I need something I can hold on to, man.

[00:04:10]>> I need something I can hold on to. But listen, I've got a lot of things to say about what you just asked me. Thank you for this beautiful gift. Thank you. I would do the rosary on the way home.

[00:04:17]>> Pray for me.

[00:04:18]>> All right.

[00:04:18]>> Please.

[00:04:19]>> All right.

[00:04:20]>> Thank you.

[00:04:20]>> It's a bit selfish that I've got to do my debut rosary.

[00:04:23]>> You just agreed to it. You have to do it.

[00:04:25]>> It's on camera now.

[00:04:26]>> But I'll let you go. I'll let you uh un unleash there.

[00:04:29]>> All right. So, this is what it is. This is what it is. There's a lot of things.

[00:04:32]So, please and I do these are not uh this is not rhetoric. This is true inquiry.

[00:04:38]So, I love the idea of an apostolic line. I want to reach back to his hand.

[00:04:44]I want to feel the hand of Peter. I want to feel the brokenness of Peter and Ignatius. And I love it. I love it. And I love Aquessess and I love Augustine.

[00:04:52]And a couple of times, and I've laughed about this with Jeff Cavens. As a matter of fact, I've got I like Catholic churches. And I like Catholics. My father-in-law is Catholic. My wife is Catholic. I went to a Catholic church on Christmas Day and I thought, I'm going to do communion here. Is that all right, God? I know I've not done all the stuff, but like would the first ones have done it? And you know, anyway, like so, but the priest, I don't know what I did wrong, but I did something wrong.

[00:05:17]>> He detected something.

[00:05:18]>> The priest went, "Are you Catholic?" And I went, "Yes, I lied to a priest on Christmas Day in a church." So, put that one at the foot of the cross. Then the next time I was in a Catholic church, St. Patrick's, New York, I forgot to put it in my mouth. And you know, some people steal it and do weird stuff, I guess. You know, but I'd just forgotten.

[00:05:34]So, I've heard the security at St. had just go, "Hey, you." And I feel like I did a film. I did a scene in that place >> paying attention.

[00:05:41]>> Yeah. And it's like, you know, like I took it. Anyway, so like um but here's the other thing. So I have this yearning and I love the Catholic Church. I love it and I love Catholics. And here's where the obstacle has come in. First, there's so much time dedicated in his word and in his, you know, on the red letter days in particular to Pharisee and any sort of attempt to institutionalize or control. Oh, we spend so much time doing that. And I'm not saying that that's something that's um unique to Catholicism. Of course, I'm not. You find it in the Orthodox church.

[00:06:12]Yeah. And you'll find it amongst Protestants also. But anything that's sort of to me smacks of brokerage or intervention, I don't care for that.

[00:06:21]Here's something a bit more personal and a bit more visceral. And and still yet, I you know, who knows? I may become Catholic. I'm I'm like I'm waiting. I pray and I ask if there's something I'm not doing that you want me to do, show me. I I don't want to do what you know that from Romans what I don't want to do I do and what I do want to do I you know I want to be what he wants me to be. So I'm completely open and there's loads of Catholics I know that I really love it.

[00:06:43]I love the meat of the saints. I love the holy mother. I love the blood. I love the flesh. I know that there's something sensual in it that's like enough to overcome the erotic. You know I know there's a lot in there. However, right when I was last in Rome I went there see my godson. He's there. his father like I got a god kid and then his god rest his eternal son Martino died and that meant that the godfather role took on a different kind of meaning. So I was there to see him my mate Joe who I told you about just now he was there too and we go to um I can't remember which church it was but people will be able to identify easily from this there are three caravajios there of St. Matthew >> I know the one you mean but I forget the name of the church >> might be something like St. Luth I think it's like you know there's a L U somewhere in it right so we're looking and I've been there before and looked at them before but I enjoyed it more this time somehow the anointing or appointing of St. Matthew. And some people they say they debate which one's meant to be, Matthew. But I don't debate it. I know which one it is. It's this one. Like, no, man. No, that's the one I There's no question in my mind that that's who the finger is pointing at. Then the next one is him writing the gospel with an angel about him. And then the next one is him having his skin cut off and him being martyed and executed. And when I looked at that, it's not a tptic, but they're three paintings displayed together. When I looked at them and I thought you have 10 minutes and a few heartbeats away from the Vatican like that kind of Christianity that cost you something.

[00:08:09]You It cost him something. The reason that dude's like, "Oh no, don't take me out of my tax collecting gig because I know where this goes. I'm going to have real skin in the game." It made me in a moment, this came to me not as a forzer feeling that the Vatican would have battlements. The Vatican would feel like a sort of the center of a war. It would feel like it. It would not have some easy affiliation that if not secular may as well be the acceptance of this relationship between the church and the state. Now I will make exactly the same charge or observation. Who am I to be dishing out charges? I'm here to receive not to issue that in the church of England. I can even hear in the composition of that idiom church of England which where the superior power lies. It's with England. is not with the church and we all know what happened and how that was established or then with the slew of Protestant movements in the great nation that we're in which for all I can tell might as well and I pray one day will be a new Jerusalem that there seems to be some higher authority indeed it's Christianity's not plastin plasticity but mobility that allows aspects of I mean if we're talking about the whole if we're talking about the whole then there are many many aspects of Christ that one might bring to the forefront. And my strong sense, mate, is that what we're being called to do is to ensure that we're the kind of Christians that are described in here. And I know a lot of new Christians, understandably, sort of chronologically would feel like we must be like the first Christians. We must be. But that isn't that the glory is that we're receiving it direct from him. That he will talk to us directly through his Holy Spirit. That he's here now. And I suppose I don't like no idea of an adjunct between me and him of any description. And yes, of course, the long list that you um helpfully cited at the beginning of like, yeah, there's controversy everywhere that comes about, I believe, as a result of institutionalism. And I feel like them Pharisees and Sadducees were satanic, that they were controlled by the worst and darkest forces available at the time. Certainly, they killed God. That seems like a pretty fair indicator of what their position is on.

[00:10:21]righteousness. So, I would like to know that the church that I belong to.

[00:10:29]>> It's not like, but part of it will still be my remnant self cuz I do I've said it before as a joke. Like, well, it's cuz I could never be pope. Like, why would I join a I'm not Groucho Marks. Groucho Marks don't want to be a club that would have him as a member. I don't want to be a member of a club that won't have me as its leader. And and I suppose that's been an obstacle. But in my friend Carl a long time ago says with Christianity they make it so traditional that it's inaccessible or they try and modernize it and they make it kind of crap and naff and like and that does feel like a problem and like the yeah the comfort of like throwing yourself at the feet not just of Aquinus but Chester and every pope there's ever been and maybe feeling yes that I too am the rock but I wonder if being uh petrified is indeed about being in the state of absolutely accepting him as son of the living God.

[00:11:18]Son of the living God. Now, now and any like I understand tradition as a bullvver against this sort of this kind of false mass manufacturer, this sort of swarming swamping attempt to control attention and consciousness itself, the prima materia, the holy flow.

[00:11:35]>> It's a walk against man-made traditions too.

[00:11:38]>> Yes. I hope. I hope. But then there's this other rather more uh I don't know would you say this is an ecclesiastical inquiry? How do we deal with this contradiction? Like, yeah. Um, that if it's not in this Bible, >> then it's not true. And like, even if I'm testing the veracity of non-Christian scripture or texts, excuse me. I'm like, does it if it don't contradict this, I'm like, oh, that's pretty cool. That's actually in alignment with this. I'm doing that, you know, as part of my own learning. But like, Catholicism necessarily leans into the catechism and like literature that's outside of scripture. And so I've even had a bit of trouble reconciling that which would seem like a more practical question to ask well as all that other stuff that was much more personal and perhaps a little looser.

[00:12:22]>> Yeah. Thank you.

[00:12:24]>> Uh well I suppose first of all the catechism as you know isn't inspired nor is it treated as such and can be modified. Um but it teaches we think faithfully what God has revealed in scripture and tradition. Um, one thing that's not in scripture that you and I accept is the inspired table of contents, the 27 books of the New Testament. Uh, as one theologian said, the, uh, Bible is not an instruction manual for a church still in shrink wrap. But the Bible presupposes a church, you know, already in existence.

[00:12:59]um that we if if we b at the corruption of the church and I'm fully willing to accept that the Catholic Church is a corrupt institution maybe the most corrupt institution but I also think it's founded by Christ and so cannot lead us into error definitively in faith and morals but I would say that we the church is who wrote the scriptures specifically the New Testament right as the church canonized the scriptures and then we have what is it the council of Rome in 382 to Pope Damsus I you know first sort of giving us the list. So it seems to me that to accept even just the New Testament as canonical is to accept the church's declaration of it. Uh so that would be one thing that's not in scripture that we accept. Um and then I also don't think there would be many more things than that that I would say you should accept if they're not explicitly or implicitly in scripture.

[00:13:54]>> Yeah. But but to me I think the one of the reasons me personally I I I couldn't leave the Catholic Church for say Protestantism at least is what to do when one has a fundamental disagreement about something that seems like a big deal. So when I I did something of a survey of the early church fathers and when they interpret John 3:5 unless you're born of water and spirit you cannot have life within you. Every one of them without exception interprets this as baptismal regeneration. But I know and you know Baptists for example who are in disagreement to Lutheran and Calvinists as to what that means.

[00:14:33]>> What? What? No, you'll have to explain >> as to what Well, is is it merely a symbol baptism or does it affect something? Does it actually in a real way free me of my sin and make me a child of God? Is it is it necessary for salvation? Uh and what brings that about? what makes me a Christian? The the point is just that you have competing claims in Protestantism. And I I I want to know, well, where do you go then if you have these competing claims?

[00:14:57]Because if you say, well, back to the scripture, it's like, well, okay, but it's now 2026 and we still don't know what baptism does or we still don't know whether you can lose your salvation. So, I just go back to that logic logical argument, I suppose, as before. It seems right that if God were to reveal himself and to establish a single church, not a multiplicity of them, but one, uh, that that church, I think it's reasonable to think that that church over time can come to know in a definitive way what it is that God has revealed and then I can sort of submit myself to the authority of the church.

[00:15:30]>> Yeah, I wonder if >> that's where I'm at. That's from how I see it. Thank you very much for watching. If you enjoyed that clip, you are going to love the full interview.

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