HBAR DeFi Corner - Disagreement - 9 June 2026

Added: 2026-06-10

[00:00:03]Welcome back to another HAR Defi Corner where we get into everything that's going on in Hideera Defi. As always, we've got Brady back from Bonso Finance.

[00:00:12]Brady, welcome back, buddy.

[00:00:14]>> Hey, thanks so much, man.

[00:00:15]>> Well, to start, of course, we want to warn everybody. We're going to be getting into tokens, yield opportunities, all that kind of stuff.

[00:00:22]We do want to say that you have to understand the risks before you get involved with DeFi. There is market risk, there's smart contract risk, there is impermanent loss, all kinds of crazy stuff that you need to learn about, but it is a great ecosystem to to learn about. We also want you to make sure you understand your local laws and regulations before you get involved. But Brady, with that out of the way, we'll go ahead and jump into it. Uh, the first thing that I want to bring up is the V3.

[00:00:50]So, version three, that's the central order limit book for um, Saucer Swap.

[00:00:55]They've gone through their halborn audit. So, they've passed that. They didn't have any critical or high severity findings. So, that's good. They are getting really close, Brady, to to launching. I'm not exactly sure when that's going to happen, but we're not talking about months out. This is going to happen fairly soon. So, I'm really looking forward to it. The way that I want to use it is I want to get back into trading. just, you know, on a small scale, play around with it. Get familiar with trading again and see how some of those benefits can, you know, for supplying that liquidity. I'm not going to go in and do market orders or anything like that. I'm going to put my bids and ass above or below the market and and just participate in it and see how the fees work with that. So, when things get a little bit more critical, when things start to hit heat up in crypto, you know, I can take advantage of that. What are your thoughts around V3 and what's going on with Saucer Swap right now?

[00:01:50]>> Yeah, I'm really really excited about um and congrats by the way on the audit uh completion or or close to completion there. That's always like the final final sort of piece that needs to come into play. That's obviously critically important. I'm excited for just more functionality within the Hideera ecosystem. you know, as soon as one new thing comes online that plays off of the thing before it, it's it opens up the door to the next thing that that ends up coming along as well. So, you know, we've seen that with even just sort of like Saucer Swap and then Bonso coming online. Like we have a lot of dependencies uh when it comes to Saucer Swap driving the liquidity and the trading volume that exists for DeFi within the Hideera network. You know, lending and vaults relies on that.

[00:02:35]You've got folks like Orbit who've come online and you know they're providing advanced DeFi functionality as well. And so I think just just more functionality is going to be helpful. My hope is that you know we see some things I think related to more institutional adoption and I think a lot of the stuff that Saucer Swap has been sort of driving towards is going to help with that.

[00:02:56]Institutional money I think is going to be the most important um thing that Hideera can can do. Um, I started thinking about this the other day and for a long time I was thinking it's really hard to be able to create the right incentive models to bring folks over into a network. You know, we've talked about like blast previously where they set up shop and then they had you, you know, stake your liquidity to their network and and provided a massive amount of rewards and then people just came and extracted it and then left. And that was kind of the same with like uh Bar Chain and a few others. And it's like the question becomes, how do you create sustainable rewards or a sustainable behavioral model that gets people not just in the door but also staying and hanging out. Obviously product is a a big one. Having really great products within the ecosystem is important and then the infrastructure of the ecosystem itself.

[00:03:53]I think Hideera does a really good job at that. some of the experiences that we have in in products and protocols are thoughtful and caring for users. But a bigger one I think is is institutional money I is over time that is going to drive you know a significant amount of new folks net new folks into the ecosystem. So, you know, when you think about retail, how they FOMO, I think part of it is they probably see institutions in many cases going to whether they know it or not, institutional money flowing into a new network can be a very like FOMO invoking thing and you can see that in metrics on DeFi Lama. there are places where they would be able to see that kind of thing happening. And then not wanting to miss that wave of going into those um you know into those places and then you know maybe not having like just the value extraction incentive models but having more sustainable models with those institutions involved. A lot of times they're sort of driving some of the incentives that are more organic within uh within the the protocols themselves.

[00:05:01]So, it's a it's not a sort of fully baked foolproof. There's no foolproof ideas when it comes to adoption and and DeFi, but um it's something I've been thinking a lot more on and I just I think institutional money is going to be really important and some of the stuff back to your point with Saucer Swap is going to be driving a lot of that. I think there's some real things that you guys are doing that is helpful on that front and stuff that we want to try to inherit and and evolve later on too.

[00:05:27]Well, I I do want to get more inst into the institutional focus on DeFi. Uh but first, I also want to say and I don't fully understand all of this. Uh it's not my role at Saucer Swap to dive into this stuff, but I do know that a lot of the central limit books that are out there, they use either appetchains, things like that to allow it to function. And Saucer Swap was able to do that. all built directly on Hideera using smart contracts and so forth. Do you have any thoughts about that? Do you see that as a big difference when you look at some of the other um applications like this that are out there?

[00:06:06]>> I am not I do not have the depth of knowledge with regards to order books and how they're architected. I think to have like a really well-informed answer.

[00:06:14]Um I think it's great that you're able to do them all on chain. I think uh if I had to estimate the Hideera uh the Hashgraph consensus algorithm and the infrastructure I would bet is is supporting the ability to do that in a way that is maybe better than other networks. Um and I I'm curious also if it utilizes like HCS as part of the order book recording orders in any way. Okay, cool.

[00:06:47]Yeah, >> it does. But again, I don't know the exact architecture.

[00:06:51]>> Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no worries. Um, yeah. So I I would say that you know in innovation on that front where we're utilizing the network in ways to be able to do things that other networks can't quite do or even oftent times we'll find that architecting protocols that exist on other networks doing so on Hideera not even with that much change actually changes the profile of the protocol itself because of the changed underlying infrastructure. So like with fair ordering for example on the lending protocol and we did a blog post about this at ponzo.inance/blog Finance/blog, but we talk about how fair ordering changes the landscape of the liquidation bots and the economics of it because well, fair ordering combined with the super low fixed fees because, you know, liquidation bots historically, they will it it's not just a game of infrastructure, but it's a game of economics where the liquidation bots will outbid each other to get the liquidation. And so, you could have a liquidation bot that sucks. It's not infrastructure strong. It's slower. But they can pay to get the liquidation faster. They're just limited then to which liquidations are then economically viable when you do the cost difference between how much they're paying to bribe a node to get in first versus how much they're actually earning from the liquidation. So, it limits that. But in Hideera, you you you're not bribing nodes. You have to have better a better bot uh to win. And I think that's a really that's a really good thing. Um, and there's a number of cases like that across the board. And so, you know, back to your point on, you know, architecting limit order books on Hideera. My guess and I'd love to read a blog post if if uh you know if you guys write something about it but my guess is there's a number of things that just based on the way Hyera functions it's going to give superiority for limit order books on Hideera but relative to other networks in some way shape or form.

[00:08:54]>> Yeah, absolutely. And I know I keep flipping flipping those words. I guess the dyslexia is creeping in there. But uh yeah, so the other thing that I wanted to get into, you were talking about institutional finance getting involved more in DeFi, and there's no place where we're seeing more of that than with Hyperlid. Now, when PES first started to come out on centralized exchanges, I dug into them. I I figured out how the the funding rates worked and how they kept that peg. I remember thinking I was like, "Well, this has no real tie to the asset itself." But, you know, then I kind of shelved it. I didn't think about it much. I was like, "Okay, so this is what they're doing." I didn't actually participate uh in them, but you know, I wanted to understand it.

[00:09:35]And then a few weeks ago, I'm like, I'd like to with Hyperlid doing so well, I would like to explain this to my viewers. So, I did a little bit deeper dive and my mind started to get repelled when I I started to really understand what they're doing. And even though they are having a lot of success, I want to kind of get your take on what Hyperlid is doing. I also want to highlight that, you know, people will say, you know, Hyperlid has this tremendous uh volume that they're doing. They have tremendous uh revenue. They are one of the most profitable entities that that we have out there, but it is completely different than Hideera. And one of the things that at least I'm attracted to with Hideera is it's built to run an economy, the entire world economy. you know, of course with it would require sharding. It would require additional scale, but we could do it. And that's what they're designing it for. What Hyperlid is is it's actually a private permissioned network that we don't even know who is running their nodes. We don't know where they are. And it's designed for one thing. It's similar to if we'll say Saucer Swap was run on a sphere, right? and Hideera was was running that and they were just purely focused on that if that's all they did was establish a market. And we know that decentralized exchanges, exchanges can be really lucrative. But there's a big difference between setting up something like that that runs one market to something that runs the entire economy.

[00:11:07]So Brady, we can get into whatever you like around this, you know, some of the the differences between Hideera and what it's designed to do and something like Hyperlid, some of the competitive um aspects between the two. And certainly if you want to get into perpetuals and all that kind of stuff, I'd h be happy to jump into that as well.

[00:11:25]>> Yeah, I saw you mentioned Hyperlid.

[00:11:27]Immediately made me think of the Hunter Biden. Uh he's been on a roll on X. if you've been watching. Yes, there's a tweet that went live of uh just the word hyperlquid uh which was really funny.

[00:11:39]He's um apparently um a crypto advocate which was interesting. Um yeah, I happy to talk about that. I you know I think you're right that like Hideera was built from the ground up with the concept of being able to run the whole economy. They wanted it to be able to scale efficiently, have transactional throughput that would satisfy the needs of transactions within the economy. When you add sharding on top of it, that you know creates that ability. Um, I think that's from like a startup perspective, I think it's good to have that. I think that ambitions of being able to satisfy that kind of scale is really important, but also I think there's an aspect of focus that's really important as well and understanding users and customers and the context of which you exist in.

[00:12:36]And so I'd say boiling the ocean is never a good approach uh in terms of adoption and and um and getting people on board. oftent times is you have to start with a wedge that can evolve into something much greater. you we saw this like a good example I guess is with like Cloudflare you know they started as like a CDN network uh that offered uh security and performance enhancements uh for people who have set up websites and applications and they've expanded their product set um more and more and more over time beyond that they did a premium model to get more and more websites involved they started with something that was like kind of a table stakes thing they knew what people wanted what they needed did get them in the door and then they started going after sort of like cloud provider offerings rather than more ubiquitous like CDN security and performance offerings where it was competing against cloud providers directly. ly you had Cloudflare workers which competes with AWS Lambda and that was an incredible wedge to get people into to Cloudflare workers to get some of their workloads from you know what would otherwise have been on AWS or Azure into Cloudflare and then once you have that one thing in you have this opportunity then as a as Cloudflare to be able to set up you know other cloud related offerings. So the next one that was uh released was Cloudflare S uh what is it? R3 instead of S2. S2 is a object storage. R3 is a joke on that where instead of S2 it's uh one letter before one number after and they're kind of just going to continue to knock down that list where all of a sudden at a certain point you don't even realize it but they start to look like a cloud provider. In many ways, um I think a lot of businesses can be viewed similarly to that if you're have ambitions of taking over the entire economy as a network and you're building the infrastructure to be able to scale for that and and you're setting you're setting the stage for that, you still need to be able to create a user adoption wedge and grow into that. So it's twofold is is my sort of beliefs on on that. Um and then the other thing too is the right tool for the right job. So yeah, you could try to run every single thing on the Hideera network, and I bet I bet you could probably get it pretty close. Um to to be fair, I think there's a lot of things that the Hideera network can do that allows for that. But um at the same time, a market is is big and it's continuing to grow. And so picking and choosing where where the part of the market is that you want to carve out and and stake your claim to and have territory and then and then figure out how to grow out from that I think is just a really important way of approaching things. Um it's really one of the only ways that I've seen people be be hyper successful unless they're offering something that is so uniquely innovative as a product that no one can compete. But I just that doesn't feel the case with with at least this market that we're in.

[00:15:49]>> And I mean this is a big part of the point here is the things that are being built on top of it. Whether it's Saucer Swap, whether it's some of the games that we have out there, whether it's Bonzo, those are the things that have to be successful, right? And and get traction and so forth. Um I will say that you know just getting back to the the per idea it seems like and it makes some sense because you know we saw the success with poly market and it uses a similar mechanism to allow you to essentially bet on stock prices but you aren't getting exposure to the underlying stock or commodity or preipo company or things like that with hyperl but like you're >> futures contracts for for Yeah.

[00:16:31]>> Yeah. But a perpetual future where a normal futures contract eventually you have to deliver the the asset itself you never have to deliver the actual asset in the case of a perp so there's no tie there's no restraint uh by the actual asset that >> why why is that what have you found in terms of why there's no requirement for delivery >> well the the main thing is it's it's to get out of the the regul from what I can tell the regulations and controls that they have around those regulated markets, whether they're options, the the tools to allow you to do that are out there. Whether they're regular futures, whether they're options, whether there's uh if you want to leverage up on things, you can do all of those things. But if you want to get people participating in your market without having to deal with those issues, of course, Hyperlid isn't allowed in the United States right now.

[00:17:24]But now all of these people from around the world can feel like they're getting access to SpaceX or Apple or Gold and Silver or anything else without actually getting exposure to it. Now, they do have an innovative mechanism with the funding rates that allow you to maintain kind of a peg, but I think it it can break down at the worst time. It's algorithmic. It's very similar to what we saw with Teral Luna. Now, there's going to be all kinds of people out there that say, "Well, it's much better because of X, Y, and Z." I'm sorry. I'm not really convinced, but to your point, it does get their foot in the door so then they can move into the real world asset space. One of the points that that I'm trying to get to is the true realworld asset market which is going to be much uh bigger. The per market should remain very small and if it starts to get too big I think regulators are going to step in and make sure that it shrinks back down to the size that's appropriate for an economy. Very few people should participate in that market. They should be dealing in the actual real world asset markets. And of course for the capital flow to the right places you have to have that. So for capitalism itself to work you have to have that. So my point is it's wide open that real world asset market and the real seeds for that market may be hyperlquid as they move into those real world assets.

[00:18:48]But I also think it's things like project occasion which Rob has talked about going through the central banks or the other regulators in a country to go through pilot programs figure out what works a and then rebuild the real world asset markets using this new innovative technology in DT or something like DTCC.

[00:19:08]Okay, they are the infrastructure that custodies all the securities here in the United States. and we have Canton, we have now Stellar that are part of the infrastructure that they've approved to be able to use to do that. I am almost 100% positive that Hideera will be approved for that as well. And then it's going to be the exchanges that kind of have to choose which tech stack they want to use. I was talking about this again in in my show the other day that I think Hideera should be going after all of the players whether it's, you know, international, the Footsie or the NK or here in the United States, the the NASDAQ and the New York Stock Exchange.

[00:19:42]But one that I would go after with laser focus is the New York Stock Exchange just because they're both there in Dallas. They can establish relationships. They really haven't launched yet. So it'll allow Hideera and the Texas Stock Exchange kind of to grow together. But that's overall my take.

[00:19:59]>> Yeah. No, it's an interesting one.

[00:20:01]There's a few points in there that um were especially interesting. I think you you mentioned the difference between having what what you you could describe as like a synthetic market which is rep it's a hologram of uh of what the real world assets are that I mean if you look at the way that things are being built like let's just use circle as the example um with USDC like USDC is not a dollar and it's you know what I mean it's not a representation of a tea bill or a dollar it's a well rather it is but it's not the actual physical thing >> sure >> and I just it makes me wonder what the difference is between is there a difference even between what is a real what is a real world asset that's tokenized on chain relative to um the real world asset that underlies it itself itself and it it almost in my mind doesn't make a difference as long as as long as you can validate, verify and and be certain that it's its representation is accurate at that point. It almost feels like it doesn't matter. And then until it comes to the point of redemption where when when you when you want to redeem it for the paper thing and then you could even argue like what's the paper thing? It's a paper thing is just an abstraction of the of the thing itself anyway. It's just turtles all the way down.

[00:21:33]>> No, I I actually I I kind of strongly disagree. There is Yes. I mean, there is when the rubber meets the road, >> the tea bills that or the the actual cash that supports a stable coin that is held in bank accounts or held with the US government, they can always fulfill the actual dollars. It is a real thing.

[00:21:55]It kind of reminds me of, you know, that quote from uh what was it? blow when he's like talking about, you know, it's it's a just a an imaginary line. A border is an imaginary line. What did I just bring plants across and and the judge is like, well, that that imaginary line is very real. It is our border and those plants are illegal, so you're going to prison. It's that kind of thing that yes, it is real. These things are real. So if you have price exposure to Tesla and all of a sudden because the pers can't pay a dividend but because of Tesla becoming tremendously profitable they don't know what they to do with their money uh because of autonomy and because of AI and they want to start paying a dividend and it's you know 40 50% or crazy whatever it is but that per can't pay that out that perp is loses that peg it loses the value no no matter how much you want to tie it to it. It doesn't especially if that market gets too big. I think >> doesn't doesn't it get priced in though?

[00:22:57]Like if if that is the case then then people would behave under the same conditions as if the asset that's tokenized is receiving the dividend because the underlying asset would get the dividend itself and so it increases the value. what would happen would be the >> right >> well you're not you're not getting that actual you're not getting the cash that holding the actual asset would represent or the physical gold and silver we'll say that you know even the regular futures market people wonder about you know how much silver is actually there can we have delivery but when you have a per it's completely divorced from that reality so if there's a panic and people want the physical metal because of whatever it might be that per all of a sudden becomes worthless And I I can go through all kinds of examples of different ways I could see it decoupling from the actual asset. And once it's done it with one perpetual, I think that could shake the entire market. It just makes me nervous. So, we don't have to actually, you know what I would like to do? I'd like to ask the people in the audience, if you have any questions about this or any thoughts, drop those down in the comments so Brady and I can come on here in a couple weeks and dig into it a little bit more. Obviously, he's kind of on one side of it. I'm on the other. I do I I believe in freedom.

[00:24:16]If people want to do these kind of things, I think they should have the freedom to do so. But even that libertarian in me says that we have to be careful and the regulator should watch this really carefully. Now, if Hyperliquid wants to move into more traditional real world asset tokenization, I'm all for that. But that's where I want the the real economic uh dynamism to take place in the truly backed real world asset markets, not necessarily in these per.

[00:24:42]But we'll leave it there for now. We'll jump on to the next topic unless you have anything else you want to touch on.

[00:24:46]>> No, nothing else to add. I have a lot of questions now that I want to I want to go back and research. Obviously, I'm I'm learn I know a little bit and I'm learning at the same time, just as I'm sure everyone is. So, yeah, curious to see the comments as well if people post those. Uh that'll help inform more research as well. And we'll I'm sure we'll pick those back up too on the next DeFi corner.

[00:25:06]>> Yeah, that works. So, a big part of DeFi, of course, is our native asset within Hideera, and that's the H bar.

[00:25:12]And there's actually something taking place right now. Brady, have you been following the bounties they've been doing at Hideera, or Hashgraph has been facilitating them?

[00:25:19]>> I saw one post about a bounty with agents where they want folks, I think it's $1,000 where if you create an agent that facilitates some sort of economic transaction.

[00:25:35]Well, well, the one that's happening right now is actually to use the H bar in in commerce, to figure out a way to use the H bar in payment, whether that's an agent or whatever. I I don't have everything uh in front of me right now, but that's the gist of it. And it goes back to something that I've been pounding the table on. Of course, all of the tokens on Hideera are fairly easy to transact. They're cheap to transact. The Hideera token Service, you're talking about onetenth of a cent. It's just a little bit above that if you're using an ERC20 that's built on top of Hideera.

[00:26:06]But HAR itself, because it's our strategic asset, it's significantly cheaper. It's 1/100th of a cent. So we're talking about 10% of the cost to make transactions. And I've always thought that if you actually want true settlement that the H bar is perfect for small value transactions on the internet. Whether that is for agent to agent payments, whether that's for uh transactional internet of things, for deepen, there's all kinds of places where I could see it fitting in. And where a lot of these other things you have to cover the costs of the hideera network. If the H bar is acrewing more value because you're building an economy around it, it has other benefits to the Hideera network where you don't necessarily have to worry about the fees covering all the cost quite as much. And I talked about this with Mance. He was fairly receptive to it. I'm not sure if that had any kind of an impact on having this bounty, but of course I I would like to think that it has because I've been talking to him about it here for a while. Um, I've seen push back on that in the past. What are your thoughts around the HAR being used in as a medium of exchange uh in the Hideera economy, we'll call it, and more broadly, um, do you think that has a fair amount of value or do you think it's something that the HAR should focus on just being the the thing that pays for fees uh, and services on the Hideera network?

[00:27:29]So the the ethos that I have around these networks in general, including Hideera, is that every network that's been established, and there's probably thousands of them now, um they are many nation states, like many digital nation states. So just as every nation state exists, uh it has its own national currency. For Hideera, that national currency is is HAR.

[00:27:58]uh it has governance uh in in various flavors and forms but usually it's a sort of um democratic governance process whereby it's either the nodes that are voting like on Bitcoin's uh blockchain or for proof ofstake networks like Ethereum and Hideera uh staking uh is sort of supportive of of governance in in in some way shape or form um more more so for consensus. this on the Hideera side. Hideera has its governing council which are sort of uh you know decentralized group of individuals that are are making decisions for the network. Others are more pure forms of the the token itself being governance.

[00:28:41]It was sort of maybe like owning property in the United States initially when it was first formed where property owners were ones who voted. Um you have to sort of have skin in the game.

[00:28:51]there's sort of effectively a GDP based on the businesses that are established within that economy. People pay taxes in order for the infrastructure to continue to exist. So through transaction fees with the national currency, a portion of commerce, those fees goes to the node operator itself as well as to the you know the federal government um uh as as playing into the analogy or the treasury for hideera. So all of these things they there are many nation states at the end of the day. And when you think about what makes a you know a thriving nation state is its economy and so there is an economy that exists on each of these networks and the national currency is really important through that lens to be able to support facilitating commerce.

[00:29:42]More people want to have exposure to a national currency when the economy in that nation is thriving.

[00:29:50]um you know you look at the United States and the US dollar as like a reserve currency today. So you know it feels that that analogy works really well in my mind. And so when I think about H bar um you know as as a part of our economy I think that's very true and there's a lot of things that play out that way like purchasing NFTTS for example you're using the national currency to pay for NFTTS through Sentex but then there does exist other nations economies whether they're digital nation states or like you know actual countries with USDC And you know, a lot of what Hideera has done is tied its nation and even its currency to USDC and the United States, which is really interesting. Fees on Hideera are based on US dollar denominated amounts paid in our national currency in order to facilitate transactions. And then when you think about what drives the value of of the the national currency, part of it has to do with demand of the currency on the open market. So you know for Hideera transaction fees are incredibly important and the amount of volume of transactions that are inclusive of those fees being paid is really important because if I want to transact on the network, I have to go to the open market and I have to create demand pressure for the for H bar for the national currency because I buy it and then I use it for its intended purpose of paying transaction fees. fees and it creates this cycle where those transaction fees portion of it goes to node operators a portion of it goes to the treasury and it starts to be a flywheel and then the the hideera as a nation I don't think can be successful without ensuring that there is that demand for har to facilitate transactions and the only way to do that is to increase demand for using businesses is on the network and having transaction fees going through it and it'll just spiral over time the more and more demand. It's why organic usage of the network is really important.

[00:32:12]We've seen a lot of, you know, proofs of concept for enterprises that that have come along and some of them are really really interesting, but you know, at the end of the day, they're they're proofs of concept. And you could make the argument that like, well, it's because, you know, businesses uh in mainstream and enterprises for a long time have had a really difficult time with being able to even support buying cryptocurrency as a business. And how do you account for that? And what are the rules around it?

[00:32:37]And like how do you account for even paying transactions? So a lot of times they're just given H bar to it's almost like given AWS credits in a way to be able to use the infrastructure. But but ultimately the thing that's important is like you know if if enterprise is the sort of a path that's that's important long term which I think you know it's obvious that that that is the case those businesses need to be buying H bar on market organically and then using it for its intended purpose of paying transaction fees and really kickstarting that cycle. And so I don't see a world in which you know a any network can be successful without having the the um strong demand for uh transactions on the network and usually those transactions are towards businesses. And then if you want to do it a step further, I feel like I'm just rambling now, but a step further is, you know, what types of transactions are the most valuable? And when when you look at the the fee schedule on Hideera smart contract transactions, I think and I and I'm very curious to run the numbers on this and I've been wanting to to set up like a an app to do it. uh probably using like Hgraph io but I think it's something around like 80% of the revenue driven to the hideera network is from saucer swap and bonso using smart contracts where you know users of those protocols are buying H bar on market and they're paying transaction fees for smart contracts of those protocols to be able to facilitate commerce or economic transactions lending and borrowing and swapping and all those things. It's a big portion is that.

[00:34:14]>> Well, think about it like this though, Brady. If you're doing a transaction and there's a fee associated with it, the transaction itself has to be more valuable than the fee that you're paying or you wouldn't do it, right? But if and so it's going to be a small fraction of the the value of the exchange itself as far as the fee that's paid. Compare that to if you're actually using the HAR as the payment mechanism, an agent-to-agent payment using HAR or uh for transactional internet of things. If you're buying it specifically for that value transfer, then it is the entire value of the transfer. So, it could create a lot more demand for the H bar.

[00:34:58]It dep I think it depends on which economy you as an individual are bought into like which I mean this sounds silly but like which which nation are you um most aligned to and and you know we have phys like our physical nations and borders and currency um and you know the US dollar has so far been you know national reserve currency people you know participate in commerce mostly uh in in the US and even some other countries with the US dollar. If they're bought into that economy, that's how they're going to view that's the lens in which they view the sort of stability.

[00:35:45]And and what's interesting actually is um what I found is there are there's a large cohort of of DeFi and and retail users on the network that view HAR as the as like their national currency.

[00:36:01]They view everything through the lens of >> H har over time where if they you know if you sell like an NFT >> and you base it in US dollars but have them use HAR for it and H bar's price changes over time but the NFT doesn't change over time. They don't view it as they as the US dollar price that they paid. They view it as like whatever the value of H bar is in the future relative to whatever the value is of the NFT which I found I I was fascinated by that. I can understand it but it's a little bit of a different way of thinking but it's it's I think driven because they're so they're bought into the economy and H bar as like a current as like a a currency or a national currency that they view through everything through the lens of Yeah.

[00:36:50]>> Again I want you know questions and comments from the audience. you let me let us know what you think about this discussion because I think it is really important. Now like you were saying people might have their numer in their head as the US dollar and you're saying that you know some people in the hideera ecosystem use the the h bar as the numer and of course we know at the initial trading with crypto people always talked about sats right because they were talking about satoshi's they were talking about bitcoin because that was the numer so but my question is if you don't have that numer in your head you aren't thinking of something like that as in the case of an agent who doesn't care and you're just wondering what can I use to transfer value from here here to there. What are they going to choose?

[00:37:36]And time will tell. Now Brady, we're over a half an hour into this. I I love the conversation to this point, but I also want to give you an opportunity to talk about Bonzo and if there's anything that's new, of course, Bonso right now has vaults, which allows you to do different DeFi strategy. It also has lending and borrowing. It's the biggest lending and borrowing platform on Hideera. Is there anything you want to talk about when it comes to Bonso?

[00:37:59]>> Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, at Bono Finance Labs, we are supporting the development of the open source Bonso Finance protocol. You know, as you mentioned, uh kick things off with Bonso lend uh allows you to lend and borrow assets within the Hideera ecosystem. So, HR, HRX, USDC, and then a number of uh ecosystem assets like Sauce, Sexsauce, Bonso, Xbonzo, um things of that nature and then and wrapped assets as well. So, wrapped uh wrapped Ethereum and the latest development with regards to Bonzo lens is sort of twofold. First is you know having uh independent risk stewards available to uh run uh deep expert analysis on risks to be able to inform the parameters within the protocol per asset or per market that is um is been figured out and kicking off you know analysis for all of these assets. A lot of them have had um you know supply caps and borrow caps for a while that have been pretty stringent just from a safety perspective. And so we're excited to have been able to figure out the analysis that's needed to be able to lift some of those. Those are actually going to be running through what is the second sort of latest development in uh in Bonso Finance which is the establishment of the DAO and um the first milestone of that being the DAO governance forum. So that forum is live on gov.bonszo.inance finance and you can actually go in and um see the the uh first couple proposals that have been made for risk parameter changes on Bonso lend comment on them you know check out the the methodologies and the analysis that's been performed um by this independent risk steward and uh it is changes to the Dovu uh parameters and then also the addition of uh of wrapped bitcoin in bonso lend and so definitely definitely can go check those out again at gov.bonsza.inance that the changes are going to be made in a centralized way at least today. The goal is wanting to educate users and roll out DAO governance in a way that isn't just all at once and kind of overwhelming. So the forum was established first. We want to get people signed up, involved, educated, starting to comment, starting to sort of understand the process of going from a request for comment all the way to the creation of a proposal. Very similar to how Saucer Swap's DAO governance works.

[00:40:35]Uh we're even using the same uh forum uh discourse for for that to try to keep you know people are already very familiar I think with Saucer Swap. So that should be really helpful. And then voting is going to come online pretty soon here as well. So excited to be able to sort of get back into the action with regards to Bonso lend and those risk parameters going and things like that.

[00:40:56]And then if you have thoughts on that you can I have one more update with regards to vault. I know that was a lot.

[00:41:02]>> Um the second thing is on Bonso vault the addition of Orbit. So Orbit we had talked about earlier their sort of advanced D5 functionality that exists within the Hideera ecosystem. They do limit order books and then part of their development roadmap right now is the addition of other protocols that get surfaced in the UI of Orbit that offer more functionality for their users. So uh order books obviously connect into Saucer Swap. They're going to have yield uh yield opportunities within Orbit that link to Bonso Lend and then eventually to Bonso vaults as well. So being able to within the orbit interface get access to and and exposure to the uh Bonso Finance suite of of tools. They have a vault now on uh two vaults actually on Bonso vaults. So uh it's an HAR paired with Orbit Vault single-sided and a Orbit paired with HAR vault single-sided. So the ability to deposit har or orbit and the vault automatically manages that liquidity in a saucer swap concentrated liquidity pool or a saucer swap v2 pool. It helps uh intelligently rebalance keep that liquidity concentrated. Users earn yield. It's no touch in the sense that they don't have to manually manage concentrated liquidity. for a lot of people that's it's time consuming especially when markets are volatile and it can be a pretty steep educational curve to do that and so we're excited to bring that to the ecosystem and then coming soon is uh a reward mechanism or farming for these vaults so the ability for projects that have a saucer swap concentrates liquidity pool and subsequently vaults that are tied to those um the ability to take their vault liquidity pool tokens and deposit it into a farm and earn incentives for having supplied liquidity to to that vault and and those rewards uh coming from the projects themselves.

[00:43:11]So um you know one of the I think limiting factors for a number of projects in the Hideera ecosystem is how much blue chip liquidity they have in their pool. So if I'm we'll stick with the orbit example. If I'm using Orbit, in order for Orbit to be traded, there needs to be Orbit paired with a HAR or USDC or some sort of major asset and ensuring that users that have har orbit are supplying that liquidity into the DEX liquidity pool because that allows for the trading of the asset. And the more liquidity that's available in there, the less price impact you'll have for larger trades, the uh larger the amount of trades can can be or the volume that takes place. And then also with the vault managing that liquidity automatically, ensuring that both sides are concentrated enough to ensure that those trades go through properly. And so we, you know, we could see this as a big benefit to projects where if they're providing incentives for people to especially provide blue chip liquidity like har into their DEX pool for their asset, that's going to be incredibly beneficial sort of economically to to smooth things out. You know, people being able to trade more efficiently, more effectively. It supports the economy overall.

[00:44:38]>> Well, good stuff. I've always loved participating in the different markets when it comes to Bonzo. We'll talk about some of the opportunities here in a couple minutes, but I do want to get into a couple more things before we get into those opportunities. Number one, Lambda, that is a new DEX that's going to be coming to Hideera. They're going to be doing an airdrop of their token here in I think it's June 19th and it's going to be based off of things that you've already done. So, if you've been participating in Saucer Swap, supplying liquidity, doing trades, things like that, you'll get more when it comes to uh this airdrop. I'm sure there's a few steps that you need to go through. You can go to Lambdlex on X and I'm sure they'll have some instructions on there how you can participate, but I want to make sure to get that out there. Also, there's questions around some staking things. I've gotten some feedback. They are making changes to some of the nodes.

[00:45:29]So, some of them are coming offline and coming back online. I'm not sure if they're changing cloud providers, who's actually operating them, things, things along those lines for the Hideera network. But when they make those changes to the nodes, it can cause issues with people that are staking to those nodes. If you are staked to that node, obviously while they're offline, you aren't getting any rewards. So, you have to pay attention which ones are online, offline. Uh, in the big scheme of things, that's not going to make a huge difference. The one issue that I have heard is when one goes offline, the rewards that you're getting from HAR staking that have been acred don't get automatically triggered or it sounds like that. I'm not sure if that's the case, but I have gotten in touch with the Hideera engineering team to try to find out what the issues are and how to get them addressed if if there are any major issues. And I'm going to try to get all that information and get that to you guys here as soon as I can. But I don't have everything right now. For right now, just try to make sure that you are staked to nodes that are up and uh functioning and I'll try to get some answers on the other stuff uh before too long. Now, I'm going to go into some of these yield opportunities within Hideera DeFi. We're going to start off with supplying liquidity on V1 for Saucer Swap. So, you're going to be supplying a pair of tokens and every trade that takes place, you're going to get a piece of that fee that is collected on each one, which is 3/10en of a percent. Uh, and you get about a quarter of a percent. The rest of it goes to the platform. So, as far as the pairs, Sauce HAR is getting about 7%. HAR BSL is getting about 10. USDC HAR is doing pretty darn good. They're getting 23% if you're supplying that pair. 4% for H bar gib, 24% for har dovu, 8.5% har pack, and har steam, you're getting 8 and a quarter over on Bzo. So, this is for lending and borrowing. If you're lending your tokens, these are going to be some of the rates you'll get. Uh USDC, you're getting 1.2%. If you're supplying the BZO token, it's 5 a.5%. And then the next thing that I want to touch on, of course, on the right here, you'll see what you can borrow them for. So, this is what you're charged if you're borrowing it. Dovu is at about 1% and I know that the Dovu staking rate in the past has been upwards of, you know, 8 10%. I've seen it as low as like 2 or 3%. I'm not sure exactly where it is right now, but it certainly makes sense right now if you want to borrow Dovu on Bonso uh to be able to get that staking rate. So you'd supply something like H bar or USDC, you borrow against that at 1% for DOVU and then you'd be able to stake DOVU and hopefully get that higher rate. So that's the how the the lending and borrowing could potentially work and some of the opportunities that are getting opened up. And then taking a look at some of those vaults that Brady was talking about, we have the dual asset vaults that are supplying liquidity on version two on Saucer Swap.

[00:48:24]And then you can also have single-sided, which is trying to maximize how much of that single asset you had. You still have to pair it with another asset, but the vaults try to maximize how much you have in the single asset. So USDC H bar, you're getting 45% over the past 30 days. For USDC, that's a single asset, you're getting 31%. Dovous at 26%. For the dual asset vault, USDC sauce, you're getting just about 19%. And for H bar, you're getting in the upper teens. All right, Brady, this one has been a marathon. Is there anything else you'd like to touch on before we jump off?

[00:48:58]>> No, nothing else. This has been really great. I think this is one of the longer longer ones that we've uh we've had. Um but really, really good discussion. I am very curious about the comments from people and uh and sort of questions that come through on that. You know, curious what they say. So, >> yeah, I'm I'm looking forward to the feedback. Like you said, it was a great conversation as always. Thank you for hopping on and I better get to editing because, as you said, it's a pretty long one. So, we'll see you in a couple weeks there, Brady.

[00:49:23]>> Sounds great. Thanks, man. Appreciate it.