Can Singapore’s dialects survive or are they becoming history? | Deep Dive

[00:00:00]So, everyone, welcome back to another episode of a deep dive with Tiffany and myself, Steven. So, Tiff, are you a dialect speaker? Do you Yeah? Do you speak any?

[00:00:07]>> do actually. So, I'm Hokkien and I grew up with my grandmother who only spoke Hokkien. So, I That's That's how I picked up the the dialect.

[00:00:16]>> Okay, so you're fluent in it?

[00:00:17]>> I wouldn't say fluent.

[00:00:19]>> Okay, okay, I'm Hokkien too, but I know just enough to order my my mee pok, you know, and >> Survivor skills.

[00:00:25]>> yeah, just the essentials. So, when I speak dialects nowadays, they call it deadlect.

[00:00:29]>> Oh, okay.

[00:00:30]>> It's a variation of that.

[00:00:31]>> All right.

[00:00:32]>> Okay, anyhow, [laughter] over time, we've had one film that's been making the news, sparking a much larger conversation about dialects in Singapore. The film, Dear You, that's what it's called, was released in a Mandarin dub while the original Teochew version was limited to selected screenings. And a bit of public outcry there saying, you know, why not see it in its original splendor in Teochew?

[00:00:54]>> Yeah, but and actually since then, IMDA has approved more Teochew screenings of Dear You, and the authorities have said they're actually reviewing guidelines on dialect use in films. Um, but I think today we want to ask, in an increasingly modern, English-speaking Singapore, what purpose do dialects serve these days?

[00:01:14]And also, are they living languages that meet real needs? Or have they just become symbols of cultural identity?

[00:01:27]>> To help us unpack this issue, we have with us today Lu Liu, uh, assistant professor in linguistics and multilingual studies at NTU.

[00:01:35]>> Hello.

[00:01:35]>> And also Ong Yi Ting, a 24-year-old local content creator known for her Hokkien TikTok videos.

[00:01:41]>> Hi everyone. Ducky ho, my name's Yi Ting. I think before we start, um, let's give people a bit of context. So, for those who don't know, um, Chinese dialects are not permitted on free-to-air television and radio with some exceptions provided in recent years. Uh, movie releases in general are required to be dubbed in Mandarin, and which is, you know, I wanted to set the scene before we get straight into it. Um let's begin with the film itself, Diao Yu. So, the initial 4,800 tickets for the Teochew version was quickly sold out. And then there were calls for more dialect screenings. I mean, look, I want to start with you. Were you surprised by the response, um you know, people calling for more of that Teochew version?

[00:02:22]>> Um I don't think I'm I was necessarily surprised. I mean, nowadays people are quite used to being able to access, you know, movies in any language that they they like, right? So, people are used to streaming um services, uh even songs on Spotify, stuff like that, right? Um so, in terms of the cinema, right? So, it it seems a bit strange to them and maybe a bit uh regressive that they want to watch something in its original language and they can't, right? So, that that's one issue. And and secondly, of course, uh we also know that uh people are quite aware of how things have changed, right?

[00:02:58]Since the uh 1970s and 1980s uh in the in terms of dialect speaking and in terms of use of Mandarin. And they're well aware that circumstances have have moved long time ago.

[00:03:09]Uh so, they're a bit, you know, uh >> Okay.

[00:03:12]>> frustrated, right? In terms of why they can't >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:16]>> Yeah. And just to help people further understand because our position Singapore's position on dialects is something that was intentional. I mean, we had a speak Mandarin campaign that was launched in 1979 where Mandarin was promoted as the common language. So, they sort of said, "Let's stop using dialects. Let's all switch to Mandarin."

[00:03:31]You know, and the idea was to improve communication, support bilingualism, and also strengthen social cohesion because it means that we spoke, rather, a common language, right? But now I guess the question is we're saying, "We've done it so well that the dialects are kind of almost phased out. So, maybe it's time [clears throat] to just change the the the laws a bit and know, loosen it. Yeah. Be a bit more chill.

[00:03:53]Let any language because what's the big deal, right?

[00:03:55]>> Yeah, I mean let's bring eating into the conversation because you know, eating you are known as that Hokkien girl. You you make Hokkien content online.

[00:04:04]Let's let's talk a little bit about how you started on this journey.

[00:04:07]>> I think I uploaded my very first TikTok video. Back then TikTok wasn't really a big thing. So I uploaded one video of me and my grandmother conversing Hokkien and then I went to bed. I think it was like 3:00 to 4:00 a.m. and then next morning I woke up. I I just blew up online and the comments were all like, "Oh, youngsters still can speak Hokkien nowadays?" Or like, "Oh, I never knew Gen Zs could speak Hokkien." And then that was when I realized I kind of had like a superpower because growing up was very natural to me. Yeah, and I think [snorts] I picked up Hokkien because when I was about 3:00 to 6:00 years old, like people would be going to nursery, kindergarten, but I barely went to those schools because I was moving houses a lot. So I was always at home listening to my parents and my grandparents' conversations and then they would play Hokkien songs and they would consume media from Taiwan online, not those on TV because those on TV are also dubbed in Mandarin as well. So I think when I was like a kid, I was like a little sponge, you know, so whatever episode was all dialects and Mandarin.

[00:05:07]>> So speaking Hokkien for you was quite natural because it was something you did at home.

[00:05:10]>> That's right.

[00:05:10]>> And I guess you carried on to use it to converse with your grandmother.

[00:05:14]>> The older generation. I mean I I I only learned because I realized my parents were speaking in a third language. And they were talking about us.

[00:05:23]>> It was their secret language.

[00:05:24]>> They would code switch in front of everyone.

[00:05:26]>> Correct. So I knew if I really asked them, "What did you mean?" they would not tell me. So I would pick out like certain words and I'll be like, "So what does this word mean?" And then eventually I pieced in my head that they were just talking bad about us.

[00:05:38]>> So the question now is with dialects being almost non-existent in a country like Singapore, why has there been this recent uproar for people saying, "Yeah, I really to have this the show back in its original, you know, Hokkien language." Why is it such a big deal? Or Teochew, sorry. Teochew, yeah.

[00:05:54]But yeah, it could have been in Hokkien.

[00:05:55]I mean, it could have been in any dialect. But the question is, why are we now clamoring for this, uh, you know?

[00:06:00]>> I think we need to, first of all, understand like the situation of of, you know, these Chinese dialects, right? So, Hokkien, Teochew, Cantonese, even. Um, so these are the major, uh, Chinese dialects that are still spoken in Singapore. Um, so one way to characterize it is that, uh, we have different levels of endangerment, right?

[00:06:17]So, for these languages, I would say that we are between severely endangered and critically endangered. So, that's like one and a half steps away from extinction. So, we no longer have intergenerational transmission. So, parents no longer use them, uh, these languages with their children.

[00:06:30]Um, so if the current trend continues in terms of demographics and and so on, I would say that in 20 30 years, um, nobody will be speaking these languages >> Wow, 20 30 years.

[00:06:41]>> Yeah, but then then I'll ask you, so what? Because if no one's using it, I mean, have we really lost anything?

[00:06:47]Because we were still all communicating with each other effectively.

[00:06:49]>> Uh, exactly. Which is why there's this, uh, reaction, I suppose, that that people want to be able to reconnect somehow with these languages that they know that their grandparents or parents, uh, used to speak. Um, and and of course, I mean, part of the reaction is also from the older generation themselves who used to live through those those days when they could, you know, access media, uh, in these languages.

[00:07:09]Um, so personally, I mean, it it feels a bit cruel that they can't do this, uh, still in this DNA age. Um, given that we know that, you know, these dialects are no longer a threat to Mandarin. We know that, uh, these languages are literally dying.

[00:07:23]>> I can understand why why people want to watch it in its natural language. I mean, in you know, in what it was shot at, uh, as. But because with the the screen that I went to, it was full house, and it was filled with seniors.

[00:07:37]>> Right.

[00:07:37]>> So, I mean, a couple of them needed toilet breaks in between.

[00:07:40]>> [laughter] >> But you know, it was very they And I think >> it it goes back a little bit to do with the fact that I mean already, you know, cinema movie movie viewing in cinemas are a little bit of a dying trade. I mean some people will say yeah, it is like nobody goes there. And then for these old people to then come out and to be able to watch it, I think it was some form of them wanting to reconnect with a language that they are familiar or even some of them are not familiar with. So, my parents went to watch it and they said half of the conversation they didn't quite get it, but they felt, you know, there was there was the feels. Yeah.

[00:08:13]>> Yeah, there was the feels.

[00:08:14]>> I I guess part of it is also you want to watch something as is in its authentic language, you know. So, when it's dubbed it's not the same. I mean, even when we watch shows on Netflix and you you dub it to the English version it doesn't quite feel the same, you know what I mean?

[00:08:26]So, I guess do we do we lose? I guess is is some of it literally lost in translation when you >> Yeah, of course. I mean, when we talk about I mean, we know that for languages, right? So, when we translate one language to another we lose certain cultural nuances. So, there's no equivalent translation for certain words, for example. I mean, in Singlish shok, right? So, this idea of shok. You can't really translate it into English.

[00:08:48]So, that's one. And second in terms of the actors' original performance, right?

[00:08:53]The tones, certain expressions, and so on. You would definitely lose those those things when you translate or you dub it over through another language. Right? So, these are the two key things.

[00:09:03]And of course in the context of the movie itself, certain scenes and certain lines if delivered in a completely different language >> might have a very different social connotation.

[00:09:12]>> When you are making your videos eating online, do you, you know, purposely think to yourself, okay, this I have to, you know, say it in Hokkien as opposed to doing it in English or Mandarin because the, you know, the nuance is different. Do you actually make a clear distinction?

[00:09:27]>> Yeah, I think because people are so used to seeing me as the Hokkien girl. To be honest, if I were to make my videos in Mandarin or English they'll be like, "Hey, can you speak Hokkien?"

[00:09:35]>> [laughter] >> Okay, I want to hear you speak in Hokkien. But I do spend a lot of time editing my videos because I need to add in both English or you know Chinese subtitles. Yeah, because I do feel like nowadays the viewers on my platform, they are ranging from you know Gen Alpha all the way up to people in their 50s.

[00:09:51]So I need to you know account for the fact that the younger generation really don't understand this language at all.

[00:09:55]It's just like me trying to watch a Korean film that I wouldn't understand a single thing. Yeah, but I think recently a lot of comments that I got under my videos is that they're asking you know why is it that we can learn the languages like Korean, Spanish, Japanese in schools. We can watch these other languages on Netflix, but we can't watch our own dialect language online or not online, but mostly you know on our traditional mainstream media as well as I learn it in school.

[00:10:25]>> To be fair, learning the languages when you learn French for instance, you're learning the official French language, not the French dialects. I mean French has the dialects, you know, you know, Japanese even has dialects, you know. So So I think we are learning still the official language, but yeah, the question now being that why can't we just chill a bit more and like maybe treat it as a foreign language film and just leave it in its you know original language.

[00:10:48]>> When the government says things like it's reviewing the framework, what do you think it needs to review?

[00:10:54]>> From a social linguistic perspective, right? So in terms of reviewing the framework and and hopefully changing the policy. So I mean it's not just about cinema and movies, right? It's also about mainstream TV and radio stations. So we are in we have a certain situation now where you know K-pop is actually permissible, right? On Chinese radio stations, but not Cantonese songs, but not Hokkien songs and and so on, which is a bit strange.

[00:11:18]>> Is there any danger of influencing young ones and adulterating the you know the Mandarin?

[00:11:23]>> Oh no, I mean Mandarin and and these other languages, I mean okay, from a linguistic perspective, these are mutually unintelligible languages. So in in of similarity, it's actually very low.

[00:11:33]>> Okay.

[00:11:34]>> Right? Uh which means that they don't necessarily interfere in in terms of how people actually learn Mandarin. In fact, the main language now that interferes with Mandarin is English.

[00:11:43]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:11:44]>> Okay. So, you're saying that if I learn dialect, it's not going to affect my my grasp over the the the Mandarin language.

[00:11:51]>> No, it's not it's not I mean it's not I mean in fact, it could help. It could facilitate because in terms of the script, right? So, it shares a certain script. You might in terms of cultural similarities and of certain expressions and then so on and might help you better engage with with Mandarin as well. Um but in terms of, you know, pronunciation and so on, uh actually they share very little similarities.

[00:12:12]>> Because I guess we're also formally learning Mandarin in schools for like a number of years. Whereas you're saying just let the dialects come about every now and then. We're not saying in primary school you will now learn Hokkien. You know, you will now learn Cantonese.

[00:12:24]>> I think there's also a difference between the the the dialect that we speak at home and the and and whether we can learn it in school, right? Because I mean, Eating, would you consider yourself effectively I don't know what's the word. I I wouldn't even call it >> trilingual bilingual >> trilingual. Yeah, effectively. Would you be able to like do your Hokkien fluently?

[00:12:42]>> Um I would say if you want me to speak and write in Hokkien, honestly, I don't know what is the correct writing system to follow as well. So, I do I heard that there are writing systems for like Cantonese, Teochew, and Hokkien, but honestly, we don't have enough people who are proficient in that to even teach this language in the first place. So, >> Speaking?

[00:13:00]>> Speaking is really true, you know, learning from the older generation.

[00:13:04]>> But you you would like read the news, for example?

[00:13:06]>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. If I were to give you a news script Um we've practiced, yes, but you know, if you were to give me the script and want me to deliver on the spot, right? It's no way I can do that.

[00:13:15]Yeah.

[00:13:15]>> And would the older generation, like the people who taught you the the the dialect, would they be able to do that?

[00:13:21]>> There will be some people who can do that. So, for instance, recently like I received like a eight episodes for like a Hokkien drama. Yeah, so I looked through my script but I I needed to take weeks. I needed weeks actually to actually sit down and translate it into Hokkien.

[00:13:34]>> Okay, so there is still a difference between how you you know what the one that you converse and if you are doing it you know properly.

[00:13:41]>> because you never grew up learning Hokkien per se, right? It was just something you >> hear >> Yeah, hear and you learn by ear so to speak.

[00:13:48]>> That's right. And interestingly, for every phrase in Hokkien, for example, like um fruit, some people say guachi, some will say kueh chi, some will say chui ko. Like there are so many variations to it because >> But it's the same kind of fruit or the same kind of fruit.

[00:14:01]>> [laughter] >> It's just fruit. Oh, there's >> For fruit, there's just generic fruits.

[00:14:05]>> There's three different ways.

[00:14:06]>> Why? Why is that?

[00:14:08]>> Because in Mandarin there is a phrase called san li pu tong diao si li pu tong yin which which kind of means like every step you take like in a in a olden village, right? Every step you take, every few steps you take, the intonation changes. Yeah, and then afterwards the the tone of the language and everything changes but because there's no proper writing system to lock everything down.

[00:14:25]>> Now, I guess some people are also saying that if we lose these dialects, are we losing a part of our culture? Is that part of the the cultural heritage lost and gone forever?

[00:14:34]>> The variation or the version of of Hokkien and Teochew, for example, that's spoken in Malaysia and Singapore, it's actually unique to our region.

[00:14:40]>> Oh.

[00:14:41]>> So, we are talking here about, you know, lots of language mixing between Malay, right? And Tamil as well. Um so, some of these words originally were actually Malay words that we have, you know, come to see as part of Hokkien vocabulary.

[00:14:53]So, stuff like roti.

[00:14:55]Something.

[00:14:55]>> That's true.

[00:14:56]>> I I also think to myself, you know, we have this restriction on, you know, our free-to-air television and you know, most of our radio time belts, right? But a lot of the content that we are receiving these days or you know, we are consuming these days are online. Like the stuff that you make, Eating. So, does a policy like the you know, like this whole you know, make sure dialects are not in the you know, your mainstream media. Does that really hold water anymore when everything is available online?

[00:15:23]>> So when I my video first blew up, I remember there was just one comment.

[00:15:27]Someone commented on if Lee Kuan Yew were to watch our video, he would be rolling in his grave right now.

[00:15:31]>> Wow. [laughter] Wow.

[00:15:33]>> Yeah. But I don't think that you know, given the context back then in the 1970s, right? The Speak Mandarin campaign was necessary, right? It was very hard to get people to understand one another if there isn't like a common language spoken. But I guess [snorts] as um time goes, with the new context where the current generation, the Gen Alpha and Gen Zs can't speak Mandarin, I do think that it's time to, you know, review this policy because as much as we can um continue to, you know, we suppress these on traditional media, there is a group of people, if I were to observe from my comments section over 5 to 6 years, right? A lot of young people are reaching out to me and say, "Hey, can you make more videos where you actually teach Hokkien because I really want to converse with my grandma.

[00:16:15]Um I really want to be able to understand them, to speak to them." And I'll just say, "I'm so sorry, but my Hokkien is not that good."

[00:16:21]>> [laughter] >> But I try my best to add subtitles to teach in my videos. But there is a demand, there is a desire to pick up this language. And also among the older generation who are saying that, "Hey, um please make more videos so we can continue to hear this language since we don't hear it anywhere else anymore."

[00:16:37]>> Yeah, so how much of it is truly wanting to learn so they can communicate to an older generation that will soon be moving on? And how much of it is uh exotic, you know, the novelty factor?

[00:16:49]Like they want to get more of this content because it's entertaining for them rather than that they are learning something from from you.

[00:16:55]>> It's because I like to, you know, converse with my viewers as I know be to reply to their DMs or just reply to their comments. Some of them will say, "Oh, because of you, I want to learn Hokkien because you make it sound so nice." And I guess because I make the consistent effort to not use vulgarities in my videos as well. Most of the Singaporeans would use that that would the vulgarities would be the first few phrases that they pick up. And I guess it's the same across all languages when we watch K-drama, you know, sometimes you pick up the funnier words first.

[00:17:23]Yeah, but then from there, then they realize that, "Oh, actually, dialect is something that they live and breathe every day." That's when they um, gain the awareness that, for instance, a Hokkien mee, or when you walk past that Amoy Street, Upper Hokkien Street, like all these are traces of our dialects.

[00:17:37]Yeah, and that's when they start to um, click and realize that, "Oh, these are all part of Singapore's history." Even Singlish is heavy influenced by Hokkien.

[00:17:46]Then, yeah, I guess it it does pique the interest of the younger generation. But whether do we have enough and do we have proper facilities for them to pick up the language? That would be another thing, you know.

[00:17:55]>> But I wonder also if dialects can be uh, economically unnecessary, but culturally necessary. Like we we need to preserve it even if it doesn't, you know, help us as a country. I mean, is there a is there a, you know, case to be made for that?

[00:18:12]>> But someone argue that it's such a small portion of the population, such a small number that it doesn't matter.

[00:18:18]>> But we are entering aging population though. So, I don't think there is a lot of people who actually need this language because now a lot of this correspondence are mostly in Mandarin and English or our four official languages.

[00:18:31]To be honest, right, when um, government come to me for our campaigns, right, they're always asking me to translate all these into Hokkien.

[00:18:38]Yeah, and there is a need for this. I do feel like, you know, we are always asking um, our elderly to like, "Oh, hey, keep up with technology, be more savvy, be careful of this scam that scam." But are we speaking in the language that they are understanding? We are not.

[00:18:51]>> But I mean, at the same time, it's a diminishing problem in a way, right? As you mentioned, right, if once the elderly people are no longer with us, then it ceases to be a problem. So, I guess the bigger question is, what do Singaporeans really value in in terms of cultural heritage and ways of life?

[00:19:08]If the emphasis is always on economic development, always on, you know, making money and and profit.

[00:19:14]Um then where do we see ourselves in in in terms of who we are, right? And where we came from, well, the kind of ways of life, the food that we used to eat, uh and and and so on, right? Um so as we also mentioned um previously, so for the young people today, I mean, it's dialects are something that they have not lost because they've never spoken them.

[00:19:36]>> Mhm. Right.

[00:19:37]>> But to them there's no sense of loss.

[00:19:38]>> that you you haven't >> So there's no feeling of loss in in that sense, right? So even for myself, so I can only speak Foochow in extremely limited ways. I can count one to 10. I can say bye-bye. I can say eat rice. So basically dinner table kinds of conversation with my grandparents. Um but beyond that I can't, right? And if you ask me if do I feel a sense of loss, right? In terms of Foochow and so on, I can't say I I do feel a sense of loss because I've never had it.

[00:20:03]>> Mhm.

[00:20:04]>> I can't transmit it to my own son.

[00:20:06]Right? To him, Foochow is completely irrelevant, right? To him and his social circle when he grows up. And so on. And this is going to be the reality for most Singaporeans >> Yeah.

[00:20:15]>> in 20 years' time.

[00:20:16]>> So I guess what what you guys are also suggesting is that now that we give people the option uh not just say that you have to speak Mandarin, but allow for these either these other dialects to be in our society, in our daily lives where people can use it freely, enjoy movies about it because anyway at this point the numbers are so so small that there is no way it's going to uh uh diminish or change the fact that we've learned formal Mandarin already, right?

[00:20:42]>> Yeah. Yeah. So why not, I guess, you know, just loosen the guidelines >> Yeah, it will just lend a bit more color to our lives, you know?

[00:20:48]>> Yeah. And I I feel quite sad when, you know, you guys were talking about the fact that this is going to die out in the next 20 to 30 years because honestly, I would like to teach my kids.

[00:20:57]>> Mhm.

[00:20:58]>> Even if not to be fluent in it, but to be able to, you know, do a smattering of my dialect. Eating, if you one day have your own children, would you would you want to teach them Hokkien?

[00:21:10]>> Oh, I would definitely do it. I do feel like learning and knowing your dialect is a superpower. It's like, you know, when you go to the market, you engage in conversations with auntie and uncles, you will naturally become their goddaughter or >> [laughter] >> You break the barrier of very quickly, right?

[00:21:26]>> And I think, although people say that there's no commercial value to it, I would say throughout my years of I'm not studying, throughout my years of internships and working, being in the media industry, I really gained so many, like you know, express passes because I know dialect. You know, when people realize, "Oh, you're also Hokkien? I'm going to take better care of you."

[00:21:46]Things like that. And I do see from my comment section people say that, you know, uh yeah, you know, we still have people like um Hokkien Huay Kuan, organizations like that who actually do take care of like um the next gen who >> Right.

[00:21:58]>> wants to start something off their own.

[00:21:59]Like there's always these connections or like what we call like sneaky links here and there, right? Like it does help, you know, value add to whatever you're working on.

[00:22:08]>> But a lot of these dialect associations are also finding very hard to recruit new blood.

[00:22:12]>> Mm, that's right.

[00:22:13]>> Yeah. Um yeah, so I mean I I I know a few people who are in these associations, and every year they do a call out, and, you know, they maybe might get like one or two young people.

[00:22:22]And when I say young, it's like 40s. But I think the real need here, you know, for these languages to still stay is to be able to com- communicate with an older generation. But when that generation pass, um maybe this dialect will be, you know, some form of a symbol of heritage. That's it. A a connection.

[00:22:39]>> Plus, I do feel like knowing the knowing our own dialect also kind of grounds us morally in terms [clears throat] of um that family values, and maybe in terms of culture. Because I feel like we're living in a world where we're so susceptible to global ideas, right? I do think that knowing our own dialects, it means that we are more connected to our family as well. And with that, right? It kind of gives us the a greater confidence to engage in global ideas that is coming in all directions. Because I think nowadays, if you were to go up to a Singaporean and ask them, "Oh, hey, what does it mean to be a Singaporean?" A lot of youngsters can't give you an answer.

[00:23:14]>> Yeah, that's true.

[00:23:15]>> Maybe they'll be able to answer you in English.

[00:23:17]>> How are you, bro?

[00:23:18]How are you? Then then [laughter] they can reply.

[00:23:26]>> [laughter] >> He's trying. [laughter] He's trying.

[00:23:33]>> He's trying. So, you know, dialects if we're talking about this and then in Singapore, you know, we've had dialects that are a bit foreign to hear nowadays.

[00:23:40]What are your thoughts about it? Do you miss it? Do you wish we had more of it?

[00:23:43]And should we be a bit more chill about it overall in this day and age? Drop us your notes and let us know what you think. We'd love to hear from you. But otherwise, that's it for this week's deep dive. Bye for now.

[00:23:51]>> See you.