A Table For Fortune | William T Vollmann

Added: 2026-05-13

[00:00:00]thing is so like >> the reason why Table of Fortune is his best book I I'm saying >> tell me >> is because >> he's so so every time he goes into one of these modes where he's like >> um we're going to talk about the Nespers war >> right in uh uh dying grass we're going to talk about the Jesuits pulling up and it's always you know the earliest sav you know savage encounters between >> you know the foundational peoples that formed America >> but with able and I think I heard that the rifles is more like this. I was going to go to the [ __ ] library but I took a nap because it's Good Friday to get the rifles cuz I wanted to look at it a little bit. But so he the reason why the book is so big is because it's just a dude who joins the CIA in 1967.

[00:00:47]>> Yeah.

[00:00:48]>> And he gets married at 20 out of he was in the Vietnam War and he and he gets picked He says something when he's out with the Vietnam War about and a CIA dude's like, "You got to join the CIA."

[00:00:59]>> Yeah.

[00:00:59]>> Bro's name is Elliot.

[00:01:01]>> He got home, he joins the CIA, gets married to Sally. This woman Sally >> and then >> the form Well, it's funny because he when he was back in Vietnam, he got topped up by this little girl Mai, who's like possibly underage, >> but you know, she was she was really But he lied. It's like a joke. But then so so like and uh and uh [ __ ] Sally like won't top him up like once he gets married. So he's always thinking about little mine or and it's so involvement just in his bag with this >> cuz I'm also looking at some a lot of his like transit which is crazy. I mean he Dolores mode he got he got many modes >> you'll see >> but >> in the studio.

[00:01:39]>> Well yeah I mean I'm reading I'm read I'm listening to the you'll really see.

[00:01:43]>> Yeah. But the reason why the book is so long is because the structure is basically like um formation in the marriage. Yeah. Right.

[00:01:51]>> And it's just so funny. Remember last week I was talking about how uh how a good book like shows you a good work of art shows you the futility and the sadness and the >> sure >> of life.

[00:02:04]>> It takes you back to life.

[00:02:06]>> Uh or the opposite.

[00:02:10]>> No no no. Well, yeah. He should take you back and like talk.

[00:02:15]>> But no, it okay. Like basically like the way the marriage is is so funny because like the way he talks about Sally, he's like he just wants like a bigger house.

[00:02:26]>> Yeah.

[00:02:26]>> He just wants all these like things.

[00:02:28]>> Yeah. Which is there anything wrong with that?

[00:02:30]>> Bill told me an amazing story.

[00:02:32]>> There's nothing wrong with that. But if that if that what' you say?

[00:02:36]>> No, I just realized I told the story the last time I was on >> Yeah. There's nothing wrong with that.

[00:02:40]But you know that mentality that that kind of that instinct to that you know for years as a certain type of person you want like protection and like uh safety and stuff but that's not the that's not the proper orientation to be a leader of other domains of of society.

[00:03:00]>> Okay. Yeah.

[00:03:01]>> You know what I'm saying? But the point is he's going back. He he's toggling between um just like the domestic life of getting married and they're eventually going to have a kid whose name is Matthew and it's it's a tr it's a troubled kid.

[00:03:14]>> Yeah.

[00:03:15]>> And of course >> he even says in the intro it's sort of like he was writing about >> so there's like a non-fiction intro where >> and the book has a lot of fiction elements.

[00:03:25]>> It's kind of like the kid.

[00:03:27]>> Yeah. It's he's looking back at his at his daughter, you know, and she passed away.

[00:03:32]>> So that's there's this personal element that is driving the book forward and he stays with it and and it's because he's so the thing is in fathers and crows he's so [ __ ] aerodite. He could jump around all over the place in the he in Champagne he in the French perspective.

[00:03:49]in the native perspective. He he talking about encounter he had a bar at the tenderloin and it's awe inspiring but but this is a [ __ ] novel bro it's a [ __ ] novel and then he back at the office Elliot his code name is Dave >> but he basically got to go through the decades to it's about 911 >> so he got to get to 911 >> so it takes him about 200 pages to get through one year >> so like I'm in like 75 now >> you're just living with them >> yes you're living with them and then you're going back into the CIA and I didn't understand and and how all the [ __ ] in the Middle East had to do with the separation of East and West Germany.

[00:04:27]>> So, there's a lot of political stuff.

[00:04:29]>> Oh, it's like it's his opus about led >> modern America.

[00:04:35]It's exactly back in this I'm listening to Trump talk about super relevant.

[00:04:39]>> It's insane relevant. It's exactly relevant >> and it's >> what's the title from? Um he go he goes into I think a the table is something like at the CIA if you sit at the table um he mentioned he repres for fortune >> table of fortune >> and >> so you set the table like an alter fortune.

[00:04:58]>> Yeah but it's also four parts which is like four legs of the table.

[00:05:02]>> Um you know what I'm saying?

[00:05:05]>> Yeah. Uh I mean he he he he knows >> I still think my favorite is Royal Family.

[00:05:10]>> Haven't read Royal Family. Haven't read Royal Family.

[00:05:13]>> Have you heard that?

[00:05:14]>> No. No. I actually haven't read any Vulman.

[00:05:17]>> I know.

[00:05:17]>> That's why Harold doesn't like doesn't want to talk about it cuz you didn't tell me you didn't talk about He only read the first part with the beginnings.

[00:05:23]We have all night. I mean, why rush it?

[00:05:26]And yeah, maybe I do want to talk first before you take the reigns.

[00:05:29]>> The the royal family is amazing because >> it's like a it's like a hooker fantasia that's really really long that starts out as a noir but becomes something else.

[00:05:40]>> Okay. So, so he has a trans trilogy. So, I'm reading the third book of this man's trilogy, which is Paul. This one came out in 2020. Came out Lucky Star. No one read it, dude.

[00:05:50]>> I mean, it's insane.

[00:05:51]>> Lucky Star. It's actually supposed to be called The Lesbian.

[00:05:53]>> Well, it's about insisted that it be called >> this one. Yo, this one uh >> I almost sent it to you, but it was about 4 in the morning and I knew you were out and I didn't want to text you at 4 in the morning cuz I've been on a nocturnal mode. What am I going to do?

[00:06:06]>> I seen this pod where Vulman talking to this like lesbian like uh uh feminist scholar. Bowman is being so funny on the pod, bro. It's the funniest part ever.

[00:06:16]He's like, "Well, you're just >> I'm here. You're just such a hot chick and I've been friends with you for so long and sometimes I just like to He's like, "I I tend to only like lesbian pornography because I don't like to see another man and I'm just so getting in touch with the feminine side of myself and I'm just like I was dying." But this one is just like him chilling at the bar in Sacramento.

[00:06:44]>> Um, and a lot of trans >> Lucky Star Lucky Star the lesbian.

[00:06:49]>> A lot of trans like hookers and stuff and he's like just hopping all around.

[00:06:54]>> That's the book that got him dropped from Viking cuz they were like right >> they were upset about the way he like I think the word [ __ ] is the book a lot >> broman dude. But the thing that >> could be disrespecting our goats like it's just so >> I don't know what effect because bro >> so I mean it is crazy that he won a national book award and he >> for Europe central.

[00:07:15]>> Yeah. And then he can't >> it's stupid as [ __ ] because he's once an elder statesman. We don't have that many in America right now. We have >> Dillo Pinchin >> who don't speak I mean I mean none of them like say anything.

[00:07:29]>> Yeah. Yeah. Grayson Ellis who does speak un.

[00:07:32]>> Yeah. Yeah. He speaks a lot, doesn't he?

[00:07:34]>> I love Brett. Um, but yeah. Anyways, um, >> I don't speak at all on this podcast, dude. I just be quiet.

[00:07:40]>> Uh, so what what is hitting so hard about Table for Fortune for you? Is it the fancy?

[00:07:45]>> Well, first of all, I mean, I know he even says it in the beginning. I mean, dude, >> and what's the what's the style like?

[00:07:51]>> Okay, the style I like.

[00:07:53]>> No, but dude, it's [ __ ] because he has two modes. He has two modes. One is this sort of um uh adorned like beautiful like Yeah. Yeah. like poetic um mode and then the other one is just sort of historical clinical mode.

[00:08:10]>> Yeah.

[00:08:10]>> Right. Cuz he's reading all these [ __ ] >> like he's reading the entire Jesuit like newsletter that ran from like 1600 to 18 like all 20. So he's like mimicking this mode and it's sort of anthropological and sort of clinical but this is like these dude I I don't know I also I think it's because and I was like mystified and I was surprised because it was a history of the CIA. I thought it was going to be like um rising the the history of violence which is sort of these like it just like their a collection of essays.

[00:08:41]>> You're really deep on moment right now huh?

[00:08:43]>> Of course. Of course. I mean, dude, I Bro, my my notes from the ice shirt are so funny because I read the ice shirt when I lived in Berkeley with Rosie.

[00:08:51]>> Oh, you did?

[00:08:52]>> Yeah. So, my notes are like But the thing for me then was like I was just so shocked >> um about how unabashedly tells how violent and savage things were back then. You know what I mean? Like that was as a young man, I was kind of I was so I was so awed by the the aerudition.

[00:09:10]You know what I'm saying? And then I read uh Rainbow Stories. I'm going to say all this to [ __ ] Ronald, but when I was uh uh when I when I was in Humble and I had a I got in a huge fight with Viva and I and I got my bag, I peeled out of the [ __ ] weed farm with like a couple bands, but I couldn't put him in the ATM because you can only put like 500 at a time. Um so I just had a shitload of cash and I drove to the border of California and Oregon to this uh campground. I had the box van, the military box van. And that's when I read the whole second part of Donkey Hot.

[00:09:45]>> Oh, nice.

[00:09:45]>> Over over like two weeks just sitting at this campsite. And then I and then I that's when I uh right after that read the rainbow stories >> and I was just by myself at the campground for two weeks. So those are the two most formative moments for me >> than that because he also has like urban profane.

[00:10:01]>> Indeed. Indeed. He does have Yeah. And then he has that mode too. He has three modes. He has three modes. Um but this mode of staying with because the thing and he knows so much he doesn't stay with the narrative like when you finish Rainbow Stories and Ice Shirt it's like you got this whole pastiche >> but the fact that he returns to him going home to Sally >> and like bro and then he's like his little Sally's little sister like yeah >> he kind of lusting over Sally's little sister Lorraine and then like and it's just sort of like the uh the uh the suburb urban life with this CIA guy and like getting a new It makes me so It makes me He speaks like lovingly but so residedly and like sort of sadly about >> marriage and the long-term domestic life, >> but it's written I do think it's kind of written in a sci-fi way. Like it's >> how sci-fi? I don't understand that at all.

[00:10:57]>> Because it's like um >> kind of jagged.

[00:11:00]>> Oh, the CIA parts, >> but also the the marriage parts, I think, as well. And and I was talking to Isaac about it, his editor, and he thinks that he was like inspired by a lot of the sort of like old sci-fi pulpy books he likes, >> and he's paying homage to that in the domestic writing as well as the CIA writing.

[00:11:16]>> Okay. Okay.

[00:11:17]>> Cuz it has this sort of like these big swaths of sort of like artificial narration even with when you're within the family part. It's not written soulfully or something.

[00:11:26]>> Well, it's written beautifully and it's a it's a third person and the third person is some first person guy. It's third person about this guy Elliot whose code name is Dave, all caps, >> when he goes into the CIA office, but it's told from someone in the CIA. It's like told from the CIA's perspective, somebody in the CIA, but but it's it's just really distant third and it's like it goes >> mean by sci-fi like the rhythms of it are are weird.

[00:11:54]>> But then he goes into this >> and then it's like whenever he's doing like CIA like code speak, it's like written in [ __ ] typewriter font. font changes in the beginning. I was like, I just want to get back to and I also know and I looked ahead in part two and she's the thing is she wants to have a baby really bad. Yeah.

[00:12:11]>> And she and he's like working his job and then you know Matthew is coming which is the son which is a standin for his daughter >> and he said he says it's not but I mean it kind of >> No, he does. He says in the beginning >> doesn't seem that I thought in a previous when I read it the intro said like don't look at it as my daughter too much.

[00:12:28]>> Oh. Uh >> maybe he changed that.

[00:12:31]>> I don't know, man. I don't I don't know.

[00:12:33]I mean, >> I was reading also.

[00:12:34]>> But the thing is I mean it's so you're looking >> Oh, of course it's it's very >> And then that happened while >> Yeah.

[00:12:39]>> It's just I'm really interested in the most recent um and it's you know it's relevant to me because you're writing about this thing and then it happens you know.

[00:12:48]>> So So what is like you you were saying a good work of art >> has what what what were you trying to say? Well, I was trying to say this is why I was connecting it to Louis, too.

[00:12:59]And I was understanding why Louis is so >> sitcom.

[00:13:03]>> No, no, Louis.

[00:13:05]>> But no, but his show or just >> No, just him in general.

[00:13:08]>> Like, like I just think that like >> like life is more Now I'm like talking like Vulman because I got it in my head.

[00:13:18]But it's it's more it's it's the whole Chopenhau thing I was saying last on the pod last month where it's like >> the Wellbeck thing. Well, yeah. It's like it's like things things are are life is sad and we you know, we [ __ ] die and we and a lot of things in life are trying to trick us >> to the fact and to try to blind us to the fact that it's so many of Louis bits are so comforting in this deep way because he confronts these these realities and these and these difficult things. And I I just feel like Vulma's doing that too with all his work, whether it's how things how things are in life now or how violent things were in the past. And then he but he kind of has this like way of of looking at it in a in a in a in a cleareyed way.

[00:14:05]>> Is it making you feel? How is it making you feel toward >> making me feel like Yeah.

[00:14:13]Like Yeah. This is this is how things are. This is how things are. all of that.

[00:14:18]>> Well, I just think his relation like the way he talks about his relationship with Sally is just so on point and so I'm maybe >> Are you finding it relatable?

[00:14:29]>> I'm indeed finding it quite relative.

[00:14:34]>> CIA. No, take the CIA out of it. Just this like >> domestic life.

[00:14:37]>> Yes, the domestic life. When are you going to bust me? Can we get a bigger house? Oh, I got a little bit of a raise. Now she's very excited. Now she's and then the way he talks about thinking about, you know, the sexual dynamic of it. And one time she says, "Well, I don't think it's right for once you get married to >> Yeah. What sloppy?

[00:15:01]>> Yeah. No. No. I mean, that's not right.

[00:15:04]We live right on the We live, you know, we live in this nice neighborhood in the CIA.

[00:15:11]>> Yeah. She's like, "What is and then just And then just the stuff." And I don't know, there's a momentum to I mean, even at Europe Central, we don't have this focus on this.

[00:15:22]>> I don't like Europe Central that much.

[00:15:24]>> Yeah. No, I I mean, I read it when I was much younger and I was reading the beginning. There's actually a really cool part in the beginning of Europe Central about this woman who uh who tried to uh assassinate Stalin, but there's like all this like Cabala like >> Yeah.

[00:15:37]>> um alphabet [ __ ] in there. The Hebrew alphabet.

[00:15:41]>> He also is also he's dude. Okay. So what happened is I I read the sections with him and Sally and I'm like damn. And then he go back into the office and he talking about [ __ ] the east west Germany. He talking about the Kurds in Iraq. He's talking about something about your Russian novelist >> who who got like who's kind of like a soren right.

[00:16:06]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:07]>> He he say he's a political dissident writer. And then I'm just in Wikipedia.

[00:16:11]I don't know. Yeah, >> I had no idea like the east west. Yeah.

[00:16:15]How much >> the the conflict in the Middle East and the Israeli But it's also very like >> like you got to listen to Vulman and read and look up every try to understand what what what uh [ __ ] Dave is, you know, Elliot is figuring out in the office where all this other [ __ ] in my algorithm trying to understand what's going on in the Middle East. You know what I mean? It's like it's like real [ __ ] and it's happening all over again.

[00:16:38]It just keeps happening.

[00:16:39]>> Yeah.

[00:16:39]>> Well, literally as we speak, right?

[00:16:41]speak.

[00:16:42]>> The ground invasion is probably going to start like tonight >> cuz they go Yeah. I mean, didn't the plane go down this morning?

[00:16:48]>> It went down this morning and like the chiefs of the like whatever chiefs of staff are all at the White House and Trump isn't saying anything. And if he's not saying anything, that's not a good sign.

[00:16:57]>> Yeah. And it's like and then they go home and they watching Nixon on the TV talking about the war and you know and it's like >> I mean this almost like you're making it it almost sounds like the sound like John Updike or something like >> John why why >> I don't know just like the bgeoa life like this is my wife and I'm I mean which I actually like the rabbit books you know.

[00:17:20]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:21]>> No, it's a lot different. I mean, it's a weird book cuz it's got like so many different modes going on at once, >> but it kind of toggles between two modes. I feel like >> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:31]Home >> that he kind of goes into the like um vagrant lyrical, right?

[00:17:37]>> Vagrant lyrical. See, but the vagal, you know, the the lyrical is is formal.

[00:17:44]It doesn't really m you know, I think the lyrical can be uh some of those rainbow stories.

[00:17:49]>> Yeah. are the lyrical vagrant lyrical, >> right? But the >> like what the [ __ ] are these guys talking about?

[00:17:56]>> No, I'm following >> topically, but the fact that it's set with a guy who who who's living in this suburban context doesn't change the savagery of the >> Is it like this like micro violence macro violence thing like you're the domestic thing?

[00:18:10]>> It's about here's what you're saying.

[00:18:12]and they start toggling and they start >> what you're talking about is why it's so brutal is it's because it's about how operate how empire operates at a macro level than how it operates at a micro level >> and how it's the wife the wife in him and then >> yeah or or it's like that like um human relationships aren't actually built on like some transcendental values that it's like >> women like money and uh higher values brought down to bear in the family relationship.

[00:18:42]>> Well, well, so this is funny cuz I was um >> Max wouldn't relate to any of this.

[00:18:47]>> Why?

[00:18:48]>> Because you ain't >> he's actually married, right?

[00:18:51]>> Yeah. You're married. You got you know you got that you know you work you know you got a job.

[00:18:56]>> But you know this this is what >> you ain't a vagrant.

[00:18:59]>> I was I was reading uh >> vagrant homeless Twilight of the Idols and the Antichrist last week for the first time since high school.

[00:19:07]>> Radicalizing Harold. Dude, he's a good boy trying to read.

[00:19:10]>> No. And na like >> you're not 30 yet, right?

[00:19:13]>> No.

[00:19:13]>> Okay. Will self when I was talking about niche, he's like I think we've all got to [ __ ] admit that as soon as you turn 30, you can't read n back. You need to rub back. You need >> I like I love na but I think that you do. There's a certain part of you that switches where you're like it's cool.

[00:19:29]The writing's great. So much fun.

[00:19:31]>> You need to read this. When I was 18 I was highlighting you older. But what what I think is really funny is that um you know his two uber mench Gerta and Napoleon who both were completely dominated by women and >> Nietze was too.

[00:19:50]>> Well Na I think Nietze was probably impotent for most of his life after he got destroyed by the Sith. Well, and and there there is it's funny. He goes there's this one passage. I almost sent this to you that he goes uh the only thing that would keep me from an enthusiastic yes to the eternal recurrence is my mother and my na on women. Na women is really in his bag.

[00:20:11]>> I love Nichzche's writing in German is incredibly pure.

[00:20:15]>> Wait, the zerus stuff on women is crazy.

[00:20:18]>> Well, I love that stuff. There there's this good um on the translator um it's I forget >> Kman.

[00:20:26]>> No um RJ something hung.

[00:20:28]>> Oh yeah.

[00:20:29]>> So he translates he doesn't >> I forget this word but it's this is the biggest sin against the Holy Spirit. And he translated it as assiduity which is like it's a weird translation but it actually makes for a good pun that he doesn't even realize because he goes ass. So it's like sitting on your ass conspiracy is the great because it's like he means he's trying to use it as from >> sedere from Latin etmology for like sedentary right but he don't even realize that it's ass and it's actually a perfect >> yeah there's like well >> cuz it's like sitting it's like um >> sometimes these translators over overplay their hand a little bit with philos philosophy translations though for example like >> I got to show you >> but that's an accidental gem. No. Well, there's another one where like the the translator of science of logic for Cambridge was like >> in German von um has like which perception has take kind of built into it. And I think I'm trying to remember exactly what it was, but he was like of course this relates a little bit to the modern notion of having a take. And I'm like wasn't thinking about having a [ __ ] take.

[00:21:36]But but they also got to make >> it was exactly I'm pretty sure it was >> relatable for you know that's a part of making it readable in English in some ways too right don't you think >> well because valong sounds like truthtaking a bit anyways this is we only have a conversation about >> but I but I just thought it was really funny that that Nichch's ideal of like the perfect men who live out so virtu we're were so we're like weak little boys in the face of you know Napoleon with Josephine and uh Gerta with uh what was the girl's name that he was in love with when he was old, >> you know.

[00:22:06]>> I think it was, wasn't it?

[00:22:08]>> Gerta had that much.

[00:22:09]>> Oh, Gerta.

[00:22:10]>> No. Yeah. Good.

[00:22:11]>> When he was old, he was in love with some >> Oh, is that right?

[00:22:14]>> Girl.

[00:22:14]>> Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:15]>> And Na was in love with Salame. Yeah.

[00:22:18]>> My Yeah. They were all dominated by women.

[00:22:21]>> Is that the opera?

[00:22:25]Bowman thinking about I mean uh the Elliot speaking about the the prosty he was with and he's so crazy bro. I gota I got to show you too. It's also like I think it's I I got to show you some passages like in order to understand >> I'm excited to really read it slowly because I had to read it >> an earlier draft when I was involved in a publishing negotiation over it representing one of my teams.

[00:22:51]>> Gotcha. Gotcha. and arcade is um now >> well it fell through >> I think I've said it before I think I can probably say it um >> um is that Bill just wanted like the publisher to take on full legal liability for >> for everything he said in the book >> then they wouldn't >> well because it's semi-fictional and there's a lot of stuff about like the CIA so they made them nervous >> um I think that was sort of the >> it yeah it's definitely a it's definitely Definitely a novel though.

[00:23:23]It's really a novel. I mean I mean it's a crazy paper and just read it properly slowly.

[00:23:28]>> It's also it gets disoriented. It gets disorienting when you get in the office and he like talking about all this [ __ ] going on. But it's also I mean it's to it's totally the personal element that I'm drawn to. And you know what I'm saying?

[00:23:42]>> You don't care about the empire element as much.

[00:23:44]>> Well, I didn't as much in the beginning.

[00:23:46]I didn't as much in the beginning and then I started like like I started Wikipedia on what he's talking about and then it started to get really interesting and they started to inter intersect with each they started to like it's also like you know when you're seeing someone cooking in a way and then like >> you know you're clarifying what the formula is.

[00:24:04]>> Yeah. So making Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:24:07]>> This is fertile ground.

[00:24:08]>> It's absolutely file. Listen, because and then and then and then he's in the office because it's also a it's also a syncing up of his modes, you know? He always does this in his books where he's so [ __ ] he's like fathers and crows like million epigraphs from [ __ ] Sandy 1544 blah blah blah and then there's like some little girl a little native girl who like he gets converted >> looking for hookers. There's like an autofictional episode at the beginning of this book >> in the middle of uh ice shirt I think actually. No, there's one. Well, there's one right at the beginning of uh Fathers and Crows when he's in Quebec looking for a hooker on like a night and I was like >> I really to be I love all Bill's books.

[00:24:48]>> Yeah, >> I would love to read an a thousandpage lyrical memoir about Bill's hookers.

[00:24:54]>> That's the thing. He has this sort of like like like uh erotic like uh >> reverencely.

[00:25:03]No, I'm not. These are >> cuz then then he's going to There's a girl Doris in the office who's always trying who's like always getting a little bit wild with him and she's like >> a meme where it's like [ __ ] made me go places I wouldn't go with a gun or something.

[00:25:15]>> That's like Bowman with >> I gotta find one funny ass quote.

[00:25:20]>> Well, you know this is what I was >> I want to tell you about this girl's book too.

[00:25:25]>> Oh. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:26]>> Yeah. So funny. But see, I think that's actually like I was thinking about this today just uh how lust in a lot of ways has become just such a corporate commodity now that even having like a book about going out and chasing hookers and it's like almost a refreshing attitude towards sex, you know, because now like what you haven't like I was thinking about this with, you know, the most popular books in America are these romantisy books which are like, you know, smot on par with Songs of Chaos, Right.

[00:25:57]>> I wouldn't say I won't go that far, but they are open heated rivalry and it's like >> he was his scalding con into the fealcoated magma rectum.

[00:26:08]>> But what what these things do is is like they're intense sex, but they're safe in an imaginary world and they have no reflection on your relationship reality and their products too. That's not they're woke. It's not but see the impact of that. But it's that they're product.

[00:26:26]>> Yeah. And No, but the impact of that is you're selling a fantasy.

[00:26:30]>> Yeah. A fantasy is like that type of book is literally the opposite of what I'm saying the shop and Harry and like good art way cuz see Vulma's clarifying and you could say the formula I say the formula all the time but when someone does it a new way. Okay. First thing you need to do is Okay, you need you Okay.

[00:26:47]You need an element of that >> Yeah.

[00:26:50]>> Um, intimacy erotic element like you need to toggle between your understanding that we're going to die cuz that's how people that's [ __ ] boys.

[00:26:59][ __ ] boy is really sad but it's also for a moment. Oh yo based titties are like I'm bricked up you know like you toggle that. And then the third component is in is knowledge.

[00:27:10]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:12]>> You cycle it through knowledge. You need to have knowledge to cycle through.

[00:27:16]There's no knowledge in the fantasy books and there's no understanding of death. So, it's one of the three components. So, Vulman does this perfectly. I got to show I found the perfect quote that read you guys before we go.

[00:27:26]>> Say just that um Vulman you were saying that there's this element of Schopenhauian truth in the wellbeckian way. Like I remember when I read elementary particles the first time I was like holy [ __ ] >> Yes. Yeah. True.

[00:27:41]>> True. But the thing that you're always enraptured by in Vulman and in Wellbeck is the sexuality. That's where they allow themselves to be bewitched.

[00:27:49]>> Yeah. Yes. Exactly. The bewitchment >> and it's a toggling between.

[00:27:53]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But the bewitchment in like knowing Bill, he'll hopefully like talk about uh his love of women a bit in a polite way. But like Bill and Wellbeck are both >> no matter how clearly they see the world, they never >> Yeah. They're They don't The bewitchment doesn't fade.

[00:28:11]>> Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And a toggling between the two. I We got to get Max drinking. I got to eat some food.

[00:28:18]>> But can I should I just reach Can I treat you guys a little bit real quick before we we switch over?

[00:28:23]>> Okay, we're switching over.

[00:28:24]>> We should drop the whole thing for free.

[00:28:27]>> Yeah, but we need to We the files, you we got hour and 20 minutes. It's hard to bounce a file.

[00:28:33]>> We got to go to talk in the second hour.

[00:28:36]What >> will I be able to allow to talk again?

[00:28:39]>> Oh my god. You literally spoke your your little your little takes you prepared for [ __ ] the first 40 minutes >> to say about the [ __ ] book.

[00:28:47]>> All right. This is when he gets a he gets a check from >> Yeah.

[00:28:51]>> He gets a check from his dad.

[00:28:53]>> Uh, and Sally sees it before he comes home.

[00:28:56]>> Oh, I love that.

[00:28:57]>> And he's been begging her. She wants a bigger house. She wants a better house.

[00:29:00]She wants to paint, you know, she wants him to, you know, nut in her and give her a baby. These are the two things >> women the bedrock of ci civilization.

[00:29:08]>> These are the two things like women tend to >> female desires.

[00:29:11]>> So so basically she she got a uh she got a she sees that he got a check from her dad and she she she's very excited. She waiting at home all day touching herself thinking about it >> and she's mating the check >> and look he said he truly wanted to take her I don't know this screenshot. I don't know what came before. He truly wanted to take her upstairs, but she pulled back quickly pecked his forehead and said, "There's a check from your father. A large check dated on your birthday." Yeah, he told me it was coming. And why didn't you tell me? Why didn't you tell me?

[00:29:43]>> Sally s do you know the three biggest lies in history? I really love you. I won't come in your mouth. And the checks in the mail.

[00:29:54]>> That's disgusting. That's disgusting.

[00:29:58]Sorry, honey. I just didn't want to get your hopes up. Dad has let me down before. Oh, she said, "Well, I won't ever let you down. Not ever." There seemed to be an enhanced splendor about her, a loving splendor. And when she kissed him again, it was as if he had come out of the darkness into light.

[00:30:15]Look at that [ __ ] [ __ ] His kisses were in fact addictive. He couldn't get enough of her. and he would never come in her mouth because that too, although not with my that's his little Vietnam would have been disgusting. What a brilliant choice Mr. Elliot Stevens had made in his spouse. Does the glamour of new money have anything to do with tonight's loveydoveiness.

[00:30:38]Anyhow, she was the princess, abundantly fleshy, yes, a trifled chubby now. And with grateful pleasure, he took her upstairs and began to caress her, inhaling the scent of her curly reddish blonde hair. After they finally Anyway, >> yeah, >> I like the hand splendor of money.

[00:30:55]That's >> imagining that Bill's voice is so funny.

[00:30:58]>> I know.

[00:30:58]>> The three biggest lies in human civilization are the what is it? What was the first one?

[00:31:03]>> I really love you.

[00:31:04]>> I love you. I won't come in your mouth.

[00:31:07]And the check is in the mail.

[00:31:10]>> Speaking of the houses though, I think I said the last pod, but it's worth repeating the story because people Vulman's more >> Yeah, repeat it. occurrence which is that when Bulman was repeating researching the book, he was in Virginia where all the CIA big shots have houses and one of them was for sale.

[00:31:26]>> I was thinking about that when I was cuz they finally got the new house and he's going look for it.

[00:31:30]>> Yeah. Yeah. And so Vulman was researching these houses and Bill doesn't dress like he's going to buy a $5 million house.

[00:31:36]>> Yeah. He looks like a goon.

[00:31:38]>> I don't know if he looks like a goon. He just doesn't look like he's going to buy a $5 million house. Um and the realtor was suspicious of him and was like, "Mr. Vulman, are you sure this is in your price range? And like the security guy made the security guy follow him and stuff >> and um >> Bill got a bit pissed off at the realtor one of the times >> and he was like, "Well, Marissa, you know, this is a little bit cheaper than the kind of place I would normally want to buy. This dump is, you know, 5 million. And normally I'd want to buy a house for 15 million because I'm just a big shot investor. But I guess just this once I'll consider it.

[00:32:15]>> And he's like, "But she didn't believe me and the guy kept following me."

[00:32:21]>> That's a good lie.

[00:32:22]>> Damn.

[00:32:23]>> So, you find this stuff relatable?

[00:32:25]>> No. No. No. I just thought it was very funny. I thought absolutely not.

[00:32:29]>> This like four and a half thousand page epic about like why American civil that why the American empire is the way it is. Sean's just like, "Yeah, [ __ ] want money. It's [ __ ] up."

[00:32:39]>> No, but that that that does boil down like Why are we Why are we in the Middle East, bro? America America's a greedy [ __ ] bro.

[00:32:48]>> Wow. I mean, you sound like the book of Revelation.

[00:32:50]>> Just I just solved the war, dude. I just >> We want more.

[00:32:54]>> We'd like more.

[00:32:56]>> Well, the whole family is about a beautiful mystical prostitute who is like he's fixated on who's like God, >> basically.

[00:33:05]>> Yeah, that's that's what uh that's what uh >> it's very uh that's what uh the new one is, too.

[00:33:11]Yeah, the lesbian of that.

[00:33:13]>> Yeah. No, no. Lucky star.

[00:33:14]>> Royal family. The main like the queen.

[00:33:16]>> Okay. But it's a trilogy.

[00:33:18]>> Is royal family part of the trilogy?

[00:33:19]>> Yeah.

[00:33:20]>> You know that that that's the secret uh undercurrent of the uber mench is the >> Yeah, it's the mystical [ __ ] >> Well, I guess well >> Josephine like Josephine was the the the greatest lay >> killed Nichzche.

[00:33:33]>> Yeah, >> literally.

[00:33:34]>> I know.

[00:33:34]>> Syphilis.

[00:33:35]>> Mhm.

[00:33:36]>> He was upset >> from [ __ ] >> And all his boys were obsessed.

[00:33:39]Wellbeck, a true Uber Mench.

[00:33:41]>> Yeah, that that's the undercurrent. You need a mystical >> horse. All the all the Jesuits, they all got >> You guys haven't read Mountain Head yet.

[00:33:48]You guys got to be on Mountain Head.

[00:33:50]>> Oh yeah, you mentioned it last time.

[00:33:53]>> Yeah, that book's so [ __ ] good.

[00:33:56]>> That book's so good.

[00:33:57]>> Is that about a mystical [ __ ] >> It's about a guy going through a Southeast Asian com country just sleeping with hookers in the most depraved way possible, which sounds awful. Yeah, >> it sounds like a Tucker Max book kind of like but it's really like Notes from Underground or Can Thompson's Hunger.

[00:34:15]It's so [ __ ] good.

[00:34:17]>> Yeah, >> you're trying to split the pond into two right now.

[00:34:20]>> I I mean, you know, we getting this files minutes. I gota [ __ ] >> I mean, but but that camera is like easy, don't >> have 25 hours on her. Yeah.

[00:34:29]>> Yeah. So, I mean, we could keep rolling.

[00:34:31]>> Yeah. Oh, it's easy.

[00:34:33]>> I don't know. Oh, you have you ever bounc Have you ever bounced >> when I recorded on my own damn phone?

[00:34:41]>> I know. Once it gets up there, it's crazy.

[00:34:44]>> No, we could chill or whatever. I want to have a smoke. I want to have a smoke.

[00:34:46]I want to just take a break. You can smoke in here, bro.

[00:34:48]>> Let's take a break. No.