The Island Nolan MISSED: Phaeacia Odyssey DEEP DIVE w/ Oxford Classics Professor Armand D'Angour

[00:00:00]Between books 6 and 13 of the Odyssey, Adysius travels to a land called Fia, which is a magical island where he recounts his tales of the Cyclops, the sun god's cattle, and various other things. Now, Christopher Nolan in his film completely skips the island of Fatia and puts some of those events elsewhere. He, for example, has Adysius recount those tales to Calypso while he's on the island of Agia. And so in this video, I'm going to sit down with Armand Dangor, a classics professor from Oxford University, and we're going to talk through everything that happens in the Fiatian Tales. That's when Adysius gets there in book six, all the way to when he leaves and gets home to Ithaca in book 13. We've got chapter markers through the description of the video, which will help you jump from topic to topic. But generally the structure will be that the first 30 minutes we'll sort of zoom through various points of interest of mine as I work through those different books of the text and then from the 30 minute mark to the end of the video we'll actually do a sort of chronological retelling. So if you want to know what actually happened in the Odyssey when Adysius got to Fatia and what differs from the Nolan film for example then that's the section of the video that you'll want to focus on. So without further ado here's my conversation with Armand. Hi guys, welcome to a very special guest episode of the book club. I'm here with Armand Dangor who is a classicist uh professor at Oxford University. You're an author.

[00:01:32]You also have lots of uh published academic work on various things all related to classics.

[00:01:40]>> Greek and Latin.

[00:01:40]>> Greek and Latin. And you run a podcast.

[00:01:44]>> I do. which is it's the all Greek >> It's all Greek and Latin to me.

[00:01:48]>> All Greek and Latin to me podcast. So very pleased to be able to chat with you today.

[00:01:54]>> Thank you.

[00:01:55]>> We have an uh expansive amount of the Odyssey to try to cover in our conversation because initially I proposed any any element of the book for us to focus on and Amand your immediate response was let's do the Fatian Tales.

[00:02:13]the Fian Tales, which is pretty central to the story and um tell us an awful lot about the hero and tell us an awful lot about the >> way the the the the story is constructed and told >> and uh so they range from the arrival of Adysius on Fascia all the way through to his departure. uh and within that there is this sort of uh throwback to Adysius's past and history that he recounts and that takes him all over the place as well. So there's there's many journeys in there. So just to get us started, why the fation tales? Why was that your your goal? I suppose uh central to those tales is one of the greatest stories in western literature which is a story of Adysius on the island of the Cyclops and how he escapes famously by um fooling the Cyclops into thinking that his name is no one >> so that when the Cyclops is blinded the giant shouts nobody blinded me and everybody thinks he's mad.

[00:03:21]>> Yeah. and um also the binding of his companions and then himself underneath the sheep and indeed the ram in his case so that they can leave the cave undetected >> when the giant has removed the great stone from the cave's entrance. Yes.

[00:03:41]>> Which is stopping them escape. So I mean wonderful story >> and I would argue probably the most famous part of the text.

[00:03:48]>> Probably most thing that everybody would have heard of. I think the cyclops you may not remember the name is polyphimas.

[00:03:54]You will think cyclopsis oneeyed giant.

[00:03:57]I mean it's something that actually fills our imaginations and there have been a lot of different explanations for why this story arises. It arises in dozens of different cultures not just in ancient Greek culture. The idea of a giant not always a oneeyed giant but someone who has to be escaped. And uh I like the explanation. I'm not saying it's the right one. Sure.

[00:04:20]>> That when uh we're babies uh the father's face that looms over us because of our vision. We see the two eyes as one eye.

[00:04:31]>> Wow. Okay. I've not heard that before.

[00:04:33]>> And so this idea of this threatening giant >> Yeah.

[00:04:37]>> threatening male giant is is something that we all grow up with, >> right? And so that would explain why it might permeate different cultures, etc. >> That's just one theory, but it's another.

[00:04:46]>> Okay. So key to our discussion today will be Fasia, >> right?

[00:04:51]>> But it's not Fia.

[00:04:53]>> No. So Homer doesn't call it FA. So in in the Odyssey, >> he calls the people who live there, the Fiatians, >> Payarchus in Greek, >> and the island itself is called Scaria.

[00:05:07]So strictly speaking, we should talk about Scaria as the place >> and the Fiats as the people. But I think there's no reason not to use the word fat which I understand that Emily Wilson does in translation. Yeah. So throughout the Wilson translation she does oscillate between the two. And I've seen other I looked up I think it was the Butler translation before I came to talk to you today and noticed that butler avoids using fia >> at all. What is it that is so special about whether we call it fia or not that place? Because there's mentions in the text, for example, uh in book 5, line 33, and at least in Wilson's translation, where she refers to the people of Fia as magical.

[00:05:50]>> Yes.

[00:05:50]>> And there are these continued references to them being a little different to some of the other peoples of the Greek Isles.

[00:05:57]Why is that, do we think?

[00:06:00]>> So Scaria is a kind of magical island.

[00:06:04]It isn't one that we could pinpoint and we can't say looking at the the topography of a disused journey that we know where it is. And >> even if we did, we couldn't say that we know very much about, you know, what sort of island it is. It's clearly meant to be sort of halfway between the magical island on which Adysius is stranded at the beginning of the story, which is called Oija, the island of Calypso. Yep.

[00:06:35]>> And the land of Ithaca, which he is heading towards because his own real country, native land. So, you don't just go from a magical island, get shipwrecked off your raft, and end up at home, >> right?

[00:06:50]>> Uh for all sorts of reasons. narratively you want him to have a lot of difficulty getting back to Ithaca and he does because he is nearly there for example when he leaves another semi-agical island the island of who gives him the winds and then his companions open the little bag of winds and he's blown back to the island of so he's never quite getting there until book 13 basically and so um after he leaves Oija which is the magical island of the nymphalypo where He has been for seven years enjoying her favors and um missing home and missing his beloved Penelopey even though he's with his gorgeous goddess.

[00:07:32]He leaves it and uh as it were the next place on his moral journey not just his physical journey is this intermediate something called liinal because it's like on the threshold >> uh liinal island of of Scaria and perhaps that's one of the reasons why it has two names you know magical islands people are called one thing the island's called something else. Yeah, it's it's tiptoeing between just being this fantastical land where there's a line in book seven where uh there's mentioned that the gods used to walk amongst the people the fiats and it's this unusual thing where it's like well why why do they get that privilege and why do the gods associate with them in a way that they might not with other normal humans.

[00:08:17]So we're told that actually the Fatian king and his wife are both direct descendants of the god Poseidon.

[00:08:25]>> Oh right. Okay.

[00:08:26]>> So that's what we're told that uh Poseidon gave birth to I think it's now Sithus.

[00:08:32]>> Yeah. Okay. Yes.

[00:08:33]>> An interesting name actually because it has the same nouse as you have in Alino >> and in many of the other names and now means a ship.

[00:08:42]>> Okay.

[00:08:42]>> So this is so nautical.

[00:08:45]Exactly. Okay. So, um, Alkinuis is, um, I think it it's his niece actually who's the queen whom he marries. And so, you know, it's a sort of inbred island people who are descended from the god Poseidon. And these are people who we're told originally lived >> next to the cyclopes, >> right?

[00:09:07]>> Who are also descended from Poseidon.

[00:09:09]>> And so, that was Hyperia, if I'm not mistaken, that original land, I think.

[00:09:14]>> Is that what it is? I think or Hyperion what it was a a a hip of some description >> and yes indeed and they leave I think in my understanding at least because their proximity to the cyclopes is so difficult for them. Yes.

[00:09:35]>> That is interesting because we're going to then end up getting to this >> Cyclops story shortly afterwards, but it's kind of a foreboing moment of >> Yes, indeed.

[00:09:45]>> Watch out cuz they're not they're not good.

[00:09:47]>> They're going to you're going to have a bad time.

[00:09:49]>> Yeah. Even if you're related to them.

[00:09:51]>> Yeah. Yeah. So, so in Fia, we learn all of these recounted tales from from Adysius. Uh but before that happens, there are also the games which take place.

[00:10:04]>> Yes.

[00:10:04]>> And on first read for me as a as a non-classist, I didn't really know what to make of this because through so much of the text, we have these repeated scenes which become really easy to pass because I'm like, "Oh, okay. A new person is a guest somewhere. I know what steps sort of prescribed steps they're following and why they're doing it to be respectful and to extend this guest friendship and this Zenia. But in this case, it starts there, but then it becomes a well, we have this guest.

[00:10:36]Let's throw these games and almost have a show of strength for Adysius to pass on that uh information to the the people that he will find back home. Not that they know yet that he is Adysius. And so I wasn't sure whether to interpret it as they're flexing essentially and they're sort of being like we're great and you'll you have to know it or if it's more of a a celebration and it's entirely a positive and well-meaning thing for Adysius's benefit. Do you have an opinion on on that?

[00:11:05]>> I think it's a bit of both actually. So um >> they want to show their prowess.

[00:11:12]>> So this is how it comes across. Yeah, we we were going to put on this show. Um, and then Adysius is challenged and initially turns it down and then he accepts a challenge and he throws the discus farther than anyone else can throw it. I think it's also a way of showing that a disuse really is a powerful hero.

[00:11:34]>> Okay. [clears throat] Um and so this is something that actually foreshadows the contest of the bow much later when you know he is this unknown beggar and he uh is challenged well he they suggest that he should try the bow and you know and when he has the bow he actually manages to shoot it all the way the arrow all the way through the through the axes. So [clears throat] I mean something kind of similar and you do find this get in home all the time that there are similar patterns of events.

[00:12:06]>> Yep.

[00:12:06]>> A challenge for him to show off his prowess and when he does he proves to be the best at the lot.

[00:12:11]>> Yeah. And it's interesting also because they then immediately pivot and they say, "Oh well, you're better at throwing the disc, but we can dance better than you." And he's sort of like, "Yeah, fair enough." [laughter] >> So there is a bit of a dance of hospitality there.

[00:12:27]They are presenting him with a singer for example.

[00:12:31]>> Um the bar demodicus who sings three songs and two of which make him cry because they're about him.

[00:12:40]>> The story of the quarrel with Agamemnon which is of course the story of the Iliad >> and then the story of the wooden horse and how Troy eventually falls to the wooden horse which of course we don't get in Iliad because Troy hasn't fallen.

[00:12:54]>> So it's very useful to have it here. And then in between that demodicus the bard the blind bard on presumably Homer is is modeled model modeling this b on his own >> on him himself.

[00:13:07]>> He's certainly heaping praise on him. He does a lot of that thing like he >> does he like you're so great. So there's a lot of that >> a bit of self advertisement here. So, but um Deodus in between that sings the story of the gods Aries, the war god and Aphroditi, the love goddess.

[00:13:25]>> Um and how Aries seduces Aphrodite willingly. Yep.

[00:13:30]>> Though of course, she's married to the lame god Hifisters, the craftsman god, who creates a net of gold and traps them in Flaggrante. And then all the gods come along and have a good laugh. Yeah.

[00:13:43]at Aries >> and and in that story again reading it for the first time I felt that it strangely didn't resolve. I almost felt like there was going to be a big moral lesson and actually it sort of seems like they're like that was bad but then they kind of just get out of it. And I don't know if that's maybe just me not seeing the threads that would maybe make it into other classics that would sort of be downstream of it or not, but it seems somewhat conclusionless to me at least. You have to accept I think that the gods you can't have the same kind of conclusions as you can when you're telling stories about human beings.

[00:14:24]>> Okay. So >> what is the punishment for a god or and goddess caught in adultery >> being seen. That's it.

[00:14:32]>> Right. Okay.

[00:14:32]>> That is the punishment being laughed at by the other gods.

[00:14:36]>> You see strong as you are Aries you could not >> uh get out of these bronze meshes. and you Afroditi who is supposed to make other people fall in love. Well, there you are caught being seduced, willingly seduced by this butch uh war god. And then you have actually a nice little twist at the end because Hermes uh I think it's Hermes who's asked, you know, well, would you would you do that? Would would you be prepared to be seduced by Aphrodite at the cost of being caught?

[00:15:08]And he says, yes.

[00:15:08]>> Yeah. I think he says three times over or something. So um and so you know there's a sense um that this is how the gods are seen. They >> get off scot-f free from whatever they do because they're immortals.

[00:15:23]>> Okay.

[00:15:23]>> And actually it ties in very well with uh what are called the homeriic hymns.

[00:15:30]So >> okay >> um hymns to the gods which survive which are later than the Iliad and the Odyssey but survive from around say um 7th to 5th century.

[00:15:42]>> Okay.

[00:15:42]>> So um assuming the the hero 8th century BC these are >> a bit later but you have pins to the gods some a few hundred lines long some literally half a dozen lines.

[00:15:55]>> Oh wow. Okay. Um, and uh, the the longish ones all tell stories about things that the gods did, the birth of Hermes and how he invents the liar by and how he, [clears throat] >> for example, how he tricks Apollo by stealing his capital and dragging them backwards. So >> Apollo is is following the the hooves >> the wrong way in order to find his stolen capital. Things like that. um which all slightly said in fun. Uh so there is actually in the Hindu Aphroditi the seduction by Aphroditi of a mortal man and Kises >> right >> and again she's caught doing that and they laugh at her for doing it >> and that is punishment in itself I suppose you know that's enough kind of thing >> then as as here you know she she dashes off to her sacred island of Cyprus and and that's it right >> she she flees the scrutiny of the other gods >> so is there a in the form of delivery of of this this epic as an oral poem. Is there an intended human moral implication do you think for the inclusion of a story like that? Because through the text there are so many instances of little stories and tidbits of oh this person did this and it went badly or it didn't go badly or what have you. And I wonder how much I should be reading into it going and therefore Homer is saying don't do this or if you're a god you're above the rest of us. Yeah. Like is is that something that you think >> that's right? Um as regards the gods certainly the the god mortal divide is very clear in Homer.

[00:17:34]>> The gods get away with all sorts of things. I mean they can make you promises effectively and break them.

[00:17:42]They seem to want for example to be prayed to uh but they don't always do what the human being prays for.

[00:17:52]>> So in a way that's quite realistic.

[00:17:54]Things happen. You might be very god-fearing. You might pray but you're not not going to get >> uh what you want. I think there is that distinction that he wants to make.

[00:18:05]You're right. There's quite a lot of moral lessons that he very explicitly draws. particularly in the Odyssey and it's a different kind of morality from the one that we find on the whole in the Iliad. Right?

[00:18:19]>> I there's a huge amount of debate about it amongst the scholars but broadly speaking in the Iliad >> the the heroes are doing what they're doing in order to achieve honor for themselves and individual honor is paramount.

[00:18:34]>> And is that Cleos? Is that >> Cleos? Yeah.

[00:18:36]>> Yep. Okay. Well, the other word is is t which means honor, but Cleos is as it were the um reception of that honor.

[00:18:45]>> Okay. So, almost like renown.

[00:18:47]>> The renown.

[00:18:47]>> Yes. Exactly.

[00:18:49]>> Um and uh the gods want to say we have to be honored because of course they're competing with each other. you know, here and Athena wants to uh destroy the Trojans on on the part of the Greeks, whereas um you know, the Poseidon and Aphroditi are very keen to uh to help the other side for their own personal reasons.

[00:19:17]>> Yeah. Um anyway, so so in the odd odyssey we start at the very beginning with the council of the gods and Zeus saying human beings are responsible through their own follyies for the consequences of their actions.

[00:19:34]>> So it's much clearer that it's not about individuals doing what they do in order to achieve honor but not doing the wrong thing in order not to get their comeuppins. And I suppose it then not only takes the other sort of what I suppose would have been common knowledge of the of the mythological world at at the time of Homer, but also specifically >> I think reframes some of, as you said, the the commentary that Iliad provides as to what >> a man should be striving for in this sort of warfaring manner. um to flash us forward and we'll definitely come back, but to flash forward to um the Achilles mention in the sort of I don't know actually if it would be right to call it Hades or >> Yes, in Hades.

[00:20:24]>> Yes. Okay, perfect.

[00:20:26]>> But it's weird because he I always think of Hades as under, but then he sails to it. And I wonder is that that feels lateral to me, but maybe that's just a mis misconception. I mean he has to do certain sacrifices and libation.

[00:20:42]>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But he sails across an ocean stream or something first and then does that and I >> Yes. Um >> it it is thought of as the underworld and um however one visualizes it.

[00:20:55]>> Sure. Okay.

[00:20:56]>> You have you have to sail across the river sticks to get to >> right >> Hades in any case. But that is a river in the underworld.

[00:21:03]>> Yes. Okay. Okay. So we're we're firmly there, >> but we are in the underground.

[00:21:08]>> Perfect. And so there >> Yeah.

[00:21:10]>> Achilles says more or less uh it would be better rather than praising my death in battle.

[00:21:19]It would be better to live and I think make some comments.

[00:21:23]>> I would rather be a surf.

[00:21:25]>> Yeah.

[00:21:25]>> On earth than a rich man, >> right? which feels >> complete counter to the Iliad's sort of >> absolutely >> central theme.

[00:21:35]>> So the idea that you achieve glory and you go to Ilyium which is part of the world which is the aisles of the blessed as they're called >> right >> so where the good heroes go is you know place where you are permanently blessed on one reading.

[00:21:53]>> Yeah. Um, so Achilles should end up in a place where he's basically happy, but he's not because he's dead.

[00:21:59]>> And so how would the audience have rationalized that? Because they're two very very I'm assuming famous at the time also works >> enormously.

[00:22:09]>> Right. So the contrasting message and yet from again the author thing is a whole question unto itself. But seemingly from the same source and sort of saying >> here's one way of thinking about it. But actually no, we're going to reframe it a little bit here.

[00:22:24]>> It's a bit more complex than that because Achilles in the Iliad knows that he's been given two choices. One is to live a long happy and um inglorious life and no one's ever going to hear of him.

[00:22:39]The other is to die young and to uh be thereafter honored in song and so on, which is what Cleaos is. And he essentially chooses the former because he decides to withdraw from the fighting until his beloved Petropolis is killed.

[00:22:58]And then he knows that by going back into the battle because this is the prophecy that he will be killed. So he knows him die young but he'll be forever famed. So so the choice is there and no one is saying I want to die. I want to die young. I want to leave this life.

[00:23:18]>> Okay.

[00:23:18]>> Um and uh you know life is important.

[00:23:24]Dying gloriously may be important but it doesn't mean you want to hasten that.

[00:23:29]>> I so they're not necessarily orthogonal views. They're not exactly not directly opposed. And the interesting thing about that particular quote though is that having died, you might, as Adysius suggests, you might think Achilles is happy to have been a glorious hero and to have died. Something something creeps in there probably from Homer's own view of the matter, >> which [clears throat] is actually, you know, it's just not great to be dead.

[00:23:59]>> Do you think there's some some of Homer's doubts? I think so. I think it's like, you know, actually, >> yes, he's in the the underworld, but even a great hero prefers to be alive.

[00:24:09]And one of the ways you're alive in ancient Greece is they use the phrase to see the light of the sun.

[00:24:16]>> Okay?

[00:24:16]>> And being deprived of the light of the sun is horrible, >> right? And in the underworld, I think it's continuously referred to that it's it's the space of darkness and and sunless. And I think when they emerge, there's a direct reference to the fact that they emerge back into the light if I recall correctly.

[00:24:34]>> So I think that you know the Greeks were very much a life affirming people, >> right?

[00:24:40]>> Although you have to have a consolation for dying and it might be don't worry, you've got eternal glory.

[00:24:45]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:46]>> It isn't necessarily a consolation for >> right [clears throat] >> living human beings.

[00:24:50]>> Yes. Yeah. Like it's it's good to die in in battle and and gain this renown, but being dead is still bad [laughter] kind of thing, right? So, let's let's rewind then because we jumped a huge amount into the future for that little tidbit to >> to book 11 called the the visit to the underworld or the necua.

[00:25:12]>> Okay.

[00:25:13]>> Um >> is that a is that a homeriic label or is that did that come after?

[00:25:17]>> It's a later one. It's because the um the word means the dead. So so that book is about his visit to the underworld and his um coming across first a whole stream of of women who had died including his own mother.

[00:25:32]>> Yeah.

[00:25:33]>> And then some heroes and like Achilles and and Ajax in particular who >> Yes.

[00:25:39]>> heard of Yeah. But but up until that point he's had a number of other adventures which he has talked about himself. So after So let's go back then.

[00:25:48]Uh let's start with his arrival.

[00:25:51]>> Yes.

[00:25:52]>> In book six on the island of Skiria.

[00:25:55]>> Mhm.

[00:25:55]>> So he's left the island of Calypso where he's been for seven years enjoying himself. He made a raft and he's launched himself on the sea.

[00:26:05]>> And it's a raft that is then described as being really elaborate. And I wonder if it's even a raft. I think that there's there's there's very extensive description if I recall at the end of book five and it's like this is this is a lot for a raft. Um >> it's a very fine piece >> fine raft. Yeah. Uh which >> but he you know he has to lash these bits of wood together and so on in that way in order to launch himself onto the ocean. But of course, he is being chased by the anger of Poseidon.

[00:26:39]Um, and the raft is destroyed, a storm.

[00:26:43]He's thrown to the sea. He has to swim to shore. And he doesn't know where he's got to. In fact, he's ended up on this island of Scaria. Um, and he crawls covered in brine into the bushes, we're told, >> and goes to sleep. And he wakes up to hear the sound of women. And these are women who have come from town. Now Sikar, the very young ship again, the now >> Oh, right. Yeah.

[00:27:13]>> daughter of Alinois uh has uh decided to have a trip to wash all the clothes of of her brothers, these young bachelors. It's actually one of the features of uh Alenos's island is that they seem to be very keen on nice clean clothes.

[00:27:31]So the princess herself has decided that she's going to do it and she brings a load of her maids with her >> and the form here >> I wonder if it's Homer kind of being a bit cheeky because you are presented with her viewpoint and there's sort of a laying out of what to me at least reads like clues that you could sort of go oh why why are we learning about laundry to the extent that we are >> and I'm I'm that through the whole text.

[00:28:01]That's why I I read the raft bit and was like, is this going somewhere really specific or what? But we we get this detail about the laundry and it's it's almost like a magic trick being like, oh, and that's why it then links to where Adysius is. And I wonder if that's almost intended to create some suspense in the retelling of the tale there rather than just being like Adysius woke up and heard the girls. There's this extra >> tension build extra tension. the fact that it starts with just her and you learn about her day and you're like, well, >> what's that?

[00:28:36]>> Yeah. How is this relevant in any capacity?

[00:28:38]>> I should say that I mean there are amazing as it were technical methods that Homer uses. I think this is one of the first pieces of literature.

[00:28:49]>> Where's he got this from? And the idea that you know you bring in a new scene with a new person.

[00:28:53]>> Yeah.

[00:28:54]>> And as you say, Yes. Suddenly we're in in Scaria and we have these fatians and this young princess going to town going out of town in order to wash things by the seashore. So I mean this is the kind of technique you'll find in in modern filmography.

[00:29:10]Um that's just one I mean so what happens later when a disuse um is is taken to town and is entertained by our co >> is they [clears throat] say well tell us your story and then we have you know 9 to 12 four whole books 9 10 11 12 >> in which it's a flashback what an extraordinary device >> one of the first books ever written so that we learn what has happened since Ray left Troy because we don't know that because of course we start with him on Calypso's island.

[00:29:41]>> That is after he has left Troy and had to um because of a shipwreck end up on that island.

[00:29:50]>> Yeah. Is Homer certainly wasn't scared of tangling up the narrative web.

[00:29:55]>> No. And and the other thing is of course it gives a disuses narrative plausible deniability in the sense that you say is he actually telling the truth? I mean this is his story. Yeah.

[00:30:06]>> This isn't Homer saying this is what happened. This is a disuse saying, you know, I met this oneeyed giant. Yeah.

[00:30:12]This is a disuse saying, you know, all these I went down to the underworld.

[00:30:16]>> So to what extent are we meant to actually believe him, >> right?

[00:30:20]>> And you know, in a sense, Homer can say, well, you know, that's the story Odysius is telling.

[00:30:24]>> Yeah.

[00:30:25]>> So it's not coming from me.

[00:30:26]>> Yeah. And there are so many instances where he also we see Adysius embellish or tell only part of a story to suit his me his his his mo his need in that moment.

[00:30:37]>> So again there's a bit of a debate as to whether we are meant to see this series of stories that he tells as similarly mendacious. So some of the later stories when he lands on Ithaca and he claims to be a cretan sailor and so on so forth.

[00:30:54]We know he's lying.

[00:30:56]Are we supposed to project that back onto this series of stories which he tells the felation say well he's he's just a pathological liar >> right yeah he just loves to lie >> I mean I think actually there's some quite persuasive scholarship just know actually this is meant to be taken as part of >> the flashback so okay >> we should accept that at this stage a disuse is telling the tale >> he is very upfront when when he's asked his name he immediately says oh I'm a massive liar it's Wait. Oh, okay. You're just going to deploy that sentence first. But he boldly does.

[00:31:33]>> And maybe that informs us a little that he is in a mode of truth at that stage.

[00:31:39]>> Exactly.

[00:31:40]>> Perhaps. Perhaps. Perhaps.

[00:31:41]>> Yeah.

[00:31:42]>> Well, I mean, I think it's left ambiguous in fair.

[00:31:44]>> Absolutely. So, so there we are anyway.

[00:31:46]We're we're on Scaria >> and there's this wonderful scene where Nasikar, this beautiful young princess, decides that they'll play ball on the beach and the ball falls into the water and the women shriek and that wakes Adysius up and he crawls out from behind this book. And when I was reading this in Greek at school at the age of about 13, >> y >> um I noticed that there were a couple of lines missing the week, you know, it it moved from sort of 295 to 298 and I thought, well, what's 296 and 7? Yeah.

[00:32:18]And I went and had a look at the longer text. So this is a school text we were using. And that was the bit where it says he covered his genitals with a bush. Okay. With with a >> which was censored for the for the for the youngsters. Yeah. You know, how are you supposed to translate that in in a school?

[00:32:34]>> Yeah.

[00:32:34]>> In the 19th century, these were 19th century text was still used.

[00:32:37]>> Right. Right. Right. Right.

[00:32:39]>> Yeah. You'd go school was trying to translate the word meda, which means basically bulls.

[00:32:46]>> Okay. Yeah. A challenging one for any any teacher, I would imagine.

[00:32:51]>> So that's what he does anyway. He calls out covering his nakedness with um >> with a branch. And uh now stands her ground unlike all the all women who >> and he thinks well how am I going to address her and he then makes a very flattering address you know are you actually a goddess uh but if you're not you know perhaps you can help me because I'm trip and she says okay you know I'll help you tells the women to give him the chance to wash himself and clean him clean up and have clean clothes and then says follow me into town. uh stand walk a little behind because they don't want people to say oh look Nancy Car's bringing this handsome man young man potential suitor and a potential husband for so of course that's what's in her mind but you get quite a lot of that >> again it's it's very cleverly done very nuance so Nancy car's thinking you know he is a marriageable man of course we know he's not because he's going home to Penelope >> right >> um later stage even says you know he's the kind of man you would want to marry >> yeah and I think at one stage he offers his daughter's hand in marriage. I think that there's a line where he says almost in passing, he's like, "Take my daughter's hand in marriage." It's like, "Well, that came from nowhere."

[00:34:09]>> Well, that's right.

[00:34:09]>> And he doesn't even know his name at that stage. He still says it, which is very bold.

[00:34:14]>> A lovely stranger. Yeah.

[00:34:15]>> Seemingly. Yeah.

[00:34:16]>> But there's that wonderful kind of undertoe of, you know, possible romance.

[00:34:22]>> And at the end when the deceased leaves and he very graciously says, you know, you saved my life to Nasika. It's almost as if you say, "I'm really sorry I couldn't stay back."

[00:34:30]>> Yeah.

[00:34:31]>> And marry you, which is what you would have liked.

[00:34:33]>> Kind of led you on a little bit perhaps, and then sort of recedes back into into his his former goal.

[00:34:40]>> So anyway, so she takes him into town and she advises him to throw himself on the mercy of the queen. His name is Arete.

[00:34:49]Um, not to be confused with the Greek word arete, which means virtue.

[00:34:53]>> Okay. They invite him in as you go with that >> at this stage asking his name. They give him what you call zenia guest friendship or hospitality.

[00:35:03]>> Mhm.

[00:35:04]>> And the the queen's position is I think somewhat unusual because it's when when he's told who to address, he's told to address the queen first and sort of supplicate to her. And it it kind of reads like she's ultimately the one that's in control of of the proceedings.

[00:35:26]At least that's the impression I got was that she was the authority and the king is there and the king comments on things and is very vocal etc. But there's a a piercing sense of logic and of foresight or or something which is special to her which I don't know if we see a huge amount of in other areas of the text. It seems like this queen is especially >> No, that's right. Actually, she's unusual in that respect.

[00:35:59]>> I mean, in in the modern lens, you'd ask like is is this a feminist character? Is there something there? I'm curious if you have an immediate sort of feeling as to as to what that would be or what that might be intended to read as for the audience or not read as but to be heard as by the audience. I think perhaps it's more of an anthropological um observation and that Homer is >> setting the scene for >> um a location which >> has a powerful queen. Now, of course, this is going to reflect to some extent on what's going on in Ithaca >> because [clears throat] there are similar questions there because um who's in charge? Well, apparently in a disuses absence, Penelopey is in charge, >> right?

[00:36:48]>> And in order to take control of the island of Ithaca, she has these is it 108 suitors or however many there are.

[00:36:57]>> Um, all trying to get her hand. So, she's the important she's a lynch pin.

[00:37:03]>> And they're both weavers. They're both commented on as as both.

[00:37:07]>> Yeah. So I think there's there's something about these sorts of islands have queens who are almost as important as the writings.

[00:37:18]>> Yeah.

[00:37:19]>> Because I mean in the end it's not she who says >> come in and you know it's Al Kinnamus the king who actually welcomes Medicus in and and >> then runs the proceedings. Yes. So although she's the opening to that, >> in the end it's still very much a patriarchical.

[00:37:37]>> Yeah. The the king then takes the reigns I I feel and and goes through the formalities as as you'd sort of expect.

[00:37:45]>> It's just that there is this element of her presence I feel like in power.

[00:37:50]>> Yes.

[00:37:50]>> In a way that could have been emitted [clears throat] perhaps and wasn't. And the fact that it wasn't is interesting to me.

[00:37:57]>> Yes. I mean all of this this and indeed the portrayal of Nasika and washing and so on led Samuel Butler fierously to write a book called >> the authorus of the Odyssey to suggest yes so back in the 19th century I forget exactly when yeah >> Samuel Butler wrote this book in which he says all of these things and subtle indications that she wants to be married and all the suggest that the person who wrote or perhaps well he would have said wrote with the Odyssey was indeed a woman, >> right? Okay. And that is how accepted generally as a is it like a 1% of people feel feel that way? Less than 1% one.

[00:38:41]Okay.

[00:38:41]>> I mean it was picked up by an author about um 15 years ago who basically said I agree. Sure.

[00:38:48]>> So there there are some people who will >> but that's one in a 100 years kind of thing. [laughter] >> Exactly. Okay.

[00:38:54]Um, just because of what we know, what we think we know of archaic Greek society, >> there are no women bars, >> right?

[00:39:04]>> None.

[00:39:05]>> No.

[00:39:05]>> Okay.

[00:39:06]>> Uh, so it's the kind of thing men do.

[00:39:10]Um, you know, there are traditions going back no doubt centuries of male bars >> wandering around and singing their songs.

[00:39:21]>> And that's true in the modern world as well. So when Milman Perry and Albert Lord did their investigations in the 1930s in what was then Yugoslavia, uh they were recording Serbian oral Bards, >> right, >> who would sit in cafes or squares and sing traditional songs. Mhm.

[00:39:42]>> Um, so no no women bars >> and that just to close the loop on that for the audience in my understanding and I only know this because I think it's mentioned in the the preface in the Wilson version was some of what has informed modern thought on the composition of the piece originally because there was questions at one point as to whether it was oral poetry perhaps or this at least helped us trace it to being a an oral presentation of this this >> yeah I mean it's absolutely clear that it was originally composed right >> orally and is is clear from the nature of the the formulaic nature of the text >> but the that that being a sign of oral poetry was backed up I think by these investigations correct >> yes it was so although it was already recognized by by German schol in the early 17th century that this was an oral or poem uh that gave us the kind of pretty well hard proof.

[00:40:45]>> Yeah. Okay. these investigations. But that doesn't mean that you know what we have inherited is or what we inherited of course is a written text >> right >> and it seems fairly clear that there are various stages from getting from orality to the written text >> and it's very murky but my view what it's worth is that the oral poem the original oral sung poem of a bard who I think was probably called Homer >> you know there's too much ancient evidence for for that uh would have been perhaps 6 6,000 7,000 verses whereas this is more than 15,000 sorry Odyssey's 12,000 the Iliad got you so together you're talking about roughly you nearly 30,000 verses >> that I think is an increase over the centuries right >> from an original core of sung musical verses u of epic >> right And Greek language has up and down tones.

[00:41:51]We call them accents because they were in the 3rd century BC accents were invented to suggest this is where your voice goes up and down when you speak it. Uh we currently think that Homer would have followed more or less that profile in attaching those uh high and low pitches to notes as he sang with a liar.

[00:42:17]>> Wow. So he say that the word for good in Greek is agathos and your voice rises on the last and if you'll sing it you'll go aathos da da d you know you will go up at that point and so one can work out a kind of tune to which this was sung I was looking at that so one of the things I do is is one of have done is I thought a lot about ancient Greek music of which we have a lot of evidence and um I noticed that um well statistic ically uh the lines end with a falling cadence. So in Greek you tend to have at the end of line that sort of thing.

[00:42:57]>> Wow.

[00:42:58]>> Uh so that was something that was presented by a scholar called Stefan Hargle and the statistics that it's not random that most of the lines end that way. So I asked what seemed to be the obvious question. What happens when they end on a high note? And I noticed that there are far far more verses that ends on a high note that end a paragraph or end a sentence. So it's almost like a musical signature uh whereby if he says for example in line five of the Iliad and the will of Zeus was fulfilled and his voice rises and that is a key moment. And then at the end of that first paragraph in line seven he talks about the the two protagonists. He says a trade is the king of men and goodly Achilles and in Greek Achilles >> and it's like you know wow there's a moment of pause. So I looked through the first book and I'm going to do all the statistics on everything. I just wonder and this is what I'm hoping >> if this is a a musical signature can we find it in those bits of the Iliad which are the original song. Right.

[00:44:15]>> And not in other bits which were added later.

[00:44:18]>> Yeah. It would it would be akin to looking at the patchwork and recognizing the different materials.

[00:44:23]>> That's exactly it. And also is fascinating for the audience listening to this would maybe they'd be able to miss a miss a word, miss a line of this mass of text or mass of of oration, but still from the inflection and the musicality and the melody, be able to know how a scene was going, which is such a a a conception I've not thought of at all in relation to any of this.

[00:44:51]You know, we talk about him being an oral pope, but of course he was an oral singer.

[00:44:54]>> Right. Right. And he was singing two discrete musical tones and I think not not enough was being made of this. Um I'm embarking on the research and I will eventually write a book called Koma the Bard, >> right?

[00:45:12]>> And uh in which I will hopefully have some results to show it. But that's >> wonderful. Yeah.

[00:45:18]>> 2028. That is your your odyssey awaiting you.

[00:45:22]>> But to get to get back to the Odyssey story, here he is then on the island and Archinus welcomes Nin and he um puts on a show for him. He puts on the songs demodicus these three songs to which drive disuse to tears and he puts on an athletic gains and the disuse shows his prowess as we discussed. And then he says, "Tell us who you are." And then from books 9 to 12, we get the so-called apolog which is Adysius's own story of what has happened to him ever since leaving Troy. Tells the various adventures of which the real center point is this wonderful story of uh the island. We don't know the name of it on which he encounters the cyclops. The cyclops turns out to be this deadly giant who eats all his lots of his friends. So let's let's let's zoom into that >> for sure, but also in the context of the fact that the Fiatians left their original land mass which was proximate to the the cyclopes. Is that pronunciation fine? Uh >> they left. They then end up in Fatius Scaria and they have a a a new colonized land mass in that.

[00:46:48]>> Yes.

[00:46:48]>> And I'd love to hear your thoughts on >> what the implications of that are for our understanding of how the Greeks did conquer new land or or or create colonies. There's a there's a specific line in the Wilson translation is referred to as a fertile colony. Yeah.

[00:47:07]>> And there's so much in the text about guest friendship. And if you extend this this this this custom to your guests, then you are you're bonded not just for life, but your descendants even have a sort of bond, I think, that they inherit to some extent.

[00:47:27]>> Yes. And so in a world where much of the Odyssey's goal is to say you should make friends with everyone. It's the moral thing to do.

[00:47:35]>> Yes.

[00:47:36]>> It's interesting to question and wonder where does conquering a new land fit in amongst that. Is it solely in scenarios where there's been no friendship offered or >> right and one thing I would say is that the word colony >> uh is very misleading. So the Greeks the Greeks created settlements all around the Aian and uh then you know the first external settlements were in the Italian peninsula.

[00:48:05]>> So Italy and Sicily we learn a lot about these homes away from home. The Greek word is appia, a home away from home.

[00:48:14]And they, the translation always was colony, as if they had destroyed um people who had already lived there, >> like it was a replacement or something, >> but basically it wasn't. Actually, when one reads that bit about um the land of Scaria, >> they say um this is what Odicius is looking around. He says, "The trees are tall, luxurant with fruit, bright colored apples, pears, and pomegranate, sweet figs and fertile olives, and the crop never runs out or withers in the winter, nor in the summer.

[00:48:48]>> Fruit grows all year round. The west wind always blows and makes it swell and ripe and mellowing pear on mellowing pear. Apple on apple, grapes on grapes and figs. A fertile vineyard, too, is planted there. They use the warmer side, a fattened slope for drying grapes in sunshine. They pick bunches and trample them while unripe crusters open and showed their blues and others turned to bill. So this is the kind of lovely place >> that a Greek might think of creating a settlement in.

[00:49:19]>> Mhm.

[00:49:20]>> I don't think in general we're talking about finding hostile inhabitants and then defeating them and creating >> colonies. That's not really how it's done. I mean there no doubt would have been inhabitants in many of these areas but many of them would have been as were virgin territory virgin territory and um the Greeks then >> created these cities all around and I think slightly later from that passage towards line maybe 125 of of book nine there's a mention of the land of the cyclopes now which I think is direct contrast to what you've just quoted >> and it says there are no flocks of sheep No fields of plow land. It is all untilled, unsewn and uninhabited by humans. Only the bleeting goats live there and graze. Cyclopic people have no red cheicked ships and no shipwreck among them who could build boats to enable them to row across to other cities as most people do, crossing the sea to visit one another. With boats, they could have turned this island into a fertile colony with proper harvests.

[00:50:23]And it almost feels like there's a condemnation of the the the cyclopes here in not establishing >> a a colony in the in the translated sense of the word, but more so this home away from home because there's a lack of of traditional custom that is being upheld. And I think >> that seems like and be curious to get your opinion on this. It seems like if you boil down all of Homer's central t tenets of his proposed thought, one of the things that he really wants to get across a lot of the time is you should kind of follow the rules of society.

[00:51:01]>> Very much so.

[00:51:01]>> And so this is direct contravention to that and therefore we as an audience are immediately predisposed to dislike the the cyclopes here because of the vast amount of material that says good things happen if you follow the rules.

[00:51:16]>> Yeah. And there are uncultured folk who aren't turnies into the kind of lovely settlement that they could do, >> right? Yeah. And they should almost like it's it's a it's an obligation of them to tend to the land and etc etc. >> Exactly. Um, so we we get this story of the the entry into the cave by Adysius and his men being in the cave and the Cyclops eating a pair of them and this this this tale that we referred to right at the start of our conversation. Is there is there something to make of this in a sense of of of our understanding of his cunning? Because something I have tried to grapple with through my reading of the text is there's all this conversation about how smart Adysius is and how wy and ultimately the solution here as much as Homer kind of draws it out a little bit because we're not immediately told oh well I have a as Adysius I had a plan to stab him in the eye and then get out under a sheep like he sort of slowly unveils the steps. It doesn't immediately read to me as a modern new reader as being particularly genius until we get this sort of pun moment of the name. And that feels so fantastical and almost prophetic that I struggle to see it as anything other maybe than than some kind of godly insight that he may have have had in that moment. Although it's not referred to as such. To what extent should we think that he is genuinely a tactical genius and he's just seeing through the the mist of the future and and navigating it well?

[00:53:01]>> He makes too many mistakes to be a genius. And so he's an adventurer and he shows a certain degree of hubris >> by you know taunting the cyclops. I mean that's causing the final destruction >> which is an insane move to make. Cyclops knows his name and and falls onto side.

[00:53:20]So he he's not to be thought of as as as a strategic genius. Doesn't even present himself, right? I mean, he's doing it.

[00:53:28]He he wants to adventure into the island in the hope of getting booty. I mean, yet he tells us that and gifts. Maybe, you know, maybe maybe we'll come out here enriched, he says, when he gets into the Cyclops. So that's what he's about, >> right? Adventurer. He's a trickster and he gets a bit of his comeuppance as a result of all that trickiness. Yeah.

[00:53:49]Because like that clever move.

[00:53:50]>> I think even when he gets into the cave and is having the initial conversation with the Cyclops, I think he's sort of as far as I recall at least, the boulder is not in front of the cave entrance immediately.

[00:54:03]>> No, he's he's put there off >> and and it's sort of like, well, if you were just a bit less greedy, maybe you would have actually just been able to leave the cave. But instead, it's like, well, what if we get some some presents?

[00:54:14]>> I think that's right.

[00:54:15]>> So, there are two remaining things in that section of the text that I want to address before we move on to book 10.

[00:54:23]So, one is the question of why Adysius feels it so necessary to yell out his name. M >> is this a Cleos moment or is there an element of the fact that he's sort of not been around humans for a long time and he's a bit nuts at this stage? What do you feel is his underlying motive?

[00:54:44]>> I think it's Cleos.

[00:54:45]>> Yeah.

[00:54:46]>> Yeah. He he wants to be known. Um he wants his name to be out there as as the trap who fooled the Cyclops. Of course, it's it's a foolish thing to do. He's reporting his own his own folly >> in that sense. Of course, it harks back to the moral at the very beginning of the Odyssey where the gods say, you know, human beings destroy themselves through their own idiocy >> and and he's demonstrating that, >> right? Okay.

[00:55:13]>> Doesn't destroy themselves, potentially destroys all his all his comrades.

[00:55:18]>> Yeah. And and subsequently will do through further further actions.

[00:55:23]>> Yeah. because on first read that was a >> very surprising moment to me that he would go out of his way to do it to the extent that he does.

[00:55:32]>> Yeah. Um >> I mean I think that kind of element of boastfulness, >> you know, which uh >> one can kind of see in the context of the herriic desire for chaos >> um is something that Adysius tells against himself actually.

[00:55:49]>> Right.

[00:55:49]>> Yeah. And so it is a bit surprising. An example though of where he doesn't uh counter himself or talk himself down in any way is in book nine between roughly uh lines 410 and 420 where he specifically says I laughed to myself at how my name the no man M maneuver tricked him and he's really explaining the joke to the audience there and patting himself on the back at the same time. So he clearly has it in him to beat himself up uh rather than be very candid about his his sort of his shortcomings.

[00:56:26]>> I was a fool, but he >> Yeah, it's interesting because I think through the whole text there are lots of instances where Homer feels the need to explain a moment, but then there are other instances where I think Homer does leave it to the audience to figure out and connect the dots. Is there a is there a pattern to that? Is it more or less it's just dependent on the scene?

[00:56:47]cuz I see it go both ways.

[00:56:49]>> Yeah, I I think it is dependent on the scene. It's >> varied.

[00:56:52]>> And this is so maybe complex a pun in the original Greek that it would have been worth hammering home that it was such a maneuver or >> Yes. Um I I mean it is a complex pun. Um it's not just not just the fact that he says my name is no one and then the cyclops shouts no one is hurting me.

[00:57:16]>> Right. It's also the fact that no one in its oblique form in Greek is the same word as cleverness.

[00:57:25]>> Oh, so um no one in Greek is utis. But if you say he said that no one was hurting him, yeah, >> it becomes matis and meatis in Greek is the word for cleverness or wisdom, right? Cunning. And of course that is the cunning that Adysius is so famous for.

[00:57:49]>> And so when we read it in the text we and he he said that Mayus overcame him.

[00:57:56]No one you realize that Homer is doing something really clever.

[00:58:00]>> Yeah. It's more layered than I [clears throat] >> a layered pun.

[00:58:03]>> Yeah. Understandable that Homer might want to be like yeah that was pretty good. It's not himself.

[00:58:09]>> Yeah.

[00:58:09]>> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So maybe maybe Odysius when it doesn't benefit Homer is more flawed and maybe is a little bit more polished when it's to Homer's to Homer's benefit.

[00:58:20]>> Um so we we get through the the cyclopes section. Book uh nine comes to a close and we end up in the entry to book 10 on the island of Aololis.

[00:58:34]And something to me that was quite surprising here is that Adysius is on Aololis and then leaves and then ends up back. And on his return, the tone of his reception changes immediately. And they yell is the translation that Wilson uses. Get out, you nasty creature. Leave my island now. It is not right for me to help convey a man so deeply hated by the gods. Is that a contravention of Zenia in the sense that he returned so fast and so he's sort of taking advantage or is it just that he's back and that's in itself weird?

[00:59:11]>> I think I mean it's very clear that Eis's answer response is to the fact that he has been given a chance. He's been given this bag of wind >> so he can go where he wants with it. Um and indeed he says we get almost incited if they go.

[00:59:30]>> Yeah.

[00:59:30]>> And then you know they think there might be some treasure in there. So they open it and then the winds go everywhere and it blows them back.

[00:59:38]>> And this shows to earless that he has as it were looked a gift horse in the mouth. M >> he has done something that is more he has failed to do something that is to his great advantage and therefore this must mean the gods really are angry with him.

[00:59:59]>> Okay. So it's the implication that something so maybe easy didn't go right that therefore the gods are not going to be looking at you favorably in such context.

[01:00:09]>> Therefore he's a god for safe an individual and should get him. So, this actually brings us to a theory I have that I'd love to get your opinion on.

[01:00:18]Something that I wonder about is if Homer has a moral stance [snorts] on delegation. And the reason I say this is I'll present my my little thesis here.

[01:00:32]>> There are several moments in the text where mo uh Adysius relinquishes control in some capacity and things immediately start going wrong. So in this context, he closes his eyes to sleep. His men are remaining goes wrong straight away. The uh the moment on the island where they slaughter the sun god's cattle, >> yeah, >> he [snorts] is removed from the situation, trusts his men maybe foolishly and has delegated responsibility to them >> and it it goes wrong immediately with very strong consequences. And it it happens so frequently that I wonder if Homer is trying to imply Whether it's every man for himself a little bit or if it's that you never really know if your fellow man is going to be reliable enough to entrust your life. Is there a do you feel like there's anything there?

[01:01:22]>> Another explanation isn't there that is that a disuse is saying I didn't do it Guff it was them >> fair happened to be asleep and they did this >> so there's a shing of responsibility maybe >> I mean there's a sense that he's presenting his case and saying I wasn't there you know I was dead tired and I left them to them. um or would treat him.

[01:01:42]>> He would do.

[01:01:43]>> He really would.

[01:01:44]>> Um so there's I think there's a defensive element to it.

[01:01:48]>> Uh I I think there may be something of your theory in that the leader is the one who gets things done >> right >> and should basically be in charge. And the irony is that when he shakes responsibility, it's always, as much as it makes his life harder, his men just die over and over and over again. Yeah.

[01:02:12]>> And that causes him great strife through the text when he's constantly crying about his dead men.

[01:02:18]>> And there's I wonder if there's a lack of recognition of his responsibility in the fact that he's lying. Maybe if he wasn't lying there or wasn't sherking, >> he would be confronting the truth of the matter, which is that he is the leader, but he doesn't do that. And so it this it's it's an unresolved wound maybe through the text.

[01:02:37]>> Um, so let's let's uh let's uh gallop onwards. If you if you just said that you think that there's something in that, then that makes me very happy.

[01:02:46]I've been incubating that theory ever since I started reading. There's a lot that happens in book 10. Honestly, through these next several books, and we we don't have time to go into extreme depth in all of it. We could we could be here for hours, and this is no doubt why you teach this stuff. Um, but >> yes, >> they are uh they get to how do you pronounce this one? Lragonia, >> Lragonia, >> Lragonia. And uh it's another situation of of uh hostile peoples that >> hostile cannibals. he's immediately uh sort of uh uh leaves and gets away from.

[01:03:20]And I think there's a altered version of the NA tale here kind of. There's almost a mirror where there's I think a girl that's maybe out walking or washing something or something like that. And then she leads uh his scouts, I think it is, back to the the the palace. Uh, and so it starts off being a subver. Well, it is a subversion, I think, of what you expect of repeated form.

[01:03:47]>> Uh, which I thought was really fun from Homer to be tricky in that kind of way.

[01:03:51]>> Yes.

[01:03:51]>> Um, but the the true core, I think you would agree, of book 10 is all of the events that happen on AA with Oh, with Cersei.

[01:04:01]>> Cersei. Yes. Which is a sort of dublet of Calypso. And so there's this magical woman who >> this he's happily has a lot of sex with.

[01:04:10]So you notice that you know he is told that he's got to subdue her by drawing his sword and making her kneel.

[01:04:18]>> Yep.

[01:04:18]>> And and then uh well he's told by the god Hermes that you know then she'll do your will.

[01:04:25]>> And so he does that and she immediately says let's go to bed. And he says okay.

[01:04:30]And then as where they get up the next morning, he says, you know, the problem is she's serving him breakfast. My men are still pigs, >> right? Yes.

[01:04:36]>> It's like, oh, oh, yes, that's an afternoon.

[01:04:39]>> Yeah. And then he stays there for a year >> and then he stays there for a whole year. He's having a good time and they're all having a good time because they change back.

[01:04:46]>> And is there a is there a question to ask there of I mean actually this this extends to the whole text and and is maybe worth a second to talk about. To what extent does Adysius have agency through a lot of this? because he's constantly told by whether it's uh a Calypso or whether it's Athena or or so many different people, this is what's going to happen. Theresas, I'm not sure how you pronounce it.

[01:05:12]>> Similar situation. There's this prophecy and it's a ladder of of ensuing events.

[01:05:17]>> And and indeed in this moment, >> the the sort of lack of agency is presented as well, if you sleep with me, yeah, I'll turn the men back. But it's kind well he kind of doesn't necessarily have a choice because he does need to save all of their lives. He's sort of sworn to do that.

[01:05:33]>> And I wonder to what extent fate is just weaving his story versus Adysius is carving out his path.

[01:05:40]>> I think that's that's quite an insightful recognition of how actually in the home epics uh fate and agency are intertwined.

[01:05:52]Um there's sometimes a phrase used double determination.

[01:05:58]>> Okay.

[01:05:58]>> So um a famous example of this is when Achilles thinks of killing Agamemnon because he's stolen his bride. Um at the beginning of the Iliad, Athena is said to come down and grab him by the hair and pull him back so he puts his sword back into its sheath. And so you ask did Achilles decide do that or did Athena make him do that? I mean that is a very specific example and and the point is really it's both.

[01:06:29]>> Okay.

[01:06:30]>> So hence double determination.

[01:06:31]>> Yeah. So the gods determine that you do something and you decide to do something. And as far as the ancient Greek mind is concerned, the homeic mind of course everything is determined by the gods. They're all powerful.

[01:06:44]>> But we see it as being our agency, >> right? And so we can take it on both levels which and that's important because it means we can't sherk our responsibility by saying the gods made me do it.

[01:06:57]>> I mean sometimes they try but they don't succeed in saying that.

[01:07:01]>> Uh but um at the same time we recognize that everything is ultimately the decision of higher powers. Is that in essence Homer's response to what I don't know if it would have would or wouldn't have been a question at the time, but something that religion I think deals with a lot today in the classic question that you'll have asked of uh if if God is good then why is there so much bad right and is it almost the way of Homer saying you do need to do your best. It's still not always going to go your way, but that doesn't alleviate the pressure on you to do your best. It's still a responsibility. Do you think it's that >> it is very much that >> essence? Okay.

[01:07:42]>> You just have to do your best. It's it's your duty, >> right? In spite of the fact that the world won't always >> It may. Yeah.

[01:07:50]>> Doesn't mean that you shouldn't, >> right? So, let's let's gallop onwards.

[01:07:54]We're going to go zooming through here to the land of the dead, which we've we've already discussed. We've discussed book 11 a little bit. I would be curious to hear um do you feel because I felt this that this part of the text is I think it's the most surreal part of the entire thing and it's also sort of the messiest to me. There's moments where he's doing one thing with the blood and the spirits that are gathering >> follow one rule and then they seem to not follow the rule a few pages later.

[01:08:27]Or there's a moment for example where the comment from uh I think it's Theresas saying uh something about uh Penelope and how she's not allowed the suitors to pursue her >> but then immediately afterwards um he speaks to his mother and he I think asks his mother has Penelope been faithful more or less when Theresius just told him the answer. It seems like a bit of a im immediate lack of of of connecting the dots from him.

[01:08:59]>> Yes. Yes. I mean, there are It's interesting you should say that. I mean, there are some messy bits >> in an epic of this kind, you would expect there to be things that aren't completely sequential. I mean, there are in novels and modern and things where we can read and reread them. When you imagine that originally this is a continuous tale, >> one of the things the Bard is doing is is is repeating chunks. anyway because it's kind of formula. So if someone says something, >> the next person to say something about the same thing may well use the same words.

[01:09:32]>> Yeah.

[01:09:33]>> So I think there is that kind of messiness that we can expect and it happens remarkably little given the length of these. Uh and I think that's that's a case in point. I mean, another one might be when Adisuse gets home and he uh has reveals himself >> uh to Tmicus and Penelopey and Jus and everyone else and then he meets his old poor old father Leertes and he starts off by telling him a tall tale, >> right? And you think, well, why? Now, you could say it's Homer being very psychological and saying that, you know, after all these years of telling tall tales, he can't even get it up at that point. No, I'm not sure I believe that.

[01:10:15]I think it's more that there's a a bit of material there of being asked who he is and him saying, "I'm, you know, a cretan pirate or something, right?"

[01:10:25]>> And and Homer has stuck it in, but then it doesn't quite work because, you know, Le is so unhappy and then Adysius says, "Oh, no, no, it is me after all." You think, "Well, what was the point?"

[01:10:34]>> Yeah. Some some incredible trickery you got there, Adysius, to unfold it immediately afterwards.

[01:10:41]>> Yeah. Um so so I mean one can try and rationalize those kinds of episodes or one can say well actually it's a little bit of the bard just getting carried away with singing.

[01:10:52]>> Yeah. And I felt that in throughout really that book where there's so many stories that you're regailed with of all these different sort of celebrities I feel like of of the the the pantheon. And I found it a little difficult as someone new to classics to figure out why I was being told certain things and what the messaging ultimately was. Uh there's one moment where uh I I sort of struggled not to just glaze over a little bit because I was like, well, I don't know who any of these people are and it's so specific. It really recounts their story. But your explanation maybe illuminates the fact that >> to some extent Homer is repeating things that you would know. There is form to that. And so it's like the stage of the epic where the audience would be like, "Oh, I know that story. I know that story as well." And there's a satisfaction maybe to >> all the women you mean who who become kind of famous heroins >> and um he does just go through their various stories. In fact, there's um a contemporary of Homer, a Heathot, who wrote uh an epic or sang an epic which was precisely listing >> the heroins. Okay. And and this feels as if it's a kind of rival attempt to do something.

[01:12:14]>> Ah, okay. Wow. That's an interesting Fred.

[01:12:18]>> Yes. Uh so to be a rivalry, there are several >> uh I mean they were supposed to have been rivals, >> right? Uh um but of course Homer is good at giving lists anyway and rather likes that you know the lists of ships in Iliad too and so and he has he has a list of famous women. So I think he's he's doing what he is doing and giving us names.

[01:12:40]>> Gotcha. Okay. In a way that he doesn't necessarily so much in other parts of the text. He's like this is my moment.

[01:12:46]>> He said get lost.

[01:12:47]>> Um >> I think there is something in there. And within that as well, again to proceed our our gallop forwards, he >> gets to the end of some of this taleing and then he very abruptly shuts it down.

[01:13:00]He's telling a story and at one point he's sort of like, well, I could tell tales all night, but I'm I'm kind of good. And then I think he gets drawn back in to tell the tale of Agamemnon.

[01:13:09]But then even even that after a few characters, Achilles and and Heracles, he then it's like, well, I got a bit spooked about the idea of the Gorgon being present, so I I just got got out of there and and left. And it's it's very abrupt in a way that now reads to me, and I I'm I'm giving Homer a character here that I don't think is is accurate, but uh it almost feels to me like Homer has a moment of self-awareness where he's like, "Oh, wow. I've been talking a lot about so many different people. I probably need to pack it in now and move on with the story cuz we could be here forever. Um, so >> it could be something of that kind. It could just be that. Yes. And you're right, it is a bit abrupt.

[01:13:53]>> Yeah.

[01:13:54]>> I mean, he talks about that masses of the dead came thronging round. Cold fear seized me um in case, you know, the Gorgon would come.

[01:14:03]>> Yeah.

[01:14:03]>> And I hurried back, which is so much less climb on board the ships and least the cables. Yeah.

[01:14:09]>> Yeah. I say it's a kind of quick ending to a very long story, >> right? Yeah. Exactly. So, we then move into the one of the books that we've we've not talked a huge amount about.

[01:14:20]Um, and we will be brief, but he returns to uh the island that he previously had left from to go to the underworld. And the uh proposition he's given by Cersei is you could go one way, which sounds terrible, or you could go another way, which sounds maybe marginally less terrible. And he doesn't even outwardly make a choice. He just does the the latter. There's no comment on the former, I don't think, at all. Mhm.

[01:14:48]>> And something that I thought was quite interesting is I've always known the story to be that his ingenious scheming meant that he but also his his bravado maybe meant that he was the one to come up with the plan of plugging his his shipmates and his his his crew's ears, but actually it's just proposed to him by Cersei.

[01:15:11]>> Yeah. She says if you wish >> you could do that. And I I I think that the popular interpretation of that is very much that it's his doing as opposed to her original idea.

[01:15:22]>> Um I think that's just permeated through culture.

[01:15:25]>> That's right. I mean I think it's interesting that you brought that up and going back to the Laquia where Teresa says all these things are going to happen. It's as if he doesn't hear him you know he then asks you know is it true that Penelope is faithful to me too? He asked as well um I mean one could say well you know prophets are never believed I mean terasus famously says things which for example Edypus doesn't believe in in Edifus story of >> um so it could be that it could be that it just goes in one ear and out the other >> or it could be that [sighs] Homer is not too concerned learned to repeat something or even contradict it in the way that um you're suggesting here. Um there's um you know there there's this instruction by Cersei. This is you know what you could do and then he does it.

[01:16:35]It's almost as if Homer doesn't really expect us not to give Adysius the credit for doing it.

[01:16:42]>> Right. Okay.

[01:16:43]>> Um because although Cersei has said it, he's he's somewhat ignored it and he goes on and he decides that's what I'll do.

[01:16:49]>> And so therefore, he deserves the fame for doing so.

[01:16:51]>> Okay. There different kind of double determination from one you're talking about. But it's like >> you do find a bit of this in Homer and and it may just be a feature of the way the story is told.

[01:17:02]>> Yeah. And sometimes people say, "Oh, Jehovah wants to anticipate." So this is such a good thing, such a good story that I will tell it in advance. I'll get Cersei to tell it.

[01:17:12]>> Right.

[01:17:12]>> So So that happens a lot, too.

[01:17:14]>> Yeah. And that even happens with the the cattle, which we're about to come to where it's the opening of the entire epic.

[01:17:21]>> So we know that's going to happen. He he's he wants to anticipate these things >> and it's multiple times even because we then hear the the prophecy of this and all these sort of repeated instances where they're like, "Yeah, the the cattle thing is really going to be a problem or it already was a problem."

[01:17:36]Like it's from both angles that we approach that kernel.

[01:17:40]>> Uh one of my favorite parts of that that moment in book 12 >> is line 390 to to sort of 400. And I don't know if this is Emily Wilson's swarm somewhat taking liberties with her translation or not. Uh but back on shore beside my ship, I scolded each of them.

[01:17:58]It did no good. The cows were already dead. Well, dead already. The gods sent signs. The hides began to twitch. The meat on skewers started mooing raw and cooked. There was the sound of cattle loing, etc. The idea of these meat skewers mooing is crazy and funny also because in the modern day we talk about uh like oh my steak is so rare that it's still mooing and it seems like Homer had the same the same idea way back in the day which I think is hilarious.

[01:18:29]>> There's something supernatural about that.

[01:18:31]>> Right.

[01:18:31]>> So we find very little supernatural actually. M you know obviously these are tall stories giants and some monsters and so on but this is something really weird isn't it?

[01:18:44]>> Yeah the the the meat starts to to move.

[01:18:47]>> Yeah. Um, and it reminds me of a section in the Iliad >> when there there's a prophet called Theocinus just before the uh death of the suitors who has a vision and he sees the suitors are all laughing and and he sees them all covered in blood and and ghostly and it's this incredible spooky vision. Um, and I think, you know, occasionally Homer likes to give us a spooky idea. Yeah.

[01:19:19]>> And this is one.

[01:19:20]>> It really is. Uh, similar to when he tries to hug his mother and fails.

[01:19:24]>> Yeah.

[01:19:24]>> And it's it's to me an image that is very stark. This idea that he is almost reduced to being a boy in that moment as well. And this this book which deals so much with themes of childhood and fatherhood and becoming an adult.

[01:19:38]>> And he he really just wants his mother in that moment. is the one thing that he just can't have as much as he can talk to her.

[01:19:44]>> Ghost um something that is picked up by Virgil in the Anid um you know Anas tries to embrace his wife in the underworld she sort of >> uh flits away.

[01:19:58]>> Yeah. So the cattle scene plays out as we know the poor fools slaughter the cattle and ultimately that leads to the events that we then pick up from at the very beginning of the text. So we've kind of closed the the gap that was was uh at that stage present and we then know the events from that point onwards where in the beginning of book 13 Adysius is dropped off at >> dropped off on >> at Ithaca unbeknownst to him that it is Ithaca. Yes. And the final thing that I I want us to to talk about momentarily is the Fiatians return, but their ship is turned to stone.

[01:20:45]>> Yes. So Poseidon is furious. Yeah.

[01:20:47]>> Because they have helped him escape and to get back to Ithaca. And so he turns their ship to stone. It becomes a sort of island in in >> Right. And I can't help but wonder what the implication is there for this land of Scaria fascia which has been described as being godlike and magical etc. even they are not uh outside of of judgment and even they do have to follow the rules >> and I don't think to my knowledge there's much conversation beyond that point as to what the fate is of those peoples >> of the fatians >> right okay >> all we know is that that ship is turned to stone is always told >> kind of implication is that the fatians you know they are blamed for always helping visitors and that they will no longer be in a position to do that because their ships will be turned to stone or whatever.

[01:21:46]>> But I also think that that is a clear suggestion that there was this rocky outcrop somewhere in the sea.

[01:21:54]>> Oh, and so it's like, how did that happen? That was when that ship, >> right, >> became turned to stone.

[01:22:00]>> So the audience might have gone, oh, I've seen that.

[01:22:03]>> Oh, or you if I sailed around that area, I would expect to see that, >> right? Okay. So I think it's something to do with, you know, the idea that how do these landmarks that look like, you know, ships that now are islands, right?

[01:22:16]How do they happen? And and maybe this is how.

[01:22:19]>> Wow, that's one. I had not even glancingly considered that as an idea, but that's a lovely thought that there may have been a little bit of Homer spotting something cool and going, I'm gonna put that in my story now.

[01:22:32]>> Yes. And I think that happens more than once. So we talked about the Cyclops before in my favorite theory. Yeah. But one of the other theories is that um there were mastadon skulls that the Greeks would come across and that they had these huge you know single eyes. So this is a giant human with a single eye >> and so thus the cyclopes >> the cyclops. Yes.

[01:22:54]>> Yeah. Wow. Okay.

[01:22:55]>> That's so so you you can start to see that there are ways in which some of these homeic tales might have some actual naturalistic background of that kind.

[01:23:04]>> Wonderful. Well, that brings us to the end of Fia, >> right?

[01:23:09]>> And brings us to the end of of the Fiatian tales, I think.

[01:23:12]>> I think it does. So, at the end of that, then um as you say, Adysius is dropped off on Ithaca >> and um initially doesn't recognize it, but then eventually the mist is cleared and he and there's this moving moment where he drops down and kisses the soil of his naked lad. Yeah, it's it's uh one of one of the uh turning points I think of the text in that in leaving Fia, I think we've to your original point at the very beginning of the conversation, we've sort of left magic.

[01:23:47]>> We've left magic behind >> and in kissing the sand, he's just kissing normal >> physical tactile stuff. And the book obviously then or the text or the the the poem uh continues from there in maybe somewhat more of a grounded sense in its ongoing uh ensuing pages. So this has been a wonderful conversation.

[01:24:09]>> I've had such a good time talking about all this stuff and I >> I've struggled to pass some of the uh uh uh content and so it's been very illuminating for me as well. So I'm very grateful.

[01:24:22]>> Yeah. So, if there's anything else you want to ask, do I think you >> Oh, I I'm sure the more I read, it will infinitely ask or or or pose questions to me. Um, I will put your website in the description of the video. So, if you guys want to find more of whether it's Arman's work, podcast, uh, information generally relating to what you do, it will be down there. And like I said, very grateful for the conversation.

[01:24:48]Thank you.

[01:24:48]>> Thank you. Bam.