The Media Game Has Changed

[00:00:00]One rule of old media is don't be interesting. Like that's the worst thing you can do.

[00:00:05]>> There is no way to get to anything resembling a story that you're going to like through the traditional media anymore. Like it's just basically not possible. Old media you had very restricted channels with very restricted formats. New media is unlimited formats, unlimited channels. And the brand is now the person, the grand wizard of this is Alex Carp. If you watch his interviews, he never talks about Palunteer.

[00:00:30]Everybody just naturally thinks inside out, me and my company and my product out into the world. Don't think that way. Think in terms of like what are the most interesting things happening in the world and then how do those things relate to us.

[00:00:39]>> Old media is defenseoriented. New media is offense. Talk more about why that is.

[00:00:44]>> There's still this anxiety that people have, which is legacy media somehow is like where the respectability is, the prestige is. I don't believe that anymore and I think it's very important for people to kind of get that out of their system.

[00:00:55]So, first I just want to say it's Gabby's birthday today. Uh, welcome Gabby.

[00:01:00]>> Uh, you know, I'm so excited the Knicks one and five for many reasons, but one is that Ben had floor seats to the game six and wasn't going to make it today. And so, we're so lucky that we we get to have Ben here. And uh you know Mark not a huge basketball guy but he uh he did tweet about how Jaylen Brunson he had a comment where that he operates purely on instinct uh not on introspection and uh Mark uh appreciate that >> [ __ ] maxing >> obviously working many people are saying you know across across industries and so I actually think that's a pretty interesting segue because one of the rules of of new media uh Mark that we were talking about with the CEO last week in our growth portfolio is uh authenticity and sort of being able to have the same conversations on camera that you would have um in person behind closed doors. Um why don't you talk about uh that that a bit more and and why that's so important uh to to really nail in terms of nailing your voice and and how to build that presence because a lot of mistakes that founders will make is trying to be too buttoned up, trying to be too media trained, etc. As we uncover the new rules of new media, why don't you start there?

[00:02:08]>> Yeah. So, I had this really formative experience when I was younger. So in the 90s when I was coming when Ben and I were coming up um and so you know in in those days it you know pre pre-blogs pre-YouTube all this stuff. Um and so in those days you know the assumption was 100% of what you did if you were running a company or doing anything was you're going to have to work through you know established media legacy media. Um and so and then everybody would get you know of course med you know media trained uh in how to do it and you know most painful experience in the world.

[00:02:35]>> Oh yeah. So for people who haven't been through media train it's actually >> watch yourself on TV. It's a >> Yeah. So, okay. So, here's how media training work. I don't if they have to I don't know if they still do it, but do they still do it? Do you guys still do it? Okay. Yeah, probably. Okay. So, free people who haven't been through it.

[00:02:47]Yeah. So, it's like you get put in front of one of these camera in your face and then and then somebody like, you know, who's supposed to who you think is your friend um you know, they do like the full 60 minutes interview with you. Um and and and you know, whatever. And then they, you know, for like an hour and then and then they literally make you sit there and watch it, which is just like the meanest thing you could do to somebody >> and and critique you and you're looking at yourself, [ __ ] it up. And they're going, "You see how you [ __ ] that up?"

[00:03:12]>> And you're like, "Wow, I'm really uncomfortable now. I'm never going on TV."

[00:03:15]>> Exactly. And you're like, "Can we just fast if No, you can't fast forward.

[00:03:17]We're going to watch the entire thing."

[00:03:19]>> Um, and then and then maybe we'll watch it again.

[00:03:21]>> Um, and so it is it is very revealing.

[00:03:24]Uh, and you discover all kinds of things about your personal a by the way. Also, you discover all the things you do, all the extra words, >> how much you hate your voice.

[00:03:30]>> Yes. Exactly. How much you hate how you look. I mean, it's incredible. It's incredible. And so, if your ego survives the beating, you go on to a successful career. Um and so um you know that's what you did and then and then but it was always so weird because it's like the result is just like it just always struck me as just like the result is like wow you see like important people with important things to say on TV or whatever they just seem like plastic people they just seem like you it's all very you know fake and staged and then by the way you know this is like you know in the old days it's like you know because all all the all the anchor people or interviewers are all like you know using you know anchor man voice and then you get a CEO up there who just says like the most innocuous things possible and a lot of CEOs in those days and by the way still they they they they rank their success in in in doing an interview or giving a speech based on minimum minimum controversy, right? So they come off stage I've worked with lots of CEOs like they come off stage they're very proud of themselves because they didn't make any news, right? Um so sort of like that and so >> yeah that is the key, >> right? So I go through the media so >> all news is bad news. So I I get we hire at the time a company we hired you know at the time was considered the best media trainer uh who was a guy um uh who uh had previously been a producer at 60 Minutes you know >> Leeldon Lee Zeldon who'd been a producer he'd actually he was he was actually quite quite a well-known guy at the time um he had been uh lol Bergman's producer and LOL Bergman became Bman no um >> well I mean Mike Wallace it was that whole complex but he's like he's like we're not doing any of the classic media training that we do he said we're going to do the thing that everybody always underrates which is we're going to get you to basically just say all the things in public that you would say if you were sitting having lunch with a friend, right? And I remember like the back of my head like, you know, just like blew open because it's just like, okay. And then and you know, and then immediately you're like, okay, why are we paying this guy that then it's like, you know, because that's like very obvious advice and it's like nobody else will give you that advice and what's going on. He just said, look, he said he said he said the following. He said, if if you are on stage or in an interview and you were talking about something and you don't know that topic inside out already, like what the hell are you doing there? So the only thing that you should ever be talking about is something that you know you know intimately. If you know it intimately, you should be able to talk about it in a viscerally interesting uh way. Um, you know, that really relay, you know, re relays your thoughts in the thing and you ought to be able to come across as a very interesting person because you're, you know, it's just like if you're sitting across the table talking to a friend and so he's like my my training is 100% to try to get you to not do all the other stuff and basically be able to do that. Um, and then you know the other part because this you assume the media is adversarial. The other part was then you know the the forget what he called the pivot or whatever which was basically just the you know the thing of like you never answer their questions, you always answer your own questions which is the Which by the way makes it a little unnatural, right?

[00:05:55]>> It does. It's the Jedi It's the Jedi But it's the Jedi Knight thing that that made that whole approach work, which is it's just like, okay, you're talking naturally. Well, one of the ways you talk naturally is you just refuse to answer the the bad questions and then you just substitute in your good good question. Anyway, so he he went through the whole thing. And so then then I, you know, we've been watching the evolution of the whole, you know, the whole the whole new media landscape for 30 years.

[00:06:12]And it's just like, wow, if you watch what Palmer Lucky does or if you watch what, you know, um, Alex Karp does or if you watch what Elon does or you watch what any of the great communicators do, like that's what they're doing. uh you know, I say put Jensen in in the in that rank, you know, lately. Um it's just like wow. It's like and and by the way, you know, this is the rise of the long form podcast, you know, the three-hour conversation. Um and um and and then just, you know, by the way, the sort of reise of the idea of just like interesting people having interesting conversations, which you know was very radical at one point, which is now now a common thing. Um and so I I think that remains the act the actual advice. And of course, Eric, to your point, what that gets across is is is authenticity, which is like, okay, am I, you know, in addition to what's being said, do I actually, as the viewer audience, do I actually feel like I'm meeting the real person?

[00:06:56]>> Yeah.

[00:06:56]>> Yeah.

[00:06:57]>> Yep.

[00:06:58]>> Yeah.

[00:06:58]>> Very good points.

[00:06:59]>> Related um we've been talking about how old media is defenseoriented, new media is offense. Um talking more about why that is and what that playbook looks like. One of the things we were talking about Mark also in that meeting is the importance of of outside in and situating sort of your story within the context of what's what's happening externally.

[00:07:17]>> Yeah. So the the press in my view and and reporters furious at me when I say this which is why I know that I'm correct. Um uh the the traditional press legacy press defined itself as having two functions right which one was you know impartial journalism objective journalism sometimes called the voice from nowhere which meant you know presenting both sides of something. Um, by the way, under the assumption that everything has two sides and and by the way, not more than two sides. And so that there's always something a little bit weird about that. But, you know, at least the idea of like showing an issue, explaining it, articulating it, letting different spokespeople, you know, for the different different points of view actually say it. Um, and then they had this the second mission was to speak speak truth to power.

[00:07:54]>> Yeah, that was the one that got in the way of the first.

[00:07:56]>> That's the one that got in the way of the first one. So, speak truth to power.

[00:07:58]And that became the way the way they ended up describing that was it was uh uh afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted.

[00:08:04]>> Yeah. Right. Uh, and of course, you know, at this point we we know what that means. Um, >> yeah.

[00:08:09]>> Well, it devolved into uh power to truth. So, it it's like the press's way of intimidating you into not saying what you thought. Um, so >> yeah. Yeah. Right. Because it's a line between like it's a line between actually objective and then and then and then activist, right? Some somebody with a somebody with an agenda. Um, and so I I think my view is what happened over time is that that second one just light swamped the first one and then it just became the thing. And and then as a consequence like just the the very nature of the interaction changed and you I mean the short version is I I you know I I did tons of traditional media between 1994 and 2017 and you know every once in a while there's a hit piece or a bad you know bad faith thing or whatever but like I don't know 90% of the time I felt like it had been a good idea to do it and I felt like you know I'd been given a chance to tell tell my thing. By the way, for for almost that entire run, most people in the country and in the press thought startups were kind of cool and tech was kind of cool and kind of fun and it was kind of good for America that there were these tech companies and the products were kind of fun to use.

[00:09:05]>> I I I kind of remember those days.

[00:09:07]>> Yeah. In in the ancient myths of of the past, you know, they they just, you know, and it was excit, you know, everything was exciting and then, you know, then a lot of reporters, editors, and you know, they they genuinely viewed as like, oh, we need to like explain this to our readers and our viewers and really really have this come across. And then as as we like to say like in 2017 it things changed. Um and basically since then my view is that that sort of second mode of of of being um uh you know which is a the sort of agenda driven you know kind of really took over which which I think and I think probably will never never actually unwind. Um and so it's just the practical reality as we always tell our founders like there there is no way um to get to anything resembling a story that you're going to like through the traditional media anymore. Like it's just it's it it's it's basically not possible. um you know every once in a while >> you can land a story but you you can't run a strategy. Yeah.

[00:09:53]>> Yeah. Like there people people point to indiv individual success and I'll just be like okay that's the you know that's the exception that proves the rule like you know there's 99 others um you know that are not like that and so there there just needs needs to be a new approach then I think the new approach is comes in comes in two parts. It it comes you know as we all call now go direct which is you have to tell your own story and increasingly through your own channels and through the channels of allies. And then the other thing is, you know, new voices uh and new media. Um and because because the legacy press has gone so bananas, you know, obviously there's this just massive opportunity that's opened up uh you know, for for for the creation of new media and it's just like the examples, you know, many many of whom are in this room are just spectacular, I think, I think, with what's happening. Well, it it used to be it's actually really funny. It used to be even in the golden age media like Charlie like if you wanted to watch a smart person talk about something for an hour, it was Charlie Rose. And when I was a kid in the 80s, it was Charlie Rose at midnight.

[00:10:45]>> Um there was something called the CBS overnight. Uh CBS News overnight and he was literally at midnight and I would and this is like you know pre the VCR and you'd stay up until midnight >> to watch a smart conversation and and to go from that to what we have today with in in the podcast world in the substack world is just such an incredible advance um and going incredibly well. So I think the new media world is just supremely, you know, just incredibly high quality, doing incredibly well. Um, you know, but but there's still this anxiety that people have, which is the legacy media somehow is like where the I don't know.

[00:11:13]I mean, it sounds so silly to say anymore, but like the respectability or the prestige is. And I I at least I don't believe that anymore. And I think it's very important for people to kind of get that out of their system because the world has changed to your point. So, so we were just in Washington and so we were with like all all the kind of Washington people, senators and whatnot and uh I was asking them you know what does everybody in Washington read and it's the Mark Halpran newsletter um which is new media uh so it's I fully expect Axio the Washington Post and so forth because by the way the one hold out from you know kind of people in the firm on like old media is well except for Washington they all read this old, you know, stuff and not even that is true. So, so I think Mark's right.

[00:11:58]>> Yeah, >> Mark, you mentioned um going direct.

[00:12:01]We're certainly in the era now of going direct. It feels like it's table stakes for founders. Um but I've talked to a lot of founders who feel that now they have sort of a second job of being the spokesperson for their company on top of running the business dayto-day. And you can even think of a lot of great founders who spent their lives or careers in a lab or staring at a computer and this is not what they've been trained in. So I'm curious both of your advice for founders who maybe are uninterested in doing this or they don't know where to start. Do they have to get good at it or are there other paths for them to get their company the attention it deserves?

[00:12:37]>> Yeah. So I think this is tricky. So if you if you just go okay old media and how did that work and new media? So old media um you had like very restricted channels with very restricted formats um and the brands were the companies. So like that that's basically the setup. So yes, you could talk to the New York Times or CNN or whatever if you wanted to get the word out. um but then you were forced into like a quote or a very short interview or something like that and then you were representing um a brand that wasn't you. And that's just kind of how it worked. And so the whole media strategy basically was just get your name out there without tainting the company to the point where like it could never recover. uh which is kind of how you got into this very defensive posture because you you can never take back anything. That was like a big rule in old media. Then you get to new media and new media is so the opposite in that it's unlimited formats, unlimited channels and the brand is now the person. So it's not like were people talking about like when every Democrat came out and was mad about SpaceX? They weren't. They were mad about Elon because he's a brand and the same thing like is is it Palanteer or is it Alex?

[00:14:04]Um and is it uh Andrew or is it Palmer?

[00:14:08]And that's just over and over again. So the companies that are winning in marketing, the brand is the person. And I guess like if you had another founder or somebody who is a really permanent fixture and not the CEO, you could imagine that person kind of getting that person off to the to be the brand, but it's going to be a person. Like I I don't think there's a way around that.

[00:14:34]And then the rule of new media is it has to be interesting because otherwise it's going to get drowned out. And so you have to be it has to be a person and that person has to be interesting. Uh, which is why old media is so dangerous because the one rule of old media is don't be interesting. Like that's the worst thing you can do. Um, you'll you'll f everything up. And so I I don't think a company can get away without it. Now like if you look at like us as a firm, like technically I'm really the CEO, but like Mark is more the brand I would say in terms of he just does way more media than I do. Uh, and that works, but it works because it's Andre and Horowitz and nobody knows the [ __ ] difference on the outside.

[00:15:18]It's fine. Um, and there are you can set up your company that way where they don't have to know how you're run. Like that's fine, but it's got to be somebody who's there kind of forever with uh the organization. It can't be like the vice president of marketing who's here for a three-year run and then is gone. Like that'll never work.

[00:15:35]>> Angel is another example.

[00:15:36]>> Yeah. Yeah. One of my favorite favorite things happens about once a week is when I get somebody congratulates me on writing Ben's book. Yeah, >> which he always takes full credit for.

[00:15:46]>> I do. I do. I just like I really poured all my blood, sweat, and tears into just I'm so glad I'm so glad that somebody finally read it. Um, so um you know, look, so so I think there's a um I think there's actually a technological explanation for what Ben said that that is actually I think quite important. So you know up until basically what was it been like the 1930s or something like companies were not they didn't have corporate brands.

[00:16:08]You you you you had it was the Ford you had you had people you it was the Ford Motor Company.

[00:16:12]>> It was Thomas Edison. Yeah.

[00:16:13]>> It was the Edison Electric Company, right? So the the it was just like name, you know, name on the it was literally name on the door. It just it never even I mean I'm positive it never occurred to Henry Ford to name his company anything other than the Ford Motor Company.

[00:16:23]>> Well, he did have a company before the Ford Motor Company, right? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:26]Yeah. Which was like I think I can't remember. Somebody's got to look it up.

[00:16:30]I think it became like Cadillac or something like it was like actually like a a car company that lasted but he got he was CTO. He wasn't CEO and he got in such a furious fight because he was a he was a hotthead Henry Ford um with the CEO that he quit his own company.

[00:16:45]>> Yeah. But a lot of those are Chrysler like Chrysler was what those are guys um you know a lot of those a lot of a lot of the early >> Oh yeah. They're all named after themselves and I I I think actually maybe it was like Ford and then when he quit they renamed it. That that could be it.

[00:16:59]>> Something else. Yeah. So so it was like it was like name on the door.

[00:17:01]>> Yeah.

[00:17:02]>> Um and it was just kind of it's taken as as a given because like that's the guy's running the company. That's that's that's what you do. And then I I think what happened is in the 30s, 40s, you started getting these, you know, international business machines, General Electric, you know, >> General Motors, >> General Motors, you started getting these these these abstract names. Then you and then you got the consumer brand thing, you know, with like Proctor and Gamble. So you had like Tide and Colgate and, you know, Crest Toothpaste and Coca-Cola and all these things.

[00:17:21]>> The nifty50, the conglomerate era. Yeah.

[00:17:23]>> Which led right, which led to the conglomerates, which were basically just piling up as many many brands as you could. And I and I think what happened was in retrospect I think that was because of the rise of centralized media specifically because before the 1930s like media was very decentralized like every town had like 15 newspapers. There were like tiny little radio stations everywhere. Um um and then you know starting in the 30s or 40s media centralized hard you know in a way that was very un you know unprecedented historically. Um and and and probably once once once once in a you know it's probably once in a thousand year thing that that happened. And then and then the thing with centralized media is just it's like it's like drinking everything through an incredibly narrow straw because there's just like by definition if there's three TV networks and there's 24 hours in the day. There's just only ever like how much time are you ever going to get or if there's the front page of you know three big newspapers how many column inches are you ever going to get? And so the the message from any company had to get distilled down to the absolute minimum to be able to get through those very narrow straws.

[00:18:13]And I and I think that that was the corporate brand phenomenon which is to get the thing down to like an atomic unit of a brand to be able to get it through to get it through that straw.

[00:18:20]But I and then everybody became convinced that like that was just universally the way the world worked.

[00:18:24]But I think that only actually made sense. Uh so um company as um abstract brand with like or corporate brand like I think that only made sense in the centralized media world. And I think what we're seeing as the centralized media world is now you know unwinding and collapsing. I I I think mechanically that's why this new approach is is is working and and is necessary because that's why because in the new world I mean you know the many examples of this but it's just like you know do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do people running for president have to go on Joe Rogan right and uh you know up until 2024 the answer was absolutely not after 2024 the answer is 100% they have to u right like a big part you know for keeping politics out of it a big part of all the democratic retrospectives of what happened in 24 was that was that Kamla didn't go didn't go on Rogan 100% % of the people who work in that world now think that the next person is going to have to go on Rogan. And to go on Rogan means you're going to have to be on Rogan for three hours and you're going to have to talk about anything. And so if you think about what that means, right, for the bar, for the person who's going to run, you know, for whatever party or, you know, for both parties or any party like that, that's the new bar. Um, you have to be able to do that. You have and right, you have to be interesting. And then it goes right back to your question. You you have to be the person who can do that.

[00:19:31]>> And if you're not the person who can do that, like >> well, you got to it's a big marketing deficit. Let's just put it that like like you you just put a ceiling on your whole opportunity. I think >> the line from succession of course I I can't avoid can't um not use based on your question is as it um um should have said if you can't write two elephants at the same time what are you doing in the circus?

[00:19:55]Yeah, >> I I would love to hear how you apply >> this thinking to your own work. Ben, you mentioned earlier or you mentioned before that you and Mark spend a lot of time discussing how and when to respond to things publicly and also when to not say anything. And so I'm curious what those discussions are like for you both.

[00:20:14]How do you decide when to fight back versus stay quiet? And maybe if there are times that you wish you did things differently.

[00:20:20]>> Yeah. So I I mean it it's interesting with that because anytime somebody says something negative about us, we want to respond. It's just like it but you you have to determine whether like that's going to improve your position or they're just feeding you bait to get you to basically highlight their stupid opinion.

[00:20:41]>> It'll always improve your situation if I >> Yeah, he always 100% wants to go back at him. You know, you have to have some discipline otherwise you just will spend your whole life responding. Like the bigger you get, the more people come at you. So, you know, it's kind of like the degenerate version is like dealing with the people who comment on Twitter or X, sorry. Like, so the if you start answering the X replies of people who have 50 followers, by the way, my father always did that.

[00:21:11]then like it's just like a colossal waste of time and you're amplifying somebody who has no audience. So like what are you doing? And then those people shouldn't even be talking to you.

[00:21:22]Like they didn't do anything in life to have the right to talk to you. Um but there you are talking to them and wasting your time. So like that's that's the extreme degenerate case. Um, however, like if somebody comes out with something and it hits uh and it's going after you, that's actually a real opportunity to boost the brand um to come across with your own point of view, your own position. And this could be something in the media or just you know something somebody does in new media uh that actually turns into real opportunity. a lot of, you know, I would say a reasonable portion of the brand that we built was just responding to people attacking us. Uh, so that I I always saw that every time that happened as great, let's go. Like I one of my favorite things I ever wrote was uh Instagram. We we got into like this kurfuffle over Instagram with the New York Times. We had a conflict, whatever.

[00:22:19]It was a thing. But then I responded um and it was like the biggest at that time the biggest post I ever wrote and everybody was like, "Yeah, [ __ ] that New York Times." And so it was it it kind of took us from here to here in one shot just because everybody loves a fight. So fights are good for brand building. Um but you got to pick the right fight to not just build somebody else's brand.

[00:22:42]Well, to that end, when I, you know, picking the battles, when I first joined, I would bring up these uh negative tweets we were getting and say, "Hey, you know, these anons are saying bad things about us and you guys would be like, who cares?" Uh, like this is in fact part of our success means we're going to have more and more people who are saying negative things. So, >> well, specifically that was they say they were they were saying things based on the things that we were funding, right? And they were like, you know, this is the whole the whole moment.

[00:23:07]>> You're funing slop.

[00:23:08]>> You're funny. It's like, bro, like it's great that we're funding things.

[00:23:13]>> Like what even if you think that what is better in this world than the transfer of wealth from people who have a lot of money to people who have ideas who want to build something like even if we're wrong about everything like that's still good for humanity. So like shut up you hater.

[00:23:28]>> Yes.

[00:23:29]>> Idiots. Hater. Um so uh yeah and then um uh and then uh you know that as my response was no like it's a great thing to great thing to get criticized for is for funing startups and supporting those startups like that that's fantastic.

[00:23:43]There's a kind of point within that that is also kind of an important change in new media which is you really want people to hate you and you want people to love you but you don't want to be neutral. You don't want to be lukewarm um because then you're uninteresting. So you're only you can't be interesting and not have people both hate you and love you just because there's too much no matter what you do there's too much jealousy and just haterate in the world to not have it be that because as soon as you get big that's what happens there there's nobody I used to when people used to get upset about like things that were written about us I like nobody's nobody writes a puff piece on like Rupert Murdoch or Elon Musk or like it's never going to happen again like it's over when you get to a certain size people hate you Um, and that's good because that means you did it. You did something important. You made a mark on the world. People care about what you're doing. And you have to take it that way.

[00:24:34]If you take it like, "Oh, I got to stop doing that so people like me," you'll you'll ruin your marketing.

[00:24:41]>> Yeah.

[00:24:42]The uh Mark, you've sometimes said the term, you know, they have all the right enemies. Uh so it's picking, you know, the right people to hate you that galvanizes the people to love you. Yeah, >> the um what about building uh the right marketing and media team in the age of new media? What what have you guys learned or what advice do you have for for CEOs in terms of making sure you get the right the right personnel or what's a principle you think about to building that team?

[00:25:06]>> Well, the first principle is if you're trained in old media, it's very very very hard to do new media. Um, so you have to be a very exceptional person to make that transition because it's like if you spent 10 years doing old media, there are laws of physics, there are rules of the game. There's things that you do every single time in terms of, you know, like, you know, from vetting reporters to uh rude Q&As's to this and that. Like everything about it is opposite world. And so there are very few people who can go, okay, I'm getting out of opposite world and I'm going into a new media world. So you just have to be careful about for the new media side of what you're doing to hire too much experience in not new media. Uh it looks like marketing, but it's not the same.

[00:26:02]Uh it's a completely new skill set. So I I would say like that's that's probably the thing that I'd worry about the most.

[00:26:10]Um, and then you know like with Eric, what we look for when we brought you on, for example, is the best thing on new media is have you done it? Have you kind of built some brand on something and some audience? Do you know how to build an audience? Um, because that's the core core thing. Uh, and if you can't do that, then you know, it doesn't matter if you've got this skill and that skill and the other skill. You've got you you have to be able to deliver it end to end.

[00:26:38]>> Yeah. And in terms of people we've brought on, you know, like Alex Denko or Henry or or Brent, you know, they um they were product managers or founders or investors, but they were obsessed with the discourse, the you know, they were listening to the podcast. They were writing themselves. You could tell in the proof of work even though they weren't doing the thing.

[00:26:56]>> Yeah. So story like storytelling on your new media team that that's such a good point. So the reason why Alex is so good is like he's a worldclass storyteller.

[00:27:04]Like so forget like just take marketing out of it for a second. like can you put together a story that somebody wants to read or listen to or whatever? And that's that's a real skill and like the elite level of that is way higher than the average level of that. And the people who can't do it, by the way, can never do it like that. And many people from kind of old marketing world don't have that skill because you know you always would rely on uh whatever the principal, the CEO, the somebody for that story. Um, but if you can build a team that's got multiple storytellers that are good, that's a huge power boost.

[00:27:44]>> By the way, there's a really big disconnect. It goes back to the authenticity point. There's a really big disconnect in how people in the kind of media sphere think about this because every reporter listening to what we're saying would be like, oh, there's only two things. There's journalism and there's propaganda. Um, and and the the mainstream press, traditional press does journalism. Um, and the and if you're doing any kind of like direct anything, it's it's propaganda and you you know, it's quote unquote it's just marketing.

[00:28:03]It's just trying to, you know, kind of sell something. Um, and like I would say that's a divi division distinction that we 100% don't agree with. Um, and you know there's there's critique aspect of it which is I don't think the press does much. Um, you know what what even they would describe as objective journalism anymore. But the the positive side of it is I think it goes right back one of the reasons you want to be authentic is because you want to actually have people understand who you are. U you want to have people actually understand what you do and you want people to actually understand the the context within which you're you're doing what you're doing.

[00:28:30]So you you want to actually explain yourself and you want to explain the world. Um, and like when we talk about storytelling, like it's it's it's very much not like storytelling like a madeup story. It's storytelling of like here's what's actually happening. Um, >> in an interesting way with tension with a beginning and an end, you know, that somebody is interested in falling the whole way.

[00:28:49]>> Yeah, that's right. And so, as a consequence, and we we really look for this is like when you know, look, when when Ben and I get like stuff on the street, like when we're just like we we routinely get told like, "Wow, I you know, I I I watched the podcast, I saw this interview, I read that post, this or that from the firm." And 100% of the time they're like, "Wow, like that was great. I really understand what that topic is about." Right? And and that and and and that's that's a very honest and legitimate and you know, positive and worthwhile reaction to very honest pos positive legitimate, you know, action action on our part. Um and and I just think again I maybe put the other the other way to put this is this isn't just something people should do. This is like I think a responsibility that for people in our world and in people in tech now to do which is like the changes that are happening I mean of all times the changes that are happening in tech right now are profound. Um, and they're really hard to understand from the outside and they're really complicated. Um, and there's huge amounts of noise in the environment. And so actually explaining honestly, right, what what's actually going on and I'll I'll just brag on our team. Um, we we we put a space SpaceX post up today.

[00:29:45]>> Um, which although it has my name on it, I had nothing to do with Reddit. Um, I um I cannot take any credit for it. Um, and it it I I I mean the feedback we're already getting is it's the best thing anybody's ever written on SpaceX. And and I think that's true. And it and it and it literally is it lays out like the actual truth. Um, and I I'm really proud of that.

[00:30:03]>> That's awesome. I want to close with some uh going deeper on some advice for for founders on on on going direct. Uh, Gabby, I'll start with you. What are some mistakes that you see CEOs making uh and things to avoid?

[00:30:16]>> I I would say there's there's two mistakes that I commonly saw working with founders and they're sort of related. The first one is it can be very easy to do this too. It's a trap to fall into because the timeline feels so addicting. But a lot of founders really overindex on distribution and tactics before actually getting the message right.

[00:30:38]Distribution is really just a multiplier on the message. And so if the message is wrong now you've amplified something that is either irrelevant for your business or not the thing that your audience needs to hear or like as we've talked about maybe worst of all it's uninteresting and now you've told everybody that you care about that you're not very interesting. So in practice, a lot of founders would come to us and say, you know, how do we go viral or how do we get on Joe Rogan? And if you actually think about it, you could get on Joe Rogan and then not say the right thing. And this is maybe the worst thing ever. And this is important because it applies not just to old media, but to new media, right? Like you could go on Bloomberg or Fox and get the message wrong. And you could also do the same thing with new media or going direct. And so the first mistake is not actually spending the time to get the message right. And that's the highest leverage, most important thing to get right. And then from there, I guess the next mistake is actually just figuring out how to do that. Um, and the way that I saw that is you can get the message wrong if you focus too much on the inputs as opposed to the outputs or the outcomes that you want to drive towards.

[00:31:44]And this is sort of paradoxical because the companies that are very successful struggle with this the most because there are a lot of interesting things that you could say about your company, right? There's like so many milestones.

[00:31:56]The mission is really compelling.

[00:31:58]There's like a lot of different things you would want to say, but depending on what you're trying to achieve, the thing that you want to say should probably be different, right? Just because everything is true doesn't mean it's all relevant or strategic for your business.

[00:32:08]And so instead of starting with the inputs of here's this huge mess of everything that we could say, let's just say it all right now and hope people remember potentially the thing that we think is most interesting, but we haven't identified that thing. Start with the outcome, right? Do we want to sell to a certain type of enterprise customer? Do we want to hire a certain type of engineer who believes a certain thing about us and our role in the market? So now you can kind of work backwards from there of like we know who these people are. We know what they believe. We know what what they probably believe or need to believe about us and we know what feels in the discourse urgent and timely and personal to them and then we can work backwards and get the message right. And so then going back to point one, you pair that with really powerful distribution and then you have a really winning strategy. And by the way, this so a really important point in what Gabby said is that really determines how you have to put the team together because if you put together a team that you can't have a conversation with where you're listening on your message and what you're saying, then that that you've kind of done yourself a disservice. You need the team to help make the story great before they go because it's real easy to go, okay, market this, you know.

[00:33:23]>> Yeah. empty box. Um there are a few marketers who could probably do that, but like it's it's hard. Uh so you you really want the team to be invested in the message and then all the variations you need to distribute that message are going to be really good and on point. Um but if the team is kind of doesn't have an opinion on message, that's very difficult.

[00:33:47]Mark, one of the things we we said in that meeting with the growth portfolio company the other week was you admire about people like you know Alex Karp or Palmer or Elon or others is the ability to also uh not just focus on what they're doing but also go outside in and talk about what's happening in the world and how do they situate their worldview their their company their product etc within that why don't you talk a little bit about that principle and how do people get good at >> yeah so the most uh kind of uh common VC story selfmarketing story is oh I met this great founder and we went on a walk and then I called me many times and like I thought he was great and I eventually convinced him to make money.

[00:34:20]>> The most common, you know, startup story is, oh, we're a brand new company, we're all fired up, we're ready to go, it's going to be great, we have new products, you know, we hope you try it.

[00:34:28]>> And I mean, those stories just make you want to stab yourself in the neck, right? I mean, like as a in the a like it's just like, oh my god, like that just the lamest story in the world. Um, and and I by the way, details, one of the keys on this is like good storytellers have great details. Details matter a lot. And so the one thing about Mark's thing that makes it like so horrible is like no details, just like blah blah blah. I'm so great. Uh, you know, I talked to a founder, he really liked me, you'll probably really like me, too. Like what? Who cares? And and it's almost, right, it's almost this thing where they they come across as like it's like fake humble, right?

[00:35:02]Because it's just like, oh, >> they they say I uh I'm humbly I'm humbled by that's the most fake humble thing in the world. I'm humbled by You're not even remotely humbled. Um and so um yeah and so it's just it's just it's just the worst. And you know there's there's a whole bunch of critiques. U it's it's sort of yeah it's fake bragging. Um it's it's boring. Um uh it's you know it's egocentric. Um it to no purpose. Um and um you know it's a passive aggressive um and then it's just it's indistinguishable. Like there's just a thousand I mean it's just it's every it's every single startup. It's every single >> everybody can gaze at their navl right.

[00:35:37]>> Everybody can do that. Like there's nobody who can't do that. So that's that's not a differentiated story.

[00:35:42]>> Yeah. And so and and so that's like the default kind of narrative that people fall into. And then and then it also like it feels I think it actually feels like doing anything bigger than that is like arrogant because it's just like who are we to like go tell some bigger thing and I don't even know what the bigger thing would be and like are the people who tell a bigger thing fold themselves and trying to make themselves look even bigger.

[00:35:58]>> And so there's just this like really reluctance to kind of expand the you know kind of expand the expand the expand the telescope out. Um, so but what I always tell people is um like the exact opposite of of all of that is true, which is like the story of you and your startup is not inherently an interesting story, but there is almost certainly an interesting story that involves your startup. And that story is, and this is sort of the cheat code of it, the story is something else in the world that's happening that is incredibly interesting um that your company relates to.

[00:36:24]>> And then yeah, by the way, the grand wizard of this is Alex Karp. If you watch his interviews, he never talks about Palunteer. The only thing he ever says about Palanteer, Mark pointed this out to me, is ontology and orchestration. Two words that nobody knows what they mean.

[00:36:41]And and like nobody knows what Palanteer does as a result, but it doesn't matter because it's like, >> you know, like the future of the US military, Palunteer, like super intelligence, Palanteer, like whatever the story is that's like really good, like Alex will go tell that story. Neurode divergence, I mean like He's he's just like whatever is interesting he'll just start talking about and then because he's the founder of Palunteer the CEO of Palanteer like that just works and I I say it like kind of the see but like it's really a good strategy. Now, he takes it to the very extreme. Um, but like that that's the right idea to find the most interesting story that you can that you can plug your company into and then tell that story.

[00:37:34]>> Yeah. Because right because what happens is then when something happens, right, when something happens in the world, something happens involving US military, AI in the military or this or that, geopolitics in China, like he's like the first phone call, right? Because he's like he's the guy who's like been out there talking about that.

[00:37:47]>> By the way, Ryan Peterson is in the audience. He's done a phenomenal job of that.

[00:37:49]>> Incredibly good at that. Exactly. Yes.

[00:37:51]Yes. Right. the difference between talking about freight versus talking about the global supply chain is completely collapsing during CO and we're all going to starve to death, right?

[00:38:00]And and then therefore he's the guy who literally goes in 60 minutes to explain to the world that in fact yes, we are we all are about to starve to death. Um from the helicopter, right? Is that is that Yes. From the from the helicopter.

[00:38:10]Yes. Look at all those ships that are never landing. Uh your your children are about to starve. Um by Flexport. Um so it works incredibly well. And then the other thing and you don't even have to say by flexport. It just happens.

[00:38:23]>> It's it's implicit. It's implicit. And then um and then the the other thing especi especially for enterprise anything involving enterprise sales which is certainly Flexport but also Palanteer is just like a big part of it is are you important enough to like meet with the CEO of your customer like are you important enough to get in the room with the decision maker? Are you are you important enough to meet with the secretary of war? Are you important enough to like be in the White House?

[00:38:41]Are you important enough to be with Fortune 500 CEOs? And you know I just I have a you know I have a little startup that's doing interesting things does not do that but I am attached to and you have seen me talk about like the big important things that are happening in the world and how they relate and that you have you know potentially an answer to it like that's absolute catnip like every every everybody wants that and so yeah so the way I describe this is just you the the trick kind of is don't don't everybody just naturally thinks inside out me and my company and my product out into the world. Don't think that way.

[00:39:09]Think in terms of like what are the most interesting things happening in the world and then what and then and then and then how do those things relate to us.

[00:39:15]>> Yeah. And and by the way, this is where um CEOs go off the rails because they're so focused on what they're doing um that all they want to do is tell their story and they're not even paying attention to what's going on in the world, which is understandable because you're trying to build something. But to do the marketing exercise, investing and understanding what's happening out there is just critically important. You can't do it without that.

[00:39:42]>> This, by the way, happens also in investor relations. So every company you know this every public company by law does these you know S1 K1 Q whatever Q they do all these things and they like fully you know spend all this time and all this effort and these these documents these filings fully explain everything the company does and they have every possible you know hedge and malpa and just like these incredible descriptions of people and then and then the annual letters and and all this stuff. Um what percentage of the investors in you know palenteer have read the >> S1 K1 right like you know 0.00001% 0001%.

[00:40:13]>> What percentage have you seen Alex, you know, on YouTube doing his thing? Yeah.

[00:40:16]100%.

[00:40:17]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the amount of time that goes into that document, >> right?

[00:40:21]>> And so, you just take that time and just understand enough about the world to put together a good story.

[00:40:28]>> On on that note, we'll end with the this idea that um the skill set is is not only something you're you're born with, you're not. It can be developed and learned and cultivated. I mean, Mark, you were saying the other day that when you look back at Alex Karp's old interviews, they're they're very different. And so, when you look at, you know, Alex or Palmer or Elon or Ryan or Amjad who came here earlier, um, you look back at their old tweets or their old interviews and they're they're nowhere close to, you know, where they were.

[00:40:53]>> Oh, yeah. It's a skill set for sure. Um, and look, there are people who are gifted and then people who are less. If you look at Donald Trump's interviews in the 80s, they're very old media interviews. He's actually restrained. Sorry.

[00:41:08]And then, you know, like he did figure out new media and he's always like super entertaining and interesting, which is kind of the the magic of his uh of his popularity. Um, so even like at that level, you can develop it.

[00:41:24]>> Yeah. Well, on that note, it's a great place to wrap. Please give a round of applause for Gabby Ben.