Moral ambition combines the ambition of entrepreneurs with the idealism of activists to create careers that address the world's most urgent and neglected problems. The core challenge is that while people have skills, time, and energy to make a difference, the path to meaningful impact is often invisible because traditional career structures don't support addressing systemic issues like food systems, tobacco use, fair taxation, and democratic resilience. The solution involves building communities, fellowships, and clear pathways that connect ambitious individuals with high-impact opportunities, enabling them to redirect their careers toward solving problems that matter most while maintaining personal fulfillment and sustainability.
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Moral Ambition Ambition Day 1Added:
Hello. Hello. Hello.
Can you hear me? Please lift your hand up if you can hear me.
>> Okay, looks good. And the volume is okay. I'm not destroying your ears.
Perfect. Okay. And the last people can also come sit down. Don't stress about it. But we are about to begin our program for today. So hello everyone and welcome to day one of moral ambition alto summit. WOO.
We we are super super excited to have you all here with us today. I am Haiti >> and I am >> and we will be your hosts for today.
So before we begin the actual program, let's start with a quick question. Take a few seconds to think the following in your own mind. No need to talk to the uh guys next to you yet. What would a truly meaningful career look like for you?
>> We're asking this because many of us feel that the world's biggest problems are urgent, but building a career to solve them does not feel like the most obvious path.
So, this summit is about changing that.
Over the next two days, we will explore how to be morally ambitious. So, how to take the ambition level of entrepreneurs and the idealism of activists and build careers that really matter.
So, the focus today will be on systemic change and tomorrow we will talk about startups as a tool for change.
Let's not destroy the ears of the people. So, some info and practicalities before we start with the actual program.
We uh Hyda here have not built the whole set here today uh and for tomorrow. But we have an amazing group of people of all the students who have been creating all of this that you will enjoy these two days. So please we want to introduce them to you. Please stand up if you have been uh organizing this day here and let's give a big applause to all the people who have been creating this.
Thank you.
>> This day would have not been possible without all of us. Uh so if you have any questions in mind or anything else you want to let us like you can let us know.
Just find us people with these t-shirts.
You will find us here and let us know if you have any questions.
And perhaps even more importantly, we want to thank sustainability action booster or how friends call SAB uh for funding this whole event. Uh they are a rare treasure we are so grateful for.
Go SAP. They also have a station there.
You can talk to them later today and maybe if you have any great ideas for sustainable projects you would like to do, let them know.
So our program for today looks like this. First we will have a talk from Lea Pulis from the school for moral ambition. Following that we will have a panel discussion with three amazing professionals whose work is all about systemic change. It should be very inspiring.
Okay. And now we can see the program.
Around four, we'll have a 30 minute food break and we will provide you some delicious round bagels. And after that, there will be a keynote speech from Anipoka from Opera Arctis, uh, an extremely cool climate activist group from Helsinki.
That will follow with a short coffee break with round donuts at around 5:15.
Our program will wrap up with cool workshop hosted by Galastile who is the former executive director of effective altruism Finland. This will give us the tools how to apply moral ambition in our day lives.
Yes. And uh as a practicality today's event uh we have a zero tolerance for any kind of harassment or bullying and we have two harassment contact persons for this event. One is Haiti here and another one is Gloria over there. Um, so please don't hesitate to talk to them at any point if you need to. And finally, we would like to thank the amazing crew of Maria01 uh who are hosting us here today. They kindly offered this space to us and uh they are amazing and we could not have done this without them. So uh a big applause for them please.
All right, now to the real deal. Start today's program with an online talk from Lee Pulis who works in the community team of the school for moral ambition.
The school was founded by Rutar Breman in 2024 after he published his book moral ambition which also inspired this event in the first place. So now let's give the stage to leave.
>> Thank you so much. Can you all hear me?
>> Yes.
>> Yes, we can.
>> Yes, we can. Thank you.
>> Before we begin, can I ask you to make me a co-host so I can share my screen for something interactive later?
>> It should be done.
>> Let's see.
If I can I cannot do it yet.
Let's see how far we come.
>> Okay, tech people are doing their magic.
>> No problem. First, I wanted to thank everyone who organized this amazing summit in Helsinki. The Helsinki community is very active and very alive.
Last year we also had a big big event hosted by one of our community members Marian T which is an amazing woman. So thank you so much for all being so active. Thank you for the team who organized this and uh for the funders which I just heard of. So we're so grateful for you because we are a movement not just an organization and you are the people who are uh the reason that we exist. So thank you so much.
Let's see if I can do something already.
>> Okay, I cannot Yes. But then I'll ask you to >> just do this by yourselves.
>> I had a something prepared. Then let's begin without the the interactive part.
As I said or as I was introduced, my name is Lea. I work at the community team for the school for moral ambition and I'm calling in right now from the H where I live and it is a bit strange to meet you through a screen of course I had very much hope to be there with you but we cannot be everywhere at the same time. Um but I'm so glad to be here even if it's online. Um, so before I tell you anything about the exact work that I do, I want to ask you something because the fact that you're sitting here on a Monday listening to a stranger talking about something called world ambition.
Um, let me start here by hearing from you.
If nothing changes in the in the way the world is going right now, what is the headline you're most afraid to read in 10 years? And I had a menty meter prepared, but now I want to write want you to write it down in your notes.
Maybe we can collect it later. Um, but I want you to think for 30 seconds. I'll give you some time.
Okay. Okay. Has everyone had the opportunity to >> hold on to that because we're coming back to it. So as I said before I work at the community team at the school for moral ambition and we are a movement not just an organization. Uh we were founded by five people uh being one of them. We now have a team of about 30 people and more than 25,000 members over 150 countries across the world. Um people from every imag imaginable background uh all asking the same question.
What do I spend my time on on? And we exist because of an observation. There are problems in the world that are enormous, urgently solvable and really neglected. And the most ambitious people in the world are mostly not working on them. Not because they don't care, but because the path is invisible. There are no camp campus recruiters for fair taxation, for example. And there are no graduate programs for um factory farming reform or no clear mark that says that here is how you move the needle. So the work exists, you exist, the tallest people exist, but the match is broken.
So we are building two things right now and we have built two things right now.
a community where people who want to do this work can find each other and a fellowship pathway that takes mid-career professionals into the province where they can actually move the needle. And right now we have fellows working on a tobacco future, a food transition, fair taxation, and the democratic resilience program is launching next year. So we're also working on that.
>> And I want to come back to the headline that you just wrote down for yourself.
Uh I wish I could see it. Um but that's fine. Um because the reason that this work exists and the reason that these five people founded an organization around something as ambitious and redirect as redirecting the world's most ambitious people um is what is happening right now is so urgent. Um we work on uh 11 topics across the board. Um we've had researchers look uh at these topics and um be very specific about what is most urgent and most neglected right now where we can really have the most impact and four of them have been actively translated into programs we're doing right now.
So the first is the food system. Roughly 80 80 billion land animals are slaughtered every year. The vast majority of them in factory farms. Uh it's a system design so most of us never have to really think about it. Um we're also working on a tobaccof free future.
People sometimes thinks this is already a solved problem. We all know that it's bad but it's not. Over eight uh million people die every year um of tobacco use.
And 80% of users now live in low and middle inome countries where the industry is expanding hardest. and their programs are designed to hit them the hardest. It's so unfair and it's um it's shaping inequality and um yeah, it's it's it's horrible. Um the fir the third one is fair taxation. So in 2023 um the European Union's VA compliance gap alone reached 1828 billion euros. Um so We say that we cannot fund education or or health care but or climate investment but the money is there. It's just somewhere else. We're not taxing the richest people in the world fairly. Um and the fourth that we're working on right now in our programs is democracy.
Nearly a quarter of the world's nations are autocrisising right now and six of the 10 newest cases are in Europe and in North America. So really close to us. um not that that makes it more horrible, but that means that it uh hits us directly and that hopefully that means that we can have impact directly there.
So the headlines you wrote at the start of this call, the ones that you are afraid of are connected to these numbers. Um they are all all these problems share is that people taking the hit are the ones with the least power to to push back.
And not only people, we're also talking about animals who have no voice here.
So let me tell you what I see now every day from the inside of this work. Um I see two sides. On one side the most pressing problems of our time and on the other side are people with skills, with time, with energy and the privilege to spend them in a meaningful way. Um people maybe like you in the room. I don't want to assume um and in between there's almost no bridge to funnel these people towards these uh impact uh uh sectors. Um and as I said before, the problems are not not getting solved because nobody cares. They're not getting solved because the path between caring act and acting is pretty invisible. So the companies whose products makes make these problems worse have spent decades building bridges They visit campuses. They they run graduate programs. They have entire teams whose only job it is to recruit you into their organization.
And the other side is underfunded and has almost none of what uh they have. So most people drift um because the only doors that are clearly marked lead somewhere else.
So that's what we are building. We are trying to build a bridge uh practically a community where you can find each other fellowship programs a circle program where you can really get guided to switch how you spend your time either volunteering or through your job. A pipeline that it did not exist in this skill around five or no less three years ago. So we're building it right now in real time. We've only existed for two years. But here's the thing. Um, not choosing is also a choice. Uh, drifting is a choice. The world is shifting under us fast. And the question is not whether you have something to offer because I genuinely believe that every one of you in that room has um but the question is whether you will aim what you have at something that matters.
And I'm not asking you to figure that out today. I'm just asking you not to drift or at least not do more harm than where you started.
So I want to be specific about what we've already built because it matters that you know that um we are not making promises that we have not yet kept. Um our community has um had a lot of NOS's come out of it.
People making career shifts uh into the impact sector. People have changed laws, uh, built policy, um, actively worked, uh, on these, uh, topics, done groundbreaking research, uh, journalism, uh, that was groundbreaking.
Um, so we're very, very proud of that.
And between every one of those numbers is a person who chose impact over comfort because they had the position to, >> but specifically you are a student and you hear me talk about jobs and uh uh getting into the impact sector and I hear you say no but it's not that easy and we know um and a few months ago we started building something new uh which is a student program which is specifically why I was asked asked to be here today because I am building that program um the community the fellowships the circle were originally built for people who were already mid-career professionals. Um, and we have not yet built proper properly uh a program for people exactly where you are right now.
So that that's a problem that we want to solve. Um, and the impact sector has never had what consulting firms have spent decades building, which is a real pipeline for students. uh a community that takes you seriously, a path that's clearly marked and uh hopefully so that you're ready to make the move. Um you do not have to figure it out alone. So this program is launching in September. So I do not yet have you that program to offer, but I am here because I really want to build it with with you. Um I know you're not all in the same position. Some of you may have student debt. Some of you have a family you want to support. Some of you maybe like me are a first generation student with no big safety net behind you. So the calculation here is not the same for every person and I'm not going to pretend it is. Um but the beautiful thing is that we are a movement. So that means there are a lot of different ways to take part.
um you can join a model ambition circle and not not uh uh uh quit your job. You can volunteer in a high impact sector and really move the needle there. Um so the point is not to be a hero overnight.
The point is to step in somewhere close to where you are right now. But the most concrete thing I can offer you right now is that literally 25 minutes ago, we launched a new platform, a community platform where all our 25,000 members are hopefully going to show up soon.
um where you can learn for free skills that you need in the impact sector, where you can connect to each other, students, professionals, build up a network, uh hopefully get high impact opportunities.
Um and uh you can uh join one of the programs that we already have or keep uh um interested until we launch the student program in September.
So that's the qu the answer that I have for you now on what can you do now? Join us. Go to moralibition.org. Join our community. It's all for free by the way.
Everything we do is for free. So it's hopefully very accessible. Um, but I have another question for you because the September answer that I have for you is a student program and that's where I really need you and I hope hope that I can share something now and otherwise I will put it in the chat. You should be the host of the meeting. I see her now.
Um, so I'm going to try once again. One second because I do have Yes. Yay. I can I can share the meter with you.
>> Okay. We already got this question, but please scan so you can um join the manter. Can you all see my screen?
Perfect fix.
>> Yes, we can.
>> Perfect. Okay. Because the student program um we are co-creating with students, with teachers, with universities all over the world. Um because we want your input. We are very curious about what you think. So, I want to take you through a couple of questions. Um and I want you to build it with me and also offer you the chance to build it with me.
>> So, First the question when you imagine yourself doing the work that matters most to you what stops you what's the friction vagueness not knowing where to start no clear path paid opportunities money not knowing yeah this is great and all your responses are going to be taken with us in creating this program so please please join we're co-creating this together capitalism money.
>> Yeah. Not knowing how to get paid to do it. Yeah.
>> I don't have the skill, or at least I think that's the thing. I'm going to touch on it in a Q&A session maybe a bit, but we actively want people from all different backgrounds and skills to be there because the usual suspects, if you all put them together in a room, you get this echo chamber. You want different skills with people who can challenge each other so you can become better. Um so I hope that takes away that insecurity a bit accessibility money.
>> Yeah I feel the same. So um we are actively trying to shape the program. So >> yeah we can solve this hopefully or at least take you through your first step.
Okay give you 30 more seconds if that's okay.
Very few available jobs. Yes.
>> Yeah. Nothing stops me. Well, why have you not started yet? Then come to our platform.
>> Yeah. No money there. Well, not at all.
But I do feel the tension.
Lack of employment. Yeah. Yeah. Lack of confidence. Well, I hope your community, our community can bring that to you.
>> Procrastination.
>> Okay. Very honest. I love this.
Fear of the unknown. Not having a proper education or degree yet. I started doing all kinds of things to build my resume during my studies.
Cool way to already have some working experience when you get into the field.
Just a tip. Okay. Next one. Second. Do you have people around you who think about this stuff seriously or does your journey feel kind of lonely?
>> Oh, I see the middle one is the same color as the background, but it's this is the number of votes.
Okay, so couple of people here feel very lonely, but most of you have some.
Cool.
Okay, 10 more seconds.
>> Okay, some but not many.
That's good to know.
I know this journey can feel pretty lonely sometimes. So we're really trying if we building this student program so that you can get support from each other so you feel that you're not alone here.
>> Okay, I'm moving to the next one. Sorry for the last people.
Then third, what would actually be useful to you from a program like ours?
What would actually move the needle for you?
I think the most important question here this this is the one that we're taking into building employment job opportunity cool connection to the public sector very good mentoring and feedback clear path I love this thank you so much to a working group my more knowledge Yeah, helping with funding, mentorship for startups. Cool, internships, networking to companies.
Some things are already available on our platform. Even if you are a student, especially the networking part. So, I would say before September, please take a look at least get a network. That's the Yeah.
Job opportunities, school, clear direction, money, connection, feedback.
Yeah, I love this.
Okay, then I'm going to um sorry, peer support.
Most important thing to start impact community. Cool. Sorry, last 10 seconds because I'm already over time and I do want to answer answer some questions.
Um let's be very clear now.
last 10 for idea development. We're already doing that on the platform, too. If you want feedback, we have a request page.
So, that's very cool. Um, paid internships. Very cool. Okay, I love this. Thank you so much. Then I'm going go back because this slide was supposed to be at the end. Please drop your email address if you're okay with it being on the screen. By the way, if you want to co-create the program by being in the first pilot pilot group this summer, of course, you don't have to, but if you want to, I'll email you. You get early access. You can review. You can say what you like, what you dislike, what you're missing there. And uh we are actively trying to create it with you. So, I really really want to do this together.
>> Thank you.
This is amazing.
So many of you. Thank you so much. This is perfect.
Thank you guys. Okay, one more minute.
Drop it if you want to be a part.
of cocreating and you already did by giving me your answers, of course.
Wow, half of you. This is great.
10 more seconds for the last people.
Okay, I'm going to stop sharing my screen.
I hope I am not sharing my screen anymore. You can see me again.
Um, and I will close with something that is a quote that hangs very big in our office where I'm not at right now because of trains. Um, but it might be cliche. It's very true though. Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world.
Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has by Margaret me. And that small group right now is you in that room. It's the 25,000 members that we already have that hopefully you will connect with. Um, and you know where you can find us. The new platform is live today. Um, and I will be reading every answer that you've given me. So, thank you for having me and I'm very excited for your questions.
>> Thank you, Le. Oh my god, that was so inspiring. Wow. Um, I would love to give you guys in the audience uh the chance to ask your questions right now. So, um, if you already have something in mind, just shoot your hand up and Haiti will bring you the mic.
Yeah, over there.
Thank you.
Hey, hey, thank you so much for the speech.
It was really nice. Um and it was yeah really nice to listen to and to hear that uh more people have uh the same vision of trying to change uh what's wrong with the world. Um I was just thinking um or wondering I guess and I don't know if you have the answer but um you know we all have we can have the same goals but we may have different ideas of how to get there. Uh so I'm wondering if you can tell us a bit more uh how that happens in that uh community.
>> That's a very good question. Um it happens in a lot of different ways. So I mentioned four uh topics that we are actively working on in our programs right now. um but we have a reading list of around 12 topics that at the start of the school for moral ambition. So at the founding researchers have um flagged those issues as SSS problems. So that's the framework we work with. So um uh sorely overlooked uh neglected uh um let's see and sizable so uh and solvable sorry um so those 12 topics um the researchers have told us are the most urgent issues of our time and the most neglected. So we know that we can make a lot of impact there.
But um those researchers also made some suggestions on first steps and I I mean academics from all over the field. It's quite a a nice group um on how to start on solving those issues. So in the fellowships itself for the mid-career professionals um we already laid out the first path for them like hey we think this issue should be solved in this way based on research um but let's see what you find out along the way. We've had uh fellowships for two years now. So they see new opportunities, new ways and we implement them. we update the reading list and we um actively communicate our learnings to the community as well. But of course outside of those four topics people are also working on other things. Um and there how you get towards the most impactful approach is um based partly on frameworks that we give you that we believe um sets you up for the most success and based partly on discussions you have with fellow community members that you're doing this with uh your own research your own experience. Uh so we have a lot of interesting discussions also on the platform on certain topics like hey I'm thinking about doing this but uh I don't know if I should approach it this way or that way. So it's kind of co-creating um how we go about this. Uh so it's very interesting and we keep learning from each other uh in this way.
Um also we get experts in the room uh to give learning sessions for free. As I said before, everything's for free with us. Um, who give us uh, yeah, advice on how to tackle this, what the first steps are, and we're very data driven, so everything is measured. Uh, also, if something's not working, we change our approach. I hope that answers your question.
>> Uh, yeah, it does. Thank you so much.
Uh, I do have even more questions now, and I'm interested to see how that actually happens. But yeah, thank you.
We also just a tip for all of you now that the new platform is launched we have an onboarding session where you can go through self-paced where you get all the info our frameworks where we started the sources we use so there's a lot of things to find out this was just a short introduction >> great um over there in the back we have the next question >> thank you Uh how do you concretely affect the world around you through for example private and public sector? What do you like concretely do other than spread information?
>> Yeah, I love that. Very good question because we at the school often say awareness is overrated. It's very cool that people know that we have an issue but action is where it's at. So um we have three pillars in our strategy that all our programs work towards. first prestige. So it is like the attention.
So making it really cool to do this instead of getting a very high paid usual suspect job where you're either harming the world or not doing anything.
Um but really getting to brag with doing this work instead. Um but also uh yeah just getting attention to these problems in the first place. So you need that as a basis as a basis. Then funding. Um the impact factor is severely underfunded. A lot of you already said that in the menty meter. It's true. Um we have really had a spin-off with philosopher Peter Singer as well.
um he has co-founded profits for good with one of our co-ounders where they try to get as many people um donating um their profits uh to effective uh charities. So especially the also things that we're working on and that we see are very very underfunded and we need people there. Um so that's the second part. um also people are organizing a lot of things themselves there but I won't get too deep into that and the third is pathways so as you also said in the menty meter it's not clear where I should start um what are we doing here where do I begin um for the pathways uh we have our two programs so either the fellowship for myth career professionals where they quit their job they get paid by us to focus on a specific topic where their skills can move the needle the or a circle program where you go uh through this program with uh eight peers um which you get yeah step by step uh see okay where can my talent make the most change um but we have an opportunities board with high impact opportunities we have learning sessions where people give advice um on hey how to start uh where to go etc and soon with the student program. I can already hopefully give you a bit of a spoiler there. Um the pathways there will also be that you get free training and free uh yeah of course that's logical that that's for free but a a junior uh board for impact opportunities also internships, training ships etc. >> Does that help you or do you what you said also set public sector? What do these fellowships do?
um they lobby for good kind of um so we get them in host organizations um that work on these issues already.
So, one of the very um uh yeah, I think one of the best examples is that last year one of our tobacco fellows, he went to a party congress of one of the biggest parties in in the Netherlands and he made sure that banning um cigarettes uh from a certain age was in the party program um or at least getting the age up for consumption. it got in and that became the biggest party in the Netherlands at the elections and it's now in the coalition program which means it's going to be a new law. So in that way we are trying to move the needle either in the public sector in the private sector with the companies that hopefully will donate their profit which is also a tension there because we don't like the capitalistic system but we do need the money to change it. So that's always a tension. Um but I hope that kind of answers we I have a lot more examples but then I'll be here for another 30 minutes. So >> great. Thank you so much Le. Um I believe we will move on with the program now. Um but thank you again so much for coming and uh we look forward to connecting with you more later. And now we will take a very short five minute break. Uh you can grab So feel free to grab some coffee or water or a snack. Um but please be back here at 14:50 and we'll continue. Thank you.
Everyone will be here as well.
>> Thank you.
>> Hello. It was nice to have you here.
Hello. Hello. Hello again. Please could you all start coming back to your seats?
We will start with the panel discussion very shortly. Thank you.
Okay.
>> All right. We will start with the panel now. Please get back to your seats.
Great. So, um let me start by introducing our amazing panelists. Uh we have three of them. So, first uh Alexen.
Uh he is a social entrepreneur and a futures thinker best known as the co-founder of the think tank Demos Heleni.
uh he is dedicated to analyzing how societies and organizations evolve or resist change and is recognized as an expert in this field. Alexi holds a PhD in urban community and regional planning.
Next we have Dr. Idel Gasilioso uh is a tenure associate professor of sustainable design at the department of design at Aldo University. She is a sustainability scientist, a design researcher and the leader of NODUS sustainable design research group, a group of diverse researchers conducting transdisciplinary design research for sustainable futures.
She is also the program director of Aldo's interdisciplinary masters program creative sustainability.
And finally we have Johan Nenon who is the chief specialist and secretary general of the expert panel for sustainable development of the Finnish government panel whose job is to bring sustainability science and research to the agenda of policy makers and raise societal discussion around it. Johanna is an expert in EU climate and environmental policy and strategic foresight and she's also a doctor of social sciences.
And last but not least, the panel will be moderated by Anna Hakola who is one of the initiators of this project and an economics master student at Aldo. She holds a long track record in event organizing and volunteering. Perhaps the most notably, she was organizing a panel discussion on green growth versus degrowth on Aldo campus last year and the event drew over 200 participants.
But now, let's invite the panelists to stage with a big applause.
Thank you.
Great.
Hi everyone.
>> Hi.
Very very very happy to see so many um amazing faces here. I'm so happy that this day has finally come. We started organizing this first in January. So it's been a long and um very um fulfilling process also. Um yes, I'm my name is Anna. Very happy to be hosting the panel and um very happy to be here with so inspiring people.
The topic for today is not very simple.
It's very abstract and um a question that can feel daunting. So let me start out with a very simplified dis um kind of definition of what are we actually talking about when we talk about systemic change. Um according to Citra systemic change refers to the simultaneous reform of operational models structures and their interactions which are used to create the prerequisites for future welfare and sustainable development. So in as far as I've understood systems thinking looks at the world not just as a collection of things but as a collection of relations and networks between those things. Now Idil did I get that right?
>> I don't think um yes and no. uh I don't think that there is or there can be one definition of systemic change uh or one definition can encompass uh all of the different facets of systemic change. So yes, but if I may add, I think in the context of the challenges that we are facing today, we are also talking about quite radical changes in sociotechnical ecological systems that provide us uh livelihood, sustenance, air, water and everything else. So that's my addition. Yes, >> sounds good. I okay I want to spend now a section on learning about you guys and what you have done and how have you ended up doing what you do what you are doing now I'm going to start with you Alexi you have founded demos a think tank um that works on the most pressing issues of our time it is still quite unique in Finland and I dare to say that it's um one of the most desired um workplaces is among at least in the sustainability community in Aldo. Um I am very curious to hear how did you end up founding something on your own and what was it like to begin that path?
Um well first of all thank you for those kind kind words of course cannot be anything better than create a place where people want to work and and kind of a um well a simple answer there was a in the in the ad of this event there was the question are you are you climbing the right ladder or wrong ladder perhaps I wasn't very good in in in kind of a searching for ladders which was probably the starting point that I spent quite long time. So just searching, studying, doing freelancing, short gigs, uh which I think has to do with some type of a system thinking itself. So I would in a was in a kind of a analysis paralyzis perhaps in a sense that I couldn't find um impactful enough carrier path for my myself didn't want to kind of a devote for for competing for a job somewhere else um hence I carried on educating myself uh trying to think what systems change could happen. Um, and then I spent a lot of time with other people who were concerned on on similar issues regarding environment. Um, and kept on discussing with them, organizing events like this.
Uh, which I think was itself kind of a second academic education that I received beyond the kind of formal one that I eventually completed. uh and I think that type of a civic action with other students or people who had recently entered the workforce um was a kind of a think tank like environment already. uh so I couldn't think of going to to two kind of a places which didn't uh provide this type of a um or didn't nurture this way my curious and then it was quite random random event that led into founding demos of course a crucial thing there was that I did it together with good good friend of mine who had more or less followed the same path Um and then having the kind of a shared commitment towards doing something which was unforeseen which no one had done before in this country um sounded simply exciting a kind of a opportunity that I couldn't or we couldn't pass having the opportunity of doing something new which at the same time could lead into something extremely impactful possibly also So the idea that the it was kind of an open game in the sense that it wasn't kind of a a field where you would know what success looks like but it opened opportunities for to various directions. Of course I mean you asked little the great question of the systemic change. One of the um characteristics is that you don't know how the system will will react when you do something. What are the outcomes?
what are the consequences? Hence, you cannot either do know what are uh characteristics of success and I think that type of thinking was quite intriguing and also founding something new that that didn't have a place in in society yet. We didn't know what things think tanks do, what that type of organizations what they should produce, what type of place they should play or role they should play in society. Hence it was rather kind of a cartel blanch type of starting point uh and we could create a kind of a vehicle for for uh for then bringing about change and testing number and number of things and I think that's what has happened over the 20 years oh gosh we've tried so many things many of them have failed attempt has always been to kind of a change the society um it's constant living in a doubt whether anything of of this will last or or produce anything anything good or significant but I I think that's part of part of kind of a uh living with certain type of moral ambition and thinking of systemic change.
Would you still like to know some more intimate >> I have so much >> details on on what actually happened?
>> I actually I would love to but I let's come back to that later. Um I want to ask Johanna now uh because you work with the government um as part of Gestavus Panelli so the um sustainability panel of the Finnish government um and you have also worked in EU coordination at the prime minister's office previously um so now you are positioned as a civil servant but without a political steering um your role is to bring sustainability into decision making and societal discussion I'm curious why have you chosen to work with policy and um has it kind of like why why do you believe that it's your way to make change?
>> Yeah, I have Okay, maybe we need to close some now. Yes. Sparing your ears. Okay. Um I have to go back to to maybe to my youth because I come from a family where my especially my mother was active in politics. So municipal and regional level so uh politics was always uh talked in my family. So it was not strange for me and that curiosity uh my mother was actually running for parliament when I was 15 and I was following her during the campaign period and that's where I get the uh inspiration to study political science which I later did but something came up in between my 15 and before becoming a student. So I be became really curious about or knowledge about the climate change and and environmental issues and I really wanted to study environmental policy but I didn't get in. So I think my career is also an example of getting somewhere without actually getting to the first place you wanted to to get into. So I studied political science but I did my master thesis on on the uh worldwatch institute state of the uh state of the world reports and their uh sustainability um uh concept. So uh that's where my kind of that's where the big uh issues come from and that's where my interest to politics come from and that's how I've been ending up being a social scientist and and also work for the government because that's a quite that's I think a quite usual uh path in a way to come to work for the government but then uh the kind of work that I'm doing uh as a part of of being a civil servant is now very different because I work for a science panel. So the panel is independent. Even though it's in the opices of the prime minister's office, it can still do what it wants. And that means that there is no political steering what the sustainability panel does. And that has given a lot of um freedom to work with big issues the systemic change and it's really the the the work for the panel to bring uh to promote the systemic change and bring the issues of sustainable development into the policym and into the public discussion not only to the policy makers but to the to the public discussion and I think it's one of the um one of the paths that we currently have that should um should have the influence and should have uh change coming and uh uh yeah maybe maybe stop from there.
Maybe just say that also when working with the EU coordination in my earlier uh earlier situation I could use all the knowledge that I learned from my doctoral stu studies of the climate policy in Finland. So I think that studying and following the passions you have uh you can always use them somewhere that you didn't think earlier.
I think this is important to understand also when you study that you never know what knowledge you will need later where you can use it. So kind of follow the passion and follow the interesting issues that you find out and don't uh just think that how this looks in my CV or is this relevant or not. everything can be relevant later and you don't know it. So really much like Alexi said that you don't know where you end up or h what comes out of what you do. I have a similar thinking. Yeah, >> thank you. That's good to know. Um okay, this is on. Good. Um great. Um well finally I you are um global pioneer in the design for sustainability transitions. Um you've moved through four countries to create an academic career in something that you first couldn't find a supervisor for even in your own country. Um so you choose you chose academ academic career as the form of making systemic change. Um, what was that journey like for you?
>> Well, pretty long and transformative.
So, there's a legend in Alto that uh I decided to become a professor at age six. It's not a legend. It is true. Uh, I just didn't know until I was uh in my master's first year, you know, what I wanted to continue uh to build an academic career around. Um and uh and it was totally a coincidence of finding a book in the library and everything at that moment changing uh because I saw an opportunity of uh of aligning my kind of life purpose which was always about social justice and uh environmental protection.
Um I grew up in uh in Turkish branch of United Nations library.
Uh and this is before internet. So there were actual books. So I got to know about climate >> I I got to know about climate change at age I think five or six um a good at least 20 years before any of my peers you know started to learn about it.
So in that moment I found a book in the library and all of a sudden it just uh kind of uh clicked to me that I could because I was um I finished engineering uh with a lot of dissatisfaction about how kind of nonsatisfying the engineering knowledge for me because yes I I learned about numbers and mathematical models and uh also certain ways of creating impact in the build technical ways but you know a lot was missing and I think I was born a systems thinker so I was constantly searching for this kind of connecting and building the missing part so from engineering I moved to industrial design masters that's where I came across this green design book and then everything clicked and then I got dissatisfied with design education because uh there wasn't enough sustainability in it no one could teach me what sustainability was actually about. So then I went and did my PhD in New Zealand um in sustainability science.
And sustainability science is a science of complex adaptive systems. And once I kind of was put into that, everything made sense because all of a sudden I had the vocabulary, I had the theories.
Um, so it was long and of course and then from New Zealand I moved to Australia and then to here but it was very transformative and I would like to echo what Janna was saying that uh what you learn uh may not necessarily seem relevant to you or you may not like it but you actually you know you become a unique person by these exposures of different knowledge systems, different people, different countries, different ideas.
Um, and for me, as much as I really disliked my engineering education, I am so grateful that I actually have that formation. For example, um, moving countries was in a way necessary for me because yes, in Turkey, I really didn't find the job that I wanted. Also, the supervision for my PhD at the time, this is year 2003, so a good 23 years ago. uh moving to New Zealand was very coincidential. It was you know a sustainability science early sustainability science kind of program in a very niche uh uh kind of in a very niche way established in an engineering faculty.
That was a bit of a struggle because again as sustainability science program you talk about systems and systemic change and big picture and engineers there are doing their little kind of um climate modeling and I had the struggle of always in Turkey talking about sustainability people going like what ability in the engineering department where you know sustainability science PhD was being done I was talking about systemic change and people were like huh you mean systematic. No, I mean systemic. So, um yeah, it it was challenging uh transformative also. Of course, a lot of fun. Um yeah, >> that's very important to keep the fun in there too. Um okay. Wow. Very interesting. And I have so many questions. Um, but I would like to touch on the fact that kind of what Lea was also saying in her speech about how there are these very real tensions that we have to kind of juggle at the same time as um dreaming of a carrier in systems change.
So, how did you navigate the tensions related to building a path from scratch, finding work like any kind of work and kind of continuing to make change? Um, this is maybe a big question, but I would appreciate your thoughts once you can start.
>> I can I can quickly continue uh from where I ended. So first of all jobs for for me were very big anxiety when I was finishing my masters doing very obscure stuff at the time you know sustainability uh design etc and um I was very very anxious about jobs and uh I wasn't able to find you know the kind of job that I really wanted but um in order to achieve what I really wanted to achieve at that time it was a PhD outside of Turkey. Um, I did weird jobs. Uh, and then when I was doing my PhD, I also, you know, painted walls, weighted tables, and I've come from a kind of privileged background in my country. I was sent to a private school, went to the best university in the, you know, country, never cleaned a house until I was 27.
But um but it was all all for like there was this thing I really wanted and so I was going to do whatever it took. Um looking back I'm thinking wow how courageous I was but I was actually quite also in a way you know blindly jumping a water that I didn't really know and I didn't really care how deep it was. Um but essentially and still you know still I don't really know uh the future. It's not like um we are all settled and everything is settled for us and you know no job is secure. No life is secure. uh and uh and and every day I make a choice uh to you know to do what I'm doing and thinking again back now being here in Finland directing an inter school interdisciplinary masters program that brings technical business and creative disciplines is almost like my wildest dream that I never even could have dreamed you know becoming true.
So I think it was it was really kind of you know pushing and pushing and pushing uh and every day dealing with whatever came uh to the table.
>> Thank you.
>> I would say that it was partially what Bill just said that tolerating some type of a insecurity regarding your own position. I mean in terms of perhaps fulfilling certain kind of a material dreams that most people tend to have and and and not necessarily kind of a opting for them first.
But even more so regarding whether you've been kind of uh achieving something from the perspective of the surrounding world and culture from the point of view of your your parents or your peers and you don't know whether this path is taking you somewhere or anywhere as it doesn't have a kind of a a clear starting point or a kind of a a field where you are kind of a moving forward like in a kind of a more traditional career and and of course that's Then you must build certain type of a confidence inside yourself of of of thinking that uh that yeah I mean I can do this for for time being go forward there will be surprises uh there might be new directions but I still have something inside me and especially I might have some people around me who help me I mean guide me somewhere with the fact of of that they are there I share certain things with them intellectually and emotionally. Um, and that's that's something that kind of a maintains the confidence and perhaps also the moral ambition. Um, at the same time thinking it again, I could have ended or I hope many of you do this that you end up in a rather conventional jobs and you think that I've been trained for things that don't have yet demand perfectly. There's no perfect match in the in in organizations, public sector companies and so on. But I've been trained based on best available science. I'll be pushing through certain new ideas that will change those organizations. Uh it doesn't mean that I'm there for a kind of a conspiracy of kind of a taking over the organization but just gradually introducing new discussions, introducing new facts, introducing new connections, uh new agenda.
uh it's not something that for instance companies when they demand for certain type of degrees to be to be taught at university they don't know what they would be asking for but eventually the kind of a transformative change happens when these things enter the the workforce in force of of people who know something that the previous generation or the cohort didn't know who have different type of ambition who have different type of commitments and that start changing the world and and even in on that type of trajectory or path you might end up doing an organization for two or three years and then understand that well probably this is not the right organization probably I have to study a bit more or change uh change to another organization but we could perhaps have more capacity of reflecting in a way that allows us to take a new direction quite early on even but still kind of a keep on kind of a doing something that we feel uh feel is important for us. Um but that kind of a still requires the kind of a having the flexibility of standing that insecurity that I can change I can jump off from the current rather secure position even and and follow my instincts on what what is really important in my life.
So many uh things came to my mind from both of the what Inul and and Alexi were saying. But uh maybe I continue what Alexis said about um uh becoming like with the new ideas because that is something in my current job that I really love is that uh science panel is there for bringing the ideas that are not yet uh taken into account or not yet understood that this is what we need. So how the science panel works is that it predicts the future and and brings ideas that are maybe not a normal or or even acceptable right now but in 10 years time they are the new normal and and being u courageous enough to say them aloud and say this is the path we should take and this is where we should go. We need those people in the world and we need them more than we have right now.
So this is one one thought uh that I I really think is is important but but looking back like struggling uh during my own path I think that after uh I had my masters in political science there was a direct path of a generalist so you can there are many places you can work as a political scientist and and and with the government or with the policy makers or or in in different institutions. solutions and I really struggled to take that generalist path.
I I already had few short short jobs in that path and I was thinking I really want to specialize in something. I want to understand something more thoroughly and that's why I started my my doctoral studies and uh that that was a that was a financial decision to make and I was really really lucky. So I think that luck has a lot to do with it. I know that I was privileged and I was lucky because I had a partner who said that okay uh I can support you and you can do do the do your PhD and and that made it possible and of course I get I got grants but I I didn't get the kind of salary that I would have gotten if I just continued with the with the path with uh straight through through from from my master. uh but but at that time I really didn't think it as a giving up up something but I really thought that this is something I do for myself and I've been really uh lucky afterwards also but but also really happy that I did go through that struggle to to do the PhD because that really took then 10 years of my time after that and luckily I didn't know it but but we had a family and and uh then I went to to have a job because I didn't have any crowns anymore and stuff happened. But but that's I think it's life and and understanding kind of that there isn't a readymade path for any of us but you make your path yourself and there the most important thing is somehow to find the passion you have. What is the one thing that you really want to follow and want to uh um um progress in your life? What what is that theme? And then you can find many places where you can work with that. That's that have has actually been my my thinking all the time that uh for me for very long time it was especially climate change that this is the theme I want to work with and I work anywhere where I can just uh get forward with it and get get it to the right path but nowadays it's I've kind of made a circle and gone back to the the sustainability and I I think that it's even more interesting to work with the systemic change and and the broader sustainab ability uh field there is so much to do but um but I think that following following your passion and finding the way is the one thing and then the other thing that came to my mind when listening to you was that um uh there that like Alexi said that hopefully many of you go to work with their normal places because institutions have to be changed within from inside that's that's also the one reason that I I work for the government because I think that you have to change it from inside as well.
It doesn't uh I don't believe in revolutions in a kind of they don't happen very often and they they are not very nice way of changing things. I hope that there would be peaceful uh sustainability transformation in in this society and that's uh for what I'm working for. So, so that's why I think we need to work with the institutions we have, but we have to have the new ideas to change them from within.
Thank you. So, what I'm hearing is kind of having it clearly in your mind what your passion is about and kind of the kind of the issues or the topics that you want to work with and holding on to that um and kind of having some sort of confidence also that I can pull this off. I can make a career out of it for myself while also kind of um being okay with uncertainty perhaps. I mean I wouldn't say that I had a very clear vision at any any moment. I had certain I mean felt strongly about the challenges of our time that at some point at the age of 16 or 70 that I have to do something which benefits the coming generations. But then what it clearly I mean what would be the clear goal? How could I advance that goal remained a very complex issue and I kind of kept quite many paths open because of that because of the systemic nature of of that dilemma the fact that I have to constantly learn more. So had I known the solution, I probably had kind of a applied for a job where in a place that could have provided the kind of a best possible tools for for for achieving that. So it's probably well at the same time rather difficult question. What is that confidence that that you have? What is the kind of a really core of that perhaps some type of a quite scientific mindset that it's kind of a self-corrective system where you constantly have to learn more and you have to care about rather wide array of of of things and facts. Uh and yet you cannot kind of uh close your eyes from from number number of kind of a sufferings in the in the world and and living in that type of constant doubt.
Uh perhaps that's the might be the unifying factor here especially when talking about systemic change and not only about solving that problem over there.
interesting thoughts. Uh because for example, I don't think I actually had the confidence that I can pull a career out of this um at all. It was it was just uncertainty and anxiety bearance because I knew that I wanted something h and I was walking towards it in kind of infinitisimal tiny little steps never had the confidence that I will pull a career out of it. Uh also uh you talked about vision. While I had very strong visions on I am going to go to Europe and do a PhD on this topic with this professor. None of that none of that actually happened. Um the broad vision happened. Yes, I did a PhD. You know I built an academic career. Um and the vision I think is not a blueprint and it shouldn't be. I think visions are anchors. This is what I always tell in kind of my futures uh classes. Visions are anchors. They're not blueprints.
They are uh to pull us uh but not not necessarily uh rigidly um rigidly make us get attached to a particular idea about the future. So, I also wanted to make uh make that um and I was generally walking not with like, oh, I have the confidence I'm going to pull this off, but it was more like, hm, I wonder if I could do this. I wonder if I could move to New Zealand. And by the way, when I moved to New Zealand, there was not a PhD position for me there. I really went there with 20 kilograms of luggage and as a tourist. Um and then you know that's trial is also is I think important but most importantly uh passion I think passion gives the energy it's it has its own you know it has its own kind of um feel uh and once it is switched on I think uh that that's really fundamental um because it becomes then the engine you can go into culdeox but then you can pull out and find still the energy energy to find another path and try another street. So yeah, >> thank you. So I I maybe it's not confidence then maybe it's more like believing in in your passion and kind of not giving up on it.
Um, okay.
Let me kind of pull pull um pull us to kind of this moment because um the world has definitely always had these systemic issues. Um but I dare to say that right now it's looking pretty complicated and um the window for action regarding climate change for example is getting smaller and smaller.
Um so the world has changed from since you were at the beginning of your careers.
What does it mean now um to do meaningful work in today's world? Um do you have any thoughts?
Well, perhaps just from my perspective, having already lived several decades with this kind of a rather narrow margin of how much time we have, this narrow window, which is of course closing all the time, but still we shouldn't push ourselves only to certain urgency with with kind of a well uh gives or allows us to think that this all has to be done in five years or seven years or 10 years and then we can do something else or either I mean it will continue throughout our lifetimes. I mean there will be number of things to be solved over the over the next 30 40 years we might manage to escape certain horrors. There will be new ones but I think we I mean talking about systemic change it will take decades. it will have consequences that we don't know about. So we we shouldn't kind of uh push ourselves to the urgency mo mode of urgency which then also u avoids us from planning certain things might which might require more time than that that five years. Of course, it's good to have urgency and that can motivate and push you forward. But at the same time, we should have also confidence that we have to do big things over a longer period of time. Uh perhaps that's something that I've learned over the past couple of years only. Uh after after seeing I mean well different deadlines for instance regarding climate change uh closing over the over the past 20 years.
Uh and yeah, well, some things have gone towards better in technology. At the same time, there's been a great acceleration towards more and more materials and more and more energy to be consumed.
Uh which makes the picture rather mixed I would I would say which means that we have to analyze it a new uh what needs to be done. Um I mean I never could have thought that the revolution in energy sector had happened over the past 25 years without any major political decisions. Of course there's been some political decision with within European Union but that there's no global deal on price on price on carbon for instance and that still has happened. So that has surprised me.
Uh there are plenty of other changes over the period of time. I can return to that later. But >> yeah, I had had an idea continuing from there. Yes, it was about um this conflict that we are con constantly with ourselves like seeing that something should happen really fast and then at the same time knowing that things don't really change that fast in a society societal uh uh level. So, so thinking about the science panel's work and like I was saying earlier that we think that the things that we now say will happen in 10 years of time and at the same time we know that we are in a hurry and they should have already been done like 10 or 15 years ago at least. So this is the struggle I think working with the current but but I also agree with Alexi that uh that now um we should also give up the um uh the idea of the urgency that we have to get this all done in five years and then we can do something else because I I agree that it's not going to happen and that we will always have some troubles in our life that we have to solve. So uh kind of kind of what I'm seeing in in this day is that uh people are starting to wake up and I believe that uh there is um uh a bottom up change that can happen when enough people wake up and see that okay this is not the kind of world I want to live in.
I want to have something else. I want to have vision from a more positive future and I want to go forward that. And I really loved little what you said about the visions being anchors and not blueprints because this is this really gives me uh new ideas on on how to how to think about the positive visions. for example, what what our panel has has done last year together with Alexi uh Demos uh uh about the what kind of um positive visions there should be but but not dealing with them like this is the future we are going to get but as an anchor that okay this is where I want to go. This is something very interesting and very uh like um desirable future and I think that these desirable futures and visions for them are the ones that we would right now need in the society so that we would be we would have the direction towards what to go and I believe that also the systemic change happens through enough people saying that this is not what I want to follow anymore. I want to go there.
>> To add on that, of course, uh this is not to deny that there are, you know, certain windows might be closing. Uh for example, you know, keeping temperature increases within this century by 1.5 degrees Celsius might have been politically already impossible. Two degrees might becoming politically impossible.
uh and we are project you know the projections are showing 3 point something degrees warming but uh I think it's as as Alexia was saying it's not really a black and white situation it's we either achieve this or we're doomed and we don't have to do anymore any work none whatsoever um this is quite black and white thinking and I really would like and this also I mean this is recognizable visible among younger people and I recognize this also you know in my younger self. Um but I hope that we can see the whole spectrum in between black and white and I want to make a point that the spectrum between black and white is not gray. It is actually all of the colors uh fit in you know between black and white. So there is that whole spectrum. Uh what does this mean? Well um in fact yes certain uh windows might be closing but that doesn't mean that meaningful work ends it just changes form you know the questions change uh what is meaningful work now what the world needs from us now and we need to be thinking though you know those answers rather than u being kind of oh the opportunity is gone now we can just um forget about any kind of positive future know uh and for every scenario there are positive futures acknowledging that positive futures you know uh differ from uh one group of people to another and one person to another but still um so I think you know we need to ask okay maybe this is now impossible we wanted this we're not going to get this how does the work what what does you know how does the work should change now according to what we know about what is likely to happen. Also keeping in mind that there are things that we don't know and there are things that we don't know that we don't know. So we don't know what kind of scientific and technological changes will happen in the 5 10 20 50 100 years and what kind of opportunities uh they will open for us.
Also of course any kind of technological development come with new technological risk not to deny that but we also need to remember that okay what we know is also limited. So let's not really be black and white but let's ask the question of okay on the basis of what we know now um what is the meaningful work what how does it look like and what is my role in that I think could be a more constructive way of looking at these closing and opening windows >> so prepare for a long march however I would like to pick one other item or a topic that probably has changed over the well our respective car careers which is that it's a question of how much mental space we have to develop the kind of a systemic map of what is happening and what is possible just kind of thinking of the imagining idl in that library some point 30 years ago um without internet pre- internet time without social media uh idle finding a book or a report and reading that having to make the interpretations herself without much of help from anyone who would provide readym made solutions. But then having several days between you find the next next item which would help you forward.
Compared with the for instance the life in which current teenagers current teenagers live in where I mean you constantly bombarded by a number of different types of of messages. If you start searching something you immediately find the next interesting source follow that you find interpretations. You find people who who tell what is the right opinion and that there's you find the kind of a relevant solutions or movements for for for that and you don't have that many moments of kind of reflecting that and then going to whatever organization where which are much much better organized than they were probably 30 years ago or 20 years ago. They have clear targets. they have constant information and data sharing which kind of uh are being targeted towards the wider goals of that organization whereas probably time when we studied our respective carriers there was much much more slack and I don't mean that kind of a messaging platform now but slack as a phenomenon there were moments when internet didn't function or you didn't get proper instructions on what you should do there were perhaps already those books and international magazines and even Google searches. So you could kind of really find new topics and items yourself.
Whereas now I think we are quite much uh or our attention is being directed to certain topics quite extensively by organizations that have the similar systems through which they uh they they kind of uh aim for greater efficiency by the kind of a well the commercial world which intends to capture our attention to to various topics which is away from us kind of a just just kind of a being being semi lost or just wondering what to do next or or or what this all meant that I heard yesterday in in an interesting conversation or it also takes away a bit of the importance of the physical meetings of people which probably were more important in the past because they were the only places where you could gain certain information. they may much much more influential compared to compared to the situation where of course you get all of the kind of fireworks that all the possible influencers can do with their kind of video effects and and so on. And I I I think on that regard we had more interesting niches where people were in that slack developing something interesting and new that had the potential of of becoming a part of a transformative change where now we think that we should immediately find the right path, right solution based on the kind of a at least more readymade uh solution that someone is already offering to us and that might be a difference. So it might be just a nostalgic idea that things were better in the past when I grew up. But at the same time it can be also at least it is interesting question that has happened over the past 40 30 years.
There is definitely a lot more kind of information available and like in that way kind of like like you said the paralysis of like options out there. um and kind of having to react to many things at um every day all the time. Um Johanna, what would you say or because um kind of is there do you see if this is something that ties into why the government for example isn't solving climate change? Is it that public servants are so busy that they don't have time to like kind of work on these issues or kind of is it is it part of the problem?
>> Yeah, I thought about this a little bit before I came and I I had three points plus.
So, uh why why the government isn't solving uh the climate change? Well, first of all, I think uh and these are not in an order, but but our current government system doesn't really work with the uh most important issues. So, for example, the ministry uh structure is very much old-fashioned. It was built already during our time uh under Sweden.
So, it's 200 years old how the ministries are divided. So we should have kind of we should have like um uh food system ministry and energy system ministry and uh and uh regional system ministry and then we should have like planetary ministry and and uh these kind of like different kind of structuring so that the ministries could concentrate on the real issues. Uh the second thing is the metrics are not right. So we are continuously following the GDP metrics. That's the only metrics we follow all the time. So we should have other measures. We should measure the the sustainability as a as a whole in a different with different metrics and then we should make the decisions based on that. So that's that's the second thing. And third thing which I think it's it's the most important is the leadership. So we are currently very much uh kind of holding on to the leadership kind of leadership that we you we got used to when the times were normal and we're still kind of waiting that the times are getting back to normal after after COVID and after the war and after the energy crisis and now but we are seeing continuously a new crisis and that's the how it's going to be. It's not going to go back to the normal. So the leadership should also change and we should stop reacting to the acute crisis and we should start thinking that okay the system has already changed. What is really driving this crisis and we can see that the they are the environmental crisis. They are the the the um the social uh crisis, the in inequity uh rising throughout the world and and different kinds of uh sustainability issues that are really driving this crisis and uh and unless the leadership understands that that we change the way we we we govern the government uh we cannot solve this. So I I would say but when getting to the the to the uh level of public servants I think the biggest reason two reasons actually uh what I've seen in my previous roles is that you don't have time to follow the the science for example I had a PhD uh and I was working at the ministry of the environment but I really didn't have time to read the newest science at that time because I was really focused on the the I had like we have very um thin government so there are no extra people working there so you have a lot lot of responsibility and a lot of work to do so there are certain people who have time for science and then there's the other who who work with the issues of day-to-day and and and uh uh and I think that this is one of one of the key issues where we should put more pressure on that that the uh public servants should be um um uh should be required to follow the science that should be part of their their job all the time and and that should be um supported more. That's one thing. The other thing is the social constructivism that was part of my my uh my uh doctoral thesis that I was actually looking at that once you get into an institution you start to socialize yourself into it. You start to work as you think that is expected from you. So you don't need to have a political steering anymore but you kind of read the signs and and start to work as a public servant for example that okay this is the way the public servant works so I do it because people want to um belong they want to uh be accepted and they want to to do their work as they think that this is the way that other people are expecting me to do this work. So it requires a lot of uh courage and a lot of work to to come out of that role and say that no things should should change and this should be done differently than it's done now. So there is lot to do.
Okay. Um I pretty soon want to move on to audience questions because I am sure you guys have many. Um but maybe one more thing. Um, I'm just I'm just wondering how how can we as students um do what you did, create a meaningful job for ourselves that actually changes things even if it doesn't exist and in that is there something that institutions such as Aldo could do to take a more active chance in encouraging us to do that um kind of Yeah.
Don't do it alone. I mean, I was a little bit terrified when when hearing the the concept of moral ambition as an idea that well, just have a greater ambition, be strong, be brave, be more disciplined and really observing my own life and my own career. It's been share good luck of encountering great people who kind of uh educated and taught me I mean as peers that kind of uh helped me to kind of hone my perhaps systemic view on the world by providing different aspects from different disciplines.
um sharing what they wish and aim to do, what they deem as important in in this world and that was I mean due to going to different types of civic action type of things which were partly focused on certain societal goals. some of them were more just kind of a peer-to-peer activities of sharing sharing what what is important at this stage of studies or life.
uh so whereas there's a kind of a tendency of individualizing us and isolating us I think we should think that as a kind of a normal part of life spending time in boring meetings or gatherings that are I mean target towards organizing uh perhaps an event or or a party or something um it's not something oppo opposite to leisure time where you could go to I mean hobbies where you I mean perhaps train yourself or consume but it it it is one extension of that being a human being a citizen in in in this society uh so I would like to kind of change that perhaps not even use words like volunteering or activism but saying that it's part of civic life it's part of being a human being and and and prioritizing that what universities could do? Well, perhaps encourage students to do something like this to to to to self-organize to to to kind of uh have more self-organized I mean parts of both formal studies but but also showing the importance of other other kind of a student activities uh which is of course seem to be occasionally nowadays in in in contradiction with the with the kind of a goal of getting uh students to to to kind uh graduate early. Um of course inviting different types of speakers uh to university who could not only tell about their successful careers in rather traditional career paths but but also what people have felt proud of uh in in their life. That could be something else than achieving a high position in in certain organization or doing something very unique. It can be also about kind of a being an active member of a society or being an active member of civil civil society or having the having the kind of capacity of really uh taking forward things that you learned during your studies.
>> Maybe I can follow. Um so first of all uh in defense of Alto um this is enabled by an initiative that is known as sustainability action booster and I don't want to say that it is Alto's idea the big alto but it you know someone had an idea it was an amazing idea and there was support for that and then of course the money comes from the university so I think nice things are happening also these interchool interdisciplinary programs.
These are not to be taken for granted, these are not necessarily existing in all universities in Finland or globally.
So, let's acknowledge that. Uh, but if I um can also be critical, I would really like to see alto first and foremost because I know it the best. But in general, universities of our times could um there is a bias in terms of societal stakeholders and who we engage and you know the desire is that we engage and do research and work with businesses. So of course this is important. Businesses are also um agents of change in society.
All of that is okay. But I think universities um can and should uh support and encourage uh research and education partnerships with other stakeholders of the society including you know third sector non-governmental organizations, activist organizations and create opportunities for this to happen because these things happen um when there are funds available mostly um or when there is you know metrics in terms of like how did you create societal impact? I helped company X to develop technology Y. Wow. Okay. We're going to promote you. Well, what if I have actually helped Greenpeace to you know develop a new form of non nonviolent uh climate action for example can I also be acknowledged for that? So I would really encourage uh universities of today which are mostly uh kind of biased towards yeah let's collaborate with business business no let's collaborate with all stakeholders of society and not privileged businesses uh so that's also my kind of constructive uh suggestion for Alto and other universities >> then even have that goal of changing the businesses by inviting them together with other stakeholders ers to I mean really ponder questions that are overly difficult and and and challenging for for for them and taking that as a kind of even explicit explicit goal that well businesses most businesses don't know what they place in the world will be in 10 to 15 years time universities and perhaps students know that even better and other stakeholders.
Do you wanna Johanna add something or should we hear from the audience?
>> I think it's time to give the audience the room.
>> Great. Okay. Um I need someone to pass the mic around if somebody has a question.
Um I am hoping we have one more mic.
Yes, we do. Great. Um so what do you guys think? Is there something that you would like to ask here?
Uh hello first of all thank you and uh you're continuing this topic mention like interdisciplinary practices and kind of continue to transdisciplinary practices and uh wonder like what is the perspective of governments and uh what are the like movements towards this or transdisciplinary approaches to solving problems?
Yeah. Um well I think that for example the science panels are one example of that that bringing bringing the professors from different fields together to bond this and this is actually where the magic happens that people from very different science uh backgrounds come together and discuss the same issue from a different angles.
So I think there is a for transplinary there is a uh it has already started but it's really important if I understood correctly what you're asking.
>> Thank you for all of your thoughts. I am curious about I feel like a lot of people often have this kind of iterative scientific thought of how they think they fit into changing the world. So what is your current theory of what you think changes the world and theory of change?
>> Plant seeds in students minds is my theory of change.
>> Well, I've had always the idea that it's not one thing but number of things happening in sequence or more or less in the same time.
Um I would say that there are certain areas of hope. I think we've must uh rediscover the idea of a communal action or the self-organizing movements.
uh our thinking has been I mean representing certain era of first uh rather institutionalized perhaps NOS's and certain type of global movements or local movements but I think we should be able to kind of uh vide that thinking a a lot more for instance I mean I once heard a theory that all new things are uh are born in civic take action.
Companies cannot cannot create anything new. Nor can uh politics or or civil service produce anything new. Not even science. They all have their own fields where they have to compete with others either on markets or on on kind of cit uh water support or uh in in in in case of science in the kind of a peer reviews which are somewhat kind of a conservative. So everything new comes from civil society and that civil society can still happen within academia. For instance, people meeting informally discussing as academic peers on something that is not yet been published or is somehow perhaps transdiciplinary or is outside the kind of a traditional discipline so it doesn't get the action. It can happen within politics and companies. And I would kind of encourage for instance people to organize within their kind of workplaces in groups that are not necessarily aiming to make change now or within the next year or come up with a kind of agenda change agenda that they then give to the directors but instead just have enough exchange on what would be the way of I mean um I mean somehow aligning our understanding on what should be achieved. here. What are the kind of a possibilities towards leveraging the change? Uh and then gradually also develop in an iterative manner manner that plan and then keep on kind of just discussing it and kind of experimenting new things.
>> Yeah, I think that uh world changes when we normalize things like the new things that we want to happen. So I I I think that's that's really important and that needs uh many different uh stakeholders to speak up and also to be courageous to speak up the new new things once you normalize for example uh eating ve vegetarian or not flying or or things like that when they can become the ones that and I think that during the time of social media this is one of the that can be very um powerful way of change to just show the kind of world that you want to live in kind of live in the future already. The what kind of future you want to see live there already and tell that this is normal.
This is how I want to live my life. So when coming to a citizen level I would like to share an inspiration of mine in relation to this. Um so uh this is not a theory of change but in a way it is. We all have to play what is uh referred to by a philosopher as finite games. I have to play the professorial tenure game, promotion game, publication game. You have to play, you have to play, you all have to pay. Getting grades, this and that.
These are all finite games and their basis is very individualistic competition.
Uh but as long as we keep why do you know the as as long as we have an answer on why do we play these finite games and how are they related to the infinite game that we are all playing which is a collective game which is which doesn't have an end which is not about competition but it is about emergence and creation of futures that are desirable for all um uh I think that can create a compass. So you know theories of change various um but I think thinking about okay what is our compass of change might might be a maybe nicer uh metaphor uh to think about. So you know every day because this is one of the one of the challenges uh major challenges each of us experience. we have to do things that we don't want to do uh or sometimes not aligned with our values in order to achieve things that are bigger and very important for us. So also thinking about okay what's the finite game? What are the finite games that I have to play and win so that I can keep on playing the infinite game with my community towards this future that we collectively want.
>> Thank you. That was very well put. Um does anyone else have a question? I believe we have time for one more.
Yeah, thank you so much for the really fascinating discussion. Uh I have sort of a twopart question I guess. One is when we're looking at systems change, how do you confront entrenched interests that are sort of benefiting from the system and want the system to stay the same when we know it's not benefiting all of us. And uh secondly, and I think Alexi touched on this, that systems change, it's not just an individual level problem. It has to be a sort of democratic society level inclusive process. So how do you also try to make sure that we're engaging a lot of different perspectives and perspectives coming from lots of different areas and also kind of balancing these two things?
How do you make sure that we like balance the destructive sort of forces that are trying to maintain systems that we don't want with also including a lot of different voices in this pathway towards a system change that will actually be more kind of a utopia or something that's a more just world.
Maybe I can start because uh the sustainability panel just published a vision for the next government program just a couple of weeks ago and this was actually both of these uh were a little bit touched upon in in this vision because uh one thing that uh is directly put written in there that we should get um um um that in the in the democracy part that the money shouldn't buy the votes.
>> So there should be more um it should be more um easy to to um to influence the decision making even though you didn't have the funds. So this is one. Uh the second maybe related to this is how you make the um how you cooperate with how you make the new new kind of um what is the word in English uh like with whom you friend with and and do things together. So who you take with you. If you have a interesting vision and you want to go forward then you have to look the pulse that you have something in common with and not go the usual suspects but go with some someone else who has a new idea and who has already thought this through and you have similar issues to to get get on with. And the second thing you ask about the inclusiveness and this is really something that that our panelists have been talking a lot about that uh the change has to come from bottom up. So we really have to engage the citizens and give the voice to them to to them and we don't necessarily know what they want but we have to live with that. We have to give them enough information. We have to to have to have some kind of visions for them. But then then they have to have the power on the on the local level more on the inside of the communities and and we have to have uh different kinds of um uh tools for them uh like like citizens panels for example where we actually hear what they want and actually take that into the decision makers and and and have that.
So, so these are um these are our visions. Uh but of course the concreteness is we need more discussion and more discussion about what are the concrete ways of getting this f.
Thank you. I think we are out of time but this was fascinating. I'm so inspired, so thankful for all of you to have listened and for you guys to have joined me. Um, yeah. I think it's time for an applause.
Great. I think we have a break now and um we will have a a feedback form on this slide pretty soon I think. Here you go. Um, so yeah, let's continue the discussion. um today and also you can write us your thoughts. Thank you.
>> Great question.
>> Yes. So once again, thank you for our panelists for their inspiring thoughts.
Now we have food on the kitchen counter.
So, bagels from round, please go and grab some.
There should be plenty.
And then we will get back here in 20 minutes. So, 4:30. Please enjoy the food.
Hello. Hello. Hello again. Uh let's start in five minutes. So please finish with your food and get seated once you're ready. Let's start in about five minutes.
All right. All right. Let's slowly get back to our program. Hope you all had a nice food break and got some coffee. Um, next up we have a very interesting keynote speech from a climate activist on Nepala.
So she is the strategic specialist at Operatio Arctis which is a very very cool climate activist group in Helsinki.
Their mission is to equip the Finnish society to anticipate and prevent irreversible changes in the earth system which is one of the key questions of our time. So without further ado, let's give the floor to Ani.
Thank you. So, these temperatures is unable to prevent some of these collapses.
Then we think that we need to re uh more research on additional measures potential additional measure meas measures called climate interventions. a lot of very very wordy words here today in this presentation. So please don't get um scared about this whole thing. So basically um I'm going to go have a brief overview of climate interventions, what they actually are, why we talk about them, etc. So emission reduction and carbon dioxide removal are may be more familiar to you guys. This is something that, you know, a lot of the environmental um groups can agree on and this is something that we're already putting a lot of um energy behind which is great because we definitely definitely need these. But this was the sort of oh wow the others are working great. Um let me go here. So solar radiation management and targeted climate interventions that fall under this category were the ones that people weren't really talking about. Thank you so much. Um, and these were the things that we might maybe be able to do addition in addition to these approaches and I'm going to go through three of them very very briefly. I will not be able to you know touch on the whole whole um very complex topic but this is one of the most um most discussed ones and basically we're in the situation where there's only at this point technological ways in which we can cool down the earth in the in the short term. Right? because if we and you know hopefully when we get those emissions down it's going to take a while before that actually affects the temperatures here on this planet. So basically this is being researched right now to sort of figure out if we could have a way to cool down the planet quickly. And well when we looked into these things it was very very clear from the get-go that we have some very very significant knowledge gaps when it comes to these technologies.
um huge risks. Some of them we know about and some of them crucially we don't even know about. So known and unknown risks and there's no governance right now on research and development of these technologies. None of these that I'm going to go through. Um but not even uh not even on the on the research and development but not on deployment either which is really really worrying especially since we have a US startup right now claiming that they would be able to deploy this sort of technology uh in 10 years. But basically the idea is that we would have some tethered balloons or a special aircraft that would um spray additional aerosols into the upper atmosphere. So the stratosphere and that would reflect more sunlight back into space. The same way in which you you know it's a warm day outside you put a white t-shirt on to not get so hot. Very simple um and relatively cheap. That is also why people are getting more interested in this sort of technologies.
Um and actually a very interesting thing um is that Finnish Marco Gulmala um and his group are researching for a biiobased aerosol that we could do this with because right now the most discussed method involves uh um these um aerosols that would might be kind of toxic for human health which is wearing as well.
Uh but basically um two other ways in which we might be able to intervene in these collapses um quickly um is marine cloud brightening where you would spray just salt water basically um evaporated salt water into um clouds and local glacial interventions in which you would very shortly kind of try to find ways in which you uh you could support these glaciers and um prevent the warm currents from kind of penetrating the underbellies of the glaciers so that we could basically buy more time. This is the way in which these technologies are um are framed generally is that these would be a way to buy more time to do do the big systemic change and transition which is generational work.
But yeah, it was really clear from us from the get-go that this is not simple.
This is very novel topic and very basically if we want to have empowered decision- making in the future about these techniques, we need to have a lot more people um involved in the debate in the discussion because right now these are being developed, these are being researched. The interest is growing the the financial interest is growing obviously as well.
um because climate um impacts are getting worse every year. So the least we can do is talk to people about these more. So basically when we talk about updating climate strategies for the 2030s is earth system tipping point risk management. So predicting these risks better, preventing them and preparing for the worst um which is the fact that you know we might be facing uh collapse of um some of these systems even if we tried our very best with prediction and prevention. and that alongside decarbonization, we need to have more knowledge um and more governance of these climate intervention technologies plus indigenous engagement and cooperation. This is something that is is a really big discussion in the space of climate interventions and obviously we work on this from a justice perspective. There has been issues where these research has been done on for example some indigenous lands and obviously this is something that is important from the justice perspective but from my perspective is also really really important just to think about that you know we have these different know ways of knowing the world. We have different knowledge systems and if we were ever to do something so planetary um it would just be really really silly not to include every way of trying to know the world in the process.
And yeah I think in the end our analysis is based on this idea that increasing knowledge about these technologies. So basically researching them is the best way to empower decision- making and that if we halted the research and we stopped the research that wouldn't actually give power to the most vulnerable people in this decision- making either because that would actually in my opinion just push the whole development into the hands of you know um ungoverned private actors.
Yeah. But that was kind of the the very um basic overview of what we do. And what interests me obviously in this um very very special event that I'm very proud to be a part of is is how we've done this and how we're doing this.
Obviously, most of you probably are aware of the fact that climate isn't really trending as a topic. It's a really really difficult conversation to have right now.
in the sort of poly crisis situation.
And yeah, hope was was mentioned earlier and this is kind of my specialty um rant that I love to do, which is that as a young person working in climate, it's always always an issue that you get this comment of ah you're you're building hope and you're creating hope and you know these young people are so desperate and you have to bring hope and this is some always been really really like difficult for me to navigate this sort of um this uh discourse of hope and despair and climate and whatnot. So I created this um this to kind of explain why I think both are really really really rubbish perspectives to solving the climate crisis or even living on this planet or being in relationships with people being a human being in general.
I think both of these perspectives is so bad because both of these assume that you know everything.
You know how things are going to be. You know how things are and you know how things are going to be. So nothing happens plus you're arrogant.
And I think in this very complex world what you need to do is find something that doesn't fall into either of these categories.
So hope is a nice feeling but agency is a muscle that you can train and obviously when I talk about this people say ah I completely agree with you I completely agree with you but you know it's action that brings hope it's action that brings hope but I I kind of disagree with that as well because I don't think that hope should be the end goal of any action obviously it's a nice side product if you get to it sure I'm not against you feeling hope if I if I inspire hope and I'm not not going to be mad at you after this. But the point is to get agency.
And so our question I think from the beginning was what grows our agency and how do we become the sort of people who can make this happen? What needs to be done?
And so obviously money was the first answer to that question. Um, but also just reaching out to people, calling people. Like I think activists often struggle with the exact same thing that people in sales struggle with, which is that they just don't pick up the phone.
And I've struggled with this a lot.
Every week I I sort of wrestle with myself like I I should just call them. I just should call them and things don't get done until I just pick up the phone.
And Finland is such a country of such like um low small hierarchies in a sense. You can walk on the street and and and run into a major politician. And I think we've noticed that you know just talking to people just reaching out uh is the best way to go go about this. And obviously um working with people across the political spectrum for example often raises a question of like a strange bedfellows and I don't know like I feel like if the climate crisis needs something it's fresh perspectives and fresh eyes to this whole situation and sort of looking at this whole situation from the perspective of if you woke up today and you heard about the climate crisis today for the first time. You had no like preconceived notions about what action looks like and and and who are the people who are who stand against you and who are the people who stand before you? What would the most practical person do in that moment?
You woke up and someone tells you this is the situation where we're in. And for me that leads into working with really a big variety of different people from different backgrounds.
And I think the fourth thing is that you own what you're accountable for.
So at some point when you have these huge ideas about what you should do in the in in in the world and what should what should be done, you just at some point have to claim I'm the person who is trying to solve this issue. And that's how you get the skills to do it.
You have to do that.
And so people start expecting that you give them answers and then you start working towards that.
And yeah, we we are called a science communication project. Um we won an award for science communication um a state award uh last year. Um and obviously this is something that has been recognized in society more generally that is that we need science communication. you know, there's a science and we have politics and there's it's just like a mismatch between these different spheres, right?
And obviously we could just, you know, make um kind of take this science and put it into a nice message and then put it out into the world. And I think that's really really important as well. But there are researchers who are being taught how to communicate about their projects. I mean, increasingly, um, if you're a researcher, you need to learn how to communicate. But I think what's what's missing the most is contextualizing all this knowledge that we're drowning in right now. And so I think that's the most important thing that we do is that we try to take the the climate science the the risks assessments and and the papers that come out every week and look at them and tie them into action and looking at it what matters what these people need to hear. I go meet politicians. I go meet uh ministry officials.
what is the what is the uh thing that we need to take from all of this knowledge.
So, I'd say science conceptualization as well as communication, I guess. And this is a great great quote from from Anton, our colleague, just from like two weeks ago. And I kind of this made me kind of emotional, actually. So he just sat there and he was like, "Yeah, I don't I actually don't think there's been one climate science report that has come out in all of this time that we've we've done this work that didn't like straight away translate into okay, how we're going to fix how we're going to fix this, how are we going to put this information into what we do?" And so this I think is is the big sort of psychological thing that has happened in this group is that knowledge gets connected into agency straight away. And I wish I had more like specific answers to like as to like how this how this was able to you know happen how to do this. Um but yeah, taking knowledge into agency.
Um and about ambition because we're here on moral ambition although um I read this paper recently about how actually ambition and um aspiration are two different things and this writer was really critical about the word ambition and that actually ambition often you often assume that you sort of you have access to the things you're trying to achie achieve.
you already have access and you just have to get there. And aspiration um is where you understand that you have some knowledge and some skills and some values that you need to find find out and build before you get to that that point. Um and starting out like none of us are climate science experts. Um we come from multiple different backgrounds, humanities, arts. Um and I think every year some of us has gone through this process of like am I the right person to do this thing? like this seems completely impossible and and so difficult and maybe there's some person with with with a better diploma to do this this thing and and is this the place where my skills are are are you know I can get the most use out of my skills and so this is my advice don't do impossible things you can't do alone because when you're surrounded by the people that make you learn and and that make you realize that you don't need just ambition but you need aspiration to you know to become the person who can do these things that's where you can do that then when you can do impossible things and the last thing I'm going to end end this on on this one so that we can get into the the questions is that um I have a personal anecdote Uh my partner has a has a child who's now pretty grown up, but she as a child never got told be careful.
And I think this is really important when we look at this this sort of world that we live in right now. It seems scary and it seems that we live in this world of danger and the first instinct would maybe be to be careful. You know when you go out there into the world but you know this this child never got told be careful.
They always got told be skillful, be smart.
And you can imagine if you're a child and someone tells you you're going like a path that you might, you know, get fallen down or something and someone doesn't tell you be careful, but they tell you concentrate, make smart choices.
I think that's the that's the mindset in which we could in which we should go out into the world to get those skills. And I think the the most um the people that got the most done in this world are the people who have been both aspirational and ambition uh ambition people. So don't be careful, be skillful. Thank you so much.
Now we can take um some questions for Anie. Um just shoot your hand up and I will bring you the mic.
>> Hi, thank you so much for the talk and well done on the work that you've been doing. Um so I have a question and uh given its nature I don't expect a full complete answer and because I think it's also a very individual thing but in the context of the uh you know structures we live in and the fact that we have to play a game that we don't necessarily want to play uh but we have to uh out of necessity if we want to do something if we want to change Something also in the context of sustainability and justice being so complicated that there is no solution, no action that will be perfect, that will not have risks or drawbacks that will not exclude uh one group of people or the other.
So, uh, given all the compromises that you have to do when you do that kind of work, do you have any insights on how not to lose yourself?
>> Yeah. Wow, that's yeah, huge question.
Thanks. Thanks. That's a really important one and I think that that's something that I come back to a lot in this work. Um, and I'd kind of bring it back to how to be the person who can get things done.
And I think that's the leading idea that should be behind that sort of when you're thinking about that those sort of sorts of things. It's like if I meet with this person, if this person works with me, um will this sort of water down my message or will that take away from what I'm trying to do or will it make me more powerful in this world to do what I need to do? And I think it's it's always a really really, you know, tight balance, but it can be it can be funding, you know, will this sort of funding um help me and get me more able to do this thing or will it kind of make my word work harder? And I think this is something that I struggle with in the sort of traditional leftist I guess um activist groups is sometimes I feel there's you know there's weariness towards the idea of being being powerful in the sense that you can sort of connect yourself into powerful things and powerful movements that are going on without losing yourself. And I think that's a really big thing. I think when we talk to people who are most against us, I think the most valuable way to do that is to get into close contact with them in order to see these people from, you know, from eye to eye and realize what they need and what they want. And you know, you might call me like mushy liberal when I say this, but I think this it's it's really really important.
And I think that's not a way where you lose yourself or the conflict or the battle kind of waters itself down necessarily. It can actually be the you know situation where that becomes even greater and and and more fruitful in a sense.
>> Yeah, huge question. Thanks.
>> Thank you.
Hi. Um, thanks for the talk. Um, any practical tips on lobbying or doing the sales?
>> Yeah, pick up the phone. Um, besides besides besides picking up the phone, I think, yeah, I think yeah, lobbying is a is a is a difficult word. It brings a lot of negative it has a negative um feel to it. But I think us especially if you're if you're trying to bring the message of science to politicians for example then you're doing something that most of the people on this planet want you to do like maybe not thinking about that in a sense that it's like this kind of very gray area of the world. It's it's a part of democracy that you go to talk to people and politicians live in the world and they meet people and they get into contact with new information and then they build what they do based off of that. So I guess going to people and telling them, hey, I have this information. Have you looked into this? If you haven't, I I I'll be able to, you know, give you like a 15-minute briefing of this thing and I can leave you with some material and that's going to make your job a bit easier.
And usually in my perspective um 25 minutes is enough if you have like a solid case to make to a person and that's 25 minutes in in in which you know you're making their work easier for them and I think yeah giving people um the credit that they can make their own decisions after talking to you um is really important not to think about as as this kind of like um I don't know yeah like a dangerous gray area. It's It's very very important that people go to talk talk to people and and politicians and and and officials especially.
>> Thank you. I really liked your talk. Um and I really love this quote or this um message. Don't be careful, be skillful.
And I really want to be skillful and ditch being careful, but I can't help the fact that I'm also a person who loves like peace and harmony and kind of like is afraid of a conflict. So I was wondering do you do you face a lot of resistance in your work from like I don't know the politicians that you're trying to lobby for example or kind of and how do you how do you live with that? Um because I think it's pretty natural for humans not to like to not want to be in a conflict all the time.
>> Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that's the the reason that I usually don't maybe bring a conflict to the table because usually politicians are in the midst of, you know, a ton of different conflicts. Um, and yeah, I think first if you want to be skillful, I think the best like biggest piece of advice that has, you know, got me really far is to surround yourself with people that are more skillful than you. There's nothing more um more good than that to kind of just like get you on your toes and and and learning new stuff. But yeah, I I don't I don't know. Like I I haven't got a lot of push back from the people that I've met recently, especially, you know, there's um a lot of media coverage right now about, you know, the AOK um AOK current uh collapsing and how that might affect Finland. And I think my experience is that any politician that I go talk to, they're like, "Oh my god, what should we do?" Like, "Please tell me." Um, and I guess when you go to talk to someone like that, you should just give them one very concrete practical thing that they can do and they can, you know, put forward the next day. You know, I think it's that simple. I don't think anyone's going to be really angry with you when you when you bring some something like that to them. So, I think yeah, I encouraging words. I haven't actually had that from from from that side of society at all.
Any other questions?
You come talk to me afterwards as well if you have question specific questions on stratospheric aerosol injection or something else that's catch.
>> Yeah. Um yeah, first of all thanks for your talk and uh yeah I have a question about the ecosystem and maybe how do you work like across uh different like fields and do you feel there is like certain kind of unity even within organizations who work uh in the field of like climate change and um do you feel like there is somewhat of a unity and th those communities inspire each other and push each forward and like >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's good question and I think um I think recently people are seeing how useful that is and how important that would be. So I'm I am seeing um some shifts going on where people realize that you know climate isn't getting a lot of attention that and that we have to have synergies between different groups which is really really great. I think there are a lot of lot of things that that we can agree on and at the same time I feel like maybe during the next 10 years there are going to be um a lot of changes. We might, you know, face a lot of new climate risks and we might, you know, face, for example, this startup coming up with this technology that they can cool, you know, potentially cool the earth with with different risks and stuff. And there are a lot of you know difficult conversations to be had because a lot of new novel discussions are coming up that you know the environmental movement hasn't had the time to kind of get their hands on and get a grip of what they're thinking about these things because they're so new and I think things are changing at such a pace that those qu uh like conversations have to be had but definitely I hope that we'll be able to have that sort of synergy and and and connection moving forward. forward as well even when it comes to like these more difficult conversations.
>> Yeah. But maybe if you have a point like what's needed for more unity.
>> Oh gosh. Um I think maybe right now if if I go to like more grassroots sort of level like my work in in Helsinki as a person working on these things is maybe just to have like these more relaxed sort of um more relaxed strategic discussions about what pe people are bringing to the table like talking into at a party to a friend who's working on the same things like hey should you you know send me your your points for the next meeting about AMO Can should we kind of I I think it's really really um it's about networking and I think right now um it could be even you know something really really um yeah not something official and and big even but something that you know could bring people to the table. maybe meet um once or twice a month just to hang out and and talk about what what people are doing maybe.
Okay, let's have this as our last question for Ani and then we can move on for the coffee break. But please go ahead.
Um from my perspective I think sustainability and the other things should be a lifestyle.
So which can be done by either by family or maybe taught in the school to the kids. So they will be becoming the next generation who can be more sustainable.
So uh if you think about that what's what can be done like maybe doing some sales I mean talking about those things in the school or maybe yeah I think yeah a big question again um but maybe one concrete thing I would do is so I do some uh amount of like talking to high school students for example um talking to them about this stuff and I I think the first thing that I always try to do is break apart this sort of idea of climate change and and the climate crisis and whatnot and and you know approach people from the perspective that I'm not from this sort of soup of climate activists and every time there's like a climate discussion one's going to jump out and like do their speech like it's a bringing these um these changes to the very human level um everyday life level I think is really really really important at the same time I think there is a big need to get fresh eyes and fresh perspectives uh on the table and and there I think um yeah maybe changing the way the language in which you talk about these things to be something that you know people get can get a part of even though they're not interested in in climate change as I as I wasn't but to kind of forge that connection through which we can come to the same table and I think these um recent news is something that uh will be really important in that and I think this whole thing about the AMO AMO collapse um is that it's completely new information to everyone and I think we definitely need to approach it as being something that you couldn't know about you couldn't know about any politician that I meet you had no chance of knowing about this thing I had no chance of knowing about this thing so yeah finding those those paths through which we can come to the same table without like this huge baggage of what this discussion is.
Yeah. Thank you so much.
Yes. Thank you so much Anie for your interesting talk. And now we have coffee and donuts more importantly from round.
There are super many flavors. Please go ahead and look what's your favorite and enjoy them. Uh let's have a 15-minut break and we'll be back for the workshop part then. Thank you.
Okay people, we will continuing in five minutes.
Five minutes people start getting back to your seats please.
Thank you.
>> Is this on? Yes. Amazing. So people we will be continuing in about five minutes. So if you don't mind please find your seats. Thank you.
So, hope you guys are enjoying the coffee break. I just wanted to announce that we are starting in about five minutes. So please find your seats slowly and let's continue with the workshop in five minutes. Thank you.
All right, people. Let's let's continue with our program.
Please find your seats. Thank you. So next up we have a workshop hosted by Carla Still. Uh Carla is the former executive director of effective altruism Finland and um she will help us find our role in systems change. So um without further ado, let's welcome God Perfect. Um, before I start, we'll take quite a few notes here. I'll make you take do tasks and it will be an intensive workshop. So, if you want to run and grab a notebook or a laptop, um, feel free to do that right now.
Otherwise, phone will also be fine.
But yeah, let me take my notes as well.
So I'm very excited to be here today with you and that so many of you have uh still have the energy after so many sessions to participate in this workshop.
This uh is a workshop inspired by the organization's 80,000 hours and probably good but I've done a lot of modifications still to it um based on what I know about this audience here today.
So I'm checking if I get my notes to work.
Uh I'm Carla Still as said I study sustainable entrepreneurship in the it's a master's degree in Ala Business School and before that I said I was the executive director of effective altruism Finland.
there. I did a lot of career advising because one of the main goals of EA Finland is to support people in making changes in their lives to have a bigger impact with the time they use.
And I've also attended a lot of career workshops myself and had one-on-one guiding and I hope that I will be able to uh forward some of that those learnings to you.
So when I talk about career advising, think of it more broadly. Maybe career fields like very narrow-minded for some that it's like working 40 years uh in some company but it you can also think of it as a series and of projects that you do of how you can use your time. Uh this involves also if you want to do volunteer projects or free time things um the same frameworks will apply for that. There's mainly three goals for this workshop here. I want you to get familiar with impact focused career planning frameworks uh to generate new ideas for yourselves of how you could be more morally ambitious and at the end of the workshop have at least one clear step of how you can go forward. By the way, I will uh share these slides with you afterwards um somehow figure that out. Um yeah so the structure today it will be a blend of theory uh personal reflection and sharing with others next to you and uh we have four sections what is the problem you should focus on that's I think very important to start with so just focus on something that's actually big enough that it can have a difference large difference there's also the theory of change how do to create solve the problem essentially how do you connect that with your personal fit and lastly how do you reduce uncertainty on your path to impact so let's start with a small pretask that I want you all to think about for maybe a minute what does positive impact mean to you or social impact what does it mean to do good this is a word or words that are thrown around a lot In society, everything is like impact nowadays. But deeply deep down, what does it mean to you? Please write it down. You'll use this later.
I think most of you are ready. Now I want to share mine. It's of course like just my definition. Moral philosophers have been debating this for thousands of years. So there's no objective truth here. But I thought it's uh good that I share it because this is the perspective from which I also designed this uh workshop. So it might help you understand the perspective that I have.
So essentially to increase or maximize well-being impartially with impartially I mean that regardless of where do you live what time you live people matter equally or also across species caring about non-human animals.
So let's get started with part one. What problem are you trying to solve?
So, how many here find this small pink guy kind of relatable of just being addressed with a lot of problems and being a bit confused of what should I really do here? How can I contribute to this help?
Um, so there's for sure a lot of problems that you could focus on.
However, our resources are limited. We are limited in time, energy, money. So thus if you want to be morally ambitious, you need to prioritize.
uh I will use this framework of scale, neglectedness and tractability in this first part to help you prioritize and focus first on global health as one more narrow field as an example where after we will go to cross cause comparisons such as how do you compare the risks of climate change with that of nuclear war and global health.
So starting with the scale of problem, it's maybe a little small here. I hope you see something still. But if you want to have the greatest impact, you want to focus on big problems, those that affect many people and also largely. So in global health research, a common metric to measure impact of different diseases is disability adjusted life years.
So essentially if someone dies prematurely, say you died at the age of 10, but your expected life without that disease would have been 60 years, 50 years is lost. Or if you have say a kidney disease and people typically say that that's their life, one year of life with the kidney disease is like 50% worse than otherwise. Uh then two years equals one disability adjusted life years. So summing this together, you can see that uh the global burden of disease is mostly created from cardiovascular diseases followed by cancer at around 10%.
However, here we have conflict and terrorism at the second lowest one. And I don't know, but isn't it a bit surprising how little it is compared to how much it's talked about in media about how much it decreases our well-being?
Well, scale is important, but it doesn't matter alone. We should also look at how much resources are used to solve the problem.
So, the more neglected the problem is, the more lowhanging fruit you can expect to find there.
Uh, this chart we have the disability adjusted life years on the x-axis. So, you remember cancer being quite high on the top here. is also very long in the right. Um on then the y- axis we have funding spent annually by the national institute of health in the US. So this is not like a perfect chart to tell how much funding is annually used globally for this but US is still a big um contributor to the research funding. So we can be pretty happy right that there's a correlation the more a positive correlation that the more uh disease is uh the bigger the disease the more funding. However when we look a bit closer it's not perfect and this is where we might maybe find some um diseases that are relatively over or underfunded so that you on the margin can have a bigger impact. For example, we have hepatitis C here on the very left. So if you follow it in a straight line to the right, there is much more um much bigger diseases with more burden who create more bad so to say who get approximately the same funding annually.
So it gets quite good funding. Uh then we have can we compare cancer and injuries.
So injuries are relatively underfunded compared to cancer.
I found this one uh quite interesting that migraines are relatively um big in this suffering that they're causing for humans and but compared to the disease it's understudied. So this is a way to approach it how to find problems to focus on but they're not alone enough.
For example, aging.
It causes a lot of the bad health outcomes in the world. It impacts all of us. It's also not that many people are likely working on it, but it is is it solvable if we added 1 million or billion euros to it. Would it would we make significant progress on it?
probably not as much if we compare it to for example neglected uh tropical diseases where we basically know what we need to do to eradicate them but we just haven't poured enough money into it yet.
So now moving on to the cross comparison.
These are a bit more open questions. How do you compare different species to each other? How do you compare the life of a human to that of a chicken or a dog or dogs to each other? The suffering there?
How do you take into account temporal aspects?
Do people who live today matter as much as those in the future, 100 years from now, 10,000 years from now?
How do you adjust for uncertainty? Maybe we have relatively good models about what the impact of climate change will be in different scenarios or where we're heading. How do you compare that to the uncertainty of we pretty much know what will happen if there's a full-scale nuclear war, but how likely is it in the next 100 years uh with risk factors and versus direct problems? I'm thinking of direct problems as for example pandemics.
If there's a really bad pandemic, that has a direct impact on the economy, on the well-being of people, but if the democracy declines globally or in different key countries, that also impacts how we are able to cooperate if there is a pandemic or to prevent them.
So these are not easy questions. I'll try to answer them a little bit from how I think this can be approached in the next tasks.
But here's a sum summary of scale neglectedness and tractability.
Um, yeah, I won't show this too long because it already talked over.
And now let's go to the first task. So if you have a paper, it's easy. You can do five columns and four rows. If you are working on a more linear uh phone screen where you're taking notes directly down, maybe you can just add one row for each problem and then like subsection of the scale and sum it up. Um you'll see soon how it works.
So here's like my example to walk you through how you can approach this. So I chose the three problems I want to compare to be climate change, biorisks such as boweapons or pandemics caused by the acceleration of AI development and Finnish poverty. And now I rank them from one to three first on the scale. So which one do I believe has the biggest impact?
I wasn't so sure about the difference between climate change and bio risk. For example, for climate change and we can pretty much model out how much impact it has right now on people uh in the next 10 20 years and that it has a much higher impact on people in low and middle inome countries. Maybe that that 10% of population than people living in Finland directly um and it will have an effect many many years uh to the future especially as we go over tipping points. uh AI by risk on the other hand I also think that's very uh big in scale especially there's probably a lower risk in a sense maybe 5% chance of us having a full scale bigger than COVID um pandemic in the next 10 years I'm just making speculating here like don't quote me or anything walking you through that thought process more like and if that happens and say 90% of humans die. That also has a big impact on people who didn't get born or who can't live because of that. Yeah. On the other hand, I think it's understandable that poverty in Finland, it's okay. I was maybe cheating here a bit by choosing very geographically small area, but also people are relatively better off also in poverty, although it sucks here compared to many other countries. So then filling it in for the other things. Uh bio- risk has a lot fewer people working on it relative to the scale of it than the two other problems. So that's why I put a one on that. And for attractability, I think that there's a lot of lowhanging fruit there based on a talk I was on last week.
So summing it up, it seems like the most promising problem to work on which might be on the margin the best where we should put one more person to dedicate their time on is AI bio risk, two climate change and three poverty. So yeah, hope this makes some sense to you.
Next I hope uh I ask you to do the same to choose three problems of yours. Um, for example, one which is a personal passion that you're already interested in, one which you are curious about or one that you haven't explored yet but think it could be interesting to um or possibly a potential candidate for this top three list. Don't think too much of that. This mostly about like practicing this comparison. Then rank them from one to three. Uh you can do quite wild estimates if you want to jot down what you're uh thinking of like 10%. Okay, eight billion people this happens here.
That can be a way to do um like know how you came to these numbers.
Sum it up and then if you have time over um maybe Google, ask AI to verify some of your assumptions, see how that would change your um ranking.
So I'll give you about eight minutes for this.
Um, do I have a timer? No, I don't. What if you took They're not listening to me. If you play press eight on that, what happens? Yes.
Nothing happened. It should make a timer pop up.
Yes. And then you turn it on.
There you go. Heat. Heat.
Heat. Heat.
if you want some help. I can also walk around. Just raise a hand.
So I got a couple questions about uh how to hit the numbers. So what I did here of course this is very simple uh very simplified but one being like most important and the lower the number is in the sum the more important it is. a bit like golf, you know, you win if you have least points.
So, Red being like, "This is a bad thing. This is a bad problem.
Heat.
Heat.
So maybe I can still clarify that it is good when we're trying to find pressing problems to do if it's big big in scale if it's a bad problem if it's neglected because then we can find low hanging fruit and if it's solvable. So all those are like thumbs up and the lower number If you're not sitting next to someone and want to start discussing, move closer. Huh?
What?
Can Okay. Can I get a show of fingers? How many more minutes would you like to discuss?
>> Five. Two. How many minutes do you want to discuss more?
I'll give you four.
Four total.
So if you haven't already move to section B of discussing with your uh friend next to you of like quickly share your ranking and then try to also get feedback from others. Would they rank the same way? Uh why not? What are the assumptions differences?
So, let's move on.
Here are some resources that I would that I generally recommend if you >> I'm going to use my hack. Oh, >> look. This is cool.
So, uh here are some resources uh for you to explore further if you want. I really love our world in data. I used some graphs where they were already earlier in this presentation. Uh but they have on many like global issues from democracy to climate change, impacts and energy availability.
Um really good work um like collecting data from many public sources and research and making it understandable for lay people. And then out 80,000 hours also has these problem profiles which uh can be fun to look into how they have evaluated different um career paths or problems that need to be focused on that what you can do about them and they have a very focused they focused a lot on or how do I say they put a lot of moral weight into the future generations. So that informs why there's not so many things that are about like global health is on only on eight hair whereas someone else uh might prioritize differently.
So congratulations now we've done the first part and then moving to how can we solve these problems and do a theory of change. So I made met Chris at the effective altruism Nordics conference a week ago and asked if I can share his story with you. So he has a background in as a PhD and post-doctoral in immunology and computational biology.
Uh a year ago he was offered two options. He got an professorship from Karolinsky instituted in autoimmunity but he was in simultaneously considering stepping out from academia to do independent research in global biological catastrophic risks and especially these AIX biorow risk that I talked about earlier of how does AI development accelerate pandemic risks and what can we do to prevent them for example mirror life is something that's researched very little because it's hypothetical to date but might be pos possible to develop in the next well within this century possibly I can't say exactly um so I imagine he went through a process something like this so what we already did was comparing these problems with the size neglected tractability and Chris told me that he believed that pandemic risk posed by AI progress are definitely a much bigger and neglected problem than the autoimmune diseases that he could research as a professor.
He also knew that in he wouldn't work like independently in a vacuum. He had already uh other organizations that he could work directly with and influence policym or lab practices to avoid leaks or better practices of what do we do with open source data about bio banks now that that can also while improve positive health outcomes and medicine development that same data can be used for developing deadly pathogens.
Then he also um so he knew that he has a clear direction of what his how his research can decrease the problem he's interested in. And what is his leverage in the role? Maybe in academia he would have a better support network. Maybe he could have a secretary who offloads him of tasks which are not in his strength and he can focus on the things that he's especially skilled on. Um, but on the other hand, the academic path might pose him with tasks that are not the ones that he believes are the most important for him to work on when it's such a pressing problem and the research is much slower.
Well, we know what he ended up doing.
He's now an independent researcher, got a grant for transitioning and I wanted to share this way of thinking of how how to go back and forth considering the problem with your personal fit and the options you have at hand.
So when you think of which potential solutions to work on theory of theories of change are very practical tools. They explain how your assumptions of actions and input lead to the desired goal or the impact. They're important for internal clarity.
I'll just show this here. So going in this process like what are the actions I do? What is the output that is created by that uh maybe intermediate outputs outcomes reaching to the goal and the impact. It helps you um know yourself, how you think that your actions will have an impact. What are you expecting to happen after you've taken your things? Uh maybe what happens before that. But also when you communicate ideas with others, trying to find collaborators or maybe even funding.
When doing a theory of change, it's generally advisable to go in the order that I've uh put here. So starting with the impact that's the thing that we said in the very start when I asked you to the pre-task what does social impact mean to you that would go there and then your goal maybe the problem that you're focusing on how what uh we want to improve um reduce pandemic risks which we believe will lead to more well-being for example or reduce climate change and then what are you thinking that your action is are you working as a journalist communicating the dangers of the achok for example and what happens here in between I'm sure that for example operatio arctis have their own theory of change of how they will reach the reduced negative impacts of climate change through the work they do and have assumptions laid out as and as as well evidence maybe from other organizations or on why is this intervention action good what are our biggest uncertainties here so let's go through this through an practical example I uh took the freedom even though I'm not part of the core team of plant-based alto to make a theory of change for them so this is not an official one I just uh have been at a couple of event and made uh some assumptions hope they are appro approximately correct so their goal is to end the climate crisis and they're are doing this. So they know that some expected emissions reductions would happen if their intervention went true, which is to have more people at Alta eat plant-based foods at the lunch than they would otherwise due to better selection and maybe some secondary effect that if the lunch restaurants offer only plant-based food that would maybe normalize it and people would eat it at their uh free time as well. the actions they are doing. They're running a a campaign for 100% plant-based food at student restaurants at campus. And that those activities include forming a group, uh creating a petition, collecting signatures, and many other campaign activities. An assumption they have here is that they will be able to find support for the campaign and they have some evidence that other similar campaigns that in Europe have been successful.
Then they have thought the im immediate intermediate output is to hand over the petition to the managers at alta. After that they expect that the leadership is urged to make a plan to increase plant-based food um maybe phasing out other animal based foods uh over next five years as they own the restaurants uh location uh the facilities. they can decide over what these what companies may do in their facilities and here an assumption is also that management does care about the u student petition.
So this is not complete but you can already get an idea of what the theory of change looks like.
And now please talk for about four minutes with the people next to you about what do you think is working well in this theory of change? What assumptions are missing that could be added? Any evidence that you would add or that you would flag is missing potentially? Where are the jumps between the connections here? uh too be too vague where maybe here's something the auto leadership makes a plan. How does it lead to the companies not having uh animal based foods to serve or how does that lead to climate crisis ending?
Maybe at least partly. Uh so everything clear? Please raise a hand if you want me to explain more. And a 4m minute timer, please.
So, hope you had some good discussions.
I love this.
So, should you work or contribute to plant-based delta? I don't have a direct answer to that, but I'll uh maybe help you think about it. So, if you assume that the theory of change has a decent chance of working out, that's the next step to think maybe. Um, so thinking about again with the same idea that we had with Chris, how big do you think this problem that they're solving is compared to maybe other problems that you might be able to contribute to? How efficient is their method of achieving that again compared to other things you might be doing? And how big would your le leverage be in the group? It being a studentrun project, often an individual who is dedicated and spends some hours a week on it can have a big impact on if it works or not. But that time could also be spent on something else. So looking at your options and something that I would also highlight with this kind of volunteer project is to maybe look at what do you gain from this in a way that it puts you in a better position to have an impact later in your life. Does it give you connections that could be valuable? Does it bring you skills or knowledge or reputation or sometimes maybe does it could it even harm your reputation or reduce it? These are all things that uh are worth considering or they can help you in making decisions of what you should do.
Um, now it's your turn to think of the problem that you had in part one that you decided this I want to focus on. Uhhuh.
Someone is working. And uh or if you want to do this on another problem, feel free to do that too. And think of a intervention here in the activity section or a job such as a role starting an organization that does something like operatio artist for example or working in government influencing policies doing research in academia or in think tank. Um there's so many options.
Choose one that you think is the most like reasonably potential to have an impact and then start thinking of what are your assumptions. What would happen after that is done? How does that actually what is the mechanism that leads to your goal being achieved? What are the assumptions that you have down here? What is potential evidence?
This is all about getting more clarity about your plans.
So do this silently by yourself for maybe start with five minutes.
Awesome.
And raise your hand if you want help.
Hands up if you feel ready.
Hands up if you want two more minutes.
Let's give you two more minutes.
And like if this feels rushed, I understand. I spent like at least two full days doing one of these.
Cool.
We had a quick uh chat there if we should uh give you a break now or try to end this sooner.
We decided to not give you a break.
I hope that's okay. So, let's move on.
And if you just need to like stand up, shake your legs a bit, I don't like, please do that if you feel like your brain is starting to get mushy at 700 p.m.
Um, oops.
So uh I wanted to give you a note to remember to be careful of confirmation bias that it that you search evidence that supports what you want to believe because if you really want to find a big positive evidence for intervention, you will find it. And that's not the goal if you want to be morally ambitious.
However, right, we want to keep the actual end goal, the impact in our mind and stay open-minded and humble when we're searching for the best pathways to solve real big problems.
It can be hard at times and like annoying if your favorite means or favorite problem doesn't turn out to be the best thing you can work on. Um but please I very happy if you approach it with this like humbleness and cheer on you. So here again some resources that uh might be of interest.
So uh the top three here on global health animal welfare and climate change are organizations which have uh looked at the effectiveness of different interventions.
Uh and then down here is like ways that you can find more high leverage roles such as like obvious until you have when you have thought about it reaching out to people who are in a role that you might be interested in or working in an organization that are doing things. What is the actual day-to-day work like? Do they believe it's uh as impactful as it could be? um if they were in your position and wanted so have the same goal as you would they what what career path would they take now um and also look at the recommendations of these organizations and the EA form down there is the like effective altruism forum that if you look at the topics you can get a lot of inspiration from people who have been writing and thinking of things online so third part let's Oh, personal fit.
So, of course, strength and weakness matter a lot for your performance and how well you'll do. And also, if you don't like your job, however impactful it is on paper, you're probably not going to be good at it if you don't. If it doesn't fit your personality, your lifestyle, your strengths, and you might burn out. We're here in the long run.
Don't burn out, please. It's also does incre decrease well-being which is not our goal right um so this time I'll talk a lot less and let's just dive into the task because it's useful to selfrect on what matters for you what environments you flourish in where you're not at your best also think of what you might be more uncertain about maybe you could love research group facilitation bookkeeping whatever but you haven't just tried it out yet.
So, here's some prompts that you can draw inspiration from uh when you reflect.
Do it individually. You don't have to share this with anyone unless you want to and write it down in a free format that is good to you.
Let's take um five minute timer for this.
I hope that this uh evoked some new thoughts and insights.
I'll give you another one for now. Look, these have these for example. Very fancy, right?
I got your attention again.
So, um I did this a year ago myself like fill in all of these and then um I actually gave it to an LLM to like summarize it and see do I agree with this and now I have this like fivepoint list that I get back to every now and then when I'm like considering what they want to do next. Does it fulfill my uh personal needs and wants?
the list had like I like doing spreadsheets and I like doing workshops so I like being here.
Um so now let's go to the final section about how to create impact pathways and how you can reduce uncertainty for yourself.
So, we're in this for the long run and many of you have probably more than 40 years of career left ahead of you. And so, instead of asking yourself what are you good at right now, that's not so ambitious. Ask yourself what could you become good at if you consistently work towards it for many years.
So, next I'll show you career hypothesis uh or pathways for impact. So earlier we identify a problem um and thought of roles where it could be needed. So when you're thinking of how to land for example a high impact role which isn't really achievable yet today for you can approach it from two directions.
So what did the career path look like for people working in these roles that I'm interested in? If I uh person I'm looking at for example grant makers at animal welfare organizations how did they land in those roles? What kind of skills connections uh degrees knowledge did they have that helped them get there? What if that is something that is across many of these people and that I could uh also learn from but also looking from where do I stand now? What are the decisions I need to make in the next year or can make uh that's ahead of me and where would that lead me?
So now I'll do a case on me. So uh I'm very interested in reducing farmed animal suffering. We have about three land animals or like livestock living in factory farms for every human on the planet. So I think there's a very large in scale and very little money is put into it. So I did some research to figure out the bottlenecks uh based on what farmed animal advocates say are. and well I took it from animal advocacy careers and went to a career advising session with them and talked with some other people. That's the research. Um they said that it's sometimes hard to especially hard to hire for competent leadership.
Fundraising is something that they often struggle with, but also they just want money. Uh that's one of the real big biggest bottlenecks for this problem. So rather than wanting me to volunteer for them, they prefer if I could just donate.
At the same time, I had decided I will quit my job a year ago and was thinking, should I do a master's degree, start a company or just get another job.
So from this I you know I decided to do a master's degree and then I went backtracking there and thought that if I upskill in for-profit organizations and try to get into management's roles while learning about animal advocacy on my free time.
Maybe that could put me in a better position to be eligible for those roles one day. And what could I do now? try to take some relevant courses or try to land an like startup internship because there are people often give you quite a lot of u responsibility in reality my plan looks a bit more like this uh where I'm considering multiple paths at the same time and trying to see like where do they uh convey so I was thinking maybe I should uh build or join a startup to make money to donate and then over time in the past months I realized like what if I just make people donate so I don't have to make the money like in 10 years. So consider what I can do with that.
Um how do you then approach different uncertainties you have? These are just some quick guidelines that write it down all your thoughts. You have hypothesis, uncertainties, different options. Then focus on cheap tests first. With that I mean what is like very loweffort things you can do to know um wow sorry I got confused by that. Where did that come from?
But this I mean like something what is this something you could Google? Like uh we once had a career advising session with someone who's thinking like should I do a PhD? I kind of want but isn't the salary low? So during that session uh my friend who was doing it they just like googled it because then they knew what the salary was and it was okay for their field and they were like why now I have more certainty so like start there and then over time do more expensive tests that take more time or so so here's an example for how I could approach it. I'm thinking of work I was thinking of would I want to work for an animal advocacy organization for farmed animals in Finland. Uh I describe it as like maybe corporate campaigning. Uh main uncertainties were uh what is the uh impact for this compared to just donating to highly impactful charities and how would I personally fit into this community? And so I'm yeah I'm not super passionate about animals. I just think it's makes sense to work on it. Um, and then writing some tests uh that take uh less than 30 minutes to do, that take less than what, two hours, one week, maybe even longer.
And at any point where I feel like, hey, now I've reduced my uncertainty and I know this is maybe not for me, I move on to the next hypothesis. Or then I continue here until I maybe eventually decide to land a role, something like that.
So what I want you to do next is to do something similar.
List different career or project hypothesis you're considering. Uh add a description if needed and the main uncertainty you have and start figuring out how you can get more certainty or knowledge about if this is a good thing for you to pursue.
It doesn't you don't have to fill it all the way down. The most important is that you find the cheap tests now and It's fine if it's a bit patchy.
Eventually, I want you to um add it to your calendars, but let's start with just making the table.
>> Um four minutes.
>> Yeah.
Have you uh found one task which takes maybe less than 30 minutes and a place time when you could do it? If you haven't yet, I'll give you um 20 seconds to add it to whatever system works for you, be it your calendar or some to-do notes so that you get the step closer.
Yeah, maybe you're done now. Let's move on.
So, big congratulations for making it through this workshop.
I could sense some tiredness and brain slowly getting a bit slower but you still worked good and I'm very happy that um you were also engaged and just like being morally ambitious is not easy but I hope this workshop helped you in uh getting some clarity and maybe raise also new questions of uh how you could make the world a better place.
It's hard but you're showing up here which is amazing.
And a short ad that effective altruism Finland and Ala effective altruism is organizing this intro program which is a 4-week facilitated reading group in small cohorts. You would dare dive deeper into similar topics as those that we had in this workshop. learned about more about existential risks about how to measure global health and development work effectiveness, cost effectiveness or um yeah the role of animal welfare compared to other things. How to expand your moral circle but and this is in Helsingian online.
I'll give you a couple seconds more to scan the QR code if you need to. But yeah, the and under altruism.fi FI you can find it and if someone wants to know more about the community just come and talk with me also in general if you um I've thought of these things for quite a year some years now and I'm very happy to share more resources with you and if you have like a particular area you're interested in um or any questions like just come and grab me now after this um or send me a message very low barrier for that Welcome. Thank you. Thank you for me.
Thank you so much, Carla. That was amazing and inspiring. Um, it is time to wrap up the day. I want to thank all of you uh for being here. It's been an amazing day and I'm so proud of our team and you all for coming here.
Um to wrap up this day, I want to take a few minutes, just a small moment to digest the learnings and the thoughts from today in a form of a mini meditation. So just get comfortable in your seat. You can roll over your shoulders.
You can take a deep breath in and allow your eyes to close if it feels good.
And just observe your breath for a moment.
Feel how it moves your chest up and down.
Feel the chair under you on which your body is resting.
And you can scan down from the top of your head towards your toes and absorb observe how your body is feeling at the end of this day.
Is there tension or discomfort?
And as you continue to be aware of your breath, just notice how your mind is feeling.
Is there tension?
Is your mind restless or calm?
You can slowly start to turn your attention towards the sounds of the space.
Feel the surface you're touching the air on your skin and allow your eyes to open.
when you're ready.
Thank you everyone.
Thank you. I did not even close my eyes and I feel more relaxed after this.
Thank you and thank you all for the amazing first day of this two-day summit. We have heard a lot of inspiring ideas today and also got to reflect on concrete action plans going forward.
I still want to highlight what Lee Pulis uh mentioned earlier today as one takeaway.
Don't ever doubt that a small group of dedicated people cannot change the world. It is the only thing that ever has.
And with that said, we want to remind you that if you're an Aldo student or you're friends with an Aldo student who can make the application, uh the sustainability action booster is at your disposal, um and they're ready to support you in small projects or bigger projects like this one. Uh just like they supported us and they are here as well. So just um Anna, I think she's somewhere here.
>> Anna is somewhere here. Um I think in the other room talking to someone maybe about a project. You can find her.
>> Yeah. So um don't hesitate to go talk to them.
Yes. Yes, they will.
Yeah. Sorry. Um he asked if uh SAB will be here tomorrow and yes they will. So definitely you can approach them tomorrow as well. And that brings me um to my last point which is that tomorrow we have just as amazing a program as today um with a focus on startups. So we have uh still some spots left for tomorrow. So you are the most welcome to join. Yes.
Yes. And now we still once the last time uh give a round of applause for everyone who has been actively uh making this day happen. Let's name everyone at first and then give a big applause in the end.
Okay. So, moral ambition all the team for making today happen. We are amazing looking at you.
Well, we can clap all the time. That's also nice. Yeah, let's make that. Let's make it loud. Then, Sustainability Action Booster for funding this beautiful event.
all of our amazing speakers for today.
Maria 01 for hosting us in this lovely space.
Thank you. And most importantly, of course, you our lovely audience. Thank you for being here the whole day.
Thank you.
Yes. Uh this marks the end of our program, but you are most welcome to stay here in this space. Uh we will be staying here until about 9. So uh no rush to leave immediately. We still have a lot of donuts, a lot of snacks. Um so go get yours before they're gone and let's continue >> the discussion. Thank you so much.
>> Thank you.
>> Hit it, DJ.
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