Racism, Trauma & Betrayal in the White Evangelical Church: A Conversation with Anastasia Tomkin

[00:00:00]Hey everybody. I am so excited today.

[00:00:04]This is Anastasia Tommpkin.

[00:00:06]>> Hi everyone.

[00:00:08]>> She is beautiful and delightful and wise and I cannot wait for you to meet her.

[00:00:15]Anastasia, welcome.

[00:00:16]>> Thank you, Amy, for having me. I'm so excited to be on today. I can't wait to have this productive conversation with you.

[00:00:24]tell everybody where where you Okay, so I am based in New York City. I love New York City. I'm very happy to be here.

[00:00:33]I've been living here since I moved from my country, Trinidad and Tobago, almost 10 years ago. Um, I visited some other states, but I've mostly been here.

[00:00:44]>> What brought about that move? You know, a lot of people consider the United States to be the land of opportunity.

[00:00:52]And I was given a green card through no effort of my own by my dad who had been living back and forth between the US and Trinidad for some years. And so I felt like it would be something I should take advantage of. I was very comfortable in my homeland, but I felt like there were maybe limited job prospects. I hoped that living in the US would allow me to have like a higher income and you know more opportunities, adventures. So I took the chance and I moved in late 2016. So like literally just after uh President Trump got elected the first time.

[00:01:33]>> Okay, >> that's when I came.

[00:01:36]>> Well, let me tell everybody how we met and then also what you do. So, we met on a call with Matthew Priden, and my viewers are familiar with Matthew. I've interviewed him a couple of times. He is the one that did the documentary about the rise of Donald Trump, race, and religion. And so, we we do this call twice a month. Matthew invites it's mostly black leaders and pastors from around the United States. And uh he invited me to sit on sit in on this call. and I was really honored. And so we met there.

[00:02:15]>> Yeah. So I had been following Matthew on Instagram for a while, not a super long time. And yeah, then I saw the opportunity to jump on this direct call with him and I I needed to take it because I had never seen a white pastor that was so spot on before and like his passion. I really really admire him and I don't know him personally at all. But I think God is bringing together everybody that is interested in this kind of work and that really has a heart for the Lord. Like he's bringing us together in this season to encourage each other, to support each other, and to try to bring about some change. So yeah, the fact that you Amy liked what I had to say on the call and you figured that, you know, I could be a great person for your show, I am I am just like ecstatic that God placed that on your heart because this is exactly what I want to be doing with my time in the US right now.

[00:03:13]>> Oh, I Well, I'm just honored to have you. one of the things that I picked up on right away. So, you were just very wise for your age, the insightful things that you were sharing on that call, and I just couldn't stop thinking about the the verse that says, you know, don't let anybody look down on you because you're young.

[00:03:33]>> Mhm.

[00:03:34]>> And it it started occurring to me. I really haven't talked with a lot of people your age about what's happening.

[00:03:41]And I think that you have some insight that you can share with your elders. So that really struck me and then just your knowledge and wisdom. So let me give just a little bit of your resume here so that people know what you do. So Anastasia is a community organizer with the office of the community liaison in New York City which helps to monitor the implementation of stop question and frisk reform which by all accounts that I've heard reform is needed. She holds a bachelor's degree in French and Spanish from the University of the West Indies and a master's degree in journalism.

[00:04:23]This none of this surprises me. As soon as you started talking, I was like, "Okay, she knows what she's talking about." She has published nearly two dozen articles talking about social equality, economic policy, and criminal justice reform. And she is a committed Christian and a proud member of Bridge Church New York City. You can find her on Instagram posting about the intersection of faith and politics at Anastasia Tommpkin. and I'll be sure and link that in the in the show notes so that people can find you. They're going to want to find you. So, do you want to elaborate on any of that work that you're that you're doing now?

[00:05:02]>> Yeah, I mean, I would say from a young age back in high school in Trinidad, I developed this heart for racial justice and for race relations in the United States. I had no idea at the time that I would even get to be here. Zero idea. it didn't seem like a possibility because my family was like lower to middle income and also I was living with my stepdad at the time and my mom. So my biological dad who has access to the US wasn't even really in my life yet. So yeah, there was just no way I could have seen myself moving to the US and God just really worked that out. So uh I think I I spent years like looking at movies such as The Great Debaters, The such as Selma, Lord Salma, which talks about Dr. King's journey. Um, and I just felt so moved by it, by the struggle, I guess, for equality, and it stayed in my mind and my heart. I also read Tequila Mockingbird of my own accord at a young age. And yeah, so I think learning about history um all through high school, all of that, it just really stuck with me.

[00:06:12]And then once I came here, it all kind of came to fruition and I met other like-minded people and I started getting involved in activist work, but we don't actually call it activism anymore. We call it community organizing.

[00:06:26]>> Okay.

[00:06:27]>> Which I don't know. I think they whoever made that choice figured it sounded better for whatever reason. But I think like the average person that isn't involved in this type of work, you just tell them you're an activist and they get it, you know? Oh yeah.

[00:06:42]>> But I appreciate that God has opened a lot of doors for me to do the kind of work that I wanted to be doing, whether that was just writing my own articles or even doing what we call workplace organizing of my own accord. And now I get to actually work in the reform process, the reform space. So that's pretty cool. I also do freelance journalism. Yeah. It always amazes me and I don't know why it still does but it's just so awesome that God puts in us a desire or an urgency from a very early age and then even when it looks like there is no path there is no way that we would ever be using these gifts or he finds a way to to bring it out. It reminds me of that verse in um Ephesians 2:10. It says, "You are God's masterpiece created in him to do the good works that he planned in advance for you to do." And I just as you're talking, I just see that so clearly that he has been teaching you from a young age and now here you are actually using the skills that he put in you so long ago for such his intended and important purpose. So it doesn't seem like it's any huge coincidence that you came to America at 2016 in 2016.

[00:08:09]>> Yeah. Yeah. And you know I had grown up in church. Uh Trinidad is pretty religious as a country and my mom she is a devout Christian herself. My stepdad was Christian. So I grew up in a Christian household. And I even think that was God's divine protection and just the the story that he had for my life because I'm someone that I like cur I like complexity. I'm very curious and I am into things that are layered and you know just not easy to define. And so the fact that I was exposed to the nitty-gritty of Christianity from a young age really fits me because you know like I I was exposed to certain concepts that you are fearfully and wonderfully made by God from like day one that God has a plan for your life that the end of the world is fast approaching. You know learning verses learning all the different Bible stories. I think it really helped me to be able to now do this work because you have to be so patient and like kind, compassionate. You have to really know the Lord and trust him and fear him to be able to do social justice work the right way, right? and not leaning into hatred or not leaning into just your flesh nature that wants to fight fire with fire.

[00:09:43]>> Well, that was one of the things that really struck me on the phone call with Matthew was you're so rooted and grounded in his love and know who you are and what you're called to do at really such a relatively young age in your, you know, late 20s, early 30s.

[00:10:01]you're still working out who you are, who Christ is to you, who what you really truly are, rooted and grounded in your calling, you know, all of that stuff. And so you seem so so stable in that and I know it's because of the times that we are in. It's for such a time as this.

[00:10:19]>> Yeah. Thank you. Um, you know, it's an ongoing process. I think God brought me to the right church. I've been at Bridge for one year and Bridge has a organization that they're attached to called Premar Act that my pastor, Pastor James Robersonson III, he co-founded it.

[00:10:36]I'm also a part of that and just everybody there for the most part believe in racial justice and also want to live life in a Christian way. So, I have found the type of community that keeps me grounded and strong and where I'm going to still learn and grow, you know. So, I'm just super grateful to the Lord for that. And I've met a few different Christian communities while I've lived here in New York City. I've loved every single one of them. Um, but I do feel like where I'm at right now is where I'm supposed to be for this very difficult era. And one of the things that we talked about on this call is this era is so difficult because we have a president who is being upheld by racism and by white nationalists sending out racist memes. He entered into politics based on a racist conspiracy theory. He continues to this day to to not call out these racist groups and uh he continues to to make racist comments.

[00:11:43]So one of the reasons that we feel that God is bringing us together in these days is so that we can kind of build a spiritual coalition to to come against this movement that is corrupt and being upheld by by hate and divisiveness. So what can you tell us about your insight there? Yeah, you know, it's such a big topic and even as someone that works in journalism and so therefore I'm supposed to be able to talk about politics with authority, with knowledge, like this is a moment that is incredibly intimidating. And I thought I was like stronger than this. I thought I was so passionate about racial justice that like I would never get scared. I would never get intimidated. No. So, where do you think that's coming from?

[00:12:35]>> Just the fact that he got elected the second time >> after the absolute like chaos of his loss. That was just such a spectacle, right? And it was just like one thing after the other and I did not see it coming. I genuinely thought Camala Harris was going to win and I was devastated when he won and I realized that I have to pick myself up and I have to continue living and I have to push through. Um cuz this is what everyone else was doing. But what I mean is like where the fear is coming from which you asked is that we're now what like 2 years into his second term and it's just so normalized. you know, the corruption, the amount of lies that he spews on a regular basis, and the fact that the church, the mainstream church supports this has been mindboggling to me to the point where I'm like, God, you know, if if the Antichrist is ready to come on the scene, like, we we could just do this because this is a lot to live through. But, you know, I I recognize that the Christians of old, they went through their tests and their trials and this is ours. You know, for me as a young person coming up in this era, like this is my burden to bear. This is my cross, right? And I don't want to back away and be like, God, just end the world already. Like, let's not have to do this. I guess we have to do it, you know? And I guess he's going to empower us to do it. And so the moments where I feel weak and I feel afraid, I just I say, "God, this is why I'm human and I'm nobody and nothing." And you are God because you can handle the weight of all of this. Like you make me brave, not me.

[00:14:32]I don't know what activists that are non-Christian are doing. Like I don't know where they get their strength from and their bravery and I totally respect them. But all of it comes from God for me, you know. So, what was it initially about Donald Trump that made you made those alarm bells go off for you and made you start feeling afraid?

[00:14:54]>> Yeah. Um, I think I wasn't as afraid back in 2016. I was just concerned. I was like, I don't like this. Because I was still living in Trinidad at the time, so I wasn't as plugged into the new cycle here. But from what I'd heard of what he was saying, I I was like, "Okay, that's not great. That's actually really bad." The whole grab them by the P word situation. And what I really hated was when he mocked the disabled reporter.

[00:15:24]>> I just thought that was so classless and tactless. And I was like, "Nobody's supposed to mock disabled people." I thought we were all on the same page about that. Like, apparently not. And apparently that's something that the Christians didn't think was that bad.

[00:15:39]That was one of the things that really really rubbed me the wrong way. And then now the fact that he really has like a hit list of all the people that he wants revenge on or that he's willing to target and attack from. Well, right now it's usually like elite people or people with real power and status. But I do worry that like he is a powerful guy and he really doesn't like anybody that doesn't like him, you know? So what's the likelihood that like I don't know that I could get caught up in the politics of it or I could be one of the casualties of the Trump administration's power cuz it's not just Trump, right?

[00:16:23]It's all the people that support him and that have their positions of power. So I think I'm more acutely aware in this era of my own poverty, my own like lower social status and my own human frailty.

[00:16:40]Like I I can't even fight, you know, like I would die in two seconds. So all of that is creating this like compounding sense of dread that I realize I have to push through that and like speak out because there are people speaking out like you Amy like you have your show and you're doing this so I don't know what you tell yourself when the fear does come but um I felt like I want to be part of the people that are speaking up and doing what they can than the people that are taking a backseat.

[00:17:12]Well, I want to really commend you for that because I think there is such a spirit of intimidation, you know, coming from the powers that be and coming from the White House and and really they do want people to just be quiet. They don't want people speaking out and they are seeking to oppress and intimidate and frighten people specifically, you know, minorities, obviously immigrants, people of color, people that are reliant on social services for help, you know, for for food or for uh medical care. They're taking taking those away. And you know the billionaires are prospering but there's a real sense of of fright that in this season that we are living in. So I commend you for not shrinking back because I think that that is a a thing that we all at one time or another feel like it's just I know in 20 when 2016 happened I was so overwhelmed that I just wanted to take to my bed.

[00:18:21]>> Yeah. I mean, I just could not believe it because I saw every spiritual red flag in the book going off around this guy and I could not believe that white evangelicals were supporting him and not paying attention to those warning signs which were very very apparent. So, I know that sense of, you know, it'd be easier just to keep my mouth shut, just to shrink back, not say anything. But I do think it's the Holy Spirit within us that is saying to be bold, be strong, be courageous, >> do not become in intimidated in any way and keep going forward. So that's what you're doing and that that is to be commended.

[00:19:06]>> Yeah, I agree. And you know it gives a lot of perspective to all the Bible stories that I grew up reading right where they were facing grave imminent physical danger like the um the fiery furnace right the lion's den even queen Esther with like they were ready to kill all the Jews she was a Jew th those stories yeah they were facing like the real threat of death and violent, absolutely terrifying, traumatic death that I cannot say if I was living back then, I would be strong enough to to resist that, right? Of course, I think God would help me just like he helped them. But it just goes to show like that was their battle and they succeeded. And so this is our battle. and our battle I guess it in in the western world or maybe specifically in the US and also specifically with our circumstances we may not face that imminent threat of death like very violent dramatic death but it there's still this psychological layer to it and I think um the bulk of the threat of this presidency for me has been psychological because there's a renewed sense of hierarchy in the United States and from a young age to be vulnerable here. The whole like concept of racism has been so painful for me and I I think that's what motivates me to resist like because it just hurts so much. It hurts to experience it yourself. And it hurts to witness your loved ones go through situations and go through their own like mental challenges with loving themselves, loving their features, withstanding the types of like racist comments they will get every now and then. It's just it's so ugly. And that's because it's evil, right? It's from the devil.

[00:21:11]>> I think that's what inspires me to fight it. And now we're seeing almost like white society doubling down on their right to privilege, their right to superiority. And it hurts. Like in very simple terms, it's just like I thought we were further than this. I thought I thought things were way better. And now I got the coldest reality check that America is who she's always been, you know, and I have to like live through that. I have to thrive within that. This is my youth.

[00:21:46]I don't want to spend my youth, my chance to get married and have a family just upset and bitter because Trump is in power. I can't like sacrifice my life for that, you know? Also, I still have to like look to black Americans for guidance because they are really powering through this. Like they show such resilience, you know. Um, and I I deeply admire them. I love them so much, especially Christian black Americans, because they're showing me what it means to live and enjoy my life and then also resist, >> you know, and it is not an easy balance to strike. Like, it is actually really hard for me as someone that has to learn it in real time. Um, being from a whole different reality, right? Cuz in Trinidad, it's a majority black and brown country. So this is my first experience of being a minority. Yeah. So there's much to be said about that. I would love to expand on this sort of like dual consciousness that we have to live as as um black people in America.

[00:22:52]Well, I I really thank you for sharing that because I have thought in my own mind that right now at this moment in time, all of us who are seeking to accurately represent Christ in the earth should be looking to our black leaders who have been through this before.

[00:23:13]That's why I think the black church is is anointed to lead all of us in this day. That's why I get on those calls and just try to listen and learn. And so I love that you were able to really pinpoint that, you know, they are actively showing us what resilience, what resistance, what knowledge, what wisdom, and what joy all look like coming together as we come together as one body in one accord to resist this evil. What would you want to share with some of your white brothers and sisters in the evangelical church?

[00:23:54]>> Yeah. Well, firstly, I would recommend this book right here. It's called The Religion of Whiteness, and I haven't even finished read it yet, but um it's so good. It's so well done. Michael Emerson and Glenn Bracie, and the subtitle is How Racism Distorts Christian Faith. Yeah. And so, it outlines how Historically and in the modern day, white Christians tend to accept the tenets of Christianity up to a certain point. Once the policy collides with their like white supremacist tendencies, they will abandon the Christian principle and they will promote the white supremacist ideology over the Christian ideology. So that's a general overview of what the book is about. And it also mentions how like black Christians and Christians of color are experiencing a term they call betrayal trauma when they realize that their fellow white Christians that you know they've been in community with all this time don't actually see them don't actually see their reality are not inclined to fight against racism or are even engaging in interpersonal racism themselves like they experience this betrayal trauma right because here you are you're my brother and sister in Christ. Like, that's supposed to transcend race. That's that's supernatural. Like, we have a shared belief in what happens after you die and what the meaning of life is. Like, isn't that important? Yet, you're unable to fully grasp what my reality is on this earth. and you're unable to walk with me in that way or support me in that way because maybe you become fragile or you feel like it's a non-issue and now I'm forced into this space where I have to either decide to deal with that because I love you so much and I want to stay in community and like it's not easy to leave your church home. it's actually a pain or call you out and potentially lose your friendship or make you uncomfortable or make my experience at church uncomfortable. So, um yeah, and it's a deeply traumatic thing that happens to mostly people of color that are aware of things because there are those that have adopted the white mentality. I will say that there definitely are and I have been friends with them. I love them dearly. They know I love them dearly, but uh we see things differently.

[00:26:30]>> I just I just admire you so much. Your your spirit of of kindness and generosity. I mean, I you're more kind and generous toward them who do not see than than I think I am. What is something in your own life that you could point to as a witness to what's happening in the United States today under this presidency?

[00:26:51]>> Yeah, excellent question. I mean, if there's a few things, I'll try to sort of list them all. I think it it has been painful witnessing certain like racist encounters within the church spaces I've been in and being in a position where I have to either challenge it and I have to challenge it the right way. I can't cuss anybody out.

[00:27:13]This is church here. And also, you know, you're not supposed to do it regardless of the setting or like just accept it.

[00:27:20]And there have been moments where like racist things were said or uh rather this one specific moment I'll mention where I was in a Bible study and we're studying Romans and you know Romans has the verses about respecting the state and the authority of the king and all of that and I knew Christians use this to distort the arguments for racial justice. Right? And mind you, they have used that argument from Romans since back in segregation days, right? To support segregation when you like look into the history of it. So, it was a a little bit of a tense Bible study. I had a great time. I I loved the cohort. It was my church at the time, but this one young man who was leading it, he's my age. He's a white guy. He's a lawyer.

[00:28:08]And he said one time in one of the final sessions, he said, "You know, one thing I love about President Trump is his slogan, peace through strength." Like, I just blah blah blah blah blah. And all I heard was he loves President Trump's slogan, peace through strength. I pulled my notebook out and I started writing just bad things. Bad things. I was writing it so that I wouldn't say it cuz I felt like if I said excuse me, I was going to derail the whole Bible study.

[00:28:43]Um, and they already knew that I was like someone passionate about social justice. But it still felt like a betrayal of self to me in that moment cuz I was like, I had every right to challenge that. I had every right to question what do you mean by peace through strength? What is the peace?

[00:29:00]Whose peace? Mhm. What is the strength?

[00:29:03]Whose strength? What is the real impact of the president's idea of peace through strength? Like, let's interrogate that.

[00:29:10]Let's not just assume that the majority of Christians in here are supportive of Trump and his policies because that is the dominant narrative that we keep allowing in the church that like the Trump supporters are the loud vocal ones and they get to say all the things on WhatsApp groups and they get to like stand at the pulpit with the mic and say that they support what he's doing. they get to lead the Bible study and you know like vocalize their support for him. But the ones that disagree, the ones that see that there's an issue that needs to be addressed, we have to remain silent for the sake of keeping the peace or for the sake of I guess not being antagonistic, you know, or I guess as a church we're conflict avoidant, right?

[00:29:56]cuz yeah, it could go left if someone decides to speak up, but I think it's kind of necessary and I think we're avoiding the hard conversations. We're avoiding challenging the ones with power and authority who are supportive of Trump and that's wrong, you know. So, I wish that in that moment I had the correct words to challenge him because that's what I think I should have done, you know. But I held back because I also was thinking about my reputation in the church. I was thinking like I know there's a way that this should be done and I don't know if I could do it in that way right now. But I think we can't allow it to continue. I think we need to have the hard conversations. I agree. I feel the same way you do about the writing. I write a lot. That is my outlet. And that's actually how my book started is I was journaling to God about all the things that I was seeing, comments people were making, the things that I was noticing about Donald Trump, and I was just pouring my heart out to God. And then I would just listen or I would read my scriptures and it felt like I wanted to write down what was on my mind. And the more I engaged in that, my journal entries just kept getting longer and longer and longer until I realized I'm I'm writing a book and and it turned into the Judas effect. So is your is your writing these articles is that an outlet for you? Is that how you are mainly pushing back on this administration and and getting your truth out there? Yeah, I'm trying to write my own novel, but that's apart from these subjects for the most part. I also would eventually like to put out fulllength books on this topic. I sometimes do videos on Instagram, even on YouTube. Uh, but like I think my consistency hasn't been great. So, I'm hoping that the Lord helps me in this next season to really like hunker down and churn out more substantial work so that like my views can have more of a platform, you know? Yeah. But so far like the articles I do, it's usually for publications. So, it's whatever my editor wants me to write. It's not necessarily what I want to write. In some cases, I do get to freelance and I get to write about like police brutality, for instance, is a common thing that I write about. But yeah, I do want to write more about Christianity and politics. So, another way that the current era has affected me is in work, right? So, I work for the office of the community liaison part-time and I had another job. It was in journalism, but they did not renew my contract. So, I have found that the narrative about like black women in the workplace or black people in general in the workplace and you know the attacks against DEI and all of that. It has had a psychological impact on me where I have to look for more work, but I'm like, it's such a terrible time to look for work and there's like 600,000 black women that have been laid off, you know, since the Trump presidency and everything like that. I'm so aware of the news and I'm so aware of the impact that his words and his actions are having that like it's kind of making me uh anxious and making me doubt myself like it has impacted my self-esteem and I guess I worry that it impacts how other people see me like the next job that I do get at the end of the day I'm going to be a black woman in that space and I have to also act as So, you know, race isn't that much of a thing. Like, I don't think about it super often, which I do, or I'm not worried about how they're perceiving me based on what I look like or based on my background. Like, it it's such mental gymnastics that you have to do. And I realized that's like the way of life in America, right? That's what I wanted to touch on that there's a certain like fakeness you have to be comfortable with in this society. And that has been a real challenge for me because even going back to the days before the Civil Rights Act, right, when there was all this segregation, the fact that Americans conducted their daily lives alongside the absurdity of segregated spaces and the narrative around why it's segregated so weak. Not just weak, but just evil. You know that, oh, they're separate but equal. But you can visibly see that the conditions in the black spaces are like terrible and um underresourced compared to the white spaces. And you're telling me droves and droves of people live their lives as normal. Like you went and sat in the front of the bus knowing full well that the black people have to sit in the back of the bus and that is your normal and you still had this fun life around it. Like that's sick. That's really sick to me, disgust that like it was just so normalized. And you know what? The same thing is happening today because we are forced into a situation where it's not like we could be like fighting the power 24/7.

[00:35:22]Like we have to live. We have to go to work. We have to like take care of our kids. We have to, you know, show up to church and talk about other things. You can't fight racism all the time. And so the effect is that like you almost can't see it all the time. You know, you can't let yourself be aware of the inequality.

[00:35:44]You can't let yourself be aware that like the police interacting with you is different from the police interacting with your white counterpart. And I think America is super comfortable operating in that double consciousness of both denying that like the racist hierarchy is a thing and living their best lives around it like especially the white people, you know, just acting oblivious and enjoying their lives as though there's nothing wrong. Like it's tough.

[00:36:14]>> We are seeing that all over again. And I'm so glad you brought that up because I have thought to myself time and again that what we are seeing with Christians who continue to support Donald Trump is a fraudulent Christianity. It's not real. It's a facade. And if you are supporting a person sending out racist memes, who is sending out pictures of himself as Jesus and then lying to you the next day and saying he thought it was a doctor, who is saying that immigrants are eating cats and dogs, who is sending out an army that he has amassed for himself and they are murdering people in the streets. And you can go to church comfortably and pretend that all of this isn't happening. There is something in your own relationship with God that is not authentic. There has to be something that a masquerade in your own Christianity in order to put up with the masquerade that is happening in the White House right now. So there is an an inauthentic version of Christianity that is playing out under this president. If you're not moved by it, you don't know the heart of Christ.

[00:37:26]>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think American Christianity is maybe under a very strong delusion and a stronghold of blindness. And I don't know what it's going to take to break it. I I think we need to break it. It has repeated throughout history. And now it's manifesting in this form where they're thinking like, okay, well, because they weren't legal immigrants, it's okay for them to be rounded up and just hauled off and deported and treated horribly.

[00:37:58]And you know, even kids are being held in these ICE detention centers. It's terrible. And I don't know, they don't seem to care that much. And it's it's alarming. And I think it's interesting because if we consider what they were saying was the reason for their support for Trump like I don't know they seem to have picked their poison or picked the issues that were most important to them right and so we all know that okay Republicans tend to support certain policies that Christians do support right let's say for instance abortion right so I've heard that uh because Trump and the Republican party were going to do something about all the abortion that is rampant in the country like that was why you know like not just that issue but all the other issues that Christians are like well I don't like that progressives do this or believe this or are pushing this. So I sort of picked according to what God was leading me to do. For me, it doesn't hold weight because when you engage with them on that level and you say, "Yeah, I get it.

[00:39:06]I agree with you on those issues." But have you considered what Trump is saying about race and what he's doing with racial equity in this country and how he's dismantling it systematically?

[00:39:20]Then we're not on the same page. And now all of a sudden, oh, you're talking politics. I'm like, wait, so abortion isn't politics? I could have sworn. You know what I mean? Like they're picking and choosing what they consider too political for the church to talk about or address. And I think that's super fake.

[00:39:39]>> Mhm.

[00:39:39]>> And it's just tired. It's obvious that they have a very simplistic understanding of what loving your neighbor means and of what like racism is. Like they think it's just interpersonal or it's hatred. And if everybody became Christian on earth, then there would be no more racism. I'm like, it's not what it is. It's unfortunately way more complex than that. Why? Because you have 400 years of slavery behind it.

[00:40:06]You have a literal cast system in your country. It's not just about not hating someone with a different skin color than you. Like, it's about dismantling the systemic racism in your country. That is one way. It's flowing one direction.

[00:40:22]Let's be clear about that. And Christians for the life of them cannot be clear about that. And that is unfortunate. And I want to liken it to the passage in James 2 where uh it talks about favoritism, right? Partiality. So it says in James 2, my brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.

[00:40:45]For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, "You sit here in a good place," while you say to the poor man, "You stand over there," or "Sit down at my feet," have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? So, I love this chapter because I feel like there's so much to unpack about how it relates to our modern understanding of race and partiality, right? Because it's clear that the partiality is flowing one way.

[00:41:22]It's from you're favoring the rich man over the poor man. If we were to say, well, it could also apply to favoring the poor man over the rich man. I mean, sure, but does it really make sense?

[00:41:34]like is it something we typically do?

[00:41:37]No, it's not. Right? It's decidedly one way because as people we tend to favor the rich, we tend to favor the privileged over the underprivileged.

[00:41:46]Right? So I think in that same way we could point to this verse and we can say uh you know the rest of it that says you shall love your neighbor as yourself, you are doing well, but if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. So, I would say that um Christians who engage in racism or who um are not interested in dismantling systemic racism are not loving their neighbor as themselves, right? They're committing sin. They're showing partiality. And it cannot flow both ways because of the magnitude of the attack on on black America and on like people of color in this country. It flows one way. It flows from the white supremacist elite and that narrative and that ideology against people of color. It does not flow from people of color to white people. It doesn't flow that way.

[00:42:42]It's from the privileged group to the underprivileged group just like it says in this passage. Right? So they often love to say like um well if you're talking about white people you're also racist da da da. And I'm like, racism, it flows from the privileged group to the underprivileged group, right? Of course, it's still wrong to hate white people. Definitely, you know, but I believe that the sin of partiality in this country >> that is coming out in James 2 is white supremacy. How did it make you personally feel on the 4th of July when you saw the picture of the girl in the subway surrounded by the masked white supremacists um who were protesting?

[00:43:28]Yeah. The fact that they are able to make such a demonstration and the federal government doesn't take it upon themselves to find every single one of those people, find where they work, find what they have been involved in that could possibly be criminal against people of color. That's mindboggling to me. I think that is what would be done in a country that takes itself seriously, that takes equality seriously. The fact that they were allowed to make this absurd march is just ridiculous to me. It's like I saw online someone said they're clan light diet clan and I'm like yeah they're diet clan and you know how I feel about the clan I can't stand them. So how I feel about Patriot Front you either you know I think it's interesting that they hide behind these masks still like take the mask off. Let's see who you are, >> right?

[00:44:27]>> Why are you hiding?

[00:44:28]>> What are you hiding if you're so patriot proud? And how did it make you feel that our government was so apathetic about them being there?

[00:44:37]>> Yeah. I mean, I think it goes beyond the government. I think it's the white Christian majority that this is almost their foot soldiers, you know, like they might say, "Yeah, we don't agree with violence against minorities, but they do support systemic attacks against minorities, right? They do support this notion of a hierarchy of race in this country and these are just the foot soldiers like giving some sort of I don't know pomp and circumstance to the reality of the infrastructure of power right so they I don't even know they should not be allowed to do that it should be condemned on all fronts by churches by the federal government like just condemned and prosecuted like it's a show of support for hate, you know, and >> Exactly.

[00:45:28]>> Yeah. It's unfortunate that it's still rearing its ugly head in this day and age.

[00:45:32]>> It is unfortunate. And I'm just I'm so thankful for your your wisdom and your voice and your insight and your your willingness to to really dig into the scriptures and the heart of God and for the social justice work that you do and the reform. It's it's so important. your voice is so valuable. Has God shown anything to you specifically about this moment in time that you want us to consider going forward? Yeah, I mean I think especially for us Christians, we should read the scriptures and see what God is saying to us about how certain verses relate to the modern time.

[00:46:12]Because for instance, I'm reading Proverbs and there are so many nuggets in there that either are like the picture of who Donald Trump is or it talks about the rich oppressing the poor and how that's wrong. It talks about how we should stand up for justice and righteousness. And uh yeah, I think Christians need to have those verses in their tool belt to stand up against the sort of arguments that are being made for the Trump administration, like in favor of the Trump administration.

[00:46:44]>> What do you think the Holy Spirit and the scriptures have shown you specifically about Donald Trump?

[00:46:50]>> Yeah. Uh there's there's so many proverbs and I marked them off the ones that I thought were really related to Trump, too. One of them I would say Proverbs 3:29.

[00:47:04]Do not plan evil against your neighbor who dwells trustingly beside you. Right?

[00:47:09]Because the Trump administration has been planning and plotting and executing evil against their neighbor, whether it's their immigrant neighbors or their black neighbors. You know, the Bible commands us to love your neighbor, right? And God is going to judge what they're doing. they might not get that justice on earth, right? The whoever the next president is going to be, they might not go after and prosecute the people in the Trump administration, but the Lord has seen and they are going to answer for what they have done, right?

[00:47:45]Because justice belongs to the Lord. But what I think we should be doing is in our own way getting together and speaking up and discussing these issues and praying against it. praying that the Lord raises people up who are ready and willing to resist and we shouldn't give in to the fear and the intimidation.

[00:48:06]>> I love about these online communities that are forming is this is a way for for some of us who have stepped outside outside of the institution of church for this for this time being. We are forming coalitions of love and unity and prayer to encourage each other all the more as we see the day approaching. And I feel so encouraged by you. And I I hope that you all are encouraged by this conversation because here we have a young lady who is very wise in the spirit who is in her word and who sees clearly. Anastasia, just want to cheer you on. And we just pray for God's grace to continue to be upon you as you spend time in his word and as you go forward with absolute confidence and unshakable faith that he has got you positioned where you are in this time and in this season for a reason. Your voice is very important.

[00:49:04]>> My gosh. Thank you so much Amy for having me on your platform. Thank you viewers for listening. I hope that you take something special away. and Amy, I appreciate you as a white Christian woman doing this work. It really encourages me and yeah, I just I love you. Thank you so much.

[00:49:24]>> I I love you too so much. I'm so grateful for you. Everybody go follow Anastasia Tomkin on Instagram, right?

[00:49:32]Mainly and find out there how how you can support her. Thank you so much for your your love and your wisdom and your and your generous spirit today. And everybody we will see you next