From toxic to sacred: Changing the stereotype of Indigenous dating | Face to Face

Added: 2026-05-06

[00:00:01]Tan. I'm Terry Wheatley and this is Face to Face.

[00:00:18]This week, the dynamic duo of Kairen Pots and Scott Wabano join us in studio.

[00:00:23]They are the co-hosts for the new APN series Reservations for Two. both rising to fame, each in their own way on social media.

[00:00:31]Kairen is a proud Nakota Sue from Treaty 6. He's a model, actor, and comedian.

[00:00:36]Kai often advocates for indiger youth and those in the child welfare system.

[00:00:42]Scott is a two spirit cre from the Mashki Gowok and EU Ishgi territories along the James Bay. They are known for telling their traditional stories within their fashion designs. Scott often speaks about the stigmas that the 2SLGBTQ community often faces. Together, the two also host their own project called the Rank Podcast.

[00:01:03]Thank you both for being here. Um, I guess tell us a little bit about how Reservations for Two came to reality.

[00:01:10]Let's start with you, Ky.

[00:01:11]>> Okay, so a lot of people think that this is our show. Um, even though we're the faces of the show and we're the hosts, we actually had to audition.

[00:01:17]>> Yeah.

[00:01:18]>> Yeah. We got reached out to because we host a podcast called the Real Rank Podcast, which we love so much. And shout out to all our Real Rank cousins who are listening. Um, but yeah, we started the podcast and had such uh I want to say shocking, but not really shocking cuz we put in a ton of work, but like kind of shocking success with it.

[00:01:36]>> I mean, I wasn't surprised.

[00:01:39]It's something that I feel like we really needed in Indian country, you know, like I feel like the podcast was really just proof of that and people wanted to see more authenticity, you know, which the real rank podcast really does kind of bring and speaking about these t uh different topics of conversation and but speaking about it in like a more light-hearted and a way you would kind of speak to it like with your cousin or like with your auntie, you know? So, I always think of those people out there who are like living away from home or living away from communities who miss their families, miss their cousins, miss hanging out with their aunties, and they could just put on our podcast and just laugh with us.

[00:02:16]>> And I must admit, I'm I'm honestly fanirling here right now, but you know, and I've also got to watch a few shows um of reservations for two. I auntie laughed, you know, and I've also cringed a bit, but now I won't be a ruiner here and spill the tea, but it's definitely got content for everyone, no matter their dating preference, I guess. Can you tell us why that representation is so important?

[00:02:37]>> It's important because indigenous love needs to be showcased and it needs to be showcased in all its forms. And I feel like historically uh many of these uh film and media outlets have really done a they've had almost a mission to make it look like indigenous couples and indigenous love is toxic. And there's kind of this like meme almost where like oh we beat each other up, we get drunk together, we do this, none of us get married, we all just fight, have kids and leave them. And like that's such a it's honestly like very harmful and super damaging to who we are as people because it's so beautiful. Snagging and shacking up and even punching is sacred.

[00:03:16]>> It's sacred. We love it and we should be celebrating it. And why aren't we doing that in an authentic way and letting indigenous people do that themselves?

[00:03:22]>> Yes, I completely agree.

[00:03:24]>> I guess Scott, season 1 was done here in Winnipeg. Um can you share your most favorite moment with us and the takeaway you got from that experience?

[00:03:32]There were a lot of different moments. I actually fell in love with Winnipeg while we were here filming. You know, there was so much beautiful things that we were able to kind of check out. We were able to be more acquainted with the city. Uh getting to meet new friends and new cousins, of course. Uh it was really fun. Without giving too much away, there's like this one literally thing that happened on the show, and I don't want to like spoil it for y'all, but me and Kai were literally gagged. Like jaws dropped, mouth open. Like and I remember like asking production being like, "Did you guys like set this up? Like what's going on here?" Like it was just a crazy situation, but it was also like in the back of my mind I was like, "This is going to be good TV. This is going to be good TV." Um, but yes, it was a lot of funny moments, a lot of heartfelt moments, uh, a lot of cringe moments as well, but just >> a lot of emotions definitely, for sure.

[00:04:26]>> I mean, I guess that's kind of on a first date usually anyway, right? So I guess you know uh we all want to know was there Indian medicine? You know I'm kind of halfkitting here but um what was it like playing Cupid?

[00:04:39]>> Yeah. Um it felt natural.

[00:04:41]>> Yeah it felt natural.

[00:04:42]>> It it was a part of reclamation. You know two spirit people used to be people like matchmakers back in the day you know and a lot of different first nation communities and arranging marriages and stuff like that. So it was almost like Yeah. like an act of reclamation, an act of decolonization and just >> we were reclaiming our roles. Yes. Yes.

[00:05:00]Yes. Exactly.

[00:05:02]>> Uh so enough self-promotion here as APN.

[00:05:04]Let's get the juicy stuff. The Real Rank podcast. You both do it together. Tell us how did we end up here?

[00:05:11]>> Frick. Well, >> I I honestly don't even know.

[00:05:15]>> It was just a lot of um us sitting together giggling and honestly a lot of people giving us feedback about like, "Wow, you guys are so funny together.

[00:05:23]Wow, we love we could just listen to you guys talk for hours." And I'm like, "We'll do it then." Yeah.

[00:05:29]Well, come listen to our podcast. And so we just looked at each other and we were like, should we make a podcast? Because we know the world does not need another in another um sishat man with a podcast mic. We don't need that anymore. So why don't you give two two spirit people a mic and let's figure that out. And so we just kind of did it. And um >> I think it's been what it's like one year ann,000 downloads to the podcast. Top 30 in Canada. crazy because I don't know if there's any indigenous podcasts that have even made the top 200. And so for us, we don't take that lightly. That's obviously like a big deal. And it really I think affirms to us that two spirit voices need to be heard.

[00:06:09]>> Exactly. And it's wanted.

[00:06:11]>> Of course, it's there's a need for it.

[00:06:12]And so people are like asking us to do it. And I really um I'm really just proud that we get to be authentically ourselves. When you listen to our podcast, we're almost like too vulnerable a little bit. almost too real. A little bit too rank at sometimes, which I always tell people, I'm like, I'm real. He's rank.

[00:06:32]>> Hey, real rank. It works.

[00:06:34]>> Um, and a reminder here that this is a daytime show, but some of the topics are really racy, but um, you know, you both have this nuance about you where you're able to navigate through what most won't talk about because it's either too uncomfortable for them or sometimes, you know, you're shunned to talk about it.

[00:06:50]Um, I guess my question then is how have you learned to finesse this skill?

[00:06:56]>> Well, I actually went to school for radio broadcasting once upon a time. So, I feel like this was definitely something that I studied and I learned.

[00:07:04]And I just feel like with the chemistry and the relationship Kai and I have like it's just it's just so easy, you know?

[00:07:11]It's just so easy to be with the u just to talk about different topics and be open about it too cuz it's literally just talking to my best friend, you know. and you are the most vulnerable with your best friend. You guys talk about anything and everything. And the fact that we're able to kind of show that in a more public spotlight like like the Real Rank podcast, um which is special, you know, and it just goes to show that um people have these conversations. They're ready to join in on these conversations and they're conversations that need to happen within our communities, I think.

[00:07:41]>> And you guys have kind of grown together, too over the years, like you guys both moved to the Big Smoke and, you know, kind of made it work.

[00:07:47]>> Humble beginnings.

[00:07:49]sleeping sleeping on a cot with $200 in my bank.

[00:07:52]>> Literally, there was like three of us in a one-bedroom apartment in in Toronto trying to figure out how we were going to eat.

[00:08:00]>> Like literally trading like I would be like, "You buy the haircuts this week, I'll get the groceries next week." Very that. And so people are like, "Oh, you guys are like rich." And I'm like, "I was homeless. Like I came from nothing.

[00:08:11]Like orphaned when I was a young age."

[00:08:13]And so growing up like that and having that trauma I think is almost like a superpower when it comes to like comedy and being able to storytell because >> I can't not speak from a place that's authentic because we've experienced such trauma that um it's I always say not enough to kill us just enough to make us a little bit funny. And so that's kind of like what it is and it's exactly what Scott said. Speaking with your cousins is medicine. It's healing. like we go back to our communities and who's the person that we sit with and we just yap all day with our cousins and we've been getting so many messages from our followers which we've kind of affectionately named our cousins.

[00:08:50]>> Um but they they write to us and they're like every single time I listen to you guys it's like I'm listening to my cousins and I find myself even speaking at you and like responding to you when I'm listening and I laugh out loud.

[00:09:02]People think I'm crazy at work cuz I'm laughing and it's like that's what I want. That's literally >> we always say we have medicine is laughter and that's something that we carry in our medicine chest.

[00:09:13]>> Absolutely. You know and I have somewhat of a serious question now here and you guys talked about a little bit your besties. Um you know but you've also made your own stardom separately and I like that you've become besties but I'm just curious here. You know sometimes people try to put us in this pot as an indigenous people. Do you feel like sometimes people try to pit you guys against one another?

[00:09:32]>> They think we're hooking up. I feel like it's the opposite.

[00:09:37]They just think we're together.

[00:09:39]How long have you guys been dating?

[00:09:42]>> Um, pit each other against each other.

[00:09:44]Not really.

[00:09:45]>> Never. Cuz I don't think that could ever happen.

[00:09:48]>> Kind of. And like honestly, we're in Even though we are we did kind of have our own like separate come-ups um in very separate ways. Like I was I was doing what I'm doing. I do writing um comedy and I'm like in film and media.

[00:10:01]He's very fashion, makeup, art. And so I I don't know if people want us to compete.

[00:10:08]>> Yeah.

[00:10:08]>> I don't think we could.

[00:10:09]>> I don't think we could. We're just >> also I'm scared of him.

[00:10:15]>> You have the upper hand.

[00:10:17]>> I do a couple tricks.

[00:10:21]>> Um you know, it looks like I I want to keep talking here, but it looks like it's time for a break. And when we come back, we're actually going to do something a little bit different on Face to Face. We'll flip a coin here in a minute and we'll bring back just one of you for this next segment and uno reversal for the final block. So, our audience gets a little bit of one-on-one time with each of you. BRB.

[00:10:52]Welcome back to Face to Face. Joining us for this segment is Kairen Pototts. Kai, you often share stories of mental health and wellness within your motivational speaking engagements. Can you share with us why this is so important for you?

[00:11:04]>> Honestly, indigenous youth are at the forefront of what I do because we were all an indigenous youth at one point and we understand all too well just how hard that can be sometimes. It sometimes feels like the system is rigged against us. And when I was growing up, I loved watching YouTube and I loved watching like Shane Dawson and Naiga and all these like amazing creators. Michelle fan. But I realized I was like, where's all the native people?

[00:11:29]>> Do we even exist? Where where are we?

[00:11:31]How come we're not in like mainstream film and media? And so growing up, I kind of always wanted to be somebody that I could look up to, and I feel like I've kind of done that now. Like I wanted somebody like me doing that kind of content when I was growing up. So that's why it's so important.

[00:11:45]>> Awesome. And I guess um you know, you talked about it there in the first block, but you've also spoke out about the child and family services system and kids in care. you have somewhat of a personal story yourself attached to why advocacy on this topic came easy for you. Can you help our audience get a better understanding of your upbringing?

[00:12:02]>> Yeah. So, I had I had a bit of an arduous upbringing in the sense that um I didn't have a father growing up. He left before I was born and my mom passed when I was seven and she passed from uh complications with addictions. And so growing up as an orphan, uh being in the system for 23 years, I was in child and family services for 23 years. And that the ones who know kind of know what kind of life that is. It's a lot of moving around. It's a lot of new families. It's a lot of like trying to find mom and dad in different people.

[00:12:34]>> Mh.

[00:12:34]>> And that does a toll on you, you know.

[00:12:36]And so, uh, a lot of the humor and a lot of the advocacy that I do speaks directly to that and is really trying to combat the harm that comes from growing up in a family that's not yours. I didn't even know I was indigenous until I was 7 years old.

[00:12:49]>> Like, it's hard to go through things like that. I was really blessed that my family adopted me back into the family.

[00:12:56]So, I was actually adopted by my auntie and uh, unfortunately, she passed when I was 17 and I was living on the streets at that time. And so to live to live in shelters and to live houseless as a young person who's queer, who's going through all these identity crises um that really uh I don't know if you ever really get over that. I think the the nature of trauma sometimes it doesn't heal, >> but we just find ways to like manage it, right? And uh content creation and doing what I do now really helps me to manage it and helps me to stay smiling and have a great time. And I'm really glad that I can use that story and kind of turn it into something.

[00:13:32]>> And I guess when you talk the more you talk about it, I guess a it gets a little bit easier.

[00:13:37]>> Yeah. I think that when you when you shine a bright white hot spotlight on things that make you feel shame and embarrassment and pain, uh it definitely takes that power away because shame thrives in pain. And I think that we need to always be talking about it and sometimes it's not easy to talk about which is why we put it on a podcast >> and then we turn it into jokes sometimes, you know. I just want to thank you for sharing and I don't just want to end this convo with like opening your trauma and then saying bye, you know. So tell me a secret about Scott and maybe I'll tell you one about Dennis Ward, the real host of this face to face.

[00:14:11]>> Oh my god. Okay. Well, a secret about Scott Wabo. H Did you know he's actually a lizard?

[00:14:17]>> A lizard?

[00:14:18]>> Yeah. Mhm. That's how come his tongue goes all the time. People are like, "Is he real?" He's not real. That's actually a lesbian.

[00:14:27]>> All jokes aside though, um I can't stop laughing here. All jokes aside, um you know, you've kind of done it all.

[00:14:34]Motivational speaking, acting, modeling, hosting. Now, I guess what's next for Kai?

[00:14:39]>> Okay. Well, you're going to see me on the big screen very soon, which is super exciting. Um but I want more than anything to be behind the scenes. I don't actually like being on camera and doing all that stuff. I my my true passion lies in storytelling and that means writing and directing. So hopefully, fingers crossed, pray for me guys, that I'm going to have my first ever feature film or series on the big screen.

[00:15:02]>> Yes. Manifest it. And I guess some of that writing, like what kind of what types of writing? There's so many kinds.

[00:15:07]What what's your >> I love romance.

[00:15:10]>> I love falling in love. I love talking about love. I love the the butterflies you get when you first find someone you like. And I feel like we don't talk about it enough, especially in Indian country. I really want us to showcase indigenous love, which is maybe why I'm on this show. Like >> I love talking about love, but um I want to tell two spirit stories or indiger stories of people falling in love because that's what I needed when I was younger. I need somebody to be like, look, >> the people that you like, that's normal.

[00:15:36]That's natural and it's beautiful and it deserves to be celebrated.

[00:15:39]>> Definitely. And then you brought it up in the beginning there where you were like, you know, it's almost shun to talk about or that we're these toxic people.

[00:15:46]Yeah, 100%. And and and if you think about it, even so, as indigenous people, it's already considered toxic, but then you look at queer people and it's like, oh, well, that shouldn't you guys shouldn't even be dating. You shouldn't be doing that stuff. You need to be in the shadows, you know? And I grew up watching all of my cousins get boyfriends and girlfriends and go on their first dates and snag and kiss and do all those things. I never got those experiences. And I know every single queer indigenous person out there probably didn't get those experiences either because it was like, ew.

[00:16:15]and how heartbreaking, you know.

[00:16:17]>> So, I want to tell stories that celebrate that. I want to I want to see two gay indigenous men holding hands at the POW doing laps in the arbor and I wanted to be like, "Oh, look how cute they are."

[00:16:28]>> Let's normalize that.

[00:16:30]>> Right. Absolutely. Uh I just want to thank you, uh, Kai for this great conversation. And that brings us to our last break. Back in a few with Scott Chesa.

[00:16:53]Welcome back to Face to Face. Here's some one-on-one time with Scott Wobino.

[00:16:57]Now, I guess let's start with your fashion journey. How did you get into it and why traditional storytelling became a part of it?

[00:17:05]>> Well, I grew up with fashion, you know, growing up in Moose Factory. Um, it was really hard, especially as a young queer kid. Um, and fashion was kind of used as my escapism, as a way for me to kind of get through the hardships of living in the res, you know. And, um, when I was flipping through these fashion magazines that were available at my local Northern store, kind of crazy, but they were actually available. They're a Cosmopolitan fashion magazine. And I remember I always used to like flip through them and like see all of these like best dress lists and red carpets and being like, "Okay, this is a lot of non not a lot of non-indigenous people, you know. I'm like, where's my aunties?

[00:17:43]Where's my cousins?" You know, because I grew up going to like ceremony and like powos and seeing people just decked out in regalia and bead work and, you know, really wanting to show their best selves. And I was like, fashion really exists heavily is like really heavily inspired within our communities. You know, it's something that we use to tell our stories and we've been doing that since time in memorial. And seeing the mainstream modern fashion industry and seeing the like the non-inclusion of indigenous peoples, you know, I really wanted to change that because we are fashionable people. You know, we our fashion is meaningful. It's sustainable.

[00:18:20]It tells stories and the longevity of it is just amazing, you know. So, I wanted more of that and I wanted the world to to see and experience it more.

[00:18:30]>> Mhm. And that was cute at the beginning there, that little lizard thing. Scott Scott Scott's not lying.

[00:18:37]>> Exposing me. Oh my god.

[00:18:41]>> Um, and you talked about a little bit there, but more about that storytelling and the fashion and how um, you know, that was such a big part of it.

[00:18:50]Yeah. Well, like for long periods of time, you know, we've used beadwork, we use different styles of stitching from different nations and that really kind of um was a way to kind of preserve not only our histories and our family's legacies, but a way to tell stories, you know, and we've always been natural storytellers with our fashion. And unfortunately due to colonization that really removed that you know and people often forget you know that every party everybody is a part of the fashion industry you know whether you actively work in the industry or not everybody's first thought when they wake up is what am I going to wear today you know so they make that conscious decision on what they're going to be telling what brands they're going to be supporting and what kind of message they want to convey with their fashion >> you know um and you talk about that fashion and that spotlight and all of that you know and because of that spotlight you get sometimes get put under the microscope I guess and um you've battled homophobia and had to explain twospirit identity to people I guess do you get tired of having to do this sometimes >> honestly it does get tiring you know having to educate people and remind people you know that my existence is not something to be argued about you know it's something that's been here since time of memorial and I come from a long line of you know indigenous queer individuals who come before me. And it's really important to um remember that especially right now when we're in like this age of reclamation and decolonization, you know, it's really important to remember that two spirit people and digquer people to us LGBTQ people suffered a lot of violence, you know, suffered a lot of bullying and hate um not only from our own communities but from mainstream society as a whole, you know. So, and before all of that, before colonization, you know, we we held respected roles, you know, within our nations. We were seen as matchmakers. We were seen as shamans. We were seen as chiefs. You know, there was different a lot of leadership roles that two spirit people held because of the the power and the energy that we carry.

[00:20:51]And the fact that we're able to kind of balance between two worlds, that feminine, masculine, or that traditional modern. you know, we've always been kind of those in between people that we just kind of are able to kind of just like slither around and really just like, you know, just kind of enter in these spaces and occupy them and, you know, remind people that we're still here. So yeah, it's like it gets it definitely does get tiring especially when I'm like battling like my cousins or like my uncles, you know, like I just recently had a very very harmful experience with one of my family members and that had to, you know, I had to like take boundaries and I had to block and like real and like call my energy back, you know, and sometimes it does get tiring, but I think of the young queer people out there, you know, the young Scots, the young Kai's out there who are growing up in these northern communities who don't have access to resources or don't have access to the same services that I would have, you know, in Toronto or Montreal.

[00:21:47]And I just want to be that representation and I want to provide more services for them. You know, I want to I want them to just be able to live their lives freely and fully in the res and not have to worry about educating.

[00:21:59]They could just exist freely and just live their life.

[00:22:03]>> Absolutely. And that's so powerful, too.

[00:22:05]And just that message, you know, and then speaking of messaging, uh content creation. Mhm.

[00:22:10]>> Uh tell us a little bit about your social media journey um you know and and becoming that content creator.

[00:22:16]>> Well like Kai and I feel like like a lot of indigenous youth growing up in northern communities social media was pretty big you know it was like my form of escapism to kind of connect with other people especially like growing up in this factory like I was very >> um I was not in tune with my identity at the time. So I was very, you know, depressed and very anxious. And I remember feeling very alone most of the times because nobody was really into fashion, you know, in my school. Like there was nobody I could talk to about Paris Fashion Week or New York or John Galliano's show. Like, you know, there were so many different things. And social media was a was a tool for me to be able to kind of uh connect with other individuals under other like-minded individuals across not only in Canada or USA but across the world, you know, and really just made me realize like there is people out there like me, you know, there's people out there who like the same things that I do, you know, and just made me feel like there was a community out there and that just like gave me more motivation and more hope.

[00:23:14]>> You and Kai, you know, you guys helped me through some of my darkest days, too, just watching you guys on social media.

[00:23:19]But I just want to thank you for your time today. Um, you know, and unfortunately we are all out of time here. Thank you for today. And just so you know, I arm wrestled Dennis so I could host the show with y'all today.

[00:23:30]Um, you know, but although face to face isn't as spicy as the rank, the real rank podcast by Scott and Kai. This episode and all others are also available as podcasts. You can find those wherever you download your podcasts. I'm TR Wheatley. Dennis is back in seven more sleeps. August.

[00:23:47]Heat. Heat.