Gambling Took Everything From Me

Added: 2026-05-28

[00:00:00]If they ever find out, I'm just going to end my life. It's simple as that.

[00:00:04]>> Tell us a little bit about the total amount of money that you've wagered in all of your gambling.

[00:00:09]>> That number was north of 40 million. I turned, I think, 3 or $6,000 into almost 600,000 in a couple of weeks. Downside to that is it was gone in four or five days.

[00:00:22]>> Wow.

[00:00:25]Wild, man.

[00:00:25]>> I also was diagnosed with major depression. I had no idea that I was dealing with that. I wasn't sleeping. I lost like 30 pounds and I was gambling this whole time. So, I felt so shitty about what I was doing, about my decision-m, about my life, about myself.

[00:00:44]I mean, Drake is the one of the biggest gambling streamers ever.

[00:00:49]>> Some of the most creative creators in the planet are partnering with these books to make the best content. And so, that's also incredibly problematic, too.

[00:00:56]I used to hope like every day on the way home that somebody would blow through a red light and t-bone me. Today we're speaking with Joe at Winning Without Wagers who has himself placed bets in excess of $40 million. It all started with a $500 bet. Fast forward and that turned into betting all day, every day, and on anything that he could find.

[00:01:18]We're talking NFL games, NBA and soccer, but also table tennis and Turkish women's basketball. At one point, Joe turned a few thousand dollars into more than half a million dollars within weeks and lost it all within days. But this is not just a story about money. It's about brain chemistry, dopamine, depression, and isolation, and how something that doesn't look like a substance can become just as addictive as one, and without the same safeguards that come in place with a substance addiction. Joe opens up about what it really feels like on the inside. The lies, the double life, the shame, and the moment that everything finally came crashing down. Let's dive in. Joe, how's it going?

[00:01:55]>> Doing well. Friday, almost the afternoon, end of the week, warming up in Chicago. Can't complain.

[00:02:01]>> Love it, man. Love it. Yeah, it's warming up here in Toronto, too. So, this will be a great conversation and a great episode. I'm excited to chop it up with you, man.

[00:02:07]>> Yep.

[00:02:07]>> Thanks for having me.

[00:02:08]>> Time.

[00:02:09]>> Fantastic.

[00:02:09]>> Appreciate it.

[00:02:11]Joe, tell us a little bit about the total amount of money that you've wagered in uh in your career or in all of your gambling.

[00:02:24]>> I don't know if I want to even call it a career. It was uh >> tried to catch >> No, no, you're good. Um I've never actually tallied it up completely. I used a lot of different apps over the years and when I first started gambling it was not legal in the US yet or at least not in Illinois. So um I was using bookies and I don't really want to get back in touch with those guys and ask them for my numbers. So I've only looked at DraftKings which is where I did a majority of the gambling anyways.

[00:02:56]And uh that number was north of 40 million which is insane. I mean, if we were to add all of it up, I'm sure it would probably be close to double across all the apps, but um and I never even looked at that number until a couple months back. And it was done over a like six to eight month period or a large majority of it, I should say.

[00:03:22]>> How did you get access to that much money to bet? You must have been winning some of the some of it.

[00:03:28]>> Well, when you pretty much never cash out. Yeah. you're you're gambling until it's zero. Um I mean I think a big a big chunk of that probably came from one of the pretty crazy runs I had where I turned I think3 or $6,000 into almost $600,000 in a couple of weeks. Um downside to that is it was gone in four or five days. So, it's uh it adds up really quickly when you're betting pretty much the second you wake up until you go to bed and then while you're sleeping you have some other bets going on.

[00:04:07]>> Wild, man. Joe, talk to us about where it all started. When was the first time that you can remember placing a bet?

[00:04:17]I don't know what age I was, but um probably 23, 24. And you know, going back to the early stages of my gambling, I'd go to the casino every now and then.

[00:04:31]Like, never was an issue. Um and a a buddy of mine introduced me to my first bookie, and like most people, it was pretty controlled early on. I mean, I was young, working a commission-based job where losing $50 felt like the end of the world, and then you start winning a little bit of money. N, all right, I'm going to take a a shot at this one. I'm going to take a swing. Like, my first big bet I ever made was on a two team college football parlay. It was a $500 bet and uh it hit. And that wasn't, you know, the turning point for me in terms of like now we're going off the rails and and betting crazily, but it was a progression. Started to make a little bit more and I'm betting a little bit more. And now I'm dealing with bookies where you're settling every week. And so then you start to think about, well, you know, this guy isn't in the mafia or anything. Like he's not going to come break my kneecaps if I pay late or pay slow. So instead of just paying him and not gambling for a couple of weeks, I'd go find a new bookie, try and win it back on him, pay the other person off.

[00:05:43]So there was a lot of robbing Peter to pay Paul. And there those are the little things that I recognized early on, you know what, that's that's probably not a good thing, right? It's probably not a good thing that I'm going to somebody else to try and win back my losses. But you start to justify it. It's, well, I only did it one time. You know that, this is a dumb analogy, but if you go out to the bars and you wake up the next morning and you check your bank statement and you're like, "Dang, I spent way too much money last night." Where it's not enough where you're in financial trouble, but you just overextended yourself a little bit.

[00:06:22]That was my justification. I didn't create any financial issues early on. I just went a little too far. It happens to the best of us. I won't do it again.

[00:06:32]until next weekend.

[00:06:34]>> And then how does it evolve to the point where you're betting on the weekends to then betting a lot more frequently?

[00:06:43]Where does that ramp up?

[00:06:46]It's a good question because I I think I pretty much was gambling every day from the start of it, but at that point I was only gambling on, you know, your typical US sports, NFL, NBA, baseball, college basketball, all of that stuff. So that stuff's on every single night.

[00:07:05]>> And when you also love watching sports, it makes a lot easier to gamble on, you know, Eastern Kentucky versus Weber State and basketball. Like why would anybody bet that? You shouldn't. So ultimately what would happen is if you remember how a bookie works, right? I have to settle up with him on Monday.

[00:07:27]Well, if I go into the weekend up, I know I have a couple of days where I have some money to play with. I have a little extra bankroll. Let's try and turn this,000 into 5,000 in 3 days because I know in the back of my head I'm down overall.

[00:07:43]And then conversely, if I'm down going into the weekend, it becomes, okay, I have to turn this 500 into 2,000 so that I don't have to pay him any money on on uh Monday, but there's certain points of the year where, you know, in May and well, let's just say like late summer, right? Pretty much the only pro sport that's going on before football starts is baseball.

[00:08:10]So now I have to find other things to gamble on and that's where I started betting on soccer.

[00:08:18]Well, soccer started mainly during COVID because that was the only thing that you could bet on pretty much. Um, but there's only so many games on a Sunday in baseball. And if I need to turn that into something, then I'm going to find whatever live game I can, whether that is pingpong or I guess table tennis, right? uh actual tennis, European basketball. I've gambled on Turkish women's basketball, which is insane to me that DraftKings even offers lines for that, but they do. Um, so then it and then it spirals, right? If I lose, then it's the next week, how do I win it back? If I'm up, well, I think I'm still down overall. So, how do I turn this into something pretty quickly? And so when you're betting on something like Turkish women's basketball, like obviously was that a moment for you where you realize like I this is a serious compulsion >> that admittedly I never did any of that until like towards the end of my gambling days and I was in so deep at that point where I knew all of this stuff was an issue but I didn't know how to get out of it.

[00:09:27]>> Got it.

[00:09:28]>> I had no clue what to do, how to stop.

[00:09:30]And when you have massive swings where I turn a small amount into six figures and that wasn't the only time that I did that. That was just the biggest one.

[00:09:41]But you still know you're down. What are you supposed to do? Now, the other aspect to that is I didn't know any of this until um after I was done gambling, but I also was diagnosed with major depression. I had no idea that I was dealing with that. I wasn't sleeping. I lost like 30 pounds in a year without, you know, it wasn't on purpose. I just wasn't eating.

[00:10:08]Appetite was gone and I was gambling this whole time. So, I effectively was self-medicating with gambling without even knowing it because I've been gambling for, you know, my entire adult life. Mhm.

[00:10:23]>> I don't know what came first, chicken or the egg kind of conversation there, but I know that putting both of those together is like this massive pressure cooker and it does not mix and it's only a matter of time before that thing blows up.

[00:10:36]>> That's that's tough.

[00:10:39]And the idea of gambling as a substance is something that continuously comes up on the podcast. And like you said, self-medicating with gambling and that is can you talk a little bit more about the effects that gambling had on you that could have potentially tied into that depression and why that's such a dangerous combo?

[00:11:03]>> That's a deep question. Um because a lot goes into it. And I think like when I was in the thick of it, I didn't look at it as self-medicating. I didn't look at it as a problem early on because it's like I know I'm not, you know, drinking.

[00:11:18]This isn't a drinking problem. It's not a drug problem. I'm not ingesting any substances. So, how can I actually become addicted to this?

[00:11:26]After the fact, you learn about this thing called dopamine.

[00:11:30]And dopamine is one hell of a drug when you don't know what it is and you don't know what it's doing to your body. So, I knew that if I was stressed out and I was gambling, I would feel better, but I didn't know what was going on chemically. I just knew that mentally it felt better because I was able to focus specifically on that game and pay attention to it and be totally locked in. I didn't realize that I was literally making myself feel better.

[00:12:00]And then just like with any drug, you build up tolerance and you need more of it and you need it more often. And I think that's really how it turns from entertainment into something that's a problem, especially when you don't know about dopamine.

[00:12:16]>> Yeah. I think that's the biggest thing right is that there's so many things that are happening in our body that uh it doesn't take necessarily a substance being consumed for that to be triggered in your body but it has a similar kind of impact to what a substance could do.

[00:12:29]So then when you're going through all this at what point do you say like I I need help and what does that process look like?

[00:12:42]I uh admittedly, and I can only speak for myself, I never went to somebody and said I needed help.

[00:12:49]>> Okay?

[00:12:51]>> I got found out. Family figured out what was going on.

[00:12:56]And the other aspect to that is this becomes so isolating.

[00:13:02]There's internal like crazy shame. I was dealing with suicide ideiation, which I didn't know what that was at that point.

[00:13:11]So, I don't want to and taking that a step further, right? Male stigma of I asking for help. That's a huge thing. I also was the type of person that kind of leans on myself if I get in a jam or whatever. Like, I'll figure it out.

[00:13:31]And I was also a sports guy growing up, like played college sports. You don't ask for help, you just work harder.

[00:13:39]So, I couldn't mentally bring myself to go to somebody to ask for help. And I, in fact, I remember having a conversation with uh my parents at one point and just being like kind of wishy-washy of something's off. And it felt like I actually told them every detail of it, but they really had no idea.

[00:14:00]>> Like that was enough for me to feel like I actually asked for help and then I'm wondering why I'm not getting any better. So, um, ultimately, you know, there's a couple of things that happened and as I think back to the story, I got the reassurance from family like they could have cut me off. They could have said they're done with me. I know that I hurt them with the lies and moving money around and just like it it it's betrayal, right?

[00:14:31]So, my thought was always going to be this prior to anybody knowing. If they ever find out, I'm just going to end my life.

[00:14:43]It's simple as that. Because I know in my head, you catastrophize a little bit and think there's no way they're going to accept me or show love or, you know, they're going to want nothing to do with me. And if I don't have my family around, then what's the point of being here? because I already hate myself.

[00:15:01]>> I have negative selft talk every single day of, >> you know, brushing my teeth thinking you're the biggest piece of [ __ ] ever.

[00:15:09]>> And those are real thoughts. Like I vividly remember telling myself that.

[00:15:15]So when I got the reassurance from them of we need to get you some help and they actually circled the wagons instead of like ostracizing me that made all the difference >> when they came to you like was it the first time where they just said we know we're dealing with this now or had they said things a few times before it got to that point?

[00:15:40]>> They had no idea. I mean they knew I gambled. Everybody knew I gambled. I mean my all my f everybody gamles it feels like you know I >> don't know a single person who doesn't >> shouldn't say that that's you know overgeneralizing but it is so prominent among my friends and friend group and even if they only occasionally do it. So me gambling well yeah that everybody's doing it but nobody knew the extent because I was even though you know I could barely afford rent um taking out loans left and right on the outside everything looked normal.

[00:16:22]I was functioning. I showed up to work.

[00:16:24]I didn't miss anything. I was doing well.

[00:16:29]Why would anybody think twice now? I also was lying my face off like nobody knew that I was betting let's say $10,000 on this game when everybody else is betting 50. Like we used to talk about units all the time, right? So, oh this is going to be a five unit game.

[00:16:48]Great. I'm in.

[00:16:51]Nobody knew what my units were though.

[00:16:53]>> I knew what my friends were. So, if we're both betting five units and he bets $10 a unit, he's got 50 bucks on the game, I have 5,000. He's none the wiser about how crazy this actually is.

[00:17:10]Was that something that in in the moment you're thinking about? Was there like a like for me, I could imagine if if that were me, I'd be like, "Oh, I'm I'm been big on this and these guys are just playing little little ball." Like, was any of that a part of the way that you were thinking about your relationships with your friends or how you were looking at all of that?

[00:17:33]I mean, there's a little bit of like if one of them lost their bet and was all pissed off about it. I'm like, "Buddy, if only you knew.

[00:17:45]If only you knew." Right? So, um, but I don't think it was a a conscious decision to be like, I want to go lie to these people about what's going on >> because yeah, I mean, it's a totally different experience even though you guys are having a similar kind of experience. So, it's interesting to see that that's happening in >> in that time. Right.

[00:18:12]>> Right. And if you take that even a little bit more deeper, like I was never the person that would react super negatively to losing a bet. Because if I went off the walls, you know, like you've probably seen viral videos of like a guy smashing a TV after losing a bet, right? Um, if I did that, then people would ask questions. M >> why are you so angry about losing $50?

[00:18:38]Because that's what I always would tell people like oh if you're up I yeah I won 50 bucks this weekend or 100 and I was also smart enough which isn't always a good thing to say that I would lose money too because if I always won then people would ask questions so it was always you know I'm plus or minus 50 bucks or I'm about even or whatever.

[00:19:02]So, so you never bragged about the massive wins either?

[00:19:07]>> Interesting.

[00:19:08]>> Unless like it, you know, maybe if I hit a parlay or something, then I might have thrown that one out there because why not? But, um, and I never really told people what I was betting on.

[00:19:22]>> Is that because you didn't want them to bet on it too or what was the >> Well, I didn't want them if if Let me rephrase that. If it was, you know, a Monday night football game and I want to take the Packard, yeah, sure. I' I'd talk about that. But I wasn't going to tell them about Turkish women's basketball or Icelandic basketball or any of that stuff.

[00:19:42]>> That's true.

[00:19:42]>> Um because again, too many questions.

[00:19:45]Like everything about this disease is how can I protect the one thing that is ultimately hurting me the most.

[00:19:55]>> Mhm.

[00:19:56]>> Which is such a weird way to think about all of that because you know it's hurting you. You just don't know how to get out of it, but you also want to protect it.

[00:20:07]>> That's a super super powerful statement there. Um, can you talk about some of the aspects of like I think you've talked a little bit about borrowing money from people and like going down that rabbit hole. What what were the logistics of some of that? How did that look like as far as you've got a problem uh you're trying to feed it and you're running out of resources to do it? And and you also I've heard you say that you were able to be really good with your money in order to fund this habit, right? So you're you're very conscious of your finances, but only in service of this habit.

[00:20:50]>> Well, that that's the thing, right?

[00:20:52]Every additional dollar went to gambling. So I had to be on top of it in that sense. But when it came to borrowing money, it this is where it gets a little kind of dark in a way.

[00:21:09]If I ask somebody to borrow money, obviously I'm not saying, "Hey, can I borrow $300 to go gamble?"

[00:21:16]It is I need $300 to pay my credit card >> because I messed up. like I made a mistake and I didn't budget properly for this month or work's going a little tough, my commission's super light.

[00:21:32]The crazy part about it and why I say this gets a little dark is because internally I believe that lie myself.

[00:21:40]Like I wasn't willing to admit to myself that no, no, no, no. You you don't have money right now because work isn't going well. You don't have money right now because you are gambling every second of every day. And every extra dollar that isn't going towards fixed expenses like a rent or a car payment is from gambling.

[00:22:03]So it like I I was able to believe that which also is really just a justification for me to gamble more and also again protecting the one thing that I don't want anybody else to find out about because in my head at some point I was going to have some run and gamble my way out of it which again like in what world does getting into all of this it all of these issues from gambling in what world is gambling going to get you out of it but you believe that >> yeah I thought I was going to ask next was do you think there ever would have been a number where you would have ever stopped >> no when I had that huge run um I actually it's kind of a ridiculous story I knew what would happen I knew that I would lose that and I knew that the run would end, right? So, at the end of that day, I was going to go tell a buddy to be like, "Here's my login. Change this password. Do not tell me what it is."

[00:23:18]And then I place like one more big decent sized bet and then that was going to be it.

[00:23:25]I never ended up having that conversation with my buddy. Like I took out 300 grand.

[00:23:32]It's going to cover all of the debts and have money to live and then leave the additional money in there. And I thought to myself like if I have this much money in there, I will never have to make another another deposit to a sports book. Like that will last me a lifetime.

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[00:24:52]>> And uh again, I didn't have that conversation with my friend. Lost a couple of bets and next thing you know, it's it's gone in a couple of days because again, I couldn't stop after that point because I knew I was still down overall.

[00:25:07]>> So, I never really got back to even. And again, like talking about a number, it's never really about the number cuz it's it's giving you a feeling. Like there are times early on where I probably got back to even and I didn't stop. Because at that point, the thought process now becomes, "Oh [ __ ] I got back to even. I've figured out this gambling thing. I know how to consistently win. So, this time I'm gonna set rules for myself like one bet a day or trying to think of some of the other dumb ones. Um, a win loss limit only betting on the top 25 college basketball teams because that's a little bit more predictable than the Eastern Kentucky versus Weber State game because there's, you know, 150 college basketball games on a Saturday.

[00:26:04]So you stick to those rules for a day or two and then either they don't go well cuz you lost your bets. So now you need to get back into that cycle of bet on anything and everything to try and win it back or life gets in the way of I didn't make a sale or somebody cut me off on the road so now I'm pissed off and I'm going to gamble. M >> so it ultimately everything just comes down to justification. You will justify it by any means. But I don't think overall like whether that run was all winnings. I don't think I would have stopped.

[00:26:46]>> So your your parents didn't know until they knew. But did the people around you like your friends or even other people that you talked about gambling with like would they have selfidentified as having a problem? Did they know that you had a problem?

[00:26:58]>> Nobody knew. I I think there's a couple of people that I know that I would probably argue they have problems with it. Um but they keep things financially in check. Mhm.

[00:27:14]>> And I think there's one person ever actually called me out on like I think this is a gambling issue cuz I had asked to borrow money and it was probably the third time I'd gone to him um over a couple years period and he kind of knew what I made at work.

[00:27:34]>> But then again, he just kind of doubled down on the lie. Like it's the classic deny deny until you die sort of thing.

[00:27:41]So, um, and again, like you you feel terrible about lying about all that stuff, like literally, and that plays into all of the shame and the addiction and spiraling and and everything along those lines. But when you mentally justify it as I'm asking for money because I need it not because I'm going to deposit that on DraftKings right away. So like I'm really borrowing because I really need to borrow, not realizing why I needed to borrow in the first place.

[00:28:20]>> Yeah. I guess just mentally it it feels different and so the action's different.

[00:28:28]Yeah. When you attach meaning to something, you can probably justify about anything. Yeah.

[00:28:35]>> And when you like going into a little bit more of the mental health side of things, when you frankly don't care if you live or die, like you're you what what do I care if I ask this person for money? I don't care if I make it to tomorrow.

[00:28:54]Because when I'm driving home, like I used to whip around a little moped in the city. Um, I used to hope like every day on the way home that somebody would blow through a red light and t-bone me.

[00:29:08]>> Not because um, well, I should say because like I felt so shitty about what I was doing, about my decision- making, about my life, about myself.

[00:29:23]And admittedly, like I I didn't want to die, per se, but I also didn't have the will to live. So, I didn't care what would happen. I didn't care if some like please hit me.

[00:29:37]But again, that all goes into mental health. Like, if I look at that or I looked at it as I'm just stressed out at work or I'm just stressed out with life. No different than thinking after a bad day at work like somebody venting and being like, "Will you just shoot me, please?" You know what I mean? Like I'm sure you guys have said something like that after a crappy day.

[00:30:00]But there's a drastic difference between will somebody just shoot me please because I had a bad day versus I hope somebody actually hits me with their car and ends my life. Because I knew I wasn't really going to ever do that myself. I don't think I would have had the guts to. Um, but in the heat of it, it's I want to take this to my grave because I don't want my family or anybody else that I know to know the real story. Because if they know the real story, they'll think differently of me in comparison to this image that they might have that I'm happy golucky, even kill, successful in my job, you know, a good dad, a good husband, like all of that. I didn't want to ruin that. So, I would rather not deal with it.

[00:30:53]Can you talk a little bit more about >> that isolation in terms of >> what are I mean that was a big piece of the thoughts that are going through your head is if you get found out the perception of who you are changes >> right um >> did you was there any point where you just realized that you had no resources and then when you did realize that you needed to make a change. What were the actual steps?

[00:31:28]>> Trying to think of how to best articulate all of that because I think when it comes to gambling, a a lot of people look at it as what's the solution? Like how do you stop?

[00:31:42]And there is no single solution. There's a lot of trial and error there. This isn't spraining your ankle and I know that I need to take Advil.

[00:31:51]some stuff works better for others, some doesn't. So, when I had that revelation, it didn't really happen until I got into therapy and treatment.

[00:32:02]Um, and also once my family knew like this full secret, cuz once that came out, like there was a saying in treatment that our secrets keep us sick. And I love that because once that secret was like was out, this was just a huge weight lifted off my shoulders.

[00:32:24]And mentally, I had to be at the acceptance of I'm not free from the consequences of the secret coming out, which meant rebuilding trust, knowing that it's going to take years to get back on track financially and kind of rebuild myself.

[00:32:43]Um but that all started coming out once I went to treatment. So in terms of that process, I went to an impatient center for um about 4 weeks, which I think ultimately saved my life because it took me out of a situation where I didn't have to worry about finances and bills and fatherhood and working. And I just was able to like really focus on myself and do a deep dive into who I was, who I wanted to be, and where I wanted to go.

[00:33:20]And after that, I did four, no, I'm sorry, six weeks at like a step down thing treatment wise, and then another six weeks at they call it IOP here in the States. Um, so you're just doing like therapy a couple hours a day.

[00:33:39]And um, that was like the let's get you out of crisis mode treatment. It didn't stop there. So after I was done with all of that, I still had a regular therapist that I met with a couple times a week, somebody who is more focused on gambling, gamblers anonymous a couple times a week. So, I still was pretty much doing some form of therapy every single day from that point from April 16th, 2024 up until now. Like I I've toned it back a little bit. I think posting on social media is like its own form of therapy and talking to people and sharing my story and whatnot, but um once I got to that stage, I didn't I I I know who I am. I know what my identity is and it's not gambling anymore.

[00:34:30]I have more things to work on, bigger fish to fry, more stuff. Like, I don't need to worry about what anybody else thinks of me at this stage cuz they already know the worst parts about me and I still have them in my corner.

[00:34:43]>> What did that feel like to not have to carry like the shame or or hiding it all the time? Did you feel lighter, >> dude? In in the first week of going back to impatient, I put on 10 pounds cuz I couldn't stop eating. It was just like this immediate felt better. All of those negative thoughts of suicide ideation like that all went away the second that the seeker was out.

[00:35:12]There is one crazy part to that story though.

[00:35:16]So family finds out on a Thursday, gambled the next day with the last like few bucks that I had cuz in my head it was maybe I can have this, you know, insane run again and that will lighten the burden of all of the other stuff. I think I lost my first bet and it was gone. But um you know that's how crazy it is. I have a conversation telling my family about all these negative thoughts and terrible decisions and then the next day I go right back to it.

[00:35:53]>> If you could talk to yourself while you're in the peak of it all, knowing everything you know now, what would you have said to yourself then?

[00:36:01]>> Um, you're better than this.

[00:36:05]This isn't who you want to be. You have goals, hopes, and dreams. And uh gambling is taking you farther from that than closer because I know in your head right now you probably feel like it's bringing you closer and closer and that's how you justify all of it but it's taking you further away.

[00:36:29]>> That's extremely powerful.

[00:36:33]Joe, when did you make the decision that you wanted to share this with people?

[00:36:39]And what was that process like?

[00:36:43]>> Um, funnily enough, I hated posting on social media until like I started doing all of this. I was never I was always the lurker. I I'd scroll a lot. But um I realized early on in treatment that there's probably a lot more people like me. And admittedly, I was the only person that was there for gambling or that had anything to do with gambling.

[00:37:10]So it took a good 6 months before I was ready to like make my first post. And even when I first started, I didn't want to show my face. I didn't want people to find out from a random clip that I was dealing with this if I knew them.

[00:37:28]And um then I started getting messages from people like, "Thanks for thanks for bringing awareness to this. Like I I struggle with this. How did you stop? My spouse is a you know lost their job because of this." And then it it's like oh there's I don't want to say a market for it, but like there's viewers for this. There's people that are engaging and want to see this and they don't know where to go because none of this is talked about.

[00:37:58]Everything right now on social media, commercials, sports team, it all glorifies gambling or glamorizes it, I should say. There is nothing out there.

[00:38:11]Sorry, there is now. There wasn't really anything out there besides go to therapy and do Gamblers Anonymous.

[00:38:20]So then it kind of turned into like this whole thing. And um I don't know when, but at some point I think working in that space is going to be my career >> cuz it's I've built a lot of cool relationships. I've met some cool people. Like three of us never would have connected through without any of that.

[00:38:42]>> Totally. Everyone we've met in this space has been so unbelievably cool and kind and they really care. Like that's something that's so easy to tell when you hear everyone talk is that like they're aware of the significance of the problem and how like quiet it is relative to how loud the conversation actually should be.

[00:39:02]>> Yep. And it's a hard it's a difficult battle, right? It's um specifically in the US there's no federal funding for it and I think it expanded and blew up way faster than anybody thought it would.

[00:39:18]>> Totally.

[00:39:19]>> And then on the healthc care side there's very few therapists that are trained on this which is why you know I partnered with Burch's Health. It's a really cool company that um all of their therapists are licensed in gambling addiction. And from my experience, I had probably 10 to 12 therapists throughout the course of treatment.

[00:39:43]None of them knew about sports betting.

[00:39:46]They didn't even really know like what DraftKings was because they weren't sports people either. So like again if I feel isolated and I don't do well with opening up and I say I lost my rent money on the Super Bowl when the Eagles and Chiefs played and like your comment is I love Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce and not Isn't it crazy that you could gamble on how many times Taylor Swift was going to be shown on TV or another kind of tummy tongue and cheek example, but if I go tell you I lost my rent money on an eight teamer on the last leg by the hook on a buzzer getting back door on the buzzer beater.

[00:40:36]Like if you guys gamble, you you know exactly what that means. But if I'm saying it to a therapist who doesn't watch sports, they think all of the gambling happens in physical casinos still.

[00:40:46]>> How are they going to help me?

[00:40:49]So they they can't, right? I shouldn't say they can't, but like there's now barrier and friction to that. So the more awareness, the more people we get trained up, the the better this will become. Um, so I I think we're in the very early stages of all of this. I think the problem's going to get significantly worse before it gets better.

[00:41:12]>> 100%. And I think the ability to relate to someone who's trying to work with you through something is so important. And so if if they can't even speak the same language as you that brought you that pain or that experience. Yeah. It's it's difficult to relate to then solve the problem. So if people are looking for something like you're describing, how do they work with Burchches Health or or you or how does that whole thing work?

[00:41:33]>> Yeah, super easy. Just burchchesalth.com.

[00:41:36]Simple and sign up. They'll do a quick call with you and they accept most insurance. Um, so typically people are paying uh $25 at most per session.

[00:41:48]>> Wow.

[00:41:49]>> And it's tellahalth, so it's available in all 50 states.

[00:41:53]>> Amazing.

[00:41:54]>> And here's here's a crazy stat, too. And I don't know if this is still accurate to this day, but um a couple years back in the entire state of Texas, there was only two counselors that were actually certified in treating gambling disorder. the entire state.

[00:42:15]>> So, there's a need for getting people trained up on all of this, too.

[00:42:19]>> No kidding, man. If I could give you a magic wand that would make the changes that you think need to be made across the country or the world to help at least put a dent in the problem, like what are the things that could be done?

[00:42:36]Um, I guess in no particular order because admittedly I like I'm a free market guy for the most part, but >> I don't think that they can be unregulated. And I know they'll say there's some regulation, but um there needs to be more regulation in terms of problem gamblers being able to identify that sooner. M >> there's no reason that DraftKings shouldn't have cut me off when I was going from being like a $50 to $100 a game better to my biggest bet was um I had two massive bets on the Michigan National Championship football game that were six figures.

[00:43:21]Whoa.

[00:43:22]>> Like, and then when you're placing 4050 butts a day, like they need to be able to cut those people out.

[00:43:28]>> Oh, because that'd be so easy to detect algorithmically. Like, that would be so And that should be mandated, >> right? I mean, if you win, they'll cut you off.

[00:43:37]>> Yeah, exactly.

[00:43:38]>> Or they'll limit you. But the losers know, hey, let's get you a VIP host.

[00:43:42]Let's get you gifts. Let's get you on trips. Let's get you tickets to games and concerts.

[00:43:48]I got a Brightling watch. $6,000 set of uh fitted golf clubs.

[00:43:57]Like insane, right? So like they need to treat that the same way that they treat winners. And I understand like you're a business, you're trying to make money, but at what cost?

[00:44:10]>> And they're already making so much money. like the the ability to market with the people that they're marketing in the places that they're doing it, the frequency, the collaborations, and the sheer number of sports book popping up.

[00:44:20]Like >> clearly there is so much money, >> it's insane. And and I know, you know, I I live for the day that Grank and Tom Brady do a commercial about the dangers of gambling versus making it seem like the coolest thing ever. Because that's the biggest issue I think is right now it is so cool to gamble. Like you got the bar stool sports guys and I let like they're great entertaining. I don't really have an issue with them. But where I have the issue is nobody really markets responsible gaming and responsible gaming shifts the blame onto the customer.

[00:45:03]>> Take some real ownership in it and make it easier to opt out.

[00:45:09]Make it easier. Show your win. Like it should be this would be an easy mandate or an easy thing to implement. Every time you open the app, the very first thing that should pop up and again like getting you know the sports books on board with this like good luck, but it should show your win loss statement. It should show your wages. I never looked at any of that because I knew I was down and I didn't want to know the real number.

[00:45:34]Get rid of VIP house. And again, another wild story. Um, I was on a and I'm not going to name the the book, but this was a year roughly a year after I stopped gambling and I didn't close the account. I just did like the cool off period or whatever.

[00:45:54]Um, and while I was on this cool off period, a sportsbook host at a book that I didn't really ever use all that much reached out to me and said, "How can we win your business? We'll give you free bets." like that is highly illegal.

[00:46:11]And I again I don't not trying to name names. It could have been oversight. It could have been a mistake. But I have a hard time believing that.

[00:46:17]>> Yeah. And with other substances, there is some more accountability. Like at least here in Canada, I know that if if a bartender were to overs serve you, like there can be some sort of legal implication in terms of what happens next. It's kind of insane that these gambling companies don't have anything like that. we that that exists in the states where you know like the restaurant or or bar can be held liable if somebody you know gets a DUI or whatever and kills somebody.

[00:46:40]>> That's wild that that there's nothing like that here. I've never heard of anything that with with gambling.

[00:46:45]>> Not that I know of. Um you know and I think a couple other things like sports teams should not be able to wear a sports book lo sports book logo as a jersey patch.

[00:46:56]>> Um I think limiting to only being able to bet on sports at physical locations would be like one road bump.

[00:47:08]Uh, and then there shouldn't be any gambling advertisements during games.

[00:47:12]And I think I want to say in the UK they already do that or maybe it's Australia.

[00:47:17]I I forget exactly where, but they banned uh advertisements during games.

[00:47:22]And again, like, and we talked about this a little bit earlier uh in the week, but alcohol consumption is way down among Gen Z. And I don't know the last beer commercial I actually saw, unless it was a liquor store, like local liquor store on local TV, you know, they're running a sale or something. But the like my favorite commercials were the Dosekis guy, the most interesting man in the world. Those were great. That's not on anymore. There's the Corona Feliz Na'vi Dog commercial and I think Budweiser probably still runs a few of the Clydesdale, you know, commercials around Christmas time in the Super Bowl.

[00:48:01]>> Oh, that that's super good point. I I had never clocked that, but as someone who watches sports as a kid, it was a lot of beer commercials. Like that was probably like the biggest one. Now it's like sheerely sports books and then like pharma. I see a lot of like >> startups for like Viagra competitors and stuff like that popping up all the time.

[00:48:21]But uh yeah, that is a very good point.

[00:48:23]I hadn't really noticed that until you said that.

[00:48:26]>> It's wild. I mean, and again, I I don't know any that that's just all um anecdotal as to why I think like is that playing a role and to what extent? I don't really know, but I'm sure there's a connection there. There's got to be some correlation.

[00:48:40]>> Yeah. And then it also comes down to the content that like actual kids are making on social media too, right? Because there's so much money flowing there.

[00:48:48]There's so many sponsorships and some of the most creative creators in the planet are partnering with these books to make the best content. And so that's also incredibly problematic, too.

[00:48:58]>> Insane. Uh I mean, Drake is the one of the biggest gambling streamers ever.

[00:49:05]>> I know.

[00:49:05]>> And I don't know if it's true or not. I have to say allegedly for uh legal purposes, right? But like supposedly he has a $und00 million contract with Stake.

[00:49:14]>> I believe it.

[00:49:16]>> Toi. I just did a video about Togei.

[00:49:18]Like I hate that guy.

[00:49:20]>> Yeah, he's blown up, man. In a very big way. Keith, do you know who that is?

[00:49:24]Togei.

[00:49:25]>> I'm I'm realizing from uh from Caleb Hammer. I think I saw some of that.

[00:49:29]>> Yeah, he's he's really popular amongst young men. Uh and he really promotes gambling a lot and how like just keep playing, man. Eventually you're going to win. And it's like, but then if you never stop, you're going to lose.

[00:49:42]>> So weird. And he glorifies the addiction side of it, too, where he's like, I'm the only guy who's ever lost his house from gambling. It's like >> like a bad one, no.

[00:49:51]>> Yeah. Like, one, no, you're not. And two, that's not cool.

[00:49:55]Like, and thirdly, you're getting paid by the casinos and sports books and whoever you're partnering with, you're gambling with their money, >> right? They're paying you to gamble.

[00:50:07]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:08]>> So, you're not really losing your own money and you're getting a cut typically of however many people you get to sign up.

[00:50:14]>> Mhm.

[00:50:15]>> So, like miss me with that. Like, give me a break.

[00:50:18]>> The And the crazy thing is though that he prays on the fact that the economy is so bad and there's not that many great prospects for young people right now.

[00:50:24]And so, he also that's even more nefarious too, right? Because a lot of the points that he's making like they're not entirely wrong, right? that that it's super hard or that like you don't have the best chances unless you figure something out. And so it's really resonating unfortunately with a lot of young people. And it's super super sad to see. But I see his clips all the time, man. It's crazy.

[00:50:47]>> It's it's all right. Like it has to be an act, right? It it just has to be.

[00:50:52]>> Um I don't think there's anybody that can be like that delusional, but >> you know, maybe there is.

[00:50:59]And and prediction markets are going to be a huge problem. Um they already are, right? Like >> you only have to be 18. They don't need a gambling license to operate. So it's legal everywhere.

[00:51:15]And you're now capturing a new part of the market that you probably wouldn't have had in the past. Like CNN partnered with Koshi, I think Koshi or Polymart, I forget which one. But you're now going to bring in a whole new group of people that like maybe they're just like watching Anderson Cooper and CNN and hate sports, but they think they're an expert on when Trump is going to bomb Iran.

[00:51:44]>> Yep.

[00:51:45]>> And then they're calling it trading because what? because it's a yes no binary system and trading a contract like no it's still gambling.

[00:51:56]>> They have parlays on Koshi.

[00:51:58]>> Do they really?

[00:51:59]>> Yeah, you can do combo combo trades.

[00:52:02]>> Oh god, >> that is a parlay.

[00:52:04]>> Yeah, totally.

[00:52:06]>> They have Kelshi has a This is mind-blowing to me. And and some states are coming around admittedly like Wisconsin um just legalized sports betting and the I forget attorney general or who somebody uh within the government is suing the prediction markets.

[00:52:26]>> So like some some stuff is starting to come around. States are waking up and it is admitted like based on law states rights thing. Um but Khi has a self-exclude option.

[00:52:39]Why does a finance app that is trading need self-exclusion?

[00:52:44]I don't think Erade offers that. I don't think Charles Schwab has that. I don't think Robin Hood has it. Why does Koshi like it's putting lipstick on a peg?

[00:52:53]>> Madness. Um >> and Durant.

[00:52:58]>> No. Yeah, it's it's definitely insane what's happening with the prediction markets and the whole marketing of um this idea of, you know, people having this information and being able to find some edge and uh the business op side of it all, right? the the people saying that this is like a way to make a money and and make a living and things of that nature when really um the real advantage the only way to truly have a long-term advantage in those types of markets is to have the insider information >> right that to have access to it like the guy the US military guy got arrested yesterday um which I don't know if you saw he he made a huge wager or trade I should say right on uh if the US was going to take out Maduro in Venezuela. Well, it turns out he had all the information because he was in the military >> and they just popped him.

[00:53:55]>> Which, you know, why is it okay? I'm going I'm going off the on a tangent here, but like why does that guy get in trouble, but we have all of our politicians trading individual stocks?

[00:54:06]But that's a conversation for another day.

[00:54:10]>> Definitely, man.

[00:54:11]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:54:13]the real concerns. But yeah, we appreciate it. We appreciate the conversation. We appreciate you sharing your experiences and we appreciate you sharing the things that you're sharing to social media in general. Um, it does make a difference and as Ben was saying earlier, just having somebody that represents uh you in some way is something that really means a lot. Uh so it's cool that you've been also partnering with people that actually understand the problem fully in and out because uh like you said there's just a huge imbalance and there's unfortunately probably going to be even more of that uh as we continue to see these platforms grow and uh take over people's lives. So um yeah man, thanks for doing what you do.

[00:54:56]I appreciate you guys for having your platform and bringing me on and I know you guys are doing a lot more work in this space too. So um you know let me let me know how I can help or be a resource or like just want to be involved ultimately. So um thank you.

[00:55:13]Appreciate it.

[00:55:14]>> Of course, man. Thank you so much for giving us your time. And if anybody wants to follow the stuff that you are talking about on social media like what what are your handles and on the platforms? Uh on Instagram it's winning.with withoutwagers and then Tik Tok and YouTube same thing but no periods and then um Burchchesalth I I post on on their profiles as well.

[00:55:35]>> Awesome. Okay, great. All those links guys will be linked down below. So if you want to go check out all of that definitely go do so. And if you are looking for support, Burch seems like a solid option. So definitely go do your research, check out their website and book a call. But uh thank you so much Joe. really appreciate your time here, man, and thanks for all that you do.

[00:55:52]>> Thank you. Likewise. Enjoy the weekend, guys.

[00:55:54]>> You, too, man.

[00:55:55]>> You too, man.

[00:55:55]>> If you got anything from this at all whatsoever, be sure to hit that like button and subscribe. Before you go, we launched an app called No Dice that's designed to help you track your gambling habits and prevent you from making mistakes that can cost you a lot of time, money, and relationships with your friends and family. The app allows you to block gambling apps, track how much money you saved, and get you access to our challenge called No Dice 45 that's designed to help you take back control of your life. Click the link in the description to download No Dice today and join us in the No Dice 45 challenge.

[00:56:25]Be sure to share this with anyone who you might want to join in on the conversation or to join you on the challenge. Until next time. Peace.