Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - May 29th, 2026 | Bloomberg Businessweek

Added: 2026-06-01

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[00:00:08]This is Bloomberg Business Week Daily.

[00:00:11]Reporting from the magazine that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people, companies, and trends shaping today's complex economy. Plus, global business, finance, and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast with Carol Masser and Tim Stenbec on Bloomberg Radio.

[00:00:32]>> Hi everyone, welcome to the Bloomberg Business Week weekend podcast. Carol's out this week. Alex Seanova and Emily Grafo tapping in for some of our conversations today. And it was a week with the economic environment really top of mind, especially top of mind. Global markets reacting to a potential resolution in hostilities in the Middle East. Traders parsing mixed signals about prospects for a US Iran deal to end the war and revive energy flows through the straight of hormuz. All the important details of course can be found at bloomberg.com and always on the Bloomberg terminal. Meanwhile, lingering interest rate anxieties, persistent inflationary pressures, a deepening global energy shock and more earnings made us wonder about the state of the consumer. Peter Atwater discusses how he went from a K-shaped recovery to a full-blown K-shaped American experience.

[00:01:16]He'll explain in just a bit. With that in mind, a closer look at two items that are really squeezing American household budgets, health care and food. We catch up with the CEO of Resilient Health on the personal cost of staying healthy.

[00:01:29]And then with Dr. Michael Swanson on what's keeping grocery prices stubbornly high and speaking of the grocery aisle, the founder of Mr. Bing Foods on scaling a global street food into a profitable condiment brand. And yes, we had to taste the chili crisp. All that to come.

[00:01:44]We begin with a look into consumer health. The most recent US consumer confidence report adding to evidence of growing anxiety among American consumers about the high cost of living. The recent spike in fuel prices is particularly challenging for lower inome households despite a largely stable labor market and few signs of broad layoffs. When we talk about sentiment, we talked to Peter Atwater. He's president of financial insights. He's also adjunct lecture of economics at the College of William and Mary. He joins us on set in the Bloomberg Business Week studio. Peter, I think a lot of people know you as the the K-shape guy. Uh, and nowadays we hear about this from from everyone, whether we're talking to executives or executives are talking about earnings calls um or we're talking to to analysts or investors here on our program. It's not getting any better. In fact, it's getting worse.

[00:02:32]>> Yeah. And in fact, it's no longer a straight line K. the the arm of the K looks almost parabolic >> and the leg is turning almost straight down into despair. And so the divide between those at the top and bottom isn't just economic at this point. It's almost become two life experiences that bear nothing in common. And I and I worry that those at the top are doing all they can not to see those at the bottom, but in a world of social media, those at the bottom can't help but see this enormous overabundance that exists above them.

[00:03:21]>> I want to get more into that. There was a great piece in the Atlantic this weekend. The Vibe session is over. The Perma session is here. It spoke about how households are feeling worse about their finances and the economy uh than they did back in 1970 during great inflation. So you talk also a lot about the confidence gap. How much does the pullback from lowerend consumers have to do with the fact that they just don't see any upward mobility?

[00:03:46]>> It's not only that they don't see any upward mobility. The AI boom has now put a target on their back. They believe that it's a zero- sum game and they're looking at all of these gains being made in AI stocks and believing that ultimately it will come at their expense. And so a lot of this has to do with how both groups imagine the future. And the imagination of the future could not be more divided in terms of extraordinary optimism at the top and this dire level of despair at the bottom. And it's the despair that troubles me because I know that ultimately that is what sets people into the streets. Are you seeing I want to talk about those those people and the repercussions of this or the ramifications of this in a minute, but before we do that just the we we hear so much about the resilience of the American consumer and I hear what you're saying about despair and that bottom rung of the K, but are we are we seeing uh an uptick in people missing car payments? Are we seeing people uh spend a certain demographics, put a different type of payment on their credit card? We talked to the folks at the buy now pay later firm a firm and they and they have the you know their their client is the average American and they say the average American is doing so well right now.

[00:05:22]>> Yeah. So if I look at credit card uh delinquencies, which this month look like they're going to come in at about 13%.

[00:05:30]What is so striking to me is if you if you look at it mathematically that level is historically high but it comes at a time when within the card portfolio you have enormous convenience balances that are absolutely riskless for the card issuer. And so on their own, I suspect that the the quality that the card issuers are seeing among their lowest tier is distressful.

[00:06:07]And the challenge right now, Tim, is that we have this this bifurcation where not only are businesses like the airlines dependent on the top, but I see so many derivatives of wealth, including our banking system, that require at this point those at the top to continue to do extraordinarily well. It's fascinating to me that a bank like JP Morgan at the bottom of the financial crisis, there were about $3 worth of credit card balances to private banking balances.

[00:06:49]Today, the lines have crossed. They have more credit outstanding to private clients than they do to Main Street credit card holders. So there's been an enormous wave of credit extended to those at the top with a belief that that they will never default. I think that when you see so much of our economic system now dependent on those at the top, it begins to beg that question.

[00:07:19]>> This bifurcation, Peter, has been a problem for years now and seems to only be getting worse as you just mentioned.

[00:07:25]What can policymakers do to remedy this?

[00:07:27]And if they don't step in, what is the worst case scenario?

[00:07:30]>> I I think policymakers need to be thinking about the needs at the bottom of the hierarchy. We know that food insecurity is an issue that leads people to protest and riot. We know that basic health care is financially debilitating to those at the bottom. And so I think we need to be thinking about the basic needs and ensuring that there is a safety net. And I think of it as a social safety net that prevents despair from setting in.

[00:08:06]And I think that we need to be cognizant of the fact that there is a growing population that feel hopeless and that hopelessness ultimately leads to action. Well, what what kind of action? I think a lot of people watching this, especially on primary day in in Texas and as we do get into the midterms, would think that there are electoral consequences and certainly that was a lot of the naval gazing that we saw post 2016 election.

[00:08:34]But but what are ramifications of this?

[00:08:36]>> So the ramifications, if you go back to the fall, to me it was no coincidence that in the midst of this affordability crisis that everybody was talking about, you saw a more populist mayor elected here in New York.

[00:08:49]>> Okay. who resonated both left and right.

[00:08:53]One of the things that is so telling about this latest consumer sentiment data is that for the first time we have a meaningful drop in confidence among Republicans.

[00:09:06]>> And so the bottom is purple. It's not red or blue. And so that purple wants change. And candidly, neither party has done anything to suggest that they have action in place to to serve those at the bottom.

[00:09:29]>> So, do do the do the people at the bottom have to be served through political action or is there a way for this to be solved without Washington's help?

[00:09:38]>> I think you're you're seeing it on a local level first.

[00:09:40]>> Okay. as I would expect and ultimately those changes on a local level lead to national.

[00:09:48]>> So local like New York City and Zaron Mamani our newish mayor.

[00:09:52]>> Yeah.

[00:09:52]>> Where else?

[00:09:53]>> So I think we're going to see examples of that this fall where you have incumbents on both the left and right who are voted out. And I think it's quite interesting in some of the political ads, incumbents aren't even talking about the fact that they're incumbents like because they know that it's >> governor of California, someone like Steve Hilton coming in or mayor of Los Angeles, someone like Spencer Pratt coming in for example.

[00:10:21]>> Is that what you're talking about?

[00:10:23]>> It'll start at a local level.

[00:10:25]>> Okay. Interesting. And and part of that is every crisis is local and politics are incredibly local when confidence is low.

[00:10:37]And so that's where people it's tangible. It's immediate. It's proximate. And so those are where people demand change first.

[00:10:47]I'm really interested, Peter, in this idea that you mentioned of America becoming more of an ownership economy where more and more goes to the people who already own homes, who already own financial assets. Can you talk a little bit more about how this uh incredible run in AI companies is worsening that?

[00:11:04]>> Yeah. So you have beneficiaries of asset inflation and it's hard not to see it and it driving everything from nicks tickets to air airline seats.

[00:11:21]Owners of assets today have choices and opportunities that those below don't.

[00:11:28]And I think that for every owner there is a renter. there is, you know, somebody with a car payment, somebody with a credit card payment. So, so you have those that are in essence extending credit, extending opportunity and those who are on the other side of it. And the gap to move from one to the other is it's it's too wide and it's too costly.

[00:12:01]You you look at you know the average rate on a credit card you know 20ome percent. Well to pay that off first to to begin that upward migration is all but impossible. We're speaking with Peter Atwater president of financial insights. He's a lecturer of economics at William and Mary. He's also the author of the confidence map charting a path from chaos to clarity. Peter, let's let's end with the investment thesis in an an environment in a world where the Ks are sort of going parabolic in the other directions. We're speaking to you on a day where the S&P 500 could finish again at a new record. Doesn't seem like this idea of a weakening bottom rung of the Kay is holding back investment in AI as Alex mentioned. What's the what are the investment ramifications of society like this? The investment ramifications are that there is an overinvestment in this abstract technology that we crave when confidence is extremely high.

[00:13:02]We imagine this unlimited opportunity in futuristic technology at every peak in confidence and then there comes the backlash and in this case I expect the backlash to AI to only grow >> and I think those at the top particularly the proponents of AI fail to appreciate the zero sum that is seen seen by those at the bottom. And the higher the market goes, the more those at the bottom feel that ultimately they will pay the price because to sustain that earnings growth. It has to come somewhere and the most obvious target is labor. Peter Atwater always thoughtful conversation when you join us here on Bloomberg Business Week Daily.

[00:13:57]Peter's president of financial insights.

[00:13:58]He's an adjunct lecture of economics at the College of William and Mary. He's also the author of the book, The Confidence Map: Charting a Path from Chaos to Clarity.

[00:14:11]>> You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week daily podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2:00 to 5:00 Eastern.

[00:14:18]>> Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App or watch us live on YouTube.

[00:14:25]The surging cost of corporate healthcare has employer sponsored premiums jumping nearly 8%. It's the sharpest annual increase in over a decade and it's driven heavily by GLP-1 weight loss drugs and outpatient care. That's according to the 2026 Millan Medical Index. That increase in cost now has some companies moving past basic cost shifting and partnering directly with provider networks. It's something that Dr. Donnes Nagda knows all too well.

[00:14:50]He's the CEO and co-founder of Resilient Health. that offers direct primary and specialty care for employers and their employees. Good to have you on the program this afternoon, doctor. I um I want you to explain how people access resilient health because you you essentially serve two different markets, right? You need to get the employer to sign on and you need to get the company to start using the the the benefit and then then their employees can start using the benefit. How does it work? One of the biggest things that we've seen recently uh is that employers are really struggling with their employees getting access. I mean that's why you're seeing the rise of these other tools because people are just opting out of the healthare system. And the problem with that is that if you keep opting out of the healthare system when you actually get sick you don't know where to go. You don't have an existing relationship. So what the employers are doing is they're offering these really high quality benefits for their employees. And what the data shows, and it's very well established, but even our own internal data shows that when you spend a dollar on primary care, you can save $3 to5 in the same year.

[00:15:50]>> Wow.

[00:15:51]>> What is the obstacle to the access to health care? Is it is it financial? Is it a a convenience thing? A difficulty?

[00:16:02]>> I mean, we all have tried to get a primary care appointment. It takes 3 to 6 months. So, there's no availability.

[00:16:06]>> You literally have to know someone.

[00:16:08]You have to know somebody and to have to phone a friend just to get access to a primary care doctor.

[00:16:12]>> Yeah. Okay. I thought that was just a New York City problem, but I guess it I guess it's not.

[00:16:16]>> But isn't that worse in other parts?

[00:16:19]>> But that's a problem. St. Louis, it takes six months.

[00:16:21]>> But isn't that a problem with primary care because uh primary care doesn't really do procedures and therefore they're not paid the way that other doctors are paid. So there's a problem attracting primary care doctors or in the case of like so many doctors who I've had even even our pediatrician they're going concierge. So literally tens of thousands of dollars to to actually go and see a doctor because it is so much more lucrative and there is that opportunity there. How do you attract primary care doctors >> with when the when the system I think many people would argue is so broken?

[00:16:52]Well, the dirty little secret in healthcare is that everybody's focused on the boomers, the aging population, Medicare Advantage, and what's happened is when you think about Nana having seven different diseases, the primary care doctors have to spend an hour, two hours with her, but they can't worry about your mental health, they can't worry about your other issues, and so they end up spending 5 minutes with you.

[00:17:12]And so that delay is coming from the fact that we have a mismatch. We have a primary care doctor that's coming in and is completely focused. The first visit was somebody with cancer, the second visit with somebody with maybe what seems like nothing, back pain, but that back pain can lead to a 40 $50,000 surgery. So this mismatch of supply and demand is a big issue. And that's where AI is actually playing a great role.

[00:17:33]>> So you you trained you you went to med school at the University of Pennsylvania. You you did your residency in odolarangology at the um at at WashU in St. Louis. What made you want to sort of leave traditional uh medicine and start companies?

[00:17:48]>> It's actually one of the greatest there was recently lots of data that came out in the last week or so. A lot of doctors are leaving medicine making the problem worse. Now I might be part of the problem but I want to be part of the solution as well which is it is incredibly challenging right now for a provider or a doctor to deliver care. Uh the reimbursement models are completely breaking. The patients are not getting enough time. there's moral injury associated with it. And so what we want to do is use technology to restore that doctor patient relationship and that's really what I built this company around.

[00:18:20]I mean I'd already built a company before that was acquired and went public and so this was for me the opportunity to kind of go back and build this and most importantly I was a caregiver for my dad and this is the the again uh unspoken truth in healthcare in America because we're so focused on people with chronic diseases. you, your family members, and others are walking around with undetected diseases that will become those chronic diseases. And if we could get early early enough into the cycle of it, we could prevent what happened to my dad and my co-founder's mom where they literally just missed a diagnosis for decades from happening and my dad would still be here playing with my grand, you know, with playing with my kids. And so I think that that's the reality of healthcare in America. H >> how does AI find those? Is it AI? How do we find those undetected um symptoms? AI is already finding them today. 40 million daily queries on chat GPT for healthcare. 40 million daily. You that's way more than the healthare system today because people are just saying we're done. We're opting out. We're going to go this other route because we trust them more than we trust doctors. And it's just the way it is. As a doctor, I feel very comfortable saying that. The problem is one, those systems are not built with the clinical guardrails that are required. two, when you do need something, they don't know where to send you. And so I think the answer is AI plus healthcare together solving the problem. So you could go into, for example, resilience AI native. So you can go in and ask us questions just like you would with chat GPT, but we can escalate it to a provider. They can see you same day. So, it's just the opportunity to be able to get as much information, as much time, and most importantly, as much knowledge that is needed for you to take care of yourself, but not get lost in the rigor role of the current healthare system, which is just an absolute mess.

[00:20:07]>> Yeah, I actually threw some labs into uh Claude a little earlier today.

[00:20:11]>> And I'm and I know my doctor will look at him and get back to me, but now I know what he's going to say. So, I guess if if Claude is correct, that's the question. Hey, the the ma making sure that that the AI is actually trained because we did site a study earlier this week that said a good portion of what you get back on chat GPT when it comes to medicine is not actually that accurate. What's the right way what's the right way to have the guardrails up that that actually make sure you deliver the right information? Just 30 seconds left.

[00:20:36]>> Yeah. So, from our perspective, the most important thing is to know when uh the confidence of that model is high or low.

[00:20:42]So, if you just think about the way cloud responds to you, it's as if it knows all the answers. um and that everything it's saying is correct. For us, we actually look at confidence scores of the responses and use that to escalate care in a what we call harness of guard rails to make sure that no patient gets the wrong care at the wrong time.

[00:21:01]>> Dr. Danish Nagda got to come back soon.

[00:21:04]Appreciate you taking the time and and and joining us. He's the CEO and the co-founder of Resilient Health. He joins us this afternoon. From paying up for healthare to paying up for groceries.

[00:21:14]Here's an interesting story that you could have missed. We know farmers worldwide have been under pressure due to the Iran war. It's disrupted supplies of conventional nitrogen fertilizer.

[00:21:22]It's forcing these farmers to improvise ahead of this crucial fall planting seasons. One of the ways they're improvising is actually using human urine as a fertilizer. TP Organics is a French startup. This was in Bloomberg News last week. It converts human urine collected from schools and festivals into a bacteria feed that helps plants grow. The Bloomberg newspiece also said that since late February, sales have jumped about a quarter for the product.

[00:21:47]There is no end in sight to rival US and Iranian blockades in Hormuz. Fertilizer disruptions are expected to persist. A prolonged conflict could mean weaker harvests and higher grocery prices. This is what Dr. Michael Swanson looks at.

[00:22:00]This is his specialty. He's chief agricultural economist at the Wells Fargo Agra Food Institute. He joins us from Maryland. Dr. Swanson, good to have you on the program. the disruptions that we've seen as a result of the f of the on fertilizer as a result of the the war in Iran, the straight of hormuse closure. We spoke at the top of our program about what an open straight of hormuse could look like and and when that could happen. Hint, we're still no closer than we were 3 days ago is what our our Bloomberg news team says. Uh Chris Kennedy over at Bloomberg Economics. uh if the straight were to open how quick soon how quickly would we then see fertilizer prices drop and that actually hit worldwide agriculture.

[00:22:44]>> You know it's interesting the prices would drop quickly even though the supply itself would be delayed behind it but these are markets that are always looking forward. So he the same thing that drove them up quicker than the product disruption would take the prices down faster than the product actually arriving to the markets.

[00:23:01]>> Dr. Swanson, one of the themes that we've been talking about a lot is this idea that consumers are trading down on certain items. They're trading down on staples but splurging, for example, on certain categories. Where are you seeing this when it comes to food trends?

[00:23:16]>> You know, it's interesting. You can see it clearly in the protein space. I mean, when you look at the value of chicken and pork relative to beef right now, clearly it's really bidding up that demand in a big way. But on the flip side, when you look in the beverage categories, some of the probiotic um soft drink replacements, they are super premium pricing, but they're not finding any problems looking for good demand.

[00:23:36]They have plenty of product demand even at that super premium pricing.

[00:23:40]>> You know what I noticed over the weekend? I was buying some chicken and it said 20 grams of protein per serving on it. And I'm thinking to myself, is this is this a result of the protein craze coming from GLP1s that, you know, even even foods that have had the same protein content in them for generations, like forever, are now advertising that protein because that's what at least American consumers want to see.

[00:24:03]>> That's exactly what you're seeing. So, we're seeing across every single category. If you have a protein component, you're going to highlight that first on your packaging. And it's interesting how packaging really responds to that question that's on the consumer's mind. But you're exactly right. This is something that's going to continue and it's going to be very prominent. I think you're going to see it clearly in every single category.

[00:24:22]>> Is this protein craze is it like other food crazes in the past where we've we've seen people, you know, consumers are fickle and and Americans are fickle when it comes to sort of what we follow or is this protein craze here to stay?

[00:24:35]>> You know, it's a great question and it's here to stay. I mean, you you and I can all name diets that have come and go.

[00:24:40]paleo, Atkins, and things like that. But when you're talking about a medicine that's going to be prescribed, it's going to be the new statin. When you think about it, there's like 90 million prescriptions for statins out there right now. This is going to be the new statins. And since Americans are pretty good at taking their pills, this is going to be one that's going to stick around. This is not a fad that's going to walk away. It's going to be here for a long time. Consumers are very much feeling the sticker shock of prices when they go to the grocery store even as some agricultural commodity prices have actually come down. At what point do consumers feel some of that relief in the stores?

[00:25:17]>> You know, it depends on the category.

[00:25:19]Take eggs for example. Last year's um aven highly pathogenic aven influenza was just an enormous shock, but we're actually below the price starting that cycle right now. But we're not seeing consumers really take away a lot more eggs even at these really low prices. So it takes an awful lot to shake an American out of his particular diet that they really like. But we will see some relief as we, for example, the dairy industry right now, they're chasing more cows to produce more beef, which means more milk. So we're seeing good dairy pricing as well. So the consumer does have some opportunities if they're willing to look for them. As we head into the summer months, are there any categories in food that might see inflation pick up? Any that you're expecting for it to be worse than others?

[00:26:04]>> You know, right now what we're seeing is a little bit in the vegetable and fruit category. We started out the year with a tough spot with the freeze in Florida which really put up the price of tomatoes and we're going to have to wait to see what happens with the labor with the transportation cost because diesel is a major cost for moving it around the country and bring it into the country.

[00:26:23]So probably fruits and vegetables will probably be the most pressure thanks to the um recent events we've seen.

[00:26:28]>> So my same question to you about fertilizer has to do with diesel prices.

[00:26:33]If the straight does open and diesel prices come down, will will we stop seeing those price increases in fruits and vegetables?

[00:26:40]>> You know, probably not because the bigger driver is going to be that long-term availability of wages and wage inflation is probably still running in that 3 4% range right now. So diesel would be a nice relief factor. Don't get me wrong on that, but the wages are going to be a bigger piece of it for the longer term. And once they go up, they almost never come down.

[00:27:02]>> What about our farmers, Michael? There is a disconnect between how much farmers are earning and how much consumers are paying. Are American farmers getting squeezed right now as grocery bills remain elevated?

[00:27:14]>> You know, it's a great question. It really is farmer by farmer. You know when we look at the micro data that we have last year we saw some amazingly good returns in the same year as very bad returns and I think what really driving a lot of it is the technology what we're hearing from the farmers is technological change is so rapid and so difficult they're having a hard time implementing it if they're not on top of it. So yeah, we're seeing some squeeze.

[00:27:38]It would be nice for them to get some price relief from the higher crop prices which would be inflationary or lower input prices which would be great. But what's not going away is the vice of technological change which is just really putting them in a tough spot.

[00:27:52]>> You mentioned the rising prices of protein and the story in the Washington Post over the weekend got my attention about how the Texas barbecue industry is struggling due to rising meat prices.

[00:28:02]The cost of brisket increasing 28% over the past year. Imports coming from outside the United States. I mean that that is what an import is. Is that going to put a dent in in rising beef prices?

[00:28:14]you know, not really for that type of a category. So, grind that goes into hamburger. Absolutely. This industry has discovered that Brazil is a gold mine of hamburger and they're going to mine it for the foreseeable future. But when it comes to identifiable cuts, steaks and and brisket, things like that, no, we don't really have another source because we want a certain quality. So, this industry is pretty bullish right now about their ability to keep prices high and it usually is a sign that things will change when they think nothing will change.

[00:28:48]>> Michael going to have to leave it there, but this was a great chat. You got to come back soon. We appreciate you taking the time. Michael Swanson, chief agriculture economist at the Wells Fargo Agra Food Institute joining us from Minneapolis this afternoon.

[00:29:15]You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week daily podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2:00 to 5:00 Eastern.

[00:29:22]>> Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App or watch us live on YouTube.

[00:29:29]Sometimes we get the stuff ahead of time to try it and just like see or just like check out the product.

[00:29:34]>> Scarlet food.

[00:29:34]>> Yeah, she gave me she gave me some of the the chili crisp.

[00:29:37]>> I didn't get anything on his desk.

[00:29:39]>> It was on my desk and it it said you don't need to refrigerate it. You can just open it and and then so every day I just take a little bit and put it on my eggs. Poof.

[00:29:46]>> Yeah. And then suddenly I ate both of them. But fortunately Brian Goldberg brought more. He's founder and chief chief growth officer over at Mr. Bing Foods. He joins us here in the Bloomberg Interactive Broker Studio. I'm glad you brought I'm very relieved you brought more because I was really worried that I had um you know really messed this up.

[00:30:02]Uh you have a really interesting story.

[00:30:04]You had this food truck. You you spent some time living abroad where you had this love of street food. You wanted to bring this back to the to the US. How did you end up with a project line that looked like this?

[00:30:15]>> So it all Yeah. It started back in the late '9s in China. Study abroad with my co-founder in Beijing. Ate these amazing street foods in particular yenbing. It's like a savory Chinese crepe that we would have for like breakfast every day before school and then one day we decided to bring that you know to Hong Kong and then to the US and the sauces in there is what our platform is now. So we had a whole restaurant kiosk food truck life in Hong Kong and then in New York for almost 10 years where the brand really built itself up uh as a street food forward panasian street food brand.

[00:30:48]The sauce is basically we were doing popups inside a lot of the corporate office cafeterias in New York pre- pandemic partnering with Compass Armark and Sedexo and the chefs noticed that we had this chili crisp that we had created. Uh chili crisp has existed for a long time right in China. Basically we wanted to make a version a little more accessible for the American market on our own the right particulate size to spread in the food a mild version of it.

[00:31:15]little bit of a different flavor profile, a little more versatile with Mexican, Korean, Chinese flavors to make Chili Crisp more adaptable to so many other cuisines.

[00:31:24]>> The chefs at those places like at Goldman Sachs and at Morgan Stanley and at Google, LinkedIn, where we were doing all these uh Bing popups, loved it, and asked us to put it in a big size that they could use in other foods.

[00:31:38]>> So, I'm holding a there's a there's a big size here. This is I don't think they have the actual Oh, 64 ouncez.

[00:31:43]Yeah. version of this which >> that is a big size >> which a typical is 7 oz. So yeah that's that's a big that's >> so for their for their use in their kitchens. Yes, they wanted to use it like to mix with ranch, to mix with mayo, to make what they call plus ones or sauce hacks where you I mean you can use it straight up like on eggs, rice, pizza, pasta, burgers. It was a big trend. I mean, it trended a lot during the pandemic, right? It's become much more mainstream now when it was much more niche before.

[00:32:08]>> Well, it's it's interesting because I see it everywhere now. Just Chili Crisp, a lot of different companies make it.

[00:32:14]And it was it was first on my radar like I guess maybe two years ago. My wife bought it at the store, brought it home and now it's like now it chili crisp is a condiment that we always have >> in the home and we have bought there are a lot of different versions of it. I mean Momaf Fuku does a version. There's like some classic versions >> uh as well from from other companies.

[00:32:32]It's really crowded space at this point.

[00:32:35]>> Well, Chili Crisp definitely saw like a massive growth during uh the pandemic.

[00:32:39]It's grown over 700% on menus nationwide in terms of the mention of Chili Crisp, right?

[00:32:45]>> Which is sort of our real strong forte is on the food service side as well.

[00:32:48]We're one of basically the leading brand in the country in food service chili crisp.

[00:32:52]>> If you go to a restaurant, hotel, college, stadium, airline, if they're using Chili Crisp, they're using your stuff.

[00:32:57]>> That's so interesting.

[00:32:58]>> Most likely it's ours. Not necessarily.

[00:33:00]>> Is that like is that like 70 or 80% of your business or what's >> Chili Crisp? Chili Crisp itself is about 85% but within our overall business almost 50% of our of our revenues is food service.

[00:33:12]>> Okay.

[00:33:13]>> Right. So that so our products are very chef driven. I mean like it was kind of created by the rest by the kiosks.

[00:33:20]Right. And then the chefs that started buying it in big size wanted it a certain way. And we really had that dialogue with a lot of chefs about creating it, how to create it. And then that's what led to the barbecue sauces, a more squeezable sort of format of a chili crisp, right? Um, so we've been very involved with the chef community around the country. We've been very fortunate uh to have that opportunity and that's there's a flywheel effect between >> being on restaurant menus and then how your sales are like in the stores ret and also the e-commerce piece like all three of these things you know impact each other.

[00:33:54]>> Where's the growth? I get the under I get it like you're in a restaurant you do it and then you like you want it for home. Where's the growth in terms of your businesses? Is it to the restaurants or the business side of it?

[00:34:05]Um the corporate side if you will or is it in retail outlets? Like where's the where's the growth?

[00:34:10]>> The it's all really across the board.

[00:34:12]All of it. You know, I think we've been very fortunate to have the opportunity, the relationships and the distribution.

[00:34:17]Frankly, getting distribution is really hard. You really need like anchor customers, anchor clients, anchor restaurant chains, anchor retail. Once you have that, then you can really go out and sell to everyone everyone else.

[00:34:28]Uh, but the growth right now is in our squeezables. Like chili crisp is awesome. Don't get me wrong. People love it, but you got to you got to stir it up, spoon it out, scoop it out. It's a little bit. You have to take that extra step. You get a little oil on the on the counter, which is fine. It's just the nature of it, right? Because of the texture and how the particulates are.

[00:34:44]But a lot of people just like to reach for something and squeeze it and squirt it and put it back, right? And that's what these are. This takes chili crisp.

[00:34:51]They're about 10% chili crisp bits in them. So, it's a line of Asian barbecue sauces. Chili crisp barbecue sauces. the first ones on the market that are a chili crisp based barbecue sauce, right?

[00:35:02]Uh and that was developed because chefs wanted to squeeze the chili crisp. They wanted to be able to apply it to pizza or to wings more easily. You needed something sticky like a binder, right?

[00:35:13]And that like toppers pizza in Wisconsin was the first one that really did that with us. And that led to the OG sweet and spicy. And then that worked so well in a large format that we decided to go a little more panasian. And that led to the Thai the hot the Thai hot honey which has more like lemongrass and could fear lime leaf in it. We have a Korean go jang forward one that has more yuzu and ginger. And we have a mild. So don't forget like our mild chili crisp is actually more than half our sales of chili crisp because almost half of Americans don't like spicy food.

[00:35:47]>> I'm a mild kind of gal. The rest of my family is >> Okay. So I'll take the spicy one. You take the mild. Um the the the things you just held up those small dishes. What are those? These are samples. These are just we call them hockey pucks.

[00:35:59]>> Basically, these little baby guys.

[00:36:01]>> TSA compliant.

[00:36:02]>> They are TSA compliant. They are. And I'm sort of infamous for always having them in.

[00:36:06]>> So now I know what he's going to be traveling with.

[00:36:10]>> Yes. Exactly. So b basically I mean food service is so relationship driven and chili Chris to your point like a lot of people don't know what it is. You have to taste it to kind of understand what it really is if you've never had it.

[00:36:22]>> I've never had it.

[00:36:23]>> Oh it's it's so good. sharing with you when I was absolutely not.

[00:36:29]>> But honestly, I have a I have a real question about the serving sizes because the these these little jars have 40 are supposed to have 40 servings.

[00:36:36]>> Um that is like not typical for me uh in terms of serving and but also to to include on.

[00:36:47]>> How much do you take, Tim? How much?

[00:36:48]>> A few teaspoons each time. Yeah, quite a bit though. But I but but I mean I think that's it's kind of regardless. I don't know. It just SEEMS LIKE >> I'M SORRY. IT JUST SEEMS like a small serving size. I don't know. Do you do you find that chef >> you know you have a big appetite?

[00:37:01]>> I do, but but do you find that chefs are actually adhering to like what a like that actual suggested serving? I know that's just the nutrition information side of it, but is that meant to be like to flavor an entire piece of pizza or flavor like three eggs?

[00:37:14]>> It's it's a good question. So like in food service and according to like food labeling rules, there is a standard serving size for different types of things. Barbecue sauce is a particular standard serving size.

[00:37:24]>> I guess that makes sense if you want to compare labels across the board.

[00:37:27]>> Yes, exactly. And chili oil because it's pretty potent or can be pretty potent.

[00:37:31]You know, ours is not. We It's kind of builds up. It doesn't overpower you.

[00:37:35]It's more about the texture, the flavor, but there is a standard serving size that you put on there for chili oil.

[00:37:40]Now, chefs will use as much as they want. Okay.

[00:37:43]>> Right. I mean, the Tyson chef was covering an entire turkey with a chili crisp turkey as a new concept.

[00:37:49]>> That's cool, >> right? That's really cool.

[00:37:52]>> And so that totally blew away the portion size, right? So >> Tim, did you hear Brian said standard size?

[00:37:57]>> Yeah, standard. Yeah, that's okay.

[00:37:58]>> Just got to put out there. Um I'm just looking at So you guys are in 10,000 retail doors nationwide.

[00:38:05]>> Yes. Over 10,000 on the Chili Crisp.

[00:38:08]Over 200 on the barbecue sauces. Yeah.

[00:38:10]And I don't know how many thousands of restaurants, hotels, colleges, stadiums.

[00:38:15]Does it sell in terms of the retail across the country equally or do you find there's certain metro areas where you really that's where a lot of the demand is?

[00:38:23]>> It I mean it does tend it used to be very strong in the more international coastal cities right uh but it's really spread just cuz you know Tik Tok and social media people see these things all over the place right away it doesn't really matter but yes we have had a stronger a little bit higher numbers I guess you know east coast and west coast Pacific Northwest where we manufacture it California obviously large Asian manufactured in the United States or >> it is we make everything in the United States which has been really great especially to avoid you know we haven't had the really tariff issue come up uh it makes it a lot easier for us to work with our manufacturers uh to adjust things in terms of supply chain uh but yeah it is we put made in USA and pretty >> pretty big letters on there you know so Asian inspired but made in the USA >> you know um McCormack bought Cholula >> hot sauce for $800 million back in in 2020 things have changed a lot in those in the last six years. You're an independent company now. What's the plan for acquisition or the future?

[00:39:22]>> So, we we're very focused on our current products, growing them, getting them more into more chefs, more stores. We do work with some other big brands. We've been very fortunate through the food service industry in particular, right?

[00:39:36]>> With Kikman, for example, we do a Chili Cres poison sauce together, which is awesome. little bit of panzoo, a little Sriracha in there and we sell that in food service together. Uh with Hormeell, we work with them with their proteins like really complimentary uh companies where they'll use it to ideulate with big the biggest restaurant chains in the in the country right on how to integrate our sauces with their products. And you know, we'll see where things go, but right now right it's really focusing on growing the products, getting the new products out.

[00:40:04]>> So there's more expansion that can come off of this.

[00:40:07]>> Absolutely. a lot a lot more >> like what?

[00:40:10]>> Well, there's, you know, when you talk about numbers in retail, there's roughly 30,000 supermarkets in the country that you kind of judge in terms of your percentage of penetration in retail.

[00:40:19]>> Yeah.

[00:40:19]>> We're just over 10,000, right? So, we have definitely a ways to go and in food service as well and especially with the with the new products. So, >> you know, we're at about a 12 million run rate right now. We're profitable and there's um a lot more growth to >> So, so Brian, how much should Tim eat of this regularly? I think that's personal preference.

[00:40:38]>> Like one teaspoon is a normal a normal person.

[00:40:40]>> Big chili crisp guy.

[00:40:42]>> One teaspoon.

[00:40:44]>> That's a suggestion.

[00:40:45]>> And should he share with his colleagues?

[00:40:47]Maybe >> he should. Come on.

[00:40:48]>> Yeah, >> I will share.

[00:40:51]>> It's on the record. Everybody, >> Brian Brian Goldberg, founder and chief growth officer over at Mr. Bing Foods, joining us here in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers Studio.

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