Dr. Seheult, Dr. Nedley: Hantavirus, Ebola and the End of the World

Added: 2026-05-23

[00:00:00]In 1927, Dr. uh Yore, he saw that people who were infected with neurosyphilis in his sane asylum got better when they had fevers. So he infected them on purpose with malaria, which you may know gives very high fevers. And at the time they had the treatment for malaria, which was quinine. It completely cured them. For that work, he got the Nobel Prize. If you look into SARS KV2, if you look into haunt virus and even if you look into Ebola, all of these viruses has to have some way of getting around the body's defense mechanisms. That's what interferon is. And so we know that there are ways of increasing our own interferon levels. There was a a study where they took a single subcutaneous injection of interferon and was able to drop in half the number of patients requiring emergency room visits or even hospitalization. They were able to elicit a t-fold response in interferon by taking the temperature up to 39° >> which is what we call a fever. It's like a switch. Once you hit the switch and you turn on the innate immune system, that's when it comes on and quite high.

[00:01:13]>> Often some of the things that we're talking about are actually minimized certainly was minimized during the COVID pandemic. You know, the Nia was not wanting to talk about any new start principles that could potentially help this virus. Yes.

[00:01:26]>> And we don't want to get into a situation like that again. Over a hundred years ago during the 1918 pandemic at a time, by the way, where literally millions were being swept into the grave. This was the Hutchinson 7th Day Adventist Seminary. Everybody was under one roof. If you can imagine a nightmare for influenza and how fast it would go, they held about 120 students.

[00:01:48]60 or 90 of them came down with symptoms. Not a single student at that institution became what we would call severely ill. One of the major things that they did at that institution was of course it's going to be hard to find funding for that because what money is there in hot water and towels, right?

[00:02:07]It's not much.

[00:02:09]Our topic today is haunt virus, Ebola, and the coming global crisis and ask a fascinating question. Can heat therapy help support the immune system? And today we're joined by two renowned physicians. First, Dr. Roger Schwelt.

[00:02:27]Dr. Roger Schwelt is a quadruple boardcertified physician and co-founder of the widely respected medical educational platform MedCram. Many of you have seen him on the Huberman Lab podcast and the diary of a CEO, where he's helped millions better understand health, immunity, sunlight, sleep, and disease. Dr. Schwelt is joining us remotely today from Lomolinda, California. Dr. Schwelt, thank you for joining us today.

[00:02:56]>> Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here.

[00:02:59]>> And we're also joined by Dr. Neil Nedley. Dr. Neil Nedley is an awardwinning practicing physician, author of the book Proof Positive, and also president of Weimar University. For decades, he has focused on the relationship between lifestyle, immunity, mental health, and disease prevention. Dr. Nedley, we're grateful you could take time out of your busy schedule to join us today. Well, thank you. It's an important topic and thanks for inviting me.

[00:03:26]>> Let's start with HANA virus.

[00:03:31]Dr. Schwelt, we'll start with you. What exactly is Hont virus and tell us a little bit about some of the news that's breaking right now about this outbreak?

[00:03:42]Yeah. So, hto virus is a virus. It's an RNA virus and it uh infects people. It has actually two types to be aware of.

[00:03:53]There is the haunt strain or or version that infects people in Europe, Asia, Africa and it's still a deadly disease but only kills probably about 1 to 20% of people who are infected and it typically affects the kidneys. Whereas in North and South America, it's a much deadlier disease with mortality rates up to 38% and it affects the lungs. So because it affects the lungs, it can cause people to not be able to breathe.

[00:04:24]The lungs fill up with fluid, sometimes bloody fluid, and they go into shock, which basically means that they don't have a very good blood pressure. Now, generally speaking, all of this throughout the entire globe, this type of virus is only contracted from the droppings, urine, or saliva from rodents. But there is a very particular strain in South America, specifically in Argentina and Chile called the Andes version or the Andes strain of haunt virus, which has been reported back since the 1990s as going from person to person. And uh as it turns out, there was a a ship called the Hondas. This is a uh a ship that went through into South uh to uh the South Pole and then through the South Atlantic. um it left Argentina um in South Argentina next to to the South Pole uh on April 1st and there was a passenger who came down with symptoms on April 6th. Now that's notable because typically the incubation period the period between when you get infected and show symptoms is usually more around like a week up to 8 weeks. And so because of this, scientists believe that he may have brought the infection onto the ship. Um, interestingly, he had visited that area of of South America for weeks prior to getting onto that ship and he was a bird watcher. Uh, so he was around in areas that are typical for kind of rare and exotic birds. He's originally from Holland. So he and his wife got onto the ship and unfortunately he deteriorated rapidly and actually died on the ship. uh which was very shocking for uh the people on the ship um especially his wife and unfortunately they didn't understand what was going on at this time. Uh they didn't understand that this was a virus and uh there was a lot of consoling and close contact with the with the wife. She uh became ill herself and when she was led off with with her husband's body I believe in St. Helina which ironically is the same island that Napoleon was exiled to. um the only way that she could get home was through South Africa. Of course, uh the airline goes through Johannesburg. So, she flew on a plane from from the uh St. Helina to Johannesburg. And then when she was making the connection to get on to the next flight, her illness was rapidly progressing. They could see that on the second flight and they decided that she would not be able to make that flight. Well, she collapsed in the airport. And by this point, um there was a third person who had become ill. he was already there in Johannesburg. They had made the diagnosis of haunt virus at that point and they were able to quickly trace this back and figure out what had happened. So what I think is going on here and what a lot of experts believe is an unfortunate set of events where a human being came into contact with a very rare strain of haunt virus and brought it onto a a situation which was a ship where people were in very close quarters and that was able to spread rapidly throughout uh the ship. The good news that I have today, so far, even though this is a long incubation period, there have been no cases at all of any confirmed positives on anybody that was not on that ship. So, we have not seen this spread beyond that first um that first barrier, if you will, those people that were on that ship. So, the type of symptoms that we're talking about is GI symptoms, and that leads quickly to respiratory symptoms and then collapse.

[00:08:04]There is really uh not a lot of treatment for this um in terms of FDA approval for vaccines or medicines that have been shown to work. But as we'll talk about later today, there are some interesting things that should be looked at and things that we can discuss about what could happen generally speaking if if this was something that you would face.

[00:08:23]>> So the Andes variant is the one that's transmitted human to human. Correct. And that's believed to be the one Yes. There is some controversy about that. Um there was a review where they reviewed the the previous papers and they said you know this is not really great evidence. Um but it is uh out of all I think what what is not controversial is that this is the only one where it is being debated that there is humanto human contact and the experts currently based on what they're seeing now believe that there was humanto human contact and and uh transmission. What is the level of contagiousness uh compared to like CO?

[00:09:06]>> So this is >> Yeah. So this is not like CO which uh simply by breathing the same air as someone that has CO you could catch this. This is uh requiring close contact um so exchange of bodily fluids things of that nature. So it's much more difficult to transmit this type of a virus than it would be for instance the influenza virus or or co. Um you can imagine uh the consolation that must have been going on on that ship. Um we I I can only speculate but people who are generally from Europe uh France etc. uh culturally even under um in a setting where there are strangers if there's a lot of emotional distress they may greet each other with a kiss on the cheek um and things of that nature. Of course, pure speculation, but it's hard to say exactly what was going on without talking to people that were there on the ship.

[00:09:55]>> And the mortality rate for HANA virus is what is it 30?

[00:10:00]>> Up to 40%. Yeah.

[00:10:02]>> Yeah.

[00:10:03]>> Up to 40%. So, are there cases at the time of this recording in the United States?

[00:10:12]>> Yeah. So, there are cases in the United States. Uh, all of them are from the ship. They were passengers on the ship.

[00:10:19]Some of them are quarantining. Um the term that we use when we don't know uh if they are infected is quarantine. The the term that we use when we know that they're infected is isolation. So some are in isolation, some are in quarantine. Those that uh came from the ship and did and and had no symptoms uh they have been put into quarantine. Some of them have been let loose uh after being tested. Those that are tested and positive or having symptoms are are in isolation.

[00:10:46]>> Okay. So in summary, basically this is a a virus that gets transmitted via droppings of rodents and you typically that's the way it's transmitted, but there's an Andes variant that goes from the rodent droppings to the person and then it can be transmitted human to human. And this variant is believed to be the one that's currently the one that killed some of these individuals on this ship.

[00:11:14]they have sequenced the virus and it is exactly the Andes strain and uh it looks very similar to the uh to the Andes strain that they have documented in the past. So it's it hasn't changed dramatically.

[00:11:26]>> Okay. Okay. Dr. Dr. Nedley, you have any other comments on the haunt virus in this regard about maybe we can make the transition to interferon in this case about what what exactly is interferon and can interferon help with viruses?

[00:11:49]>> Yeah. So, well, I would mention that just remainion what Dr. Schwelt said.

[00:11:55]Some people think this is the new COVID happening, but its contagious rate and how it's transmitted is not going to produce the COVID pandemic like uh you know effect. So this isn't going to be a repeat of COVID per se, but we really don't know because it's early on exactly how many people are going to get this uh from human to human etc. So, it's still good to uh prepare our immune systems.

[00:12:25]One of the things that I was uh and Dr. Schwel was the same way when COVID was breaking out. We need to do everything possible to have our innate immunity work well.

[00:12:38]>> Yes.

[00:12:39]>> And uh it's the secondary immunity that sometimes causes our own death. And so, if our innate immunity is weak, then that's going to be a problem. And uh and one of the things that's surfacing that's really helpful in regards to this virus is interferon. And of course that's important in other viruses as well. And so uh there are some things that we can do to um help that out. But uh maybe Dr. Schwelt would like to go over some of the evidence first on interfuron and and h virus.

[00:13:11]>> Yeah. Yeah. So this is something that uh is a recurring theme. uh if you look into SARS KV2 the virus that caused the co 19 pandemic if you look into h virus specifically the Andes strain as well and even if you look into Ebola and we'll talk about that probably later all of these viruses that can cause issues in the human body has to have some way of getting around the body's defense mechanisms uh look our immune system is so well designed that there is no virus that can get by it without disabling ling our ability to to fight it. And interferon more than any other target is the one that is targeted the most because it is the most effective and it is the most broad. It's part of the innate immune system. It's the immune part of your immune system that looks at things generally. So in other words, the virus can mutate and it's still not going to escape interferon. In fact, we can talk about different viruses and still interferon has a great effect.

[00:14:14]There there is a particular gene in haunt virus which is specifically designed to countermeasure against interferon. So interferon is a a protein that is essential. Think of it as the alarm bell. If you're in a bank and you're a bank robbers coming in and you reach under the table to hit that alarm bell to call the police and security.

[00:14:33]That's what interferon is. And so when hivirus or SARS KV2 or Ebola is infecting the body, it's able to turn off that alarm. it's able to infect many more cells than it would normally do.

[00:14:47]And then when the adaptive immune system comes online, usually about 7 days later, it comes with all of the antibbody force that you would imagine it does. And because there's so many cells that are infected with this virus, the response is so overwhelming that it can cause uh uh huge amounts of inflammation, what some people call cytoine storm. And this is really what causes, as Dr. Nedley mentioned the uh the secondary attack on the immune system. So really what we should be doing is is focusing on ways that we can increase our ability to make our own interferon. I'll and I'll just tell you one brief study and then I'll I'll ask Dr. Nelly to join in. There was a a study that was done and it was published in the New England Journal of Medicine.

[00:15:33]So one of the top medical journals and this is uh this was a study that was done in SARS KV2 where they took a single subcutaneous injection of interferon. They gave it to patients who had come down with COVID and it was able to drop in half the number of patients requiring emergency room visits or even hospitalization. Now I say that that was just one subcutaneous injection of interferon and it did had that much of an effect in reducing the uh the negative effects of COVID. But we know that there are ways of increasing our own interferon levels and I'll I'll ask Dr. Nedley to jump in.

[00:16:14]>> Yeah. So there are several things that can certainly help our innate immunity.

[00:16:20]uh and as mentioned interferons part of the innate immunity but I'd like to before actually specifically going into that uh talk a little bit of review on COVID and Dr. Schwalt, feel free to jump in here, but we know that very few people died of COVID alone. They had other issues that made it far more likely that they were going to succumb and get severe COVID. And um you know, the first set of death certificates the CDC reviewed, I think they could only find five or six% that just had COVID as a sole cause. And even out of those, those are just filled out by doctors.

[00:17:01]There was a a a wondering whether the doctors were too much in a hurry because there were so many COVID deaths that they weren't putting the other secondary causes there. So there may it might be even less than that. But then there was a uh a study uh that the CDC also highlighted in regards to admission to the hospital. So when you get admitted to the hospital, it's more than just mild COVID. uh we're talking moderate to severe. And they looked at the comorbidities there. And those comorbidities um revealed something that hadn't been revealed before. And that is we all knew that obesity was something that um does seem to hurt viral immunity. We knew that with the flu. We knew that with COVID. And the media was even broadcasting obesity as being a major comorbidity. But this one they didn't really broadcast. And it turns out almost the same as obesity was anxiety.

[00:18:02]>> Anxiety does suppress the immune system significantly even through its neuroimmunology pathways. And the more anxious people were in regards to COVID before contraction, the higher the likelihood that they were actually going to die from it. And of course, you might imagine why the media could be conflicted about that because so much of what they were doing was was increasing anxiety and and maybe adding to it. Now, we need to be informed. We need to be intelligent about it. So, we we do need to form, you know, have that um uh information to help us. but they weren't telling people what they could actually do to help uh their own innate immunity and that part was being left out. So, it just looked like total victimization and random killings. And that would be of course causing anyone that's focusing in on the news um uh you know concern and increasing their anxiety levels. And so when we're talking about these things, we're actually talking about things that can help your innate immunity. And what we're not trying to do is cause anxiety uh for you uh in thinking that there is really nothing that you can do. But one of those areas that we have found that particularly help uh interfere on um is fever. We have tended to when individuals get fevers in the hospital and other places, we have a tendency to give Tylenol uh and to try to lower the fever. Obviously, it makes them feel better, >> but it's actually hurting the interferon response and the innate immunity. Now there are times when we do want to lower the body temperature and you know if it's a if it's a child you can get febrile induced seizures and things like that. Um but you know adults don't normally have febrile seizures. Um and even fevers up to 104 can certainly increase um your inner furon levels significantly. In fact Dr. Schwelt, is there kind of a a what would you say that effect is in regards to how high the fever is and how much interfuron uh we produce?

[00:20:22]>> Well, there's two studies that really inform my thoughts on that. There was one study that showed that when they took lymphosytes out of the body, they put it onto a petri dish and they tricked the lymphosytes into thinking that there was an infection there by adding something called LPS, lipopolysaccharide.

[00:20:39]they were able to elicit a tenfold response in interferon by taking the temperature up to 39 degrees Celsius. So that is uh approximately 102.7.

[00:20:51]However, um there was a much more invivo model that was looked at um in hamsters and and they by the way have exactly the same temperature as we do as humans. So it was quite interesting. There is a the the regulation of interferon is known as the stat jack pathway. Stackjack 2 basically. And what they were able to show at each of the regulatory points simply going from 37° C to 38° C which by the way is approximately 986 to 100.4 which is what we call a fever. that was enough to dramatically increase the throughput and the production of interferon. So even even reducing a fever a low-grade fever that is between 986 and 100.4 can actually reduce the amount of interferon. So we don't have to two points. We don't have to increase the temperature that much apparently to get that kind of a response. And number two, even the artificial reduction uh a little bit even at a low-grade fever can have a dramatic response in terms of reducing the amount of interferon.

[00:22:04]>> So let me just see if I can summarize.

[00:22:08]Interferon is a part critical part of the innate immune system and viruses are kind of engineered in a way to shut down the interferon channel so that they can do what they do and even a moderate degree in temperature raising increases the level of interferon. Is that what I'm hearing?

[00:22:33]>> Absolutely. like like one degree Celsius can can dramatically increase the the levels of interferon in the body. I see.

[00:22:42]I see. So I think of my kids, you know, when they get fever, they're they're not they don't like it. And it's the temptation as a parent to run to the Tylenol and, you know, ibuprofen because you want them to feel better. So what you're saying is for for low-grade fevers even up to like what' you say 104 u it's actually a good thing that the body's raising the temperature and is it slowing down the recovery process if we give them Tylenol for like a low-grade fever? Yeah. Um there are studies uh that have shown and of course this is not direct randomized control trials but they have studies that have associated the reduction of temperature with Tylenol to increasing the length of the infection. It haven't has even also increased the risk of of pneumonia complications such as an empaime that's where pus is basically around the lung.

[00:23:36]Um there's well doumented uh cases of this. Um we have to to balance that. On the other side, there there are people that we would be concerned about if they had very high fevers. Um so when whenever you re raise the body temperature, your metabolism speeds up, your heart rate speeds up. So we've got to be careful there with people who might have arrhythmias. Uh people might have seizures if if the if the temperature goes up. I have never personally seen a problem up to 102 degrees. Um maybe even 103. I think once you get beyond that, you may be into a a zone there where you have to be careful.

[00:24:13]>> Okay.

[00:24:13]>> So, uh again, none of this is medical advice because a lot of this depends on the individual, who they are, and whether or not they can tolerate this type of temperature.

[00:24:22]>> Yes. Disclaimer, please consult with your doctor. So, >> is they said 101 102 and then is relatively safe, but please consult your doctor. 103 104 is is more dangerous. We actually have induced 104 degrees fevers here in order to try to get a response.

[00:24:42]So it's called fever therapy.

[00:24:44]>> Wow.

[00:24:44]>> There are people that have severe um chronic fatigue. I had a a patient recently >> that uh came through our program and we turn you know it was our depression and anxiety recovery program. Severe fatigue which was one of the symptoms of depression.

[00:24:59]>> I see.

[00:25:00]>> Apathy um couldn't hold a job anymore.

[00:25:03]And uh of course we leave no stone unturned and we found out that she did have a chronic Epstein bar viral infection >> and so we have um treated that with fever therapy in the past and we gave her that option and she said I'd like to start now in the depression and anxiety recovery program. Let's just do that.

[00:25:21]Well, there is a there is a risk as Dr. Schwelt mentions um because when you have 104 degrees fever even though it might be 20 minutes it'll wipe you out the rest of the day. So it it didn't really help her energy during that time.

[00:25:35]Now the next day she would recover and be able to do very well.

[00:25:39]>> But um the chronic EBV infection was totally eradicated. Uh she came out of this program just um on fire and excited as far as her energy level, got her job back. Uh all of those things, but she credits the the fever therapy. She had been to other doctors about this uh etc. But just every other day inducing 20 minutes 104 degree fever made a big difference in her life with just uh four or five treatments.

[00:26:07]>> How do you induce a fever?

[00:26:10]>> Well, uh you warm them up with with you know gradual increase in the warm water.

[00:26:16]So you put them in water. You put them in water. Yeah. You could also use a sauna.

[00:26:21]>> Okay. So how hot would the water want to be if I wanted to do that at home and I wanted to raise my body temperature to get the interferon? Yeah. Well, you have to be careful there as well. Uh because you want to not burn your skin, >> right?

[00:26:35]>> So, um normally we're not having to, you know, raise it much above 106 degrees.

[00:26:43]You know, it's a gradual process. We're not going up to 104 right away. And so, um normally it's about an hour process to get them there and then to maintain it for about 20 minutes.

[00:26:54]>> 20 minutes. Is is there research indicating the benefits of heat or hydrotherapy on the production of interferon?

[00:27:04]>> Yeah, I wish there I wish there were. Um I wish there were more studies on this.

[00:27:09]Um what we do have is historical evidence of this. Um fairly good over a hundred years ago >> during the uh 1918 pandemic and also in other areas as well. Let me briefly mention that we we do have a study uh or at least a a case presentation of a number of cases that was done by a Nobel Prize winner in 1927, Dr. Yore.

[00:27:36]>> Um he was a psychiatrist that saw that people who were infected with neurosyphilis in his sane asylum got better when they had fevers. So he did a uh he did a case series where he infected them on purpose with malaria which you may know gives very high fevers >> and at the time they had the treatment for malaria which was quinine. And uh after several uh attempts or several um days of this these patients got high fevers and the neurosyis which honestly was is a bacterial infection that we treat today with penicellin.

[00:28:10]This is before penicellin. um it it completely cured them and he was able to cure them of the malaria that he had given them and these people were were healed and and out of the Assane asylum for that work he got the Nobel Prize and until even the 1950s >> the standard of care even in the antibiotic world was this type of fever heat therapy and he used malaria but other people uh came on to this and they used heat cabinets uh baths as Dr. Dr. Nedley just talked to you about uh even injection of foreign proteins to elicit a an immune response. So this type of idea of of eliciting a heightened response from the immune system is not a new idea that we're bringing up here.

[00:28:55]This has actually been used successfully in the past and actually recognized globally as as the standard of care. Um, there was a nice writeup that was done by Wells Rubble, who was the medical director of the New England Sanitarium, and he pulled data from the 10 sanitariums in the Northeast of the United States during 1918. And he published in a periodical called Life and Health, May 1st, 1919, what his results were using simple hydrotherapy and rational therapy that he called it.

[00:29:29]and he compared it to the state-of-the-art uh army hospitals which were using the the new medication that had been discovered by Bayer called aspirin and their recovery rates there.

[00:29:41]They had about a sixth the the case fatality rate in the uh in the sanitariums and the major reason was this. You know, if someone came down with pneumonia in either of those places, either the the sanitarium or the army hospital, the mortality rate was 40 to 50%. And it didn't matter where you were because they didn't have antibiotics. where the real key was and this was demonstrated very clearly by Wells Rubble's writeup was at the beginning of the illness if they quickly got on it and they gave the hydrotherapy the number of patients that went on to develop the the deadly secondary pneumonia was much reduced compared to what they were experiencing in the army hospitals. So we've seen the data historically. We've seen the data in multiple diseases. We have now the benchtop studies that show in fact how the heat therapy works. And we know for a fact that this very same uh um protein which is interferon is integral in what the viruses do to us. I think it would be wonderful to do a randomized placeboc control trial or at least a uh an open label trial where we could see whether or not this type of therapy works in people who have this disease.

[00:30:59]I I used to live in Arkansas and I would visit hot springs and there's quite a few of these bathous that are there and I was surprised that the US government put in an army hospital. It's no longer functioning right now, but they put an R&B hospital right there next to the hot springs. And it was surprising the notable individuals that would visit those hot springs for treatment. It seemed like hydrotherapy was a lot more practiced in medical circles and it seems like the proliferation of antibiotics has kind of gone and caused us to shift away from that paradigm.

[00:31:40]>> Yeah. It's like Dr. Nedley said earlier in the program, when we have a problem, we we need to bring everything to the table. Um, here's an analogy. If I'm a plumber and I'm going to a house uh where there's a leak and I don't know if they have electricity or not, I'm going to bring my power tools and I'm also going to bring my hand tools. I don't know what I'm going to expect, but if I don't have those tools with me, then I'm not going to be able to use them.

[00:32:04]>> I see. So, is how much increase of interferon are we looking at? Let's say hypothetically 1° Celsius increase in body temperature. Have they have there been studies showing how much of increase in in interferon that we have as a result? Yeah. So I could show you a graph that literally is flat until it goes from you know 380 to 385 and then once it hits 39 there's a 10-fold increase. So it's like a switch. It's not really like a it's not like a linear increase with temperature. Once you hit the switch and you turn on the innate immune system, that's when it comes on and quite high.

[00:32:45]>> So, it's not it's not like a gradual it's like once you hit that threshold, it's a it's a spike. And you said 10x increase.

[00:32:53]>> Yeah, there was a t-fold 10-fold increase in that study.

[00:32:56]>> Oh, that's amazing. So there are some things that can increase interfuron five-fold.

[00:33:04]>> You know garlic for instance a couple of grams of you know of the the raw uh garlic has been shown to increase interfuron levels in some in serum in humans etc. There are some um uh you know exercise for instance particularly if you're a good avid exerciser prior to getting an infection it's that's been shown to be able to help your viral immunity and one of the ways it's thought of is you're increasing >> body temperature >> um your inner furon >> um that way um during COVID they actually looked at a study British Medical Journal published it but looking at diets in >> COVID Um, and um, the best diet to be on uh, prior to getting a COVID infection was plant-based. You were 60% over 60% less likely to not have a moderate or severe infection. The next best diet was a pesco vegetarian, not as good as a plant-based diet, but the that's plant-based plus fish. And the worst diet was a low carb, high protein, highfat diet, what we call the keto diet. and they had like a 250% increased risk of moderate to severe COVID infection. And so um uh even uh what diet we're on prior to getting this infection can make a huge difference in regards to our outcome whether we're exercising. And I don't know, I'm interested Dr. Schwel, we haven't talked about this ahead of time, but I don't know about infrared light. Would that be theoretically helpful with the viruses um that we're talking about here today?

[00:34:48]>> Yeah, absolutely. Um so there is uh there is a another switch that uh turns on and off inflammation called the tolike receptor 4 and tolike receptor 4 we know for a fact that infrared light which can actually penetrate into the body deeply and actually has been shown to come out the other side in a paper that was published by Glenn Jeffrey just last year in nature scientific reports.

[00:35:14]Um there's a there's a paper that shows that infrared light can actually shut down tolike receptor 4 and the inflammation that is associated with toll-like receptor 4. Um so this was a very interesting hypothesis and they wanted to know whether or not infrared light could help outcomes in COVID and they did a randomized placeboc control trial in 30 patients in Brazil. They built a jacket with infrared light inside and uh they gave it to them only 15 minutes a day and it was a very low level of infrared light. Of course, they couldn't see it because it was out of the visible spectrum. But those patients that got this infrared light could uh over a period of 7 days at the end they could breathe better. Their oxygen improved more quickly. Their heart rates and respiratory rates normalized faster.

[00:36:06]But the most amazing statistic was that instead of spending an average of 12 days in the hospital, which is what those patients that had the jackets on but didn't have it turned on, spent, those that had it turned on spent only 8 days. So there was a reduction of hospitalization of 4 days. Now, this is just not a one-off. There's another study looking at people in the intensive care unit regardless of their diagnosis.

[00:36:33]So in other words, these are people there for whatever reason in the intensive care unit when they got infrared light. They also uh were out of the unit 30% faster than those that did not get the infrared light. So um this I believe we have evidence that shows that infrared light improves on inflammation and I think we also have evidence that this is not specific to just co 19.

[00:36:58]>> I see.

[00:37:00]So is there any virus that is not affected by interferon? How effective is interferon against viruses?

[00:37:11]Well, um I'll just say this. Uh you know, Dr. Nedley just gave us an example of of a single patient that had Epstein bar and uh it seemed that the hydrotherapy probably through other mechanisms as well, but certainly through interferon seemed to do to do wonders there. Um, I'll remind the audience that um, it wasn't too long ago that the actual standard of care for chronic hepatitis C infection, by the way, this is an infection that we were not able to ever cure. We always thought that this would be a chronic infection, but we were able to cure people of chronic hepatitis C with prolonged interferon uh, administration.

[00:37:49]>> Wow.

[00:37:50]>> So, I I think that interferon is is quite amazing.

[00:37:53]>> I see. So when we talk about innate immunity, it is in contrast to another type of immunity. What's the other type again? I forgot.

[00:38:03]>> Yeah, adaptive immunity. And this is the immunity that we were all became familiar with when we started to talk about vaccines because this is the part of the immunity that is uh it takes a it takes time for it to to to rev up.

[00:38:17]You've you've got and this is the most amazing thing that I I learned in medical school when I learned this.

[00:38:22]Inside of your body at birth, you have all of the lymphosytes that you will ever need that you will need to have to encounter any foreign protein that you will ever have in your body for the rest of your life. And what happens here?

[00:38:37]Imagine they're in a warehouse uh like an Amazon warehouse stored away somewhere. when when the viral protein comes into your body whatever it is uh there is a there is a um a registration system that occurs through te- cells and all sorts of complex mechanisms that goes through the warehouse to find that one cell that can neutralize this one protein and so that takes about 7 days to find it to amplify it to clone it to give it uh the amount of cells copies that it needs to mount a response if you want to think about it this Think about the innate immune system as the air force. They're in there very quickly. They can hit some targets. They can uh immobilize the the enemy, but it's not really going to do the ground job that you need to do to mop up an infection. The the adaptive immunity is like the army that marches in. It's the boots on the ground, and it takes time for that to happen. You can see that if you don't have a good air force that the job of the army is going to be much bigger and there's going to be a lot more um fatalities if you don't have a good air force. And that's exactly what happens in these viral infections when they when you don't have a good innate immune response. And then 7 days later you have this massive inflammatory reaction where things are being destroyed on the ground if you will. The boots on the ground cause a lot of damage and that's what ends people up in the ICU.

[00:40:01]>> I see. So, so >> sometimes it's called the secondary immunity. You know, you have your front lines, >> right?

[00:40:08]>> Which is your innate immunity and then the adaptive is the is the secondary.

[00:40:12]>> I see. So, if you have like a baseline of interferon before the infection, the analogy is like your air force is in a lot better shape >> to to be deal with the infection. What What about if you're already getting symptoms? Can you do something like hydro increase your body temperature to to to help you recover quicker?

[00:40:35]>> Absolutely.

[00:40:36]>> Okay.

[00:40:37]>> Yeah. When you start getting these symptoms, that would be the time.

[00:40:41]>> Okay.

[00:40:41]>> Yeah.

[00:40:43]>> Yeah. And and that's important to to highlight because really the symptoms if you uh if you think about it, so when we were putting people on interferon for hepatitis C and you were to ask them how do you feel? they would say, "I feel like I've got the flu." The interferon itself causes these flu-l like symptoms.

[00:41:03]And and that's the issue that we have is that all of these all of these viruses, whether it be COVID or haunt virus or Ebola, they they all cause some degree of interferon elevation, but not that bad. And so if you were to talk to some of these people that get haunt virus or Ebola, they'll have these feelings like a general flu for some period of time and it goes on for a week or maybe even two weeks and then all of a sudden the crash happens and that's when the secondary or adaptive immune system comes on. So what's going on there is that the innate immune system is sort of limping along and it's causing some symptoms but it's not able to do what it really needs to do. This is why I really advocate for people if you feel something coming on, you have no idea what that thing is.

[00:41:51]>> And really, you should treat it as if it is, you know, a serious uh condition.

[00:41:56]This is the reason why I personally whenever I feel like I'm coming down with something, I try to uh stop it immediately as possible. And that's when I jump into the hot tub or a sauna. Um, and I may even do contrast showers on a regular basis. I know we talked about that. Dr. and Nedley talked about the contrast showers and specifically the protocol that they have there at Weimar University um where I was doing this because your your infection is going to start before you even know it >> and so if you're doing something especially when there's a high risk of transmission of a virus uh this is something that I think could be done fairly easily.

[00:42:31]>> Okay. Is there a resource they can go to and I think we can put it in the notes section a a link to a new start place where they can do hydrotherapy but Dr. Dr. Schwelt, I saw on MedCram you mentioned another resource. It was like an encyclopedia of hydro where they use some of the >> Yes.

[00:42:49]>> things I believe it's traditionalhydrotherapy.com.

[00:42:54]I I could be wrong. It could be traditional hydrotherapy.org, but try either one. So, uh, Bruce Thompson, who who is a physiootherapist in Australia, has really dedicated his whole life looking at the protocols of of John Harvey Kellogg, who was the medical director of the Paddle Creek Sanitarium and really the a major innovator uh, in in this type of of therapy. He wrote, in fact, a 1,000page book on hydrotherapy.

[00:43:21]So, what Bruce has done is gone through and looked at all of these protocols and he's categorized them on the website. I believe he even has a letter on the website uh to your physician that you can print out and and tell them what it is that you want to do. Look, we're we're really and I've talked to Dr. Nedley about this and I' I'd like him to sort of chime in as well. We're not here to bring up things that uh you do uh you know in lie of standard of care. We're here to give you more tools that you can also practice at the same time uh that does not run counterdistinction to what uh the standard of care is as well.

[00:43:57]Yeah, absolutely. Uh the problem is the standard of care and the viruses we're talking about Ebola and HANA virus is basically supportive care, right?

[00:44:07]>> Uh there isn't really anything that we know of um that's going to really make a big difference as far as giving them some sort of specialized IV pharmaceutical uh agent. Of course, the pharmaceuticals are are going to really try uh to see if there's anything out there that might have an antiviral response. Uh but the but the things that we're talking about are likely to have, you know, as good or better than what they're going to come up with. And but it doesn't mean it's either or. But often some of the things that we're talking about are um are actually minimized um to um a patients. uh it certainly was minimized during the COVID pandemic. Uh you know, the media was not wanting to talk about any new start principles that could potentially help this virus. Uh they actually kind of criticized people that were doing that despite the the evidence of how effective um these things could be. And we don't want to get into a situation like that again. And so that's that's why I appreciate you u um you know deciding to do a podcast uh on this whole area because hunt virus and Ebola could be coming our way.

[00:45:20]>> Yeah. It's let's say a virus has like 50% mortality rate. You can look at the other way too. It means that 50% are not going to die from it. And is that related to interferon and their innate immune system?

[00:45:36]>> Yes. Exactly. And this is how I see it as well. So if something is working in some people, let's take a look at that and see if we can amplify that. We're not saying here that this is going to be your get out of jail free card. What we're saying here is that if we can tip the scales into our favor, if we can see if we can move the needle, then that can have a potentially a tremendous effect.

[00:45:58]The other thing that I I would add too is this. If there were a pharmacological uh solution to this problem, um all you would need to have is the perception in fact that it is a solution to the problem. And you can imagine what would already happen when you're talking about a 40% mortality rate. Um it's possible and and let's just back up here. Uh CO was less than 1% uh case fatality rate.

[00:46:24]So you can only imagine the situation that we're talking about at at a 40% case fatality rate. you're almost assured that everybody would know at least one person that had already died from the virus. It would become very real. Um people would probably not go to work. I question how the current supply chain would be able to deliver that type of a pharmaceutical um to a hospital for instance. So we're talking about a completely different scenario here. And this is the reason why I I really believe that now that we have the chance to do this. Number one, people should learn about this type of therapy, they should learn how to apply it themselves and to other people and their loved ones that are around them. And number two, so long as we have scientists that are curious um to look at this, I think it should be studied. I I I don't know exactly what the best protocol would be for hydrotherapy. I don't I don't think we know that. I I know how to do it. Uh it would be interesting to see number one whether it does work uh and number two uh whether or not uh it uh there are protocols that can show well first of all I do believe that it works but I I think we also need randomized control trials that can demonstrate that as well and I think that would be a good thing.

[00:47:38]Um the problem is is that when we have the opportunity to study patients like that it's not going to be under ideal conditions. So, the time to do that is actually now. And of course, it's going to be hard to find funding for that because what money is there in hot water and towels, right? It's not much, but it certainly could save uh some some lives, >> right? So you're saying that if we were to have a virus with 40% mortality and then the the level of contagiousness of like COVID, it would be a disaster for a supply chain chain and the ability to even get these vaccines would be very difficult. So there's an incentive for I guess there's always an incentive for innate immunity and any way we can boost boost the immune system before we get exposed the better. So lifestyle things like Dr. Nedley mentioned sunlight and also raising your body temperature in this way.

[00:48:33]Yeah, we're the only um uh accredited university in the world that we know of that has an exclusive uh plant-based cafeteria >> and during COVID, although you know CO did come through this campus several waves. Um no one ever got hospitalized.

[00:48:53]Uh no one ever died from it. Although we had an individual here who was um in their 50s, severe diabetic, severe hypertensive patient that got it that I thought might die. He was from another country here and he refused to go to the hospital. He was getting hypoxic, having all of the the signs. And of course, we isolated him and had nurses that specialize in our hydrotherapy aspect of things come in and give him hydrotherapy.

[00:49:27]We use some other modalities too to try to help the immune system. But with the hydrotherapy aspects, he will credit that those nurses coming in and giving him hydro.

[00:49:37]>> Wow.

[00:49:37]>> He completely turned around. He recovered. He's not having any um long COVID symptoms. He's very effective and and productive and he credits the fact that he came to Weimar during that pandemic. He thinks if he had been anywhere else and got it with all of his co-orbidities, he was obese as well >> uh with all of those coorbidities that he would have likely lost his life.

[00:50:00]>> And um so there's there's there's evidence. I know it's just case reports and those sorts of things, but there's there's solid evidence that what we're talking about could be very helpful uh in the next viral pandemic.

[00:50:14]>> Wow.

[00:50:16]>> And and Dr. Nedley's story just uh reminds me of of another uh story as well. This was the Hutchinson 7th Day Adventist Seminary during the 1918 pandemic where everybody was under one roof. If you can imagine a nightmare for influenza and how fast it would go.

[00:50:33]Literally all of the students were housed into one building at the seminary. And uh they held about 120 students. 60 or 90 of them came down with symptoms. And there was a wonderful report that was written up about what they did and the fact that not a single student, this is at a time by the way, where literally millions were being swept into the grave. Not a single student at that institution became what we would call severely ill. One of the major things that they did at that institution was hydrotherapy. And at the end of the article, they did exactly what Dr. Nedley did. Uh they thanked the the the wonderful staff that prepared the what they call the fermentations and uh and and and documented this as an amazing uh story about what happened there in Hutchinson, Minnesota.

[00:51:22]>> Wow.

[00:51:23]So increasing your body temperature one degrees Celsius 10 times more interferon as a result and you can raise that through water hydrotherapy. Let's talk about Ebola.

[00:51:37]This this puts the fear in people. When you mention Ebola, what is Ebola and why does it generate such intense fear globally? Yeah. So, this is a a vir actually there's a number of viruses that can cause Ebola.

[00:51:54]So, Ebola is a disease, but there's a number of viruses in that family. Um, the the ones that we're used to is the uh the the Zire Ebola virus. There's the Sudan Ebola virus. This one that we're seeing currently here in uh early to mid 2026 is the the Bundab Boujo uh virus uh that's causing it. That's that's important to understand because if you do research on Ebola on the internet, you might find things that say, "Oh, there's a monoconal antibbody, there's a vaccine for it." Unfortunately, those treatments and interventions are not for this current virus. It's for the Zahir virus. So, for the one that's currently going on right now in northeastern um uh Congo and into Uganda, uh this is this is one that really we have no treatment for. It's purely supportive therapy. Um the numbers are growing every day. The last I heard yesterday, it was 88 dead um with 300 uh possible suspected infections. It's now gone much over that and it's growing.

[00:52:54]And the experts that have dealt with this before are telling us that they believe that this is actually far bigger than they are uh than they have actually accounted for. Um they're probably some subaccute infections. This the the uh the incubation period here is anywhere from 2 days to 3 weeks. So this is a fairly quick it's fairly large um and again the the mortality rate is somewhere around where h virus is so 30 to 50%. Uh but again if you look at the at the data um again it affects the uh the uh interferon system it uh suppresses it and it's able to get a foothold and and do its dirty work. What typically happens is you feel myalgas uh for uh days to weeks and then it descends very quickly into basically bleeding and bruising. You go into like a DIC uh which stands for diffuse intravascular coagulation where basically the clotting system doesn't work very well and uh people pass away and die as I understand there is a missionary a United States uh American missionary that has come down and has tested positive. He is now in uh in the UK, I'm sorry, in Germany and they they're treating him there as well as isolating and quarantining his family, his wife and they have four kids. So this is um this is a situation where in fact that the state department has stopped flights that are coming from uh from that area that region of the world to the United States. And of course, this is happening at a time when literally the whole world is going to be descending upon North America because of the World Cup that's coming up shortly.

[00:54:36]And so there's a lot of uh things that are in play right now. You're also having the uh the issue with uh jet fuel shortages because of the issue going on in in the street of Hormuz. So a lot of things are happening all at the same time.

[00:54:50]>> So how contagious is Ebola? Because I remember looking at videos at the last outbreak a few years ago. These people look like they're in hazmat suits. It's it looks like the it's radioactive.

[00:55:05]They're all suited up. It seems like it's highly contagious.

[00:55:09]>> Well, I was going to say it's not um not quite the contagious level to my knowledge in regards to COVID because you you have to, you know, have those body secretions um that are changed. And so, um, I don't know of any, um, airborne, uh, Ebola, uh, and so this would be body contact. So, from from the stool itself, um, you know, having sexual relations with someone with Ebola would be high risk. Um, you know, where you're sharing secretions by deep kissing. Um, things of this nature are going to be spreading it. Uh, but not just being in the same room with an Ebola patient. um per se.

[00:55:52]Is that your understanding as well, Roger?

[00:55:55]>> Yeah, exactly. Um one of the biggest risks that they are seeing here is that as the patient dies and the family is preparing the body, that's when they are coming into contact with the bodily fluids and and getting transmission.

[00:56:08]Unfortunately, the body is dead, but the virus particles are still infectious in the body fluids. Yeah. and and and they're this is I believe the 17th um uh Ebola outbreak that they've had in this part of the world. Um they this is interesting because this type of virus is not the type of virus that they the natural reservoir for this particular virus by the way is uh in actually fruit bats and um there is mining going on in this area. So, the spillover event could very well be that um there were fruit bats in a cave and uh and and some somebody got infected. And this is well known to go human to human as we know.

[00:56:49]But again, this is just pure speculation. We know that we know that the natural reservoir for this virus are in fruit bats. And um and of course those bats, you know, are they being eaten? Is there a natural spillover? We we don't know the answer to that. But um of course uh people eat all sorts of things. um all over the world.

[00:57:09]>> I see. So there's this thing about bush meat uh certain types of food that is eaten that is is there a link between it may not be in this particular outbreak but historically I may have read something and correct me if I'm wrong but there's a connection between eating bush meat and and Ebola or viruses of this type. Is that true?

[00:57:35]Well, in in general, um and this is one of the things that the Bible was very specific about in Leviticus, in general, um viruses that spread from human to human and become pandemic um are actually first um spread to humans by the eating of unclean meat. So when we get a viral infection from clean meat which can happen um we that is not spread readily uh at all from human to human. You just get it from that one transmission from animal to human. But with unclean meat it's a whole different aspect. You know the whole flu pandemic that was talked about earlier that was a pig source originally. Uh AIDS was a monkey source. These are unclean animals e either eating monkey or having sex with monkey >> uh and um and bats in Ebola that was SARS one they actually traced it to a civic cat and um and so these are unclean meats the Wuhan virus I don't know if you've um seen anything else to to counteract what I'm saying here Dr. Schwelp, but Wuhan, they're not sure. It could have been from the wet market. Uh they haven't traced it back um to that.

[00:58:54]Um but it also could have been produced in a laboratory, but that's not confirmed either. Uh and so um but um you know, one of the biblical imperatives if this could actually go worldwide would pre would really prevent uh the next pandemic. And I know we spend billions upon billions of dollars to try to contain pandemics when they come about.

[00:59:21]>> Um, and actually just educating the public on this and enforcing World Health Organization measures in regards to what we're eating.

[00:59:31]>> We don't need unclean meat in order to survive, you know, and uh and it is a reservoir for potentially the next pandemic. I think we could um go leaps and bounds ahead and not being able to be as fearful in regards to these pandemics. So yes, it was probably a fruit bat that was eaten. I know the the one of the Ebola outbreaks, they could even trace it to the to the young man who did that, >> uh etc. And so um uh this is um something I think the public is totally uneducated about. And um I think it would be worthwhile for all of us to uh to follow that biblical imperative in regards to protecting each other. It's a it's a you know it I would call it a much more responsible way of eating uh is to stay away from unclean meats.

[01:00:21]>> And that's just for clarification for those that may be watching. We're talking about Leviticus chapter 11 and the distinction between clean and unclean meat. And we're not talking about meat that's been washed versus unwashed, but we're talking about uh meat that was considered by God to be permissible.

[01:00:41]For instance, uh fins and scales for fish or chew the cut and have split hoofs. And when we deviate from that and eat food that has been pro prohibited in the book of Leviticus, we see some of these >> Yeah.

[01:00:54]>> fearful results like Ebola.

[01:00:56]>> Yeah. And we're unclean animals as well.

[01:00:58]That's why we we uh we we pick up those viruses much more easily and spread them uh from unclean animals. So >> I see.

[01:01:07]>> Yeah.

[01:01:07]>> I see. What I find interesting too, I was just going to add is is uh and correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a a very clear distinction that they were not only not to eat unclean meat, but not even to be nar or touch it. If they they would be unclean if they touched it. And I think that speaks a lot that was written down in a time before we understood viruses and bacteria as humans. But uh let's just say that that the uh the pe that that the entity that was giving the advice certainly did.

[01:01:36]>> Yes.

[01:01:37]>> Well, and there was even instruction in regards to handle handling the dead.

[01:01:41]>> Yes.

[01:01:42]>> In human beings, right? And if those instructions were followed as well, that could save a lot in regards to what we just talked about with Ebola because a lot of the the current Ebola is simply due to relatives and how they handled the person after they died.

[01:01:59]>> I see. I see.

[01:02:01]>> Yeah. They would they would have to make sure that they were uh uh isolated from community. I I think there was a lot of wisdom there about these viruses and and perhaps it stopped a lot of outbreaks.

[01:02:11]It's true.

[01:02:12]>> I see.

[01:02:14]um in Matthew chapter 24 and both of you Dr. Nedley and Dr. Schwelt are are students of the word and there's this statement by Jesus talking about pestilences which which is pandemics pandemics >> and Jesus indicates that the the frequency of things like n natural disasters earthquakes pestilences will increase as we approach the second coming of Jesus.

[01:02:45]And there is this this thing about fear uh and Dr. Nedley mentioned anxiety uh is not good for your immune system.

[01:02:56]What what would you say to a person that is seeing all this stuff happening in our world? I this this thing is I we're we're having this thing happening in Iran. There's all of this global unrest and then you add to it Ebola and HA virus and there may be someone watching out there that's like overwhelmed and we want to talk specifically to the spiritual component because we talked about the physical and this aspect of interferon and ways that we can raise the the fitness of our innate immune system. But what would you say to a person that's really struggling right now? They're watching the news. There's fear, pandemics, plagues.

[01:03:42]Is there hope and what can they do to combat the fear right now?

[01:03:49]>> Well, there certainly is hope. Uh I would encourage everyone to learn those new start principles and put them into practice now. There's no better time than now.

[01:03:57]>> Yes. Break down new start for those that are just watching. What is what is the acronym new start?

[01:04:02]>> The N is nutrition. The E is exercise, physical exercise. The W is water.

[01:04:07]That's the hydrotherapy, but also staying well hydrated. The S is sunlight, which we've already discussed.

[01:04:13]The T is temperance, which means staying away from things that are harmful and using in moderation the things that are healthy. Uh the A is air, fresh air, and the R is rest. We didn't talk about rest, but sleep also helps our innate immunity. Uh we know that if we're getting adequate sleep at the right time every day and also when we get it early to bed, early to rise, we double our more than double our melatonin output.

[01:04:40]Melatonin is the potent most potent antioxidant known to mankind. And melatonin has also been shown to be helpful. It was one of those um studies that showed that it was very helpful in preventing um COVID in infection from getting serious as well. And so um there's a tie-in there with rest uh and other advantages of rest. And then the final T is is trust uh trust in God. Dr. um um I'm blanking on his name. He's from Duke University. He's very famous that has written a lot of studies in regards to spirituality and health. Roger, you might know his name. He's even spoken at Lomolinda before.

[01:05:22]>> Um Harold Koig. Um Harold Koig um uh did a published a study in when COVID had come out and he mentioned that one of the most powerful things we can do to help our immunity is to have a spiritual life of trust and love. He particularly quoted Galatians love, joy, peace, longsuffering. Building up those uh those godly character, strengths in our life can actually help us uh greatly in regards to the next pandemic because it also helps us not to you know have that fear and the Bible tells us perfect love casts out fear and so uh that's uh that's an antidote that's very helpful to uh to really have our immune system innate immunity be at its top level.

[01:06:17]Yes, Dr. Schweld, any closing words here?

[01:06:22]>> Yeah. No, this is this is really important. Um, we know uh studies have been done looking at people who have anxieties. um people who specifically fear death in the intensive care unit.

[01:06:36]This is the the population that I treat that when they when they uh forgive, this is an interesting study that was done by Krauss uh at a University of Texas. He asked people whether or not they forgave conditionally or unconditionally. And uh the people that forgave conditionally were those that people that forgave only when something was done for them versus those that forgave unconditionally. Well, when he looked at those two populations, people who forgave unconditionally had better health outcomes, less anxiety and uh and and better wellness, less uh anxiety of death in the intensive care unit. Uh so then he dug even deeper. He wanted to ask this question. Well, what determines if somebody is going to forgive conditionally or unconditionally? And the and the simple answer that stuck out in the study was this. If they feel that they are forgiven by God, if they know that they are forgiven by God, they're much more likely to forgive others unconditionally. And so here we see this idea that trust in God, that trust in his forgiveness and his ability to to to whatever the circumstances that you're in to hold you through. Um that kind of trust comes with experience and it also comes by faith. So faith and experience in the in the trusting of God is key.

[01:08:03]And we're finding out that that has a very large effect. And to sum it up, I would say this that for you to have wellness, for you to flourish, in the term that we like to use, picture it as a three-legged stool. For you for you to be able to have a threelegged stool that stands, there is a a leg that must be physical. And we've been talking about the physicality of things. Uh, new start is great for that. There's also the mental leg as well. And believe it or not, and I actually did a study looking at this, that every new start principle not only affects you physically, it also improves you mentally.

[01:08:42]>> Um, every single one of those. And so those are the two legs I think that we can all agree on. But there is a third leg. And it's a third leg that we don't like to talk about too much because uh we see it differently. Each one of us see that spiritual aspect a little differently. But the fact of the matter is you can test it. It is scientific.

[01:09:01]And that third leg is spirituality. And that's an incredibly important leg that we need to strengthen. When we have all three of those there, uh we're going to have a very solid stool that we can set as a foundation for our life.

[01:09:16]>> Yes.

[01:09:17]Thank you so much, Dr. Schwelt, Dr. Nedley, taking time out of your busy schedule to be a blessing to those that are grappling with some of these issues.

[01:09:28]and we pray that uh the Lord would continue to use this podcast for his glory. Thank you so much for joining us.

[01:09:35]>> Thank you.