The Global View on Q - June 2nd 2026

追加: 2026-06-03

[00:00:00]It is Tuesday, 2nd June, 2026, the 21st Tuesday of 2026. And uh it is 8:00 p.m. In fact, it's just about 8:05 p.m. in the studios at Q95, the big station. We're live on our radio frequencies and on QTV. Please follow us on Facebook and on YouTube at Q95 FM radio. Share the live, like our pages, on your phone numbers or on the homepage of our website at ww.q95da.com.

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[00:00:30]Get the latest breaking news and reviews on Q95 because you know it's true if you hear it on Q. We continue to revive the spirit of graciousness, love, peace, prosperity, and unity among our Kalinago and AfroCaribbean brothers and sisters.

[00:00:46]This is our 15 global view on Q show for 2026 and we continue to engage with our local regional and global Q family listeners and friends of Dominica. I'm Sheridan Gregoire, Mr. G. With me is my co-host Justice Dr. Roing Andri Kalenago Chief Hopefully will be with us a little shortly. Let's see if she's with us. Uh not yet. uh Galenago chief and Sant Sanford is not yet with us but she should be with us shortly. Um then of course we have uh former Dominica UN Ambassador Christine Gregoire, Mr. Kimmani John is with us, attorney Joel Paris, Mr. Patrick Hill, also known as Nikki. Good evening to all you gentle people. This is part two in the series on how have the Kalinu people of Dominica fared since the event dubbed the last carib war in 1930 to date. So here are a few talking points or questions if you like for discussion tonight as the carib act of 1978 helped to institutionalize the kalinago chief and the kalinago council since Dominica retained political independence in 1978.

[00:01:59]Is it still relevant after 48 years?

[00:02:02]What provisions of this current act of 1978 need to be revised now in order to align with the UN declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples 20 years after this declaration particularly in view of the alleged mining and environmental degradation now affecting their communities. The Kalinago people of Dominica were not included, excuse me, in the negotiations for political independence. Was that an unforced error? Is there now a greater embrace of the Kalinago people and their and the cultural attributes by the wider Dominican population? Should the 2007 UN declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples have been more fully implemented by Dominica's government so as to deliver greater positive impacts on the lives of the Kalinago people of Dominica? The Kalinago Council is a tribal government. What should be the central government's approach to working with this local government authority which is different from a village council? What is the core legal principle that comes from the UN declaration of the rights of indigenous peoples and what does that core principle of free prior and informed consent mean for the Kalenago people post 2007 when the declaration was passed. So going forward, what should the Kalinago people do to advance their development aspirations after 48 years of the Kalinago Act of 1978?

[00:03:33]And what has been the impact, outcomes, and deliverables of the first female Kalinago chief and the new dynamic council for the Kalago community since taking office? I hope Chief Annet Sanford will tell us some of the good things that her council has already accomplished and contemplates doing in the future to enhance the quality of life and living standards of the Kalinago people. I have a I have put a quite a few quite a bit on the table and I and I and I also will ask panelists here tonight in this discussion to suggest what they envisage as important development aspirations for the Kalinago people from now through to 2030 when I imagine the Kalinago people will be commemorating 100 years since the presence of a British warship in Salivia in 1930. an event I believe to be known by the Kalinaga people as the last Carib war. And here's a a thought that I have.

[00:04:32]I just want to put this on the table.

[00:04:34]What about expanding the Kalinago territory by about 3,000 acres and creating a model traditional architectural design and build community integrated residences with agriculture manufacturing agra business technologydriven knowledge industries and tourism etc. all get to generate foreign earnings. Visitors could conceivably pay a fee to tour this traditional old world charm community which would be under the ownership, direction, control and management of the kalenago council and the kalenago chief.

[00:05:07]Just just a thought we can talk about it if you have some thoughts on that tonight. So we look forward to the contribution of justice Dr. Kalenago chief and Sanford former Doman ambassador Chrisin Gregoire Mr. Kimmani John attorney Joel Paris and Mr. Patrick Hill on how the Kalinago people of Dominica fared since the last Carib war in 1932 dates. So, as usual, we invite you, our Q family and friends of Dominica, to to help us give our usual shout out and big thank you to our farmers or healthcare providers, our frontline workers, police and fire officers, teachers, doctors, nurses, public and private sector, patriots, and friends of Dominica at home and abroad.

[00:05:55]We welcome each and every Dominican and every friend of Dominica to the global view on queue. We embrace you wherever you are in every nook and cranny in every village every community of go in Domiga in the region and globally. Thank you Shervin for keeping us on the air.

[00:06:11]Thank you Lamb on the console directing the traffic. We will take your calls as you know the people's voice is always a priority on the global view on queue. So each panelist of course will divide their presentations into you know in five minutes each you know uh as we go along they'll have more than one opportunity to make a fivem minute presentation. So I go now to justice Dr. Irving Andre for his first comments on how the kalinago people of Dominica have fared since the last car boy in 1930 to date. Dr. Andre.

[00:06:44]>> Yes. Let me say good evening and uh and I'm happy to be in the company of such an esteemed panel all very conversant and very versed on this troubling and sometimes ve vexing issue of the Kalinagago territory or the Kalinago people.

[00:07:00]How has the territory fared? It depends on for what perspective you bring to the table. It depends on what field of endeavor that you're making that assessment.

[00:07:12]um in terms of culture, in terms of association and affiliation with international organizations, in terms of a kind of consciousness particularly within the younger court of the territory. I think quite frankly great strides are being made.

[00:07:32]Um but in one central respect that is to say the Kalinado Act or the Kalinago Act 78 reincarnated as the Kalinago Act later.

[00:07:47]I think unfortunately the review or the assessment is mixed at best. In fact, I go so far as to say that the Kalinagago act has become a millstone around the neck of the Kalinago people. Why do I say that?

[00:08:06]First of all, you have to understand the genesis of the the original act in 78, the Karibact.

[00:08:12]The Karibact, it um institutionalized communal ownership.

[00:08:20]In principle, it's quite a loudable a laudable goal. Communal ownership. That is to say, the kalenago people have the right to perhaps take care of a certain portion of it without acquiring ownership.

[00:08:34]And the justification was that I think Edward Oliver breast expressed it in the late60s when there was a strive or drive to enable persons of the Kalaga territory to own land within the territory. And Edward Oliver said in a handset debate that if they do that such a measure would expose the Kalago people to greater exploitation.

[00:09:03]And he said, and it's not politically correct if you look at what he said in 2026 as opposed to 1967-68, that many persons, unscrupulous persons would take advantage of the Kalinago people, give them trinkets, as used to happen in colonial days, and end up with significant portions of the Kalinago territory, owned by persons who quite frankly had no right to own any part of that territory. So the legislation itself was very patternalistic. That is to say the belief that the colonial authorities knew what was best for the territory and had to protect the territory from unscrupulous persons. Now one can say that there was some justification for that attitude as manifested in the in the in Caribact.

[00:10:02]But we've reached a stage in 2026 where a new type of narrative has to take effect in the territory. Why is that?

[00:10:13]It is that because the central impediment or indictment of the CARB act is that it does not offer the persons in the territory any leverage to obtain loans to start businesses to provide for families, develop an export business.

[00:10:35]The inability to leverage those lands as collateral to expand to become innovative is conspicuous by its absence in the territory. And it's a critical advantage that Dominicans have over persons who reside in the territory.

[00:10:54]And in terms of the exploitation of the persons, now some of your panelists may disagree, but the exploitation of the Kaledago territory continues unabated.

[00:11:05]And we see it particularly in every electoral cycle. We see it in gifts of a $50 bill and a $100 bill in terms of tragedy.

[00:11:15]We see the callous destruction of the environment in terms of debour.

[00:11:21]If that had happened in Upper Goodwill, the whole goddamn city would be shut down.

[00:11:27]So there is still this callous disregard for the well-being and welfare of the Kalinago territory. And I hope with this new cadgery of leaders there's new thinking brought to that table.

[00:11:39]How to protect the Kalago people but giving them an avenue to take advantage of opportunities to create their own industries to empower themselves. I know the territory and I stand to be corrected is what 3,700 thanks to Edison James in the late 90s who added another $700 $800 acreage to the territory.

[00:12:01]But the point is where is the initiative from the authorities to designate a certain amount of acreage whether it's a th00and or 2,000 or whatever it is make available soft loans for persons in the territory to acquire title. Now I know that's a dirty word in development discourses these days. You can have a house but you own it because if you say anything bad against the directory they take the goddamn house but they have to reverse that thinking of keeping that the Kalago territory in a perpetual state of dependency where their economic well-being is emasculated by a piece of legislation which has no avenue for people from the territory to prosper to develop their own industry to develop work for their own people to develop generational wealth, generational wealth.

[00:13:02]So an enlightened leader or enlightened well government I would say would see that it has come a time to ensure that the Kalinago people is given a modiccom of independence not dependency independence and an an ability to own land an ability to access funding I stand to be corrected but there's been many initiatives in the past where Dominicans as a general rule has been given opportunities to purchase state lands at what a dollar a square foot or something along those lines.

[00:13:40]Where is the initiative directed and dedicated to the upliftment of the Kalago people?

[00:13:47]Where is that? I remember in the 1960s the exploitation of the Kalangago territory is monumental.

[00:13:55]Growing up in the south in not in the south, in the north, at one point there were hordes of French people coming to Dominica to do what?

[00:14:04]Well, some came to buy antique furniture. Nothing wrong with that. But some came to adopt kalinago children.

[00:14:12]Adopt them and raise them while erasing all their cultural heritage.

[00:14:20]In other words, they wanted to get the Indian out of these young persons they adopted and that has played to in a significant way at least in during that time to ensure that the Kal Naga culture does not persist but we've reached that time in our lives where we as a community we should cater to the welfare and well-being of the folks within that territory. They have brought borne the brunt of colonialism. They have paid the price. They've sacrificed. And today, quite frankly, although we like to talk about the lovely outfits and the especially when the tourists come across, but they should be more than mere curiosity in my respectful view. They should be accorded the respect, the dignity, the opportunity which every Dominican has.

[00:15:14]And we are not at that point quite frankly. and I hope we will be in my own lifetime. Thank you.

[00:15:21]>> Thank you, Dr. Andre, for this brief opening remarks on on this important topic here tonight. You know, as I um look around the um panel tonight, Dr. Andre, you know what I see? I I see um quite a number of young men who clearly have the potential to be parliamentary representatives for the Kalenago territory. and uh and I will go to one of them now to follow up on your remarks. Uh Joel, um your thoughts on on our topic here tonight and and certainly uh you you you heard my remark there about the fine young men around the table here tonight who all seem to have the potential to be parliamentary representatives. Are you one of those?

[00:16:08]>> All right. Thank you so much.

[00:16:11]Thank you so much.

[00:16:12]>> Yeah, go ahead.

[00:16:13]>> We've been listening air this evening.

[00:16:17]>> Okay, go ahead. You're on.

[00:16:18]>> Yeah. So, let me say good evening to the listening public. Um, let me say good evening to sorry, first of all, the panel, the panel, um, the other Kalago tribal members on the on the panel. um my my colleague Mark Douglas whom I especially invited here this evening um because I think uh the views of Afro Dominican people whether for or against um is necessary especially if it is for because it might be more digestible for the national public um to hear a a black man advocating for indigenous rights than it is for a kalagu man advocating for indigenous rights. Right.

[00:17:11]Um so I'm glad that you see me in in in in light of leadership. Um Mr. Gregora that is I I believe if if someone has interests in in politics, I do not necessarily believe that politics is purely electoral politics, but politics is exercising your right to be heard on the issues that affect you. And as a member, a tribal member of the Kalinagu nation, I accept that privilege fully and I and I and and I exercise it because I understand what it is to be deprived entirely of everything that belongs to your to your people, right? That belongs um and that is where I wanted to take the discussion, right?

[00:18:11]We as a kalinagago people everything that belonged to us right everything that belonged to our ancestors we have been deprived of it in within a modern independent society that is Dominica. So one of the material questions is how did Dominica come to assume the possession of all of it have today.

[00:18:42]Right? This is the fundamental question that has never been answered by independence Dominica on the premise that on the premise that the word indigenous the word preexistence the word priority in the order of creation of rights which is what the law is and I'll repeat that the words priority in the creation of rights are not identified anywhere in the Kalinago act. the Kalago people, the rights of the Kalago people, even if we were existing on the land and it was known to the colonizers, European colonizers and subsequently on the transfer of our lands fully to independent Dominica. Independent Dominica did not acknowledge within the constitution that they were building their new state on the wealth, the land, the resources, the water of the indigenous peoples of Dominica that was never acknowledged. Yet we have a section six to our constitution within our independence constitution which provides for compensation for everyone who has been arbitrarily deprived of their property but it doesn't extend to indigenous peoples.

[00:20:20]I will stop in my introduction here Mr. Gregor. Thank you.

[00:20:24]>> Yeah. Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot Joel for those opening remarks here. Um, I I want to go now to um to Ni because um you know you you you've been around Dominica for for quite a while.

[00:20:40]I've been around. We've never met but I've heard so much about you of all of your accomplishments. I know you are from Granby and so am I. And um so let let's hear your your take on this topic tonight in your introductory remarks.

[00:20:54]Niji.

[00:20:57]>> Um thank you Mr. and um a very pleasant evening to the panel and to all of the people who are listening to the program tonight. Uh thank you for inviting me to participate.

[00:21:14]Um it's not often that I get invited to participate in these types of discussions. So I'm grateful for that.

[00:21:24]Um, so I'm not from Grand Bay. I'm from the Kalago territory, but I did grow up in Grand and spent a significant part of my >> uh teenage years in the Grand Bay community.

[00:21:40]>> Okay.

[00:21:40]>> And I know the Grand Bay community very well and um and I love it um very much.

[00:21:47]It's it's a big part of my of my upbringing. Mhm.

[00:21:51]>> So I I have a very um a very practical and pragmatic view of what's going on in the territory.

[00:22:03]And for me, a lot of the of the history and the colonial process and all of those things that have affected us.

[00:22:18]Um I you know I don't think a whole lot about that tell you the truth I I am more concerned about how people live here today and and I live in the territory today. I when I retired I came back home and and I've been living here and working here and trying to play my part in the development of this place that I love very very much.

[00:22:49]So if I talk about anything tonight, it will be about things that are practical that I think we should advocate for uh for solutions to the economic problems that people face in this community.

[00:23:15]uh for a better system of education that is more um has to do more with with our life and life skills and the ability of people to succeed in the future and to deal with this new world that is that is upon us.

[00:23:35]Um so I I don't intend to take a long look at at the past.

[00:23:44]Thank Thank you.

[00:23:45]>> Thanks a lot. All right. So, Chrisin, you uh you actually worked in the Kalenago territory and you did quite a bit of work there for about 5 years. Uh give us your opening remarks on on the topic here tonight.

[00:24:02]>> Yes. Uh good evening, Mr. G. Um and u your co-host, Dr. Andre. And um I I I'm really honored to be on a panel with such distinguished Kalinago brethren and um who are also um accomplished professionals in their various fields.

[00:24:25]I've known um Patrick Hill um since he came to Grand Bay in in what 1974.

[00:24:33]Patrick.

[00:24:34]>> Yeah, but his correct name is Nichi.

[00:24:36]>> Yeah, I I I have his file so you don't have to He he's the only one on the panel that knows a place you know Sheridan called Savan.

[00:24:48]>> Oh sure >> he knows that place. So anyway um Joel and and Mark and uh Kimani it's uh it's really great to be on the panel with you all.

[00:25:02]I um I should say that the Kalinago territory um left an imprint on my my life journey cuz you know my my first serious job after graduate school was to go and work with Save the Children in the Kalago territory. And I'll tell you that that Mr. G has shaped my whole life to the extent that my career took a path that eventually put me on the world stage dealing with indigenous people's issues and it started in the Kalinago territory in in 1984 to 89.

[00:25:51]Well, you know, I I won't go into a lot of it, but just to say that it was a tr it has been a tremendous learning journey about the Kalinago people and the indigenous people of the Caribbean to the extent that by the time I finished that um time working with the Kalinagos, that five-year period, um I had learned so much I decided to start writing. So I've actually written two things on the kalinagos.

[00:26:25]Not many people know about it but one of the the major work is for the University of the West Indies.

[00:26:32]Um I wrote with two co-authors um Patrick Henderson who used to be the director of peace corpore and um and he worked with me he was my my program manager when I managed the program for save the children and um also Dr. Natalia Kanim who um I should be I should be honest and say that she was my first wife my expouse and she and both both things that I wrote she was a co-author so she himself is an expert um on indigenous people and she comes from Panama and she introduced me to the indigenous people of Panama in the years for many years I I was going to Panama Now when I came to the Kalinago territory I learned some things. One is that the the the there was a little crisis there in the sense that save the children came in after the the the the hurricane um hurricane David and um and set out to work and I became the first Dominican to to to lead the program.

[00:27:48]There were only two directors, myself and my predecessor before we were shot down by the government. Um the a few things I learned in the in the process, Mr. G. Um one of them is that as Joel mentioned, there's no there's no mention in the one of the most unsettling things for me is no mention in the in the constitution in the preamble in particular of the constitution about the indigenous people of Dominica.

[00:28:22]And it's because they were not represented in the negotiations. So they they they were an afterthought.

[00:28:28]And it was in in the UK that the the the parliamentarians raised it in the British Parliament asking the foreign office, you know, what about these indigenous people? What are we going to do with them? What's going to be their role?

[00:28:43]And it's only after those discussions in the UK that the the the delegation came back and the then Labor Party um under Patrick John they decided to do the act.

[00:28:55]And I I um Joel might be more clear on when exactly the act was done whether it was in March of 78 or was it after independence in November after independence. So I I I I don't know those those dates. I'm not too clear. But so, okay. But one of the things that struck me while I worked there was the the the the issue of race in Dominica and how the Kalinago feared as far as how the larger Dominican black population viewed them.

[00:29:31]And during the time I was working there, there was an incident that brought that to the four. So that so the issue of race is an issue. Um and then the second thing that is an ongoing issue is the issue of the communal land tenure.

[00:29:48]You know um Dominica is one of two places that I know in the Caribbean that has communal land.

[00:29:55]One is Dominica, the Kalinago territory.

[00:29:58]The other one is the island of Barbuda in in Antigga Barbuda. They have communal land too and they have some their own issues but they don't have indigenous people. I suppose at one time Babuda was owned by the by the Kalinago people of of Antigga, but they were wiped out. And and and and the third thing I want to say about the Kalinago people is that they they have a what I call an indomitable spirit about them. They don't first of all they they have never surrendered to anybody not any other race and to this day they have a certain value system about them of survival and they have survived over centuries on Dominica and they have made their imprint like the the stamp of the kalinago pervades our country Dominica but we are in denial about that. So these are some of the things I would like us to raise and and Mr. G last thing is that having been on involved in the with organizing the the world conference on indigenous peoples in 2014 I'd like to give some insights at some point tonight about what are the the macro issues related to indigenous people and how they relate to governments around the world. There are 93 countries with indigenous people and we are one of them. So yes, Mr. G. Thank you.

[00:31:29]>> Excellent. Excellent. Um President, thanks a lot for that for the brief opening remarks here. Um I want to go to um to Kimani to um to give us his opening remarks on on the topic here tonight.

[00:31:43]>> Thank you very much, Mr. Grego. Well, the first thing I want to say is that is how honored I am. First of all, um I'm seeing my my friend here Nichi who I haven't seen in a bit and that makes me very happy to you know we don't video a text every now and again.

[00:31:56]>> I I know I know we should we should do more of that.

[00:32:01]>> It's very much true and you know it's it is a pleasure and an honor to be among very estimate gentlemen like this. I will say for example, Nichi is not only a a a kagago man. He's he's a former USVI senator. Right. Right. Nichi. So Nishi is a very important man among us Kagos and we respect him very much.

[00:32:20]>> Well, yes, we we we will we will acknowledge that for him even if he's humble and he would not acknowledge that himself.

[00:32:27]>> Well, you know, as an as as an elder, I I kind of took it him being my elder, I took it on me to kind of say something about it because I couldn't let her pass.

[00:32:36]I I also like to say that um I'm really I never expected I would ever be on a panel with Mr. Andre, Dr. Andre. Like all I know about Dr. Andre is he writes really great books. He's one of the most esteemed Dominicans. And >> don't say that. Don't say that too loud.

[00:32:52]Look you up, you know.

[00:32:55]>> And it's the same with Mr. Mr. Gregoire, Miss both Mr. Gian Crispen and also Joel my my brother a very passionate Kagago a very intell a very intelligent Kagago who has been very dedicated to the cause of our people and and pushing moving our people forward so I'm very happy to be to be here with him um the first thing I want to say is uh I want I want to give credit to our our our KGO leaders the folks who are on the ground right now our chief or pal rep our um our various community leaders or or counselors, they they are doing the hard work every single day. And you know when very very often when when you're when you're deep in the work sometimes you can you cannot really you don't have the bandwidth to deal with all the things that are coming at you. So I really respect the hard work that they're doing and um I would really I I I would really love to support them in any way I can. My thinking here on on on these issues, I mean the first the answer to the question of how have we gone far enough after independence?

[00:33:57]Obviously the answer to that is no. We have not gone far enough. But my my my take on that is is maybe a little bit different than some folks. So my thing my thing here is that um I think that yes it's true the colonization stuff.

[00:34:12]Yes, it's true. all the all this we happening now in Dominica with with the government whatever lack of respect whatever that stuff all that is true but I think the greatest weakness our people face is our own division and that division has not really allowed us to really come together and figure our way out the the the truth is that it's not that we cannot figure our way out of this we can we have we have we have the intelligent people we have the resources but we have not been able to organize ourselves and what what we need to emerge right now is a consensus builder, that person that's going to bring the various kagago factions together, whether it's the the partisans or the religious folks or whether it's the clans, you know, the Sanfords and the Fedrics and everybody, we need a consensus builder that can help everybody to focus on on a national goal. And I think that if we can get folks to focus on national goal, we can we can really release the energy or that indominative indominatable spirit that um Chris spoke about. I don't know if it's okay for me to call you Christian.

[00:35:11]I should say Mr. Grego, I'm sorry. Um, but I would just say when when when Mr. Gregoire Chrisin spoke about the indominatable spirit. One of the one of the first thing I thought about was one of his one of his own writings when he spoke about carism and and and he looked at what what folks like Irvings and and um Irvings Garnet and those guys what they were doing how they were organizing and and he's looked at that and he said well you know that that's carrorism that that is that that that move towards self-governance that energy for for for us to have some self-determination that's carism. I hope I'm making a right characterization here. And I'm I'm looking when when I looked I looked at that because I was trying to explain what that indomitable spirit that Mr. spoke about was and um I looked at the word carbism. I played with I played with it for a little while but then I decided you know what we need to go a little bit bigger because what what he was describing was a snapshot of something that I felt my entire life everybody I spoke to whether whether it's at a rum shop at a party family parties whatever it is that thing was always there that the people believe we are our own people we want we want independence you want self-determination that thing is there so my my I think my my role that I've taken on myself is to kind of put a framework to that. So I I I look at that like I have expanded the term carism to be kinago nationalism and I look at kago nationalism and I know I know the word nationalism carries some some bad um uh implications but in in this case what what what what we see it as is that that that idea or that framework that can contain the whole body of whe our connection to our heritage and our governance, our institutions. And I think that Kalago nationalism can really give our community and our leadership that kind of focus for us to be able to take ourselves from where understand first of all where we are and where it is we are going for us to be able to envision where it is we want to go and for us to really put all the resources of our little nation towards achieving that goal. So that so that is that is the kind of that is the kind of thinking I've been working on for maybe the last 10 years. Um I have I I I have I I have looked at various governments how they do stuff and I'm I'm trying to figure out okay what what is the pecular what what is the things I can borrow from them to fit the particularities of our community and so for example and when I when I look at governance and the where we want to go I find that we need to be very specific about what we focus on. So, for example, when when a when a when a government runs programs in the Calon territory, very often they take a very broad approach, you know, like they put what what $100,000 and they want they wanted to spread over 10 over a thousand things where and we don't really really get that impact. And um as as as a as a small nation with the resources we have, if we can if we can come together and change the way we look at things, for example, we go from being that first of all, we're not just a tribe. We we are a nation. We are a nation that is growing. We are a nation that was interrupted and we're now completing the process. Me as the chief or me as the pal, me as Nichi, me as Joel. What we are doing is there is this mission that our leaders handed down to us. That is to establish a nation for indigenous people, a safe haven for indigenous people here in Dominica and that is our mission that we have to carry on and we have to adopt the necessary discipline financial and otherwise for us to be able to deliver on that because when we don't do that properly, when we make mistakes about governance, it is generations of people that suffer. It is generations of generations of young men standing by the roadside not really contributing to the community. If we if we were able to get all those young men and young women or whoever it is that we see on the roadside so often as well as those who were forced to leave those basically basically refugees.

[00:39:14]If all those folks had been committed and and working towards the goal of of of realizing our our our nation that that is thousands of people more that would have been contributing that we have lost. So I really think that um it's extremely important that we focus on the past but we have to kind of like find that thread from the past that allows us to move on that we don't just keep going back to hey no this guys did this to us this guy did that to us but taking the responsibility to ourselves to say that hey we understand that we have very little resources we have very limited capacity but because of that we need that necessary discipline and I think kalago nationalism will give us that necessary discipline to also understand where it is that we need to So I think I will start here. I will I will stop here and we can we can kind of interrupt throughout the night.

[00:40:04]>> Yeah. Thanks a lot Kimmani. Um you know I save the best for last. So I have now to call on Mac to give me your opening comments on the topic here tonight and then I'll go back to Dr. Andre for us to go back on on a couple of things that were mentioned by some of the persons around the table here tonight. Mark, your opening thoughts.

[00:40:27]>> Uh good evening Mr. G. Um, I'm not sure you saved the best for last, but you did save me for last. So, >> that that is accurate.

[00:40:35]>> All right. All right. Take it as you wish.

[00:40:38]>> It it it is a pleasure being amongst you. I must say that uh uh Joel and I may have um to to discuss later on because when he invited me here this evening, he never mentioned that I would be among such a distinguished panel. Uh individuals that I have admired and um read about from a distance. Um so I I don't have the pleasure of knowing um I think any of you except Joel uh personally but I I am familiar uh with you all. Uh so it is a pleasure and an honor to be uh amongst you. Um also want to wish uh a good evening to uh the uh public at large uh specifically the Dominican public. Um you know this uh topic is quite interesting. Uh Joelle introduced me as a black man that advocates for indigenous rights. Uh so my background is as an attorney. Um I was born in Kalibishi. Um but I left Kalibishi when I was seven and I was raised in the United States. I became an attorney in the United States.

[00:41:49]Uh and then in about 2014, I decided to uh get called to the bar in Dominica.

[00:41:56]And that's when I met Joel for the first time. And uh since that time we've engaged in many discussions about indigenous rights and he's uh frankly uh educated me about many of the issues. Um and there's still many that I have to uh to learn more about. uh I form certain opinions in our discussions and I am open and receptive to those opinions changing as I learn more and more. Um my comments will be brief because I I tend to listen uh when I'm amongst people that know more than me uh about a topic.

[00:42:35]I I think that's a wise thing to do. But I will make a couple of points. Um, it's interesting for me this topic because I grew up for most of my life in the United States as a black man and I remember going to to to law school and reading the US Constitution as a black man.

[00:42:59]And when I read the Constitution, there there are three provisions in the Constitution that every black man should be familiar with. Uh, article one talks about the three-fifths clause. Uh, that three-fifths of the enslaved population um or the enslaved population were counted as three-fifths for purposes of taxation and uh representation.

[00:43:24]Uh there's also a provision uh that prohibits uh the abolition of the international slave trade. there's a provision that requires any escaped slave uh that escapes to a free state uh to uh be returned. And so when I read those provisions, I thought, "Oh, this not only were black people thought of when this was this constitution was adopted, but they were thought of in a negative light."

[00:43:58]I immediately thought about that when I saw the topics that were um before us for discussion uh this evening because inherent in the discussion is a consideration of whether the Kalenago people were thought of uh at the time of adopting the constitution and drafting it and in what light were they uh thought of.

[00:44:31]One can say that they did not have a seat at the table uh to make meaningful contributions uh towards the laws that would be governing them. And so as as as someone that that advocates for fairness and justice, I think that's something that we should uh have an open mind about. You know there were there were inherent injustices in the US constitution and some of those injustices had to be corrected such that there were 27 amendments uh to date of that constitution.

[00:45:07]Uh Dominica should be open to amending uh to the extent that you didn't get it right the first time. uh you have opportunities to uh get it right and we're not bound uh to to stay with the uh document that all of our people did not have a meaningful say in I I also you know in listening to Dr. Andre when he talked about the uh paternalism of uh the uh kalago act you know I I I think of things in a very u pragmatic way and it I there's no doubt that it was uh paternalistic at the same time uh I tend to focus in my practice as an attorney representing borrowers uh against lenders ers and and lenders tend to have uh tremendous resources.

[00:46:11]And so in in in representing borrowers, I'm often in a position of representing the underdog that's trying to maintain ownership of their properties.

[00:46:22]And when you look at my my experience in practicing in Dominica is that uh there's a long history of uh property owners being taken advantage of. Now I I I think one of the um undeniable facts is that the act was paternalistic but it may have had an effect of uh preserving ownership or preserving or preventing the exploitation um of the Kanago people. Now it's not perfect and we have an opportunity to change it. Um but I I think we should do so in a very pragmatic way. Uh because uh I I can tell you where I practice in New York, there are people that are predators that seek to prey upon people who do not understand the laws, do not understand uh the mechanisms by which they can lose their properties. Uh and so we have to be very pragmatic in in in the way we uh craft changes. Uh so with that I I will um you know leave you Dr. um Andre to speak more upon the top the topic and and Mr. G.

[00:47:37]>> Thanks a lot Mark. Yeah so Dr. Andre I mean this um well Mark has really segueed into this I mean son you you can maybe speak on this. I mean uh the Kalanago people were not included in negotiations for political independence.

[00:47:52]So probably you can say well was there an afterthought about the people at the time of attaining independence and then of course I mean in today's in today's world in Dominica the um Kalinago council it is a tribal government and and what should the central government's approach be to working with this local government authority that is totally different from a village council.

[00:48:17]Well, in my in my view, the operative word is empowerment.

[00:48:22]The Kalanago council is meant to govern the affairs of the territory.

[00:48:29]They play in my view a greater role than the typical or archetypical village council.

[00:48:36]So you you at least you have to accord them a basic amount of difference, a basic amount of trust, a basic amount of respect irrespective of the perceived political affiliations of members of the council.

[00:48:55]You can't treat treat them as if they are yesterday's newspaper just because they may have different political views or some members anyway than you.

[00:49:05]The essence of democracy is toleration of divergent views.

[00:49:12]Everyone, no one will agree with everything you say or do. But there should be commonalities. There should be a joint enterprise. There should be a joint realization or ambition to empower whether it's people in the Kyle Nago territory any other persons or groups of persons or communities in Dominica and you have to ask yourself how can I best serve that function.

[00:49:39]They may dis be disperate views among the your panelists tonight. Some may talk about the fishing industry. Some may talk about the craft industry. Some may talk about developing the traditional skills of the Kalago people.

[00:49:54]Whatever it is, but there has to be a commitment to empower the folk to give them a sense of independence. Not dependence independence because no people can develop being dependent on some other political entity.

[00:50:14]That's the bottom line. Independence brings out all the creative energies and juices in the people. They give them incentives to go beyond to strive for success to give their children a fighting chance to set an example for members of the community. So that's what we're talking about. And it seems to me although I might have different views, some different from some of your panelists and so on, but it seems to me there has to be a universal commitment that whatever programs are devised or developed in so far as the territory is concerned, the ultimate goal is to empower the community to break the bonds of dependency.

[00:50:59]This is not rocket science.

[00:51:02]All it requires is the commitment to do precisely that.

[00:51:06]And there in my my respectful view lies a problem. Thank you.

[00:51:12]>> Thanks a lot Dr. Andre Ni. you you know let's let's build on that thought you are you were more concerned about present operation and moving forward than dwelling on the the history so your your thoughts on on this in terms of the the governance of the kalago territory by the kalinago council which is different from a typical village council and how should the the national government deal with that particular kalinago council which is governing certain amount of lands and in certain conditions and looking after the interests of the of the indigenous the first peoples of Dominica.

[00:51:49]>> Okay. So the the first thing I will say is that every single government that has been in place starting with the government of Patrick John at the time of independence has treated the Kalinago with a sense of um disrespect.

[00:52:06]Um they have discriminated against them.

[00:52:10]um they have treated them as secondass citizens. So that has happened with every government um and this current government really is not much different. you know, it continues. I I I think it it it uh the current government has done certain things to make people's lives a little better, but the way that they have um that governments have related to the Kanago Council has been consistent over all the governments. As a matter of fact, Eugenia Charles was essentially a racist in the way that she dealt with the Kalanago people.

[00:52:50]Eugenia Charles tried um essentially stop Hillary Frederick from running for for election again. She almost put him in jail because he took a thousand and something a thousand and something dollars to go to a conference in Switzerland to represent the Kalago territory. and she essentially accused him of stealing the money and and banned him from running for office. So the discrimination on the part of of governments has been consistent. Um here is something that I I want to bring to your attention that is that is that is sort of just it's amazing to me.

[00:53:38]uh one of the speakers I think it was uh maybe Andrea or or Chrisian talked about um finance and getting access to credit because of the land tenure issue. So that is a critical problem and every government has failed to do anything about it until this current government at the urging and pushing of people like myself and some other leaders in the community set up this fund at the at the at the aid bank, the Kalago um fund which Kalenago people now have access to um in terms of getting some credit.

[00:54:20]But here is the most critical problem I think in terms of funding. Let's just look at this one segment of the population and those are civil servants.

[00:54:32]The people who are police officers, firemen, nurses, teachers, all of these people who work for the government, like every other Dominican who works for the government, they are paid the same amount monthly. They have the same salaries. They have the same benefits like every other government employee in this country.

[00:54:55]Dominica's middle class is essentially the civil service class.

[00:55:01]If you go in any village around this country, the people with the concrete house and the, you know, a decent standard of living are civil servants.

[00:55:12]They they're really the middle upper class of of this country.

[00:55:17]You come to the Kawagawa territory and look at the civil servants who live here and who work in the same jobs with the same salary, same benefits. They all live in the substandard and in poverty. And why is that?

[00:55:32]Those are the kinds of things that I think governments need to address.

[00:55:37]The government of Dominica and I I don't know which administration set it up.

[00:55:41]Probably it was Patrick John himself or maybe Andre can tell us. They set up this fund, this very specific fund, the government loans board to issue loans to civil servants at at at below the market interest rates.

[00:56:00]So every civil servant in this country can go to the government loans board to get a loan to build a home to do to to get a mortgage at an interest rate that is below what you can get in the banks today because the government takes public money and puts into this fund just for civil servants. You know who cannot access that fund? Kalinago civil servants. They have never been able to access that fund to and as we speak tonight, they still cannot access that fund. As a matter of fact, this government recently I heard in parliament put an additional amount of money. Maybe they put money every budget cycle they put money into the fund. I didn't hear one single parliamentary representative stand up in parliament and say, "Well, what happened? Why aren't the Kalago people allowed to access this fund? what can we do to allow them to access this fund because they're civil servants just like everybody else.

[00:56:58]So this is the kind of blatant racist practices that every single government has practiced has has has done and not a single one person in par I don't even think the parliamentary representative from the ter from the territory stood up and made that point. Why don't kalago people have access to this fund? So all of the the governance issues to me have to do with the sensitivity of the government of the people in the government, the prime minister, the ministers and all of those permanent secretaries who have the responsibility of running this country have to have some sense of understanding and a sensit ity to the needs and to and and to the injustices that the Kalanago people have suffered over decades of every government that has been in place.

[00:58:02]>> Now, now ni um just to follow up on that comment about the the the access the difficulty in accessing this this government loans board or house housing loans fund by the Kalago people. In fact, even the Kiago public servants is it because um they do not have access to the collateral because they don't own the land in the they don't have title the land and they can't use it as collateral. What what is really the the hold up there?

[00:58:31]>> That that that is the stated reason, right? So that is the reason that the loans board will give to a civil to a civil servant from the Kalanagago territory who goes to the boards and try to access the loan, right? So they will say well we cannot give you a loan because you don't have title to your land.

[00:58:50]That's the excuse. So tell me why a government who has been in place since 1978 cannot figure out how to address this one particular issue.

[00:59:07]There must be a solution to it. I mean we cannot be that unimaginative, right?

[00:59:14]>> True.

[00:59:15]>> If we want to do it, we could do it.

[00:59:17]>> True.

[00:59:18]>> So, so, so let me let me ask Joel then.

[00:59:20]And Joel, I mean, do you believe that um setting up an indigenous financial institution, a bank or whatever you want to call it, an investment corporation or whatever in the Kalago territory for the Kalago people? Do you think that is possibly a solution that could take into account the fact that it is communal lands and no individual has an individual title? Do you do you think that may be a solution?

[00:59:49]>> Uh you need to turn on your mic.

[00:59:53]>> Here is an interesting contradiction to you before I answer this question Mr. G.

[00:59:57]Right. I have often laughed at that contradiction and I've said to my my my my my friends and people I have discussed these issues of native rights in the Caribbean. We've and I've said in all of the Caribbean every everybody has all non-indigenous people has titles to land approaching financial institutions um with the ability to borrow using this titles to lends tit land that inherently belong to indigenous people.

[01:00:36]Everybody else has the power to use it to get resources from banks except the indigenous peoples.

[01:00:44]It's one of the greatest contradictions of of of modern society and a a dilemma that as a a a primitive people because I feel I think I am a primitive man. You understand? and and and and and I am I am I am univilized as I as as I have been defined to be by the narrative within academic society.

[01:01:13]But what is what is important what is the point that I'm what we are getting to and my my native brother Mr. He'll mention it quite correctly when he says we have the ability to be creative.

[01:01:34]We have the ability to One of the things that that baffles me is why hasn't a trust been established? Dominica has everything that belongs to the Kalago people. 98% of the land of of that that Dominica has built its nation on belongs to the Kalago people.

[01:01:57]Yet there we there has not we the state has never been creative in remedying the problem of access to resources for indigenous peoples which so we have therefore experienced lives as unequals in Dominica.

[01:02:16]Establish a trust. That is my recommendation to the government.

[01:02:19]Establish a trust. The the interest from that trust fund will go towards the development of the community without compromising the communal nature of the land.

[01:02:31]All of the land transfers all of the land transfers. The state gets a percentage of the land transfers.

[01:02:38]But the land doesn't belong to the government of the Commonwealth of Dominica inherently. It belongs to the Kalago people. Where is our percentage on land transfers?

[01:02:52]>> Right. One more point about I think everything I think a united Kalago territory, a united Kalaku people, there is nothing that we cannot achieve.

[01:03:04]As Kimmani hinted to earlier, there are deep divisions in the Kalago territory caused by politics, caused by religions, but these are not unresolvable issues if if we decide to deal with them structurally, right? And so so so one of the other recommendations and I'm putting out that recommendations, they can they can choose to take it. I'll be happy if they take it on. dissolve the Department of Kalinagago affairs and all of the resources that are paid to the staff, all of the resources that are paid to vehicles for for for the for for the running of vehicles and office in Roso and all of these things dissolve it and the monies used utilized for in the department of Kalago affairs or the ministry of Kalago affairs demarcate these resources to the Kalinago chief and council.

[01:04:01]The Kalago chief and council needs to establish needs to have a staff to run the operations of the Kalago territory. The kind of chief and council doesn't have a staff right an executive body with necessary the international legislations the UN drip the United Nations declarations on the rights of indigenous people says that because of all of the benefits that states has received from indigenous peoples that these resources needs to be demarcated to indigenous people's governance structure.

[01:04:40]So go ahead, dissolve the Department of Kagago affairs. I do not see why it's needed because it's only needed to perpetuate the interest of national government to divide the Kagago people.

[01:04:57]Dissolve it. The resources used in that in that entity should be provided to the Kalago chicken council. And that is my recommendation tonight to the government of Dominica. Thank you.

[01:05:11]Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot, Joel. Ni, your your mic. Turn off your mic a minute. I hear a little feedback coming through the system. I'm not sure if it's because your mic is is is is open. So, uh but yeah, so we'll see. We'll see how it goes. But you know, Christian, I I want to come back to you because you see the discussion is really taking shape here tonight in terms of the rights of the indigenous people of Dominica. And let us go back to this um this call legal principle that comes from the UN declaration on the rights of indigenous people. Right? What does that core principle of free prior and informed consent mean for the Kalinago people post 2007? You see Joel was just talking about this now. He's saying dissolve the Department of Kalinago affairs and place this funds into the coffers of the Kalago chief and the Kalinago Council for the governance of the Kalinago territory. What What are your thoughts?

[01:06:13]>> Well, uh let me say that um I I think that's that's quite a visionary um um outlook.

[01:06:21]Um I I I agree. I I agree, Joel. There's no there's no reason to add bureaucracy on the Kalinago people and um not give them the resources, not give the council the resources because frankly the council would like to do many things, but it doesn't have the the staff capacity to implement and that's a huge that's a huge problem. Now you see um you can't expect the the the counselors of the council as as enshrined in the act the the the counselors are the are the governing body they're not implementers but but by didn't because they don't have the staff you find that the counselors have to give extra effort beyond their governing role and and what Joel is proposing is exactly what's needed to transfer from Roso this um uh uh management authority or man management capacity of the council to be able to govern the territory because here's what makes the the Kalinago um council different from the other village councils or the the other local government authorities including town councils.

[01:07:50]So you have town councils and you have village councils, right? These are the the the local authorities.

[01:07:56]Now the the none of the village councils have land to manage or resources to manage. They they do things for villages, but they're not nothing in law that enshrines them with the authority to manage a territory like the council does. So that's what makes it a tribal government. And the other thing that makes it a tribal government, it is a government that has been in existence before the notion of states, before states came into existence in the 1600s.

[01:08:35]The Kalago people and the indigenous people of the world already had their systems of governance, right? And it's just been transplanted.

[01:08:44]When the when the when the white people came, the colonials came, what they did was to wipe out wipe out the indigenous people wherever they are in the world.

[01:08:56]And and then the specific reality of the Dominica Kalinagos is this. And that's why I had to talk about it. I mentioned before the indomitable spirit. They they warriors. They have a warrior. the Dominican Kalinagos.

[01:09:12]When we begin to teach the Dominican people and the youth about what is the history of the Kalinagos, they will be surprised to learn what the Dominica Kalinagos did in history. From the beginning of the colonization when Columbus and them came through the Kalenagos were there before they had their system of governance before. Now states want to tell them how to govern and that's they're not going to go for that and that was why Sheridan in starting you know back in the 1980s the global movement for indigenous rights and and self-determination just started growing and it culminated with the UN declaration on the rights of indigenous people in 2007. seven.

[01:10:08]One of my lucky one of my lucky um parts of my life was I happened to be the Dominican ambassador at the UN when that declaration was tabled before the general assembly and I'll tell you in the final negotiations I happened to be the ambassador that was most friendly to the Kalago to to the indigenous people of the world while this thing was coming to the general assembly. In fact, I wanted more radical language in that in that declaration.

[01:10:44]Little did I know that later on the the indigenous people of the world had recognized me as somebody that could represent them and be fair to them in what would eventually be a difficult negotiation between states and the indigenous people of the world.

[01:11:06]And Mr. G what what was really striking to me and I'm saying this in this in international aspect of the issues and then to distill it into local into the Dominican context. How does it fit?

[01:11:25]Uh so the I end up being picked to just by sheer luck um to be picked to organize this conference.

[01:11:39]Most difficult task ever in my whole career.

[01:11:44]I now have to negotiate with the powers that be the most powerful countries in the world. And so I'm in the middle. the indigenous people on one side of the table, that's the indigenous people of the world, and the the states that oppressed them for centuries on the other side of the table along with countries that just got their independence after 1945 who some of them have indigenous people, some don't have at all.

[01:12:17]and and I I just want to give a little reference to what the Russian delegation um said in that negotiation. And I I'm saying that for the first time in public. I you know I took the while didn't discuss some of these things and um the Russians uh took the they have indigenous people like us um who are called the the the the Sammy indigenous people and you find the same people in in in in Finland and in in Denmark and in Sweden and in Norway they they didn't see the indigenous people to be on the same level as states. So the Russians felt that they said to me, "Look, Ambassador Gregoire, th this is an intergovernmental process, meaning that it's a pre it's the preserve of states, meaning that the indigenous people don't have the same rights like states." And I'm saying to them, "No, wait a minute, Ambassador."

[01:13:28]um Zaganov, that was his name. I said, "Look, I don't agree with this. They the indigenous people of the world existed before states and they they want to negotiate with you now. I'm just a referee in this game here."

[01:13:43]What was most interesting to me is that the indigenous people didn't just come to negotiate with the states.

[01:13:53]They came with their document. They came with their plan of how they want countries to relate to them.

[01:14:02]And what I simply did in the time pressure that I had of six months to organize a world conference, I simply took the indigenous people's paper, read it from cover to cover a few times, and then I figured out what could sell at the UN.

[01:14:27]And what could sell would be things that would be non-negotiable with big powers like United States or or um Australia um uh Europe.

[01:14:41]All of these European countries have indigenous, some of them have indigenous peoples.

[01:14:46]And one of the no-go areas was military, the presence of the military in countries and how they deal with indigenous peoples. I know no go area there. Um, and then I I took a particular interest in violence against women, indigenous women. And we see that even in our own country, we our our our men outside the territory, they they they they pray on Kalinago women and and and they they also leave a problem with Kalinago women in that a lot of I I noticed there are number of Kalinago children who whose fathers are outside the territory.

[01:15:37]So that's that that's an issue a social issue and I don't know how grave it is but so that that that's one concern. So out in that conference we had a big focus on indigenous women because all over the world they exploited.

[01:15:54]Um the Russians actually came around later on and they told me they support the conference and as long as we don't we follow UN procedures and UN procedures is just to make sure that states get their their way.

[01:16:13]Um but the indigenous people of the world came out of the of that world conference um with a document that forced the UN now to figure out a way to assist the indigenous people's development across the world and and there are a number of mechanisms one of them like the permanent forum on indigenous issues every year they meet and and and I'm glad to say that the kalenago peoples have been represented in these international meetings um over the years. Um I believe that the first in um permanent forum was probably around 2012 and and it has gone on you know um even before 2012 I think 20 2009 after the the the the Andre.

[01:17:05]>> Yeah. Yeah. Christian um could you sort of wind down that portion a little bit because I want some calls. Yes. Yes.

[01:17:13]>> I'd just like to say something quickly.

[01:17:15]>> Yes. And and Mitchi, I wanted to come to you as well to to say something on this.

[01:17:20]>> Yeah. So, the last thing I want to say on this on this the international side of it is that the indigenous people now have a place I think at the UN, they're still trying to figure out how they can participate in the UN meetings under the under indigenous people. But what they have been able to achieve in the last since the conference in 2012 in 2014 is now that they have inserted themselves in the UN in a way that I didn't think could happen and it has happened quick and one of the areas that they're very very active is in climate change climate change adaptation and and and preservation of traditional knowledge and I think those are great developments. Mr. Yeah. Excellent. Kristen, um, NI, you only part.

[01:18:12]>> I just I just wanted to make a quick um comment on on the um point that was raised about the dissolving of the Kalanago um ministry and >> department of >> giving the funds to to the council. So there's also a practical side to that, right? I mean, so, so that in itself when you listen to it sounds like a really good thing. And I I suppose if it was done and it was managed and you had the right human resource to do it and the right legal framework and all of those things in place, it's very possible that that would be a a significant benefit to the territory.

[01:18:57]But but here is the practical side of it that that exists as we speak. The last council which was in place uh prior to to to Chief Sanford taking over was elected to office in in November. I think the election was in November. They elected a council elected a chief and in December the counselors all gave themselves bonuses and the chief gave himself a loan of $30,000.

[01:19:29]So just imagine the the possibility and the opportunity for all sorts of nonsense to happen if you just give resources to entities that are not prepared to really manage the resources that they have right now. That is why I think a lot of these things need really thorough thought processes. They need legal um frameworks to be set up and it requires as as you were mentioning in in the earlier segment, it requires significant amendments to the Kalago Act. So for instance, here's another thing the government just does if they want, right?

[01:20:24]The last chief, the prime minister thought he was a brilliant young man and he was going to be a great leader and at his inauguration, he just gave him a brand new vehicle. So here's a brand new ride for your for your for your term.

[01:20:40]Right.

[01:20:42]When Chief Sanford is elected to office, they just take away the vehicle.

[01:20:48]So she doesn't have access to it because somehow maybe she was part of a different political establishment. So they just take away the people.

[01:20:58]My understanding also was the the chief is is usually entitled to a um to a passport to a what do you call it the diplomatic passport right? So former chiefs have just been given diplomatic passports and they can use it as as they see fit. My understanding is is when um Chief Sanford was elected to office, I don't know if she's received it yet, but it took a very long time for a diplomatic passport to be issued to her.

[01:21:28]Right. So, so the this ability of the government to just do whatever they wish whenever they wish is is is an issue that needs to be addressed and it needs to be addressed through amendments to the Kalago Act.

[01:21:46]Some of these things need to be stipulated in the law so that prime ministers and governments and cabinets cannot just come into office and just do whatever they wish really need.

[01:21:59]Yeah. Thanks. Thanks a lot for that. Um yeah, and I'm pretty sure that this will we'll have some follow-up comments on this. I'm sure Joel is standing by to make some comments, but I want to go to Lambi. Joel, I'll talk to you on the other side of the break. I want to ask Lambi to give the telephone numbers out to the audience because a lot of people are following us on Facebook and on YouTube and on the radio. Many people would like maybe to make a contribution.

[01:22:20]Lambby given give the numbers out.

[01:22:24]>> The global view and Q taking your calls at this time. The numbers are as follow.

[01:22:30]4493095 4493096 4493097 6164257 those are local numbers. The overseas number 3054329624 and uh we already have a call on the line. So let's take this call. Caller please go ahead.

[01:22:56]>> Yes. Uh gentlemen, I I'm listening to the people on the panel, but the only thing that confuses me is that some of of the folks on the panel uses the term democracy when they're referring to Dominica. And that uh it puzzles me because Dominica might be a democratic country on paper when they get their independence from Britain, but in practice Dominica is a fullblown socialist communist country. A man goes to China, he comes back to Dominica, and when he's been questioned as to what he's find with the Chinese, you are told it's not your damn business.

[01:23:37]The man tells you no law, no constitution can tell him what to do. Is that democracy, gentlemen? Is that what they call democracy? When the president of the United States goes out, when he hunts back, he tells you what he signed or what he didn't sign with any country.

[01:23:54]So Dominica is not a democratic country.

[01:23:59]Thank you.

[01:24:00]>> Thanks a lot for this commence. L, you want to take another call?

[01:24:05]>> Yes. Good evening. Yeah, caller.

[01:24:08]>> Good evening to to Lambert and the panel and everybody else.

[01:24:12]>> Yes. I just wanted to point out that this problem with the indigenous people, it seems to be so global and I wonder why. If somebody could answer, why is it so global that indigenous people are just persecuted, you know, over and over and there seems to be no end to it. You have people of African descent who come after the colonizers and they keep up the the tradition.

[01:24:42]Oh, we have a prime minister of African descent and he's keeping up that same tradition while saying that he's done the most for the Kalenago people, but he says that on one side of his mouth, but look how he treats the chief.

[01:24:58]So, you know, I I if somebody could give me an answer, I would appreciate it.

[01:25:02]Gentlemen, good evening.

[01:25:04]>> Good evening and thanks a lot for the contribution. You take another call, Lambi.

[01:25:08]>> Yes, caller, please go ahead.

[01:25:10]>> Yeah. Blessings, blessings, blessings to you all, all the Kalago people and the gentlemen that my favorite friend, Dr. Alvin Andre, are you there, sir?

[01:25:21]>> Yes, I am minding my business.

[01:25:25]>> Okay, sir. Christine and Sheridan and everybody love the blessings. Just a few things quickly. I am an Afrocalago man.

[01:25:36]Chrisin, maybe you can write that down.

[01:25:37]I don't know if that term is being um adopted, but I'm an Afrocalago man. I have a Kalinago Afro sister.

[01:25:46]All right. And my father, aunt or grand aunt was Afro Kalinago as well. I'm listening to the whole discuss and it is disgusting to see as an afro or what they call African. I'm not into black and white. There is no white.

[01:26:07]There is no black people. I'm dealing with ethnicity, not even race.

[01:26:14]a people that have faced the brutality and the intensity of the furnace of hell as African people to be treating an indigenous people in that way. And if it is not I am not we have not the machinery to be racist. We are just discriminating and being quite prejuditial against an indigenous people because we are suffering from that amnesia based on our ambition to replace the oppressors that have beaten us down to the to a pulp and how dare we trick the kalinago people like that. You hear about that administration. Chavez gave about how much 10 or5 million dollars to the to this present regime to the for the kalinago people it has been it disappeared or misused or whatever. So I am just saying within the curriculum that govern our education educational board or whatever it is. I did not go to school but I can remember kalinago people they say so the kalago people are savages they eat the arowaks and many other negative thing oh you can fool them with rum and all these things me that were not at school I could hear that all over the road what are we doing within the structure of education even that religion the most toxic and lethal weapon on a global scale particularly for African people and other indigenous people. What are we doing within the structure of religion and education to remedy that level of discrimination and even in politics quite tribalistic religion is the same thing too where there have to be that divide and rule. I hear brother talk about the division in the kalinago maybe the different tribes or clans or whatever it is. We are sick like that BECAUSE GUESS WHAT? THERE is a in conclusion a an obvious or hidden agenda to feel threatened even within the structure of the family by anybody that want to progress and climb higher and shine brighter than us. So is it something structural or deliberate or something in our subconscious state where we figure out if you can figure out in your subconscious state but if it is deliberate or by design you can say if we give them too much of a leeway the kalago people grow too strong and then they'll pose a threat to us what is wrong with mankind it seems like is a cyclical disease that has infected mankind where they figure out. I cannot give you too much leverage because one day you'll be stronger than me. Thank you.

[01:29:08]>> Yeah. And thanks a lot for these very thoughtprovoking remarks. I'm sure that our panelists will maybe have some comments about this. Lambi, you want to take another call? Okay. So, so Joel, let me go over to you because you were looking to make some comments a moment ago.

[01:29:27]>> Right. So, let me just say this. Since 2011, even before I was an attorney at law, um we worked myself and um an attorney who was a fiscal volunteer incidentally um we worked on on reforms or amendment to the Kalenago Act, right? Um those amendments uh were presented to the Kalago chief and council. I am sure. Right. Subsequent to that, one of the recommendations was to change the name of the act from Karib to Kalinagago.

[01:30:07]These were one of the recommendations.

[01:30:10]What I know became of these recommendations and I cannot say for sure that the chief at the time actually placed before the national government all of the recommended amendments to the to the legislation.

[01:30:26]What I can say for sure is that I listen to the debate of the name change from Karib to Kalinagago and one of the one of the things I was certain of is that the national parliament, right, a a a African majority national parliament did not possess any sensitivity to the rights of indigenous people which had been prevailing within the international system as Mr. Greg were rightly pointed out for more than 30 years by that time they were entirely uninformed. None of them spoke. There was no amendment or change to the contents of the legislation. Simply the the name of the legislation, right? One of the require one of So when Mr. Mr. Hill all of the all of the provisions of the international legislation were part of the recommendations for reform to that legislation. So it's not solely how do you acquire the resources to run the operations of the governing structure of the indigenous peoples. I am solely making that recommendation not in isolation of what else is required to ensure that we have a governing and a legal structure that is accountable and that and that can include people with capacity and that can work within a a modern governing framework. Right? And lastly, I would want to say this. I do not believe that the a government minister or a prime minister should have veto discretional power over the acts of the kalinago chief. I believe those that power should be remitted to the court.

[01:32:39]The court can re should should be the one reviewing the decisions of the Kalago chief and council to make a determinations as to whether or not these decisions are reasonable. The national the the the executive should not have that power because again you are dealing with a a a body that has quasi autonomy under international law and rightfully so. Right? So you a nation having to review the actions of another nation is an anomaly in in logic and law. Thank you very much.

[01:33:18]>> Thanks a lot. Um I want to go to Kimmani but let's let's take a call. Let's take quickly take a call from Lambi.

[01:33:25]>> Caller please go ahead.

[01:33:28]>> To you Mr. Gentlemen. Good evening. I I just tuned in kind of late but before your show goes to the end Sheridan to you and the guest and especially to the former ambassador Mr. It's been Grego.

[01:33:47]I want to make a suggestion to the Kalago people because me I have a problem holding mouth. I'm going to make a suggestion tonight from this day on that the Kalago people are treated equally in Dominica like they always should have.

[01:34:09]And on the panel tonight you have educated men who are kalinagos.

[01:34:14]they should also be fighting for that suggestion I will put forward. First of all, I would like to uh uh propose that the government give equal space on the parliament floor. Kalinago should have a representative in the governance of this country at every step of the way, every move it makes. The reason I'm saying that we are at a juncture today where they have to uh uh torn down a mountain right to do mining pollute a river. This wickedness that's taking place that the government has destroyed a river the people's livelihood with heavy metal going into that river which is going to destroy the marinite.

[01:35:05]You talking about mercury and all the other heavy metals. When these things get in your body, you're dead. You done.

[01:35:12]Mercury don't never leave your body.

[01:35:14]When these things, chemical get in your body. They are cancer causing and they are slow death. It's a slow poison. Like I said, Roosevelt is poisoning the people of Dominica. He has destroyed two, three rivers and people still supporting that kind of nonsense. So that's one suggestion. Okay. Kalago need full representation on the floor. They don't need nobody in a area to represent them. They are a people with great minds. They should represent themsel in the parliament. Secondly, I think the Galago people should take the government of Dominica to court for the abuse and the destruction of their uh territorial waters and land because what they are doing, what the government is doing is crouching on the people's rights to live freely like every other man on the country in the country and to make decisions for themselves. They are educated enough. They have you have a a a lady that is a a a kalinago chief today and she's a warrior real strong sister Annet Sanford she can do it the the the the husband is very well educated he can do it we have Joshua who is kalenago afro kalenago he can do it there are many people educated enough and strong enough to do it but most importantly the government must do right by the people and I say take the government to court to the world court for indigenous people's rights because there is a channel that you could go and have these things taken care of and put the government feet to the fire. It's too much talking been going on in Dominic and people fighting for some tonight and they go to sleep tomorrow.

[01:37:03]You get nothing like that. You put on a fight and you stay the fight until you get results. I'm listening. Good night.

[01:37:12]>> Well, thanks a lot. Uh I think the caller might be suggesting that the kalenago chief should be a member of parliament. I'm not sure maybe it's something to consider. All right. So Jo so Kimmani let me just come back to you for your further comments.

[01:37:25]>> Thank you Mr. G and thanks Joel and and Nichi for expounding on the topics as you did and I just want to touch on a few things and kind of share my own opinion on that. So for example um on the on the issue of first of all Mr. what you were just saying whether the kalang chief should be in parliament among kalagos that has been that is something that's established that is something that we want it's just something we've not been able to to to to accomplish um in terms of whether we should disband the office of the the the ministry of kalago upliftment I I look at it from from the view of kalago the the the leverage that the kalago people have as as a community so so so for example currently if we can and this is this is much more likely to happen that we could get our chief as a member of parliament or or or rather being able to speak in parliament as opposed to a government agreeing to give up the constituency and the representative there but from from a cal perspective if I'm the chief and and I'm I'm running a united nation I'm I'm I'm running a community that's united we know what we want we know that in 50 years we we want to have you know want to have this kind this we want to have a stadium we want to have we want to have a tongue we want to have a strip a strip mall whatever the case may be that that's how a lot of some are European but I will just say here that whenever kagos live and go outside they don't they don't go look for the the most remote village right they go they go to cities because that's what the kind of services that's kind of infrastructure that we want just like anybody else but from from the perspective of the chief I would much rather have my ability to stand in the in the parliament but also have another another person the the power rep who can be in parliament as well as a senator or two senators from other parties who are also in parliament. So now we have four kilagos in parliament rather than one. And for me if we can collaborate among ourselves and we can we can understand hey yes we have our political differences but there are some things that we need as a nation we need our nation to survive. We have certain goals that we want to meet by certain times. I I think them being working together and having a voice in parliament can get us a little bit further and I think it might be more it might be more achievable than the other way around. Um I also wanted to kind of touch on what what what uh my friend Bishi was saying in terms of uh Kago access to the to the loans board the funds that they have and yes the problem exists and and these problems have existed for a while but like like like like Ni pointed out like the PAL rep was there in the in the parliament and he did not think well you know I have a responsibility here for me to say something a good nationalist will understand that hey this is the this is the moment I need to speak something important is happening for my people there's an opportunity on the table I need to jump at it sim similarly the the current parl and the power before him they saw they saw the the potential advantages that the UN drip the United Nation declaration rights indigenous peoples if adopted locally could offer to the calago people but they did not feel it was important enough to take action on it another matter here my the gentleman here Paris spoke about him himself working with that that that peace call volunteer Luma actually it was during Ghana's term and they they did submit that they did submit that to the government but what what what happened with it to me I don't yes the government has a responsibility but for me kalago first and foremost have a responsibility to kagago like oh we are responsible for our upliftment who was the power rep when when when the chief and his council submitted that uh proposal to the to the government to say hey we we want we want those changes like what did the powerup say what have the powerup said since like are we expecting that black mo from Mahu is the one who's going to solve Kalago problems that he's going to love us more that we love oursel for him to actually take actions and I I I think that is a is a is a matter of disempowerment our people feel like think feel where where we don't think that we can really solve those problems ourselves and it's not that we we must solve by ourselves but we have to take the primary responsibility like it is up to us for us to organize. We are we are the ones who have inherited that mission from our ancestors. Therefore, we are the ones who have been tasked and are responsible to do it. And yes, nowhere I've gone I I find a government who is super eager to give indigenous people everything they ask for. It it is a struggle and if we if we if we are going to prevail and we are going to get to our national goals, get to our development goals, we have to we have to organize among ourselves so that we can prevail like h have a meeting of former PAL reps, former chiefs, nichi gentlemen there ex distinguished gentlemen like that sunfod Joshua have they all come together and said hey what is it we all have different political views. What is it we can agree on together? What is it we can approach the government with? When is the time of the year for us? When is the when is that time of the year for us to make an approach to the government? When when is the budget cycle? When when are they taking consultations about what what they what rules they're going to do, what they're going to put in the budget, that kind of thing. We need to be looking at those things and strategically targeting those windows and saying, "Okay, when those things happen, we're going to organize ourselves and put and put that step forward." And right now we I feel like when I when I speak to most Kalagos, the way they speak about the issue is like they they still we are still deferring to the government of Dominica as if they really they're going to do it for us and they're not. And there are there there are many ways I think that we can um allow ourselves to rise economically.

[01:43:22]Not definitely the KGO bank um because we we see ourselves as as as a growing nation and today our population might be 2006 but in in 20 years we want it to be 10,000 and in 50 years we we want it to be 20,000 or whatever the case may be whatever time it is for ourselves. So even if that institution struggles to grow like it needs to grow through those growing pains, the people needs to learn those lend those lessons. The the institution needs to learn those those rules and and build itself. And it needs to make those mistakes, iterate and keep going. But we can we have to do that.

[01:43:59]And I council, former counselor Nichi here would would also know that when he campaigned with the the current government, there was the um special economic zone on the table and for that that is a super important thing for the Kalago people. It was duty duty-free access um for certain goods in the Kalago territory which would it would certainly give the KGO people a certain advantage in that certain area over the rest of Dominicans. But that Elden would not have been such an advantage that it would have taken away all the advantage that the rest of Dominique already has. So I think that was something that was very possible.

[01:44:34]But again when have you heard our power rep speak spoken about that? Like is it Mr. Scar's responsibility to come and tell us that we need that? Like this is our thing. We we are the ones who want it. And I I do have things I want to say but I will I close here. I just want to say that just recently when the prime minister made some made a speech and he and he spoke about you know like I'm the first government to uh to to to to treat the people with dignity or or dignified or whatever he said like I don't know what he's talking about like I don't my dignity doesn't come from anything to do with car of the prime minister and the government my dignity come from the fact that I have inherited a mission from my parents from my from my grandparents from from the the soil I was born on from understanding and empathizing with the suffering of the people around me. I have that mission. That is where my duties come from. It has nothing to do with whatever this government has done.

[01:45:29]Like my view my my horizon here is much longer than this government and it go also goes back much longer than that government. So Kenagos have been here fighting for our land for a thousand years. Hey maybe it was that time I fell on the ground and I ate some dirt and the blood of the thousands of millions of kagos who have died there went went into me and I inherited the spirit. But I I understand that I have that mission and there's certain things I need to do to get it going. And I think that all of us as as Kagos need to need to kind of come to that understanding that hey we we like literally I I love Nichi. I love these guys. I like we we we are connected in a way that we cannot explain to anybody else and we can expect them to understand it except for us to make it real ourselves. I will leave it there.

[01:46:16]>> Thanks a lot for that. Lamb, you want to take a call?

[01:46:21]>> Yeah, caller, please go ahead.

[01:46:23]>> Yes. Um, I'm just I just I don't want to make a long story short speech, but I just want to make something very simple here. It was the honorable Rosie Douglas who um introduced and created this um um Kenagago um division. Now, what what I would like to say two things and it going to be very short. If we accept that freedom is an inaliable right, then another human being need not vote for freedom. What we need is constitutional structural changes to introduce autonomy to the Kalago people. Period. And we must accept that they are free. They are fellow human beings and therefore they need not vote for their freedom. The instructions people put in place constitutionally. This government could certainly do it. Have been around for long enough. and the all the other parochial issues that you all are talking about should be put within the structure of an autonomous region in the country. Two two senators in parliament to represent the Kagago people. Apart from the analogy of this of this par and then the chief being elected in the car territory that nonsense has to stop. The autonomous region will put and place its representative in the parliament. The parliamental operator must a biccarmon parliament that acknowledges the rights of the kalago people and perhaps on issues of international affairs where there are direct issues involving the kalago people and the aboriginal people around the world. They will lead on those discussion. Other than that the state could continue to represent the both um regions of the country in terms of internationally uh and a transition period should be put in place so that the education perhaps contributions from the state to assist to ensure that um those standards are maintained and maybe on policing eventually internal policing would rest directly with the autonomous region which would be the Kaga region I think it's complete foolishness for us to be talking in 2026 that we don't want to talk about the fundamental constitutional issue of autonomy for the Kalago people. I have been I have been professing this for some time now had debates on it had discussions on it. I have spoken in the in the territory about it. We need to stop this foolishness and put in place the structural changes for full autonomy for the Galago people.

[01:48:58]Those are my comments TN.

[01:49:00]>> Yeah, thanks a lot for that. Um, I know I know everybody hold on hold on hold on hold on hold on I know everybody in the panel will want to make a comment on this and including Dr. Andre but I I I need to go to Mark to you know Mark you have any thoughts on this?

[01:49:18]Yes, thank thank you Mr. G. Um I I did recognize the caller before um he actually stated his name, >> right?

[01:49:26]>> He is my cousin after all. So should be familiar with the voice.

[01:49:30]>> Um as everyone is speaking about autonom autonomy, uh I'm reminded by a very simple uh quote uh that we remind ourselves of all the time in the United States. Turkeys do not celebrate Thanksgiving.

[01:49:48]Turkeys do not celebrate Thanksgiving.

[01:49:51]>> True. True. Very true.

[01:49:53]>> I I at this point in life as a lawyer have my doubts as to whether or not a legal institution can preserve empowerment and autonomy for a disenfranchised group.

[01:50:16]give you a quick example that's very current in our times. We're all familiar with the Civil Rights Act in the United States, the Civil Rights Movement. One of the things that came of that was the Voting Rights Act.

[01:50:32]And recently the Supreme Court of the United States decided that they would strike down the TE that which permits people to actually enforce the right to vote. And immediately after that, you found that legislators have moved to redistrict to eliminate the rights of black people to vote in certain parts of the United States. Now, if if you thought that the Voting Rights Act was successful in preserving the rights of black people to vote in America, today you must doubt that.

[01:51:13]So, the question is, what structures can you put in place in Dominica that would be able to resist the political will?

[01:51:24]And frankly, um I I think one of the reasons why Joel um invited me here today is because he knows that my bread is not buttered in Dominica.

[01:51:36]I love my country, but thankfully um I financially um earn outside of Dominica, so I have the ability to speak more freely. I can appreciate fully why more people in Dominica do not speak freely.

[01:51:54]I do not think that this government would be one that would enact policies that would ensure kalinago autonomy.

[01:52:10]Turkeys do not celebrate Thanksgiving.

[01:52:15]When I think about a sovereign, can one sovereign empower another?

[01:52:23]I would submit that they cannot a a sovereign cannot receive its authority from another otherwise it's dependent and that is contrary to sovereignity.

[01:52:37]When I hear the prime minister say things like, "I'm going to empower the Kalago chief," it shocks me that he thinks that power resides within him to bestow it upon another sovereign.

[01:52:59]And if we're expecting policies to come out of that that would respect uh Kalanago, the Kalanago's right to self-determination, I I think that's foolhardy. Even if it were to happen, um just like the vehicle that was granted to the Kalanago uh chief and taken away, uh it could always be taken away at a later date if you disagree uh with their policies openly. uh if you criticize them, even if your criticisms are legitimate, um those rights can be taken away. So I I would encourage one Dominicans that uh respect their brothers and sisters and I I view the Kalago, I may be one myself, who knows? Um but I view them as my brothers and sisters at the very least.

[01:53:52]ask ourselves, are there any things that we're doing that stand in the way of the Ko Konago's right to self-determination or disrespected in any way? They're little things. I remember Joel brought up to me, he asked me the question, do you what monuments are there in Dominica that you're aware of that celebrate the the heritage and the history of the Kanago people? Well, put that aside.

[01:54:23]What monuments do we have in Dominica that disrespect the history of the Kalago people?

[01:54:29]We have names of places like that are named after individuals like Thomas Warner.

[01:54:36]Why do we celebrate that?

[01:54:38]I know as a black man in America, there are certain places that I would not go to and feel comfortable.

[01:54:45]If you if I go to a town that's named after a general of the Confederacy, I should ask myself, am I safe there?

[01:54:55]And so I think there are little things that we can do.

[01:55:00]I think practically speaking though, empowerment has to come from the Kalanago people and we as Dominicans have to support that but we cannot grant it. Um it has to be taken. That's just my opinion.

[01:55:20]>> Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot for that. M Dr. Andre I want to go back to you for your further comments on this. you know, because the discussion has taken an interesting turn and we're talking about sovereignty here and um and in fact, we we we we alluded to this a little earlier in in my opening remarks about whether the the Kalinago people are fully embraced in the overall Dominican situation. And so your your thoughts on all of this, Dr. Andre?

[01:55:50]>> Well, I think the fundamental question is embraced in what respect?

[01:55:55]You see, embraced in what respect?

[01:55:59]Are they accorded the type of status that should be accorded to them given their unique historical experience and given the fact that they've bore the brunt of all that was negative in terms of the subjugation of people? The question is no.

[01:56:19]What programs have been directed other than the upliftment or the opportunities given to certain folks some of them are here who've done well succeeded become professionals but as a community what programs have been sought to uplift the people the majority of Kaago folks again what have we done are we still operating on the old stereotypes somebody one of Yeah, I think it was blessings referred to the negative stereotypes, the denigratory comments made towards the Kalanago folk, their proclivities for alcohol, the fact that they were easy from a sexual perspective. What have we done? How far have we moved along a progression of change to get rid of those types of stereotypes? And you only get rid of stereotypes by giving people opportunities to excel to prove them wrong. Have we done enough of that as as a community? In my respectful view, the answer is no. I don't think we can get out of that community. And again, what concerns me today quite frankly is the dependency.

[01:57:35]The dependent the cultivated dependency.

[01:57:38]We're not talking about cultivation of bananas here. We are talking about cultivating dependency and that continues unabated. That is a recipe for disaster.

[01:57:48]You know, somebody said and I agree with that person totally that within the bosom of its own suffering, the Kalago people have the capacity to uplift themselves.

[01:58:01]But we have to create the nurturing environment for that to take place.

[01:58:05]quite frankly. Um, I could talk, but anyway, I'll I'll reserve some my my comments and so on. But the Kalanago folks are no less resilient, they're no less determined than any other person in any other neighborhood in Dominica to be quite frank with you.

[01:58:26]But if this system doesn't get off the backs of these people by starving them of o opportunities, by depriving them of income, by depriving them of economic activities, then who are we to maintain this high and mighty attitude and look down on these folk? I mean, look at the the the response to the the heavy rains a few weeks ago. For God's sakes, where is that national response to that problem? A problem which apparently persists. We just have to wait and pray that the next heavy rainfall is not as debilitating as that one experienced a few weeks ago. How can the people live and prosper in a situation where their very livelihood is under threat and they have to pray that the next rainfall is not as heavy as the previous one?

[01:59:22]What safeguards have we offered them? I heard one of your government folks talk about the number of hurricane shelters.

[01:59:30]How many of them exist in the Kagago territory? I have no idea for God's sakes. You know, so we have to stop paying lip service to the whole discourse and narrative about equality and we are all one and let us unite.

[01:59:46]Unite over what? Unite over poverty.

[01:59:49]Huh? How can you deprive a people of resources to develop themselves? And we're preaching a gospel of unity. Does that make any sense to you? So it seems to me that we have to stop paying lip service to the folk in the Kalago territory and give this folk the respect they deserve and the resources that can assist them in quite frankly taking care of themselves and giving them much better prospects in an independent Dominica. Now I say independent in a very loose and glib fashion and I leave it at that. One of our our our panelists was talking about the practicalities of Kaledago self-governance and he made reference to the fraud um which was evident in the last council. But let me ask you this, where is the biggest fraud being perpetrated in the circles and corridors of governance in Dominica in the Kalenago Council? H tell me where is it? It's right up at um Mr. Gregoire, that place you know so well, Kennedy Financial Center. That's where the fraud exists in spades.

[02:01:04]>> So when we speak about governance and and corruption, let us look at the bigger perspective for God's sakes.

[02:01:12]Dominica has become a metaphor for corruption, not the Kyago territory.

[02:01:17]Thank you.

[02:01:18]>> Thank you, Dr. Andrew. Now, you know, well, time has a has a way of running out on us and um we're coming down to the close of the program. I'm going to go around the table and take the the kind of closing remarks from each of of our panelists here tonight. But, you know, I want to go first to Joelle. And Joel, in making your closing remarks, could you sort of address this? Um, what do you envision it? What do you envision as an important development aspirations for the Kalinago people?

[02:01:46]>> Mr. Gregwell, I'm honorable to hear you.

[02:01:50]You're you're not able to hear me.

[02:01:53]Well, you I'm not sure why you're not able to hear me. I believe all the other panelists can hear me. Can they?

[02:01:59]Yes. So, I'm not so sure why you're not able to hear me. So, something is wrong with your um setup. No, you need to you need to do something to fix your um So, okay, we'll give we'll give Joel a chance to fix his fix up his setup. Let let me go to Kimmani for his closing remarks. And I was saying Kimani that um you know in making your closing remarks and maybe you could share with us some thoughts as well in terms of what you envisionage as important development aspirations for the Kalinago people from now through to 2030 when I imagine the Kalago people will be commemorating 100 years since the presence of a British warship in Salib in 1930.

[02:02:42]Thank thank you for the opportunity.

[02:02:45]>> Well, I I would say that um >> just give me a quick moment here.

[02:02:56]>> Mr. G, could you repeat that question?

[02:02:59]>> Yes. I I was saying that um could you uh you know give us some thoughts on um Yeah. Hold on just one second.

[02:03:11]Um yes I was saying give us some thoughts on what you envisage as important development aspirations for the kalago people from now through >> Mr. G we are unable to hear you I am I I cannot hear you at all >> you're not hearing >> money I am not able to hear Mr. Uh, so who's who's anybody hearing me?

[02:03:37]>> Try Facebook.

[02:03:40]>> I Everybody's hearing me. I'm not so sure.

[02:03:42]>> We can hear you. We can see you.

[02:03:44]>> So So Kimmani, you you can hear me and see me.

[02:03:46]>> Yes.

[02:03:47]>> All right. So I'm I'm I'm addressing Kimmani now. Joel, we'll come back to you in a minute. Um so Kimmana was saying um if you could address your thoughts what what it is that you envisionage as important development aspirations for the Kalinago people from now through to 2030 when I imagine the Kalinago people will be commemorating 100 years since the presence of a British warship in in Salib in 1930.

[02:04:13]>> Well Mr. J I think that the Kalago people has um similar development goals to any other any other people you know like we want we want to have a decent standard of living. I want to make sure that for example I want my grand I want my grandparents my siblings my my my cousins I want them to have good access to health care. I want them to have health insurance that they know that that the next time that the next time they have a a medical condition, they they're not worried or they're not they're not staying away from going to the doctor because they don't have the money. They they don't they cannot afford a test.

[02:04:47]The the the road the road conditions in the territory would would have been significantly changed. So when when we look at what the Kalago people want, right? We want great service, public services, great public infrastructure.

[02:05:02]And when when when we think about what what that actually looks like, it looks like a tongue. So I think that we need to be a little bit more intentional about how we develop the community.

[02:05:15]30 years from now, our population is going to be much larger than it is today. So we can either plan for that or we can just keep just keep going you know just keep filling our way around and if we plan for that there are certain things that we have to do. We have to know okay look that that that that that road needs to be a certain size by that certain time. So we can we can have people um building their house right on on the sidewalk. So so rules like that we we know that for example every time it rains the the floods come down it it takes away all land. We have limited land.

[02:05:51]Every piece of can land loss that we have it is it is almost an existential issue for us. So a community that thinks about this and wants to solve this problem long term to understand, hey, we're going to be there for the next 100 years. We're going to build our community in like a place that's going to be there for the next 100 years. So we we we need we need storm drains from the mountains to the seas. We need feeder roads across the territory. We we we we might want to um amalgamate c certain um villages for example bak and k river doesn't need to be two separate villages we can make it into an administrative area s can be an administrative area when when when that city when when that tongue that that kago refuge that place that kagago don't have to run away from and that kagos who have left can come back and feel that hey I can go home I I don't have I can go back among my people and leave among them and honor my culture, which I may not be able to do when I'm out there. That place, the way it looks, is a a beautiful town in the Kalago territory run by either a mayor or or a Kalago chief that has really um an executive position that has moved from being a village council leader to a proper leader of a nation. And in my view of of of that Kalago nation of Kalago in the future, it is not separate from Dominica. It is not a separate state. That is not what we want. We want our people to enjoy a proper standard of living. We we want to build a community that honors the thousand-y year legacy that our ancestors left for us. And I think that we we we have a right to do that. And we we I would like to I would like our communities to come together and understand that hey, these are the things we need to do. We need to end the this um this huge problem we have a brain drain where the majority of our young people in the community leaves and never comes back. We we have unemployment problems, we have health problems, those kind of issues.

[02:07:47]Our goal is to solve those issues, we we we need to solve them in in in a holistic and sustainable way, a way that that's going to last for a very long time. And when when when we look at okay, what all those all those various solutions all over all over the place that we're looking looking at, what does that look like in reality? And to me it looks like Kalago town or Salibia the second largest town in Dominica whatever we want to call it. Maybe the next chief will have some interesting ideas. But the place I envision 20 30 years from now or in well 2030 is pretty close. But 30 years from now is Kagos are rich. We don't have to run to any way of us to be able to take care of our families. We we can we can we can do instead of Dominicans looking down at Kalagos, I want to hear I want to hear Afro Dominicans or creoles saying that we're Afrogo. I want everyone to be Kalago. I I want I want us to expand our definition. Not not not holistically over Dominica, but rather than use looking at the reserve as a place to make us smaller or to keep us from the rest of the world, I want us to look at it as a place that empowers us. And when when we strengthen ourself, when we strengthen oursel enough, we want to be able to say, "Hey, hey, Dominica, like we we we love you guys and we've done these great things with our community, with our people. We we we want that for you, too. We want we want that proper brotherhood that that that was always supposed to be there, that was never properly established. We want to get to that point. That that's what we're doing. All of the rest of it is just the details of how to get there.

[02:09:24]>> Thank you, Mr. G." And the audience.

[02:09:26]>> Yeah. Thanks a lot, Kimani. Um, let let me just go to Mark. Um, Mark, we we've heard many comments here tonight from our panelists, from the callers, many suggestions.

[02:09:38]Your thoughts on the way forward for the Kin people of Dominica.

[02:09:43]>> Um, so I'm going to >> Yeah, I can hear I can hear everyone else. I just can't hear Mr. G.

[02:09:50]>> Okay. Um, well, we can hear you, Joel.

[02:09:52]So maybe at at some point if that continues one of us can uh um assist.

[02:10:00]Can you hear me Joel?

[02:10:02]>> Yes we can hear you.

[02:10:04]>> Okay. Um so I I would break my response into three parts. Uh the first thing I think that uh we can do um or the the first suggestion I would make uh would be to consider what structural impediments are there? What inequalities exist within our laws? Now I I made the point earlier on that our laurels cannot empower but they can disenfranchise and uh one of the things that we should uh undertake to do is to consider what laws are in place today that enshrine inequalities for the kalanago people.

[02:10:56]The next thing uh that I think that is important for empowerment is resources.

[02:11:07]You know, when I think of the American history of a slave or or slavery ending and then um putting them out into the world to then fend for themselves without adequate resources. There's very thing there's very few things that you can do when your primary objective is how are you going to feed yourself and you know your health. How are you going to take care of your health? Someone said the other day I heard a quote that you know when you're healthy you have 101 problems but when you're sick you only have one.

[02:11:53]And if you're not sufficiently resourced as a people, it is very hard to envision a prosperous future.

[02:12:06]And so I think we have to find practical ways to in infuse uh the Kanago people with resources. Now someone mentioned uh suing the government. Uh, one of the callers mentioned that I I would say don't don't don't do that. Um, at least don't sue this government. Perhaps consider the government that initially took the Konagago's people's lands and then created a legal system by which they were exonerated from any accountability and responsibility.

[02:12:43]That government probably has more money than the Dominican government. But I think um they are responsible. We should never forget historically that they are.

[02:12:56]Just because they granted independence doesn't mean that they're not responsible till still to this day for the situation that they created.

[02:13:07]Uh we also talked about financing. Uh there was the uh soft loans um that are available to uh you know government workers and how that's not available to uh the Kanaga people because uh they lack collateral. I think we should encourage the private sector uh to think more creatively.

[02:13:35]There was a time in this world when land was not a desirable form of collateral.

[02:13:43]There was a time when the most valuable form of collateral was actually slaves.

[02:13:49]People would actually borrow money.

[02:13:51]Banks would would lend money based off of the amount of slaves that someone held.

[02:14:00]I think in Dominica uh when I when I consider financing from my work, I see very creative forms of financing that allow banks to feel secure that they have collateral, but it's not in the form of real property. Uh it I've seen lease holds that are served with collateral. There are artists that use their royalties as collateral. Um, so I I would probably say that we need to uh as a private sector think more creatively about ways that we can broaden access to the resources that are available to Dominicans that include and not exclude the Kanagu people. Um, so I will leave it at that. There's much more we can say, but thank you very much. I appreciate the uh opportunity to speak with you all this evening. Yes, I'm sure there's a lot more to say. I mean, there's always a lot more to say. Joel, are you with us again? Are you hearing me all right now?

[02:14:59]>> Yes, I I can hear you. I can hear you well now.

[02:15:01]>> Okay, great. So, we we're down to the closing remarks now and um I was uh saying, well, look, of all the suggestions, of all the comments that we've had from the panelists, from the callers and all the ideas, uh what what do you envision as a way forward for the Kalago territory? Yeah, I anticipated right interestingly because of my read of parliament just looking at parliamentary proceedings and understanding when kalago issues emerge.

[02:15:29]I'm speaking specifically about parliament because that is where we enact legislation, right? And when I ever I observe parliament and issues surrounding the the the the touching and concerning the kalanago people, I tend to test where we are as a society from the narrative of the national parliament regarding kalenago people.

[02:16:00]My conclusion before this evening was it is a very backward place to be if you are interested in modernizing legislation regarding indigenous peoples. But from being part of this panel tonight, I I I I must say that I am comforted by the idea that there is hope that among my Afrodinican brothers and sisters that we can find support towards our liberation.

[02:16:43]And I would want to add to that where do I think that this struggle should go? We need constitutional acknowledgments and guarantees that reflect the rights of indigenous peoples inherently.

[02:17:08]That is where um because all as as rightly expressed by by the caller who is Mark's cousin I think I can't remember his name but thank you for calling.

[02:17:24]Once the constitutional guarantees and acknowledgments are made then we could deal with the other minute issues of finance of governance right we could deal with these issues but we need the constitutional guarantees thank you thank you Mr. G for the opportunity. Thank you, Justice Andre.

[02:17:51]Thank you to to the ambassador. Thank you, Mark. Thank you, Nichi. Thank you, Kimmani. Thank you to the to the Dominican public for the opportunity to be heard by you. And I think I think this conversation tonight has been enriching.

[02:18:10]>> Thank you, Joel. Um yes I think it has been uplifting certainly enlightening and uh Chrisin we've lost we've lost NI so uh we'll say thanks on his behalf and Christine let me go to you for your closing remarks.

[02:18:26]>> Yes uh uh Mr. G I it's been it's been a fairly enriching discussion tonight. I'm very encouraged about what I heard from different panelists.

[02:18:40]Um, here's what I would say in my closing remarks. The the constitutional guarantees that Joel just talked about to me is the probably the most important pillar for which we we we we we must be a point of departure.

[02:19:07]Um we didn't we didn't um get into the concept of the the the free prior and informed consent which is the thing that came out of the UN declaration.

[02:19:24]That's the core legal principle that and the new guiding international law provision of how indigenous people and governments should work together and and just to um just read something that's important. What does what does that concept mean?

[02:19:44]Free, prior, comma, and informed consent.

[02:19:52]It means promoting full and effective participation of indigenous peoples in decisions which directly or indirectly affect their lifestyles, traditional lands and territories, their cultural integrity.

[02:20:11]peoples with the cultural integrity as ind indigenous people with collective rights or any aspect of their lives considering the principle of free prior and informed consent.

[02:20:28]Now what does that mean in our local context? It means that the kalinago council cannot be treated as an afterthought of central government. Central government has a duty to consult with the Kalinago council on every matter relating to the Kalago territory. And I I was really um taken a back to hear the minister of Kalinago affair saying the other day he didn't put it on his on the ministries's website or put out a position paper as the minister. He put it on his Facebook page. So I'm not sure if the government endorses that view. But he said something that was really disturbing to me and that is when it comes to disasters the the notion of this principle of free prior and informed consent is not relevant that the central government must take precedence and do what is necessary for the indigenous people. I say the answer to that that is a wrong concept and the minister really needs to apologize for saying that because he can't go to any international forum and say that they will run him off the stage. I'll tell you that.

[02:21:56]So this notion of not consulting with the chiefs and the despicable behavior of the prime minister towards the chief, I really think he needs to apologize to to the to the Kalinago people for how he behaved towards the chief and ignored the reality of the fact that the chief was herself and her family a victim of the disaster.

[02:22:20]for him to go to the territory and even say that he's the prime minister who helped the Kalinago people the most. Of course, you've been serving for 25 years in government. If you if you who else has served in that role so long, so you should have done far more for the indigenous people. Now, here's what I recommend going forward that the kalinago council and the chief write to the United Nations special repertoire on indigenous people. This is the person that the UN appointed to go around the world and listen to the the the reality of indigenous people in their various jurisdictions and to engage the government and the indigenous people to collectively reach a common understanding of their rights and how it will be enshrined in law.

[02:23:17]Clearly the carib act has outlived its its usefulness.

[02:23:22]There are some things in there that could be used, but I am saying that the UN should be called in to do a complete overhaul and an exhaustive review of the status of the Kalinago people and then to make recommendations jointly joint recommendations between government and Kalinago for how the new regime will be in place by 2030. And that's what I'll say for tonight. Thank you, Mr. G.

[02:23:50]>> Yeah, thanks a lot. Thanks a lot. Chris been uh Patrick himself he had some issues uh he had to drop off but he's listening and I was trying to get showing to admit him he's backstage now I mean I'm hoping that showing Alami could could admit him so that he could he could join us before before we close but in in his absence there I would go to Dr. Andre for his um for his final word.

[02:24:17]>> Well let let me congratulate your panelist Mr. G. I think they all made stilling and excellent contributions to this discourse and I think certainly the future of the Karago territory are uh the future is in good hands to be quite honest with you. Um, we have talked about constitutional guarantees, which is a wonderful thing. But the sad and inconvenient truth is that if your leaders have no use or respect for your constitution, then you can have a thousand constitutional guarantees, it will not be worth the paper on which it is written.

[02:25:01]You need a commitment to equal rights and justice in Dominica by those who hold the seats of power.

[02:25:09]This is in a sense this is not just a matter of Kalago versus non-calago folks. It's a matter of those who are poor and those who are powerful.

[02:25:21]This government has introduced programs to enrich or to enable or to assist small business owners.

[02:25:30]From what I know, small certain small business owners have contributed thousands of dollars to get a fair share of the pie.

[02:25:41]And what do you have? Foreign companies being given millions of dollars in tax-free concessions. Some are not paying taxes. Some are not paying taxes on the pretext that they don't speak English.

[02:25:56]And yet in its hour of need, folks in the Kalinago territory are giving a little $50 to keep them happy or $100 while the largest from Maduro has disappeared.

[02:26:12]What about proarib?

[02:26:16]These were resources given by the Venezuelan government to assist those in need.

[02:26:23]What about those folk in the Caronago territory who could have used some of that free gas or at concessionary prices in terms of their farming, in terms of their transportation needs, in terms of their electricity needs?

[02:26:37]What concessions do they get in terms of electricity?

[02:26:41]You tell me. What relief do they get from high fuel prices as we speak today?

[02:26:48]They're not considered important.

[02:26:51]And so we better take mind or be mindful of the lyrics of someone like Peter.

[02:27:00]What we need are equal rights and justice.

[02:27:05]We don't need platitudes.

[02:27:08]We don't need offers of charity. Quite frankly, we need real change, real assistance that would be transformative of a community that should be the exemplification, of survival, of determination, of courage, of dedication, of preservation.

[02:27:27]But if that commitment is not there, as I said, the constitutional guarantees will be nowhere.

[02:27:35]But I know that with the contributions made this evening by these wonderful folk from the territory, I think the future is well to see. I thank you >> and thank you Dr. King Andre. Uh it's really been a wonderful night. I mean two hours well spent here tonight talking about the Kalago territory. A lot of ideas did come out and I hope some of the powers that be would take those ideas into consideration on the way forward for the Kalako territory.

[02:28:02]But it's just left for me to say good night to all these wonderful people who are with us still with us on Facebook and on YouTube and on the internet in their cars in their offices on you know on Facebook or wherever on YouTube and so thank everybody for sticking with us for the couple of hours and to say good night and thanks to Joel and um Nichi who seems to be backstage and was not admitted to return to the to the program with us and the thanks to Kimmani and um and Mark and Crispen and and you Dr. Andre and Lambi and Shuin. Thank you so much for your wonderful contributions here tonight. So good night everybody. A very pleasant evening. Take care. See you. See you soon.

[02:28:47]>> The global view on Q the big station.

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