2 Guys and a Bible - Responding to Sam Frost and Joel Richardson

Added: 2026-05-28

[00:00:02]And hello everyone. Happy Tuesday afternoon.

[00:00:06]Welcome back to Two Guys in the Bible here on Fulfilled Radio, a voice you can trust. My name is Don K. Preston. Over east of me in Memphis, Tennessee, it is my great friend William Bell. William, good to see you again.

[00:00:18]>> All right. Good to see you. Glad you're doing better.

[00:00:21]>> Yes, sir. Today, as I mentioned to you off camera to today was a very good day.

[00:00:26]Uh I've been in the slang as of yesterday. I've been in the sling for three weeks.

[00:00:30]>> Mhm.

[00:00:31]>> Tomorrow I go I start physical therapy.

[00:00:35]I'm not looking forward to that.

[00:00:41]Uh I I may be singing that song that was on um Oh my goodness. What was that TV show years and years ago? Yeah. Uh no.

[00:00:51]Anyway, gloom, despair, and agony on me.

[00:00:54]>> Oh yeah. Yeah.

[00:00:57]Um, >> anyway, >> I know the one. Yeah, I I Grand Old Opri Opry or something.

[00:01:07]>> No, that wasn't it. It was a spin-off uh of people who had been on the Grand Old Opry, but uh I wanted to call it Yahoo and that's not correct at all.

[00:01:16]>> Okay. All right.

[00:01:16]>> Yeah. So, anyway, they had that song, you know, about gloom, despair, and agony.

[00:01:21]>> Oh, yeah. Yeah, I remember.

[00:01:23]>> Yeah. And I suspect after tomorrow I'll be singing a couple of verses of that song. Um, but hey, that's what's necessary. And so we go through it. Like I said, today was a very good day. Uh, I've only taken one round of Tylenol today. Pain's been very minor. So, I've only got three more three more weeks in the sling. Woohoo. U can't wait to get out of it. You know, I'm not real good at typing with one arm, one hand, and one finger and and the, you know, hunt and peck uh manner. I'm just not good at all at that. Yeah.

[00:02:02]>> So, everything's really slow. All right.

[00:02:04]Well, William, just recently, very recently, and I've had several people contact me and asked me if I'd seen the interview, and I had not until just day or so ago. Uh but Joel Richardson, who is a very popular internet, Yahoo uh YouTube, excuse me, uh figure, he supposedly has somewhere around 100,000 subscribers. Uh he's been on a tear lately condemning the full predtoous view and uh he's had different people on who have ascribed a form of predtoism. He recently had Gary Dear on and he he tried to get Gary to condemn the full printer's view and Gary wouldn't do it.

[00:02:55]It really frustrated Joel Richardson.

[00:02:58]>> I mean it it really frustrated him.

[00:03:00]>> Um but as you know Gary Dear will still affirm a yet future coming of Christ. He has done so recently, but he refuses to condemn the full printer's view and he keeps challenging futurist give me your verses. Well, he did that with Joel Richardson and Joel Richardson wouldn't meet the challenge.

[00:03:22]And so he's been having a lot of figures like that. Uh he he had a fellow named Nigel Taylor from Australia. And I think you know that name.

[00:03:32]>> I know the name.

[00:03:34]>> Yeah. Uh from Australia. Uh Nigel is now uh well he became an atheist and he claimed that he became an atheist because of full predtoism. Well now he's come back and he's some kind of a futurist. Interestingly enough I haven't been able maybe somebody else has. I haven't been able to get Nigel to take a firm position on esquetology.

[00:04:00]It's just well Jesus is coming back >> and predators are heretics.

[00:04:05]Well, that much that's not really much of an esqueological position to take.

[00:04:09]Uh, not very not a very gratifying, but he knows I feel like Nigel knows he he cannot defend any kind of a futurist paradigm uh, exoggetically. So, he's just taken the position that all he'll do now is attack full predtoist leaders such as yourself and myself. uh that we're dishonest.

[00:04:36]We're not dealing with the scriptures properly. So when you when you challenge him, show us show us the error of our ex Jesus. Well, you're just an arrogant so and so on and on and on that he goes like that. And to be honest about it, he's not very good arguing. He's he's just really not very sharp. Uh I don't mean to be unkind, but he's not he's just not very logical. And so this has been Joel Richardson's approach. Now, a little bit of background.

[00:05:08]When he gave his very first video, I challenged him to meet me in formal debate.

[00:05:15]His response was that I'm arrogant and I'm rude >> and that I'm a heretic and that he does not debate heretics.

[00:05:26]>> Well, I always thought heretics were the folks you were supposed to debate.

[00:05:29]>> Yeah.

[00:05:30]you know, so much for that. But no, uh he's more than happy to debate uh people with whom he disagrees. He recently debated Steve Greg, for instance, because even though he disagrees with with Steve, Steve is still Orthodox.

[00:05:50]Now, we probably need need to get into this a little bit in in the program, but from Joel Ripchardson's perspective, you're orthodox if you're a dispensationalist, a historic premillennialist, a postmillennialist, or a nonmillennialist.

[00:06:10]Uh any of those are quote orthodox.

[00:06:14]They're not heretical.

[00:06:18]Makes you wonder which one of them is right.

[00:06:20]Yeah.

[00:06:21]>> But anyway, uh he's been on this terror and so recently, just just a few days ago, within a week or two possibly, uh he has Sam Frost on the program, really touting Sam as maybe the final answer to the full predtoist position.

[00:06:46]And so he asked Sam for his background and Sam said, 'Well, at one time I was one of the top leaders in the printerist movement.

[00:06:58]Now I don't question for a moment that Sam was highly respected.

[00:07:02]Uh he was on a lot of lecturesships.

[00:07:06]I'm not quite sure it would be appropriate, you you tell me.

[00:07:10]Not quite sure it'd be appropriate to call him one of the top leaders in the Predator movement when he was a part of it. What's your thinking on it?

[00:07:18]>> I I agree with you. Um Sam was still finding his way when he was with us and um he even pretty much said that himself, you know, when we would have after meetings >> uh and and talk about things, you know, that's what he was express uh what he would express, you know, during that time. So, and at also at the time I didn't see even though, you know, we invited him to a lot of the meetings because, you know, we we were there, but I didn't see anybody looking at him as the, you know, go-to person for, you know, covenant esquetology. I really didn't. Um, you know, he was respected like anyone who is a good student and a good speaker. He had that respect. But to call him the leader or you know a person who was really a front man for it I don't think so.

[00:08:12]>> Well I agree with that and the point that you made a moment ago there is so very often at a lot of these conferences in the after meetings you know in in the chat areas and what have you as we would get together. Sam was constantly asking questions for clarification so that he could better understand and and so uh he never came across as someone who had quote answers unquote.

[00:08:37]He was trying to find his way. Now again I'm not trying to disparage. I'm simply s pointing out the reality of the fact that Sam it seems to me well I'll I'll use the modern cliche.

[00:08:52]Sam has become a legend in his own mind over the reality that was there when he was active in the predtoist movement. Uh you know there's a saying in sports this is very very very true of me. The older I get the better I was.

[00:09:12]>> That's true of me too.

[00:09:15]Yeah. You know, boy, I'm telling you what, I was a terror on the football field, even though I got to play in a grand total of three games.

[00:09:24]So, uh, and as I've told my wife many, many times when it came to baseball, uh, no, I I got to start very first game of the season. I committed three straight errors. The coach pulled me and that's the last game I played. So, uh, but the older I get now, the better I was. I'll guarantee you that.

[00:09:45]Guarantee you. And it seems to me that there's a little bit of that with Sam Frost in regard to his status while he was active in the Predtoist movement. Uh he was not a long term. I mean, after all, William, you and I have been at this an awful long time. Larry Seagulls has been at it a long time. Jack Scott's been at it an awful long time.

[00:10:06]Comparatively speaking, Sam Frost was a newcomer and he was not a longtimer when he finally decided to leave in what 2011, something like that.

[00:10:19]Uh he'd been associated with the movement for what 10, 11, 12 years perhaps. Uh, but he was he he he didn't have the long-term uh standing and recognition that men like you and Larry and Jack and myself have had over the years. And it's it has been noted and I think this is I think this is worth pointing out. Mike Sullivan and Mike Bennett, friends of mine, friends of yours, I think, uh, have reported on many different occasions that even when Sam was part of the Predtoist movement, he commonly said he would do anything it took to become a professor at a reformed seminary.

[00:11:10]Do anything that it took. Well, guess what it took? renouncing predtoism to become that.

[00:11:18]So from Mike Sullivan's perspective, from uh Bennett's perspective, all that Sam did was keep his word. He was willing to do anything, literally anything. And that meant give up predtoism if that would allow him to become a professor, you know, at a reformed college. Now, is it just coincidental that he said that and then that's what's happened?

[00:11:47]Well, I I'll let our viewers and listeners make up their own uh make up their own mind about that. But during this interview, >> wasn't wasn't there also some communication from uh you know some of the heads of you know maybe one of the schools that he was planning to go to that kind of said that if you know if he was predtoist or if there were any predtoist >> you may remember >> his main mentor in Whitfield College uh seminary uh oh my goodness his his name just escaped me. I'll think of it in a moment. But uh he was constantly challenging Sam on his predtoism.

[00:12:29]>> Mhm.

[00:12:30]>> Now he's patient with him. I will say that.

[00:12:33]But he was constantly challenging him and reminding him that he would never be a professor in a reformed university as long as he was a full predator. So Sam was constantly constantly being exposed to that kind of pressure, that kind of reminder that he was never going to achieve what he wanted as long as he was a predtoist.

[00:12:57]>> Yeah.

[00:12:58]>> So lo and behold, he abandoned predtoism and lo and behold, he is now he's I know he's been an adjunct professor uh at different times.

[00:13:09]he teaches uh he teaches on that particular level. He's gotten his PhD now and what have you. So he has achieved many of the goals that he stated were his goals in order to achieve his ultimate goal of teaching and reform seminary.

[00:13:28]No matter what no matter what he had to give up. Now, William, one of the things uh and he he announced, by the way, on on uh Richardson's program that uh he is bringing out in the very near future a revised edition of why I left full predtoism.

[00:13:54]Now, I posted, pardon me, just this afternoon, I posted in the comment section of that of their video, their interview that his first edition of why I left full predtoism was an absolute mess.

[00:14:11]It had self-contradictions in it, had lo logical fallacies in it.

[00:14:16]It just it was a mess. Have you read that book?

[00:14:19]>> Yeah, I've read it. I've got it.

[00:14:21]>> I I I thought you have. What is your personal impression of Sam Frost first edition of Why I left full predtoism?

[00:14:30]Well, I agree with you that there were, you know, what I considered errors in there and and uh just statements that weren't uh logical in terms of what he was saying that he didn't uh really prove anything in terms of or refute, I should say. Yeah.

[00:14:47]>> The u the view of covenant esquetology.

[00:14:50]So, it's just not there.

[00:14:52]>> Well, not only that, many many many people have commented on this. When you read Sam's book, Essays on the Resurrection on 1 Corinthians 15, you read his argumentation there, you read his exeetical exercises, you read his logical argumentation, and you compare that with why I led full predtoism. And look, I can't tell you the number of people that have bought the book on essays on 1 Corinthians 15.

[00:15:24]and they've also bought the book, Why I Left. And they've contacted me and they said, "What in the world happened to Sam Frost? His his thought processes, his argumentation, his lack of logic in why I left is astounding compared to essays on 1 Corinthians 15."

[00:15:46]And yet Sam to this day, he said it on Facebook a couple of weeks ago. I think it was just before my operation. As a matter of fact, he said his argumentation in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 in that book or essays on on uh on the resurrection, he said his his arguments in that book were atrocious. H >> and I thought, >> you know, that's interesting because if I recall well, he said one of the reasons that he wrote that book was to sort of uh clarify or make simple some of the things that were in the cross and the paraca.

[00:16:20]>> Yes.

[00:16:21]>> No. From Max. Now, you know, Max was no slouch >> in terms of his research and in terms of his his writings. And um there were times and even Max would say sometimes he had a little problems communicating clearly to the audience. But a person who could really dig in and see what he was saying, you know, you had no problem with that. You know, you could clearly see >> the the reasoning that he had. But Sam wanted to just make it more um you know, I guess simple for you know, people to grasp without the highly I won't say it was highly technical. It was just Max's style. And uh so he's not making from that perspective. He wasn't making a lot of his own arguments per se, original arguments. He was taking Max's arguments and just trying to simplify them enough to where people could grasp them. Now, I'm not saying he didn't have some of his original stuff in there because I I used his book at one time to um sort of teach on the resurrection and um that helped some, but I wasn't it wasn't because I couldn't understand what Max was saying.

[00:17:28]>> No, >> but that's what I understood him to say in, you know, regarding that book that that's what he was doing. He was kind of taking Max's information, trying to bring it down to a level where he thought more people could grasp it.

[00:17:41]Yeah. And what what was interesting to me when he said that his argumentation uh in that book was atrocious, I couldn't help but wonder, okay, wait a minute, in his comments on Ezekiel 37 and the age to come, he was refuting the idea that in the age to come there be no maring, giving in marriage. He was responding to that and did a really good job of it, I might add. Mhm.

[00:18:09]>> And he pointed out that in the Hebrew on Ezekiel 37, it talks about in that age to come, the new covenant age, the age of Messiah, uh, restored Israel that their sons and their sons and their sons, you know, would teach the law. And he pointed out, well, if you got sons having sons having sons.

[00:18:31]>> Yes.

[00:18:32]>> Uh, you know, that you got to have some marrying and giving in marriage going on, >> right?

[00:18:38]>> So, it made me wonder, okay, I wonder what's so atrocious about that argumentation.

[00:18:44]I wonder how I wonder how he would go about proving that that argument is so bad.

[00:18:52]Now, he he never gave a single example when he said, "My arguments in that book were so atrocious."

[00:18:58]>> He he never gave one single argument.

[00:19:01]And so, all he's doing is trying to say, "Oh, well, I renounced all of that. Oh, that's atrocious." Blah, blah, blah. But it I haven't I haven't seen one single statement written and nor have I heard Sam Frost go to his book on essays on resurrection and break it down and say here is where my argument was wrong. Here's the linguistic analysis. Here's the logical, exoggetical, hermeneutical analysis of it, demonstrating that my argument was so ridiculous.

[00:19:47]He just kind of throws it out there.

[00:19:50]And he says that his very first book has been successful in leading quote hundreds upon hundreds of people away from the full predtoist perspective.

[00:20:06]Um well no more comment on that perhaps. So that's >> that's interesting. Let me just comment there. Okay. He's leading hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people away from the full predtoous view. Now I could say you know because on one hand he will say you know there's not many of us. So so that's that's kind of interesting. But I can understand if he's saying that he's preventing people from considering the predtoist view. You know, that may make more sense than saying he's leading hundreds and hundreds of people away because I'd like to know who some of them are. I would >> from that perspective.

[00:20:40]>> Yeah. And and it's also interesting uh I think this is more than a little revealing.

[00:20:48]Joel Richardson talked about predators being deceived >> and Sam talks about predators being deceived. You know, about good sounding arguments, but they're deception.

[00:21:02]and what have you. And so it makes me wonder, William and other Mike Bennett pointed this out a couple of weeks ago on Facebook. Did a fantastic job of of the presentation.

[00:21:17]Okay, Sam, you were raised in a Pentecostal charismatic background.

[00:21:27]Were you deceived when you were a charismatic? Well, he said he was said he was deceived.

[00:21:38]Well, then he became an allmillennialist or a partial predator, excuse me.

[00:21:45]So then he found out he had been deceived when he was a a nominalist, partial predtoist.

[00:21:55]Then he became a full predtoist and he discover dis discovered he had been deceived to become a full predtoist and now he's a historicist idealist something or otherist. I don't know exactly how he would classify himself.

[00:22:17]I really think it's a legitimate question to ask.

[00:22:21]Is it not possible?

[00:22:24]And let's keep in mind, Sam Frost believes that he was being led by the Holy Spirit when he was a charismatic.

[00:22:32]Right.

[00:22:33]>> Right.

[00:22:33]>> Isn't that the doctrine? The Holy Spirit led him to believe that?

[00:22:37]>> Absolutely.

[00:22:38]>> Well, okay. Did the Holy Spirit lead him out of that?

[00:22:42]You would think, wait a minute, he was deceived. Was it the spirit that deceived him into be being a charismatic?

[00:22:51]>> That's problematic.

[00:22:53]So, was it the spirit guiding him? He he believes it was.

[00:22:59]So, is the Holy Spirit guiding him to become a partial predtoist, a nominalist?

[00:23:05]Was the Holy Spirit deceiving him?

[00:23:11]Oh, wait. The Holy Spirit led him to become a predtoist.

[00:23:18]just exactly what what what spirit was guiding Sam Frost?

[00:23:24]And maybe we could have a right to ask what spirit is guiding Sam Frost now.

[00:23:31]>> Absolutely.

[00:23:33]>> I mean, three out of four positions are bad, wrong, guided by what?

[00:23:45]Yeah, that's not a very good batting average.

[00:23:49]Okay.

[00:23:50]>> And it's supposed to be the spirit of truth. AB: >> Absolutely. Supposed to be the spirit of truth. Um, and of course, he tells you how comfortable he feels now, what joy he feels now, what confidence he feels now, uh, etc., etc. Well, he said the same things about the predtoous view that it brought total confidence in the inspiration of scripture. It gave total confidence in Christ and the father and keeping their word as they promised. But evidently now he believes he was deceived into believing that the father kept his word.

[00:24:32]>> Yeah. Another uh good book he wrote while he was a predator was the misplaced hope book.

[00:24:36]>> Oh my goodness. Outstanding book in many ways. And you know >> I haven't heard him condemn that book.

[00:24:44]William.

[00:24:46]>> Uh he did some really good solid historical research.

[00:24:50]>> Yes.

[00:24:50]>> In that book. And folks, if you can find it on the internet, good luck to you. Uh secondly, if you can find it, be prepared for sticker shock because it's expensive. So anyway, okay.

[00:25:03]Uh will you he said Sam Frost said uh because Joel asked him, you know, what were some of the key things that caused him to begin the question or that were the um uh u uh powerful arguments that really really turned his head around and caused him to rethink. And he said, John 6:39, "Of all that the Father has given me, I will lose I I have lost nothing and I will raise him up on the last day."

[00:25:42]And he said, "Listen, I have never met a Predtoist that's got an answer for that." And I thought, why weren't you paying attention?

[00:25:51]That's kind of my response to that.

[00:25:54]>> And he said, "Last day is very well self-defining. It's last day and by that that he means last day of human history.

[00:26:07]Now wait and then he went ahead to say the only answer that I ever got from any full predtoist was it's the last day of our life.

[00:26:18]And I thought I've never heard a full predtoist say that's the last day of John 6. Have you?

[00:26:27]>> Neither have I. Nope.

[00:26:30]>> So it made me wonder what full predator was Sam talk Frost talking to and he mentioned no one but what full predators was Sam Frost talking to and he said oh the last day is the last day of our life. So Sam goes ahead to say that won't work because the last day a person's life is not dying and going to heaven. that is not resurrection.

[00:27:00]Uh and he goes ahead to argue resurrection can only be a physical body coming out of the ground, which is obviously false. But nonetheless, what is your give us a synopsis response to Sam's idea that the last day has to be the last day of human history.

[00:27:23]Well, first of all, according to the scripture, there is no such thing as the last day of human history because the Bible says it's a world without end. So, we don't have a last day for uh the end of human history. And the last days actually apply to that old covenant age.

[00:27:51]And it was at the end of that old covenant age where uh resurrection esquetology was placed. And so for that reason uh the last day would be in uh relationship to that old covenant. Uh because you you can't the Bible says it's world without end and uh the kingdom has no end. All of those passages over and over again state that. So, it's like, you know, trying to, excuse the expression, pin the tail on the end of a donkey that has no rear end.

[00:28:25]He doesn't have a place to pin it.

[00:28:28]>> Amen to that. And let's let's drive this home.

[00:28:32]In Daniel 12 verse 3 and 4, it talks about the time of the end.

[00:28:39]>> End.

[00:28:40]>> And it uses a Greek word in the Septuagent Peros. and he uses it as a synonym for soontoa the time and the end the end of the age.

[00:28:52]Well, then we come down and of course in this context you have the resurrection.

[00:28:56]Now Sam Frost says the resurrection is at the end of human history which as you just pointed out that concept certainly not the term but the concept is not found anywhere in the scripture but we have the end of the age and we have the time of the end uh we have the sutullia and we have the peros and then in Daniel 12 verse 6 and 7 angel asked another tell us when shall these things be when shall these wonders be fulfilled. Now, these wonders in involved the great tribulation, the time of the end, the righteous shining forth in the kingdom, and the resurrection, and the other angel, this is right hand and left hand. I can't lift my right hand to heaven. Uh, you said today or a good friend of mine said on on Facebook today, I don't know how in the world Preston's talking without being able to move both arms.

[00:29:57]Well, he's right. Uh, but nonetheless, we we have this end of the age concept.

[00:30:04]And one angel ask another when it would be fulfilled. And the angel lifts one hand lifts the other hand, swears by him who lives forever and ever. It shall be a time, times, and a half time. And when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all not some, not most, not not a few of it, but all of these things shall be fulfilled. Now, for those of you who might watch the interview with Sam Frost and Joel Richardson, pay particular attention how Sam Frost assiduously, carefully avoids any reference to any time statement except something like, "Oh, the last day. It's got to be the last day of time.

[00:30:53]>> Mhm.

[00:30:54]>> Which is nothing but an assumption, a presuppositional assumption without proof. He offered no proof.

[00:31:01]>> So here we have when the power of the holy people's been completely shattered, >> the resurrection, the time of the end.

[00:31:09]Then notice in Daniel chapter 12, 12 and 13, we have the 1290 days and we have the 1335 days. And we have we have this countdown of days 1290, 13:30 or 13:35 etc. And in the Greek of Daniel 12 verse 13, it is the suna tone.

[00:31:45]It is the last of the days.

[00:31:51]If you want a passage that talks about the last day, folks, here it is. It's the end of the age. Sam Frost says that's the end of human history. No, it's the time when the power of the holy people be completely shattered.

[00:32:06]It's the time of the resurrection. Sam Fro says at the end of human history.

[00:32:10]No, it would be when the power of the holy people's completely shattered. And it would be in at the 1335th day, which is the last day of that prophetic countdown. But the last day of that prophetic countdown is the time of the shattering of the power of the holy people. If Sam Frost legitimately wanted to know what the last day is, he'd go to Daniel 12.

[00:32:42]And the last day is a time when the power of the holy people would be completely shattered fulfilling the time of the end fulfilling the end of the age.

[00:32:54]And it's not talking about a time when the church will be completely shattered or the gospel will be completely shattered. uh way in one on one occasion I was teaching on Daniel chapter 12 and the resurrection and I was presenting a lot of these things and uh one of the ladies from the congregation bless your heart uh I had been with her she had been my partner on door knockocking campaigns wonderful wonderful lady but she was extremely agitated about what she was hearing and she'd said That just can't be true.

[00:33:35]>> It can't be true, Dawn. And she was gone. I love you, but And I said, well, and I called her name. I won't call it now. She's passed away now. Wonderful lady.

[00:33:46]And I said, well, Daniel was told it would be when the power of the holy people is completely shattered. I said, when is that? She said, that's the end of time.

[00:33:58]I said, well, okay. Do you believe that the church will be completely destroyed at the end of time? Well, no. I said, "Well, what did Paul say the power of God is?" And she sat there a minute and she said, "Well, it's the gospel." I said, "Okay, Romans 1:16."

[00:34:19]I said, "Well, let me ask you a question.

[00:34:22]Will the gospel, God's power to salvation, will that be completely shattered at the end of time?" She said, 'N no. I said, 'Well, since the church will never be destroyed and the gospel will never be destroyed, then how can it be talking about the end of time?

[00:34:42]Oh boy, she turned turned every shade of red and purple and green, folded her arms, didn't say another word.

[00:34:56]Matter of fact, after that, she never said another word to me.

[00:35:00]Yeah, she was done with me. But the point of fact is if Sam wanted to be honest about the countdown to the last day, he would go to Daniel 12 and instead of saying, "Well, Daniel 12:1, the time of the great tribulation, that was the time of anti-expanies. Daniel 12:2, that's the end of the end of human history. Daniel 12:3, the end of the age. That's the end of the Christian age.

[00:35:32]Oh, Daniel 12:7, when the power of the holy people have been completely shattered. Oh, that's back to the time of anti-expanies.

[00:35:40]Now, folks, you you talk about playing games with ex Jesus. You talk about imposing isogetically a presuppositional is uh doctrine on a text and ignoring the grammatical flow of the text. That's precisely what Sam Frost has to do in order to escape the power of Daniel chapter 12. Okay, William, one of the points that Sam made and he really tried to really tried to drive this home.

[00:36:22]He said, 'Well, you have to understand that there are all these differences fly all these really sharp, really distinct differences and controversies within full predator. There is not a homogeneous singular view.

[00:36:43]And I suppose that's supposed to have some kind of uh probative convincing value. But William, uh, Sam is a Presbyterian.

[00:36:54]Are there any sharp, distinctive, really intense divisions within the Presbyterian Fellowship?

[00:37:02]>> Yeah. And Predtoism is one of them.

[00:37:06]>> You got that right.

[00:37:08]You know, >> D folks, the Presbyterian Church has split several times over the last 20 years, maybe 30. And so here is Sam Frost rather naively, I would say, just trying to give a false impression to his audience. Oh, look, Predtoism is divided.

[00:37:36]Look at all these really sharp divisions and controversies. You got INB view, individual body view of resurrection versus the corporate body view of resurrection.

[00:37:48]And by the way, this is an aside do a uh do a chat GPT inquiry on Micah chapter 7 and the doctrine of the resurrection found there.

[00:38:06]You'll find that over and over and over the scholars agree Micah chapter 7 is talking about a corporate resurrection of Israel in the restored kingdom under the Messiah in the age to come.

[00:38:27]Um I mean one scholar after another takes that position. So when people say, "Well, the the corporate body view of resurrection is is brand new. Nobody ever thought of it before m before Max King."

[00:38:46]Well, they don't know what they're talking about.

[00:38:49]Now, do these scholars put it in AD70?

[00:38:51]I'm not saying that. I'm simply saying that they understand that Micah and this is just one incident uh one example after me of many many that can be cited.

[00:39:03]Scholars recognize that in the Old Testament the escatological resurrection which they admittedly put at the end of the Christian age. I understand that.

[00:39:16]But they nonetheless see the original content, the original import of these Old Testament resurrection text was about corporate resurrection.

[00:39:31]John Levenson in his book resurrection in Israel says that the original understanding of resurrection in for instance in Ezekiel 37 was the idea of a corporate resurrection.

[00:39:47]Now does he say it was AD70? No, I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that the idea of corporate resurrection is widely widely recognized in the scholarly literature.

[00:40:03]So let's see, William, I had something.

[00:40:07]Yeah, go ahead. While you're thinking of it, um, back some years ago when I went over to the Memphis School of Preaching, uh, they were having lectureship done by, uh, Terry Varnner.

[00:40:23]And you remember one of the, um, arguments that he made was similar to what Sam, you know, is saying, there are many divisions and or differences of views among predtoism.

[00:40:38]and they are all grouped in futurism.

[00:40:44]So you think about how many different views you've already laid out a few uh there are in futurism >> and know not just between the main aspects of it or the main divisions like dispensationalism, postmillennialism, historical premillennialism, all of those they're there but within them they're divisions. You remember I wrote an article in living presence Lord to whom shall we go? Yeah, I remember that >> pointing out and this was just in the our millennial camp or the futurist because you know if you're going to claim that that's orthodoxy and that's following the creed then you'd have to accept every futurist esqueological view that's out there whether it's Adventist Jehovah witness uh postmillennialist whatever you name it and then all of the different views within that in order to be consistent. It's an argument that is just totally illogical. It it does it proves nothing other than it proves that they're just as condemned by it and the logic of it as anybody else they want to look at.

[00:41:58]>> Now, and let's follow up on that. Joel kept referring to orthodoxy, orthodoxy, orthodoxy. And he kept referring to the creeds and how the apostles doctrine gave us this, this, this, this, etc. And of course, Sam is going along with everything because Sam is back in into his uh creedalism and orthodoxy camp.

[00:42:18]And he's, you know, saying uh that predtoists cannot be considered orthodox.

[00:42:31]Why? Well, because they disagree with all millennialist, postmillennialist, premillennialist, dispensationalist.

[00:42:41]Well, wait a minute.

[00:42:44]You know, Sam posted just the other day on Facebook. He said, "I can understand." He said, "I'm okay with the nillennialist becoming a dispensationalist.

[00:42:55]I can understand a millennialist becoming a postmillennialist or postmillennialist becoming even a dispensationalist. You know, you know, going back and forth and back and forth.

[00:43:04]And I'm going, okay, so Sam, you're okay with a man who is a nominalist, which he has fairly up until fairly recently said he was a nomillennialist.

[00:43:17]But again, I'm not sure what Sam is anymore. Um he he's he's just an idealist.

[00:43:28]Uh he's a historicist.

[00:43:30]Uh his view on revelation is just so far out there that you can't make head or tail of it. But he says that it's okay to go from a millennialist to all the way over here the dispensationalist. So in Sam's book and Joel Richardson is taking the same position.

[00:43:52]Richardson does not claim to be a dispensationalist. He claims to be a historic premillennialist.

[00:43:58]Well, wait a minute.

[00:44:02]>> That means that Sam believes it's okay to go from being a nominalist to being a person who believes that Jesus Christ failed. The father failed because the father sent the son supposedly at what? Just the right time to establish the kingdom.

[00:44:26]Jesus came at just the right time according to scripture.

[00:44:35]But the Jews rejected Jesus.

[00:44:39]Therefore, as Thomas Ice says in the book End Time Controversy, page 115, because of the Jewish rejection of the kingdom offered by Jesus, that rejection made it quote impossible and quote for God to fulfill the promise.

[00:44:58]>> William, in my books, that's a gospel of failure.

[00:45:04]>> Yes.

[00:45:04]>> And I don't want to use the word gospel because gospel means good news. And in my in my estimation, there is nothing good news about saying Jesus came to do what the father gave him to do. Jesus offered the kingdom, but due to the Jewish unbelief, he failed.

[00:45:25]So how can Sam call dispensationalism orthodoxy?

[00:45:33]How can Joel Richardson call dispensationalists orthodox?

[00:45:40]Oh, well, they still believe in the coming of the Lord, but they believe in the failure of the Lord.

[00:45:47]>> To me, that was one of the that that's one of the more ironic things. And here's something else, William. Um, how can a dispensationalist call a millennialist or a postmillennialist orthodox? How can they call a dispensationalist Orthodox?

[00:46:06]Orthodox means towing the line. Right.

[00:46:09]>> Right.

[00:46:10]>> It means walking in along.

[00:46:14]Unorthodox means walking outside the the lines.

[00:46:20]Doesn't the all millennialists and postmillennialists believe that the dispensationalist is walking way outside the lines?

[00:46:27]>> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And and they believe that strongly.

[00:46:31]>> Very strongly.

[00:46:35]So why aren't they condemning dispensationalism?

[00:46:38]Why is it Joel Richardson having programs condemning th this view of esquetology?

[00:46:49]Then he says, "Well, you know, we can all disagree on esquetology about this and that and the other and we're still okay because we're all orthodox." No, you're not. You're not even close to orthodox walking along together in the same line of thought.

[00:47:04]>> Dispensationalists are the apostles of denial and the apostles of failure.

[00:47:12]And Joel Richardson and Sam Frost comes along and says, "I'm good with that.

[00:47:18]I'm okay with that because that's still orthodox.

[00:47:22]>> Well, let me ask you a let me ask you a question. Okay.

[00:47:26]>> If Christ failed based on the time, if if he didn't fulfill what was to be fulfilled at the time, then what is the right time and how can he fulfill it?

[00:47:42]>> I will give you what this >> is that a reasonable question. It's a very reasonable logical question and it's one with which dispensationalists have struggled. I'll tell you that at least dispensationalist that I have dealt with. But here's how they've come up with an answer. They say, "Well, yes, it was supposed to be the right time."

[00:48:06]Now, they they struggle with the New Testament text, Romans chapter 5, 6, and following. At just the right time, in due time, Christ died for us.

[00:48:16]>> Galatians 4:4, in the fullness of time, at just the right time, God sent forth his uh son, born of a woman, made under the law, to redeem those who were under the law.

[00:48:28]Well, Christ came to redeem those who were under the law. That was the Jews.

[00:48:33]And to redeem them, that's the kingdom.

[00:48:36]So, Christ came to redeem the Jews.

[00:48:39]That's the kingdom.

[00:48:41]But due to Jewish unbelief, he couldn't do it. Yet, it says it was just the right time.

[00:48:46]>> Mhm.

[00:48:47]>> So, they say, well, the first coming of Christ was a conditional coming, a conditional offering.

[00:49:02]It's not what it says, but that's what they say. Okay? But then they turn around and say when we ask, okay, how do we know that the Jews will accept Christ the second time around?

[00:49:17]I mean, and I've made the article made the point in articles and speeches and what have you. If Jewish unbelief prevented the establishment of the kingdom the first time, even though God said it was the right time, then wouldn't Jewish unbelief prevent the establishment of the kingdom at the second coming? That's that's essentially what you're asking.

[00:49:41]>> Yes.

[00:49:41]>> Right. So, they say, "Well, here's the difference.

[00:49:46]When the Antichrist comes and he makes a covenant with Israel, they get to rebuild the temple. He breaks the covenant and he and embarks upon the great tribulation and the Jews in their ultimate point of desperation. They're about to be wiped out.

[00:50:06]Jesus appears in the heavens and they accept him because now they see him writing, pardon me, riding on the clouds of heaven.

[00:50:19]That's that's the reason they'll accept him. the second time because he appears miraculously when they're crying out for relief from the great tribulation.

[00:50:31]That's their explanation. It's not biblical.

[00:50:34]You know, it won't work.

[00:50:36]>> It's not a good one either.

[00:50:37]>> It's not even a good one. But realizing the danger that they have placed themselves in by acknowledging, yeah, he came at just the right time. Yeah. The 70 weeks of Daniel were being counted down to the first century. That was just the right time.

[00:50:54]I asked Thomas in one of my formal debates with him.

[00:51:00]I said, "Thomas, why do you teach a doctrine of failure?"

[00:51:05]And he we were seated on the dis and he said, "I don't teach a doctrine of failure." I said, "Thomas, yes, you do.

[00:51:12]Because you say that the Danielic 70 weeks counted down to the first century." And he said, "Yeah, it did." I said, ' But you say that Jewish unbelief prevented God's plan from being fulfilled. That means man thwarted God's plan. That means that if God's plan was thwarted, God's plan failed.

[00:51:38]>> Yeah.

[00:51:38]>> And all he could say was, "That's not the way I look at it." And I I I responded. We were up there answering questions and I didn't have very much time.

[00:51:49]But in in ensuing presentations, I've asked this for people to consider. I said, "Okay, folks, let's just look at a really really really mundane example."

[00:52:00]My wife says, "Don, go down to Larry's Country Store.

[00:52:03]There's a convenience store just half a mile from my house. run down to the store, get us a corn of milk, dozen eggs, get us some chocolate to munch on, loaf of bread, you know. She gave us five items.

[00:52:18]>> Mhm.

[00:52:19]>> And I go down there and I come back with a can of soup, a can of peaches, you know, a bag of dog food, but I don't come back with eggs and bread, or I don't come back with any of the five items that she gave me.

[00:52:37]And she goes, "What are you doing?" I said, "Well, I went to the store and came back. I gave you five items to get, but you didn't get the items that I said."

[00:52:48]And I've asked people, "Would you believe that I failed to do what my a my wife asked me to do?" Well, of course you did.

[00:52:57]You went to be sure and you came back to be sure, but you didn't do what your wife told you to do. I'm real real sure that my wife would say I failed to do what she wanted me to do. And people understand that, >> right?

[00:53:12]>> So what why is it that people cannot see that to say Christ came at just the right time? The father sent him at just the right time. He offered the kingdom to the Jews at just the right time of Daniel chapter nine.

[00:53:33]But their unbelief completely thwarted God's plan. So much so that God had to come up with another plan.

[00:53:45]Plan B.

[00:53:47]>> And that in light of Romans 3.

[00:53:50]>> That in light of Romans chapter 3. Amen.

[00:53:55]Uh it it literally blows my mind how people and I know they're wonderful God-loving, God-fearing people in the dispensational movement. I'm not suggesting dishonesty.

[00:54:08]Now, I I suspect that a lot of the leaders are not quite as honest as they ought to be, but to the man in the pew, so to speak, they just been deceived.

[00:54:21]They they they've got this mind block whether it's about the land of Israel, whether it's Israel as a people of God continuing to be the people of God.

[00:54:31]They've been sold a bill of goods and I had a guy here at the house just recently, William, a couple of months ago now, buying some car parts. We got to talking and the issue turned to Israel.

[00:54:45]>> Oh, he would just say talk about Israel being the chosen people of God. I said, 'Well, I I suppose this may upset you, but I said, I don't believe that the Israel that is over there being called Israel today. I don't believe they're God's chosen people. I thought the dude was going to run screaming from the scene.

[00:55:04]He was like, "Are you kidding me?" I said, "No, sir, I'm not." I said, "Biblic? I I don't think that they're related in any way, shape, form, or fashion with the old covenant Israel of the first century. That was the object of prophecy. Well, I've never heard of anything like that in all my life.

[00:55:23]He didn't leave a happy camper. Form minute. I thought he was going to give the parts back and demand his money back.

[00:55:31]But but nonetheless, back to the idea of orthodoxy here. Here is Sam.

[00:55:39]Here is Joel condemning Predtoist for being unorthodox.

[00:55:46]All the while they don't believe the respective esqueological paradigms with which they're not acquainted or or related.

[00:55:57]They're okay even they are not orthodox because they're not walking in the same path that they are.

[00:56:03]>> Mhm.

[00:56:05]>> And they have really really sharp differences with those other views, don't they, William?

[00:56:13]>> Oh yeah.

[00:56:16]And yet they're condemning us because hey in the predtoist movement we got some sharp distinctions within us. What movement throughout history has not had some differences. What did Paul say in 1 Corinthians chapter 11 when there were some abuses of the Lord's supper?

[00:56:34]There were abuses of the spiritual gifts. There were abuses concerning who is the best preacher. Mhm.

[00:56:43]>> Paul said, "It is necessary."

[00:56:47]Some translations write it like this. It is necessary that there be heresies among you so that the truth might be manifested.

[00:56:58]Now, did Paul mean that it was necessary for there to be damnable doctrine among them? No. But he was saying there are differences and those differences help winnow out the truth. Help reveal the truth.

[00:57:15]>> Right?

[00:57:18]>> But here is Joel and here is Sam saying, "Well, what authority the do the predtoist have?" And this is where this is where it it's it's really really telling in my personal estimation. And we've only got a couple of minutes left here, William.

[00:57:39]They kept appealing to the creeds. And they kept saying, I believe it was Joel who said, "And what authority do they have today?

[00:57:48]What authority do the predtoists have?"

[00:57:51]Well, every predtoist that I know of is glad to answer that. What is it?

[00:57:56]>> It's scripture.

[00:57:58]>> Hello.

[00:58:00]>> The word of God, the law and the prophets.

[00:58:04]>> And yet here they were appealing to the apostles creed, to the Nyian creed.

[00:58:09]>> Mhm.

[00:58:10]>> And to ensuing creeds. Well, William, uh, you know, Sam made a big point of this. He said look when I joined the predators movement almost everybody was was from uh the church of Christ background and he said they are decidedly anti-reedle. So he said they didn't have that struggle but he said I'm Presbyterian and he said so that's a lot of baggage for me to get rid of. I would suggest Sam's never gotten rid of that baggage from where he's at today.

[00:58:43]>> Yeah.

[00:58:45]So, William, which one of the which one of the u which one of the creeds is totally authoritative?

[00:58:55]>> Not a single one of them in our >> Ah, isn't it interesting that those who say, "Oh, we got to follow the creeds and Sam is one of them. Oh, we got to go to the nanian creed or we got to go to the apostles creed or we got, you know, etc., etc." Well, why those? Why not later? Why not others?

[00:59:17]>> Mhm.

[00:59:18]>> And I've brought up the Council of Trent before. They said, "Oh, no, no, no. You can't take Council Trent." That's a Catholic council. Oh, so now you're not appealing to creeds. You're selecting and choosing the creeds that you want to pick and choose.

[00:59:36]And by the way, they don't even accept all of the Nyian creed at all.

[00:59:43]But uh that's about all the time we have about uh about all the time I have time for is John. We do have any closing thoughts? Well, I you know, I just think it's really sad that they go to a person and try to have these discussions with them because, you know, it's it's like, this was the first thought I had when you talked about, you know, you were going to talk about it's like the Herodians, the Pharisees, and the Sadducees.

[01:00:14]>> They don't agree with each other. They despise each other as far as doctrine is concerned. But they will come together to fight against Christ. And these guys will come together to fight against us.

[01:00:27]>> The enemy agree. Yeah. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[01:00:31]>> Yes.

[01:00:31]>> That's that old cliche. And that's precisely Sam Frost will go on any forum with anyone as long as it's against predtoism.

[01:00:41]>> Mhm.

[01:00:42]>> That's where Sam Frost is. And um you know I I guess he's found his niche and many other people have called my attention to this. Uh I mentioned it earlier in the chapter. Uh Jesus spoke of the Pharisees and he says they love to have the praise and the honor of men more than the praise of God. And verily I say unto you they have their reward.

[01:01:12]Perhaps pardon me. Perhaps that's enough for this evening. William, great to see you again. Thanks for being on the program. Thanks to everyone who will watch this program. Hope you'll give it some careful thought. Hope you can see how Sam Frost is not presenting an exeetical basis for abandoning the truth of covenant esquetology. And we didn't touch on a lot of what Sam said. Sam said we are close to cultish.

[01:01:40]Uh no, we're not. Not any more than the Presbyterian or the Baptist church is.

[01:01:46]I'll say that. But anyway, it only predtoism. You and I, William, have said this many, many times. Is it not ironic that the only view of esquetology that is called heretical is the view that says God kept his word?

[01:02:05]>> Very good point.

[01:02:06]>> All right. Good night, folks. God bless.

[01:02:12]All right. Thanks, William. Good night.

[01:02:13]>> Okay. All right.