Paul Hedderman. Non Duality Apr. 28, 2026

Ajouté : 2026-04-29

[00:00:00]music.

[00:00:04]Um, yes, I wanted to talk about uh something illustration of something. We had a recovery talk today earlier and some of the people from the United Kingdom were asking us about uh a statement uh called self can't get out of self.

[00:00:28]Yeah.

[00:00:30]in San Francisco community it was quite out out there you know it was sort of uh you'd hear it quite a lot but they've never heard it they said at any AA meetings there yeah so the self can't get out of self is an incredible uh it's like a it's like a Russian doll of revelation yeah you Open up one, you see another and you see another and see another. And so it can it's not like being used. It's being seen. You become aware.

[00:01:11]There's no need to use awareness in a way. There's an awareness and then see what happens. Yeah. So self can't get out of self is a statement that came about through a lot of people in recovery doing just that. So they entered recovery innocently and they wanted to get out of something and get into another life and everything and they must have come to a collective conclusion that this idea of self cannot get out of itself. Yeah. Now we want to add on to it a little bit and the that system of self that can't get out of self cannot see that it cannot see that it can't get out of self. It just so it will keep on keeping on and it doesn't have the ability to grow out of that. So all it does is change vehicles, but it tries to get out of self. And you could look at your own life and you could see a similarity between a spiritual quest and copying some cocaine. Yeah, there was a certain same uh underlying thing there. You wanted to get out of something really.

[00:02:29]You wanted somehow you wanted relief from something very close to wherever you are. So you call it me or self.

[00:02:38]Yeah. So uh that self that's wanting to get out of self can't get the statement self can't get out of self. It's very important. Yeah. So it's very cool when the system is confronted with the system's failure and it's a very good whack. You can just sit there for a second or two, look at the whole thing and go, uh, self can't get out of self and that can't get it. Yeah. Simple. And so then how is self getting out of self?

[00:03:16]You think it's Paul trying to get out of self or John or John or Carrie or Michael and Ben. And each one has a valid story about the need to get out of self or the ways they've tried to get out of self and all the rationalization and the excusing and the blaming of the failure of trying to get out of self.

[00:03:41]Yeah. And so here's the beauty of it is you're not that self that's trying to get out of self.

[00:03:50]Yeah.

[00:03:51]and you're not the self you're trying to get out of also. I think someone added on to it today was pretty good. So Paul is a is uh a name put on the act of selfing. Yeah. Or the idea of self.

[00:04:08]Yeah. So and the name Paul hides that.

[00:04:12]It's sort of like changing the emblem of a car, but it's still a Buick. Yeah.

[00:04:16]There's a Buick and then you put a Rolls-Royce emblem on it on the hood and then you think it's somehow related or a second cousin to Royals Rolls-Royce, but it's just a Buick with a Rolls-Royce emblem. So, it's just selfieing with an a name. Yeah. And the form being the body and the names being Michael. And in that idea of Michael being the body, it makes a lot of sense to get out of something. Yeah. That's why you'll want you'll know the movie's going to suck, but you still go to see it because you got a lot of time on your hands and you don't know what to do. Yeah. And you don't want to be at the mercy of that.

[00:05:01]So, you go to a lousy movie, stuff like that. So, basically, self can't get out of self. that system can't get it, which is very good news.

[00:05:13]And you're not self. You're neither the self that you're trying to get out of and you're not the the self that's trying to get out of it. Yeah. You're neither. Yeah. Beautiful. That's can it be it's really a certain three-step dance of recovery that mimics really non-duality.

[00:05:33]Yeah. So they they realize because so many reasons self can't get out of self because there isn't a self. Yeah. So there would have to be a real self to get out of a real self. Yeah. And both of them are not real. So the biggest in of self here is wanting to get out of it or the drives to get out of it. Yeah.

[00:05:57]Now most people wouldn't see that. They would see there's a clear in and there's all these drives I have to get out. But in and out are is a dual dualistic currency. Yeah. It's like there's two sides of the same coin coin. Yeah. Now the inside gets verified by the trying to get out. Yeah. So the head makes it more believable that you were in something because of all the efforts you have gone through to get out of it because you would look like a complete idiot if you were trying to get out of something that you were not in. Yeah.

[00:06:40]Obviously. So pride comes in and stuff.

[00:06:43]I mean who wants to meet admit complete defeat like they say in the 12 and 12 concerning the actor of alcoholism. So the biggest in is wanting to get out and this goes to the point where uh first there's just something going on let's say then self gets objectified and then the self splits like an amoeba into two amiebas and now you have the subjective self.

[00:07:22]That's critiquing the object of self.

[00:07:25]Yeah. Because when you were a kid, you weren't going over am I playing well or you know what I mean? How do I look? You know, did they you were just there. You were just here actually. And then there was a split of the one who was here and then a something that was observing the one who was here which is we've been accompanied with that ever since. Yeah.

[00:07:52]There was a time where you would do something without thought, but most times any doing that happens now is accompanied with thought. Yeah. Either at the moment or in a a reflection moment after.

[00:08:07]Yeah. So basically that whole thing can't get out of itself and it's it's important uh yet that whole thing appearing as one pole which is us thinks it can get out of itself. Yeah. And so this was our request and of course it we were defeated and we blamed a lot of things for it but basically you can't get out of what you're not in. And this is a sort of a interesting way to arrive at that. Yeah. You see what's constantly trying to get out isn't you. And you realize you aren't in what it thinks you're in. Yeah.

[00:08:58]And therefore the movement to get out either comes to a screeching halt or it diminishes quickly. Yeah. It you it you're not stoking it anymore and it dies. Sort of dies out or basically the difference between listening and hearing. So hearing is you you that's the that's what we are before the thinking is we're hearing. Yeah. We're hearing the narration being played and most of us start as that which is being narrated. Yeah. So the head starts after Yeah. something and that mean and then you're listening to that where we're actually before it and we're hearing it.

[00:09:46]Yeah. And you've had and I've had the the different experiences in in this one life when we were driven by alcoholism, we were listening to something constantly. Yeah. Now being freed from alcoholism, we we can hear it. We're hearing it, but hearing it doesn't provoke any interest or listening to it.

[00:10:11]Yes. But when you're listening to it, uh, you're going to try to get out of a lot of [ __ ] that you're not in.

[00:10:21]Yeah. Yeah. And every movement of course gets claimed. And the more importance the movement is given, the bigger projection of you gets thrown onto the wall. Yes. Like me doing dishes did not cast a giant projection as spiritual seeking did. Spiritual seeking projected a whole I a whole other you called a spiritual person. Yeah. Where washing dishes doesn't have that ability. It doesn't mean anything in most cases. And I love doing what doesn't mean anything now, like every day, all day, because I think the head probably would still make that whatever it grabs into a a tool or a gun, but it can't make anything out of this mundane existence that I'm living a day at a time. So, it doesn't have anything to work with.

[00:11:21]Yeah. It can't do anything. It's great.

[00:11:25]Then you start noticing why the people that would pro project this idea of a simpler life may be more helpful and you realize it. Yeah. Uh so when you know if you believe you're saving the world, there's a casting of a large projection on the on the wall. And we're actually living from the shadow looking at at the seeming body instead of looking, you know, from here at the shadow. So we're really uh so I noticed that when I was doing spiritual practices, they meant a whole lot more than doing the dishes.

[00:12:08]Yeah. And the head also noticed that obviously because it was the head that was noticing it and it made uh it swed up a whole other person. Yeah. Quickly because I came out of addiction and it went into spirituality and I got sewn up into a new identity in a way. Yeah.

[00:12:31]Yeah. And then that's it was weird because the familiarity of seeking drugs and seeking God was quite similar in a lot of ways.

[00:12:44]Yeah. And actually seeking drugs worked better really. I mean at least you found the drugs. Yeah. Seeking God was an iffy proposition.

[00:12:56]Yeah. Basically you just met the thing that was playing God most of the time.

[00:13:01]Yeah. So I thought that was a weird that they didn't hear that in England and stuff.

[00:13:09]Self can't get out of self where it's very big in where I came from in recovery. Yeah. Or did I just make it all up? I have no idea. It could be one or the other. But but it's a beautiful thing to look at because you can see it's it's like an expression of the sheep and the lion. It's like an expression of a lot of that. Yeah. Where when you if it there's not getting it, it's just going by. But that one time when you hear it finally. Yeah. That oh yeah, the sheep was never a sheep. It's always been the lion. Yeah.

[00:13:53]And the revelation of being the lion is going to be claimed by the head and be presented as an experience the sheep had. Yeah. Wow. That's that's a mechanical movement is what's going to trigger that the conscious contact.

[00:14:11]Yeah. Once you have conscious contact the mental state arises and then claims the contact.

[00:14:18]You can't as that which is representing that you that you can't get out of the you because it's the you or self can't get out of self because it's the self.

[00:14:32]Yes.

[00:14:35]So if you see it after that you're going to have to get into the business of skillful means and stuff like that. If you see it before it, you may not need to do anything. Yeah.

[00:14:54]It's just basically where you're seeing it from. And the fact of non-duality is you're always seeing it from awareness.

[00:15:03]The head just doesn't think so. Yeah.

[00:15:06]But you're always seeing everything before there's a seer.

[00:15:11]Yeah. So, the awareness always comes first. And then the idea of you and me being aware comes way after. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:21]So, so the same thing like the moon thing, all those stories are meant to get something across that the program, unbeknownst to us, we are part of the program.

[00:15:42]Yeah. And the program can't get before the program.

[00:15:47]It can only see the program from the program.

[00:15:52]Yeah. Which means it's blind to the program. It can't get out of how you're how how you're presented has been manufactured. That manufactured can't get back to the rawness of what we are. It just can't because it's manufactured. Yes. Like the iron that's made to to become a tool can't go back to the iron. It's already been shaped.

[00:16:18]Yeah. It would have to be smelted again.

[00:16:22]It already has a form and it can only be that form. Well, here we are. The form that we've been molded into is this body idea. Yeah. And when we think about everything else or anything else, we're thinking about it from a body idea.

[00:16:39]Yeah. How can that body idea get out of the body idea?

[00:16:46]Yeah.

[00:16:50]So every idea has a body before it.

[00:16:54]Yeah. In other words, all the ideas that can happen can't happen beyond the frame of the body idea.

[00:17:03]Yeah. So now what happens when you see that? You mustn't be looking from it because you see it. Yeah. Now you're getting hints of what you actually are, which isn't a thing that can be felt and grabbed and tackled or whatever. It's something beyond that. Or let's just say not a thing. That's all. That's basically the closest you can get to it.

[00:17:31]But you get to it by negating the uh what's been taken to be true and seeing that it ain't and then there you leave it. You leave it at that and then it informs you or it doesn't. Hopefully it just brings about a traveling lighter that you're not the cause of but you're at the effect. You are an effect of that traveling lighter. Yeah.

[00:17:57]Yeah. I can plan on doing very little important things today.

[00:18:08]So you don't take yourself so seriously.

[00:18:18]It's almost well we like to say it let's say a brilliant dumbness. Yeah. Because dumbness has a bad bad name. But a brilliant dumbness where uh you know all based on having never left I need do nothing. The seeker is the sort.

[00:18:51]The greatest mystery being ourselves.

[00:18:53]Reality is reality. Wanting to attain reality.

[00:18:58]What's looking is what you're looking for.

[00:19:02]Um, think about it. It seems to disappear.

[00:19:09]All this stuff, what does it imply?

[00:19:11]You're it. Yeah. And then usually when you say you're it and you hear that, the body idea comes up. And hopefully that's where you negate. Yeah. When that which has always been the depository of all the doing and the thinking and the being and the acting and the feeling, you you watch that thing getting uh filled up. There's a not that that's all simple simple recognition. And then I think the farthest you can go to is uh being the seeing of what you're not.

[00:19:50]Being the awareness of what you're not.

[00:19:52]Yeah. And then you put the ball down.

[00:19:55]And if you ever read Robin Maharashi, he talks about putting the ball down.

[00:20:00]There's a point that we can only go so far and then something picks up the ball.

[00:20:06]Yeah. Carries you across the finish line. You don't c you don't cross the finish line. Something carries you across the finish line. Yeah.

[00:20:20]So, anything anyone questions whatever shares?

[00:20:26]Zoe, you have anything to keep the pump flowing?

[00:20:30]>> Well, a brilliant dumbness should be the title of your next book.

[00:20:35]>> Well, it's it's the it's the autobiography.

[00:20:40]Yeah, >> let's see.

[00:20:41]>> Just dumbness and then brilliant dumbness.

[00:20:47]>> Oh my god. I was cracking up listening to um you talk about being a non-duality Zoom bomber at a Tupperware party.

[00:20:57]>> That's right. There is no self. There's no Tupperware, no wear.

[00:21:03]>> Therefore, there's no Tupperware.

[00:21:07]Um, can you can you speak a little bit more about this whole subject object thing? You um >> Yes.

[00:21:14]>> talked about like that like when you see the subject object from what you are then it just completely collapses. But can you give some examples? You gave one of like the guys who are just um newly sober, you know, going and turning, you know, going from being meth addicts to >> um >> bodybuilders. Bodybuilders. Yeah.

[00:21:40]Thanks.

[00:21:41]>> Yeah. Yeah. That's uh but the thing we're talking about is the subtle subject object during the day. Yes. So it's let's just be clear in this discussion the body is an object. Yes.

[00:21:58]You can see it, you can feel it. Yes. So the body is an object. So then there's the mental activity like a thought stream that's going on.

[00:22:11]And sometimes the feeling is uh you're that which is thought about. So that would be an object. Yes.

[00:22:21]And then sometimes you feel like you're the thinker of the thoughts. That would be the subject.

[00:22:28]So and they switch all day.

[00:22:33]So it goes to object, subject, subject, object, object, subject. So it's it's I think another word for it is dualism when it's so close to where we are. So the activity of subject object. So obviously we're not in a reality of duality. Duality is projected from dualism. Yeah. So we're in a subject object situation seemingly.

[00:23:02]Yeah. And therefore that's projected into everything we see, feel, taste, touch, smell. Yes. So then we believe, oh this world is dualistic, but it really is. But we're not seeing that we're dualistic.

[00:23:17]And that's why it's weird. The duality itself can be used by the head to hide the dualism. Yeah. Yeah. So people realize, oh, this world is dualistic, but they're not realizing they're they're comprised uh dualistically.

[00:23:38]Yeah. So what's the point? So uh if you didn't if if you were the projector and you forgot that and you took what was projected as real that would be our situation so to speak. Yeah. So the mental state projects the subject objectness outward and we run into it all the time in a way to be blind to the inner situation of duality. So the duality is not just meant to be applied to the outside movements but to applied to what's going on. So you can see it. So let's say uh simple statement of Hang Poe whatever can be perceived cannot be that which is perceiving.

[00:24:35]Okay. So that which is perceiving is an object.

[00:24:41]Yeah. Eyes, stuff like that. You think, but it's not. Yeah. So, the head believes the body is what's perceiving, but it isn't. Yeah. The eyes, if you're dead, aren't seeing anything.

[00:24:56]They can take those eyes. I think they have a certain time frame where they can place it in a live body and those eyes will fat facilitate seeing. Yes.

[00:25:07]But they're not facilitating seeing in the dead body. So obviously it's not the eye that's perceiving. Yes, something is animating everything and that something let's call it existence. So that cannot be perceived. So he makes a very clear statement. Whatever can be perceived that obviously includes us cannot be that which is perceiving.

[00:25:35]So now go into the head and listen to the head for two or three minutes. And the head's whole story is based on the opposite.

[00:25:46]The head believes you're that the body is what's perceiving. It believes the body is is who is conscious or what is you could only have a who with a body.

[00:25:59]Yeah. Because a body separates you from other watts. So all these watts which is one huge watt take on a role of being a special you. Yeah. And then it's even it's wilder. They get coronated to become a me seemingly which really that's like the penthouse in the ass of self is the me. You're way up there. Way up there. So you look at okay I'm the thinker of the thoughts that would make you the subject. Yeah. But I'm also that which is thought about all day. So therefore I'm the object. So I'm the thinker of the thoughts that are about the body all day. So what is it? Am I the body that's being thought about or I'm the thinker?

[00:26:55]You're seemingly both but not at the same time. Yeah. So one time when nothing's going on, body is just doing whatever and then light comes on, it gets critiqued or what are you doing or what blah blah the subject comes in really ruins the the object party a lot ruins it and then you're just you're wishing just to get into the zone which is let's say playing basketball and your body's doing all the movements and there's no observer accompanying it and it's great. You're in the zone. Yes, I can I can hit every [ __ ] fast ball. [ __ ] like that. Yes.

[00:27:37]So, yeah, the object left with other objects does pretty well when the subject which is just uh is just an attribute of the object.

[00:27:53]Yeah. unbeknownst to the subject. And I don't believe the subject's ever going to get that. Yeah. But it is of the body.

[00:28:03]Oh, really? Yes. It's of the body. So when existence leaves, that subject doesn't go with it.

[00:28:15]The subject is left behind with the carcass.

[00:28:20]Yeah.

[00:28:22]Yeah.

[00:28:23]It had this idea that it was a part of therefore had the ability to critique everything about the object. It's it's not. Yeah. When the when the lights turn out, it dies also. It doesn't. Yeah. It doesn't have its own generator.

[00:28:44]Yeah. That's a rude awakening. But there'll be no one to remember it or notice it.

[00:28:50]Yeah. So subject object you can see it in yourself and if you listen to just look at the title of non-duality not to can be applied right right here and now. Yeah it can be applied you'll if you if there's if there's an applying of it is not you doing it. It's the you that's being uh impressed upon.

[00:29:18]It's not going to go on for long because something is going to register and ring true. Yeah. And then you're going to just go off and the action figure will have its little square and in it while it's in the little square, it thinks it's in a big square. Yeah. And it thinks it's not actually muted, but the volume's down. You never hear what it's saying, but it thinks everyone is talking to it and it's but it's it's it just goes on doing what it was doing and there's been a recognition that wow it is quite robotic or let's say mechanical and now you're not that uh doesn't mean the hand doesn't go back in the glove. It's going to be in a its destiny is to be in a glove for 70 years. Yeah.

[00:30:16]Does 70 years make it a glove? No. Does seven minutes make it a glove? No. Does 80 years make it a glove? No.

[00:30:27]Does a month make it a glove? No.

[00:30:30]Being in the glove does not make it a glove.

[00:30:34]Yeah.

[00:30:36]In our situation, being in the glove There seemed to only be a glove.

[00:30:44]Yeah.

[00:30:45]And without other possibilities, we've lived as we're as if we're a glove to the best of whatever the glove's ability. And then you hear a message or something or you get curious or something gets suspicious and usually life will lead you to a recognition and then you realize, wow, I can come out of the glove. I don't have to go through a giant, you know, uh, separating operation because I'm not the glove.

[00:31:16]Never was the glove. Never will be the glove. I just found it seems like something parked in there. Yeah. And then uh the ideas of roads and parking spaces and garages were completely uh erased. So you never knew you could come out. So, you just been waiting there. You heard the message. Hey, you're not a glove. It hits you like that. Okay. And then you get maybe four or five hits. And now, of course, the dream is, oh, I'll never be in the glove again. But you find yourself in the glove.

[00:31:55]Yeah. But now you know you're not the glove. That's all. Yeah. It's like the thing with first there is no mountain, then there's a mountain, then there's the hope of no mountain, but then a mountain always appears again. Yeah, it's a bummer. But if it first is there's no mountain, Yeah. then the what how you look at mountains is different than when you think first there's a mountain. It just is. And then disappearance of mountain, great appearance of mountain. What the hell?

[00:32:26]Yeah. And then you're not super bummed out when all the work you did to get rid of the mountain which you didn't do at all anyway suddenly fails and the mountain reappears and you get completely demoralized.

[00:32:41]Yeah. Starting you got to go through that process. It's living let's say but starting is the most important point.

[00:32:50]Where do you start from? Are you are you starting from the reality of the mountain or you are are you starting from there is no mountain. It's going to determine how you travel through the rest of the the sequences. Yes, it is.

[00:33:07]Yeah, you can probably if you work super hard and everything like that get some relief even though this giant mountain is looming. But the easier softer way is to realize it's not a mountain.

[00:33:19]Yeah. Yeah, it is. And doesn't take much practice because there isn't a mountain.

[00:33:27]You're actually starting at the truth, not trying to arrive at the truth.

[00:33:32]You're starting at the truth. It's just starting at the truth. This you don't look like you've displayed a lot of thought or effort. Yeah. Trying to arrive at the truth may look like you have to put a lot of thought and effort into it, but starting there doesn't I don't see it demanding anything really. Yeah.

[00:33:55]Yeah. So, if you're trying to get back to where you haven't left, then it's going to be a lot of effort and thought and it's obviously going to fail and you're going end up in a stupid little meeting on Tuesday afternoon.

[00:34:11]Yeah.

[00:34:14]Yeah.

[00:34:15]So we can just enjoy the irony of it of the whole that other one that's an interesting thing is when I was nine when I saw my uncle Fred dead body and got that he wasn't that wasn't Uncle Fred. It didn't transfer to I wasn't Paul.

[00:34:38]was a it was a heavy it was amazing whack but it didn't spread to this condition. I was still completely entranced with Paul's the body even though I saw Uncle Fred dead body and I knew it wasn't Uncle Fred. I was living under the pretense. Yeah. So, uh, the stubbornness of the system you're going to run into it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:11]And you notice if you get a real big uh free sample, there usually is like a category 4 storm in the head the next half a day or something because it doesn't want uh Yeah. Once it gets a real sense you're getting withdrawn from its glove, let's say. Yeah. It's sort of wants to sabotage that in a way. Yeah. So when you start getting really frustrated, it's a good sign. truly is because that just means something that has hidden its unreliability concerning certain things like this message, let's call it the intellect, has now been revealed to be the emperor with no clothes. You can't get it.

[00:36:08]You can't get it through intellect.

[00:36:11]You can't be groed. Can't be because the intellect starts from It's all rooted in the body idea. Yeah.

[00:36:23]And the only thing a body can do is hope and or dream of not being a body all the while dreaming it as a body. So if you what's not a body knows it's not a body.

[00:36:38]Yeah. There's an aspect of what we are right now you can access. Not access is available. It's super clear. It's not a body.

[00:36:49]Completely.

[00:36:51]Completely.

[00:36:52]Yeah.

[00:37:01]I was wondering why the body wasn't getting it wasn't a body. I just then I realized well part of being a body is is to prevent any other information to get in that you could be anything else. Yeah.

[00:37:28]You know all those movies when they're in outer space and they land somewhere and then one guy or woman decides to take the helmet off and everyone no and they take it off. Woo! It's great. Most of them follow, don't they? They don't keep wearing the helmet.

[00:37:51]Yeah. If you had other possibilities, you could park there.

[00:37:58]Yeah. But the head keeps us in a very limited possibility state. Yeah. You can see it in recovery.

[00:38:08]Be if you're sober, if you're not drinking Yeah. and you get a desire or an urge to drink and if you call someone before you drink, there's a lot of possibilities.

[00:38:22]Yeah, you could go to a movie with that person, meet them at a meeting, do some service, you know, go work out, whatever. Yeah. But same person has this urge to drink, drinks, and then calls you after they drink. And at that point, there's not many possibilities.

[00:38:48]They've got to go to a meeting, so to speak. Yeah. or maybe a rehab or Yeah.

[00:38:55]or be watched over. It's the the possibilities shrink like that like really gets really tiny. Yeah. I feel most of us have been lived in have lived in a a permission vacuum for many for a long long time where there's a lot of what's not permitted and it's almost as if you play the role of the jailer, the jailed, and the warden. and you're trying to convince the jailer to give you some free time all sitting by and the only thing you see in the movie is you you're playing the warden the jailer the jailed.

[00:39:45]Yeah. So you feel well if I do good I'll get permission and it's all talk about transaction it's just a it's like a an orgasmic mental transaction event.

[00:40:01]Yeah. So a lot of times people come to talks like these and some character speaking seems to play a role to have that person get permission to be [ __ ] okay without doing anything. Yeah. It's I haven't turned you know I didn't get incinerated in a hellish bonfire.

[00:40:28]Yes.

[00:40:31]Your giant foot didn't come in and step on me. It didn't. Yeah, it's okay.

[00:40:39]You have permission to admit you're out you're outmatched. You have permission to so sort of, you know, call a timeout, step out of this fray and chill for a second. Yes.

[00:40:56]Perhaps there's a different way. Yeah.

[00:40:59]Yeah. So I feel a lot of us the the mental activity withholds puts us in a withholding pattern. Yeah. And then it's sort of like begging fish for fish and [ __ ] Somebody throws a scrap and stuff.

[00:41:19]Yeah.

[00:41:21]It's a spiritless cervility as we talk about in recovery. It's incredible statement. spiritless cervility.

[00:41:36]You're not going to ask for much probably on that condition.

[00:41:41]Yeah.

[00:41:43]So, all right.

[00:41:47]>> Hey, Paul. Um, I got a I got a question from somebody in the chat, and I'll just I'll read the question. It says ask uh ask Paul what he means when he says we give everything the meaning it has. Is he referring to the selfing by the head and I once heard him say if I am not wrong that the body is the projection of the mind. Could you say something about that please?

[00:42:11]>> Wow. Well well yes. Well, this comes out of the course of miracles, a famous uh download if you want to say lesson two, which you and I, meaning Zoe and Paul, give everything all the meaning it has. So, the mental uh in Buddhism, they believe everything is empty. Yeah. So here's an So let's just say the act that we're in is a projection of appearances. Yeah. But those appearances of empty. Yeah. They appear real, but they're not real as the appearance. Yeah. But they appear real, let's say. And they appear a lot to us.

[00:43:00]And what they appear with or as to us is coming from us. We're giving that emptiness all the meaning it has. Yes.

[00:43:09]We're giving the idea of time all the meaning it has. We da da da da. So you and I give everything all the meaning it has. It's a mechanical projection of the the dreamt is really like plays the role of the projector and then projection projects meaning onto the movie. Yeah. Yes. So you and I give everything all the meaning it has. So that you and I isn't talking about what we are ultimately. It's talking about the action figures role. Yes.

[00:43:47]All right. So what was the other thing?

[00:43:51]So so that's what I mean. I hope I get that through. Yeah. Okay, >> you and I uh are meaning givers. That's the role of the action figure this event is is to project meaning and emphasis and we're really having a subjective experience.

[00:44:10]Yeah.

[00:44:13]>> Yeah.

[00:44:14]>> All of us can be at the same Zoom and we're all having different experiences of the same do Zoom because the Zoom is not enforcing its meaning on us. We're giving the zoom all the meaning it has.

[00:44:28]Yes. Do you see that?

[00:44:33]Whatever meaning comes back at us was projected first.

[00:44:39]>> Yeah. So like the course would say you and I give everything all the meaning has or you and I are dreaming this dream. We forget that. So we forget that we're the dreaming and obviously we seem to remember ourselves as the dreamt.

[00:44:56]Yes. The body. Yeah. You get it? In that condition the ch everything changes when the dreaming is forgotten and the dreamt is taken to be us. In that condition the dream taken to be us. Everything that we have given meaning to now has the ability to give us a meaning.

[00:45:19]Yes. So now the world and its people seem to dominate us.

[00:45:26]The meaning we gave now to what we gave meaning to is that those meanings can affect us. And now we have an ass and that ass gets bitten.

[00:45:38]Yes. You see you see the thing. But it's projection first and then there's perception. There's projection first that we're missing. And we're just we start at the perceiving and we perceive things as real. Yeah.

[00:45:55]Because we believe we're real. We've missed a huge part which was before the perceiving part which is the projecting part. Like the course says says the mind projects and we perceive. So the mind is projecting this dreaming. Yeah. Zoe's dreaming. Michael's dreaming. Eric's dreaming. Mike's dreaming. Yeah, may have the same background. Maybe we're all living in the desert, but the subjective experience is different. So, you can be having a hellish event at the same place I'm having a heavenly event.

[00:46:32]Yeah. Because it's not the event. It's not it's not what we think it is. It's the meaning that's being given.

[00:46:41]Okay. So, that's that. And what was the other? No.

[00:46:44]So the first part was um we give everything the meaning it has. Is he referring to the selfing by the head and I think you just touched on that on the last part >> that is yes but also the selfing is part and parcel of a the larger thing which is every we're giving everything all the meaning it has. We're giving the selfing a huge meaning that it's coming from self.

[00:47:11]>> Yeah. But that's part of the projection, right?

[00:47:14]>> Yes. Yes. So selfing is not done by self. It implies a self.

[00:47:22]>> Yeah.

[00:47:22]>> Yeah. The mental activity is selfing.

[00:47:26]We're not.

[00:47:27]>> Yeah.

[00:47:27]>> Yeah. And that selfing when listened to it implies that there is a self already.

[00:47:34]So you are already that what it wants to make you believe you are now. It it implies you already are it. Yeah.

[00:47:43]So we get we are not at the starting line. Yeah. In other words, you could see your elbows like 10 yards ahead.

[00:47:54]Your ass is four yards back. It's like nothing.

[00:47:59]We're made Yeah. We're not privy to what's happening in a lot of ways.

[00:48:07]Yeah. We we're on the perceiving end.

[00:48:11]When there's a projecting end, uh projecting event before the perceiving, we start at the perceiving.

[00:48:20]Yeah.

[00:48:22]Just like in all now people would wish that they could have it in like first grade projection, you know, people are projecting constantly. They have a fear that they would do something to someone, so they think someone's doing it to them. It's all projection. Yeah. But people can't grab that. They don't get it. I mean, some guys I remember used to hearing politicians and they were they were uh warning a country not to do this terrible things that we were doing to that country. At the same moment, they were so ironically out to lunch. They had they're saying we're not going to abide this country and hey wait a minute we're doing the same thing to them. Yes.

[00:49:09]So this idea of projection is there's a much larger sense of it than just you projecting onto somebody else something you fear that you're going to do to somebody you believe they're going to do to you.

[00:49:24]Yeah. That's just that's a mimicking of it on a small level when it's a huge projection.

[00:49:32]And so what was the uh the second half is um and once I heard him say if I am not wrong that the body is the projection of the mind. Could you say something about that? I I think you touched it.

[00:49:49]>> Well yes. So the mind is dreaming and one of the projections of the mind dreaming is the body which plays a very big role because the body is the dreamt.

[00:50:01]Yeah. And so now uh in a way you're the one constant in your in your subjective dreaming.

[00:50:10]Yes. Called Mike which is framed as a body.

[00:50:16]Yes. So the dreamt is the dreamt is essential to be blind to the dreaming and to be perceiving the dream as real.

[00:50:26]The dreamt is essential.

[00:50:28]Yes. Just like that's why Paul didn't get the uncle Fred story.

[00:50:36]Yeah. Even though it was obvious, it wasn't applied here because this is a stubborn programming. Yeah. People can hear a lot about projection has a very difficult time noticing it. They don't people these were people super high up in in world government and with a straight face they were projecting galore saying we're won't we wouldn't brookke any other country to do what we were doing to the other countries. It was insane that nobody gets it. It's just amazing. So I don't believe that's uh a freaky phenomena. I believe that's it's manufactured. Yes.

[00:51:23]Yes. The dreamt.

[00:51:26]See this is the beautiful thing. The dreamt we've made a way out. We believe dreaming is at night.

[00:51:36]Yeah.

[00:51:38]and that but the dreaming if there wasn't a morning the dreaming at night would be just like this.

[00:51:46]It would be seemingly real to us with an unbroken seemingly being real. The night dream gets has a built-in wake up which is the morning. Yeah.

[00:52:01]But were you having the morning reaction to the dream while you were in the dreaming? No, you weren't. It was taken to be [ __ ] super real, I imagine.

[00:52:12]Yes. The only time you're relieved of that dreamt tiger is when you wake up in the morning.

[00:52:19]So, Rahman Mahashi would call this the awake dream. Yeah. So that we have this the asleep dream at night and of course duality. We're now in the phase called the awake dream. This Yeah. Yeah.

[00:52:37]So, we've excluded this because we think we know what dreaming is. It happens at night and I wake up from it. Yeah. But in fact, we're in the awake dreaming. And because we think we know what dreaming is, we don't recognize it. Even though it's completely happening, just like the night dreaming.

[00:53:03]Yeah.

[00:53:08]This isn't about you and I getting illuminated. It's see it's recognizing we're all sort of dull bulbs.

[00:53:19]We can't take 200 watts. We can only we can only withstand 60 watt. Yeah. We have to go down the line to the electrical source. Yeah. That's what we're of really not the bulb, you know. Yeah.

[00:53:43]Yes.

[00:53:46]I think nonduality is the quickest way because there's no way.

[00:53:52]Yeah. How much easier is it on having never left? I mean, you can't you can't get faster than that. You cannot get faster than on having never left.

[00:54:06]You just can't. Yeah.

[00:54:13]Oh, yeah. I hope we do it justice. I hope. I just This is just how I see it.

[00:54:22]>> Uh, ready for a question? Paul, Robert has his hand up.

[00:54:26]>> Yes. Oh, so we got the other two things answered, I guess. I I believe so. You did a great job. Thanks.

[00:54:31]>> All right.

[00:54:33]All right. What's bring Crossman in here?

[00:54:36]>> Yeah. Where'd he go?

[00:54:38]>> There he is. Oh, hey. Thanks a lot for that conversation. I I was wondering um if I could extend the idea of meaning making to the whole concept of telling a story like my meaning is constantly evolving into some more and more and more meaning. Yeah.

[00:55:00]Yes.

[00:55:03]>> That's great. As long as it's held as a story. Yeah.

[00:55:08]>> Yeah. But I consider my story real.

[00:55:14]>> You don't, but your head does. Yeah.

[00:55:15]Your head considers it real. Yes.

[00:55:19]>> Yeah. That's that's Thank you.

[00:55:20]>> You're open. You're open to uh to suggestion.

[00:55:25]Yeah.

[00:55:27]The head has to manufacture consent of the audience. It decided just to keep it ignorant. The audience, but information seeps in and now the audience isn't ignorant. It's on to something. Yes, the course says it beautifully. that thing uh you know relying on this something else to be your eyes and listening to it telling you whatever to do. Surely there would be no reason to question it. Yeah. But now you do. Yes. You question it and that's that's all that's needed really because whatever density or weight you've given it, it's empty.

[00:56:14]Yeah.

[00:56:16]Yeah. You're giving it the meaning it has. That meaning can be retracted.

[00:56:22]Yeah. Or seen through.

[00:56:25]And then it can be the emperor with no clothes when that meaning that was given to it is is retracted. Yeah. You don't do that. But it just leaves. And then you see the wizard before, you know, on the other side of the curtain.

[00:56:41]>> Yeah. And he's a small little dude. Yes.

[00:56:46]>> Yeah. So, storytelling is great. Yeah.

[00:56:52]>> I'm wondering if that has something to do with mental illness when the story gets messed up to the point where you can't follow it and you think it's real.

[00:57:02]>> Well, yeah, that's psychotic they call it, I would say. Yeah.

[00:57:07]Yeah. Just take a lot of coke, you'll go there. I got I got a young friend who's >> He will You'll be looking on the doors and [ __ ] like that.

[00:57:17]>> You'll be hearing footsteps on the roof.

[00:57:25]>> Yeah.

[00:57:28]Yeah. I think the head has gone far enough.

[00:57:33]Yeah.

[00:57:33]>> For me.

[00:57:35]>> Yeah. For Yeah. I mean, uh Yeah.

[00:57:40]Thanks, Paul.

[00:57:41]>> All you need is possibility. It's it suffocates you with its impossibilities.

[00:57:49]Yeah.

[00:57:51]Obviously, people don't believe that there's nothing needed to be done. So, being so sure about that, life allows them to do a lot of stuff to bring them to the point that they didn't need to do anything. Yeah. So you can arrive at where you already are through arduous effort and thought or you can realize there has been no departure from where from where where you are and it's like the easier softer way but whatever whatever is necessary a lot of times the head is just trying to convince itself. Yeah. If you can get over that, it speeds up. I need do nothing for sure.

[00:58:41]Yeah.

[00:58:44]Yeah.

[00:58:54]>> Okay.

[00:58:56]>> Good.

[00:58:57]>> Daron has his hand up.

[00:58:59]>> Dashan. Yes. Yeah.

[00:59:02]>> Hey, Paul.

[00:59:03]>> How's it going, buddy?

[00:59:04]>> Good.

[00:59:09]>> Yeah. I just feel like uh riffing for a bit if you don't mind.

[00:59:14]>> The stuff you want to say.

[00:59:16]>> We can always mute you. So, go ahead.

[00:59:18]>> Okay. Yeah. Mute me if I get off the rails.

[00:59:21]>> Get the mute ready, Mike. I'll get >> the mute ready >> like this. No, >> I got a mustache now. Michael won't mute me.

[00:59:28]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:59:30]I like what you say about uh in self forgetting we're reborn.

[00:59:35]>> Well, that was Francis.

[00:59:37]>> Yeah, the quote you use. I mean, you use a lot of quotes, but like you use them to your own means, you know, like Well, I think that's one thing I really like about this satsang satsang is um how unique it is. And I feel like you used like everything that happened in your life and everything that is happening to kind of just be of maximum use in the way that only you can. And like all these little sayings and phrases that um you know like you call it the crypticness of non-duality or like you call this meaning non-duality but like I don't think anyone else is sharing like you share. I don't think anyone else is um like being very direct and clear on the exact nature of the wrong like you are here. And I think that's a beautiful thing because I think everyone it's kind of like you said, right? Like you like doing the dishes can be like can be seen as like one of those very mundane things, but um like nothing to write home about, I guess.

[01:00:50]And um actually I'm not sure where where I was trying to connect the dishes thing, but I think off the like self >> I think you got cut off there.

[01:01:15]>> No, I just stopped talking.

[01:01:18]I think like off the self forgetting we're reborn.

[01:01:26]>> Honestly, I mean, I don't really feel like saying anything.

[01:01:30]>> All right.

[01:01:30]>> I was like about to go, but then I was just like I lost steam, I guess. Like >> that's okay.

[01:01:37]>> I feel like all the I feel like coming to these like all the air got blown out of my balloon. like I was like it's nice to say something but then I don't know I feel like you've got it covered here. So then like I mean you went off for like 40 minutes and so then which is awesome. It's awesome that you've been doing this for like 30 years like and just giving and um yeah I don't know. I guess I could rip off the things you said but then I've literally just lost steam because it's just That's okay, bro.

[01:02:15]>> Who cares?

[01:02:16]>> Yeah, who cares?

[01:02:18]>> So, yeah, I guess I'll just stop.

[01:02:21]>> That's good.

[01:02:22]>> Like, yeah, I'm done.

[01:02:24]>> That's good. Yeah. Yeah, that's great.

[01:02:27]Yeah, this is a seed assignment. I don't uh Yeah, I just show up and um basically see what happens.

[01:02:41]It's a difficult uh thing because there's no progression and there's no like 2026 non-duality. It's not like it's more advanced or prog it's progressing. It's just a fact.

[01:02:57]And uh it can really matter or it can not matter at all but it's a fact. And uh I found um it was the last answer which is to me in this world that's a valuable answer the last one because it takes away the need for any other answers in a topic that I was quite interested in. So that's amazing.

[01:03:26]And you know if you're in a world uh where problems are really a shade you know solutions have a shadow of problem to find something that actually works without demanding you to do anything is awesome. I feel it's great.

[01:03:46]>> Yeah.

[01:03:46]>> I mean something something works. I I don't know like like it's kind of like you said you don't like you don't know anything. Like I I feel like the more I come here, the less the less I know.

[01:03:58]Well, okay. Wait, there's there's this one thing. There's this uh there's this uh Nissad quote where it's like moment by moment, the little I need to know like comes to me. And I feel like you you hit on a similar thing where it's like you go to bed and you forget yourself and then you wake up and then something tells you about the day and it's kind of like that mental state is like the remembering. And um I think you kind of allude to that a lot or hit on that a lot. It's like we don't really need that much. And it's it's surprising like how little you actually need like what you think you need to live life versus like moment by moment living.

[01:04:43]Um yeah, you you don't really need that much I guess. And >> well, we're in extreme luxury, you know.

[01:04:54]>> Yeah.

[01:04:54]>> Us we we are accessing extreme luxury.

[01:04:59]>> You mean just like modern day living?

[01:05:01]>> Just like looking into a Zoom at the moment right now, >> laying on some kind of furniture that's probably has a good firm cushion.

[01:05:12]>> Yeah. and the faith that you're not going to be evicted in the next half an hour and that uh there's some food in the refrigerator and your car has gas. I mean uh we're in the lap of luxury.

[01:05:31]Yeah. But in a subjective place, uh if circumstances change, you'd be whistling a different tune as the action figure. Yes. So, uh >> I think I like the action figure to me is like an art project and gratitude is a great we have a wonderful thing in recovery about gratitude and it really helped me because >> they pointed out to us how ungrateful we were and uh every and I remember if something went well I was disappointed it didn't go better you know like super quickly I'd piss on every nice thing that would come around and I remember the head had to get trained and they had a thing we did which was a gratitude list and I needed to do it in the beginning because and then I had a little corny thing I did when anything happened that was cool I would say thank you That was more than enough. Yeah. And uh it it was uh it was like whistling when the tune was being played. So I played a little role. I was whistling along with the tune that was starting to take over. Yeah. And uh just to have that gratitude as an attitude now, not as an act I have to do, but as a a way of looking from the old way of looking.

[01:07:11]Uh you couldn't have you couldn't have uh bridged by 30 glasses to get to the new way of looking. You were given like new eyes really. It's awesome. So yeah, we uh we have the luxury to entertain ideas where some people right now don't.

[01:07:36]They've got life's right up in their face constantly. Yeah.

[01:07:42]>> I mean, yeah, I got to play video games for a living. So, >> yeah, >> I'm very grateful that >> life I gotta live.

[01:07:51]>> Yeah. So, uh, the action figure has a great I I think some of its highest heights is gratitude and wonder or awe and it really uh whatever this action figure needed a way of life because it was it was living a way of life that was leading it to institution, jails, and death as the uh inevitability and uh no human power could change that yet something did. So obviously the greatest movement in my life has been a nonhuman power.

[01:08:40]So I'm all for finding or seeking a source of power not as the human.

[01:08:49]Yeah. So, all right. Thanks, Dashan.

[01:08:53]Yeah.

[01:08:54]>> Thanks, Paul.

[01:08:56]>> I'm happy we have this thing and people can come here and chill a little. Yeah.

[01:09:02]And I I hope uh we can all continue it as long as we want.

[01:09:10]Yeah.

[01:09:12]I love seeing everyone here. John K brought some history to the meeting, recovery meeting, and uh Kerry and Mike G and Allan and Zoe and John Florida, Dashan, Michael, Stacy, all those people. It's been uh this is a it's a shared event sat it's it's an association with the truth and we're in it right now and there's a loving power expressing itself through our group conscience.

[01:10:02]Yeah, if that becomes the biggest influence in your life, I'm sure you're going to travel lighter, I I'm positive. I have a large amount of faith in it. Yeah. All right. So, let's say goodbye, I guess. I think we've got Ben in Kansas. Nice to see you, Ben. John in Florida. Always a pleasure. Zoe, always a pleasure.

[01:10:31]AG, Mia, Katherine, Aan, Olsen, the illusory Eric. Yeah, Mia.

[01:10:45]That's funny. You can't see the real Eric, but you can see the illusory Eric.

[01:10:51]Something's wrong. Here we got Ham. Nice to see her.

[01:11:00]Mia.

[01:11:02]Uh, I saw what's his Oh, David Berman. Uh, David, nice to see you, bro. We got Mike G was floating around. Hey, thank you for everyone. Cross, Robbie, Crossman.

[01:11:17]I can't go to the other page. Oh, here's some of you now. Got Mike G, AG, Annette. Nice to see you, Annette. Hey, Alan Olsen, Robert. Okay, iPhone dash on. Thank you. It's a pleasure and uh we'll be around tomorrow and someone just said uh somebody sent me a thing. I don't I'm probably going to lo I just someone just chatted me something. I don't know but we're going to lose it. As soon as it's out of my vision, it's [ __ ] gone.

[01:11:59]Okay. Well, I'll see you guys. Bye bye.

[01:12:04]>> Thank you, dude. Thank you, everyone.