Calvinist Says EVERY Atrocity was "NECESSARY"?! | Forrest Valkai & Justin DZ

Added: 2026-06-04

[00:00:00]Let's talk next to Daniel uh who says that suffering is not an argument against God. Daniel, you're on the line with Forest and Justin. How you doing tonight?

[00:00:12]>> I'm doing great, guys. Thanks for having me on. Um I've actually been wanting to talk to both of you for a while, but uh tonight I wanted to uh focus in on something that Justin had said. I think it was at the very first call maybe uh towards the end where he was talking about you know that there's evil in the world there's suffering in the world and if I was understanding him correctly he was saying that you know this or he was saying it as if it proves that God does not exist God does not exist because there's suffering in the world did I did I did I understand you correctly on that >> not really no I think unnecessary suffering is the right way to say it I think theoretically you can make a case that there is some level of necessary suffering. Um but the reality is like babies being born with bone cancer uh couldn't be necessary suffering. Um tornadoes, earthquakes, volcanoes, hurricanes, those certainly wouldn't be classified as uh necessary suffering.

[00:01:12]And uh I'm working on the assumption that you think that unnecessary suffering is bad. I could be wrong. Do you agree with me that unnecessary suffering is bad?

[00:01:23]Uh yes and and I think that you actually mentioned some of those things during that call. Um I I would say from a Christian perspective I would think that unnecessary suffering like from our perspective it may not be necessary because we don't understand the reason for it. Um but I would say that ultimately all suffering has some purpose.

[00:01:46]>> Oh so then we have no motivation to prevent suffering here on the earth then.

[00:01:52]No, I I think we do have a motivation.

[00:01:54]Um, again, as a Christian, I would say, you know, in the Bible.

[00:01:59]>> No, no, no. It's necessary. Now, if it if if the unnecessary suffering is God using it to bring about some greater good, then uh we shouldn't be stopping it.

[00:02:11]>> No, we're we're actually told to uh in the Bible, like we're we're told to, for example, take care of the fatherless and the widows. um which which I would >> okay >> so there is some suffering we should prevent huh >> right or we should we should do what we can to try anyway >> and how do we know which ones are uh are good and which one are bad >> well we don't um from our perspective you know all suffering it it people that's all we can see >> okay so we just got to guess right >> so like we can't say what the plan is behind it all DC is what we can see from our side thing if that makes sense.

[00:02:51]>> Well, then how do we know who to help?

[00:02:55]>> I I would say help everybody that you that you can uh when you're able to.

[00:02:59]>> But you might be doing the wrong thing, right? God might be making this person suffer because they need this person to suffer to bring about some greater good and us helping them is going to prevent that from happening.

[00:03:13]>> Right? So I and to clarify, I I am one of those who believes that God is sovereign and that everything that happens happens at his own um ordaining it. But from the human perspective, I would say that my my duty is to do what I'm commanded to do.

[00:03:31]>> Are you a Calvinist?

[00:03:32]>> Leave the rest to him. Am I what?

[00:03:35]>> A Calvinist. Are you a Calvinist?

[00:03:38]>> Are you a There we go. That checks out.

[00:03:42]Okay. So then um what that means then is you think that the Haitian earthquake was necessary, huh? It killed 200,000 people in 2010.

[00:03:50]>> You said you you are a Calvinist. I just want to make I didn't hear that. You said yes.

[00:03:55]>> Yes.

[00:03:55]>> Okay. I'm sorry. Please continue. I didn't mean to interrupt. I just that that's going to frame how you answer that question in my head.

[00:04:01]>> Yeah. Was the Haitian earthquake good?

[00:04:05]>> I I would say that God is the one who sent that earthquake. Now what his purpose was I can't say but I would say that he was definitely behind it and since God is all >> but was it necessary >> but was it necessary?

[00:04:19]>> I would say well yeah because God God has his reasons for doing everything that he does.

[00:04:26]>> Necessary for what?

[00:04:28]>> [ __ ] Jesus.

[00:04:32]>> I'm I'm sorry. You were both talking. I think >> what's it what was the earthquake necessary for?

[00:04:40]>> That's not a question I can answer. I don't know God's mind.

[00:04:43]>> Well, it's kind of important for the argument, right? If your argument is that the earthquake was necessary and ask you what is it necessary for, I need some kind of an answer.

[00:04:53]>> I I can't get past that. That's that is a wild claim >> that God's up there just like here's here's the Holocaust. You guys clean up the mess. That's just that's just what this dude does.

[00:05:06]>> He just knocks over bricks and and slaughters >> he just slaughters innocent people in the in the just scores and scores of people >> and lets us clean it up. So just in case he we needed to.

[00:05:20]>> He he might have wanted it to happen. He did want it to happen, but we might need to clean it up. So we're just we should do that. And you worship this [ __ ] thing. I don't believe he does anything without purpose, but I don't believe that we can know all the time what those purposes are.

[00:05:35]>> Is it possible for his purpose to be evil?

[00:05:39]>> No.

[00:05:41]So then just to be clear, just just to be just you think that [ __ ] like the Holocaust was a good thing because it happened on God's watch. God made it happen and he has a good plan.

[00:05:52]Therefore, it was a good thing ultimately.

[00:05:56]>> No, I think that God is good. I think that men are evil and I think that God allows evil things to happen and brings them about for a better or a greater good >> like genocide. So the genocide in Gaza, >> the genoc like we're talking about Congo, talking about Sudan, talking about the Holocaust, talking about Rwanda, talking about Darur, all these things. When just scores and scores of people are slaughtered in the most horrific ways, that's God doing something good. He's allowing evil for a good reason. So you think these things are ultimately worth it?

[00:06:34]>> Yes, I believe God uses good for or evil for good.

[00:06:38]>> There it is.

[00:06:39]>> And I think there are biblical examples of >> Well, I know there are biblical examples, but here's the problem with it, right? Let me ask you a easy question. Let's let's say, for example, you don't know why the Haitian earthquake was necessary. You just know that it was right. Let's let's say God had a goal. We're going to call that goal goal number one, right? Uh is God capable of of achieving goal number one without the earthquake?

[00:07:07]>> Well, sure. He's omnipotent. He could do what he wanted.

[00:07:10]>> There you go. So, what that means if if you're capable of achieving your goal without the suffering and then you use the suffering to achieve your goal, that's unnecessary suffering.

[00:07:25]Well, no. I would say from from his perspective, it was necessary. That was the way he chose to do it.

[00:07:30]>> Nope. That's not how the word necessary means. The word necessary.

[00:07:33]>> Could have done it, would it?

[00:07:35]>> Yeah. It means it can't be any other way. Necessary means this is the only way it could have been done. So, if God had other means, he could have done it some other way. What that means is that the suffering is no longer necessary.

[00:07:50]It's just a decision. And just making a decision to make 200,000 people suffer, more than that actually suffer when you didn't have to do it. Well, that's [ __ ] horrific. That's evil, >> right? But Daniel, uh, actually in Daniel, I think it's Daniel chapter 4, he says, you know, God does as he pleases in the heaven and among the people of the earth. No one can hold back, hold him back or say, "What have you done?" But >> what, right?

[00:08:17]>> That doesn't affect the argument. Again, we're right back to the other thing.

[00:08:22]This is just the argument of might makes right. He's big and strong and his dicks real large and therefore he can do anything he wants, no matter how evil.

[00:08:30]And who are we to question it? That's not how morality works. That's how obedience and tyranny works. And I would expect nothing less from somebody who literally just said the Holocaust was worth it.

[00:08:45]Well, I would say that God being the creator does have the right to do whatever he wants to do.

[00:08:51]>> And I think that's [ __ ] sick.

[00:08:53]>> So, here we are at this in pass.

[00:08:55]>> Yeah. I I just want to be clear like you're suggesting as uh Forest said that the moral framework is might makes right. Is that your framework?

[00:09:05]>> Well, my framework is that God is good and therefore as creator everything that he does is good. He has the right to do That doesn't answer my question.

[00:09:13]>> You said that he has the right to do it >> because he's powerful, right? So that equates to might makes right. I'm powerful enough to do it and you can't question me. Therefore, it's right.

[00:09:26]>> Yeah, we'll go with that.

[00:09:28]>> Okay. So, when God said that he's going to have the Babylonian women uh raped and have their baby's heads smashed against rocks in Isaiah chapter 13, that was like the the people who are following the command to do that was doing a good thing.

[00:09:49]I would say if God I would have to look that up to be honest with you, but I would say that if that's the command that was given, then uh God would be right to do that because he is good. We are not. And >> we don't at all. We don't deserve mercy at all. But the fact that's why >> that's why religion >> I wonder if we can like just get to a point where Daniel where you are as disgusted with yourself as as I am with you. Like I want Can you just >> We'll get there.

[00:10:18]>> I was cur Can you just just say the sentence? Just I just want to see if you have the stomach to just say it out loud. Sometimes rape is good. And can can you just be very clear about that?

[00:10:30]>> Well, yeah, I can be clear about that because the the view that I take and this is what I tell a lot of people when they ask questions like that is that God used the greatest evil ever committed, which was the murder of Christ for good.

[00:10:43]So I don't have >> evil.

[00:10:45]>> He uses lesser evil. Good.

[00:10:49]>> Jesus committed two capital offenses. He should have been murdered according to his own laws. But um when God says in Jeremiah 199 that he's going to cause the Israelites to cannibalize their own children as punishment. Cannibalizing the children I guess was good.

[00:11:05]>> Yes. He was bringing judgment on them.

[00:11:08]>> Okay. Yeah. So So what we got so far is that sometimes it's good to rape women.

[00:11:13]Sometimes it's good to cannibalize.

[00:11:14]>> Isaiah 45 actually says, "I create good and evil."

[00:11:19]>> I know. 457. We're aware. So, >> it does.

[00:11:22]>> Let me ask you a question. If God told you, Daniel, listen, I'm passing judgment on your neighbors. I'm going to need you to burn their house down. It would be good to obey him.

[00:11:34]>> I wouldn't because the only way that God speaks is through his word. And he doesn't speak like, for example, the way he spoke to Moses.

[00:11:41]Oh, God speaks to people directly.

[00:11:44]>> You kill me personally to do that.

[00:11:47]>> Is it is it within God's nature to speak to human beings directly?

[00:11:53]>> Directly? Yeah. I mean, he has in the past.

[00:11:56]>> Okay. So, it there you go. God's nature doesn't change. And it's within God's nature to speak directly to humans, which means he could, if he wanted to speak directly to you, right?

[00:12:07]>> If he wanted to, but he doesn't.

[00:12:10]>> There you go. So if he did, that's how hypotheticals work. If he did, if God spoke to you, said, "Listen, your neighbors are evil, needed to burn down the house, the right thing to do would be to burn down the house, right?"

[00:12:25]>> I mean, I understand where you're going with this. To be honest with you, as a as a human being, I don't know if I could.

[00:12:31]>> I I didn't ask you if you would. I said, "Would it be right to do it?" I didn't ask you if you would do it.

[00:12:40]No, because I think it would be violating the commands he's given us.

[00:12:44]But >> no, it wouldn't.

[00:12:45]>> Okay, let's have been a time when he was still speaking. But yes, >> there's not a single command in the Bible that this would violate. In fact, God commands the killing of men, women, and children routinely. In fact, we we already covered in Jeremiah 19:9. He says that he's going to cause people to cannibalize their own children. So, is it within God's nature to ask you to murder a family inside of their home?

[00:13:14]>> Anytime God brought judgment, he didn't just like send people into their homes.

[00:13:17]It was always a like a corporate judgment. So, I don't think so.

[00:13:21]>> And and again, you you'd be wrong because he uh commands the murdering of an entire family just just spec a specific family in the book of Numbers.

[00:13:30]So, we'll try this again. Is it within God's nature? I'm not asking you did he ever do it. I'm asking you is it in God's nature that he could tell you to burn down your neighbor's house for judgment?

[00:13:44]>> Potentially. Yes.

[00:13:46]>> Oh, yeah. Exactly. Now, if he did that, because it is a potential within his nature, would it be right to obey?

[00:13:56]>> Well, yeah. The right thing to do would be to obey him.

[00:13:59]>> There you go. The right thing to do would be to burn down the house. Now, if prior to burning down the house, he said, "Listen, um, we they have to suffer more than just being burnt in the house. I want you to take the baby out of the house and, you know, put him through a meat grinder." That would be the That'd still be the right thing to do. Huh.

[00:14:19]>> Yes. But I don't I don't believe that would be consistent with >> Yeah. would would be the right thing to do. Yeah. So, just to be clear, if God told you to go turn your neighbor's baby into uh Krabby Patties, that would be the right thing to do.

[00:14:34]>> Listen, this is I'm sold. What a what a what a great guy. What a loving religion of peace and love.

[00:14:39]>> Help me in. [ __ ] it. I'll see I'll see you next Sunday, folks.

[00:14:43]>> I I have a fun question that I just want to ask Daniel here. Um Daniel, we've been engaging with a lot of hypotheticals, and I appreciate that.

[00:14:52]Um, I I want to ask you one more hypothetical just just to see interesting. Um, 1st Samuel 15:3, God commands Saul, I believe it was, uh, go and attack the Amalachites. Totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them. Put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. So God specifically commands, "Go kill women, children, babies, every single bit of this culture." Um, do you have a family, Daniel?

[00:15:26]>> Yeah.

[00:15:28]>> Okay. So, here's the hypothetical. Magic wand is waved and poof, magically right now, you, Daniel, your wife, and your children all magically are actually Amalachites. You poof back thousands of years ago and you are now citizens of Amalecch and you're exactly the same as you are right now just in that time period. You, Daniel, all your thoughts, all your experiences, everything about you, you just exist in this city today.

[00:15:57]And God gives this command to Saul. Go wipe out that city. Destroy everyone there. Men, women, children, babies, everybody. Do you help the the the the Israelites kill your family, or do you hide them? Do you protect your family from the army coming to slaughter your children and you or do you walk out and say, "Hey y'all, I'm a Christian. I believe in God. He says, "Kill me and my kids. My kids are right here. Go kill them." What do you do, Daniel?

[00:16:30]I'm not sure how that would work since the Amalocites didn't believe. But given your uh given this scenario they give um if I were a Christian then I would do everything that I could to protect my family. But I would also understand that if that happened it would be judgment because that was the reason God sent him against the >> So you would fight. So just to be clear you would fight against the will of God to protect your family.

[00:16:57]Well, the Amalachites didn't serve the same God. But yeah, I mean, >> no, I'm saying you you right now, you poof into that city. God didn't say the one that >> God didn't say go door to door and ask each Amalachite if they're a Christian.

[00:17:13]God didn't say check their religion first. He said slaughter everyone and their babies. So, I'm asking you, do you follow the will of God and help those Israelites find your children and murder them or do you protect your family? What do you do?

[00:17:34]>> Obedience to God comes before sacrifice, which is actually what God told Saul when he rejected him and punished him for disobeying that command.

[00:17:43]>> And so, the answer is what?

[00:17:48]Are you obedient to God and help them kill your family or do you protect your family and disobey God?

[00:17:55]>> In that scenario, I would have to be obedient to God just as the Israelites were >> and protect. So, you would slaughter have your own family slaughtered just to make sure that God's commandment was fulfilled.

[00:18:08]>> His judgment on a very wicked people.

[00:18:11]See, you you're I think there's a couple of things coming.

[00:18:15]>> I didn't ask what the caveats were, man.

[00:18:17]What I asked you is, would you help them kill your family and you as well?

[00:18:28]>> Wait, say that again because you're >> I didn't ask you what.

[00:18:32]>> I'll say exactly what I just said. I didn't ask for the caveat.

[00:18:36]>> When you set up the scenario, you said that if I was among the Amalachites, but I was a believer.

[00:18:42]>> Yep. If you exactly as you are right now, >> if you exactly as you are right now were poofed with magic into that civilization, God did not command the Israelites to check the religion of everyone in that city. He said, "Slaughter every man, woman, child, and baby." That's what he said. So if you were standing in that city, doesn't matter if you're a Christian or not, if you were standing in that city at that time, the Israelites would have killed you and your children. So I'm asking you, God said, "Kill everyone in that city." If you, Daniel, were in that city, knowing that that is the will of the God you worship, would you help the Israelites find and kill you and your family, or would you defend yourself and protect your children from her harm?

[00:19:29]What would you do?

[00:19:32]>> I would probably defend my family, but the scenario doesn't work because all of the Amalachites were against God. That's why he punished them. And so, and so here we are.

[00:19:42]>> And so here we are. You would defend your family. You would go against the will of God. God said, "Kill everyone in that city." He didn't say, "Kill all the non-Christians." He said, "Kill everyone in that city." You would go against the will of God and protect your family. And you say all this just a few minutes after you said, "Rape is good sometimes.

[00:20:05]Murder is good sometimes, genocide is good sometimes." Bone cancer in children is good sometimes. Starvation, slavery, all these horrible things are all good because they're part of God's plan. And conveniently, they're happening to other people. But when it comes down to you and your family, you would violate the will of God because, well, he must have made some mistake. [ __ ] you, Daniel, and [ __ ] the God you worship.

[00:20:32]>> There's a distinction between what we see and what God is seeing. What is it is evil. I didn't say it was good. I said it was evil, but I said God uses evil for good.

[00:20:42]>> Yeah.

[00:20:42]>> And when it's when it's evil being and when it's evil being visited upon you, you have very different rules.

[00:20:50]>> Not at all. My wife is suffering as we speak. And we both agree that God has a purpose in it.

[00:20:57]>> So you think it's a good thing that she's suffering?

[00:21:01]>> I think that God has a purpose in it.

[00:21:03]Now that purpose so far has been to help us to rely and learn to trust him more.

[00:21:10]>> So it's a good thing that she's suffering >> ultimately. Yes. Suffering can draw us closer to God.

[00:21:17]>> So it also helped her to be able to talk to other people who are in that position.

[00:21:22]>> Could God draw you closer to him without the suffering?

[00:21:28]>> Yes, of course.

[00:21:30]>> Okay. So then it's still not necessary.

[00:21:32]God's still a vindictive [ __ ] >> Once again, >> so this is why the the argument from unnecessary suffering is so powerful, Daniel. Like I realize, so I I was a Christian once. I was a Christian for a long time, right? And I remember uh remember when Bart Airman wrote a book called God's Problem. It must have been >> 15 or 17 years ago.

[00:21:53]>> Yeah. Before that before that book came out, I saw the title of it. I saw the blurb about it. I thought Bartman was an idiot. I was still a Christian. Thought I was an idiot. And the the reality was cuz I never thought through all the intricacies of the suffering arguments.

[00:22:08]I didn't spend enough time on theodysy.

[00:22:11]I I was the one who was deficient in my thinking. And then finally, long after he published, I read the book. I was like, "Oh, [ __ ] This guy's right." It it it's really easy to think that suffering is not a problem when you haven't really engaged deeply into the actual arguments. We're we're only on the surface of the suffering argument, which is typically we're calling it the unnecessary suffering, but like this is a very deep problem and it's been around for a long time and it's not going anywhere because it's a good argument.

[00:22:47]>> Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't say man's an idiot. I think that he actually challenges me a lot um along with others that I've read. I mean, even listening to you guys, uh even though I'm fairly new to the channel and and your uh your page on Facebook, Justin, it's it's I find myself being challenged on a lot of things. Like there's a lot of questions I hear asked that I can't uh immediately answer. Um which is a which I think is a good thing. Um but and I just lost my train of thought there but uh when you talk about suffering because you call it evil, we talk about evil and good. Uh where do you get evil and good like from a from a humanistic perspective?

[00:23:32]>> Well to me like my moral framework is like utilitarian do the least amount of harm, right? I believe that harm is inherently bad. So like for for example, it's not hard for me. I can look at somebody's suffering. I don't have to worry about whether or not that person should suffer to bring about a greater good. No, if I can prevent them from suffering, I will. It's easy. It's just it's very very black and white for me.

[00:23:56]But in the God worldview, you don't have that. In a God world view, you have no idea why somebody's suffering. It could be that you're intervening in God's plan if you help them.

[00:24:04]For me, it's just anytime if somebody were to say something like rape is good sometimes, I just know that's not a moral person and that's pretty much all that I need.

[00:24:12]>> Yeah.

[00:24:13]>> Well, no. When you when you say I would be interfering by helping that person, um, like I said, I think at the beginning, I believe that everything happens because God ordained it, which would include me helping that person. He he would he would ordain the suffering as well as the means to them receiving aid.

[00:24:32]>> Yeah. I mean, but the fact of the matter is then if it comes down to you're helping them because God ordained it, at that point you're not even an agent, at that point this conversation is useless.

[00:24:43]>> Like if all you are are just uh predestined, like if every little thing was predestined by God, then Romans chapter 9 is true. There's some of us that God literally created just to be vessels of wrath. Uh which makes them even more [ __ ] evil.

[00:25:02]Why would that make him evil though?

[00:25:04]>> What do you think the word evil means?

[00:25:08]>> Uh evil would be well God is good. He's the standard of good. So anything evil would be what is on to God.

[00:25:15]>> He's not the standard of good. I disagree with that. Um evil is just like a really bad. So especially in Hebrew, right? So raw in Hebrew just refers to bad or badness, but it's also how we translate the word evil. So like from uh from the biblical worldview like evil is just something that's like really bad.

[00:25:34]So when I say evil, I'm just saying something that's really bad. That's all I'm saying. So I I don't believe that the God of this book is is good because if raping women and murdering babies and in some passages he says that he's going to have women's wombs ripped open and the babies torn from them. Now, if somebody can command all that and still be good, we don't know what good is anymore. We no longer have a definition of good. If you think good means sometimes you get to rape women, good and bad has lost all of its meaning, it's gone. It's done.

[00:26:11]>> Well, to be to be clear, I think rape is evil. Again, I'm not saying that it's good. I'm saying unless God commands it.

[00:26:19]>> I'm saying that he uses evil for good.

[00:26:21]And yes, sometimes he commands evil.

[00:26:22]Well, you Well, you don't >> What's the difference? Just out of curiosity, >> what's the difference between something evil that is done for good and something that is just [ __ ] evil?

[00:26:33]>> How do you tell that? What's What's the Because it sounds like you're just using the words good and evil as just kind of like placeholders when ultimately the consequence of the action is good and therefore you still think it's good.

[00:26:51]>> Okay. Um, and that may be on me for for not saying it well. When when you say evil is really bad, um, something that's really bad.

[00:27:02]To me, it sounds like you're saying the same thing. And maybe that's just my brain not working. How would you define bad? If I say if I say, how do you define evil? And you just say, well, it's something that's really bad. How do you define bad? I mean, what makes something bad?

[00:27:17]>> Well, good and evil. Good and bad are subjective terms. And in fact, they're subjective in your worldview. You just might not realize it yet. So good is the thing that's like always preferred.

[00:27:28]Something bad would be the thing that's that's not preferred or something that would have some sort of a negative outcome. Uh so in my worldview, they're subjective, but like in your worldview, you don't know if they're objective. In fact, in your worldview, they're not objective. In fact, you think that your god decides what is good and bad. And if that's the case, they're subjective.

[00:27:47]They're subject to the mind of God. But why would I conclude that God is good?

[00:27:53]Like you're just defining God as good.

[00:27:55]Why would anyone conclude that?

[00:28:00]>> Okay. So, you said two things there. I I would say they're not >> subjective in my worldview.

[00:28:07]>> Um they are >> first they're objective to us because like you said, God is the one who defines them. But I would say they're not even subjective to God because they perceive like from his nature.

[00:28:17]>> That's not what No, if they don't proceed from his nature. Uh God's God's morals are things he decided. He decided what is moral because you believe that the laws change which means God can decide that it's good to do the Mosaic law back then and then later you don't have to do it. Right? So if it's if it's good to do it then and then not good to do it later. No, no, no. I'm I'm aimist.

[00:28:44]I don't believe the Mosaic law has been abolished.

[00:28:48]>> Say that again.

[00:28:50]>> I I don't believe Jesus said and you you actually quoted this earlier. I say Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law. He came to fulfill it. It's not abolished.

[00:28:59]>> Okay. Then do you think that we should be stoning virgins that don't bleed on their wedding night?

[00:29:06]>> I I believe the law of God is the standard and should be the standard for society. Then do you believe that according to Deuteronomy I know according to Deuteronomy 22 if a woman doesn't bleed on her wedding night >> should she be stoned >> under a theocratic society? Yes. And we don't do that in our society because we don't follow his law.

[00:29:30]>> So So you >> should we Jesus Christ, dude. Should we follow his law?

[00:29:36]I I just said I believe God's law is and should be the standard in society.

[00:29:41]>> So then the answer to Justin's question is just yes, right? Not the [ __ ] the tap dancy [ __ ] Like it's so Oh my god, dude. It's so [ __ ] difficult.

[00:29:52]>> Gotcha.

[00:29:53]>> A straight answer, man.

[00:29:54]>> Now, now let me tell you why. First of all, this is horrific, by the way. But second of all, you are aware that uh the bloody sheet is not a valid test for finding out someone's virginity, right?

[00:30:07]Right. And I would say that in our society, you know, we have other ways of telling. So I think that would apply in some way.

[00:30:13]>> But that shit's not in the Bible, is it?

[00:30:16]>> Yeah. Not only is it not in the Bible, there is no method. Just to be clear, like we don't have a method that we can use to test and guarantee somebody is and isn't virgin. Doesn't exist. Not even modern day.

[00:30:33]Do they not have kits that they can test to see if somebody's uh had sex like rape kits and stuff?

[00:30:40]>> Nope. If recently, you can test for stuff recently, but you can't tell if someone has never had sex before. No, there is no actual virginity test.

[00:30:51]Usually, people are just looking for a highman.

[00:30:55]>> Okay. Yeah, I'll grant that. Um, >> but they don't that's that's not a good reliable method. Highman's break all the time. Some people just don't [ __ ] have them. Sometimes they grow back. And at the end of the day, it is just you.

[00:31:07]It is just another person, usually an old man, inspecting the giblets of a young girl to see if she's [ __ ] by her new forced husband. That's what it almost always boils down to. So, this is something in the Bible that says this is a purity test for virginity. It isn't accurate and it's [ __ ] gross. And the result of this is stoning a young girl to death. And you, Daniel, you [ __ ] lunatic, think that it is a good thing and something that should be implemented in our society. And you're sitting here asking where our morality comes from.

[00:31:48]>> So here's the here's the thing, Daniel.

[00:31:50]What? About halfway through this call, I I had it in my head. I thought, you know what?

[00:31:55]>> It seems like you're a decent guy, but the religion is making you say stupid things. The reality is at this point I don't think you're a decent individual.

[00:32:03]>> I think that if you would advocate for stoning a woman just because she wasn't a virgin on on her wedding night, especially on the evidence that's provided in Deuteronomy 22, I think you're you're a monster. I think you should be checked out. I think someone should look at your head and we should like dedicate you to science at one point after you pass from this life.

[00:32:21]>> I crossed that line when he said that rape is good sometimes.

[00:32:25]>> Yeah. Before I go on, Farest, do you agree with him that morality is subjective? Like I don't know your individual view.

[00:32:33]>> Yes, I do agree that morality is subjective and I also think that rape is wrong all the time and slavery is wrong all the time and genocide is wrong all the time and that's why I'm a more moral person than you, Daniel.

[00:32:44]>> Also, do you believe on what what makes >> I want one more piece of clarification from you. Do you do animal sacrifices?

[00:32:55]>> No.

[00:32:56]Why?

[00:32:59]>> Uh because those in Hebrews those were done away with. Christ was the ultimate sacrifice.

[00:33:04]>> So then God's moral law does change.

[00:33:07]>> Oh [ __ ] Look at that Bible existing law as part of the ceremonial law. But yeah, no, there's no there's no division.

[00:33:15]There's no division in the law. It's just the law. That's it. It's all you get.

[00:33:21]>> You'll you'll never find a division in the law.

[00:33:24]Do you uh >> do you uh uh do you uh consume shellfish?

[00:33:32]>> Do I what?

[00:33:33]>> Do you consume shellfish?

[00:33:36]>> No, I'm allergic.

[00:33:38]>> Do you follow?

[00:33:40]Yeah.

[00:33:41]>> Do you touch the skin of a dead pig or shave the hair of your the sides of your hair and beard or wear garments of mixed fabrics >> or any of the other [ __ ] things >> that God commanded to not do rather than just saying don't do slavery or rape?

[00:33:58]>> Yes, I I do some of those things. Yes.

[00:34:01]>> Oh, weird.

[00:34:02]>> Do you think you do you think you should do all that? Do you think you should abstain from, I don't know, not eating uh animals that chew the cud but don't have divided hooves? Do you think all those dietary laws you should follow?

[00:34:18]>> Yes. Because those things there are instances of the law, not all of it, but there are instances of the law that were made obsolete with Christ.

[00:34:27]>> And we're you know the Bible. I know you know the Bible. So there are instances in >> I do know the Bible. Well then what that means is that God's perfect law which is moral changes in time. That means God is deciding in his mind that they apply here but not here. They change. That means God is making a decision. If it's dependent on God's mind, then what that means is that it's subjective. And like I I understand I've heard the argument you want to run away from it coming from God's mind because you want them to be objective. But even if it comes from God's nature, you can't define what that even means. What does it even mean to say that they're part of God's nature?

[00:35:13]These are two completely distinct onlogical categories. It's nonsense.

[00:35:19]>> It it would mean that he didn't just arbitrarily decide these things. He >> I didn't say anything about arbitrary.

[00:35:26]>> His character and his nature.

[00:35:27]>> I didn't say anything about arbitrary.

[00:35:31]>> So the reality is you have subjective morals. I have subjective morals. The difference yours comes from a god. Mine comes from common sense, rationality, and empathy. And yours comes from an angry bronze guy uh who like didn't know how women's bodies work. All right.

[00:35:49]Listen. I'm I'm done with this conversation at this point. Um, I've I think we've heard enough from Daniel.

[00:35:55]Daniel, I I I mean this seriously, Daniel, I really hope you watch this video back and think about what this religion has done to your brain because I think I still think deep down inside you don't want to hurt people, but you feel like you have to buy into admitting these things. Otherwise, you're being inconsistent in your worldview. And to be sure, you would be inconsistent in your worldview, but your religion is making you double down on crazy insane commitments. You've bitten way too many [ __ ] bullets. The lead has poisoned your brain at this point.

[00:36:32]>> I'd rather you be [ __ ] morally inconsistent than just [ __ ] morally monstrous, dude.

[00:36:39]Well, when you But when you say morally monstrous, you're talking as if there's some objective moral standard that we're supposed to abide by.

[00:36:48]>> I didn't >> I do have I Yeah. First of all, that's not what we said at all. Also, I do have a superior moral standard than you. And also, I'm not going to sit here and [ __ ] explain morality as somebody who thinks that rape is a good thing sometimes.

[00:36:58]>> Yeah.

[00:36:59]>> Superior according to >> We're We're done.

[00:37:05]>> Yeah.

[00:37:06]all the way off, Daniel.

[00:37:08]>> Gross. Real [ __ ] gross.

[00:37:11]>> Doubling down on sometimes it's okay to murder babies and rape women.

[00:37:14]>> Also, I've heard that [ __ ] before all the time as well. It's like, well, at the end of the, you know, according to who? Cuz at the end of the day, it's just your personal preference. If if my personal preference ends with genocide is bad and rape is bad and slavery is bad, I'm going to need you to take on the burden of proof to tell me why in some situations it's actually just okay to be a [ __ ] monster. And like, yeah, I can sit here and give you reasons why it's not personal preference. I can sit here and give you reasons why it's more objective than you think. I can sit here and give you all this stuff, but I'm not going to [ __ ] waste my life. I've got this brief sliver of life and there's nothing else after this. I'm not going to waste my [ __ ] time explaining how to be a halfway decent person to somebody as [ __ ] disgusting as Daniel. [ __ ] all the way off, dude.

[00:38:04]>> That's wild. Imagine thinking you have the moral high ground when it's sometimes okay to do uh genocides.

[00:38:10]That's why I keep saying Christianity, they get you with like the Jesus loves you. It starts with Jesus loves you, but it ends with get on the [ __ ] train.

[00:38:19]We're going to do