This Argument Traps Every Believer

本站添加: 2026-05-05

[00:00:00]If you you you have doubts whether God exists or not in your head. I know uh but if if God exists, what what what bad effect is it going to have on you or on the world or the universe?

[00:00:13]>> Ah, I like this question. So believing a god exists on its own doesn't have a bad effect, right? I don't I I don't I don't care about that. You can believe a god exists. That's absolutely fine. The thing that has a bad effect are religious systems based on God's existence, based on the assumption of God's existence that claim to tell people how they should live, how other people should live, and what's going to happen to them if they don't believe the correct things. That is where the harm starts coming in. Religious systems that that say that gay people should be punished. Religious systems that stop scientific research because they think that clumps of cells in petri dishes have souls. Religious systems that threaten people with hell for not believing the right thing. Tell them that they deserve to go there. Or tell them that other people who don't believe the right thing should be killed and that those killings are sanctified by the god. There we have a big problem.

[00:01:12]When you sleep and you dream, you dream.

[00:01:18]You see other worlds, other dimensions.

[00:01:22]>> It's It's a dream, dude. It's a dream.

[00:01:24]>> It's a dream.

[00:01:25]>> You might see You might see You might see monsters under your bed, too. That doesn't mean they're there. This is a conversation we have to have with children to explain to them that their dreams aren't real. Do I have to have this with you?

[00:01:38]>> Okay, let's see. If somebody let's say somebody in your family died, okay, and then you see them in a different form, different >> It happens a lot, doesn't it? Yeah.

[00:01:51]>> Right. Yeah, it does happen. It's happened to me. And you see you see see them in a different form, different age.

[00:01:58]>> Yes. Berieved people bereieved people often think about their deceased relatives in their dreams. That's a well understood thing. Doesn't mean the dreams are real.

[00:02:07]>> It came from your mind. That's what dreams are. You can stop dreams, by the way, as well. Certain drugs inhibit the ability to dream. Your dreams happen as the result of the activation of your brain while you're asleep. And sleep scientists understand the different phases of sleep. The bits where you are dreaming, the bits when you're not dreaming, the bits where you're dreaming is likely to be very intense, the bits where it's not going to be, the bits where your body is physically paralyzed while you're dreaming to stop you moving around in response to your dreams, the bits where it's not. There are people who study this stuff all day long. These are not mysteries. They're mundane.

[00:02:45]>> Yeah. I think uh the thing with you is uh your your mindset is already set on something and uh you you're not willing to accept anything else. Uh and uh >> why would you accuse me of being un unreasonably just >> you will not believe it.

[00:03:01]>> You're you're essentially just accusing me of being closed-minded. I'm not close-minded. I just >> You're not close-minded. I think you're open-minded. I think you're thinking and your thinking is good, too. I like your thinking.

[00:03:11]>> But you But you said my mind is set on something else. My mind's not set on something else.

[00:03:15]>> You should be You should be more open more open to if I see something. You should be okay. Uh let's Yeah, let's investigate that. Let's go into that.

[00:03:24]>> I'm completely open. I'm completely open. But people have investigated these things and there's nothing there.

[00:03:33]>> Yeah. If you don't want to see it, there's nothing there. But if you if you only believe that uh what you touch, you you you don't believe anything else. You only believe what you touch, what you see. I I believe in lots of things I can't see. I I I can't see radio waves.

[00:03:47]I believe in those. Can't see Wi-Fi.

[00:03:50]I believe in lots of things I can't see.

[00:03:53]I can't see radiation.

[00:03:55]>> If you believe in Wi-Fi and it exists and it has a design there, how why do you have a hard time believing in God and managing it whole? Because because because we know who designed Wi-Fi. It was people >> because son of God designed the whole universe.

[00:04:09]>> No, that that's the claim. That's the that's the bit that we're trying to establish justification for. You don't get to use that don't get to use the use the conclusion as the reason for believing it.

[00:04:21]Do you?

[00:04:24]>> Yeah. If you want to put it that way.

[00:04:26]>> Yeah. So that would be faulty reasoning and we we won't want to do that. So I'm not close-minded. I'm just I'm just trying to apply the same standards of evidence to people's claims that we all apply to most claims. If somebody says to you someone you know is cheating, you don't just go, "Okay, you want to see the evidence." That's all I'm doing.

[00:04:44]Just being consistent with evidence. And and when I ask for evidence of gods, all I get is nonsense. All I get >> What kind of evidence would convince you?

[00:04:54]>> Well, here's the thing. My favorite question. I'm not entirely sure, but I am open-minded because if there's a if a god exists, I'd like to know about it.

[00:05:02]So, I'm genuinely open-minded about it.

[00:05:03]And you know who would you know who would know what evidence would convince me?

[00:05:08]>> Who who might who might know the answer to the question? What evidence would >> Yeah. The guy who says they're the god.

[00:05:15]>> Who's even smarter than them?

[00:05:18]Who's like the smartest of all?

[00:05:21]>> God.

[00:05:22]>> Mhm. God would know, wouldn't he? What would convince me? Right.

[00:05:27]>> But God says just look at yourself and look around you. Everything existent he made. So what else can he show you?

[00:05:36]>> Well, is that is that it? Is that all that God's capable of doing? Just going look at yourself and look around you.

[00:05:41]That's that that's the extent of his repertoire. At the end of that, he's like I got nothing else. This is the creator of the universe able to stretch out galaxies across the cosmos. But when it comes to providing some evidence, all he can do is go look at yourself. Look at what's around you. And when that doesn't work, he's done. Got nothing else in the can. So then let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question.

[00:06:03]>> Um, you think God is very powerful, right?

[00:06:07]>> Yes.

[00:06:08]>> Okay. Is God powerful enough to come up with some kind of evidence that would persuade me or is he just not is he just not capable of doing it? Of course, he's >> he's powerful enough to do it, right?

[00:06:21]So, he knows exactly what evidence I need. Even if I can't think of it right now, he knows what it would be and he's powerful enough to to to come up with it and do it. Right.

[00:06:34]>> Okay. But in this case, you will have to make up in your head. You need some you need to provide some logical uh something that could happen in your life that uh that you would accept as as >> I don't I don't have to do that. I don't have to do that. I I So I I asked you if God is powerful enough to come up with evidence that he knows would be convincing to me and you said he is powerful enough to do that. Well, has he done it?

[00:07:07]He has done it probably many times over and over. But if he if he if he had come up with evidence hang on just listen to what you just said.

[00:07:16]Hang on. You're you're tripping over your own feet here. Listen. I asked you is God powerful enough to come up with evidence that would definitely convince me. You said he is powerful enough to do it. I asked you has he done it? The only answer to that is no. Of course he hasn't. Because if he had, I'd have been convinced, right? Otherwise, God would have been wrong about thinking the evidence would convince me. So, he clearly hasn't done it. So, God is perfectly happy for me to remain as I am. Clearly, >> no. God God want God wants you to think.

[00:07:48]>> He wants me to think. But, friend, this is this is a discussion that that we that we've had here. This might even be the third time today I've had this exact same discussion. And it always ends up with someone being logically inconsistent with their own position. If God is powerful enough to convince me and he wants me to be convinced, I would be convinced.

[00:08:09]If you're saying, if the claim you're making is that God gave me evidence that's powerful enough to convince me, and I still wasn't convinced, then you're basically accusing God of being incompetent, of thinking that it would convince me and being wrong and of being incapable of providing the thing that we said he can provide. You're making your God inept. you're making him a bit dumb.

[00:08:33]Now, if he's as powerful and knowledgeable as you say, then then he would then he would know exactly what evidence would be necessary to convince me and everyone else here and everyone in the world of his existence. And he could easily do it. And the fact that he hasn't tells you something. It tells you either that he wants me to be a believer or that he's not capable of making me a believer or that he's not there.

[00:09:04]Which of those options is it?

[00:09:06]>> Um I I if that's what you want to believe, I don't know how else to move.

[00:09:10]>> Those are the only options. He either wants me to be a non-believer or he's not capable of making me a believer or he's not there. Those are the only options. There are no other options.

[00:09:23]>> So which one is it?

[00:09:27]>> God is there for sure. Okay.

[00:09:31]>> So then you're then you're stuck with then you're stuck with he wants me to be a non-believer or he just doesn't know how to do it. Which one of those is it?

[00:09:40]>> God knows everything. But if you if you don't want to convince yourself that everything around you is not is not enough evidence. There's no there's even if there's uh 10 more earths or universes, it wouldn't convince you if you don't want to change your mind. And uh >> I think you're I think you're evade it respectfully. You're evading the question I asked you. So we've already taken off the table there is no God. You don't like that one. That leaves us with the other two possibilities. The only ones which are he wants me to be a non-believer or he'd like me to be a believer. He just can't figure out how to make me one. Not powerful enough.

[00:10:17]Which one is it?

[00:10:21]>> As I said, God is powerful enough to do anything. But uh >> well then well then that takes that takes off the table he's not capable of it and the only one you're left with is he wants me to be a non-believer.

[00:10:33]>> Okay. Well then I'm fulfilling God's plan and his wish.

[00:10:38]>> No he he wants people to be >> he's happy with people being non-believers. And that introdu that introduces well we've established that now deductively we've established that now you've taken off the table he doesn't exist and you've taken off the table a limitation on his ability. The only thing that was left is that um my current belief state and the belief state of all non-believers is exactly the one God wants. That's fine. I'm happy to work with that. But then we have a small problem in your religion.

[00:11:06]Is there a penalty for non-belief?

[00:11:10]>> Uh yes most likely. What's the penalty?

[00:11:14]Is it a slap on the wrist? Is it Is it we don't get to go to the ball? Is it What is it? What's the punishment?

[00:11:21]>> God knows. I don't know.

[00:11:22]>> You don't know? Okay. Well, the reason I asked and we're going to tie this up now because we've got quite a few in the queue. We want to get people in. But the the reason I asked is you have done a brilliant job of proving for us deductively that God wants non-believers to not believe. We have established this and the final flourish in this dialectic dance we're doing is that God is now going to as the cherry on the top of the cake, this rancid cake, he's going to punish people for being exactly the way he determined they should be. And if you think that's moral, then you need to take a look inside because that is disgusting.