Poilievre accuses Carney of 'hiding' from public over technical recession | Power & Politics

Added: 2026-06-02

[00:00:00]Conservative leader Pierre Palev says Canadians deserve answers after Statistics Canada reported the economy slipped into a technical recession earlier this year. Polyv is accusing the prime minister of ducking questions on the matter and of ducking responsibility.

[00:00:14]>> Why is it that only Canada after a year of Mark Carney is in a recession today? Well, you could ask him that question, but he won't take any of your questions. He's hiding from you. Mark Carney has been gallivanting around giving speeches filled with dazzling buzzwords that achieve nothing but the worst economy in the G7. Uh so um um unfortunately right now uh all we have is a gigantic liberal recession here at home and no tariff-free access abroad.

[00:00:49]Many economists though are downplaying these latest GDP numbers and today the Bank of Canada warned Canadians not to put too much weight into them. When there is uh a lot going on the economy as there is right now there's things pulling different data uh different parts of the economy in different direction. You're going to get um some noise in the data. two quarters of annualized contraction in GDP does meet one definition of of a recession. But you know simply the fact that you have to put the term technical in front of it sort of tells you that you need to really look past that one indicator. You need to look at employment. You maybe need to look at some of the more leading indicators. I think we need to be careful not to um not to put too much weight uh in any one indicator.

[00:01:37]>> Okay, we're going to start there with a power panel. We've got Van Nott who is an adviser to former Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. Brad Lavine is a former national campaign director for the NDP.

[00:01:46]And Rob Russo is here with me in the studio. He of course is the Canada correspondent for the Economist. We're waiting to connect with former Conservative cabinet minister uh Peter Mccay. We had to start a little bit early because of the delay of the prime minister's event. So we're we're hoping Peter will join us soon. Uh Rob, let's start with you. What what do you make of this argument over this the the political attack from Pierre Palv that this recession that may not be a recession if you listen to the economist is all Mark Cernney's fault? Will Canadians buy that argument?

[00:02:11]>> I think the the um the debate is irrelevant. Let's ask ourselves a political question. This is a political panel. Which government would like to have that news come out uh while they're in government from Statistics Canada? It doesn't matter what stripe. No government is going to like that. Uh it it it's absolutely true that it's grim out there in many parts of the country that people are really hurting. They don't need Statistics Canada to tell them that. Um the other truth, however, is that Canadians seem to have put their trust in Mark Carney to try to resolve that. And up until now, he hasn't been able to do that. Uh he has an opportunity to do that. he has some real obstacles in the way of doing that.

[00:02:59]>> Uh you know we we we still have a problem getting infrastructure built. Uh we we are still uh kind of uh a beehive of uncertainty. When you look at our political uncertainty here here in Albert uh here in Alberta, looming in Quebec, uncertainty over trade there there are huge obstacles and and yet huge opportunities in Canada. We have the we have things underground that everybody wants to buy from us. We're just having trouble getting that out of the ground and getting it to market. So is is is it a recession? Is it not a recession? Irrelevant. It's bad news.

[00:03:38]And nobody should be able to run away from the fact that it's bad news. Are people hurting? They are. Do we have opportunities? Yes. Has the prime minister delivered yet on those opportunities?

[00:03:49]>> To be to be determined. No. Up until now he hasn't. to be determined.

[00:03:53]>> But Brad, on the central attack there, this is Mark Carney's fault.

[00:03:57]>> Will people buy that? Do people think that I I don't I'm not trying to say in any way the economy is in great shape.

[00:04:03]It is at best stagnant and flat, but are people going to blame Mark Carney the way Pierre Polyv is?

[00:04:09]>> U I I don't believe so. And I think that that Paul is is missing um the larger picture that is I I don't think that most Canadians would blame Carney for the troubles that we're having. Now what polyv should be doing the opposition is is attacking you know the absence of a plan uh for things like jobs. So you know to pick up on on on Rob's points about facts the one whether or not the economy in the second quarter went down by 0 point uh 0.1% is irrelevant to the people at home. I think that Rob's spot on because they've already been suffering. If you take a look at something that you can't debate and that's the unemployment number. We have a 6.9% national unemployment rate.

[00:04:49]We lost 18,000 jobs in the month of April. Most of them in manufacturing, in wholesale, retail. These are predominantly full-time jobs, particularly hitting young people, uh 18 to 24. Uh we've got a unemployment rate in the province of Ontario, 7.5%.

[00:05:04]These are real numbers. These are the numbers that I think that that that neighbors and communities actually feel.

[00:05:10]It's not the not the economist's numbers of what a technical recession is. though people don't wouldn't wouldn't would wouldn't benefit if it went up by 0.1% whether it went down 0.1% they don't care they want work they want jobs and they want to know the plan is the attack that that that the opposition should be going after instead of it's all Mark Carney's fault which is I don't think believable because Carney has better numbers more people have faith in Carney to turn the economy around than Paulv or any of the other opposition leaders it should be that his plan isn't working where are the jobs Mr. Carney uh communities are suffering because then people at home would say yes he does have an obligation to bring jobs they haven't come yet when are the jobs coming and create a sense of of of of expectation that the plan should start working soon and after 12 months it hasn't been but don't blame it on him blame his lack of action and the lack of results because that I think people would say that's true the prime minister should be coming through with some numbers on job creation >> okay uh we're going to go to Vonda next but just for those of you who saw the little flash cameos as he's signing on.

[00:06:09]Peter Mccay has joined the panel. So, we're going to get to him right after that. Uh, Vonda, your your thoughts on this. Brad did make the point that, you know, unemployment and jobs are kind of the numbers I think most people actually look at rather than GDP and contraction or not. And reminds me the old expression. When your neighbor loses her job, it's a recession. When you lose your job, it's a depression. And and the job market is going in the wrong direction, too. But your your thoughts in the attack from Pierre Polyv.

[00:06:32]>> I mean, let's think of what makes best use of time. I mean, we talked about how the language doesn't really matter. If you feel you're struggling, that's all that matters, right? So, what are the Canadians going to see? They're going to see someone largely focusing on a debate on what creates these conditions, which I think most people know it is tariffs.

[00:06:52]It is the global economy. It is a straight of horm. and they'll see another leader who has been trying to create deals with new partners, try to find ways to work with provinces to figure out how we get these commodities to market and and build infrastructure.

[00:07:06]And yes, there are there are uh areas where that can be a challenge for the prime minister because not everything is in his purview, >> but you're going to see someone trying to do something about it to try to provide jobs, try to provide economic conditions. And I think largely given that Mark Carney can you can argue is an economist people feel faith in that.

[00:07:25]They feel that oh he's doing the right things and they don't put their finger on exactly what it is but they feel like he's doing the right things to make sure our economy doesn't go down there that we do build jobs not just for T for the future. So tactics wise is it the wisest thing for Mr. Pette to do to make Canadians feel that they that he's going to do something else? I don't think so.

[00:07:44]>> So uh Peter McKay your thoughts? We we we played there off the top of the segment a clip package with uh Pierre Polyv saying that you know Mark Carney is the only leader in the G7 who has driven the economy into a full-blown recession. That's the phrase the conservatives are using not technical recession. Is that the right argument for the opposition to make? Will people buy that argument uh w with the state of the economy as it is right now?

[00:08:09]>> Well, I mean the simple answer, David, would be it depends who you ask. I think there's been a lot of good points registered >> in terms of how this plays out politically, but the bigger issue is all of these combined issues around affordability, uh, this this recession now as it's been labeled and how that's impacting right across the country and and it's worse in some parts of the country. Let's be honest, you know, you and I are from Atlantic Canada. We've we've seen more flatline periods in the economy over a longer period of time. So sometimes it doesn't hit the same or doesn't land the same here. But you know, one of the monsters in the room >> that is is looming and looming large is what is going to happen with this free trade negotiation because that can pile on to the issues that we're seeing happening out there. Now, is this all Mark Carney's fault? No. There's a lot of, you know, combined factors here, including geopolitics and and the cost of oil and and how that is rippling across the economy. But let's not forget one thing that I'm surprised actually that opposition parties haven't pointed out more readily, and that is that Mark Carney was in the back rooms of the Liberal Party for 5 years endorsing a lot of the policies, mainly the anti-resource policies that have contributed significantly. let's be honest to where Canada finds itself now.

[00:09:36]Is he trying to correct that? Certainly.

[00:09:38]All credit to him. But that was not his position when he was in, you know, in the back rooms of the Liberal Party giving policy advice around the environment giving policy advice presumably financial advice given his economic credentials. And so there there is an element of that that does stick to him that he has to wear. He he's changing that and you know hence some of the push back from within his own party.

[00:10:02]He's trying to get us more in the game on resources on defense. But that is a more believable narrative in my view than saying this is all Mark Carney's fault. I think there are some facts here that that can be presented that do leave a certain vulnerability for the prime minister. Rob, um I wonder in pursuing these lines of attack, um you got to be careful as an opposition not to look gleeful at bad economic news, right?

[00:10:29]Like you have to calibrate your criticism of the government without looking like you are being very self-serving in misery, right? You have to watch that. How do you think the conservatives are doing on their calibration there?

[00:10:42]Well, look, um, why did Pierre Palev actually leap in front of Justin Trudeau in in 2023, beginning in 2023? It's because he identified this trend of pain before anybody else did.

[00:10:55]>> And he got on it and owned it.

[00:10:56]>> Yeah. And he talked about inflation before anybody else did. He he he talked about the dangers that inflation posed.

[00:11:03]Um, and and and and was precient and won over a section of workingclass Canadians. uh took them away from both parties. We're in a period, I think, of our of our history, not just in Canada, but in the Western world, where policy is more important than politics. So, to answer your question, >> um when you talk about a liberal recession, uh you look like you're engaging in more politics. Is it is it smart politics? Is and and and is Mr. Pyv on solid ground when he attacks the Liberals for the state of the economy?

[00:11:37]Yes, he is. But it's also an opportunity and I didn't hear him taking advantage of that opportunity this afternoon by emphasizing politics over policy. He needs to talk more about what he would do, what he would do with the issues beeviling Canada, including primarily the issue that Peter raised. What would he do with the hammer that's pulverizing uh industry in Ontario and in Quebec in particular? How would he deal with the creature that is Donald Trump? That's an opportunity for him. He I would suggest that he concentrate more on that than on the politics. You can't avoid the politics. We're we're, you know, we're in an adversarial system, but that's where the opportunity lies for Mr. P.

[00:12:21]>> Yeah. And Dominic Clon, Brad, and Jenna Sharet, they're going to the US tomorrow. Today was the deadline for Jameson Greer to prevent present his list of irritants. You know, it's like festivist day for NAFTA. You know, it's a list of grievances they got put in. Uh but you know uh in talking about the state of the economy purely like on the math every new economic report that comes out from a major bank is kind of downplaying this right so people might be confused with headlines of a technical recession you've got people like Derek Holt at Scotia Bank calling it a wimp session he said in the annals of recession talk there lie meaningful downturns this one he says would be among the wimpiest recessions on record if we were to call it one. So I I don't know if that's the details on that stuff matter in the broader thing uh for a political argument. I mean does the data play a role in this or is it just how people feel and how that is epitomized in the language of the of the politicians?

[00:13:13]>> Well, it's certainly not going to hurt uh the prime minister when the banks are providing a bit of shade for you to say uh you know the numbers don't look good but please they're not as bad as as they could be. Uh that's not bad for an incumbent uh prime minister. Uh I'm sure any prime minister would love the banks to come out and say this is this is not as bad as it could be. Um but it's it's it's not about the numbers and it's not about whether or not it's a light recession or a heavy recession or like you know some of the tough times that we've had uh over the last 20 30 years.

[00:13:43]It's about how people feel about it and it's about I think also the the the the milestones along the way that will test people's patience. So you know after the first year we're still seeing uh that the public by and large um are are supportive or are more supportive of Carney over poly or any of the other uh opposition leaders. That gives them again a little bit more runway than if if other other leaders of the opposition were were more popular. Then the question is what are the milestones? So we've got the obvious the KOSMA uh deadlines approaching. Uh we're going to have other milestones. We got the midterms later in the fall um uh to check to see uh how that will affect the White House or Congress's um response uh to what Trump has been doing uh to this country over the last uh 13 14 months.

[00:14:30]Um so, you know, I think I think a lot of people are going to be standing by, but it's it's it's how long people are patient for, right? So, right now, 12 months in, Paul blames Carney for all the things that are going wrong in this country. I don't think that's where the public moon is. I don't think that he is he is um beyond criticism though uh of uh of of of strong uh opposition critics. Um but nonetheless I think the public is still giving him and and the the problem that Paul Ev is doing today is he's overreaching, right? I think also the the other challenge for the opposition leader you have to kind of meet the moment and it's got to be the right note. It's got to be pitch perfect is is saying everything that's happening bad to this country is all Mark Carney's fault. overreaches and it and most people will tune Pauly about because most people don't buy that. If he focuses on things like jobs, the plan isn't working yet, where are the jobs, when can we expect the jobs, create a sense of anx or anticipation uh among the people for when these policies are are going to do it. And please, David, please, whatever we do, let's not change the name of this show to power and policy because you're going to need a lot smarter people uh than I'm going to have to stand down because I we need smarter folks for that. That was uh what Nahed Mincchi always wanted to call this show. Uh policy and procedure I think is what he wanted to call it when he was a panelist on the show and uh I I would call that ratings poison. Uh look, we're standing by for Prime Minister Mark Carney. He's going to be the next speaker at this event at Holy Blossom Temple in Toronto. Uh we want to take that in its entirety. So I'm going to go to Vand and then Peter for a quick thoughts on this because I think by the time they're done, we might not have time to keep trading water uh until they start. So Van, a quick thoughts from you on what Brad had to say.

[00:16:08]Um, you know, I think he's right. It's about the overreach. It's about a successful opposition leader can capitalize on on people's sentiment. And I think the issue he's going with is the economy is a large issue. Um, what part are you trying to solve? And could you be more tactical with that? What part can it make people feel like at home?

[00:16:26]Whether you're a worker in Windsor, whether you're um someone who's got laid off from a job, like what part will resonate with you when you talk about overreach, liberal recession, and when people who are experts in the field like bank economists say things like technically not, then you look at odds and then you look like you're spinning.

[00:16:43]So that's not a successful uh remedy for any opposition leader. You have to capitalize on what people are feeling and I don't think he's been able to do that with this comment. Peter, it's interesting to go back to Rob's example of how PR poly have surged by identifying the affordability tensions as an issue. Uh the Trudeau government in my view seated the battlefield on that issue to the conservatives didn't put up any kind of a fight on the economy. The Carney government is not making that same mistake. Right. So uh they are at least engaged in that fight on a daily basis politically and rhetorically.

[00:17:15]>> Yeah, I think that's right. Although I on the last point I I don't know that a central banker hiding under the shade or the cover of other bankers is is a good strategy either. I I think the you know the hearts and minds discussion that goes on in the country uh has to be fought on on the you know main street back street the small communities where people are filling up their F-150s to get to work and and they're heading out to the warfs and they're doing uh you know that daily grind and they are feeling it. So, you know, talk of recession is one thing. What you're going to do about it is absolutely the issue. And there is a danger for others to oversimplify. The country's broken.

[00:17:54]That that type of argument I don't think is really going to advance the polling numbers for for anybody. It has to be solutions-based as others have said. And there are other statistics that factor into this in a big way. You know, food banks, the the use of food banks in my little community here in New Glasgow, it's surging. that's happening everywhere across the country. Student debt is another issue. Something that also factors in, David, as you know well, is how the provinces are reacting to all of this. And you have the you know these other peripheral but not unrelated issues of sovereignty and and what uh you know what's going on in Quebec and Alberta potentially that adds to the anxiety. So it's an absolute tight rope for the prime minister to be walking right now. I think uh you know what he can control though is spending and that is I think contributing to some of the problems the anxiety running big deficits federally provinially at the municipal level at the household level is putting Canada in a in a vulnerable position without the ability to generate revenue and that's why you know and we we've spoken at adnauseium about pipelines and the pipeline debate within the country but there is and I would suggest has been for some time a sense of urgency for Canada to be exporting liqufied natural gas into a global market. That is the proverbial lifeline along with critical minerals along with other resources and getting those to big markets particularly in the Asia-Pacific and I I say you know India and Pakistan and other Asia-Pacific countries not just China is is going to be the way forward. So laying out a plan absolutely that has to be very much the priority for pure poly at this point.