This discussion offers a profound look at Martin’s intellectual evolution, proving his mastery of human consciousness started long before Westeros. It is a high-level analysis that successfully connects his early sci-fi roots to the deep thematic complexity of his later work.
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Discussing non-ASOIAF George RR Martin with Preston JacobsAdded:
Hey nerds, what's up? Um, I'm so happy today to be joined by Preston Jacobs.
You guys have been begging me to get Preston on. Uh, ever since I finished reading the rest of George RR Martin's bibliography, they said, you know, we got to hear the opinion of you and Preston again. So, thank you for joining us today, Preston, if you want to introduce yourself and your channel.
>> Oh, no problem. Uh, my name is Preston Jacobs. I have a channel where I primarily talk about um A Song of Ice and Fire and George's other works, though, you know, I also talk about some other things in in the world. I I I stream every Sunday. The the conversations go to almost anything.
But, you know, whatever whatever shows I happen to be watching and and such stuff like that, but it tends to be analysis of A Song of Ice and Fire primarily.
Yeah.
>> Yeah. And we last talked, I think it was like two years ago. Hm. Has it been that long? Geez.
>> Some people are like, "Oh, we've been doing this channel for like 10, 11 years." I'm like, "Oh my god."
Like >> time time is a lie. Um and uh yeah, that was very fun. Um it was kind of funny because like that was my first read through. You're a millionth. I don't know.
>> Yeah. I mean things do change every time. I don't know.
That's what's fun about it is that it's you know George's work is very complicated and ambiguous so that uh you that going back like second reads third reads are always so interesting because you catch something else or you or you rethink something you know perhaps he thought it he perhaps he thought about it perhaps it's in your own head but nonetheless it's it's great to go back and read it again >> 100% and like I think that's why it's going to be so fun to talk about his other work because um you know so many people are really only a familiar with a song of ice and fire and so I think it's like a unique situation to be able to talk deeply about like his entire career.
>> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It's I find it fascinating because you know he starts out as this very um uh I would say very bold emotional sci-fi writer in the 70s and then he transitions to writing a lot of horror and gets involved in Hollywood in in the 80s and then he switches to fantasy song of ice and fire in the '9s. And you know, and there's uh his writing does change um quite a bit. I mean, Hollywood changes changes his writing as well. Um, and he gets better at some things, but he also he kind of lo he kind of loses the edge of the 70s a little bit as he goes on, you know, like there was something really bold and and um scrappy, bitter, chip on your shoulder kind of writing that he had in the 70s that that a little bit of that's a little bit of that's lost over time, you know?
>> I mean, it is funny you say that because I do think you see a lot of bitterness um in his early work. Like that's such a good way to phrase it. Um I wonder if it's like as a person he just evolved to become less bitter about some of those things in his life and so they weren't happier >> in the writing.
>> Like if I I don't usually like to like armchair therapist somebody. So I want to stay away from that. But like we do know things that were happening in his life and sometimes I see it come out in the writing.
one 1,000%.
Um, one of your favorite stories is uh a second second kind of loneliness.
>> Yes.
>> And I remember him writing about a second kind of loneliness in in dream songs. And he says this was the first story he wrote where >> he he was he wondered if he wanted to pe wanted people to read this and know about him. like he was frightened and scared that it was almost too vulnerable and too emotional. Um, and I I do love that because there's a lot of stories um that are very very honest and vulnerable uh from George. I think that's um and so it's it's um I that's why I kind of do like his 70s work a bit because he's so honest and and and yeah, you learn about his life and you're like, "Oh, right. Well, he was writing this story at this time after this bad breakup or this divorce, you know, and you're like, "Oh, that explains things, you know, but there's so much. The reason he's such a good writer, um, and they say, you know, write what you know, but I think one of the the reasons that he was such a good writer is that he does write what he knows and he's not scared to really put himself out there. He bleeds onto his page, you know?" So, >> 100%. And I also think like it's hard to really compare in some ways that early writing to now because he's only doing a song of ice and fire. So it's like if he was releasing other stories like there might be some of that edge still in it.
Um and you know what it it's there's edge in a song of ice and fire in a different way. I think it's just more high level whereas like those early 70s works they're like >> that's him that's like directly from here you know. It's very clear like obviously yes you can get some of his bitterness in Tyrion and some of his insecurity in in Sam and some of his like fearful misogyny um like in Theon and stuff like that but like uh it when it's another character I think you feel more open to write about them you know versus like when it's just like protagonist I well obviously this is the standin for for the author like and um >> yeah and I mean I think It's sometimes more complicated than that. Like I I've read I don't know. Have you done a bibliography read on any of the any other authors?
>> Um of everybody. Yes. Uh I've done it with um David Foster Wallace.
>> Okay.
>> Where I've kind of like read through all of his works. Um and I did it when I was young with Vonagget. Like I read through like a whole bunch of his work. Like a whole bunch of >> That's a great one.
>> Yeah. But even with great writers and even with George, like you know, you you read one piece and one piece by them and you're like, "Oh my god, this person's a genius." And they are geniuses. They are. But then you read like five stories and you're like, "Okay, I understand."
Like they're repeating themselves a little bit. Like that's >> So I was going to say with every bibliography read I've ever done with any author, you see the themes that come up again and again and again.
>> Um Absolutely. And >> some people dislike that. Like I've seen some people say like, "Oh, that means they're a onetrick pony." But for me, it's like we're human and the things we write, we might not even be aware that those are the things that are coming up again and again. It takes someone, I think, sometimes from the outside. And I think it's not necessarily a flaw. I think it's almost a boon. Like you can go to another I know what I'm going to see in George's works now. like I I know the things, you know, >> but I also I also think about I mean I think about it with a lesser lesser extent with human beings like like human beings and their minds. They're sort of like um islands filled with resources.
Some people are small islands. They're only worth a small conversation and then you're done. And then some people are vast continents. But everybody's finite.
Resources are finite. Like nobody has infinite genius. But some people are definitely continents. And so like George is a continent. There's a lot of themes. And I I see him I see him again, you know, where I'm just like, okay, blended consciousness. Yes. Like existentialism in his early works like um uh you know, his his his non-rel his unreligiousness, breakups and feeling lonely, like you know, it's like you see it. Um but there's still a lot of stuff.
That's a lot of stuff to talk about.
Okay. and and they're um uh emotions most people have. So I think that it's easier to revisit those emotions over and over again. Um >> yeah, which is the irony of it, right, is that so much of George's works in the 70s are about his loneliness and him feeling alone. And yet we we all read it and we know it because we felt alone. We felt lonely. And so it's it's an odd thing that like you're feeling communion with this person that feels alone and it's like no you're you're not alone like we all feel that too but he wouldn't >> but all art does is kind of funny right like art about being isolated and alone and this is the only thing tends to bring people together which is the great irony.
>> Yes. Yes.
>> Like you're saying >> but there's so there's so much there's so much pain there's so much pain in his early works.
>> I mean I think there's pain in all the works. I mean, who hasn't read a song of ice and fire and felt deep pain?
>> I mean, that's true. That's true.
>> The entire thing.
>> I think it's just um I mean, one of the most interesting things about a song of ice and fire to me is that it's really his first work with so many perspectives. like other than like Nightflyers um which I think is what he credits as one of his first works with multiple perspectives and then um >> the unfinished uh let's see if I can get the title right black and white >> and red all over >> um he really didn't do a lot with different perspectives which I think is so interesting that his most known work is like so broad and so many perspectives.
Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I think it's his first time writing it, but it's not his first time in in that experience when he was working on Wild Cards. Um, he was only writing from from one perspective usually. Usually he wrote, you know, a turtle chapter. Um, and but the other writers would write different perspectives in the same story. And so, and he was the editor. So I mean I suppose he was he was looking at it like that maybe you know that that he needed wild cards to be thinking about multiple perspectives and multiple voices because if you are taking wild cards and it's it's a dozen authors so it's definitely a dozen voices just by the nature of it being a dozen authors and so he then has to mimic that but doing it himself which is very difficult. Yeah. And I think probably TV I think I mean TV obviously is all over his A Song of Ice and Firework like writing scripts where you're writing from >> Oh yeah.
>> for multiple different actors I'm sure influenced it as well.
>> Yeah. Have you ever seen any of his Beauty and the Beast?
>> No, I have not watched No, I haven't watched any of it. Should I?
>> No. No.
>> Okay.
I feel like just how I generally feel about the scripts he did um don't feel like TV that I probably would generally watch. I don't watch a lot of TV anyway, so I'm just like not a good audience.
>> Waste the time. Uh, but yeah, I know he was showrunner on this show called Beauty and the Beast for three years.
>> Oh, I know. I looked it up.
>> Yeah, there it's it's, you know, it's a different time. It wasn't as exciting.
It's not as well paced. So, that's why I say like, nah, nah, you're fun.
>> Some of those TV some of those TVs are just for their time. I mean, I did I don't think I've watched any of his stuff, but I used to watch like the Twilight Zone and stuff. So, I know like I'm familiar with some of the stuff that he would have >> um written on. But, um I did want to start talking about his novels first because there's so many short stories.
>> Um and his first novel, Dying of the Light, um I know that you like.
>> I do. I do. I do like it a lot. Yeah. I think it has a beautiful, beautiful ending. I mean, it definitely has flaws.
It's got a lot of flaws, but um I I like Dying of the Light quite a bit. I think it it's an interesting um concept about breakups and the obligations that you feel to an ex, somebody that you care for and love. Even though they they they hurt you, you still feel kind of obligated to them. You know, sometimes I, you know, in the weird fantasies you have in your head, you're like, "What happens if this like old ex reached out to me? Like, how would I act?" And and this story is that. Um, and so there's a lot of there's a lot of interesting exploration there. And then he he transitions it to philosophical discussions of existentialism and like what it means like what is your essence and what is morality and stuff like that which um which I think are some great strengths to the story. Um on the downside it meanders and then has a breakneck ending where you're just all of a sudden like the story's over. Um, it's a beautiful ending, but a lot of people would probably not like it because it it ends on a cliffhanger.
Yeah. Like purposeful.
>> Yeah. I mean, I I called it brilliant, but unreadable. Um, which is >> which is how I I qualify things when I think thematically they're incredible, but just like the experience of reading them isn't that great. That, and I think you kind of touched on that. Um, >> yeah, >> I didn't mind the ending. I actually am okay with a cliffhanger ending.
>> Um, that was fine. But um I think just the way the pros was and the way the story does have a weird pace, >> I had a hard time getting into it.
>> But the overtures were amazing. You know what I mean?
>> It's it's funny that you say you view it as kind of looking about a breakup >> because I didn't think that way at all.
>> So it's funny that >> Oh, >> we got such different thematic elements.
Like you saying that you're right. I don't know why I didn't see it that way.
For me, it felt much more like a novel focusing on change, like how people change and um what like cultural differences and like dealing with that was what I focused on.
>> But you're not wrong. So, I'm like now I got to rethink it.
>> Yeah. I mean, it's it's Yeah, it's it's I mean, all that's there. All that's there. I mean, uh, I would say that, um, Jan Vickery is a Rhaegar Targaryen character in there. Like, I think a lot is like in there, um, about, you know, pe people trying to change the world and being unable to change the world. Um, uh, and and and things like that. There there's there's a lot of there's a lot of funny things. There's also a lot of funny things. Like there's an entire chapter where they just go to a restaurant and like eat food and you're you're >> unreasonable.
>> There's an entire there's an entire chapter where he's just like staring at his hand talking about like the weirdness of of existence and it's there there's a lot of and there's like there's a funny chapter where you know I mean not funny but there's an exciting chapter where he's stripped naked and and is hunted but then the distances are all just completely wrong. like it takes him all day to walk one mile and you're like what what are you doing towards like >> well wasn't it like in a jungle I don't know I don't remember but it was >> um yeah it's funny because I do think some of his character work starts there like Jan I loved Jan like I was so all in on some of the characters there interesting to see >> I mean in some ways it's like >> it's a crazy first novel in a lot of ways but it's cool when you do that to see how his craft evolved because He really got so much better at making the theme and plot and characters all kind of harmonize >> where I think are a little unbalanced in Dying of the Light.
>> It's it's I mean he's taking he's taking all of these like sci-fi things and hippie things like >> to to such an extreme and then plopping them all in this one setting that which is only like nolla length. Like you're just like, "Oh, right. Well, it takes place on a on a festival world where the festival has actually been over for years because it's moving away from a sun and so everything is dying and then it's about like space hunters and a guy trying to reform that space hunting society but also there it's polyamorous and his and his girlfriend is in a polyamorous relationship but they made a special like bond with a whisper jewel where they promised to be together and he received a psychic message from her whisper jewel and has to show up and then gets into like a problem where he's insulting this hunter species and you're like it's so much at once once you think about it like oh god >> it's a lot to hang on like 350 pages >> right but it's also >> you know it's funny though cuz like broadly dying of the light even as a title I feel like can describe a lot of thematic elements in all of his work including a song of ice and fire right like too.
>> The sunset of a world that's just everywhere in his work. And to see it so like literal in his first novel is very interesting, >> right? Like the like the the the death of the giants and the poem that that Tormund sings like oh when when the giants are gone, the silence will go on.
Like there there's just all of that kind of feeling of like of of of the dying world and like this feeling of this this melancholy of things dying. Um and you know his his uh and how people react to it like people people people rage against it. People try not to uh try not to die and do crazy things um in that situation, you know. It's not lethargic like the melancholy doesn't lead to people being lethargic. It leads to craziness, you know. So >> yeah. Yeah. And you see it again again like in A Song for Lia. There's like stuff in there and there's stuff in, you know, the whole idea of winter in A Song of Ice and Fire is very dying of the light as well. Um >> dying. Yeah.
>> So much of it. Um yeah, I think it's it's a great first novel, but like I said, I just I understand why people would love it, but also it's just really tough >> for me.
>> I like this. It's a really great first draft.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think and I think we see the rest of it. Um I'm trying to think what >> what's the next one? Is it Wind Haven that comes next or Fever Dream?
>> Uh I think so. Wind Haven, you know, he he wrote Wind Windhaven is kind of a a a patchup because it was three short stories that they eventually put together.
>> Yeah. And like it was one and then two and then they wrote the third one I think much later >> than the first one. So, I'm trying to think which one is that before Feverdream. It probably would be. Yeah, Feverdream is 82. You're right. Wind Haven is next. Yeah.
>> Okay. I thought it was. Um, and so he co-wrote that with Lisa Tuttle. Um, how did how did you feel about Windhaven?
>> Um, it's interesting because there's it's George's writing style completely.
like it's very clear that he's the dominant one editing, but it's such a it's so much more hopeful novel >> where I'm just like, well, that's not George. It's so >> I I don't know. I I actually think the ending is quite melancholy of all three, not the first one, but of like >> of Windhaven as a novel, not a novela. I actually think the ending is quite melancholy. I I think that part always felt like to me because it's not it's it's never 100% triumphant other than that first nolla >> which I think >> am I remembering wrong? I think it originally didn't have as nice of an ending and then either Lisa or someone else was like no it's got to be happier >> probably. I don't know. Like I've never read the stories independently. I've only read them together because you're right. They might have been published originally differently.
>> I think they were because I think the first one, the first nolla won um the Hugo or the Nebula. One of them. The Hugo.
>> Yeah, >> I think so. And then they wrote the second one.
>> And then I think they wrote the third one to bind it up.
>> So if I recall correctly. Um, so I I found the end a bit melancholy. I guess we can't spoil the ending. It's a little >> Yeah, I suppose not, but you know, it's it's like a fast forward to it um to give it that. I think he ends FeverDream kind of the same way where there's a fast forward where >> I actually feel those endings have similar melancholy actually.
>> Yeah. Like the world is doing great thanks to these people, but they're, you know, >> they had to give something up.
>> Yeah, exactly. So the um Windhaven is super interesting because there's so many Ice and Fire references in it like the Eerie and Sorella and and all these things in there. Um I think it's I think it's a neat a neat concept. Um the theme is about you know meritocracy versus um uh you know things being hereditary, you know, so and the benefits of meritocracy.
And I imagine someone like George or and Lisa Tuttle who consider who probably consider themselves great people uh would be would be fans of meritocracy, you know, so and and this world transitioning. Um it's interesting that yeah that they're uh it's an it's a it's a as they say like an interregnum world or a regressed technology world which comes up all all over the place. But it's it's a cute nice I don't know cute but it's a nice it's a nice >> I was about like cute saying comment cute is fighting words for me. I gave this like five stars. This is one of my favorite novels of all time.
>> Okay. Okay. Okay. It's nice.
>> That's where I'm coming from.
>> Yeah.
>> You can't call it cute. You can offend it in any other way. You just can't call it cute.
>> Okay. All right. I take it back. I take it back. But yeah, it's it's it's very nice. But I think it's it's George's I think it's George's writing infused with Lisa Tuttles's like hopefulness.
>> Have you read any other of Lisa Tuttles work? Cuz I haven't and I need to because it's hard for me to see her influences because to me it's such a George book. Like I I have a hard time knowing when it's her because I haven't read her.
>> Um yeah. No, I mean she I've read some of her stuff. Her stuff it's it's not that her writing style is that different from George. Um but they do tend to be you know she she writes more on on feminist themes. Um she wrote a book called the encyclop the encyclopedia of feminism. Um and so this that's why this is like a very important uh like story in that respect that Maris is this strong female character like vying to vying for a meritocracy.
Um, and so the big thing I I I'm I'm when I read the book, I'm always thinking, "Oh god, this is one of the women that broke George's heart." Like that's the thing that really like I'm like, he spent how much time with her like writing after like, you know, their relationship didn't work out or whatever. and he wrote all these other stories about um about their their relationship not working out and yet you know so that that that always sticks with me. I'm like, how did he sit down with his ex and and write a book?
>> And so maybe it helps that I didn't know they were exes when I read Wind Haven.
>> Um because I do generally like to read work without knowing a lot about their lives. Um >> first and now I know because I loved it so much I was going into it and I was like, "Oh, that is awkward." um until it was after.
>> But um I I think there's a lot thematically there. And I think the reason it's sometimes hard for me to see Lisa in it, even though I haven't read her yet, I need to is that Maris feels very much like a George female protagonist to me because >> she does. You're right. Yeah.
>> Just just the way that she is written feels very like the other female characters that I love that he has written. Um and I think it's interesting because you're right. is about someone trying to make a marriage maritis.
I I can never say that word, >> whatever. You know what I'm talking about. Um, you know, based on skill, but I think there's a lot of push back within the novel that Maris is really only doing it for herself.
>> You know what I mean? And I think that's a very interesting push and pull. It's like what I love about George's characters, which is like you can root for them and they can be doing noble things, but there's also a selfishness to her. And I do think that crops up in a lot of his work in a way that I find very satisfying because >> he never really writes the hero that's just a hero and I don't think he ever has. And I think that's so underrated in his work and why it lasts for so long.
>> Right.
I mean, it it it's strange that today when you when you hear people criticize or or or critique any book or movie, they're always talking about on the one hand, they want a protagonist they can relate to, but on the other hand, they they they don't want a a protagonist that that is unlikable, you know? And and the thing is is like a lot of us like have a love I mean, all of us have a lovehate relationship with ourselves, right? So you can like make somebody very real, so real that you start hating them, you know, because that that you can see parts of yourself in them. Um, and so yeah, I don't think, you know, Maris, Maris definitely has a chip on her shoulder and she's definitely like bossy and loud and um keeps going as and it's tenacious and um uh and so yeah, she's she's she's not a perfect character by any means, but you know, she's kind of the she's the character that that world needs. Definitely. definitely bring up a good point because for two things you said because George is very good at writing a true thing which is often our best qualities are also our worst qualities. So like Maris's best qualities and why people need her also sometimes turn into her worst parts and and I think we see that all over his work and it's very true but also people who don't want unlikable protagonists I think scares people writers and they end up writing too perfect of characters that aren't good. This in my opinion happens a lot to female characters. I always sense a fear >> in writers that like if I don't make my female character strong then she's not good and it's like they totally miss the point.
>> Right. Right.
>> On what even makes a good or interesting person and it's generally flaws.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's so in the fandom there's there of of Ice and Fire, there's of course like a massive amount of of cat hate and Sansa hate and obviously most of it's sexism, but you know, and then but people bring up like all of their flaws and all the things they did wrong and you're like, "Yeah, because they're human beings. Of course, of course they're going to have things that they did wrong. Of course they're going to have flaws." Like that's the point because if you if you don't have any flaws then everybody you know complains that this is some sort of Mary Sue or or >> even if or they're just uninteresting like they're just not interesting to read.
>> Yes.
>> It's funny of ice and fire because you have like Tyrion and to be clear I am I love Tyrion. I I love Tyrion but talk about a flawed person. Like don't you know what I mean?
I mean, I mean, of course, and he's he's he's had so much trauma in his life that there's no way he could not be a flawed person and fundamentally broken. Like, it it's, you know, it's it's to the point with Tyrion where you're like, "Oh my gosh." Like, is he salvageable? But then you're like, you see so much of yourself in him and you're like, "Oh god, does that mean I'm like I myself not?"
>> I don't want to spoil anything. I think you and I can say that we haven't done some of the things Tyrion has done.
>> Well, yes. I've never I've never I've never murdered anybody or killed my father or or Yes. Yeah.
>> No, I totally I totally agree with you.
You you do see that. Um so the trauma that Tyrion has gone through either. So >> yes, I think your opinion on Windhaven is probably what's generally um based on good readads the general opinion. Um, you know, we all have that book that we'll just go to bat for and that's Windhaven for me. Um, it was actually the first book of his I read after a song of ice and fire. So, or that wasn't, I should say.
>> Um, a song of ice and fire. So, that's always funny to me. Um, next up we have Feverdream, which I do think you like, right? I like Feverdream a lot for a lot um mainly for the reason that you're discussing that that the character of Sour Billy is so incredible. He's so incredibly dark and and insecure and vicious and you're just like and fearfully we all, you know, see a little like the darkest side of ourselves in Sour Belly. Um, he's a horrible, horrible human being. And, um, I think that I don't know if George has ever written a character as good as Sour Billy. I think he might be the best character that that he's ever >> That is an insane take.
>> Yeah.
>> But I app I I love that for you.
>> Tell me more.
Oh. Um, so, so I also do love the theme of like Sour Billy is of course is of course this poor white trash character that wants to be a vampire. And this is of course the metaphor for the poor white trash person that wants to be a gentlemanly upper upper class person.
and he really thinks that if he jumps through all the hoops and he and he abides by the orders of these vampires that they're going to make him a vampire. But the thing is is like in this, you know, spoiler, he you can't be a vampire in the book. Like it's not it's not a bite become a vampire like like working system. And so like the pathetic like desire like oh I I want to be and the bitterness of like I want to be I want to be rich. I want to be that upper class. I want to be a gentleman.
And him being him being just this like pathetic um uh guy who will just do anything and to get there and and is is is racist because like he thinks it makes him better than than black people and that he can somehow rise up, you know. Um it's it is a perfect uh metaphor for much of America where where you have a whole bunch of disadvantaged people that are incredibly racist because it makes them feel better about who they are who aspire to be billionaires and will sit there and go to bat for billionaires thinking that they're going to be a billionaire one day. And it's like you're never no you're never going to be a billionaire man. Like stop. like and that's sour Billy and that's why I I I love him so much he's so dark and so horrible and and I will say that at the climax of the story when you think Sour Billy is dead and then you get another Sour Billy POV chapter I was just like oh my god like for a moment and this was the brilliance of the book for a moment I was like oh my god is he gonna become a vampire Wait, is it actually like possible that he's going to become a vampire >> for that moment? And then you're like, "Oh I just fell for Sour Billy's thing." For a moment, I was Sour Billy.
Like, you know, you've been told it's impossible to become a vampire, but then just for a moment, you're like, but maybe there's a chance you're like, "No, >> you know, I never um thought of that metaphor for Sour Billy in those terms."
I think it's a really good point. I was I never thought he was gonna be a vampire. I was just annoyed he was still alive. Um I was like so in I I actually legitimately when you said one of his best characters I thought you were gonna say Abner Marsh because for me Abner Marsh is such a weird main character for a novel like Feverdream and I just loved it.
>> She is weird and zany. Um he feel you know I feel like it's just George R.
Martin though. Like I'm just like that's just George cuz he looks like George.
>> I'm not giving him enough credit. I I don't feel like it is a selfinsert. I I think um what what is because otherwise we'd see Abner too much and I think he's different from almost any other character George has written um in that uh I always think it's interesting when authors can write very charismatic characters without the typical charismatic traits. Um because when I was reading it, I couldn't help but just be like, I would want to be friends with Abner Marsh. Like this is a loyal person. This is a person who sticks to his guns. Um you know, and it's slowly because at first when you meet him, you're like, who is this dude who's like obsessed with steamboats? I know way too much about steamboats now. Um read Feverdream if you want to know about steamboats. Um, >> and just how his relationship develops.
Um, and I also just love a good friendship. This is a story about unique friendships, too.
>> Good bromance in that one. Yeah, >> good bromance. And I don't think there's enough friendship tales. And I certainly don't think there's enough like really good male friendship tales. And um, that's what stuck out to me the most about Feverdream is just like what a weird vampire novel it is. Not like I I'm so well read in vampire novels, but generally they go very differently.
>> Um I I thought it was fantastic.
>> Yeah. And I do appreciate like the thematic element of it in that, you know, vampires are this standin for for race relations in America. And Abner Marsh his, you know, his transition to the end of the book is is following America's transition. like at the beginning like he's just like well you know he's he's more of a a man missionist like he doesn't he slaveryy's there but he doesn't really care about outlawing it. He's just like he's going to be nice to the black people he knows and he's going to mind his own business and then by the end of the story he's like no slavery is wrong. Like that's and I I do love that he makes that transition and he and he makes it through the like understanding the the vampire metaphor of it all and everything. So, um, >> yeah, and there's also a lot of like, uh, thematic elements of choice versus birth, which I think goes into that, which you see a lot. I mean, I think that was a lot on Wind Haven, too, in a very different way. Um, that's interesting.
>> Some people criticize George for not writing enough about race, and I'm like, he wrote an entire novel about it. Like, it's a whole novel about it. Like, it's it's um, >> which which books have they criticized for that? Like A Song of Ice and Fire?
the song and fire like oh he doesn't write that much about race and it's like he he wrote he wrote I mean nightflyers is about race too but like it's it's he wrote an entire book about it he wrote an entire book about like slavery and racism why why people are racist and and >> what are the criticisms coming for a song of ice and fire though like in what way like what what relations do they feel like don't delve into that sort of thing just in general >> I think I think when I've heard the criticism and I and I and it's like Well, when when we go to Esos, George plays into all of the foreigner tropes that are there. Um, you know, uh, uating Dothraki savages, the um, Slavers Bay with their eating dogs and and and uh, loving pitfighting and things like this.
Every every place they go, every place where she meets brownskinned foreign people, they're savages. I think people that read that are missing the point because each of the societies you see once you see it you're like oh that's actually the exact thing as Westeros but um he's purposely making them seem savage as a statement about Westeros. So like when the white person sees the brown savage he's calling himself savage ironically because he just but he's too stupid to like recognize that. Like I think that's what George is saying with that. But I think that's the the criticism people have is that when people go around ESOS, it's just savage savage uh culture after savage culture after savage culture.
>> Oh, that's so interesting because I don't actually see the Dothraki as savage. Um but I think it's also because George, >> he writes from a perspective. So we only ever see that through Danny's eyes, right? So you're never going to really get an un >> mitigated. Actually, they should just read Dying of the Light because I actually feel like Dine of the Light deals with a lot of that because like our main character >> feels like these other people are so savage, but through the the course of the novel you realize it's just like totally different cultural and that a lot of things he does is considered savage to them.
>> Yeah.
>> Um >> which reminds me how much I love the the reveal of at the end of Dying of the Light of Brett and Braiths like why he was hunting him and it's just it's it's a very beautiful line. And I don't know if I want to spoil it, but the spoil >> don't spoil it. I feel like too many people won't have read it and so they need to convince one of the most beautiful things. You're going he he's getting hunted by this guy Brett Braith who who looks like the Hound. He has half of his face burned and you think he's going he's getting hunted for one reason and then at the end you're like, "Oh, of course. Oh, >> Best part of the whole novel."
>> Yeah, it is.
>> It almost made me increase its score, but not >> it's a tearjerker scene.
Fantastic.
Um, oh, that's so interesting. I didn't know that that was a criticism because I'm not really um deep in that. So, that's that's interesting. Um, and then his last novel before a song of Fire official novel was Armageddon Rag.
>> That's right.
>> Which, how did you feel about Armageddon Rag?
>> I think it's a big miss. I think it's a big miss for um I think the primary reason and what's interesting about about the book is that like growing up I was really into punk rock and I was really into music um and I was really into Lord of the Rings you know like if anyone should understand this book and where George is coming from it would be me but it's so specific um and so I think George's problem was is that he was feeling that the music that he listen to growing up defined the entire generation. And I don't think one he was accurate in saying that because I think people have very diverse music tastes. And so when you're sitting there being like, "Oh yeah, we used to sit around singing Peter Paul and Mary."
It's like, yeah, lots of people love Peter Paul and Mary, but a lot of people listen to different music. And then once you go beyond that generation, yeah, no one cares about Peter Paul and Mary. I'm sorry. Like >> I love Peter Paul and Mary. So, I grew up listening to Peter Paul and Mary. So, not all of us, but you're right. Like most people don't know. I try to force my kids to listen to Lemon Tree and they don't care. So, um yeah, I I think it was similar like I am not a person like super connected to music. So, for me, that wasn't a boon of the novel. Um I think oddly cuz you said Winaven was too. I think Armageddon rag ended too happy. like it bothered me. It felt like the ending was so overly sweet.
>> Yes.
>> That it didn't make sense to me for the rest of his work.
>> It it also um ends incredibly fast like Dying of the Light. Well, you know, Fever Dream also ends incredibly fast, but I I which which I don't think very like bodess well for for us like Fire, you know.
>> I think it bodess very well. It means that two novels could wrap it up.
>> Oh, in that respect. Yeah, I guess.
But, you know, you're you're just you're you're kind of going along in this book and then all of a sudden it's over, right? That's Dying Light. That's Feverd Dream and that is also Armageddon Rag and nothing's really explained like where the prophecies are coming from.
Um, >> it doesn't bother me. Whatever. It's magic.
>> Yeah, it's magic. You know, it's all the the ghosts of Janice Joplin appear and, you know, it's all there. I mean, I understand his metaphor about what consciousness is. Like, is consciousness a ghost? Is consciousness what people remember? Um, you've never seen the show, but the sh the Game of Thrones, but the show ends with Tyrion being like, "Nothing beats a great story." And that's what that's what'll stop death.
Like, nothing beats a great story. Like, oh, okay, I get it. Like, you know, when we're remembered, it's Star Trek 2.
Like, if as long as you remember Spock, he continues to live forever. That that's Armageddon, right, too, right?
like, "Oh, as long as we remember the music, like it's like they're ghosts and they'll live forever." Yeah. Yeah, I get it. You know?
>> Yeah. And it just doesn't um I for me it was also just too steeped in nostalgia um in a way that doesn't feel accessible.
>> Um you know, I think nostalgia, I don't mean like the cheap nostalgia we're getting now. It wasn't like that, but it it veered into that territory.
um you know where it was like I read it and thought >> well maybe it's just because I'm too young but then it's like people didn't like it at the time either so like I just don't think it was nostalgia that worked >> and I kind of feel like it it's it's ve you have to be it has to be very specific like it is true that there was a folksy hippie group of people that were also into Lord of the Rings and stuff like that in the in the late 60s early 70s you know that's that's fine and then but he's writing about this in ' 83 three. Uh, who's the audience? It's it's a very specific audience of of and because he's writing what he knows. He's writing the music he loves. His favorite musician is Chris Kristofferson. Um, and you know, he's going to keep writing about Chris Kristofferson, but like but not everybody not everybody's into Christopherson. Christophersonson, who who was big, he's one of those people that isn't remembered as much as other musicians of that time period. He's now known more for his acting than he than he is for his music. Even though his music's his music's really good, but like you compare it to say Johnny Cash, >> people remember Johnny Cash, but they don't remember Christopher as well, you know? So, >> I mean, I don't even think I mean I don't care about steamboats and yet I love Feverdream. Like I think there is a way for an author to bring you into things that you don't relate to or care about um and and make it work. But >> yeah, >> for whatever reason it didn't. Like I don't think like I' I've met so few people who really love Armageddon rag that it's like whatever I I'm not a writer so I don't know what that that magic pill is that threads the needle.
But I think you're right in the end it ended up feeling too specific. Even though I think sometimes that can work, it just it didn't, >> you know, >> which is odd because it's also like, you know, I just went into how weird and odd um Dying of the Light was as a setting and it's like, why don't we choose more realistic settings? Why don't we consider more realistic settings as as foreign and interesting and exotic?
like, you know, why didn't I want to read about this? A music journalist who is interviewing uh a punk band based on a resurrected punk band and he goes through remembering his hippie music. Like, why doesn't that connect to me in the same way as going to a festival, the dying festival planet on the edge of the galaxy? I don't know. Um but yeah, it's for some reason just didn't connect, you know.
>> Yeah, and I a lot of people have that.
So, I I don't I can't figure out why it is. And I but I do think some of it is that I think that book has more overt talking about its own themes.
Like the journalist would constantly just say things like, "Well, I guess that's why XYZ." And I >> Yeah. All the other characters would know what he's talking about. like all the other characters got his references which which is also kind of weird you know >> because I I can tell you about music in the 90s and you would probably be like I don't know what you're saying.
>> Yeah. And I listen to my own 90s stuff.
You know what I mean? Like >> you know like you know >> but but it shouldn't matter is what I'm saying. It shouldn't matter because like you just said, we can go to this festival world on a dying planet and and some of the other stuff that we've loved. You know, A Song for Lia has all sorts of goofy wacky things, >> but for some reason, I feel like Armageddon Rag didn't hit the right emotional beats >> to connect with its audience. I guess that's just ultimately what it was.
>> Yeah. And you know what, the protagonist just kind of felt when, you know, when we're talking about Abner Marsh and Sour Billy and how colorful both characters are. Um, the protagonist of D of Armageddon rag just didn't feel colorful.
>> No, they're very unmemorable. Like I I it's hard for me to even say what a character trait, >> right? Like I can at least be like, well, Durk is a is a heartbroken sad sack, you know? Like at least there's that about him. Um, what what what can you say like the one thing that you could say about about the emotional state of of the of the protagonist of Armageddon who I I can't even I can't even remember his name. Like >> me neither. I'm so glad you said that because it's like I read that one because I read them in well no but I read that one later than the other ones and I can remember so many details about the other book and Armageddon rag I'm just like what's the main character's name? I don't know.
>> Right. I mean, I vaguely remember that there's an albino.
>> I just the only thing I really remember is that like I would wear a Naz Ghoul band t-shirt. Like the concept of that is great. I need someone to design that.
But that was like the first two chapters I was all into it. I was like, "Oh yeah, a metal band based on the Nazoulool."
Like great. And then after two chapters it was like straight downhill, >> you know? Great concept. I guess I think it's just execution. There's also a funny thing about Armageddon rag in that one of the the things that I think is very funny about Lord of the Rings is that all of a sudden an entire page will be dedicated to people singing and it's honestly my least favorite part of Lord of the Rings. Like I'm just >> People are so wrong. People hate the singing. It's a part of it.
>> I know. I understand. I understand. But like they purposely didn't put that in in the in the uh in the movie and all sorts of stuff. the same he does the same thing in Armageddon as a point like he's he's trying to make it like Lord of the Rings so he puts in these like them singing songs but it's like I have no melody to know what this sounds you're just singing lyrics you're just sing so >> I think like cuz I am a defender of the Lord of the Rings songs but I similarly did not like them in here and I think it is because like >> when it's in Lord of the Rings you're like it's a folksy song and it's like whatever but like I want to know what a metal song sounds like do you know what I Like it's it's very different. One's more like poetry. And I totally agree.
You're like, "These have no meaning to me. I can't really hear the song."
>> Yes.
>> I don't know.
>> Yes.
>> Maybe someone should try to record them.
But can you imagine? I think it's interesting that he said that critics loved Armageddon rag.
>> That's so interesting to me. And then it was a commercial failure.
Um, there's probably some stuff to be said there about what critics look for.
>> What does he mean critics as in two two people? Critics.
>> Well, he said that all of his editors and everything thought it was going to sell very well in Dream Songs, you know, and that the early critical reception was really high. I don't know if it's changed now. I didn't go, you know, look it up. And honestly, >> the art of like the actual book critic is dying quite a bit.
>> Sure. Absolutely.
>> I mean, it's not really there. it it's us which like we could discuss all day about like the negatives and positives of like an actual critic dying but um at the time I feel like it was still very critic focused so >> right I mean there's so many things in there like oh he's a he's a music journalist you're like well those don't exist either like everything is like >> not anymore >> right >> um yeah that's I'm glad we both agree on that one I have a hard time understanding people who love that one versus like loving dying of the light I get it like I I actually can get it. But um yeah, not that one. Um so before we filmed for everyone else out there, me and Preston exchanged our five favorite and least favorite of Georgia's short stories because there's just too many for us to >> to really talk about. Um, so we only shared one in the two list like in our f five favorites and five f there was only one that um crossed over.
>> I guess positively we did have one crossover in your favorites and in my least favorite.
>> Yes.
>> Or is there two or is it only one? Wait, let me look at this. Oh, it's two.
>> I like Oh, this is good.
>> All of your favorites I think are great choices. But the the is the crossover.
It's Sand Kings, right?
>> It's Sand Kings. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Which deserves to be on both of our lists.
>> It >> It was my number one and I think it's your number three.
>> Yeah. Um I do love Sam Kings. I mean it won the I I the first time I read it, I didn't like it that much. I don't think I understood it the first time I read it and then the second time through um it connected with me more. Um I I mean I I love just the the like one it's take away all the themes. It's it's a it's a really fun horror movie horror story where there's really incredible descriptions and and the main character is >> insane and fun because he's so insane and crazy and horrible in a in a in a similar sense of of say like why Victor Greyjoy chapters are so fun because the person's just bonkers, right?
>> Seriously like that like seriously is one of my favorite POVs because you just >> what's going to happen? You don't know, >> right? just like what bad decision is she gonna make, you know? So, but that's how Simon Crest came off and and and then once you get into the the okay, what do the Sand Kings represent? Um what does Simon represent?
And it it's it's not exactly subtle. I mean, the the they tell you at the end of the story that like he is God and the Sand Kings represent civilization.
And you know, there's there's interesting aspects to it. And then you can you can kind of read into what what the ending means and what the different colored factions mean. Um my interpretation of it was um religion and God is very important to inspire early society and that um eventually societies should move beyond the the the religion.
But in the case of it's literally the whites, the the the the white society, western society, >> they they they've taken they've taken they've now decided to use God for themselves for their own like weird corrupt ends, which is what hap like the you know because Simon is taken over telepathically by the the white m. Um, and I thought that was a very interesting kind of idea, like criticism of um, of Western society. And keep in mind, like when it's written, like when it's written, the Chinese and the Soviets um are like abandoning religion, right? And so he has a red faction and a black faction in in his in his story.
And I think the orange faction probably represents the third world, lesser developed countries or something. And that I think this is the statement he's making that that um that you're that he feel that George feels like society, you know, through its normal development and you read most sci-fi at the time like mo like everybody everybody's pretty secular of the future. Um but his his strange statement that like we're not on that path like that western society is actually not on the normal path and that we're that people are using religion um rather than you know uh religion like at the beginning of the story like you know they they they they build and they they advance for the worship and of of God but then he is then it switches and Simon God becomes a tool of man is is is what I how I feel that the the interpretation, you know, that's what I >> Yeah. I mean, I I didn't interpret it as black and white. I definitely obviously it's very religious like in it's it's one of his most interesting I think religious uh discussions. Um I I saw it much more um fluid. Like I think your reading of it is definitely could be in there. I think it's interesting that he contrasted um I forget the woman's name who sells him the bugs but or >> Yeah. Woe and shade. Wo.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz her civilization thrives under her godhood >> and and nothing happens there. And then we have this other god who uh you know it go breaks bad because of his lack of benevolence and his uh complex of wanting entertainment. And so it also seemed like maybe an exploration of just how different religions see God is I mean that's a constant discussion in religion like is it a benevolent God? Is it the God of the Old Testament that's like a vengeful smiteful God and what does that mean? That was the lens I read a lot of it through. Like and even if you take away the religious undertones, even just like leadership and um politics, I think there's a lot that you could kind of see in there. Um, so like I definitely see your read of it and I think there's >> I see you saying like I remember that when the when the orange faction portray him as a sort of goofy god, he's like insulted, but like when when the whites like see him as this like fierce, vengeful like um god, they they they act in a certain way, you know what I mean?
>> Yeah. making your how people reflect your countenance back at you and how your actions have changed. That also like is another theme that as we've said is in his work a lot like just self-esteem and view of the self. And I think there's a lot there with Simon and like how his treatment of the bugs and how the different factions as you said view him differently >> based on that. Like and like what you said, I also just highly enjoyed it as a horror story without any of that. Like >> Yes. Absolutely.
>> Yeah. It's it's really his best in in in his early work of of writing that insane protagonist. Um which is gonna, you know, be incredible for him later on when he's writing a Cersian Victorian.
Yeah. Is this is the first time he really like explores that. Yeah. and and Sam Kings will be important for our discussion later because it is horror but it's very um psychological horror >> and um we'll be talking a lot more of his body horror later and maybe there'll be a theme and how I feel about body horror. Um but so that was that was my number one favorite but uh your number one favorite was the glass flower. Yes.
>> And I'd love to hear why you love that one because for me it was neither good nor bad. It it it fell right kind of in the middle of my rankings.
Glass. The glass flower. Yeah, glass flower is I believe it's the greatest thing I've ever read by him. I love it that much. It's >> that's okay.
>> It's a beautiful story.
>> I call it cute because that's what you call >> it's a cute story.
>> There's I mean there's the cute little battle at the end where they're mind swapping and all of that.
Um, what what I love about So, George, one of his go-to sci-fi topics is consciousness and blended consciousness.
What is consciousness?
>> Um, are we are we just memories? Um, or is there something more? And so, you know, is there is there something that we would that somebody would call a soul or consciousness on top of these memories? And how do you how do you uh explain that? And and glass flower is a brilliant exploration that it goes it goes even a step beyond that that there's something else that consciousness in the human experience relies on forgetting and dying. And without those two things fundamentally the human experience isn't there. And so what I love about this, it's it's it's about a person's memories who get uploaded into a cyborg. And you'd think, oh, the person gets to live forever as a cyborg. Well, well, hold on a second. If you were if your brain were really like a cyborg, like little things like the fact that we have dim memories of of being four or the fact that like when you're with your children, you get a little feeling of something being familiar like way in your past that you can't quite put a finger on or you suddenly remember something. You're like, "Oh, right. When I was six, this and this happened to me." you have a certain smell that evokes something strange. Um, that wouldn't exist in anyone that that uploaded their brain into a computer.
You would have absolute recall of everything. And so these little things like a piece of trauma, a bad breakup, an embarrassment when you're 12, those would no longer stick out like they do as thorns in in in the rest of us.
they'd just be one memory among every other memory of you going to the bathroom when you were when you were 17.
Like that would be they would be equal.
And the idea that like you need forgetfulness, you need to you need to have your memories die in order to uh in order to have the human experience. But even an android, even the the cyborg craves that. He craves that feeling of becoming a human. And meanwhile, you know, Sirene, um, you know, she's a she's a horribly flawed, horrible person. like she wants um immortality and how like in his pros after they do the switch his pros changes to her saying things like you know I think she says something like there's a she sees a dragonfly and her eyes telescope in to observe it and you're like oh god like her h like the beauty of her is disappearing as she's becoming as she's becoming uh more like a computer and and the med you know, and so we have this metaphor of the glass flower. Like, yes, the glass flower will last forever, but it has no, as I say, no no pollen or scent um like comes from it. There's no beauty. There's no essence to it. Uh I think it's it's the whole thing is written beautifully. Um I think it came out in ' 89. It's one of his it's one of his later stories. It's um I think it's the height of his exploration of what consciousness is on a sci-fi level. It's very mindbending because you sit there being like, but what is consciousness?
Like what am you're sitting there going, well, what am I? What am I? On this like fundamental level, you're tying yourself in knots wondering what we are. Um, and meanwhile, his his pros is height height like Catalyn Stark level beauty of of pros. Um, and it's just really also very sad and and um um melancholy, but also there's this big battle. There's this big mind swapping battle. It's like fun as So like that's why just like it's it's it's very ice and fire if you think about it because there's all this like action and adventure that's really fun. Like the plot of the story is that people are have having a mind swapping battle to to swap consciousness from different bodies and you're like what's going to happen in that and then also this just very deep philosophical and sci-fi explanation of what consciousness is and just beautiful writing. So that's my that's my uh that's my my pitch for for Glass Flower.
>> Yeah, maybe I need to reread it again. I you make me want to like it. I love everything you said about it. It's like maybe maybe if I had gotten that. It's funny though cuz hearing you talk is like all those things you said is what I got out of for a single yesterday which is my fifth favorite.
>> So I feel like maybe just two different of his stories >> had that same effect cuz like for me I thought deeply about memory and consciousness and what it means to remember and forget in for a single yesterday.
>> Yeah. So, I wonder if I reread The Glass Flower and connect it to those emotions um if I would feel differently about it.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
you know, it's it's but I I you know, I do think that you know, these interpretations can also um reflect on like uh people's faith quite a bit, you know, like you know, if you if I mean fundamentally if you believe in souls, like it's a different it's a different question versus like somebody that does like doesn't necessarily believe in souls, you know, and things like that.
Well, and and that's why um short stories I think are so underrated in terms of authors because it also is a lot of like our life experience that we bring to it. Like you're going to read things very differently. Like I always say cuz I'm as you know a huge Catelyn Stark defender, but I always say like I read Catelyn Stark in my 30s when I had children and I'm not sure me reading Catelyn Stark at like 18, let's say, that I would feel near as charitable to her. So, I do think it's it's funny. Um, you know, any of a short story could hit you very differently depending on what you're thinking about at any given moment in time.
>> Absolutely. And where you are in your life and things like that. Um, but uh yeah. Yeah, it's uh Yeah, I mean I I I also I mean beyond that as well, it's it's it's the last story in the Thousand Worlds universe.
And it does also toss around a lot of the Thousand Worlds lore that was in the background that you never understood that he finally explains like who the was Cleronomous? Oh, now we know.
Who was Peter Northstar? Like just all this stuff. Who are Tommo and Wahberg?
Like it's these little things that are that are peppered through the rest of the the thousand worlds that he finally he finally like explains like no this is this was the universe that that we were that we were in and now I'll never write about it again. So >> you know never say never. Um I mean we can probably never write Avalon, right?
But um >> um yeah, and it's also interesting how like, you know, that's a short story and how we talked about too much was hung on Dying of the Light, but you just talked a lot about what was hung on the glass flower and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Like there was a lot of disperate stuff there that still really worked for you.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And that you're you're right that had it been longer, maybe it would have been different like had this had somebody drawn it out. But I think that George R. Martin is is a phenomenal uh short story writer because he's so good at beginnings and he's so good at endings and um it's I I you know when when his chapters that he writes like short stories tend to be very strong versus um I mean not that he doesn't have strong chapters but I think he writes different types of chapters. There's there's chapters where he's just writing and then he chops them up and then there's chapters where he's thinking about it as a short story and and it begins and concludes in a very similar fashion and and there's there's closure to it. Um and I think he's he's a short I think he's a short story writer still like in his heart, you know. So >> I see it. I mean, and you also see like people I know it's fantasy, but like after reading all of his short stories that are horror and sci-fi as well, I see so much of that influence in A Song of Ice and Fire. It's like, yes, A Song of Ice and Fire fantasy, but like he borrows so much from horror and sci-fi.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> When you really step back, >> I mean, he has a an essay that's famous in the fandom called The Furniture Rules, which >> Oh, I love this. It's it's all furniture. If you're writing a high fantasy, you know, it's set in I love that quote. I wrote it. I I wrote it down.
>> Yeah. I mean, he makes the point that like um when people talk about when people talk about like aura and mana and building it up like as some sort of like energy, that's that's really a sci-fi concept. And while time travel is the most fantastical concept. So why is time travel story sci-fi, but people like building up aura and ma as like a magic is is fantasy, you know, like that's >> furniture.
>> Yeah, exactly.
>> All of it. Um, wow. We It's a time is flying by. Um, I want to talk about a couple. I want to talk about Song for Lia for sure because that's your second favorite. Um, it does not make my list.
Although I did like it. It wasn't It wasn't that I disliked it, but I think that's one of the most famous short stories in the fandom other than Sand Kings.
>> It is. I mean, Song for Song for Lia, which Lyanna Stark is named after. Um, and Rob in is the protagonist of of of the story. Um it takes the I there is a um somewhat famous thought experime experiment of like if there were a machine a box that you could walk into and you would be happy and you would live forever. You would live forever and be happy for forever. Would you walk into that box? Um, and there's something odd about the thought experiment because at the same time time when when put like that it's it's kind of creepy like uh I don't know if I'd walk into that box, right? But of course like the there it's just describing the idea of afterlife in most religions, right? That afterlife is a place that you're going to be happy forever, right?
Um, and so song for it's what's bold about a song for Leah is that it takes it a step further because it's one thing to say like abstractly, oh yeah, I'm I'm going to be happy forever.
Like, but you're really delving into like what is happiness in a song for Leah? And and when you think about being in love, like the the absolute bliss of of say being in love or like the absolute bliss of like looking down on your on your child as as as you're feeding him or something and and that like feeling you have in your heart of of like oh god like this overwhelming like bliss that you have, you know, of you know, whatever lying in bed on a Sunday all day with a with a with a lover or something, you know, those feelings um dayto-day sometimes we forget about how intense they are. And Song for Leah, it really explores how intense the love between Rob and Lyanna are um is because they're both psychics.
They're both telepaths. So, it's not even it's not even regular love. They like read each other's minds. They're connected on this like fundamental level that's so strong. and she and she leaves him for for the the the the you know for the Greca you know which is the standin for heaven and and and everything and she's so happy um being in love with a billion people forever and how he does not choose to join her um and the reasons he has for not choosing to join her. And so it's it's um it's it's really f it's a fascinating I mean it's a great expansion of that thought experiment of walking into the of and it's just it's just beautiful.
You you feel the heartbreak you feel the love you you get into the uh the religion of it like what what is what's uh what do we seek what do we seek in afterlife you know or do we do we do we seek afterlife at all that's the that's what I got out of it.
>> Yeah. And I think for me, this is one of the stories that I just needed to be longer. I felt like her change of heart was very sudden, and I wanted more of the philosophical reasons that she would make those decisions. Um, but yeah, I the thought the theatic element of it was my favorite part. I I guess it was for me an execution thing. I was like, well, I need more from these characters.
Like, why do they think what they think?
And and why are they making these decisions? And maybe that's my own thing because like >> I don't want to walk in a box and be happy forever. Like that is not something that sounds enjoyable to me at all.
>> Yeah. Like I I >> I I I can't I can't think about like I can't see that. And so maybe it's also again my own thing about like Lia's decision. I'm just I'm like where I I need I I wanted to understand her thought process. It's so foreign to me.
I I couldn't maybe get there. Maybe that's my own fault.
>> Yeah. I mean, well, I I think it's the that's the question that the the um the the the the agnostic or atheist or doubter would would ask the the the the religious, you know, is that um you know, because the things are, you know, uh I mean, at least, you know, Christianity is marked as as as love, you know, oh, you're you're being loved by God, you're being loved by Jesus, and and you'll be with him, and you'll be with all of your friends and family. for forever once I was >> but but but Christianity is also marked as as trial that that sacrifice and and trial and uh you know those things bring happiness and worth. So the idea of walking into a box and being happy forever without trial or sacrifice which is like a a key tenant of Christianity could technically be saying that it's not not that at all and that >> giving it up is is not the Christian experience in some ways. Sure. I mean, I I think I think he's talking about like postdeath what it's supposed to be like the meek shall inherit the earth in heaven.
>> Once I was um I was at a market and um in I was in Tanzania and I remember this woman was trying to sell me various things and she she had a bunch of um Christian paraphernalia and she she was trying to sell me a a crafted wood carved cross and I was like, "Oh, no thanks. I'm not very I'm not very religious. And she goes she goes, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You must you must like accept Jesus like right here and now. You don't understand. When we'll be in when we will be when that way when you you die, you'll be you'll be in heaven and we will we will all be singing all day. It'll be like church."
I mean, the funny thing is that she described it.
>> You're like, "That's not the box I want to walk into. Is that what you were thinking?
church in Tanzania was like three hours, three or four hours of people singing and and it was like the happiest part of her week and I understand you know like things she truly loved it and that was what she thought h that's what she thought h heaven was was like singing singing singing forever you know um so >> wasn't that in song for Leia wasn't there like singing or am I confusing with another story >> singing yeah >> okay I was like isn't that okay it's like a direct parallel >> yeah So, but yeah, I mean, but the thing is even when we do that thought experiment, like we're not when we say, "Oh, yeah, I'll be happy forever." Well, what do you mean happy? You know, so what do you mean h? You know, but I think it's just Yeah, that that being But I do admit, you're right that like they do say that they're really in love, but >> do we do we really explore the love of of Lyanna and Rob very much? We certainly explore his feeling of loss and his feeling of sadness, but I don't know if we really explore their feeling of love so much.
>> Yeah. And in fairness, like it's a short story. It's just one of his short stories that I felt like actually could have been like a short novel. There was enough there to explore that I wish I had um had more of it.
>> Yeah.
>> Um >> but it's a famous one.
>> I know. And and I get it. Like I read it and I got it. just it didn't um hit me as hard as some of the other ones. Um >> yeah, >> I wanted to talk briefly how did you feel about Portraits of His Children?
So, Portraits of His Children is my second place.
>> Um didn't hit either of your list, so I'm wondering is it in the middle for you or >> Yeah, it's it's in the middle. I I I appreciate the story. Um I I sort of understand George has said it a few time a few times that like his the characters that he writes and the books that he writes are his children. I think that's the um I think it's a comment of someone who has no children that doesn't they you like you can't possibly understand what children are like but like that's my one my one thing like no I don't think you like having children is something else it's something that you cannot really describe uh with a with a metaphor like you're writing um but it's still an interesting exploration where and and I I enjoy the twist because you're you're beginning with this character that you're who is saying that I'm not a story like all these other stories and then by the end you're like oh actually she was a story too. Mhm.
>> But, you know, the fact that when he takes his characters and gives them and and causes pain on them that he's actually like hurting them, he he like hurts himself in in like a fatherly sense that, you know, when he if he um I mean, in the story, he has his his character raped and it hurts him as if a father had made his daughter get raped and he he's saying that about his his characters when he gives Tyrion hardship he's hurt when he kills Rob or Catalyn like he's hurt himself because these were his children um I you know I think it's a very beautifully written story and uh he does explore this idea of like of characters being being his children or being part of him um later on I mean it's the same with um it's the same theme in in uh pear-shaped man where I where it's one of It's one of your least favorite probably because of the body horror kind of aspect to it. But it's it's the same theme of like this is a character he's creating that's part of him that that it when when he does something to that person, he does something to himself and it's where where his consciousness ends and this other person's consciousness begins like gets confusing, right? Yeah, that's interesting because I I that's totally true because like the part of it that his writing is his children is a huge part of portraits of his children, but the part that really struck me was more about who has the right to tell stories because Okay, here guys, I'm going to spoil Portraits of His Children. So, I'm sorry. I feel like I can't talk about this without spoiling. If you don't want to be spoiled, >> the premise spoils it. Yeah.
>> Skip ahead three minutes or whatever.
But um you find out that um him and his daughter used to be very very close and now they're hugely estranged and it's because his daughter shared a very personal experience with him. This horrible experience of being sexually assaulted um and they were brought closer in that experience, but then he turned around and wrote a story about her experience. And that arranged them because it it she says it wasn't your story to tell. and the whole exploration and everyone knew it was her basically like everyone knew that that story was actually me and now all of this horrible trauma I experienced you gave to the world and I had trusted you and the story ended up being kind of a push and pull of like well you burdened me with that story and I needed to release it the way I knew how and also it being like but this was a real thing that happened to a real person in your life and um I was it really struck me because he wrote quite early in his career. I think he wrote it in the 70s, >> wasn't it? Or am I making that up?
>> Children is oddly late, I think. Is Portrait of Children 85.
>> Oh, maybe it is in the 80s.
>> Yeah, I think it's I think it's unusual in that it's actually like one of the later stories that >> later. Um >> but he wrote it a long time before um A Song of Ice and Fire. And when I first read um A Game of Thrones, I actually I don't know if you knew why I didn't read A Song of Ice and Fire for so long.
Well, I thought you thought it would be violent and you don't you you especially don't like like violence to get uh like the the descriptions of violence and violence against women and things like that.
>> Yeah. So, like sexual violence. I I I was really concerned. And it's not necessarily just like it's graphic descriptions and also like unnecessary.
I feel like particularly in our old sci-fi and fantasy, it's a trope that was overused in a way >> not very carefully. And and so when I finally read A Song of Ice Fire, I I realized that that was something the show perpetrated, I think, or perpetuated and and really isn't found in A Song of Ice and Fire. Um but there there's a few things in the way he treats sexual assault that like wasn't my favorite, but but ultimately, you know, um they were small enough that it didn't matter. But seeing that he thought so deeply about that situation much earlier in his career and how he really explored like who has the right to tell those kinds of stories and what is the meaning of why we tell those stories really changed my perspective on maybe why he's chosen to include some of that stuff in A Song of Ice and Fire.
Whether or not like it doesn't change whether or not it's done perfectly or not. I I think there were ways he could have still done it better. But knowing that early in his career he was still thinking about like the intensity of those things and why or why not you would include them in your writing really struck me as so deeply thoughtful. And um >> you know in the end >> I I view the main character as a villain. He he did not make the right choice but I still understand why he made the choice he did. And and that is so fascinating to me um about that short story. the um and then I mean isn't there also some ambiguity in the end of the story if she was actually even a real person.
>> Oh, I I assume she was real. I did not get that ambiguity at all. So that's so interesting because quite a bit. She she like go she protests the entire story and then and then is like I'm not one of your stories and then um let me let me uh I mean I mean I maybe >> wait but I I mean like that would totally be so fascinating if I like just completely missed >> No no no no you're so and I mean you're you're you're led that way and then um so it's ambiguous here. I'm sorry. He purposely writes it ambiguous. He says, "Done who his first," he says, "scantling stepped back, folded his arms, studied the four portraits. Such excellent work looking at the paintings.
He could almost feel their presence in the house. Dunahoo, his firstborn, the boy he wished he'd been. his true love. Barry Leighton, the wise and his wise and tired alter ego. Nicole, the daughter he never had. his people, his characters, his children, cuz the it's her her >> Okay, that's such an interesting read because I read it as he gave up the relationship with his real daughter to only have a relationship with the daughter he wrote, but now you saying that it's ambiguous. You're right. It could be that she never existed.
>> It never existed. But I The story reminds me of this like horrible So, I was a huge Buffy and Angel fan like back in the day.
And there was a when Buffy was on, there was this horrible horrible internet debate that would pop up in in chat rooms and it was it was should Buffy be raped?
>> Oh my god, I know about this.
>> Yeah. And people would write don't you think like it would be a really good story and it would give her some trauma to like fight against and it would like illustrate the the the problems and people would be like what the And the response would be like, "What the are you talking about? Like you're like, "Stop this shit." Like, "No, like what?" And so, and it was a it was probably a troll debate that was constantly happening.
Okay. But every writer like has to make that hor like that decision, right? like >> well and that's and that's exactly it is like there's just so much writing that I have read that is like literally that in writing form which is like well my female character didn't have trauma and so I needed to write that in and and that was my perception of what a song of ice and fire was going to be because the show seemed to treat it that way whereas a song of ice and fire really doesn't like anytime it's included there is a point like it it always has a point and that's why I thought for that Yeah, it's just >> not everybody. I mean, I have read stories that literally feel like that Buffy conversation where it's like I think they're serious. I don't think that was troll. I think some people feel that way.
>> But it was and it was just constant like every month there'd be like something you're like, "Oh, I'm done with this conversation again."
>> But yeah, no, it's it's a be it's a it's a beautiful difficult >> Yeah.
>> interesting conversation. And you're you're right that you could talk about portrait portraits of his children forever. Like just the you know how real these characters are and the responsibilities of writers because I think he becomes really famous based on that story. Like that's one of like his breakout >> and and stuff like that. It's >> well and I think it's what he does best as well which is I can see a lot of different arguments. There's no argument I think that's presented in the story as the right argument. Like I think you could argue on the side of both the daughter and the father in many ways um and not be wrong like um which I love when there's stories like that.
>> Yeah. And and I mean that's the thing is like the great stories the ones with George is when I when it's just when I when I think they're the multi-layered when there's just so much in it like um that you can you can go back and read it five times and come up with five different readings. Um, that's what >> Yeah. So, that's um that leads perfectly into what I told you a little bit before we started recording, which is like when I looked at your least favorites, >> I saw a trend of like he doesn't like these because they're all thematically very shallow. Is that Is that true? Is that the reason?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I I really just the one trick pony um stories. I'm just like, you know, so I on there I think there's a there's one called FTA and it's it's about um these scientists and he thinks there's a conspiracy because no one's talking about hyperspace.
They've invented hyperspace and so he's like in hyperspace you're not bound by the speed of light. And they're like and at the end of the story they're like yeah you're not but under hyperspace it's actually slower.
I loved it. I loved it. Um, before we go into that, let me um I wanted to just real quick, so since we're not going to talk about all of them, your top five favorite short stories were The Glass Flower, A Song for Lia, Sand King's Meat House Man, and The Pear-Shaped Man. Um, and my favorites were Sand King's Portraits of His Children, Second Kind of Loneliness, which we had already talked about, When Morning Comes Mistfall, and Forest Single Yesterday.
>> Um, >> so much more to talk about. Oh my goodness.
>> I know. It's just like it's like you could go for hours. Um, your least favorites. Um, all are thematically shallow. Um, my least favorites are like pretty much four out of five are just body horror.
>> Um, Meat House Man is on one of is is one of your least favorite, right?
>> Yes. Both Meat House Man and Pear-shaped Man, which are two of your favorites, are on my least favorite list. So, we will for sure talk about those. Um, >> real quick about >> I still remember the first time I read Meat House Man and where I was.
>> It was such a It was such a >> But for bad reasons.
>> Yeah. But it was such a punch in the gut where I'm just like >> Well, let's talk about FDA real quick.
FDA isn't like one of my favorites, but it is a flash fiction and so I feel like a lot of people don't like it. It's like two pages. Um, >> I I really liked it. I loved the bomb that dropped at the end. Like, >> but it is what we couldn't talk about it for very long. Do you know what I mean?
It kind of is what it is. Like, >> I spoiled it. Now there's no reason to read it.
>> There is. It's like two pages, guys.
Read it. Um, so yeah, tell me about Meat House Man. I will say this, it is it's on my least favorites, but for a very specific reason. Yeah.
>> And it actually doesn't surprise me at all that it would be on people's favorites. Like there's thematically it's very rich.
>> When I met George R. Martin, there was uh a a young woman there and she was like 22 years old and he's like, "Oh, you he's like, "You like my writing?
What do you like?" And she's like, "My favorite story is Meat House Man." And George goes, "Wow, you're really up."
But I've heard him say that a lot.
People are like, "Who's your favorite character, Theon?" And he goes, "Yeah, you're up." But like, >> I mean, is there anyone you can really like and not have that response in his writing?
>> My favorite character is Davos. Oh, okay. You know, >> Brienne, my favorite character is Brienne.
the only morally pure maybe John, you know, um >> Meat House Man.
So what's funny about Meat House Man is so he George wrote three stories that take place in something called the Corpse Handler universe >> where in this universe for labor uh brainless human beings people have their brains removed and they put in machines to to puppet them around and then people can telepathically control them. So someone could somebody can be telepathically controlling five guys at a dock and it's more efficient than than having one guy at a dock and they can go do dangerous things. So this is the universe. So it begins with this guy going to uh a prostitution den and he has sex with a corpse. Um, and the corpse is just rocking his world. And he's thinking the whole time that man, the corpse handler, it must be just an expert. And so he's just like really appreciating this corpse handler. And then he finishes and his friends are like, "What? You thought you were with a corpse handler?" No, dude. Those corpses tap into your subconscious. You were yourself.
And he's so embarrassed and grossed out by it. not not the the the corpse part, but like this is what but the fact that he was masturbating essentially. Um that he he swears off corpses. And so then he tries to to have a real relationship and for the rest of the story and it's it's a quite a long story like >> it gets into two women that he dates. Um and there there one of them is clearly based on Lisa Tuttle and the other is clearly based on this this woman that uh left George for for his best friend. um this happened to him in the in the mid70s and then at the end of the story he is now uh back as a corpse handler doing corpses controlling corpses in in uh gladiator battles which is a metaphor for him becoming a writer like people came here to see the spectacle I can create you know and okay and then but then he goes back and he's with his friend and his girl his new girlfriend and he's talking to his girlfriend and then in the end you you you realize that the girlfriend is is a corpse and it's just such a boom like punch to the gut like oh god and yeah brutal disgusting disgusting very uncomfortable story it there's no there's it's but at the same time there's an interesting statement being made about love and the need to find someone that you think is your intellectual equal um in the relationship because at the end you're like, "Oh god, what a lonely, pathetic piece of shit."
But anybody that has like a trophy wife or a submissive partner or whoever is that, right? You're not really finding love. Like the universe is is scary and and we're all it's it's horrible and and the only thing that gets us through it is the fact that like we can find a partner to share life with that we can connect with. Like that's one of the great things about life and and it goes to show that like how can you have that connection with someone that you don't respect or don't think is your equal um if if you think it's just somebody that you're going to command around. And so I think there's a very interesting statement about even the protagonist in the story like obviously doesn't get there but that that like yes it's lonely and hard and dating is hard and and being in a relationship is hard but it's the only way to not be lonely in this universe is to find a real person. a real person that's your equal that you can connect with rather than essentially having having a whatever somebody that you can a a submissive partner who you can control around which he is equating with masturbation in the end which >> yeah I mean I don't think I mean I think that's how it played out but like that theme was definitely my favorite part of the story like I loved the theme of Beck he when you read it like the real relationships he had like from a normal person were clearly than this corpse relationship that was with himself. Um but that he could not see that because he could not or was unwilling to be emotionally vulnerable over and over again. And and I think there was a lot of interesting to say like yeah it does it is gutting if you're emotionally vulnerable over and over again and get >> get denied like it you give that vulnerability and then you're just it sucks.
>> There must be so many people out there.
We see those people out there that either never a that that get hurt and they never go dating again or they choose a partner that is not really a partner >> or they choose choose bitterness. I mean I think a lot like um we throw this word around a ton which so I don't love the word but like if you think of the real incel community and not what the internet has made them like a lot of times it's scary because it's it's it's scary for women. I'm not saying it's not. It's also deeply sad to me because I see a lot of the pain behind what often leads people to that. And it it reminded me of that story like this is like it's pain masquerading as anger and bitterness and and whatever. Um so I loved that part too. I'm with you there.
It was just the execution of it was so horrific for me that like immediately it has to be like in the bottom. Like >> it's just like that's that's I just have to speak it.
>> I mean, yeah. All of I I can't I can't deny anything you're saying. Like, it's just I agree with you 100%. It's It's the most disgusting setting that you can possibly imagine. It's It's so creepy.
>> And so, it's like it's one of those like I say I dislike, but it's like it's not because I like it shouldn't be written.
I think people should be able to write these disgusting, horrible, uncomfortable things. I just don't necessarily always need to read them.
>> Yeah. Yeah. But I guess I guess I needed to be in that disc cuz But it's funny because in the end like where I'm just like wow like you know like is is it as disgusting as that universe to to yeah be in a relationship where you're just like bossing somebody around like they're like they're a walking corpse. Um I think I think it was like that like statement like oh god like this is this is nothing more than when you're doing that it's nothing more than masturbation. It's nothing more than like yourself when when >> and not even that but like even beyond the sexual part of it. It it's intellectually too like you literally are just hearing your own thoughts.
You're literally just seeing yourself reflected back. And what does that mean for you as a person?
>> Yes. Like imagine like living that that um stereotypical 1950s like idea of like coming home and somebody just puts the dinner in front of you and is like, "Oh, hello sweetie." Mwah. And you just sit there. What What conversations are you having? Are you talking about your hopes and fears and what happened that was horrible today and like you know what you're scared of and what you and what and and what you hope and all the vulnerability that goes into a real relationship that you can share with somebody else if you're just the other person isn't >> um >> engaging you isn't isn't a per Yeah. The other person is yourself like trapped in this trapped talking to yourself.
H.
So I understand.
>> I get it. I I totally get it.
>> I get it. Like that's the thing. I understand the other position. It's just >> I understand it. Now the pear-shaped man I understand less because that's just horrifying. And this actually might be just me because this story is about um you know a girl lives above a guy who really makes her uncomfortable and um no one believes her. So maybe this was just me being like I'm so done with the gaslighting. Like we've all been there that like maybe it was someone told me that they think I felt it was too close to home and that's why I hate it.
probably. Yeah, cuz that's the thing is it's she's such a beautifully written protagonist in that she's just a little bit unlikable >> and then nobody believes her and you're kind of not believing her at first and you're like this is just some crazy >> shrill woman and that like lead that's like the problem.
>> No, I believe her. See, that's the thing because >> Oh, you Yeah. Yeah.
>> 100%. Because you get invalidated as a woman so much for your instincts, but ultimately they are almost always right.
Like how many times I have just been treated terrible and I knew immediately like this person, but you can't tell anyone. You have to trust your gut. So I was I mean I agree with you that she's kind of unlikable because she is judgmental. But like >> I 100% knew >> she was right the whole time, which I think is a very good interesting experience of just like the male versus female experience. It's kind of like um I was involved in like a a self-defense class recently and the guy was like, "Yeah, you know, you shouldn't ever be on your phone at night in a in a parking garage." And all the women are like, "We would never." And the men were like, "What do you mean?" And it's like, "Never. Your keys in your hand. You you've got some anytime you're in a spot, you're always thinking that." And so like I love when I get to hear like different thoughts. So hearing that you read that and you were like, "Should I believe her?" is such an interesting thing because like immediately I was on her side.
>> Oh, absolutely. And it it's it's a dark tale because it gets into the misogyny cuz like you don't because you can read it as one like not believing her with the with the assault aspect of it or you can it can be about um mental health and how like over time like people just don't want to engage with her anymore and you know in the end she becomes the pear-shaped man. Um because >> that part is so weird. I like >> Yeah.
So, I mean, obviously the pear-shaped man is George. He It look he looks just like George, right? But but like >> No, George is not the pear-shaped man.
Let Let be overweight. It doesn't have to be George. There's just overweight people in the world. But it's like, does she become the pear-shaped man in that her her um people stop wanting to engage with her and and and they start ignoring her and they leave her alone until she she becomes a recluse like the parachute man or no one believes her about this assault and then she ends up getting assaulted. Um but it is about like what we do to people, how we ignore them until they until peril happens to them.
Um, I so I I like this this the other the layers of it, but also there's also the third layer of like if George R.
Martin is a writer, where does the the writer end and the and the the character begin and things like this. But I also thought what I my favorite part of Par Pear-shaped man is the the writing at the end because he does this beautiful thing. Like I say, George is obsessed with blended consciousness where one person begins and another person ends.
And the quote I had at the end where he says they they they were against her looking at their they were all against her. She knew looking at their faces. She clutched her briefcase to his chest.
Like I love like just that line. It's so simple. She clutched her briefcase to his chest. They'd taken her things. He couldn't remember exactly what. You're like, >> "Yeah, it's like you said, it's that ambiguous ending where you're like, did they really become one? Is she just like him now and an outcast?
>> He was hungry. She realized like, oh, >> I admit that was a very cool part."
>> Yeah. Okay. But that's all with pear-shaped man.
>> Yeah. I I the meat house man is easier for me to understand the parachute man like I just had such a visual reaction to and like again I had a friend say like that's because of my own experiences and then maybe that is true so maybe I'll come around on it like I could see me reading it again and once I'm I'm divorced from the shock of how horrifying it is like maybe I'll be able to leave that >> it makes me understand why you don't like monkey treatment because monkey treatment is essentially that story without any of the deepness. Well, yeah.
Treatment is camp. It's fine because like that's how I feel like see this is why I want to talk about closing time because I get why you don't like it because there's like not a theme to be found. But to me, closing time is camp.
I love clos like it's total camp. And I'm going to I'm going to spoil it so people don't want to know. But like >> please, >> he gets this coin and he thinks it's going to turn him into an eagle or a bird of some sort.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Something like that.
>> And it turns him into a rabbit. And he's like, I had the worst night of my life.
And they're trying to figure out, well, why did it turn this one person into an eagle and you into a rabbit and they realize you get turned into whatever car you own. So like he owned a Volkswagen rabbit or something and the other person owned a Falcon or whatever. And at the end they're like, "Oh no, he's given it to his wife. What's his wife going to turn into?" And it's a supernova is her car.
>> And then the world ends. I'm sorry. That is camp.
That is high camp. And I am so here for it. George has written nothing like that. Everything always has some sort of theme. This was just like >> pure silly.
>> It's just it's you're saying it's just downright silly and fun and so >> it is.
>> Yeah. Okay. I can understand that.
>> It's one of my top five cuz I want a theme, but like I rated it highly because it's just like you could not have paid me to predict that the ending was literally not going to be some thematic element. It was literally like the world ends cuz her car is a supernova.
Yeah. Yeah, I get it. But I I think I think also I was put on a bad in a bad mood because um and this is just me. I don't like when somebody speaks differently and the writer has to spell out the word. I'm saying like taking like when when it's but to an extreme, you know? when um because you're I find as a reader you're spending more time like differentiating like what they're actually saying that it takes you out of the story. Um it's why a lot of people don't like Star Lady because Star Lady is is even though Star Lady is a really cool tale, Harry How speaks with this, you know, mouth kind of kind of speech the whole the whole time. Um, and so he has a lot of George has a lot of these stories of going to a bar and like workingclass people at a bar is like this comes up all over the place.
>> It does actually. I never connected. The minute you said that I was like I can think of like five stories where people are at a bar off the top of my head, >> right? Stone City, nobody leaves through Pittsburgh. Like it's just Yeah, >> it's um >> Yeah. So, I think I was already in a bad mood being like, "Oh, another one of these like workingass people at a bar mumbling words, but I'm" And then and then it's a supernova.
>> My my question to you is, do you have a car that would turn What would your car turn you into?
>> Uh, I guess I' uh I have a Highlander right now.
>> Oh, of course.
>> Here we are. Um, yeah, I live in the Dominican Republic, so I I need something to go over all the potholes and and curbs. So, >> I was just, um, yeah, I I think it deser I'm not saying it doesn't deserve to be there. I'm just saying it's camp and I get it, you know. Um, your other ones like Nobody Leaves New Pittsburgh. I totally agree with you. That was the most nothing story I've ever read. Like, >> yeah, >> you get to the end of it and you're just like, okay, well, >> yeah. I mean, you get >> there. you get into George's psyche about like how he feels about Bale, New Jersey, and like his past and things like that. Um, and like George has this weird lovehate relationship with with the um the working class people that he grew up with. On the one hand, he like sympathizes with their with their situation and lack of economic mobility, but at the same time, he also is frustrated and angry about their lack of motivation and their their willingness to just be like, "This is my life," you know, and a lot of his stories like focus on that frustration because he >> he is a guy >> for the most part, I feel like because um the other story I thought did that too, I'm trying to remember the name of it. Let me look. Uh, was um was it closing time?
>> No, no, we just talked about closing time. Sorry. I meant um >> what? No, we just talked about that.
It's not that one.
>> There's one where like it's like Oh, the night shift. I'm thinking night shift.
That's what I was thinking of. Like the night shift deals with that. I feel like >> um the men of Gaywater Station in some ways deals with that.
>> Yeah, Stone City. The middle of Stone City before he goes under >> Stone City. Um, >> yeah, but uh, >> yeah, a lot of nothing. Um, I I could make a case for the last Super Bowl. I think there's some very interesting things about AI there, but um, yeah, I mean, you do have to I get it. You have to listen to a lot of football talk.
>> Yeah. And him describing this game that I that that >> I I supposed to think is interesting.
Keep in mind >> thematically there's stuff there but like I understand I understand why >> a lot of it a lot of it was from a different time. So he was a journalism major and got a master's degree in journalism and then he didn't get into journalism. Um and then he taught journalism even though he'd never really been in it but >> that's common.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
So a lot of his stories like Armageddon rag is about journalists, right? Um >> writers like to write about other writers. Yeah, just like actors. I mean, Hollywood likes to make movies about actors.
>> 100%.
>> Um, >> YouTubers like to make videos about YouTubing.
It's literally an epidemic.
>> Theater chorus line theater likes to have theater about theater. Like, >> um, so, uh, what was I saying? Um, the, uh, oh, about, um, his his journalism. He uh I lost my train of thought. I'm so sorry.
>> Sorry.
>> But he >> it was my fault.
>> Oh. Oh, there was a time where newspapers were largely surviving on their sports section. Keep in mind that like back in the day like you did you could see your local team but um sometimes on the radio or TV but to find out what h was happening in the other >> baseball games, football games, you would have to read the newspaper and they would have >> he wrote he wrote as like a local sports journalist for a bit.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And so he um and so it tended to be that the best writers were in the in the newspaper were the sports writers because they had to take some game that's been played a million times and make it seem interesting and use all sorts of metaphors and different words to describe balls being flung around the the field. Okay, there there was a special art to sports writing and the sports writing was the prime driver of newspaper sales. like it was it was the thing people bought the newspaper for because that's how you found it. Now we've got you can watch all the games, you can have ESPN, you have all this stuff, but and so I get it like why he wrote this story and in a different time like it it would be a demonstration of his ability to to write a sports story.
Um but it's it's it's no longer that time.
>> Yeah. And I think you're right about when it was written. I think now it's very interesting because I think it is evergreen in some ways because I do think there's a lot of conversations to be had about real versus fake and online versus the real thing. Um that's becoming more and more prevalent like right now. But um like I it's ironically evergreen as well as he's talking about the last Super Bowl as in something that is times moved on and this no longer exists. Um, >> and it listed a time that is in the past of now, >> but also he's writing it. He's writing the sports story is also something that is gone. Like what's funny is that he's writing about the Super Bowl, but it actually happened to the sports story that he's that like so and it it ironically has become evergreen.
>> Yeah. In a lot of ways.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I mean, there's the problem is is we could talk about a million things.
Like, we didn't talk about in the house of the worm, which is something I see a lot of people love, but so I was surprised to see that it didn't make either of our top stories.
>> Like, it's kind of funny.
>> Also, some body horror. That's a gross story.
>> I actually I was okay with that one. I There was enough thematic element to pull me out of it, but um >> uh we could talk for hours about his work. I'm so grateful that you even took two hours to come and and talk about it.
Um, I'm sure it won't be >> fun. Thank you. Thank you for talking to me for two hours. Yeah.
>> Won't be our last. Um, uh, thank you so much for joining me. I'm sure we'll talk about these again. And, um, as our our final question, what did you think of the Nights of the Seven Kingdoms TV show? Did you enjoy it?
>> I I I I enjoyed it a lot. I thought it was a really great show. Um the I I I rank it as you know first season of Game of Thrones, second season of Game of Thrones, third season of Game of Thrones, and then I would put another The Seven Kingdoms. I think it's a I think it's really really a really good show. Really fun. Um I I would argue that it's not thematically on it like it doesn't hit the same thematic notes as the short story surprisingly. like it doesn't really focus on the class conflict that is so big with um Dunk in the >> shift the class conflict. They shift it in between um um oh my gosh stag my brain is dead.
>> Yeah.
>> Baratheon.
Oh my gosh. I cannot prove that word.
Just like was not coming. Baratheon and Dunk versus Dunk and the everyday man.
You know, they didn't have any of the scenes of the everyday men really >> right. And I understand he can't get in his head and him counting the costs of everything and stuff like that, but um so I I I kind of say like it's more akin to a movie like Rudy or Rocky than it is to the short story. But Rudy and Rocky are those are good those are good stories. I mean like >> Yeah. I mean I rarely does an adaptation beat the original work for me because I'm I'm more of a reader than a watcher.
But I also enjoyed it. I thought it was I thought it was a solid show and if it gets more people into it then uh it's a good thing. But >> yeah, it was cute.
>> It was cute. Oh my gosh, it was cute.
That's a perfect note to end on. Um everybody tell us your thoughts in the comments. You can give us your favorite or least favorite of Georgia short stories. Um tell us what thoughts of ours were cute and which were not. And um Preston, thank you for joining and uh we'll see you all next time. Bye.
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