I Cringed Watching These Protestants Critique Catholicism

Added: 2026-06-05

[00:00:00]All right, so I recently came across a clip from a panel discussion hosted by Jeremy Boring where he featured the likes of Allie Beth Stuckey, Frank Turek, and David Limbaugh. And the conversation essentially centered around Catholicism and some of their reasons why they of course disagree with it. And I'll be honest with you.

[00:00:20]I'll be honest.

[00:00:21]This was a very very difficult watch for me. And it's probably not for some of the reasons that you're probably thinking of in your minds, right? It's not that I've suddenly secretly, you know, began to convert to Catholicism, or it's not that their critiques somehow poked holes in my Protestant convictions or anything like that. Rather, this was such a tough watch for me because I felt like this discussion was just littered with so many caricatures of the actual Catholic position. And you know, I kind of think that's unfortunate because you know, if you know me, part of what I like to promote here on this channel is that we do not caricature each other's positions. Right? I Not only do I think that's just the right thing to do, but I also think that it really doesn't help anybody involved whenever we do that.

[00:01:14]Now, to be clear, I do not uh think that this means that I kind of agree with Catholicism, right?

[00:01:23]It doesn't mean that I suddenly think Rome is right on this or that issue, right? And it certainly doesn't mean that I don't have my own disagreements with Catholic theology, right? Anybody who has been following this channel for any length of time know that I have my own gripes with Catholicism, and I make that very very clear.

[00:01:41]But, even with all that being said, I still think that we have a responsibility to accurately represent the people that we are critiquing. Even when, and especially when, we strongly disagree with them. And I feel the same way here, even though these people are largely on my side of the theological spectrum or the theological debate, I still think the same principle applies. Right, if we're going to critique Catholicism, then my friends, let's critique what Catholics actually believe. Let's not critique a simplified version of their position. Let's not critique a dumbed-down version of what they believe. Let's not critique a caricature of their actual position. Let's critique the real thing. Now, I kind of don't want to spoil too much of the video because I actually want you to see what they say or what they said for yourself. And so, here's the clip.

[00:02:39]>> Catholicism though has a rich intellectual tradition. It just isn't a rich intellectual tradition around the direct study of the Bible. And so, it's a di- it's more of a philosophical >> It's Aquinas.

[00:02:49]>> It's Aquinas. It's a philosophical tradition, which is >> Because nobody had the Bible.

[00:02:52]>> Right. It was chained to the church lector.

[00:02:55]>> You know. [laughter] >> And that's why evangelicals have dominated apologetics. Because not that there's anything wrong with philosophy, I think it's beautiful and I learn a lot from Catholic theologians like Chesterton, and I think that's good.

[00:03:04]But, I would say in the intellectual realm when it comes to defending the faith, I mean, evangelicals have dominated that for a very long time. I mean, I am so thankful for the evangelical upbringing that I have.

[00:03:14]Like, I don't know a better mechanism for memorizing scripture and understanding the gospel than Awana.

[00:03:18]Like, I'm so glad I went to the evangelical K-12 grade that I did at the church and the Wednesday night and all of that. You know, I had the exact kind of upbringing that a lot of people make fun of now that oh, the megachurch and purity culture and church camp and Awana and all that. And to the people who make fun of that, who think they're more intellectual, I'm like, what's the gospel? What does John 3:16 say? And a lot of people that make fun of like my megachurch evangelical upbringing cannot even tell me the basic tenets of Christianity.

[00:03:41]>> John 3:16 is obvious. It's the one that's on the bottom of the In-N-Out cup that means get it's time for thou shalt get a refill. That's However, some of that's changing. There's a lot of now Catholic Bible studies. There's a lot of evangelical Catholics, which is great.

[00:03:53]>> praise God for that.

[00:03:54]>> Me, too. Yeah, when people ask me, I get a lot of questions on college campuses, mostly from Protestants, but sometimes Catholics. But, when Protestants ask the question, "Do you think Catholics can be saved?" I always say, "I even think some Baptists can be saved."

[00:04:04]>> [laughter] >> And what about some Calvinists?

[00:04:06]>> Yeah. And some Calvinists can be saved, Frank. And some they're predestined to freely believe.

[00:04:10]>> [laughter] >> I was just making sure the Calvinists are included.

[00:04:13]>> Yeah. Before this gets carried away and people think we're trashing I I think all of us have very good feelings about Catholics individually.

[00:04:19]It's just But, but uh there's there's differences in in we're we're unafraid of them, I'm unapologetic about them. And >> Yeah.

[00:04:26]>> uh but um I'm not we're not here to trash Catholics. Can I can I sum up what one of my mentors said about it cuz he came out of Roman Catholicism as well, Norman Geisler. By the time he died, he'd written 129 books.

[00:04:36]>> Wow.

[00:04:36]>> He's written more books than most people had seen, you know. And um he had a book that I still think is a standard work on the topic, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences. And he said he went to Loyola Marymount, he's got his PhD in a Catholic college, a Catholic university.

[00:04:50]And he said, "If I had to sum up my basic problem from a my perspective, what I think is a biblical perspective with Roman Catholicism, is that they've institutionalized salvation."

[00:04:59]That you have to go through seven steps, and we're the ones that are going to administer those steps to you. You have to go through this organization. This is of course pre-Vatican II.

[00:05:06]>> Mhm.

[00:05:07]>> But, if Vatican II is now saying that the separated brethren outside of the Roman Catholic Church can be saved, which is what they are saying, now you've got another problem if you're a Roman Catholic, because you're changing your doctrine when you say, "No, we don't change our doctrine." The doctrine has changed. It's clearly changed. This is why people who are traditional Catholics are saying, "We don't like Vatican II." But, in any event, the difference was he's saying they've institutionalized salvation. And of course, there was no institution to grant salvation to the apostles or at Pentecost or any of these early on. In fact, the the the bishop of Rome did not begin to assert his authority until late in the 400s AD.

[00:05:40]>> even at Nicaea.

[00:05:41]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:41]>> Uh here's a question for you. You know, there's two apologists in the room. We put you in And chairs on purpose. Uh but, because because you have a background in Catholicism in particular.

[00:05:49]>> Mhm.

[00:05:50]>> The The Catholic answer as I understand it is that Christ himself gives the keys to heaven and hell to the apostles. And so they would say, "Well, there was an institution um that the institution that that existed beginning at Pentecost is the apostles. That the apostles did have uh the keys to the door. Their Their job was What What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven." What What >> Apostles, not apostle, not Peter.

[00:06:13]Because if you look at Matthew chapter 16, the rock is not Peter. The rock is either the confession of that Jesus is the Christ or Christ himself. In fact, in Peter's own book, he says that Jesus is the cornerstone.

[00:06:25]He doesn't say he is.

[00:06:26]>> Yeah.

[00:06:26]>> So, the rock is not Peter. In fact, if it was If Peter was the first Pope, why is Paul correcting him in the book of Galatians in chapter 2?

[00:06:34]>> Yeah.

[00:06:35]>> Right? Peter is a sinner just like everybody else. Now, I understand people infallibility did not come on until about 1860 according to the Roman Catholic Church, but the idea that there is this succession, first of all, it's not biblical.

[00:06:45]If If Let's just say the apostles do have the keys. Does that mean people after them also have the keys? And is there some sort of >> Well, they would say apostolic succession, right? That through the keys that there was always an institution.

[00:06:55]That that not only did Peter have the keys, but the apostles had >> John had the keys. Yeah, okay.

[00:06:58]>> that therefore there's always been institution an Salvation has always been institutionalized within >> But it's not an The institution The institution was not the Roman Catholic Church then.

[00:07:09]Because the Roman Catholic Church, as I already pointed out, >> And they believe that, of course. They believe that that is that Peter, as as you pointed out, as you debunked, is the rock upon which Jesus built his church.

[00:07:17]When he says the gates of hell will not prevail against the church, they believe he started the Catholic Church. And a lot of my Catholic friends will say, "You know, come home and join the church that Jesus Christ established." And of course, we believe that no, Catholic, universal, Jesus established that church, and we are his people, lowercase c.

[00:07:31]>> And the believers in the Roman Catholic Church are part of that.

[00:07:34]>> Yes, all believers who believe that by grace through faith you're saved. Yes.

[00:07:39]>> Okay. So, because this is uh uh this is rich these are rich grounds here. If it's the case that the Catholic the problem with the Catholic Church is that it's institutionalized salvation, is the problem with the Protestant Church that there are absolutely no institutions built around safeguarding doctrine, safeguarding theology, safeguarding these ideas that that can lead to salvation and transmitting them across time in a way that isn't subject to let's say uh subject to corruption.

[00:08:07]>> Well, I started to say that the main institution is is scripture. That That's the That's the true north for us.

[00:08:13]>> Yeah, what is the authority? Exactly.

[00:08:14]>> they they literally mock the the idea that at least the the mockers.

[00:08:18]>> Some, yeah.

[00:08:19]>> On Yeah, not all. In fact, not even half. I Thank you for clarifying that.

[00:08:22]But, the the mean ones on Twitter like our side is can be mean, too. Just so I'm clear. But, they say you're you're not uh they make fun of the the Bible. They make fun of our reliance on the Bible.

[00:08:33]Because we Oh, you can interpret So, you got billion people who can interpret scripture. So, it's virtually meaningless.

[00:08:38]>> No, no. But, here's the problem. No, I know the answer.

[00:08:40]>> Okay. No, never mind. No, you're my You're my inferior. I want to >> No, continue. No, I really You'll say it better than I did. Yes, yes.

[00:08:46]No, I I just I just think that the scripture speaks for itself. And plus, we do have mentors. You're one of my mentors.

[00:08:51]>> No, you No, seriously.

[00:08:52]>> As you are one of mine cuz he's written some brilliant books. But, here's the problem when people say we have a an infallible interpreter in the Pope.

[00:08:59]Let's just say they do. We still have to interpret what he said.

[00:09:02]>> Yeah.

[00:09:03]>> I I I don't think that I want to steel man the argument. I don't think that they would say that we have a perfect interpreter in the Pope. I think that they would say we have a perfect interpreter in the church. That there have been many times in the last 2,000 years in which Popes have spoken authoritatively. Doesn't mean everything ever said by every Pope was authoritative. But, there have been many times in these thousands of years when Popes have spoken authoritatively in in defense of the the true interpretation of the true meaning um of scripture. And the church is the repository of all of that authority that is that has happened over time. So, I don't think that I don't think that it's probably a fair thing to say that the average Catholic believes that Pope Leo is the ultimate authority on the interpretation of scripture. No, they would say the church is the ultimate authority on the interpretation of scripture. Pope Leo will probably contribute, if he's lucky, he might contribute to that body of authority once or twice or or thrice in his lifetime. Uh but this is a 2,000-year safeguarding of >> Yeah, the problem with that though is is that we still have to interpret what they've said. Why have the middleman when you can go right to the people who we know were inspired, who wrote down the Bible, and interpret what they said?

[00:09:59]Why do we have to have another person come in, he interprets what that says, then we have to interpret what he says.

[00:10:04]He might be right, he might be wrong.

[00:10:06]What I'm saying is practically it doesn't help you.

[00:10:08]>> All right, so now that you've seen that clip, let me show you exactly what I mean. Just in case if some of you weren't able to pick up on exactly how bad they caricatured the Catholic position. Right, I want to uh walk you through three statements that immediately stood out to me whenever I watched it for the first time. And just for some clarity, cuz I know some of my Catholics in the comment section, they're probably going to be like, "Only three? I know they made more than three." But just for the sake of brevity, I'm just going to relegate it to just three for right now. And so the first statement that kind of caught my attention, uh right from the jump, is when Jeremy said, and quote, "Catholicism, though, has a rich intellectual tradition. It just isn't a rich intellectual tradition around the direct study of the Bible. So it's more of a philosophical tradition."

[00:10:59]Now, I have interacted with enough Catholics to know that what he just said there is a gross misrepresentation of what Catholics actually believe. Right, a Catholic would not say that Catholicism is primarily a philosophical tradition rather than a biblical one. In fact, if he was speaking to a devout Catholic, they would probably point to centuries of biblical commentaries and biblical scholarship and biblical preaching and biblical studies and biblical theology, all produced from Catholics. And so they would go on to argue that scripture has always been central to the life of the church.

[00:11:38]Now, where Protestants Catholics actually disagree is not whether or not the Bible should be studied, right? Both camps actually agree about that.

[00:11:48]The disagreement, however, is over the role scripture plays within the life of the church itself, right? That's where the disagreement actually lies. You see, as Protestants, we believe scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith, right? Catholics, on the other hand, believe that scripture is interpreted within the broader context of sacred tradition and, of course, the teaching authority of the church. Now, like I said, I completely disagree with the Catholic position, right? I believe Rome places authorities alongside scripture that, frankly, I don't think the New Testament that ever authorizes.

[00:12:27]But, I want you to notice what I'm actually disagreeing with.

[00:12:31]I'm disagreeing with what Catholics actually claim rather than suggesting that Catholics, you know, simply aren't interested in the study of the scriptures because that, my friends, simply is not true.

[00:12:44]And so, that actually brings me to the second statement that kind of stood out to me. And it was a moment where Frank Turek said, and quote, "Nobody had the Bible. It was chained to the church lectern."

[00:12:56]And again, I completely understand the broader concern being raised here by Frank Turek. There are legitimate Protestant questions regarding, you know, access to scripture and the role of the church in interpreting scripture.

[00:13:10]But, >> [laughter] >> if a Catholic heard that statement, I imagine that they would, I don't know, immediately object to that and reject it as something that they did not believe, do do not believe, etc., etc., right? Again, a thoughtful Catholic would point out that in the ancient and medieval world, books were incredibly expensive, which is just a historical fact, right? Manuscripts had to be copied by hand, right? Churches chained books, universities chained books, libraries chained books. And the purpose of chaining these books was not simply to prevent people from reading them, but it was often to protect valuable books from things like theft and burglary and etc. etc. Now, does that settle the Protestant-Catholic debate? No, not at all, right? It doesn't really move the needle forward one way or the other. I still believe Protestants have important questions regarding the authority of scripture and whether the Catholic Church encouraged ordinary Christians to test doctrines against scripture. I think that's what Dr. Frank Turek was really trying to get at. But I want you to notice how those are very different questions than simply saying, you know, nobody had a Bible because it was chained to a lectern.

[00:14:30]Again, I disagree fundamentally with Rome's understanding of authority.

[00:14:36]I'm trying to make this very, very clear so that my Protestants don't misunderstand me here. However, I just don't think this particular statement accurately captures the Catholic position.

[00:14:47]And so, you know, that brings me to the third and final statement that really made me pause. And it was again a moment when Frank Turek uh actually quoted his mentor Norman Geisler, who summarized the problem between Catholics and Protestants this way.

[00:15:02]He said, and quote, "They've institutionalized salvation, that you have to go through seven steps, and we're the ones that are going to administer those steps to you. You have to go through this organization."

[00:15:16]And again, I know I sound like a broken record, but that is simply not what Catholics believe, my friends. Right? A Catholic does not believe that the church replaces Christ, right? A Catholic does not believe that the institution saves people apart from Christ.

[00:15:32]Rather, a Catholic believes, or at least a thoughtful Catholic believes, that Christ established a visible church and ordinarily dispenses his grace through the sacramental means he entrusted to that church. Right? That is what Catholics actually believe. Now again, I completely disagree with that claim, right? I do not believe the New Testament teaches the sacramental system as Rome itself understands it, right? I do not believe the New Testament teaches that grace is ordinarily dispensed through the Roman Catholic priesthood in the way that the Rome Rome claims it does.

[00:16:10]Those are real gripes and disagreements that I have. But again, I want you to notice the difference between the two the two statements, right? One statement says Catholics believe an institution saves you and the other says Catholics believe that Christ saves you through means he established within the visible church.

[00:16:31]And those two statements, my friends, are not the same claim. And so again, if we're going to critique Catholicism, then my humble appeal to every single Protestant is that I I just want us to critique their actual claim because critiquing a caricature, again, like I said in the introduction, helps no one.

[00:16:57]And my friends, you know, this is why I wanted to make this video, right? I wanted to respond to this discussion because I wanted to take this opportunity to just encourage my fellow Protestants to simply do better because it's not going to help anybody in this discussion when the other side can simply respond to your critiques by simply saying, "Well, it's a good thing that I don't believe that." Like, I really want us to think about this from our perspective for a moment. You see, as Protestants of all people, we should understand the frustration of having our views misrepresented. I mean, I feel like every other video that I come across uh from, let's say, a Catholic or Orthodox apologist is really them misrepresenting what we believe about things like Sola Scriptura. You know, of course, they frame it as though we believe that every Christian becomes their own pope. You kind of hear this a lot. Or you'll see someone misrepresent what we believe about, you know, let's say, justification by faith alone. And and they, of course, frame it as though we're essentially, you know, advocating for antinomianism. Like, we don't care about works. And it's like, "No, that's not the position at all."

[00:18:13]And look, it frustrates us, don't it? Does it not?

[00:18:17]Right? I know it frustrates me, right?

[00:18:19]And so, my question is, why are we doing the same thing to them?

[00:18:25]If we expect this common courtesy from them, then consistency demands that we extend that same common courtesy in return. I mean, is this not what our Lord and Savior taught us to do? Right?

[00:18:37]Jesus told us to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. And I want you to notice, he didn't say only after they do right by you.

[00:18:48]No, he calls us to do right by people because we would want them to do the same.

[00:18:55]And my friends, I think that's a principle that we should apply to apologetics, as well.

[00:19:01]And so, if we want Catholics to accurately present Protestantism before critiquing it, then we should accurately present represent Catholicism before critiquing it as well. Right? If we want people to engage our strongest arguments, then we should likewise engage theirs. Right?

[00:19:21]It's a very simple concept when you think about it. And I think it's one that we can all follow through on if we are just a bit more careful.

[00:19:31]Now, to be clear, I don't think anyone in this discussion had bad intentions.

[00:19:37]Right? That's not what I'm saying. I don't think Jeremy or Ali or Frame or David were intentionally trying to deceive anyone. In fact, I suspect that they were speaking from a genuine conviction. But my friends, I still need you to understand that good intentions don't automatically produce accurate representations.

[00:19:58]And and so, when we're talking about the beliefs of millions of people, especially when those people aren't present to clarify their own position, it is incumbent upon us to exercise extreme caution and charity in our discussions, in our articulations of their positions. Right? I don't think that's too much to ask, is it not? Look, if you are not as knowledgeable about what Catholics believe regarding a particular doctrine, then my advice to you is very simple.

[00:20:30]Don't speak so confidently on it. It's really that simple. Right? The great thing about Catholicism is that they actually have documents that you can read that actually presents their uh positions. Right? They have councils that you can study. They have catechisms that clearly lay out what they believe.

[00:20:50]Now granted, it's a lot of them, but, you know, if you want to know what they believe, they're there. Right? Um and so, maybe before going live and telling the world what Catholics believe, maybe, just maybe, take a little time to brush up on what Catholics actually believe before telling the world that this is what they actually believe.

[00:21:12]I don't think that's too much to ask, my friends. Because remember, right, truth doesn't need caricatures to win.

[00:21:20]And if our position is true, and I believe that it is, just for the record, then we should be confident enough to engage the strongest version of the other side's argument, rather than tearing down the weakest articulation of it, right?

[00:21:35]Again, very simple concept. I think we can nail this.

[00:21:40]But all right, guys. Look, that's the video. Let me know what your thoughts are in the comment sections down below.

[00:21:45]Uh do you think these were fair representations of Catholicism? Do you think I'm probably being too charitable?

[00:21:52]I don't know. Let me know your your thoughts down in the comment section below. And as always, guys, if you like what you see and you want to see more of videos like this, please like, share, and subscribe. Do all that good stuff.

[00:22:02]As it really does help the channel out a lot. And [music] until next time, guys.

[00:22:07]Peace.

[00:22:12]>> [music] [music]