Germanic: The Language of the Gods?

追加: 2026-06-04

[00:00:14]Hello and welcome to another episode of Jive Talk. This one's going to be great for fans of Germanic linguistics and anyone who's just generally interested in the Germanic people and how their languages developed.

[00:00:27]Speaking today to Conrad Rosenberg who is a student of linguistics in Sweden and he specializes in Germanic philology. He runs the Substack blog Gems of Germanic philology and an associated account on x.com.

[00:00:44]I have personally consulted him many times over the years whenever I have a linguistic question about one of the ancient Germanic languages. And that's quite impressive because he's still a young man in his early 20s. So I must have been consulting him since he was a teenager. Uh I also highly recommend Conrad's ongoing translation of the poetic eda titled the northern epics the poetic eta and other old Germanic illiterative poetry which often opts for English translations of the proper names. So perhaps we should begin talking about that. Welcome to Jive Talk Conrad.

[00:01:21]>> Thank you very much. Uh it's great to be here. I mean I've followed your channel for a while. I love your documentaries.

[00:01:27]I love your I don't know. I just think it's great content. It's It's what the world really needs to be honest. Uh well, I suppose I could I could start maybe talking a bit before I go into the translation. I could uh I suppose talk about what what led up to it and you know how I got into philology or linguistics or everything of that sort.

[00:01:47]So I think I've been studying on and off. I mean I've not been in a university since I was 14 but that's about when it started. uh I really got into wictionary and you know reading I don't know just looking up runic inscriptions everything of the sort really and after that it sort of snowballed into into an obsession where I was spending maybe uh especially in high school I was probably spending like eight hours a day as soon as I got home uh I would just sit up and read and you know uh really study everything I could get my hands on download PDFs borrow books buy books like ship antiquarian stuff just uh just to expand my knowledge. Uh my translation started in about uh 2021. Um originally my idea was just to compile like as many texts as possible into one big PDF. Like if you if you think about the Bible, right? What is the Bible?

[00:02:42]Well, the Bible is sort of the the Old Testament at least the Hebrew Bible.

[00:02:47]It's sort of a best off of the Jewish people, right? uh you have poetry, you have history, you have religious law, you have uh so much content. We don't really have anything like that. You can't buy one book and get all the essential texts in it. And so my idea was what if we do that with uh with let's say old Norris, old English. What if you could get Baywolf and the Wolf Saga and the P together within two covers? Um well uh that's a huge project. So I I quickly decided that was not going to work. So I but I decided to narrow it down and just focus on the poetry uh because there's a lot to learn about poetry.

[00:03:25]>> What what about the um specifically because not everyone knows what I meant when I said English. So English is a type of uh linguistic purism which wants to remove certain romance influences from the English language. uh some some of the people who are interested are a bit kooky but in terms of poet uh poetry it's actually quite um people who are interested in like poetry and like the beauty of the English language sometimes think about English not to try and reconstruct a pure you know the linguistic purist ideal of English but just to use prettier sounding words. So, in your translation, you've opted for uh English uh literal translations of the names of proper the proper names of characters such as the gods.

[00:04:13]>> Can you talk a bit about your motivation for that decision?

[00:04:17]>> Well, I I write about it in the book, but uh there were a few motivations. I think the first one was just misprononunciation.

[00:04:23]Um, I feel I feel like I I know you say this, so so I hope I'm I'm not offending you, but when I hear for instance, right, the gods when I hear it pronounced or when I hear Mosgard, right, the name the the land of the gods pronounced Asgard, I don't know it. U it it just irked me a little bit. Um, so I >> I don't say I don't >> I think you do, but it's fine.

[00:04:47]>> No, I've never said I You're mistaken.

[00:04:49]I've always said a the ash is the sound.

[00:04:53]I've never I might have said um as god.

[00:04:56]Yeah. But I never said Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:58]>> Yeah. I know a lot of people use these terms and and of course they have become accepted into the language. But I thought it would be fun um for the translation to try to aim for something which hasn't been done before. Uh which is to properly anglicize these words and use them as they would have come down in modern English. So for instance, Thor becomes thunder. uh orin right both these are gods of course becomes weren uh in old English and then weden in my modern English or I suppose you could also pronounce it weeden I think the spelling is a bit a bit ambiguous >> uh you get middle earth right that's form but I rendered it midenard uh which is closer to the old English midyard uh I also re rendered Oscard as oyard so in both of these you get the yard element which sort implies an enclosure.

[00:05:49]>> I would say though that not all of these forms are they're not all like linguistically accurate to exactly how the words would have turned out.

[00:05:56]>> So wouldn't wouldn't in English cuz O would be s singular. So would it not be escard or escard if it was in in uh or is sorry >> uh oard is not actually the genetic plural. Oshor just takes the stem anogas and the stem in English would become o in old English and then o in modern English. So there there are all these small nuances.

[00:06:20]>> What was the first humanic language that really interested you?

[00:06:25]>> Uh well it would have to be I mean I'm Swedish of course as you can probably hear from my accent and uh for me it really was old Swedish. I didn't really start you know with the historical stuff until uh maybe a few years into my journey so to speak. For the first few years, I was just reading old Swedish, you know, familiarizing myself with the K system and uh and with all this weird grammar that's sort of fossilized in the language. Uh even modern English has some of these fossils. Like you have a word like quillum um wh i l o m e, which is actually a fossilized dative plural.

[00:06:59]That is the same as old English, which is totally gone from the modern language. Uh but in Swedish, we have a lot more of these fossils. And I just found it so fascinating how you can see these well they really are fossils right you can see these traces of a much earlier variety um >> still found in the modern language. So I started with old Swedish and I was mostly reading like old Bibles. Okay maybe that's not very kosher for this channel but um I I was reading old Bibles, old poetry, uh medieval laws, like everything I could get my hands on.

[00:07:31]And then I eventually stumbled upon Old Norse. Uh and and and my mind was blown because compared to old Swedish, Old Norse is so much more archaic. It has many more archaic forms. It has extremely old texts, you know, it has these poems from the 9th, even the 8th century probably some of them. Um so that just fascinated me and I've been obsessed with with edict poetry and and so on ever since.

[00:07:58]My wife who's Swedish struggles with Old Norse. I mean, not just that she can't understand it, but she finds some of the pronunciations in Old Norse and modern Icelandic a bit odd. uh not just the the the novel ones that have emerged in modern Icelandic, but like how the way the Rs are pronounced, for example, and um the the the common what do you call it at the end of the what became at the in protogerermanic as became the >> the sort of pal R we often call it.

[00:08:32]>> Yeah, the palatal R. She really doesn't like that. I can see that like Swedifi I I I don't know what what the reason for this is but the Swedified versions of Old Norse names remove that uh pal palatable R do you call it uh the same way as anglified old Norse translations do so is that um is that something that you as a Swedish speaker also encountered? Um I mean I've been I've been pronouncing it for so long that I I I seem to have little struggle nowadays but it is drastically different. uh even from modern Icelandic, old Norse is very different. For instance, you have uh what we call short syllables.

[00:09:09]>> So in Icelandic you would say u ta but in old north you say taka. You have this like papa bum bum and this sort of rhythm is totally foreign to to standard Swedish and to modern Icelandic. Uh although it is found in Swedish dialects for instance still preserve this archaic rhythm. But that's something that's very hard. It's very very hard for a native speaker to learn.

[00:09:32]>> Which dialect are you talk? Are you referring to Alf Dalan?

[00:09:36]>> Uh I suppose I could I could talk about uh should I talk about that?

[00:09:40]>> Well, I just curious which which dialect is it that preserves this this shortened vow that is necessary.

[00:09:45]>> It's preserved um yeah it's preserved in many northern dialects especially um in northern Sweden um >> Norland.

[00:09:54]>> Yeah, mostly also Yland has has many of them. Um >> interesting. Finland.

[00:09:59]>> Well, I know the Icelanders when I was in Iceland, they don't like the the implication that Icelandic is in any way different from old Norm.

[00:10:07]>> Um, but uh that would be interesting then for the in a poetic sense. Surely the the change in the length of the vows will change the rhythm of the poem.

[00:10:16]>> Oh, they do. They absolutely do. And that's funny actually. There's there's an old Norse meter called Leah >> which has >> Yeah, exactly. song meter or like even galer meter because alo is sort of like a spell or a charm. Um >> this meter has uh it has what we call sea lines which are these like shorter lines that have a very a very beautiful rhythm I think. Uh but every short line they must must either end in one long syllable uh or in a short syllable followed uh by a syllable of variable length. Um so for instance in mall you have sama right this sama it only works if it is s if you say sama uh then the meter breaks in old north but to Icelanders it just sounds like sama so they don't realize this so when they try to compose their only all the hot poetry uh they always fail at this so it's very easy to tell if it was made in the old north period or if it's a modern Icelandic fabrication >> very sorry to Icelandic fans listening if we've triggered you with this conversation.

[00:11:21]Um, one thing I've personally really interested in, um, and, uh, you've covered it on your blog a bit and I first heard it from the from my professor, uh, Richard North at university. He was saying how theoretically uh a lot of um old Norse and old English would have been mutually intelligible in the Viking age and gave an example of like a conversation um where someone would say uh like that they're pretty much they're sim similar I mean I have not I'm not very perfect pronunciation how I have things but um what Um, what do you what can you speak to us about like the alleged mutual intelligibility of the two languages and why that might be?

[00:12:16]>> Yeah, I I think it's a great question. U well, to begin with, these languages are closely related. Of course, they are Germanic languages, but old English and old Norse always had a sort of affinity for each other. Uh, well, to begin with, they go back to northwest Germanic. Uh, and that's the subbranch of Germanic that uh, breaks off from East Germanic.

[00:12:36]That's Gothic. Or rather, you could say that northwest Germanic are to use a phrase, they're the ones who stayed behind, right? While the Goths moved to Eastern Europe, the Vandals also were going south. Uh, the Langobards, many of these groups, uh, the Northwest Germanic mostly stayed put in northern Germany and in Scandinavia. U, >> so let's put some dates in here to just give context for the listeners. So the the east Germanic divergence is somewhere around the first or second century.

[00:13:03]>> Uh it's probably a bit earlier. I think the wheelbar culture um seems to get it get itself started in like around 50 BC I think.

[00:13:12]>> Mhm.

[00:13:13]>> And and the wheelbar culture comes from southern Sweden, eastern Sweden. Uh and they are probably carrying with them just a completely normal Germanic language. It's very unlikely that there was anything unique about Gothic because that's what the wheelbar culture likely like likely spoke, right? It's very unlikely there was anything unique about Gothic uh when they were in Scandinavia itself. But it's first after they move and they start developing their own speech and their own their own patterns and then we got the Gothic Bible uh around 350 is when it's translated. And so you have about 400 years of unique development for Gothic. And I think that aligns pretty well with what we see because Gothic is very archaic. It's very much like protogerermanic. It has a few innovations. Um but but overall I think four centuries is it's a perfect time of period for Gothic to have been separated from the other languages. Uh mhm. So after Gothic leaves, it seems like we have uh northwest Germanic because uh both north and west Germanic they still seem to share a lot of innovations. U for instance the sound Z which in Gothic is found as Z or S. Uh in in Northwest Germanic it just becomes and later in all that is an R sound. uh in all of the northwest Germanic languages, but it it takes a while and it it becomes an R much earlier in some dialects than others. You also get vowel changes like unstressed vowels uh when they're diff thongs like in in in the dative singular you have wolfi that means like for a wolf uh in northwest Germanic it becomes wolf. So so you get these simplifications of vowels in some positions. Uh you also get some u some semantic developments um or or just you get changes.

[00:15:00]>> Yeah.

[00:15:01]>> Sorry. These developments you're referring to are shared north and west Germanic common elements.

[00:15:08]>> Uh and we can say then that the the there isn't actually something causing northwest Germanic to split from East Germanic other than the fact it's the east that split. So northwest Germanic is just Germanic basically uh that hasn't that remains in the Germanic homeland.

[00:15:25]>> So this this but there is like a theoretical idea and there's a Wikipedia page for northwest Germanic as a very brief period of unity before the divergence of north and west Germanics.

[00:15:39]Is that simply talking about like a common the common Germanic tongue after east Germanic has left before and before it diverges or is that all that northwest Germanic means?

[00:15:52]>> Yeah. So there definitely is a is a period of unity but but as you say it's it is quite brief because these changes we just don't have a lot of changes to be honest.

[00:16:02]>> Uh it's a couple of vowels. It's some words that that change. For instance, the second plural are like ye. Uh in Gothic, it's use or use. Whereas in uh northwest Germanic, it becomes ye. So there are these like small changes. U but but overall it's it's clearly a brief period.

[00:16:22]>> So the much more significant changes uh distinguishing west and uh north Germanic occur afterwards.

[00:16:32]>> Yeah. Uh I would I would actually say that even the changes that distinguish north and west Germanic, they're not that many either. Um a lot of things we think of as West Germanic, uh it's actually continental Germanic because English is not included in all of these changes. So if you look at low German and high German, they have a ton of similarities uh not just in pronunciation but but also in vocabulary. Like for instance, they use the preposition fun uh in its German form. We we never find that in English.

[00:17:03]Uh so it seems like West Germanic uh the whole family uh is only together for maybe two or 30 hundred years uh after Northwest Germanic has broken up and then most of the things we think of as North Germanic are are actually much later. If you look at the runic inscriptions from the even the sixth or seventh century uh these inscriptions are almost written in in what we would call protogermanic. There are a few minor changes but uh but they are very archaic >> because the protoor trans trans uh runic uh runic inscriptions have that zed sound at the end from protogermanic still. Is that correct?

[00:17:41]>> Uh well we don't know what the sound was. We we have a rune and we usually transliterate it as a zed. Uh but it just means that it was a separate sound from r. So we can't we have we really have no idea what the rune stood for. We know it was something like Z or Z or even but >> somewhere on the transition between a zed and an R.

[00:18:02]>> Yeah. And and I think we can well I don't think um we can actually know that it turn has turned into something that's no longer a zed because protons has an interesting sound change where uh voiced consonants at the end of words become unvoiced. So for instance uh in the imperative gang which means go uh this become this becomes gunk and then guck in old nor uh so if if the nominative singular or or you know the general ending z was still a z we would likely expect it to become an s but instead it doesn't and it retains its own weird sound value for well up to the 14th century actually on gotland which is where it lasts the longest.

[00:18:43]Let's go back to North and West and how they split because that period is really odd to me and especially I scratched my head over the MCO and colleagues genetic study from 2024 where they're showing the tumultuous event events in the in Denm what's now Denmark the Peninsula and the um and the and the takeover basically a population replacement in most of what's now Denmark after 500 AD where Northger Germanic languages evidently became the main languages but prior in Yutland. But prior to that there must have been some kind of continuum between West Germanic and North Germanic going across the Yutland Peninsula. And that's why I'm confused because from my understanding languages diverge from like the Goths from separation. But how do how do you um what can you tell us about the way north and west Germanic languages split that might give us some insight into why they split or how that happened.

[00:19:44]>> Well, they they must have split fairly early. I think u I think it because we have obviously as you as you are well familiar with the Anglo-Saxon invasion.

[00:19:54]Uh I'm not I'm not I'm not an expert on archaeology obviously but but it's my understanding that uh and I believe you talked about this in your documentary as well. A lot of these villages were almost emptied out. Like it was not just a small group of parat pirates, let's say young men going over. It was whole families, whole clans.

[00:20:10]>> Uh >> yeah, it was basically empty. The land was so empty in the southern part of Yulan Peninsula that the Slavs, the Wens were able to come and move in to the empty land and dwelt there until the Danes took it. Uh but the Yeah. So there was a population basically turnover in most of Yutland, but not at the very north. So the you the the youths who lived at the north presumably were West Germanic language speakers and they became integrated into the Danish uh people but I don't know about any influences of West Germanic utish people on Danish or that you maybe you know about that.

[00:20:47]>> Yeah. Well I don't I don't know if we could expect it because what we need to keep in mind is that in the fifth and sixth century north and west Germanic extremely similar. Um they're so they're probably so similar that a West Germanic group a West Germanic speaking group well to begin with they would be completely mutually intelligible and I can talk a bit later about that when we get to Baywolf but >> they would be so similar that the West Germanic group could probably assimilate without a trace into D >> especially once you get centralization once you get a strong sort of linguistic core at leot of beolf >> yeah at the big hall and you get the whole Danish kingdom unified they start doing these big uh these big fortifications, the Donovik.

[00:21:30]>> Yeah.

[00:21:32]>> Like you really get a a big centralization in Denmark and I think I think if there were West Germanic speakers left behind, they probably just assimilated uh and became completely normal Dan. Uh maybe they carried on the identity of youths, but it was no longer a tribe. It was just uh it was just a regional identifier. If you come from Japan, you're a youth, but it doesn't mean you >> it doesn't mean you're a different tribe. It just means you've come from a different part of the Danish realm. And we see that even in the oldest old Norse poetry. Uh the word youth is just synonymous with Dan.

[00:22:04]>> You can talk about the the Swedish king.

[00:22:06]He's an enemy of the Jews and the enemy of the Dan. But in effect, it just means he fights against the Danish kingdom >> because the D centralized quite early.

[00:22:15]>> Well, I found that a bit confusing. So as well in in Bearwolf I it's like okay so they talk about Ingvy the god as being as coming from the east Danes and I wonder to what extent from the Anglo-Saxon perspective the east Danes constituted a separate or distinct people and did that reflect a linguistic uh difference between West Denmark and East Denmark perhaps with West Denmark containing some preserving some like West Germanic elements Because I also saw someone talking about how the um like in until quite recently in modern history there were elements of Danish spoken in in in the Yutland Peninsula that weren't spoken on the Danish islands like the use of an equivalent to the very West Germanic traits in that uh in that region. Is that correct?

[00:23:09]>> I I know what you're referring to. And the reality is that all of Scandinavia was actually like today we think there's just Swedish, Danish, and then two weird forms of Norwegian and then of course Icelandic and Faroh and the extinct Norn. But in reality historically and even up until the 19th century, the early 20th century in fact all of Scandinavia was split into these tiny dialect areas with huge differences between them. Um I don't know if you are familiar with Yolites this or Scots I mean these archaic forms of English but it was something to that effect like these dialects were not mutually intelligible at all >> and so utish um was very divergent and it probably did have an influence from German but but that I think that is far later I think that's influence from low German postic >> from from the potato Germans probably >> yeah because we have inscriptions from Jutland uh runic inscriptions and it's just normal Danish it's it It's well it's it's Viking age Danish with with some Norwegian influence actually likely because they were sailing from South Norway uh to Jutland back and forth and that's why they say e for instance in the first person uh pronoun and it's because they uh is because that's the that's the west form e which has been simplified rather than east form yak which is why Danish gets y and Swedish gets y.

[00:24:26]>> Yeah.

[00:24:28]>> But should I should I talk about ing? I think I I want to talk a little bit about about the east, right?

[00:24:34]>> Yeah. East stains and beewolf and what what's it talking about east danes there. What? Yeah.

[00:24:40]>> Well, well, a minor correction. I think the eastane well I think eastains may be found in Beaywolf, but I think the specific part you're referring to which >> Oh, the runic poem. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry.

[00:24:49]Yeah.

[00:24:50]>> Runic poem.

[00:24:51]>> Yeah, they're mentioned in Bewolf as well.

[00:24:54]>> Yeah. Yeah. So, so the thing about these these words like east danes and in we also get south danes and I I believe we get west danes and probably north danes as well. We get danes and then these various uh these various prefixes which are cardinal directions. I think it's generally agreed upon today that these prefixes are just there uh for the alliteration. So if they need a vowel they will call them east. If they have if they need to alliterate with w they will call them west and so forth. Uh so it's generally agreed upon that they probably do not represent like unique subdivisions of the Danes. Um they're just used for the alliteration. But that's in the preserved poetry. It is of course possible that originally because the Danish realm was so large and and so populous for for its time and you know for Scandinavia, northern ger northern Europe in general, it's quite possible that these originally carried a more distinct or specific u tribal or geographical significance but but that's probably lost in uh when we see it in in old old English poetry. So when we hear that ing was first seen among the eastanes, we should probably just think that it means that he was first seen among the Danes and that east is only there to alliterate with ing because both begin in vowels. So I guess that would be my boring answer because of course I'd love for it to be a more >> uh like a more a more specific thing.

[00:26:17]But the other reason I asked it is because >> from what I understand Bearwolf, let's not get into the dating of the poem itself and and that big argument, but the it's this it's set roughly around 500.

[00:26:34]>> Correct. And that's also when McColl and colleagues find that the turnover is happening that causes the D, you know, the solidification of the Danish ethnic group in Denmark. But uh so this wouldn't be long enough for the east and west to be distinct as peoples because they would have only just we don't see like much evidence of dia referred to before that time. So uh I wonder about that and uh about the the horns of Galahus as well. I wanted to ask your your take on on on them as from the runes on the horns of Galahost like h how e is it even possible to identify whether they are right written in a north or west Germanic language.

[00:27:24]>> Yeah. Um I I guess I'll get to the I I'll get to the Danes. I'll talk a little bit about the Danes first. So, um, let me let me >> and the dating of Bewolf and the the time Bel is set cuz you're saying like the Danes are, you know, like they would just would have thought of the utes as a type of Dane. Maybe at the time Bearwolf was written, but I'm not sure if at 500 AD that would have been whether whether the poet has retroactively imposed the Danish identity onto the migration era in a way that might be an anacronistic because of that's how Danes were understood at the time by the courtly audiences of the poem.

[00:28:02]>> Yeah. So, so you're right actually. I I don't believe the the dutes are equated with Danes in Beaywolf, but in later Norse poetry they are. Uh >> actually judes only appear in Beaywolf.

[00:28:13]Well, we have two words and they they look identical in the manuscript. Uh and both are written in the plural oran.

[00:28:21]>> Mhm.

[00:28:22]>> Uh and we can this can be interpreted either as youths uh which lives in the so-called Finsburg episode because that's where we find a fight between Dan and Trishians and youths. Uh and that's the only place in Bewolf I I believe. Uh wait, let let me check this. Uh, I'm going I'm going to check this actually so I don't say anything stupid, but I'm fairly certain it really only appears Yeah. Um, yeah. Okay. So, I was right.

[00:28:48]Uh, so the word in Bearwolf, it only appears uh in a single episode, and that's a so-called Finsburg episode, >> uh, which which describes a big like whole fight. And it's sort of a story in that story because >> it's like a it's like a micropein beolf that's told at one of the feasts in the poem. uh and it tells us about a great fight between Danes and Fians and youths and that's the only place in Beaywolf where youths appear. So clearly to the Beaywolf poem poet um the Judes and the Danes are distinct ethnic groups but by the 9th century when we start to get old Norse poetry the youths and the Danes have merged completely. Um but let's talk a bit about the the historical background of Beaywolf. Uh well well of course you don't want to go into the dating but I will say that linguistic dating probably makes it fairly certain that Beaywolf was composed uh in the in the early 8th century or maybe even the late 7th century. So it's one of our oldest old English poems >> and by far our oldest historical source for any of this apart from like jordanis when he talks about her and so on but but that's very brief and and likely based largely on her u so the thing about beaywolf is that we can tell from the proper names of beaywolf that when this poem was uh when we can tell from the proper names of beaywolf that when the stuff that is you know the the narrative core of the poem and I'm not talking about the monster fights but you know uh the Danish kingdom and the Yetish kingdom and so on when all of this stuff made its way over from Scandinavia to England u the languages were exceptionally similar uh beaywolf was clearly transmitted uh to England at the point when protonors was basically protogerermanmanic uh for instance there's there's a king in Beaywolf who's called >> and then how was that trans translated into old English >> uh well his name in beaywolf is onela u and Proton Norse his name would have been Anola. Uh but in old Norse his name is Ali. Uh because this new new thing has just disappeared and nasalized the vowel. Uh >> but that name Anola is attested is in a runic inscription from uh from the Nudenberg is it not?

[00:30:54]>> You're right. You're right. Uh and that's where we get the proton form.

[00:30:57]It's probably not the same king though because this Anula is is a lot earlier.

[00:31:01]I think it's from the 3rd century.

[00:31:04]So, so it's probably a different king, but it's if it's a king, it may be a sheep or just a great warrior, but it's clearly the same name. So, it shows a a continuing tradition. Uh, and in be wolf. Yeah. So, in be wolf you have on in proton you have anula and that's where the old English form must have come from because by old Norris times even like in the 8th century the old Nor pronunciation would have been Ali not to be confused with Ali you know another common modern Scandinavian name.

[00:31:32]>> Mhm. Fascinating. Well, yeah. I I like Darkfinsk's argument that it was composed originally in u you know, western Sweden and then it would have been a traveling bard who brought I think he dates it origin um composition and then brought over sometime after that into England. When would when would you imagine it was brought to England? I don't think the poem itself was ever brought to England.

[00:32:04]But I think I mean if we look at the language of Beaywolf, it's clearly to begin with it's a Christian poem. Uh there is a lot >> those Christian parts are embellishments on an earlier story.

[00:32:15]>> Well no I I think the earlier story is pre-Christian. I have no doubt that Rothgar and Online and even Beowolf if he existed I have no doubt that these people were fully pagan as were their descendants you know for centuries more.

[00:32:28]But um when Beaywolf itself was composed u the poet was Christian and we can tell that it's an old English poem because it requires old English old English sound changers to work. That's why we can date it to the early 7th century but it has to be composed in England as a unified work.

[00:32:45]>> Um and also they I well I do believe that the Christian parts are they are of course embellishments to the story but they're not inserts into the poem.

[00:32:54]Right. We have to make this distinction.

[00:32:57]Christian parts in Beaywolf, they are just as archaic and just as they're written in the exact same language and style and meter and everything as the rest of the poem. So, whoever wrote Beaywolf was Christian and he was an Englishman as well, but he had learned all of these stories about Dan and he wanted to retell them in a in a new and interesting epic for a Christian audience, but likely a audience which had not been Christian very long, which is why Baywolf is so archaic, you know, in in the way it presents Scandinavia.

[00:33:24]And there are even illusions to pagan sacrifices in Baywolf.

[00:33:29]>> I do wonder whether it ever existed in an old English pagan form or whether it was translated directly from a pagan or proton-orse form into a Christian old English form.

[00:33:40]>> Yeah, I think I think it probably did exist in a pagan English form. Actually, a lot of these legends just from the names, it's I I think it's unlikely that even in the seventh century u they could have made their way over from Scandinavia. It has to be in the sixth century and at that point the English were still pagan as were the Scandinavians. So I think it's quite likely all of these stories were originally pagan.

[00:34:02]>> Well the the argument that Darth Vincere makes using archaeology rather than linguistics is that can't have come over in that early because of some of the um the hall culture and the uh berni armor or something. It's like vendel era developments in Sweden. So, and this the collar I can't there's something he uses the collar you can see these iron age collars the chain mail and the hall type as like developments that mean it can be dated to a certain time and I can't remember the exact argument but I think he was saying it must have come it can't have come over it can't have been brought by the original Anglo-Saxon migrants to England because >> no I don't I don't think it was brought by the Anglo-Saxons either I think it was brought probably by Danish I I think even by Danish merchants or seafarers I think Baywolf I will actually say uh this is something very interesting about Beaywolf. Beaywolf is a thoroughly pro- Danish poem. Uh Beaywolf is not Swedish in the in the slightest >> argument that it's west Swedish like Guts or Yates against >> anti-phere but uh >> yeah.

[00:35:09]>> Yeah. Right. So Beaywolf Well well I think we should make that distinction because these are still separate tribes and Beaywolf hates Beaywolf hates. I mean objective like like the people of Maladolan and the Malor Valley Beaywolf hates sweets. Um >> the only places where sweets occur in Beaywolf or in their relationship with the Jeets and and to a lesser extent to the Danes and and the Swedes are portrayed basically as bloodthirsty Odinic pagan worshippers. They they want to hang you know the good gs and trees and sacrifice them and give them to the ravens and they taunt them. Um there's a famous episode in Beaywolf where they fight in in a forest uh and the geese are surrounded and the they're besieged by sweets who are you know shouting threats at them that they're going to sacrifice them and hang them on trees and going to give and going to give them to ravens. Although the poem itself doesn't make it explicit that this is a sacrifice to warden. I mean what else could it be when you're hanging people as a sacrifice to ravens?

[00:36:05]>> I mean it's obviously a description of the evil pagan Swedes against the good Christian geese. Of course, the the historical geese were also pagan, but but the beaywolf poet, he he wants the gates to be the good guys. And the dings are also the good guys, while the Swedes >> only ever appear, you know, as as the evil villains trying to kill the good people.

[00:36:23]>> And this this political like pro- dane pro gates or gats and anti- sphere thing can't really have had much relevance to Anglo-Saxons who probably weren't that, you know, bothered about the distinctions between them as much, especially in in the time. So I guess those this bias, this anti-phere bias is something native to the original proton story.

[00:36:47]>> I think that's very likely. Yeah, I I definitely think so. Uh and likely the original story is still portrayed the geese and Dan as good guys, but probably they weren't Christian. And that's that's a later edition uh a later addition in the in the old English poem.

[00:37:01]>> Mhm.

[00:37:04]Can we you were going to say something more about um can you tell me the the horns of Galahus like does that give us any insight into the dating when east and west north uh east and west Germanic start to >> sorry north north and west Germanic.

[00:37:23]>> Yeah it does it does to some degree because we can clearly tell from these horns that they are north Germanic.

[00:37:30]But what's interesting is that we can tell they're north Germanic not from any unique North Germanic innovations because actually the horn incription apart from the presence of a llout which is also found in West Germanic. It's a common northwest Germanic feature so it doesn't tell us anything. U these horns are they're completely like protogerermanic.

[00:37:48]There's there's nothing really archaic.

[00:37:50]I mean no sorry there's nothing innovative about the horns at all >> uh in the inscription. And of course it's just on one horn uh the inscription uh but but that actually tells us something because West Germanic very early on long before the horns uh West Germanic has had the loss of word finals. Uh so we have a comb for instance uh which is likely written in an extremely early form of West German manic and on it it says kaba k a b a and that that's ka the word for comb and we know from other inscriptions to say that west Germanic had these features so much earlier than the horns because I thought the horns are dated to the beginning of the fifth century.

[00:38:35]So how much how much longer had western manic existed before then?

[00:38:40]So the comb it's it's from the it's from the late third or early fourth century.

[00:38:45]It's from earthfort fringe in Germany.

[00:38:49]I'm sure I'm not pronouncing this perfectly but yeah. Yeah it is. Okay. So it's from central Germany. Uh so this comb is from like it's probably from the late 3rd century. So it's much much earlier than the gal whose horns. Uh and already on this comb we have the loss of nominative singular or just probably just Z at the end of any word. Uh and what this can tell us is that u if the galus horn were west Germanic, we would also see the sound change, but we don't.

[00:39:16]Um and so there are really two but there are two possibilities here. Uh it's possible that their dutes may actually have been like an intermediate v variety of north and west Germanic. So it's possible they just didn't have the sound change at all. Uh and it may it may even have spread from like southern Germany up because we do find it in Singinja in the 3rd century and that's pretty far south.

[00:39:35]>> Yeah. such an early time before the fall of the Roman Empire.

[00:39:39]>> I So I wanted to ask a couple of things that you conclude. When exactly do you think that West and North Germanic are begin to diverge? Because if it's that early, it's very early then. It's like they really wasn't very long period of Northwest Germanic in that case. And also I thought that the uh I mean where Galahus is I went there last year. It's really far south.

[00:40:03]seems to me in the territory of the Angles, not the territory of the Dutes, but I don't discount the possibility that it was not made locally. Maybe it was made in Zealand or far away and that would explain why it would have north Germanic inscription.

[00:40:17]>> Yeah, that's right. I mean, there was there was clearly trade and these people could understand each other. Certainly at that time they couldn't understand each other perfectly. Uh I mean even even even when Beaywolf made it over there are no indications in Beaywolf that they had troubles understanding the Danes like from the poem it's clear that the story could be transmitted perfectly and that then we're talking about an epic poem like that's that's actual literature it uses canning it uses a lot of very difficult expressions >> and syntax inversions and so on. So for something simple like trade or you know buying or having let's say commissioning a comb like this um I have no doubt they could understand each other perfectly.

[00:40:55]>> So it's not at all clear that it was made locally. I but but I think the archaeologists could probably they could probably tell from style and so on.

[00:41:03]>> Well they haven't really got the original. They've only got 18th century or 16th century drawings which 17th century drawings sorry which are very influenced by 17th century artistic style. So, we haven't got an exact copy anywhere to know what the style really is, but you can infer there's some stuff. I mean, most I think the best way of dating it is the runes because we don't have the original artifact. We don't have the original context and we don't have the original, you know, drawings even properly accurate >> of it. But I would say that um yeah, I mean I I would I would confidently say that that period that it was buried and where it was buried is West Germanic speaking. So the if the runes are northger Germanic then I think it must have been made somewhere else because I can't it would be very unusual especially now the DNA evidence shows that the north Germanic takeover happened like a hundred years after that those horns were deposited in that region. It doesn't make sense that the people there would be speaking northger Germanic.

[00:42:00]>> Yeah. No no you're you're completely right. Um but as I said it it is definitely a possibility that they were speaking a sort of intermediate variety because we should remember the youths the ones who stayed behind they would have been assimilated into the Danes but the ones who migrated with the Anglo-Saxons they may have been assimilated into Anglo-Saxon >> and Anglo-Saxon um was spoken further south. So it's possible that some of their north Germanic like features were just obliterated uh due to the mixing of the locally arrived migrants uh with each other when they came to England. But actually North Umbrean old English in particular does preserve some very northmanic like features within an old English framework. For instance, for the third plural, they say uh which is like old Nor instead of the sind which is normal in in other old English and that's that's West Germanic form and originally just u wait let me rephrase. So North Umbrean all the English it actually shares a lot of innovations uh with North Germanic u that are completely unique to North Germanic and these are things that are not trivial um so for instance >> and they're not things that arrived in the Viking age >> no they are much earlier they're much earlier and we can tell they're earlier because already in Cadman's hymn in the North Umbrean versions we see some of these features for instance they replace the pro the preposition to which means to right they replace it with till which is an extremely North Germanic future.

[00:43:28]>> Mhm.

[00:43:29]>> And and it's not it's not something that just happens that you replace because till is originally a noun.

[00:43:35]>> Uh it means like with a goal having the goal of and that's why it takes the genative as well. Um so so these are very >> the angles themselves spoke a language with more northgermanic elements than Saxons spoke. I think that's likely and I think it's actually likely that the Dutes spoke a language that was even more North Germanic because ultimately this would have been a continuum. That's how the northwest Germanic the common changes could spread all over the continuum.

[00:44:04]>> And so we do find several features of old English and especially of certain old English dialects that are much more like North Germanic than than southern West Germanic like high German or even Dutch and Saxon.

[00:44:20]So that's very interesting. So what when we're getting to the point where the Vikings are coming to England and a lot of them are coming into North Umbrea, the northern part of England, but that makes the the mutual intelligibility even more strong. Do you want to talk about the the your your what you said about your blog about the Battle of Molden at all?

[00:44:43]>> Yeah. Um well well I I would first say that I don't think these changes although they are more like North Germanic I don't think they make a huge impact uh because they are fairly few and far between although of course if you hear thron as an old as an old speaker that then that that sounds much more like than if you're hearing thind um then you really have no idea what they're saying because s is completely foreign. So in some cases they can help but I think for the most part these these similarities don't do very much.

[00:45:12]Um but about the mutual intell intelligibility I think I think it has been both understated and overstated. I think when they were talking about simple things or even quite complex topics, as long as they're in their sort of as long as they're in the right semantic realm, let's say they they're dealing with warfare or ships, anything of this sort, you know, the traditional culture that the Anglo Saxons brought with them, you know, the sort of paratical North Sea culture, I think they can understand each other well, very well. Um, >> so actually one of the one of the most fascinating examples I remember >> sorry I was just thinking of Neil Price refers to the boat grave culture. Have you heard of his theory where he links like you know everything from East Anglia England to u Vendal era Malar Valley as one as the boat grave culture which is an interesting archaeological perspective.

[00:46:06]Yeah, I had no doubt that u that this was a real thing, but also that the linguistics of it are so similar because when you're trading like this, you get you get all the same words for for the things you're doing.

[00:46:16]>> Uh that seems to have happened. Um but the battle of Maldon, it's very interesting because you get well what was the battle of Maldon, right? It was a battle between an Anglo-Saxons and and some Scandinavian pirates. They were fighting each other. It's actually not impossible that that they were settled the Danes on the side of the Anglo-Saxons uh because the pirates were fresh from Scandinavia invading and at this point there were a lot of Danes in England who may have fought u on the English side just because the pirates would have probably not made a great distinction between ethnic Danes and Anglo-Saxons when they were just you know coming to coming to raid. Uh well the battle ended quite poorly for the English. they uh had to pay £10,000 of silver which is that's almost£3 million British pounds today. Um so the English lost but they composed a poem about it.

[00:47:04]So in some sense they they wrote well the winners don't always write history.

[00:47:09]I think a better maxim would be the literate people write history. Uh, so in this case, a Viking messenger arrives and he starts speaking to the to the Anglo-Saxons and he he he makes I'm probably not going to read the speech actually, but he he makes a very a very sarcastic and rude speech uh where he says that uh either you you give us money for protection or we will u or things will end badly for you. Although he's he's not very explicit about it.

[00:47:40]He's he's just sarcastic and you know saying that you will lose so it's best if you give us money.

[00:47:46]>> Mhm.

[00:47:46]>> But what's what's really interesting about this passage is that the whole speech uses it uses a very stripped down and simple Germanic vocabulary.

[00:47:57]It it uses word like almost every word in this passage has a direct cognate in old Norse which also means the same. So for instance he begins his speech which means valiant sailors or I suppose pirates seaman sent me to you. Uh and you can you can render this identically in old Norse Mixendo Sam and every word has a direct cognitive and then you go on through the poem or not not the whole poem of the battle of Maldon but especially this part and it's just Scandinavian word after Scandinavian word or or words that are cognit but that look identical and and mean the same thing in both both languages. And we actually do get we actually do get the Scandinavian loan word here. we get the word g where he says will in old English which means that if you give us gold will give you a pledge right we'll give you peace we'll spare you essentially this word grid which means uh a peace pact or a pledge that you will not be violent against someone that's that's an old nor slow word it does not exist in native old English >> interesting >> so there clearly is some sort of some sort of influence >> so this poem is either the result of a pre-existent like Anglo Danish Creole being spoken or is it possible also that it's depicting a a a form of speech that became common in the Dan law or a North Sea kind of creole dialect where people deliberately spoke in a manner that they knew the other the other language speaker would be more able to understand.

[00:49:37]>> Yeah, I I think you're I think you're right on the money there. I think that's exactly what we're dealing with. Um because the old English it's it's grammatically perfect for its time. Like there's nothing weird about it but it's it's just so simple.

[00:49:49]>> Every word has a clear parallel in old Norris with like two exceptions and they are extremely transparent. Uh you have gavo which means gift that's not in old nor but it's almost identical to job and as an old nor speaker you can easily tell what what it means. So I think I think probably this poem was composed very closely to the events it depicts and so the the poet he really wants to you know convey the the speech of a Norseman and so he uses these simple words which Norman would likely have used because I think although these languages were probably not mutually intelligible fully like if if you're an old Norse speaker and you hear two Anglo-Saxons walking past you and they're talking whatever they're talking you can probably not understand everything they're saying but once you're communicating like this and you both sides really want to get something said, uh they will get themselves understood quite well. And also if you know old Norse, old English is extremely easy and vice versa. Uh these languages are they're so similar that you can learn the other uh very quickly. So I think likely what the poet is trying to convey is he's trying to he's trying to convey the speech of a horseman just like I don't know let's say you let's say you're writing a a text with a Chinese American character and you you you make like a give him a stereotypical accent and you know some grammatical errors you know they make right I think we're dealing with something like this he's really trying to convey that sense in the poem >> and that also indicates that the poem is it's composed quite quite close to the events it depicts >> because I I think it's unlikely a detail like this would be preserved uh much later.

[00:51:20]>> I wonder even if the when you're from your comparison if the the the poet as he's performing the battle of Molden would have used an amusing accent for the for the titilation of the audience that people would recognize as as a Danish accent that from from Danish merchants or whatever if there was still some present.

[00:51:41]>> Oh yeah, I think that's I think that's very likely. Uh there's another very fun thing here and that's that the Dan are called dangir at one point or dangar uh which is the old Norse form. Um and in old Norse this word just means like young man uh but in old English it's not a real word. Uh so he's clearly borrowing the word uh well actually let me let me rephrase in >> he's turning ethnm he's turning a native Danish word for young man into an ethnm or an exonym to refer to Danes in general.

[00:52:15]>> Exactly. Or specifically to the pirates.

[00:52:17]I'm not sure we know if they were Norwegians or Danes. U but yeah in old Norse he means like brave boys, you know, brave men. Uh but it's not an old English word and yet he uses it. Uh Mhm.

[00:52:28]So so it's quite likely that they had close contact and even they were probably even familiar with what these guys spoke like like what they called themselves and you know their sort of ideology of paratical bravery and you know their their ideals of masculinity and you know what a what a true danger should be like.

[00:52:47]>> It's quite likely the English were fully aware of this.

[00:52:50]>> But this is quite late. This poem is from the it's from 991 uh AD. So it's uh it's almost at the end of the of the Viking period or at least um no it's not at the end of the Viking period but it's toward the latter half of the Viking period for sure and it's long after the Vikings have been there for centuries and the assimilated Danes and so on.

[00:53:12]>> In Absala I used to see a choir a male choir singing called or danger.

[00:53:18]Is that is that the the modern cognate?

[00:53:21]>> Yeah it is. Um, actually in modern Swedish, it's funny in modern Danish, uh, dang means, uh, boy. It it's it's one of the normal words for boy still.

[00:53:31]Um, but in modern Swedish, it actually means a farm hand, and it's it's even a derogatory term.

[00:53:37]>> Uh, because these da, they used to be these farm hands who would, uh, they didn't have permanent employment. So they would go around causing trouble and you know getting into fight with the local the local villagers and the local forming youth >> basically lads I get would be a good translation perhaps. I don't know.

[00:53:55]>> Yeah I think it would be a great translation.

[00:53:58]>> Um >> although we can just mean forehand as well. Another like interesting thing about reconstructed early Germanic languages that helps us to date them and match them up with the archaeological and genetic record is loan words from other languages. And I know that like it seems that the the uh pre- Roman Iron Age, a period in the archeological record when we see a lot of influence from Celtic and even some genetic influence on the Germanic gene pool from Kelts. So that would be a reasonable period to assume that the loan words from pro from Celtic entered into protogermanic. Um is that right?

[00:54:39]>> Yeah it would it certainly would and uh we can actually tell the loan words are quite late because they they don't undergo grims law. So for instance the word Bernie if it had undergone grim's law it wouldn't have been like peri in almost pinia but it's it keeps that be and same with words like hostage u uh I can't I can't think of that many Celtic loan words off the top of my head but I think it's clear from from the sounds.

[00:55:05]Yeah.

[00:55:07]>> Um is king is kuning from Celtic? Uh isa is as in iron that's from Celtic. Yeah, >> king is not from Celtic. But u there is a synonym of king which is from Celtic and that's Reeks.

[00:55:21]>> That's what I was thinking of. Reeks.

[00:55:22]Yeah.

[00:55:23]>> Kuning. It actually means like the man of a family or like the man of race. I suppose you could even translate it.

[00:55:29]>> Yeah, that's Yeah, but that gets loaned into Finnick very early as well. So >> yeah, it does. So there there's like a there's like a sort of chain of loan words going on where um well the Kelts I mean archaeology archaeologically they have a much more sophisticated culture and more they have a greater population and so on. So they are the ones who are loaning words into Germanic rather than vice versa but then the then the Germany are much more sophisticated in Sweden for instance and in Finland um than the native Finn or Uralic speakers. So they're loaning a bunch of words into uralic and actually the influence of Germanic on uralic it's a long it's a long story but it's much more it's much deeper uh than the influence of Celtic on Germanic. It's likely they were even um bilingual speakers probably for generations who spoke both languages and they were intermaring and lots of things were going on there in >> Finland and it show so it shows a very old Germanic presence in in uh Fenoscandia whatever but also what's odd about this very natural and self-explanatory sort of formula you've just discussed where the the more developed culture is is more likely to loan words into the less developed culture. But then when we enter the Roman Iron Age and see an enormous influence of the Roman material culture on Germanic people, we don't see a huge influx of italic blood and we don't see a huge influx of Latin loans in the in the lang. There are some I' like I saw in that I talked about in my route to the Saxons film there's the scamula or something some kind of example of a >> of of a Latin a Germanized Latin loan.

[00:57:14]I'm sure there were those. But why do you think can you talk a bit about Latin influences on on um early west Germanic early proto would be by that stage you're talking about like um northwest Germanic I guess and um proto west Germanic or what what what sort of uh influences can we see from Latin?

[00:57:37]>> They are very very slight. Uh I would honestly I mean I can't I cannot I can hardly think of a single example to be honest of word off the top of my head.

[00:57:46]I'm sure the wait I should I >> know there are some words like um uh sal is it salv like uh the word the English word salv has a Latin root I'm sure but via a Germanic which came in before the Anglo-Saxon before the migration. So it would have been loaned into uh West Germanic prior to the migration. Uh as in I don't know.

[00:58:15]Well, >> yeah. So there there are a few there are a few Latin known words. Um uh which one did you say again? Sal.

[00:58:23]>> Uh I I recall it was salv as in um as in medical salve, you know.

[00:58:28]>> Oh, but I think I think that is much later. Uh to me that seems more like something loaned in the old English period. Uh >> yeah. Well, it's in old English, but I thought um there was some evidence that it was pre I don't know, but there was I I can't think of any off the top of my head, and you can't either.

[00:58:43]>> So, even if there are some very many >> actually I I mean, I I looked them up on Wictionary. There are a few. U for instance, anchor. Uh they also loan the word for a co the coin.

[00:58:54]>> Uh but they use it to refer to to a specific weight. Uh and in old Norse, it just comes to mean silver.

[00:59:00]>> Uh they also loan the word for emperor Kaiseras. Um they they loan the word for cats. They loan the word for kettle. Uh they >> they do loan one verb. I think they loan they they borrow one or two verbs. Uh and these verbs are to buy.

[00:59:18]>> That tells you a lot.

[00:59:21]>> And what's that last second one? Readen.

[00:59:24]>> To write >> to write. Okay. Yeah.

[00:59:26]>> But actually it it seems to only refer to writing. It's it's probably not something that was present in protogerermanic because it only refers to writing Latin letters. Uh when you write Germanic letters, you always use the word which is where English get this word risk the runes, right? Or they would never say scre run or whatever.

[00:59:50]>> Uh no, they would never do that. Uh you always uh re you or maybe you you >> actually you you were right about you were right about salv actually. U but according to dictionary it's not even a lone word. Uh it's it's just a native Germanic word. I think that that sounds a bit strange actually. I I thought it was a lone word.

[01:00:10]>> Native Germanic word but it has a Latin origin root. That's what I thought was odd.

[01:00:15]>> No according according to victionary it's just an I mean you can cut this out. Of course, >> I'll leave in it's good that we show what we don't know as well.

[01:00:23]>> Yeah. Yeah. A according to Wictionary, it's just uh it's just a native it's a native formation from protoinduropean inherited. But I find that very unlikely because it's only found in West Germanic.

[01:00:34]>> Uh it's not found in Gothic and it's not found in Norse and it's actually borrowed into uh North Germanic from low German. Uh and it seems like such a cultural word. It seems like >> I think there was a word like salvos in or something very similar in Latin that was >> I mean there I mean there's salvation right but I think I think that's different uh no I don't I don't think it's present there um the the Latin cognitive is sulfur according to >> well we can say that there was some limited Latin influence but it does sort of disrupt that that rule that you discussed us and it's quite interesting to to show like the very complicated relationship that the Germanic culture had with the Roman world where it was hugely influenced by it at the same time restricted the way that it could be influenced by it. So there wasn't like a lot of Latin influx of words or DNA even though they self-consciously introduced Latin origin like you know like the organization of of the Germanic village is argued to be based on a Roman military camp. The cult house is argued to be the motivation for the introduction of the temple in Germanic culture where previously gods have been worshiped al fresco to use.

[01:01:56]>> Um but one of the one of my patrons has asked me to ask you something relevant to this um >> about the origin of runes. He asked whether you prefer a a route that involves a a direct uh italic influence such as from a truskan or whether the via you know via pontic via Celtic influence or is is more plausible to you. Well, I'm not I'm unfortunately not too familiar with with North Italic, but I think I think it's quite clear that runes have um one thing is clear and they're not directly derived from Latin.

[01:02:37]>> They they have a lot of similarities with North Italic. I should I should have looked this question up earlier actually if you had if you had asked me.

[01:02:43]Sorry, I only got it just this morning.

[01:02:45]Like uh but I just thought Yeah, it's like it it's it's Is there anything you're aware of that gives lends weight to one or the other?

[01:02:54]Whether it's a direct influence from interactions with because I know that is it the NGO helmet has like very sort of a Truskan like influences all over it or is that correct? And then and then whereas like I know Jackson Crawford is keen on this pontic root route for runes into Germanic.

[01:03:14]>> Yeah. I mean I think I think it cannot be directly a truskan because if you look even at the nagawa helmet if you look at the letter H on the NGO helmet it's written like a boxy eight a boxy letter eight whereas the Germanic letter H is obviously the same as the Latin.

[01:03:30]that is it has two it has two lines and then a crossbar in the middle. Uh so I do think it's it's probably not directed from a truskin from what I know of the truskin. Uh it seems unlikely. With that said uh they were actually although they were mostly in Scandinavia we have some very fun linguistic evidence that shows that they were quite familiar with continental European circumstances even from a very early period. Uh and that's the word Carpathians uh the mountain chain.

[01:04:00]Because actually the word Carpathians was borrowed into protogermanic long before even the Celtic loan words were borrowed because it under goes grim's law which the Celtic and the Latin words do not.

[01:04:13]>> Uh so it was probably borrowed in like 700 BC >> and then it comes down to us in old Norse. Yeah, it's crazy before protomanic.

[01:04:23]That's like pre-Germanic or is 700 BC because I thought protogermanic is only dated to like 500 BC.

[01:04:31]>> Yeah. Well, maybe I could say something shortly about the dating of protogerermanic. So when we say that protogermanic is dated to a certain period, what we really mean is just that this is when it becomes recognizably like the language that later um this is when it becomes recognizably like the variety of protogermanic which later splits up all the variety branches we have. But that doesn't mean that there were sorry >> it's the it's the last common ancestral form in >> well it's not the last the last common ancestral form of protoanic is unlikely to be in 500 BC uh because the gods only live in 50 BC so it's not 500 BC but it's it's when Grim's law has has been undertaken and so on and you get a language that's very similar to the last common ancestor >> because before that you have pre-protogermanic or pre-Germanic and and it's it's actually it's the same language anguage. It doesn't mean that they were replaced or started speaking another language. It just means that the language is it looks a bit different >> and it's it's so different that we can't really call it the same language anymore.

[01:05:32]>> So, we should think of the the late Nordic Bronze Age people as essentially Germanic people speaking a Germanic tongue.

[01:05:39]>> Uh and it it was at the end of the Nordic Bronze Age that this they had knowledge of the Carpathians presumably from merchants going along those routes.

[01:05:50]>> Yeah. Uh but I mean the fact that they have a they have this geographical term it probably indicates that they have some interest in geography as well >> like they're probably going there uh maybe trading amber or you know as mercenaries >> I bet they were I bet I bet they really were. I have a couple of other questions um from from my patrons. the same chap, an Irishman, he asks, "Uh, do you prefer Germano Italo Celtic or Germano Baltos Slavic as a as a kind a common route?"

[01:06:21]>> Uh, I think I think to be honest, Germanic does not have a lot in common with either of them. I think I think most of the similarities you could find with Italo Celtic, they're cultural. Uh, for instance, the word o there are many of these cultural words shared between Germanic and Celtic. For instance, the word oath uh is shared between Germanic and Celtic.

[01:06:40]These similarities are just because of loans and not because of a common like late late route.

[01:06:46]>> Yeah, I think they probably are are from later later cultural interactions with Taliseltic.

[01:06:52]Um I mean you get you also get the word king. Uh you do get it in a native Germanic form as well. Um but I mean is is that maybe an earlier loan from Celtic as well or is it properly Germanic? I think it's hard to say. Um I would say though that the the similarities between Germanic and Boltoslavic they do exist and I think they are more convincing. Uh but the question is could these have been assimilated from the battleax substrate in Scandinavia? Because we know uh we know that there was a battleax culture substrate in Scandinavia that was largely replaced >> um by the later single grave culture. um and you know eventually the Nordic Bronze Age and you can tell from the Hapler groups uh with the Nordic Bron the Nordic Bronze Age is has I1 it has R1B and it has R1A but the back battle sculpture is almost entirely R1A >> and so it probably has affinities to the Balttos and then the question but we can also tell from the we can tell from the way their H group survive that they're not completely replaced there are a lot of modern male descendants as well so they were clearly assimilated uh and in western Norway and Northern Sweden. In fact, R1A is more common than R1B in parts. It's it's a pretty big difference actually and R1A is much more common including deep subclates. So, it's not just a subfounder.

[01:08:11]>> Yeah.

[01:08:11]>> So, I think it's quite likely that uh these battleax people, they probably spoke a very similar Germanic language.

[01:08:18]No, I'm sorry.

[01:08:19]>> Slavic language. Yeah.

[01:08:20]>> Yeah. the the Bak probably spoke a very similar in the European language to the Baltto Slavs but that language was also quite similar uh to the language of the Nordic bronze age the later Nordic Bronze Age because both of these cultures do come out of corded wear so this is speaking European so I think it's quite likely that the Boltoslavs or let's say the paraboltoslavic uh batlax culture is assimilated into the Nordic pawn stage and that's where we get a lot of there there are actually a lot of similarities between Boltoslavic and Germanic in terms of like verbs uh for instance the verb for people uh the in Germanic it's in old Norse it's leader in protogerermanic it would be le these this has a clearity in in in in Slavic and in multic >> yeah and then because the single grave culture I believe is the corded wear source in bellbea culture it's not the the actual genetics papers don't say which corded wear source they just say that bellbeaker comes out of a cordedware source but the the local cordedware source is single grave. So it's the most rational explanation. Uh well then in that case it would be and if Belbeaker is the root of Kelto Celtic which it is I'm sure um that might explain some of the like also similarities to that because in the Nordic before the Nordic Bronze Age as this single grave like southern culture is mixing with the battle axe culture to make uh you know the Nordic Bronze Age happen. there may be some elements from like a more Slavic like and and a more Celtic-l like language mixing together to make Germanic.

[01:09:57]>> Yeah, I think that I think that's quite likely. Um although Germanic is it's a remarkably pure branch when you compare it to uh to most other Induropean languages although so so are Celtic and I suppose italic as well and Btoslavic.

[01:10:11]Uh if we had an earlier form of could we we have a Germanic attested much earlier than Slavic or Baltic. So maybe that's distorting the uh >> possibly. Uh could I say something about the substrate or did you have more questions? I if if you >> um there's only one other but I think you're what you want to say about the substrate is probably worth saying.

[01:10:34]>> Yeah. So I mean I know a lot of people are familiar with the Germanic substrate theory. Uh but it's >> the beam at this stage.

[01:10:41]>> Yeah. I I I don't think I don't think it happened. Uh I don't think Germanic has a unique substrate. uh that >> you don't think it's a pre-Inindo-uropean substrate which is what many memes seem to imply. I do think there is a pre-induropean substrate but all Indurropean languages have substrates like seal the word a lot of neolithic farmers and they learned you know language for local flora and fauna and lifestyle from those people >> German >> well maybe not maybe hunter gatherers in Scandinavia because because in in because the hunter gatherers destroyed the farmers in Scandinavia before the indo-uropeans came it's quite likely that the substrate in Germanic if it exists uh to whatever extent it exists because I know the theory of substrate in Germanic is contested to some extent, but words like seal that being non-induropean is probably something to do with the seal hunters of Scandinavia than indigenous hunter gatherers who relied on seals.

[01:11:33]>> I agree. I agree that I mean certainly Germanic has has a somewhat different substrate from Greek for instance. But that but that's obvious. I mean they're they're in a completely different part of Europe. But >> I don't think Germanic is uniquely non-induropean, which is what this Germanic substrate hypothesis seems to >> emphasize. And then that's tied into, you know, these these old German ideas about, you know, primitive matriarchal cultures and so on. And I don't think that's >> Yeah, exactly.

[01:12:04]Well, um, so yeah. So to to summarize what you just said, there is a substrate.

[01:12:09]Is there indo-uropean substrate within Germanic you're talking about as well?

[01:12:14]Like do you think like another Indo-Uropean language within Germanic that can be identified as a substrate that was mistakenly thought of and misidentified as non-indouropean cognates?

[01:12:26]>> No, I I don't think so. I do think the Germanic people probably did assimilate the people of the batlax culture linguistically and then they got a lot of long words from them. Uh but those words are so I think the languages were so similar that those words can go mostly unnoticed as long words because they could be assimilated into the Germanic root system um or the induropean root system because they were the language still so similar but there is another substrate in Germanic and that's in West Germanic specifically >> west block >> it may be West Germanic has a lot of words beginning with P for some reason West Germanic loves words beginning with P. uh plean and pau and whatever else.

[01:13:08]Uh and the these words are curious because if you look for instance at the poetic and you look at words beginning with p in the poetic era I don't I think I think there's like a single example of a word I I mean I I I've looked this up there's u I can do it very quickly now. Yeah, there's only there are only two words beginning with P in the poetic era and one of them is the Latin loan word pina which means to torment and it's in the pros. So it's not even in the real poem.

[01:13:36]Uh and the other word is penning uh which means penny but that's probably a Latin long word. So there are two words for P in the whole poet together. I think that's quite notable when you consider how many words with P there are in West Germanic. Uh the thing about West Germanic words for P is that a lot of them are like basic adjectives or verbs or nouns. Um, for instance, pleon means uh, well, it's the root for English play, but I believe in in old Norse it has uh, I'm sorry. I believe in uh, protoester manic it has uh, actually let me let me look it up really really quick.

[01:14:11]Oh, this is annoying. I wishary had a better search function.

[01:14:18]>> F, I guess.

[01:14:20]>> Yeah. So in in West Germanic it means like u to stand wictionary define it as to stand up to be responsible for uh >> but but it's interesting because it begins with a P and you know we don't see that at all in uh in old Norse and Gothic we hardly at all see these P words >> and this is a strong verb too. So it's it's really really unusual for it to for for to to be a strong verb with a P. It also doesn't have any secure non-gerermanmanic cognates. So like what's going on here? Were the West Germanics just really into making up words that started with peace or uh could we be dealing with Induropean substrates?

[01:15:01]>> Interesting.

[01:15:03]Yes. So much unknown about Germanic still. Well, I just I was I think we need to bring this conversation to an end. But beforehand, I'll just one last question from my patron Scott who asks, "What is your favorite saga? and why?

[01:15:21]>> Uh, I mean, I know a lot of people love Icelandic sagas, um, or they love the WSA saga. Uh, but my favorites are probably the Norwegian, I would just say HKinga. And that's not that's not a saga. It's a saga cycle about the Norwegian kings from really from the Englinger, which are actually the Swedish kings in the Ina saga all the way um to some fairly late Christian Norwegian kings. But it's I I think it's just such an epic work in terms of historical breadth. It's it's really huge. U it's a proper cycle and it's not that long. I have I have a physical copy of it actually.

[01:15:58]>> I have two physical I got in two volumes from the Viking Society that came out in 2011, >> but I've only read the first volume. So the second half of it I don't know. I was mostly interested in the that parts about St. Olaf, you know, uh Olaf the Good, whatever. But uh you recommend I should read the other half as well? I suppose >> I I mean it if if you're interested in history, you certainly should. There are a lot of interesting things in it. But I'm a lover of poetry u old poetry as well as as other poetry of course but there's so much poetry in the himcr uh this work preserves several hundred stanzas uh which is like I mean it preserves thousands of lines of Norse poetry and much of this is found nowhere else but a lot of it is historical so you you don't just get uh get you know reports what these people said you know in in in a sort of third person or let's a narrative sense, you also get, you know, their own words because these poems are likely quite well preserved and, you know, I don't know, I just find that very fascinating.

[01:17:02]>> Well, Conrad, you have revealed many Germanic gems to us today. So, thank you very much for coming on Jive Talk. Would you let go where they can see more of your stuff and learn more of your wisdom?

[01:17:17]>> Well, I think I'm much better in text than in voice to be honest. Um, so if you want, you can go to my Substack, uh, which hopefully Tom will link somewhere in the video description. Otherwise, it's Germanic gems.substack.com.

[01:17:29]Uh, they can also follow me on Twitter where I'm, uh, formerly known as Twitter, the app formerly known as Twitter, uh, where I'm Germanic Gems.

[01:17:37]Um, and yeah, I I I think I'm better in text and in voice. So, I really hope you won't uh let this performance scare you away too much from reading what I've written. He's a word cell or a rune cell I guess they would say in the old days. But uh yes, all gems, no coal biters, go and check out his uh his blog. And uh thank you very much for listening and watching Jive Talk.

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