Fantasy’s biggest beef never happened

[00:00:00]No criticism of The Lord of the Rings is more internet famous [music] than when George R. R. Martin said >> At the end of the books, Sauron has been defeated, Aragorn is king, and Tolkien just says that he he ruled wisely and well for [music] 500 years or whatever.

[00:00:13]And it's easy to type, but then you start asking yourself, what does that constitute, ruling wisely and well? I mean, what was his tax policy?

[00:00:21]>> Because of this criticism, the creator of Game of Thrones is often viewed as a dismissive Tolkien hater. But Martin does something that dismissive haters normally don't.

[00:00:29]>> One of the real [music] judgments of a power of a book is how often you reread it, because there are things that are only apparent [music] on the second read or the third read. And I I reread Lord of the Rings every few years.

[00:00:40]>> So, which one is it? Is The Lord of the Rings too simple to take seriously or too deep to ever put down? What's certain is that Martin does hate oversimplified fantasy. It's something he's been openly critical about for decades.

[00:00:52]>> Yeah, and and all this stuff about the dark lord is rising in the north and handsome guys in white cloaks fighting really ugly guys who dress all in black.

[00:01:00]>> The catch [music] is that when Martin makes this kind of general criticism of fantasy, he isn't actually talking [music] about Tolkien.

[00:01:06]>> We are all are working in the the shadow of the great mountain that is The Lord of the Rings. But that being said, [music] in the hands of some of the Tolkien imitators, those things have become clichés that I think have [music] have made people think that it's, you know, entertainment for children or for particularly slow adults.

[00:01:23]>> Martin's hatred isn't aimed at The Lord of the Rings, but rather at the generation of writers who lazily imitated The Lord of the Rings. But while this clears Tolkien of Martin's contempt, it doesn't address his specific criticisms. Everybody knows the barb about Aragorn's tax policy, but it's easy to miss a purpose behind [music] that criticism. Because when Martin thinks a fantasy world truly lacks depth, he doesn't continue interrogating it. Instead, he just dismisses it. Go. Compare Martin's criticism of Tolkien with his criticism of the kind of sword and sorcery books he read before The Lord of the Rings, like Conan the Barbarian.

[00:01:55]>> Before Tolkien, every fantasy book that couldn't have eaten anything but stew.

[00:02:00]Take a look at the Hyborian Age. It doesn't really hold up to five minutes thought. It was not really uh economically soundly based.

[00:02:08]>> This is what Martin sounds like when he can't take a fictional world seriously.

[00:02:11]It's actually similar to Tolkien himself, who never enjoyed {quote} stories of an imaginary world that have not got any imaginary history. [music] As a kid, The Lord of the Rings was the first fantasy book that held up to Martin's scrutiny.

[00:02:24]>> Conan there was no history. I mean then then I'm reading Tolkien and it's 200 pages of appendices. It made the Tolkien's world real in a way that Aquilonia and Cimmeria never were.

[00:02:36]>> The reason Martin fixates on the tax policy of Aragorn and not the Pevensie children ruling Narnia is because Middle-earth has enough depth to feel capable of a real answer. An answer more substantive than that Aragorn simply [music] ruled wisely and well. But even though this takes some of the bite out of his criticism, it doesn't remove the fact that Martin is clearly dissatisfied by some aspects of the work that inspired him. [music] But do you know who else was dissatisfied by his inspirations? Tolkien is often viewed as the beginning of the fantasy genre, but he was also deeply influenced by authors of mythology and fairy tales like George MacDonald, who despite writing some of Tolkien's favorite stories growing up, Tolkien reportedly called an old grandmother who preached instead of writing. Through criticism, Martin is doing to Tolkien exactly what Tolkien did to his own influences. Just as Tolkien was inspired to write The March of the Ents because he was disappointed in Shakespeare's {quote} shabby use of the marching forest in Macbeth. For the past 30 years, Martin has been trying to answer precisely the kind of logistical questions he felt were missing from The Lord of the Rings. A Song of Ice and Fire begins after the destruction of not Sauron, but rather the mad king Aerys Targaryen. Through Robert Baratheon, Martin explores how the qualities that make a good warrior might not translate into a good king [music] who bears good children with good tax policies.

[00:03:51]>> I double their taxes.

[00:03:53]>> What I've tried to do and in [music] showing rulers as diverse as as Robert and Ned Stark and Cersei Lannister and Daenerys Targaryen is show people who achieve a position of power and [music] then what do they do with it?

[00:04:06]>> Martin's criticisms are often expressions of his own sensibilities rather than potshots at The Lord of the [music] Rings.

[00:04:12]>> There's no better example of this than in Aragorn's tax policy. In 2019, Martin agreed that Tolkien was right not to depict it, saying, quote, "Tolkien was very interested in myth. So, in the context of a mythological setup, I don't think it really would have been appropriate for him to write a book about Aragorn's reign and his challenges. But, I had things I wanted to say that were [music] not the same things that Tolkien says. Over the centuries, writers are talking to each other. They're replying to each other.

[00:04:37]They're in a dialogue. As much as the internet wants to present Martin as having a beef with Tolkien, this idea of a conversation fits much better."

[00:04:44]>> Now, yes, I know Gandalf came back.

[00:04:47]Actually, I would have kept him dead, but uh That's an issue for me and and J.R.R. to discuss down the line.

[00:04:55]>> And who knows? Maybe after George sails to Valinor, he'll get to hear from Tolkien what I'm sure is a very detailed explanation of Aragorn's economics.

[00:05:03][music] >> When I die, they can keep their heaven.

[00:05:05]I'd rather go to Middle-earth.

[00:05:06]>> If you're interested in the relationship between The Lord of the [music] Rings and Game of Thrones, click here. If you enjoyed this video, consider supporting my channel on Patreon or just sharing this with someone [music] you know. Both are equally appreciated.