Mr Sensible LIVE! With TJump!

Añadido: 2026-06-02

[00:00:35]Massive thanks to all of my supporting members [music] and patrons. Thank you all so very much.

[00:00:54]>> [music] >> I saw my >> [music] >> Hello, good evening and welcome to you all. Hope you're enjoying the weather cuz I'm not. I don't do hot. I've spent basically all day in here with the air con on and it's been nice and quiet and about 10 minutes ago it started that squeaking. So, it's had to go off and I've just opened up all the windows and fingers crossed I don't get toasted. So, I hope you're all doing well. Anyway, um tonight the guest is T Jump. I hope you've come across him. Uh I've certainly come across him quite a bit on Modern Day debates. Um he was here and he's disappeared again.

[00:01:52]So he's just dropped out. So I'm not quite sure what's happening. So we'll hang fire on Tom and get him back in and on the stream when he's back. And uh as I said, we're just going to, as I said in the description, we're just going to have a bit of chat. Uh he's done debates about flat earth. He's done debates about uh various religious things, creationism and so on. And we might even finally come to a decision as to the right way to squeeze toothpaste. Is it in the middle or always at the end? And if so, which end? And it looks like the man has just reappeared. So, we'll get him on in the next couple minutes. Um, if you haven't and haven't heard of it, I just started that second channel I talked about way back in about March.

[00:02:34]Um, it's called God of Small Worlds. So, please check it out. Uh, perhaps perhaps uh one of the mods can pop a link for it in the uh um side chat thingy. Uh God of Small Worlds where I've ecospheres, little sealed worlds. Um the first video is out. Um but in fact, we're nearly ready for an update because it's been this the project's been running for at least three months and I've got more to come. Uh, right. I see that that we got quite a few people in here, including people who who saw Tump on uh Fight the Flight Earth channel, which is one I haven't yet seen yet. So, um, we'll have to have a chat about that, I'm sure. Uh, I think without further ado, well, actually a little bit of an ado, Mr. Yellow Earth Observer still, still has not come back to me about having a debate. Yellow Earth Observer, if you are watching, there is £2,600 pledged to the registered charity of your choice if you turn up for a debate with me. You don't have to win it. So, there's no arguing over whether you've won or not. Just turn up, have a debate, and £2,600 has been pledged. That's got to be good.

[00:03:50]Cuz you're not a yellow, are you?

[00:03:53]You aren't, are you? Or is he? Maybe he is. I don't know. Let's get let's get the man in then. Uh so if you're listening, T Jump, uh I'll give you about 20 seconds and then I'm going to pull you into the uh live waiting room and we'll get you on here. I'm looking forward to this um because I've not sort of spoken to uh Tump before. Um and it's nice to have a new and different guest.

[00:04:17]Let's get him in now.

[00:04:20]>> Hello. Good evening, T Jump.

[00:04:24]>> Hey, how's it going?

[00:04:25]>> Not so bad, thanks. Not so bad. And how are you?

[00:04:29]>> I'm really really tired actually. I was up been up since like 3:00 a.m. or something. Just on a really weird sleep schedule. So, >> And what time have you got there? It's uh 9 just gone 9:00 p.m. here.

[00:04:39]>> It's 3 p.m. So, I've been up >> 12 hours.

[00:04:43]>> What were you doing getting up at 3:00 a.m. then?

[00:04:47]>> Uh I have a delayed circadian rhythm, so my sleep schedule just changes automatically every once in a while. So I just have to force myself to wake up earlier or later to try and make it normal.

[00:04:58]>> I see. I see. Yeah. Well, um not the same reason, but the weather we've been having here, it's uh sort of hovering around uh 31 32 in the daytime, which here is bloody hot and it's not really dropping below 20 at night, which feels very uncomfortable. So, I've been waking at stupid o'clock. Anyway, um yeah, I I I said uh I just announced that that you've done quite a lot of debates. Is that is that the main stay of your your uh channel really? Debates >> sort of mostly I do conversations like I don't debates I pretty much only do on other people's channels like James modern day debates.

[00:05:34]>> Yeah.

[00:05:35]>> But I just usually invite on professors and philosophers and other theologians to have conversations about does this argument work or not. We don't usually do any formal debates mostly just conversations. But I mean I have seen quite a few of the more formal debates um on modern day debates as you said with James. I haven't been on there yet.

[00:05:53]It was going to be I had a debate planned with Austin Wit Wit it gets it.

[00:05:59]I you've come across him I'm sure.

[00:06:02]>> Yep. Yes. Unfortunately.

[00:06:04]>> Yeah. And uh he agreed to it and he said go on you sort out the dates. And I suggested a couple dates. He said yeah that's good. Sort it out with James. So I sorted it out with James. came back to him and that's the last I ever heard of him. I think I sent him about 10 emails and then finally gave up. So I guess he's run away.

[00:06:21]>> That's interesting cuz he I think he's been on like three or four times.

[00:06:24]>> Oh yeah.

[00:06:25]>> On modern day debates.

[00:06:26]>> Yep. Yeah, he has.

[00:06:27]>> Maybe he's just afraid of you. Just you specifically. He's just too afraid to debate.

[00:06:30]>> It could be, couldn't it? It could be my dashing looks, you know, puts him to shame and Yeah. Can't can't stand the idea of it. Who knows? Anyway, Austin Witzy, you didn't get it, did you? You didn't get the debate.

[00:06:42]>> [laughter] >> which you don't get it.

[00:06:44]>> No, you don't. No, not not at all. So, um you you've mentioned several sort of topics like okay, we've had flatter, there's um sort of uh relig religious asp religious type debates and and discussions and so on. What's your favorite?

[00:06:59]What >> uh I don't I'm not sure exactly like I don't really have a favorite. Like mostly conversations for me are a job source of income for the most part. I uh I've had social anxiety my entire life, so I've always hated talking to people and so I decided to get a job in it just to be ironic. Um it's actually I decided to get a job in it so I could practice and try to get over it. But I've [clears throat] never actually enjoy talking to people. It's not something that I find pleasurable. So they're mostly very exhausting conversations are in general for me. And so I don't really have a favorite. I guess the ones I find the favorite are the ones that are easiest. So, the ones that I have the most memorized information on that takes the least research, those are probably the ones that I find the most enjoyable.

[00:07:42]>> Well, if anyone hasn't seen T Jump, you'll see he's always in a very, very comfy chair and you certainly look relaxed when you're having these uh discussions and debates.

[00:07:52]>> Well, thank you. Yeah, it's taken on quite a bit of practice to become socially normalish.

[00:07:56]>> Well, it's quite interesting you say that. I I'm not a social person at all.

[00:08:01]um if we're going out to a family, you know, a friends or family do I'm never particularly interested. I don't do small talk. I get bored quickly and want to come home. So, when I started u this channel and especially when I then started um live streaming, uh Mrs. S was absolutely gobsmacked. She could not believe I'd be doing this. And I'm actually I do enjoy it, you know, but real life I'm not like this. I'm okay.

[00:08:27]You know, I'm not petrified to speak to anyone, but I I don't get pleasure out of just chatting, you know.

[00:08:35]>> That's fair. Yeah, I'm I am totally petrified, especially in like bars. It's very hard for me to ever go up and talk to anybody in public situations. I do not in any way enjoy it whatsoever.

[00:08:46]Well, you see, I I can I can do it. I can walk I can walk up to a stranger and say something, but it's the standing there and making small talk for I'm not interested. I don't care what the weather is. I don't care that that that you that the the person who owned your cat before you did has just had an operation. So what, you know, and it just doesn't hold any interest for me.

[00:09:09]Yeah. I hope they get better, but let's let's move on, you know.

[00:09:15]What topics do you like talking about?

[00:09:16]Are you into like big philosophy topics?

[00:09:18]You like talking about flat earth? Um I hear you're a big flat-earther. Just a closet flat earther, right? Just >> a shill a shill for the globe. Glo money.

[00:09:26]>> Yeah, I do like doing flat earth because it's so demonstrably stupid, so demonstrabably wrong. And some of the weird and wonderful ideas they come up with are just laughable. Um, Sleeping Warrior came up with the idea of sunrises being bluish and sunsets being reddish due to Doppler shift, [laughter] which was rather a special one. And, uh, >> yeah. Um, with, um, Hip Hop Hippie last Oh, yes. Monday, um, he came up with the idea. I asked him, "So, if we have a vacuum chamber and we suck out all the air and we put in like water or air or something, why is it that on the bottom of the container the pressure is higher than the top of the container?" And he said, "Well, it's it's because it's in a container."

[00:10:11]That's his reason. The reason it's there's more pressure on the bottom is because containers just are magic and they work that way for some reason.

[00:10:19]>> Okay. So, you got your container, you put something in it, and it's a higher pressure at the bottom. Why then, Mr. the hip-hop hippie. If you turn it upside down, does that high pressure area move from one, you know, what was the bottom to what was the top and is now the bottom?

[00:10:35]>> It's in the container. That's >> It's funny, doesn't it? How do containers know? I >> I mean, it's just incredible.

[00:10:43]>> I tell you what, the magic of containers, >> you must have seen that that old clip of film. Lots of flat earthers use it with uh I don't know what the scientific equipment is, but the glass thing with a a bulb at each end. One side's got um bromine gas in it, the other side's vacuum. They open a tap, boom, it all [clears throat] rushes to the other end.

[00:11:00]Totally failing to understand that you got pressure of broine gas of I don't know, let's say 14 psi. The other end, you've got a vacuum as close as to zero as you can get it. Of course, it's going to whoo from one side to the other. You haven't got that in the atmosphere.

[00:11:17]>> Oh, yeah, for sure. But they always say, "Oh, it's density. It's because because of density." Density does that. So there's less density.

[00:11:23]>> Yes. It's going to go that way.

[00:11:25]>> Actually, I'm glad you said that because um yes, they do this relative density equilibrium because I think I thought of a neat little demonstration to destroy that idea. Uh and I want to do a video on it, but I'd forgotten about it. So I've just jotted down a note. It's all secret for now, though. But uh >> Oh, yeah. That's why I brought up the uh if we have a vacuum chamber and put in a a gas or something if it was relative density. Well, relative density would put equal pressure everywhere in the container, there wouldn't be a disproportionate amount of ESI on the bottom if it was just relative density.

[00:12:04]So the question is is if there's relative density, there must be an additional something there to cause it to aggregate towards the bottom, right?

[00:12:11]>> Yeah. Some sort of I don't know, some sort of force or something you could think of as a force perhaps.

[00:12:17]Yeah. Yeah. Force uh hip hop hippie came up with was the container. The container is the magical force.

[00:12:23]>> So what if it was an absolutely perfectly spherical container? So there is no difference in any of the I don't know how you get the gas in there, but we get it in there somehow. There is no difference with any of the walls. So why does it prefer one area cuz it isn't even a flat bottom, but one area to another?

[00:12:43]Weird.

[00:12:43]>> I I have no idea. He he didn't make the argument that it was the shape of the container. No, no shapes of the container mattered here to to his his argument. He just said that if it's in a container, well, then that must cause all differences in pressure. It's just because it's in a container and then container magic does it.

[00:13:01]>> He understood >> the the shape of the container and what difference that would make.

[00:13:06]>> I don't know. Oh, um Nathan Oakley. Uh I presume you've come across Mr. Oakley.

[00:13:12]>> Natalie.

[00:13:12]>> Yeah. Yeah. He's always going on about that, isn't it? And your fundy religious belief and you can't have gas pressure without the presupposed container and oh god, I hate that guy. He's awful. Um, but yeah, he's always always going on about that. And he keeps using that uh broine gas thing as well.

[00:13:32]>> Yep.

[00:13:33]>> My debate with him was really funny. I totally triggered him by just bringing up one thing, radio waves.

[00:13:38]>> When did you debate Oakley? I'd like to see that one. Was it >> Oh, yeah. On Modern Day debate. a few months ago. I think >> I do you know I hadn't heard of that cuz the last I'd heard the last time I'm aware of Oakley coming out of his echo chamber was when he uh got totally owned by >> Oh no yeah my my bad. It was Nathan Thompson is the guy.

[00:13:57]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Nathan Thompson. Yeah.

[00:14:00]I did see that one actually. I was working at home because of the COVID thing and I I pretty much plowed my way through all the the uh modernday debates that were of interest to me and as I said yours were definitely among them and uh I watched a lot of them so >> thank you appreciate it.

[00:14:16]>> Yeah. No um if if anyone hasn't seen uh T Jump you can check him out on modern day debates or even better check him out on his channel and consider giving him a few likes and maybe a subscribe. I'd recommend it because actually thinking about that as well, Tump, I haven't haven't subscribed because I, as I said, um I only ever seem to see you on um modern day debates. So, I shall fix that right now. And there we go. There we go.

[00:14:44]Subscribe to you.

[00:14:46]>> Oh, thank you. Thank you.

[00:14:47]>> No, my pleasure. My pleasure. because um I think from what what I've seen um on the Monday debates that you've been on, you've done um a cracking job. You really have. And everybody, there's a link to Tom's channel. So, uh do check it out. But stay here for now. Check it out later. [laughter] Oh, I'm being asked to boost your volume. Uh let's do that. I think probably you're just sat too comfortable in your chair. Well, let's give you a bit of a boost then. There we go.

[00:15:16]>> Sorry, people. Yeah, definitely tend to lean away from a mic when I'm sleeping.

[00:15:21]>> Yes. [laughter] I I did see uh on your channel you've got um a channel intro vid and that was made by one of your uh subscribers or or followers.

[00:15:32]>> Yes. All of the real work on my channel is done by my followers and not me. All I do is sit down and chat. So like I actually had an edited video I did on the ontological argument that was all edited by one of my fans from India who's done amazing work for >> wow >> very inexpensive which is great and yeah one of my followers made my intro video my previous intro video >> which which does star your chair doesn't it >> yes yes the chair is the star of the channel [laughter] >> that yeah for my channel uh I yeah because I know you can see you can see me can't you in the the Discord And you got a little spinning Mr. Sensible in the bottom right corner. Every now and then that changes to a cat. My cat Arnold, he's sort of a star of my channel. Uh, >> and you you got a chair.

[00:16:18]>> Well, a chair is comfy. Cat cat's nice, warm, and cuddly, so I can understand that.

[00:16:24]>> Oh, and Tony go great on t-shirts.

[00:16:26]>> Sorry.

[00:16:27]>> Both of them go great on t-shirts. Like I had a bunch of my fans make uh tops and t-shirts and mugs and stuff >> with the chair >> merch. [laughter] Yep. It's like my my motto is um uh something intellectual honesty is in a state of recline.

[00:16:43]>> Yes. State of recline. So I got that.

[00:16:45]>> Yeah. Yep. I picked up on that one. I I did have a quick uh chat for a couple minutes with Tom before we came on. And Tom's got a very dry sense of humor. And I'm sure if if I'm not careful, it will go straight over me head. Take me air off. It will. Um [laughter] I've also I've got a couple of super chats. I'll just quickly read. Just bear with me one second. And if anyone has any questions for Tom, uh, please do fire away. But we got Mitch Goldstein.

[00:17:10]Super $5. Say, "Creationism, Bigfoot, and Loch Ness Monster. Three of a pair."

[00:17:15]Have you done anything about Bigfoot or Loch Ness Monster or are they too silly?

[00:17:19]>> Um, I think so. I think in the past I did Bigfoot. Like I I did a debate tournament on the atheist roundt or I think it's called the Atheist Network group now. And one of the debate topics was is Bigfoot real? I think it was my opponent who beat me. He cheated though.

[00:17:35]Uh, he beat me, but he went on to debate that topic. So, it was one of the topics I was supposed to debate.

[00:17:39]>> Uh, yeah. I've never done anything about Bigfoot at all. Um, Erin Meow has just super chatted also. Five dollar five Australian dollars upside down dollars.

[00:17:49]0410 a.m. here. Surely 0410 is A.M.

[00:17:54]I [laughter] 4:10 a.m. here. Good morning. Well, good morning to you too, Eric. and I uh well that's that's you're up nice and early as well. People are up really early.

[00:18:04]They don't want to miss either myself or apparently you Tom.

[00:18:09]>> Thank you. I appreciate your suffering for our sakes. [laughter] >> Um and also when we were chatting I mentioned about the fact you've done a debate um partnered up with uh Matt Dahonte. Now there's a name. Um what was he like?

[00:18:24]>> He's a really nice guy. I've actually met him. So me and Modern Day debates flew to Austin, three or four different debates, and one of the ones I did there was with uh >> Jonathan Sheffield on the historicity of Jesus, Jesus's resurrection or something like that. And we did it inside of the AAA studios, the atheist whatever studios. So we met Matt there.

[00:18:45]>> Yeah.

[00:18:46]>> And the other guys, we met Eric and Jyn, people who were on the studio. I don't think gin. It was during COVID, so there was it was like a limited number, >> but they had donuts, so that was >> Oh, that's that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't matter if you agree or disagree. If they got donuts, that's good. That sounds good to me.

[00:19:04]>> Exactly.

[00:19:05]>> I I think we might have just had a question come in for you. Let's just have a quick look.

[00:19:11]Uh oh, yes. Yes, it is. Sorry, I I it's a bit of a pava for me to get hold of my super chats. uh now pinion has donated uh 55 Swedish croner saying TJ it seems as though you sometimes take a position in a debate that is not your actual position. Can you take talk a bit more about that? I might be wrong. Is that the case?

[00:19:33]>> Yeah, definitely. So I did one debate where I defended Christianity as a Christian versus an atheist who was a Christian. So he he was defending atheism but he was a Christian. So we've swapped roles for the purpose >> and to explore different positions. It's actually something that's really common in debating in colleges. You have to actually do that as a part of your debate curriculum because it teaches you critical thinking skills skills because the >> the only way to like the quote from the art of war if you know yourself and you know your enemy you'll never lose in a thousand. Knowing the position of your opponent better than your is best way to be sure that you can win a debate.

[00:20:13]Because if you can their arguments better than they can, that means that be able to show the debunking of the better argument that they didn't make, which will then essentially undercut everything they've said. And so it's always a good debate strategy to be able to defend positions hold. Well, there was >> you.

[00:20:34]>> Yeah, there was one um that was done with regard to flat earth. I can't remember the guy's name or or or against gravity and he put forward this theory of pushetrons which are pushing us down.

[00:20:47]And actually the other guy was struggling to counter it because they're both they're both realists, not flatearthers, but one had to take the flat earth position. And the other guy was actually struggling to counter it because a lot of what he said, you know, the physics side of things um actually, you know, uh what's the word? It formed a coherent coherent argument. It was really quite strange. It just fell down on one one thing. I can't remember what it was though and I can't remember who did it and I can't remember when it was.

[00:21:16]That's one of the that's one of the really interesting things about philosophy is that this there's this problem of underdetermination. So all data can be explained by infinitely many hypotheses no matter what how crazy you want to make it. So even everything we know about the globe earth evidence can actually be explained on a flat earth model. Um we can use post hawk reasoning to make it fit the flat earth model.

[00:21:39]Just use one really simple example. We could all have been created 5 minutes ago by evil leprechauns and the world was actually flat and they just gave us faulty memories of information of the world being round. So you can actually explain all of the data on a flat earth model. Uh it's just and if you put a lot of effort into it, you can make it kind of reasonable and then you can do that with any position.

[00:21:59]>> But I think >> that's why in science to count as real evidence, you need novel predictions.

[00:22:03]You need to be able to say here's my hypothesis. If my hypothesis is true, here's something we can discover which we haven't seen yet. And if it can do that, that's real evidence. Well, but anybody can post talk explain all of the data.

[00:22:15]>> Well, there's two things spring to mind.

[00:22:17]Flate earthers do come up with some weird and wonderful ideas like Riley's Doppler shifts sun. Um, and things like bendy light and whatever to uh explain sunsets. The problem is each of those things which may be dafted in on their own may have a certain amount of explanatory power when you combine it with the others they don't work because they contradict they just don't fit together. And when you were saying about hypothesis you've obviously not come across flatsoid fee have you? He doesn't even know what a hypothesis is.

[00:22:49]Apparently a hypothesis is the prediction and he's he's in the middle of arguments with Fighter Flight Earth about that.

[00:22:57]Yeah, it's it uh it would help if if flat-earthers were intelligent. Uh then they they'd be able to make better better arguments for sure. Um because yeah, uh hip-hop hippie I asked him what possible means and he said unicorns are impossible. I was like well impossible means logical contradiction. So like round squares are impossible. 1 plus 1 equalsible.

[00:23:19]But anything that doesn't have a logical contradiction is technically possible.

[00:23:23]Like Harry Potter is possible. It's possible that the universe could have been like Harry Potter with magic and unicorns and stuff. That stuff is possible. Um, so flat earthers don't know a lot of basic words in terminology. I asked him what a what a force was and he said um things happening to other things. That's what [laughter] he's definitely >> to other things.

[00:23:44][cough] >> Yeah. Hip hop hippie. He's um also now known as Bumpy Earth or Bumpy Earth 420, isn't he? Um he had a debate with me and he basically said the earth is bumpy cuz it's got mountains and that's about as technical as he got. How did he do with you?

[00:24:03]>> Oh yeah, I got the bumpy earth all the time. He he definitely he brought that up on a number of occasions. Um >> yeah, >> he said a lot of things.

[00:24:12]>> It's it's like coming forward to a flat versus globe argument and saying look when it rains you get wet.

[00:24:20]Yeah. And so what? [laughter] >> Yeah. Um >> there's a clip there's a clip from my debate going around on Twitter right now where I asked him so uh if the smallest thing the human eye could see is like this thing and if the curve of the earth was smaller than this thing would we be able to see it? And his answer was I don't know.

[00:24:45]>> Like that's it.

[00:24:46]>> So I went through it again. I paused like so so go walk this walk through this with me one more time. So, the smallest thing the human eye can see is X. And if something else was smaller than that, could the human eye see it?

[00:24:57]And he's like, I don't know.

[00:25:02]>> So, it was a challenging debate, was it?

[00:25:04][laughter] Did he have you on the run for a bit or did you manage to hold your own against this onslaught of logic?

[00:25:12]>> Oh. Oh, his his his argument that uh Well, you haven't done it. Nuh-uh. I mean, I was I was struggling with that one. The nuhuh. Z, there's such a hard argument. Well, you haven't done it as an experiment.

[00:25:22]>> Is that what you're talking about? When you know you haven't measured, you haven't. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:27]>> You haven't been to space. You didn't you didn't build a you didn't build a radio thing in your backyard. Yeah, I did. Oops.

[00:25:32]>> Yeah. Yeah. I had um a guy who has subsequently been on fight the flight airs for a debate and he was a nice guy.

[00:25:40]Uh I can't remember his name. It was recently. Um but anyway we we were talking about the various things and we're talking about air pressure being a gradient and um I showed a clip of film uh where this guy sent up a balloon to measure the curve of the earth uh sorry to photograph the curve of the earth which also had uh air pressure sensor which showed a nice steady gradient downwards and so on. We're talking about that and he basically said well yeah but you didn't do that did you and I said yeah that was me. So, [laughter] uh, he did laugh at that. So, you know, I set him up and he laughed. So, that's that was cool. And he was a nice guy. I just can't think of his name. Um, but he was on fight, I think, in about the last week or so.

[00:26:23]>> So, what what channels do you watch then? Um, you know, what what's your pleasure?

[00:26:28]>> Um, cat videos. I watch cat videos.

[00:26:31]>> Cats. Cat as in conspiracy cats or as in cute little fluffy kittens?

[00:26:36]>> Cute little fluffy kittens. Like the rainbow pop-tart cat videos. Um, I I like the Kardashians. That's that's a good show. Bachelor. Um, Nathan Thompson's channel is just gorgeous. He has an 8 hour video of him bouncing ping pong balls off of hammers.

[00:26:51]I just I watched the entire thing without pausing.

[00:26:54]>> Where does that come from? He thinks that's some amazing skill. But if it is some amazing skill that's taken years of training, what a waste of bloody time.

[00:27:05][laughter] Yeah. Don't get it. May maybe there's some like world record he was going like the Guinness world record longest ping pong ball bouncing on.

[00:27:14]>> I don't know. He's got some sort of business, hasn't he? Where he does mind training for people.

[00:27:20]>> I don't know how many people are paid for that.

[00:27:23]>> Well, he's actually he's got a lot of really good interesting uh skills like he can write backwards very >> clearly.

[00:27:31]>> Yeah. and he's memorized lots of different uh words and language aspects of languages. So, he's definitely capable of >> and then he wast often he does it.

[00:27:43]>> Yeah.

[00:27:44]>> Yeah. Super chat from Judy Basset for €10 for Arnold. Thanks, Judy. And I'm sure Arie will appreciate although he's not here right now. Arnold is the cat, Tom.

[00:27:54]But he pops up sometimes. I drag him on to camera. But there we go. Yeah, because Nathan's channel's dead, isn't it? And he used to run the largest flat earth Facebook group, didn't he? For 130,000 people or something until it got taken down.

[00:28:10]>> Yeah.

[00:28:10]>> Yes.

[00:28:11]>> Uh him him and Mark Sergeant got into a big feud about who is the king flat earther for a while. It's pretty funny.

[00:28:17]>> Yeah.

[00:28:19]Yeah. Mark Sergeant, he doesn't seem to do much. Eric Debbay just doesn't engage with anyone else. He just produces crap.

[00:28:27]Um, and I'm actually in the Well, it's not in the middle. I I'm near the beginning of a video about debate. Sorry guys, it's going to be another debate one. Um, I thought of a great intro and then I had to do it. Yeah. Uh, I mean, it'd be good if someone like Debbay actually came onto a debate with someone to try and defend this rubbish that he pumps out. He just makes all these stupid claims. I'm not sure how much of it is him not understanding and how much is him lying. I'm pretty sure there's a mixture of the two.

[00:28:59]>> Yeah, that seems to be a common thing.

[00:29:01]Many of the uh gurus say a lot of really ridiculous things but never um go to any kind of critical debate >> area where people can challenge them.

[00:29:11]Like there's that one guy who's who's like the coffee bean son guy with the curly hair. Forgot his name though.

[00:29:18]>> Don't know him. Don't know him. But yeah, they just use lots of big pleasant sounding big words to sound smart and they talk really slow and then they get lots of people's money.

[00:29:30]>> Yeah, because I mean some someone like debate or whatever puts out that stuff and you're going to get some people just fall for it or get b, you know, just baffled by science and big words, but as they not going into debate, they're not actually being challenged having to explain themselves. So they never get shown in person to be wrong. I mean, if you're a follower of Debate, you're not going to really watch a video of mine other than to come in, give it a thumbs down, and put some stupid comment.

[00:29:57]You're not going to watch the video and try and understand, well, what was Mr. S saying? Is he right or is he No, they're not. They Eric's the man. Um, give them a give sensible a thumbs down, leave, you know, leave a a crap comment and go away again. Job done.

[00:30:13]>> Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's there's so much money in that. just the sounding smart and giving people inspirational quotes makes so much money that I can understand why they don't uh listen to criticism because there's not really much point if you're making that much money.

[00:30:27]>> And actually that's quite I was thinking about that with regard to Matt Powell who I'm sure you must have heard of.

[00:30:33]>> Yeah.

[00:30:34]>> Yeah. Because he's doing exactly the same.

[00:30:36]>> Small channel doesn't he?

[00:30:37]>> Sorry.

[00:30:38]>> He's got like a small channel. smallish, but it's growing cuz um I think that Kent Hovind is his papa papa creationist. Um but yeah, he he pumps out some crap and just, you know, again, he's not engaging with people. Um what was it he said in a video? He left a comment to a video. Uh I I can't remember what the video was about and he just said, "Yeah, and that's just like evolution. No evidence at all." Oh, no. Global warming. That was it. Global warming. No evidence at all. So I commented back, well apart from the fact the temperatures rising, the CO2 is rising, sea levels are rising, ice caps are melting, we got flash floods. I look at those floods in China. Three a year's worth of rain in three days. You got uh wildfires in is it Oregon? Is that in Oregon now?

[00:31:29]>> We got stupid.

[00:31:31]the main >> I mean the west coast of America's had some and up to Canada had stupid amount of heat but apparently there is zero evidence zero for global warming.

[00:31:42]>> Thanks Matt.

[00:31:43]>> Yeah. All the scientists are just they're just blind. They just they're misreading the data. They just they just don't know what they're talking about.

[00:31:49]>> And maybe they are. So why isn't another scientist an actual scientist calling them out and showing showing them that they're wrong? Oh no. We got some two bit preacher. He'll tell them they're wrong.

[00:32:00]Yep. Yep.

[00:32:02]>> Well, when you say two bit, I'm sure he's earning himself a nice little uh roll of cash.

[00:32:06]>> I think that's that's two bits too many.

[00:32:08][laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:11]Oh dear. Um so I'm just having a check on this. Um yeah, because Kent Hovind, he does engage sometimes, but his arguments have not changed right from the earliest ones that I saw on why do people laugh at creationists. There are seven types of evolution. STE stellar evolution, chemical evolution. What what are you talking about, Kent? I mean, what is it?

[00:32:36]Have you Have you debated Kent?

[00:32:39]>> Uh, three or four times. Yes.

[00:32:41]>> Wow. And how did you get on? Did he hit you with his Mr. um Spongebob?

[00:32:46]>> Uh, no. So, our first two conversations were actually really pleasant.

[00:32:50]>> Yeah.

[00:32:50]>> I think actually our first kind and pleasant and then the last one we did a modern day debate, I was a little more mean to. Yes, because the first ones was back when I like had less than a thousand subs on my channel and he has 150 channel. So, I was like really wanted more exposure.

[00:33:06]>> Yeah, of course. How did did you just email him and then he bit or or what?

[00:33:11]How did that come about?

[00:33:13]>> Yeah, like anybody can just email him and get get him on his channel. He's really really easy to get on.

[00:33:19]>> Maybe I'll have to give it a go.

[00:33:20]>> Public email onite that you can just email say, "Hey, would you like to come on my channel?" and he usually replies, "Yeah."

[00:33:27]>> Okay. What do people in here think? Do you think I should give that a crack?

[00:33:31]Get Mr. Hovind on here. Sorry, Dr. Hoind from Patriot University, no less. Hello, my name is Kent. [laughter] I bet he he was cussing when when his his thesis got out. Have you ever read it?

[00:33:48]>> Uh, nope. I I know that Aaron Raw made a big deal out of it. I was just listening to him debunk it. channel. It's a bit of a giggle. It's a bit of a giggle. Um, yeah, I I will thoroughly recommend uh Thunderfoot's Why do people love a creationist? Uh, it's a few years old now. Quite a few of the people I don't you don't see around anymore. Kent, you do. Um, and he had a big spat with what's the guy's name? Um, the one who wore the the Batman or whatever his makeup. Gosh, I can't think of his name now.

[00:34:20]>> Venom Fang X.

[00:34:21]>> Venom Fang X. That was It was the Joker, wasn't it? Not >> Yeah. Venom Fang X. That That was quite a famous YouTube spat that went on for quite a while and ended up with um Venom Fang X being [ __ ] and having to do a an apology video for false DMCA claims against uh Phil. [laughter] >> Yep. Yep.

[00:34:41]>> Yeah.

[00:34:42]>> When you mentioned the Batman thing, I was like, wait, Mr. Batman has gotten into a fight with uh [laughter] Phil?

[00:34:47]Because because there's a there's a presuppositionalist who's pretty big in in my side of the community who uh he goes by Mr. Batman and he dresses up as Batman and tells kid on talks to kids in Halloween about how to presuppose the existence of God kids [clears throat] presuppositionalism and it's absolutely hilarious. Um he's a pretty well-known presupp because of how much of a dumpster fire he is. So there's there's multiple multiple creationists talk about priup or multiple creationists dress up as Batman apparently. I've not heard of that. Not heard of that. But but talking about um kids and religion, can I could and if you don't want to answer, I 100% um uh respect that. But but have you ever had a religious upbringing or a time when you were religious or have you Well, I'm assuming you're atheist. Maybe that's an assumption I shouldn't make.

[00:35:39]>> Uh no, I'm I'm I'm a polytheist. I believe in Thor and Zeus and Rotan. No.

[00:35:45]Uh but yeah. Yeah. So, I'm an atheist. I was brought up Christian. I went to a Catholic grade school, Catholic high school. Um, I was pretty thoroughly religious up until late high school.

[00:35:56]Just Yeah, >> because none of my prayers were ever answered. I had major depression my entire life and just after praying for years, nothing happened. So, I just lost my faith because of that. And uh didn't even get into philosophy until like several years later after more the college realm.

[00:36:14]>> Okay. Okay. So, yep, I did definitely was religious, was very religious.

[00:36:19]>> The I saw a brilliant tweet recently, I can't remember word for word, where this guy was saying that uh surely what God should have done is made all mankind, live in heaven right from the start, but give you the free will to leave if you wish.

[00:36:35]>> Yeah. Why didn't he He didn't He apparently didn't think of that.

[00:36:39]>> Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty much like what I what I normally say is that well God should have given every human being the option to either go to his fallen world with all the benefits or just go to their own world and say like nah I don't really want to do that just go to my own world instead. So so why why didn't God do this? Could couldn't he have done this? Like no he must force forced you to go here because Adam and Eve ate the apple. So it's Adam and Eve's fault.

[00:37:00]>> Yeah. Well I mean what couldn't he put a f a fence electrified fence or something around that tree so they couldn't have eaten it? I don't know. Just make the tree a little bit taller. Like it grow like little like like an >> Oh, why not plant it somewhere bloody else?

[00:37:14][laughter] >> Why don't just give them knowledge and not death?

[00:37:18]>> Yeah. And free clothes.

[00:37:21]>> Yeah. David Oliver just said, "Have you seen off the curb ministries, Mr. S? The curb ministries. Not heard of them, David. Thanks for the super chat. Not heard of Have you heard of Curb Ministries, Tom?"

[00:37:34]>> Uh, nope. But I'm definitely going to Google them.

[00:37:37]>> Is it a religious curb or >> I don't know. Kirb is as is written. It is written. As it is written by Mr. David Oliver.

[00:37:49]>> Yeah. YouTube channel.

[00:37:52]>> I I I must have a look at that as well.

[00:37:54]I'll jot that down on my list. Um yeah.

[00:37:57]So >> half a million subs. It is pretty big.

[00:38:00]>> Half a million.

[00:38:01]>> Right. I'm ending this stream and getting onto my next video. [laughter] Uh, but I must admit, Tom, that I'm surprised that you haven't got an awful lot more subs. I definitely think you deserve them.

[00:38:16]>> I What? You got about Is it about eight and a half? Eight, eight and three quarters, something like that.

[00:38:20]>> You definitely deserve more.

[00:38:22]>> 8.2, I think, is what I'm at.

[00:38:25]>> Yeah. So, again, don't forget to check Tom's channel. Check it out. See if it's what you like. Because if you like debates and so on, Tom's a man. You done you done downside more than me. I find it really difficult to find people to debate, Tom.

[00:38:41]>> Oh, really?

[00:38:41]>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, the flatearthers, they're disappearing left, right, and center. Have you noticed that? There's less of them around.

[00:38:51]>> Yeah. It's It's a NASA conspiracy. They just keep kidnapping them.

[00:38:55]>> Yeah.

[00:38:57]Well, maybe we we could uh maybe we should have an argument and and you argue the case for flat earth and persuade some of the good people here to become flat earthers. Then I'll do it could be an endless cycle, couldn't there? I'll do videos debunking them till they leave. Then you argue again, persuade some more.

[00:39:15]>> Yes. We can generate some flat-earthers just in order to create content.

[00:39:19]>> Yeah. [laughter] And we'll just Yeah.

[00:39:23]All of us, let's just get together, do that, and we'll just scam YouTube. scam YouTube out of all their good advertising revenue. [laughter] Oh dear. Oh well, thank you Skits Crasher who's just subbed to you. Uh Tom and Oh, and Martin Fathers as well. Oh, sorry. He subbed to you after your debate with Bumpy. So he he was a premier sensible sub. That's good stuff.

[00:39:46]Good stuff.

[00:39:47]>> Thank you both. And thank to Martin.

[00:39:48]Thank you to Martin a little bit more because you subbed earlier. Yeah.

[00:39:51][laughter] See, um, skits, if you'd have done it sooner, you'd have got even more thanks from Tom. Oh, dear. Still, you've got more thanks, I'm sure, than somebody who subs.

[00:40:00]>> Hey, super duper thanks to anybody who subs to my only fans. Like, >> yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:04]>> Yeah.

[00:40:05]>> Well, when you say it's your only fans, it's your chairs only fans.

[00:40:09]>> True. Very, very true.

[00:40:11]>> Many years ago, I don't know how I came across it, Tom. I found this website um the Karma Sutra for deck chairs. you know, the deck chairs, the folding seaside chairs, and [laughter] it was it was um deck chairs in different sexual positions. It was a brilliant website.

[00:40:27]No text, just the just the name of the position and a photo of two chairs.

[00:40:32][laughter] But unfortunately, it seems to have gone. That was that's what the internet was really about, not all this flat earth rubbish.

[00:40:39]>> Uh I believe that is called rule 34. Uh yeah, >> rule 34.

[00:40:45]>> Yeah. Um, if it exists, there is porn of it.

[00:40:48]>> Yes. [snorts] >> Not not that I know by experience or anything. I wouldn't I'd have no idea.

[00:40:58]>> You're digging a hole here, Tom.

[00:41:00]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:01]>> Ah, now >> it was fight the flat earth told me about this. It wasn't me.

[00:41:05]>> Well, Skitz has just said, and I saw someone else mention it before, that you had the patience of a saint with Bumpy.

[00:41:12]Do you find that that that you are patient with them and you just want to carry on showing how stupid they are or do you get frustrated with these people?

[00:41:20]>> The only ones who I get frustrated with are ones where I'm not allowed to talk.

[00:41:23]Like the people who talk over me, those are extremely frustrating. Or people who use terminology completely incorrectly and then even after I like show them that's not how the word is used in like the field, they just keep using it incorrectly. Those kinds of ones are frustrating. But people who actually kind of listen are not as bad. So like Bumpy actually kind of listened.

[00:41:44]>> He admitted certain things that like I didn't expect him to admit. So he was actually >> amicable in the conversation. Like he wasn't even in the top 30 of my most frustrating people to debate. Like the Jay Dyer debate would be the number one most ridiculously frustrating debate ever.

[00:42:01]>> Jay Dyer. Okay. I have to watch out for that one. Yeah. I I I find that I I'm >> I mean there are debaters and ch debunk channels of all sorts from from ones that just point and laugh at how stupid something is to people who uh pull out all the equations and and and or or or those that do experiments to show through to those who just have a a good old rant at them like uh fight the flat earth. Um I I'm definitely at the quieter end. I'll sit and talk and listen and try and um show they're wrong and even have a a tease at their expense. And I've gotten all right with people that others have found really difficult to debate.

[00:42:40]And I've had a couple on who've come on here like uh um oh gosh, this is my terror. I I forget flipping words. Who's that idiot? Our idiot who normally comes into the channel, guys. Um can't think of his name, but he's come on the stream once and talked. It's the only time on where he's ever been live on anywhere.

[00:42:59]And he felt comfortable enough to come on here and talk because he knew that yeah, we disagree with him, but we're not just going to get shout he's not going to get shouted over and just insulted, you know, you go to some channels and that'll happen. But there you go.

[00:43:12]>> But having said that, I love fight when he's off in a dumpster.

[00:43:15]>> Cough cough. [laughter] >> I'm sorry. I I did talk over you there.

[00:43:20]>> Well, yeah, I was saying the exact same thing. Yeah, like fight the clutter.

[00:43:22]It's >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And there's a place for that and and I love it. Uh did you see his um debate for one of a better word with uh Santos?

[00:43:34]>> Uh yes, I saw part of it. That was that was hilarious. Like I I likely liked his um preamles to the debate where he was reading Santos's emails. That part was just hilarious.

[00:43:44]>> Yes. Uh people are saying >> Santos got arrested which was hilarious too.

[00:43:48]>> Uh the person I'm forgetting about, they're saying uh Gary Wenger. Yeah.

[00:43:52]He's he's one but the other one is Multi TomTom who hasn't done anything for a while. Uh don't bother >> looking Gary Ybanger.

[00:44:01]>> Y Banger. Yes.

[00:44:03]>> Gotcha.

[00:44:04]>> Yeah. I mean he came on here and he was okay. Uh I don't think he really has much understanding of what he's talking about. But I found him I found him okay.

[00:44:13]his what he's well known for is coming into comments and just copy copy pasting reams and reams of stuff which obviously doesn't understand and and then uh spamming it again and again and again and we came to an agreement because he kept finding he was getting himself um hidden by the mods and I said look don't do the copy pasting stay on here and argue your case and he generally does he he makes comments they're pretty stupid but he's allowed to make his comments and he seems to have ceased on this channel um just copy pasting uh rubbish that he doesn't understand for which I'll give him credit. So I'm sure that Gary will see this at some point. So good man.

[00:44:54]>> I really appreciate my my haters. The haters are great because they boost the algorithm. They post comments and dislikes and stuff and get it's great.

[00:45:02]Like they're giving me money. I love >> Yeah. Don't Don't tell them that. Tom [laughter] Erin Meow just super chated $2 Australian and said nothing. Thank you Erin. Much appreciated. Not you not saying anything, but the super chat.

[00:45:15]It's very much appreciate.

[00:45:17]Yeah. Yeah. Um that's right. You get some idiots, they'll come in and they'll say something that's so contentious and I'll pin their comment and of course people rip into them and then they come back and it goes on and on and yeah, it's good for the algo. So, I'm happy with that.

[00:45:34]>> Oh, yeah. I got I had one who uh who argued that shapes and colors in Jesus.

[00:45:40]Uh, that one was >> So, shapes and colors what? Colors what?

[00:45:43]Shapes and colors prove God exists. So, shapes prove God exists and colors prove Jesus exists.

[00:45:49]>> Excellent. I wish I knew. No, no one told me this. [laughter] What?

[00:45:56]>> Um, right.

[00:45:57]>> That was like so colors are are the three colors of fire are red, blue, and green. And that was the colors of the the flame that talked to Noah. And God wouldn't lie to Noah, therefore Jesus. I think that was the complete of his argument.

[00:46:08]>> Okay. I I feel that this argument perhaps needs a little development to convince me. But um now I don't know if this is something contentious because I recognize a name that's mentioned. Um and I think this is to you Tom. Uh Mr. Malert uh super chat is uh $3.99.

[00:46:27]Why does Steve McCrae say you are wrong?

[00:46:29]Now, if that's something contentious, because I know that there are, I believe, court cases around Steve and other people which I have no interest and don't want to get into. So, if it's nothing to do with that, do you know what uh he's talking about? Tom, why does Steve McCrae say you are wrong?

[00:46:45]>> Uh, well, me and Steve disagree on a lot of things, so you'd have to be a lot more specific on that one. But um yeah, me and Steve don't get along because Steve is kind of a a drama queen who does drama more than any argumentation.

[00:46:58]And he's very pedantic on semantics that really don't matter to an argument. But I don't know like the main disagreement we had was on um the definition of atheism, but he didn't say I was wrong.

[00:47:09]Like we never we didn't have a disagreement about that. We just like a factual disagreement. We just disagreed about the definitions of the word. So, I don't know specifically what he's talking about.

[00:47:20]>> You'd have to give like an actual example of Steve saying I'm wrong about something.

[00:47:24]>> Okay.

[00:47:27][laughter] This shapes and color thing had said, "So, colorblind people are atheists." Well, actually, I'm an atheist and I am color blind. Point proven. Excellent. Are you colorblind as well then? Did you become color colorblind just in your high was it high school you said and then you uh lost religion? No, I think it was the moment he made his argument that that shapes and colors prove God. That was when I became color blind.

[00:47:50]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:51]>> It was like a sign from God >> in a spy monster. [laughter] >> Yes. Can you see Jesus? Well, it depends what color he is really, doesn't it?

[00:48:02][laughter] >> Oh dear. Oh, that was it. Mr. Milo said it was about the definition of atheist.

[00:48:10]I mean to to me I know atheist probably does have a formal definition um being well to to me it's it's someone who doesn't believe there's evidence for God or not enough evidence for God to make them believe that God exists.

[00:48:28]>> You know so the definition >> the definition of atheism in philosophy is someone who positively believes there is no God. That's essentially the exclusive definition used in academic philosophy and that's what Steve argues.

[00:48:39]He's correct when he uh my position is that I don't really care what philosophers mean by the word. I'm describing what my position is. And when I use the word atheism, it's uh there's no reason to believe in a god like what you said. That's what most atheists that are just common people use the word to mean today at least.

[00:48:56]>> Yes. Yeah. Exactly. That's the common usage now. But I fully accept the the the more formal usage. And to me it doesn't matter either way. um in that uh that there is nothing whether you can say God does not exist or whether you say there's not enough evidence to show that there's a god makes no odds either way I don't believe and you know it's not a it's not a biggie for me either second best Bob just super chat 5 pounds I'm so happy to have Tump here thanks Mr. sensible. Well, I'm really happy that T Jump came, uh, Bob and thanks, Bob. Um, and I really am. Um, cuz it was one of your subs, wasn't it? Uh, suggested we have a chat.

[00:49:38]>> Yep, definitely was. I got this email from somebody or I think it was actually a text or something during a Discord live stream that I do and they suggested I contact you guys, >> which also a fan of you guys.

[00:49:51]>> Yeah. Yep. Uh cuz he said he uh I think he'd dropped a message on a a live stream chat and said, "Oh, you should talk to T Jump." I said, "Yeah, quite happy to." Uh and next I I think it was only a couple hours later, "Oh, I got an email from TJ." Ah, there we go then.

[00:50:08]Yeah, I I hadn't really I'll be honest, I hadn't really thought about it, but then I suppose you hadn't really thought about contacting me before. So, whoever that was, thanks. got top up my >> Thanks credit to that guy who who I will probably look up and say thank you to when I remember his name.

[00:50:23]>> Yes. Oh, do you get flooded with emails and and do you have a Discord? In which case you get loads of Discord messages and all this stuff and it's so hard to keep up.

[00:50:34]>> Yeah, I I have like uh 1,400 people on my Discord, I think. So, yeah, I have a pretty active Discord run by some awesome mods. Frank's 92. He does most of the work and live streams every few days or starts conversations every few days. So yeah, I'm trying to build that as much as possible. Uh so I do get flooded pretty consistently with stuff there. Not as much on my email though because I have this rule that like if anybody wants me to like come on their show or usually uh or invites me onto their show, they got to pay me 50 bucks.

[00:51:02]So that emails just makes it much more manageable.

[00:51:06]>> Oh, right. And and is that the case?

[00:51:09]>> Yeah. So, like if >> Yeah, I charge 50 bucks for random interviews, random debates, people I've never heard before. So, and it I make a decent amount of money doing that, too.

[00:51:19]>> Nice one.

[00:51:20]>> Just had one yesterday that was paid for.

[00:51:22]>> Um, of course, my my check is in the post.

[00:51:27][laughter] >> Actually, you contacted me before I contacted you. So, um, I'll give you my address for the $50 you're sending me.

[00:51:33]Well, should we just send each other 50 and call it quits?

[00:51:36]>> How's that?

[00:51:36]>> Yeah, that sounds good. Okay, cool. I'll I'll send you 50 pesos. You can send me $50.

[00:51:41]>> Okay.

[00:51:41]>> Pounds.

[00:51:42]>> What's peso worth?

[00:51:42]>> You're in the UK, so give you [laughter] some pounds. I'll send I'll send you.

[00:51:45]>> Okay. Okay. Uh, right. So, what have we got here? Okay. Brian Pop Robson, who I saw just got a big mention on Creaky Blinder. Well done, Brian. I refuse to prove that I exist, says God. For proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing. But, says man, the Babelfish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proved to exist, and so therefore, by your own argument, you don't. QED. Oh dear, says, "God, I hadn't thought of that." And promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

[00:52:12]Absolutely. Are you a fan of um Douglas Adams?

[00:52:17]>> Yes. Big fan. The puddle analogy I think is phenomenal. Uh love his his uh books.

[00:52:23]The Hitchcock's Guide to the Galaxy.

[00:52:24]>> Yeah. Yeah. He's absolutely brilliant, isn't he? The way he thinks of things and just describing something you like talking about Voggon constructor spaceships hanging in the air just like bricks don't. I mean that's that's that's [laughter] inspired.

[00:52:41]>> Absolutely brilliant.

[00:52:42]>> I think and especially because he he's like you. He has a British accent. I think that that gives you like an unfair advantage because I think you get an automatic like 15 IQ points just by having a British accent.

[00:52:51]>> Yeah. But you know why Tom? That's because automatically every Brit is born 15 IQ points higher than their equivalent elsewhere.

[00:52:58][laughter] >> Unfortunately. Unfortunately um some some Brits who are flat earthers then get it deducted very swiftly.

[00:53:05]Yeah. I mean, have you met Boris Johnson? Like, I don't know. I'm skeptical of that one.

[00:53:09]>> Well, [snorts] um yeah, I I don't do politics on this channel. Um I don't mind you you saying something like that, but um I I would actually quite enjoy arguing politics, whether it's someone like uh uh about Boris Johnson or about Biden or about Trump or whatever. I would I find a lot of it really really interesting. Um but that's a shorefire way to uh annoy half your audience. So it is >> maybe that's why I don't have as many subs because I do a lot of politics too.

[00:53:38]>> Okay. Okay.

[00:53:40]Well, I mean that that that's true, but then I suppose it's it's also swings and roundabouts. I mean, if we picked politician X and you were arguing for politician X, then those who are big supporters of politician Y won't touch you with a buy pole. But then you're going to get an awful lot of politician X supporters. So, >> ah, problem is is I'm a centrist, so everybody hates me.

[00:54:01]>> Ah, cool.

[00:54:03]Yes.

[00:54:04]>> Yeah. You want to be the opposite then, don't you?

[00:54:07]>> Sort of an Antarctic war list and everybody will like you.

[00:54:12]>> Yep. Yep. That is the the downside to politics is that it uh it kind of favors the people who are on the extreme right or the extreme left and then everybody in the middle is kind of like uh fence sitters and seen as evil and terrible people >> by both sides. Yes. Yeah. cuz I I the the closest I came to politics was talking not about the actual political views of either side, but just about how people interact with each other and that people should listen and and literally try and put themselves in the other person's shoes and so on. So, um, a lot of people liked it, but quite a few people sort of, um, they didn't give me kicking, but but but expressed that they weren't happy with that. So, that that was the closest I got to it, so I left it. Can I ask you what's the dumbest argument you've ever heard with regard to something like like flat earth or whatever?

[00:55:02]>> Uh the the lights and colors prove God thing is dumber than any of the flat earth arguments. Like most of the flat at least kind of >> they kind of follow like >> containers cause air pressure is pretty dumb. Um >> well actually >> not.

[00:55:18]>> Yeah, they're almost right in one thing cuz you need a surface to have the pressure, don't you? because a pressure is is measured at a surface. But that's what they if you look at the definition it says um it it's the pressure on the wall walls of a container or other surface. They always forget that because >> well technically the surface could just be the sensor. So you can have a giant exactly I I've made exactly that point once before uh in an argument with someone uh and I said I'm sat here. If this is my sensor it's a surface. It's it's registering pressure here. It's not a container. It's a surface. But I don't know.

[00:55:57]What can you do with dumb? Eh, >> bottle it and sell it. I suppose >> that sells extremely well, unfortunately.

[00:56:06]>> Yes. Oh, apparently Boris Johnson was born in America. Actually, I'd heard that before. Instant deduction of IQ points. [laughter] >> That explains it.

[00:56:17]>> This the the thing is about him.

[00:56:19]Whatever you think about his political views, he's he sort of has this aspect of of a Brit, you know, like a bit like Top Gear. Ambitious but crap. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. We'll have a I'm sure people know what I mean. There is something British about heroic failures. Do you remember many many years ago we had a um Olympic uh ski jumper, Eddie the Eagle? He was absolutely hopeless. So I think he came last and everything, but he was a hero.

[00:56:50][laughter] >> Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

[00:56:55]>> Yeah, for sure. I've definitely heard that joke.

[00:56:58]The difference between an American hero and a British hero or American comedy and a British comedy is the British comedy is like the the dad who always loses, who's tried hards and who's really hard to be a success, but just fails at everything. Whereas the American dad is just a complete failure at everything and is just a sloppy guy.

[00:57:15]>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we got um heroes like uh oh, I don't know if you would you have ever seen an old uh series called Some Mothers Do have them, Frank Spencer. And uh >> I don't think I've saw that one, but like Faulty Towers, all that.

[00:57:31]>> Exactly. Yes. Yes. I mean, his heart was in the right place, but he gets everything wrong. Definitely. And yeah, real British hero. Definitely.

[00:57:42]I I love um um Faulty Towers. I love Montipython.

[00:57:48]We we uh tend to get into that every now and then on this channel and then it runs away with us. Especially when I've got numerous guests in uh it, you know, that have pulled into live just for a chat about whatever. Get onto that topic and then we've lost it. But never mind.

[00:58:03][laughter] >> Oh, >> Nights of N.

[00:58:07]Yes. Cut down the tallest tree in a forest with a herring.

[00:58:13]Apparently >> she's a witch. How do you know she's a witch? Well, she looks like you do with witches. You burn her. What else you burn? Wood. Well, what you do with wood?

[00:58:20]It floats. So, so what else floats? A duck. Well, so if she's lighter than a duck, she's a witch.

[00:58:26]>> Yep, definitely. Tell me more of this new science of which you [laughter] speak.

[00:58:32]Yeah, but Gary is of White has just said uh he did Where is it? Uh he did the publicity photos for Eddie the Eagle.

[00:58:41]Good man. And Mr. X Mr. why he remembers him. Yeah, Eddie the Eagle. What a hero.

[00:58:46]We It's a bit like the Jamaican Bob Slay team, isn't it?

[00:58:50]>> Yeah.

[00:58:51]>> Good for them.

[00:58:51]>> They made a movie about that. It was actually a really good movie.

[00:58:55]>> Cool Runnings.

[00:58:57]>> Yes.

[00:58:57]>> Cool Runnings. Yeah. With John Candy. He was the um trainer, wasn't he?

[00:59:02]>> Yep. Yep.

[00:59:04]>> Love that film. That's another recommendation if you haven't seen that.

[00:59:08]>> It was a surprisingly good film for such a lowbudget movie.

[00:59:11]>> Yeah. Well, it was it was a great topic, wasn't it? And uh John John Candy, I can't think of any films that he was uh bad in.

[00:59:21]I I Yeah, really liked him. Um I'm just going to do a I see a see if chat's come in. I'm just going to do a double check just in case any have slipped by.

[00:59:30]Unfortunately, my YouTube won't let me.

[00:59:34]Yes. Yes, there is. Well, some old dude super chatted $5 US saying, "What's a tea jump? A new Olympic sport.

[00:59:43]Yes, it is the Olympic sport of chair sitting and the most effective comfortable chair sitting possible.

[00:59:48]>> Yeah, >> I currently hold the gold medal. Um >> I I think you need to improve your microphone now. You're endlessly uh moving it.

[00:59:57]>> You need need maybe one of those little clip-on mics or something.

[01:00:01]>> I I am too lazy for that. That's I like my microphone because I can just leave it there and >> uh it doesn't because I that's the reason I have it to the side of my head and not in front of me is so that I can just lift it up and get out of the way and not have to move anything.

[01:00:17]>> Yeah.

[01:00:18]>> I mean I love mine too.

[01:00:21]>> Yeah.

[01:00:22]>> Brilliant. On one of those boom arms.

[01:00:24]Excellent thing. Uh second best Bob.

[01:00:26]Thanks. Second best Bob. Super chat again.£5. Can you ask Tom if he'll ever quote debate with Darth Dawkins again?

[01:00:36]>> And probably if we set something up like he doesn't like me very much, but hopefully I'll be able to debate him again because I think that's my most like two of my top three most viewed videos are Darth Dawan debates. I think I have like 35,000 views and 20,000 views or something from those debates.

[01:00:51]So he's a good person to debate because he gets lots of views even though what he says is completely stupid.

[01:00:56]>> What What does he say? because I must admit that is one of those of yours I haven't seen. So what what's he like?

[01:01:01]I've never seen this. I've heard of Darth Dawkins, never actually seen him.

[01:01:05]>> He is a presuppositional apologet apologist. So what he says is is what is your ultimate foundation of everything.

[01:01:11]That is essentially his argument. He asks that over and over and over again.

[01:01:14]And then he brings up common or very niche problems in philosophy that apply to essentially everything in philosophy that are unsolved problems. And he says, "Ha, you can't solve this. Therefore that fails, therefore God.

[01:01:28]>> Yeah. It doesn't quite work like that though, does it?

[01:01:31]>> Nope. It's a argument from ignorance.

[01:01:33]>> Yeah. But but that that's actually a common thing with the with the flat earthers as well. You c you can't you prove gravity. No. Therefore flat earth.

[01:01:44][laughter] >> It is a fundamental uh fallacy used in the vast majority of pseudociences.

[01:01:52]There's like six or seven fallacies that are the core fallacies used in every pseudocience and that is one of the main ones.

[01:01:59]>> Yeah. Um there's a great chart isn't there that have if you ever seen it that that shows all the different fallacies like genetic fallacy and uh well I can't remember each of the fallacies is there with an explanation. Have you seen one of those charts? You can sort of buy them on Amazon or whatever.

[01:02:18]I think there's one with like clouds behind it and you have like the Greek philosopher.

[01:02:23]Yep. Yep. Definitely seen that one.

[01:02:26]>> Oh, Skits Crasher says, "Don't mention the war." He thinks he me he mentioned it once, but he thinks he got away with it. Well, that's cool. Yeah, I didn't mention it at all. Don't mention the war.

[01:02:38]>> The war.

[01:02:39]>> Oh dear. Oh dear, Tom. Yeah, it's it was a Montipython uh sorry um uh Faulty Towers episode and they had some German German guests and of course being German last thing you wanted to do was mention the war.

[01:02:52]>> Oh [laughter] gosh. Yeah, totally.

[01:02:54]>> So he couldn't do anything.

[01:02:55]>> I was thinking like wait the war between America and Britain like when we when we tossed your tea. [snorts] >> Yeah.

[01:03:03]>> I don't know what to say to that.

[01:03:05][laughter] Not without upsetting you.

[01:03:10]It's like um actually those sort of things being able to sort of tease like that. Uh I only went to um America once. I went to Arizona on a two-eek training course. I got really friendly with this uh guy. He was actually an ex-Vietnam vet. And uh yeah, really nice guy. And we used to tease each other something rotten. And he took the Mickey out of the Brits left, right, and center. And all the other people, all of whom were Americans. How the hell can you know you're being rude to him.

[01:03:38]He's a he's a visitor to our country.

[01:03:39]And then I was taking a piss out of Americans and and they they were looking at me, "Oh my god, how come this guy doesn't shoot you?" It it it was just such a great friendship, you know. It was really really good. We just clicked and um yeah, I like teasing people. It it's like the thing between uh the British and the French, except of course we know that the French really are um you know um but it's it's traditional, you know. I think every country's got another country that they um have have as the but their jokes.

[01:04:09]or or >> yeah, most of most of them is America.

[01:04:11]America is the main one.

[01:04:14]>> Well, I've got to say that one time I was there, I absolutely adored it. Uh, every single person I met uh was unfailingly pleasant. Um, and I had a lovely time. No, honestly, I'm sure I could go to perhaps I didn't go to some of the less what is it less or more cubrious areas. I forget which way around that is now, but some of the dodgy areas. I didn't go to some of the dodgy areas. Um but yeah, everyone I I I had dealings with I really really um found pleasant. I mean this guy uh his family invited me back uh and I went back to their home uh took me in for an evening meal a couple times. Um and then he took me shooting because I'd never never touched a gun before and we just asked him about that and uh he showed me all these all these different weapons.

[01:05:01]Yeah, we got this as a 45. We got this other handgun. We got this um was it not Smith and Wesson? I forget the old cowboy sort of rifles. The one with a um that they [ __ ] with a I don't know what it is. Not a Smith and Wesson. God knows. Anyway, show me all this.

[01:05:16]>> Remington. Remington maybe.

[01:05:18]>> Oh, it could be. Could be. But but his his 12-year-old daughter wandered in into his office. So, he had his gun cabinet open and all these guns out and she says, "Oh, my favorite's the 22."

[01:05:29][laughter] There we go. And yeah, he took me out into the desert and we went um shooting which I really really enjoyed and it was a great opportunity because here you can't just go and wander around with your guns and go shooting. It's just not done. Just not done.

[01:05:44]>> Y >> Oh, Paul Kamish, uh thank you Paul.

[01:05:47]Super chat 5 said, "I've actually learned so much more about the earth since arguing with flatearthers that I otherwise wouldn't have." Absolutely, Paul. Definitely. Uh I've I've learned tons so many aspects of the whole subject I wouldn't have been aware of.

[01:06:03]Do you do you find you learn a lot from your arguments from the other side or or from your researches in order to debunk the other side Tom?

[01:06:10]>> Yeah, I think that's the best way to learn is to be pretty well not usually in the case of flat earthers because they don't usually research as much into it. But if you have a competent debater who's really really researched into their position and you've really really researched into your position and you go into a debate and they point out the weaknesses in your position and you point out the weaknesses in their position, >> uh that is the definitely the best way to learn because it it shows you where you need to do >> and to improve your I think there's a there's a quote from the fundamentals of chess 1883. The only way to get smarter is by playing a smarter opponent. And I think that's fundamentally true.

[01:06:51]>> Yeah. Yeah. There's no point in in just whipping someone who can barely play chess, is there? You're not going to learn much then.

[01:06:58]>> Absolutely. What about other debaters?

[01:07:00]Do you watch other debaters for tips and tricks for that from them?

[01:07:04]>> I used to I definitely used to watch all the Hitchens Harris Dawkins Denn debates with uh William Link Craig and Frank Turk >> and all the theist guys. That's something I used to do, but not as much anymore.

[01:07:17]>> William Lane Craig annoys me, though.

[01:07:19]He's just so He's just so full of himself and so cockshaw.

[01:07:25]Isn't he the one who who basically justified um was it the killing of children or something biblically? Biblically.

[01:07:37]>> Yeah, that's definitely something that many theists defend. That's one of the ones I bring up a lot that uh God drowned babies. Drowning babies is immoral. Therefore, God is immoral. And so I just try to force them to try to show that make them defend drowning babies is a moral thing.

[01:07:52]>> Yeah. Cuz basically was arguing, well, I go straight to heaven, so it's all right.

[01:07:56]>> Yeah. Well, try that in a court of law.

[01:07:59]See how far you get. How moral is that?

[01:08:03]>> Yep.

[01:08:05]>> Yeah. So, I don't particularly like him.

[01:08:08]I mean, he's obviously a very clever man, but uh yeah, Hitchens and Dawkins, I think probably out of the two, I probably prefer Hitchens. Uh I mean, yeah, he's he is so clever, so incredibly clever, and can construct the most wonderful arguments.

[01:08:29]I don't think I've ever seen him struggle with anyone. Not seriously.

[01:08:35]>> Yeah, for sure. I think that each of the horsemen have their strengths. So, I think Hitchens was the most eloquent. He definitely had the best vocabulary and best quips more than any of the other ones. I really like Dawkins biology stuff that is >> extremely useful debates. And then Harris is really good at the philosophy stuff >> uh with on >> Oh, sorry. Go on.

[01:08:59]>> Yeah. His views on free will. I pretty much just stole his free will argument because it was so good.

[01:09:03]>> Yeah. I mean, Hitchens is also so incredibly well or was incredibly welltraveled and knows so much about the various religions uh and um the historical stuff talking about uh things that have happened for instance in somewhere like Afghanistan or or um uh Iraq or whatever going back and being able to pull that in, you know, back in 70 so and so when when Hussein was doing this or whatever and he's just he was well just incredible and it's such a great loss, such a massive loss. I remember I remember one of his one of his debates uh somebody asked him if a bunch of religious people came out of a religious institution were walking towards you in a street would you rather it be Christian Christians or Muslims and he said I've actually had that happen to me and here's a list of cities who where that's happened and but I wouldn't prefer either one uh in those cities because he's been so many places in the Middle East and in extremist places in the world with religion. So, I think you just listed like 12 cities with the letter B just to make the point.

[01:10:10]>> Yes, I've seen that one. It's brilliant, isn't it? And one of the um most interesting questions I've posed to someone or or the question I'm I'm most pleased about that I posed to someone who was a religious person was that if we were in a restaurant and and you suddenly started choking and going blue because something stuck in your throat.

[01:10:32]Would you rather I I prayed over you or got a Christian to pray over you or I performed the Heimlick maneuver?

[01:10:40]And actually the guy came up with a good good answer. Uh and and he said um I would I would just pray that you do the Heimlick maneuver [laughter] on it. So I thought that was quite clever. You know, I gave him, you know, top marks for that. But yeah, I I thought it was quite an interesting thing. If you actually had to put your life on the line, would you do it or would you? Because they they often say that every soldier in a foxhole starts praying for praying to God, which I'm sure >> atheists in foxholes.

[01:11:08]>> Exactly. Exactly. Um but would that be the same the other way round? Um how many uh religious people will actually turn towards the medical field to try and save them if if it came to that at the last minute?

[01:11:24]>> Yeah. Unfortunately in America it happens kind of often and there are many many court cases parents who have been sent to prison because their kid had diabetes and instead of bringing them to the doctor and giving them insulin they just prayed >> and ended up killing their killing their child. So that's a pretty common thing unfortunately.

[01:11:42]>> Um well Jehovah's Witnesses isn't it that don't take uh blood. Um so is that does that tend to be among Jehovah's Witnesses or it's other religious people who just just believe in a religious solution?

[01:11:54]There's lots and lots of examples. So, here in Minneapolis where I live, there's a huge community of uh Muslims who don't have a I think it's smallox >> smallox.

[01:12:05]>> One of the diseases e either with small pox or the one that starts with p polio the ones that we eradicated in the world >> because they don't take vaccines there's a resurges in those communities. So, it happens in Muslim communities. Lots of Christian communities have the same thing where they're refusing to take vaccines for COVID and other vaccines that they don't think are biblical. So, it's a pretty common thing that religious medical coverage over >> God insurance.

[01:12:34]>> We've had that here with things like um uh the MMR measel mumps and rebella and measles is is coming back. I think here it's mainly people who just don't you you know they're just antiax for a multitude of reasons rather than just religious. I'm sure some of them are religious but I think that's the minority because that's that's another thing. Obviously America is a very religious country comparatively um you know I could say at work if if anyone said to me oh um Mr. S, I nearly said my name then Mr. S, what religion are you?

[01:13:08]And I'll say no no I'm atheist. And I would have no qualms with doing that and no one would be shocked or stunned because probably I don't know half the people in the room at least probably are atheists. But would you feel as comfortable saying that in the states if I asked you? I suppose some people would. But is that >> for me personally? No. I I wouldn't care at all because I I don't have any risks of losing my employment. But there are lots and lots of serious risks of being an atheist organizations espec uh the Satanist organizations which is essentially just atheists who like to people.

[01:13:45]>> Sorry they you just dropped just dropped out there that the atheists who like to what?

[01:13:50]>> Uh Satanists. Atheists who are essentially justists who just troll religious people that they worship Satan and they call themselves Satanists.

[01:13:58]>> Yeah. um they can be fired from their jobs and ostracized from communities. Um there's a huge problem of that in America. There's this uh there's this organization where there's pastors who have become atheists and they have to stay underground because if they admit they're atheists, of course they're going to get fired. Um >> Yeah. Although Well, are they still pastors though?

[01:14:20]>> Yeah, they're still pastors.

[01:14:23]>> Difficult position to hold though, isn't it really? I could understand that a bit.

[01:14:27]>> Yeah.

[01:14:29]I mean, they've gone to college. They've spent $50,000 to get a degree in the only thing they can do with their degree is be a pastor because what else can you what else that degree good for? And now they've become an atheist and lost their faith. Well, what are they supposed to do? Because if they lose their job and they have no way to like feed their family because most of them have families. They just have to keep being pastors and just pretending to be Christian because they they can't just tell the truth because their community is quite judgmental about that.

[01:14:58]>> Well, I think if if I was in that position that I'd be trying to think of some solution. You know who has got a solution? Matt Deahante.

[01:15:10]you know, no doubt he's he's, you know, well, he's making his living now, I presume, by um doing what he does >> because he he he um uh went to Bible college or got a Bible degree or something, didn't he?

[01:15:25]>> Uh well, I'm not sure what his academic background is. I don't think he has a degree. I'm not sure. I don't remember though.

[01:15:32]>> May maybe not. But he certainly was trained the seminary. That was it. He went to the seminary, didn't he? I think that's the word. I don't know that much about it but basically he was a religious person fully believed and was training and at some point um turned away but >> okay but I can actually understand you know if if I was running the church and some of my pastors then turned around and said you know what we don't believe in God well I don't really think that their position is tenable as their job is to preach preach God um Yeah. Yeah.

[01:16:09]>> But with other jobs, you know, that that aren't based around religion, whether it's working in a shop or or being a news reporter or whatever, your personal beliefs in this country for the very main part doesn't matter a chop, which I think is a much better way to be, place to be. People can be religious, but if you're not, that's not a problem at all.

[01:16:34]>> Yeah. Yeah, that's what I think that what the churches should do in those cases is uh have a policy that if you become an atheist, we'll just move you to a different position where it doesn't it's not contingent on your belief or something. And I think that would be a lot more fair than just firing you and kicking you out of your community. That that seems a little bit harsh.

[01:16:51]>> Yes. Yeah. Because you would think that of all um employers, you would like to think based on their philosophy that they'd be a little more loving and understanding.

[01:17:04][laughter] [cough and clears throat] >> I mean, their god did draw millions of babies. So, >> that's true. That's true. But then, of course, they went straight to heaven, so that's all right, isn't it? William Lane Craig. Uh Paul Camish has just super chat again5. It's a clear night. I have my telescope out and the moon is almost full. I wish the Earth would stop rotating so I don't have to keep tracking it. Yeah, life's a [ __ ] Paul.

[01:17:25]Yeah, >> never mind.

[01:17:28]You want to get one of them their um um mounts, don't you? EQ mounts, which apparently according to someone now prove that the earth is flat. Quite how?

[01:17:38]I don't know. I don't think that they understand an EQ mount.

[01:17:42]Oh, and some old dude has just also super chatted $5. Past pastors like that should write a book. Well, actually that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:17:51]>> Well, so that is like what you mentioned with Matt Dillah Hunty and writing a book. Those >> are very rarely financially successful. Those are not things that are likely to provide you with a stable income. So Matt Dillanti is extremely lucky. I'm extremely lucky to be able to have the income that I have, but I'm already in like the top 10% of YouTubers as it is. top probably top five to three% with just how much I make with 8,000 subs. So being a successful YouTuber or writing a book and having it be a commercial success are extremely extremely rare. They're like being a sports star pretty much.

[01:18:27]It's not a reliable way to make an income.

[01:18:31]>> No, but um if you got a story to tell, you may well be able to make something from it. I there's I'm sure there's other options, but I I mean you said that that that you were brought brought up religious. Well, for me, I was uh brought up when I was a kid um to go to church, but uh there was no real um family background with that. So, I I stopped from when I was about 12 years old. Then I looked into religion again in around 20 years old for a couple years and then um that's when I finally turned away from it for good. Um, so yeah, at that time let's say I had I could imagine okay that I was really getting into it and decided to make my career in it and now where I am now could I carry on doing that career feeling how I feel today? No, I couldn't. I I it's not just am I am I lying to Well, you would be lying to people, wouldn't you? If you you think to yourself, I don't believe in God, but then you're telling all these people that God will do this or God will do that. that is lying to them I suppose.

[01:19:42]>> Yeah. There's a huge moral dilemma that people in that situation have to go through which is very unpleasant that you have this career path based on a subjective belief and then you lose the belief and everyone around you is essentially wanting you to reinforce their belief of that thing you no longer believe in.

[01:20:02]>> Yeah.

[01:20:04]I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. Um, and I would definitely have to do something even if it was I I think to be honest I I would feel so uncomfortable.

[01:20:14]I would stack shelves in the supermarket or whatever. I would rather do that and than tell people uh things that I felt or knew not to be true. I I couldn't live with myself.

[01:20:30]But >> But uh if you had to risk losing your family's food source, would you still do it? Yeah. Um, that's a good point. Um, I would have to find some way. I would have to I just just Well, it's very difficult. Very difficult, Tom. Uh, and I would not want to be in that position. Uh, and I feel for the people who are in that position.

[01:20:57]Um, but like you said, it would be nice if the church with the people who it finds are in that position dealt with them in a more supportive manner. Hey, by treating them like that, you may persuade them that they're wrong and and that look, the church is still showing me love. Maybe they're right. Yeah, it's a possibility, isn't it?

[01:21:15]>> Yep. Yep. Oh, I remembered it's the Clergy Project. The Clergy Project is an organization, a worldwide organization for pastors who have left the faith.

[01:21:24]>> Okay.

[01:21:24]>> To help them out. the the clergy project. Um there's another super chat from some old dude again. $5 a children's book. Start them young.

[01:21:33]That's right. Yeah. Yeah. You get the children, you got them for life, haven't you?

[01:21:38]And someone has pointed out that in the UK most Christians are nominal Christians. There is there is a lot of the um do the do church on a Sunday and and weddings and um uh weddings, christenings and funerals and that's it.

[01:21:54]And other than that, you don't think about it. But I think that's a lot less.

[01:21:58]Uh I when I was young, um Sundays were Sundays. All the shop all the shops were shut. Um there was nothing to do and a lot more people went to church. But now it's just not that important to a great many people. I know that it is to some.

[01:22:15]Yeah. It's the greatest the great irony is that uh churches in the UK were funded by the government. Churches in America were not funded by the government. But because of that in America had to fight like a natural selection style for support from their bases which made them much more virulent strains of religion [laughter] and got much more people involved and so now now we have we have the virulent delta versions of religion in our country and you guys have the the >> but I'm not so sure about the fun I mean I know that the US has got separation of church and state um and the church of England is you know the queen is is the head of the Church of England. But I think it's it's quite traditional. I don't think there's any real connection.

[01:23:00]Although having said that, there's a number of bishops that's sat I don't know if they still do get a place in the House of Lords and help vote on some of our laws. They're not voted in. They're bishops. So, they get in a number of them. I think they've cut the number of those though.

[01:23:16]>> I always felt comfortable.

[01:23:17]>> The churches in the UK, aren't they funded by the government so that they get paid by the government? No, no, no. I mean, the Church of England is very wealthy, owns a lot of land and got masses of investments and so on for historic reasons. Um, so I think they're okay. Although they're that they also have income from their members, but due to the membership falling, more and more of those churches are struggling and and either closing or having various issues.

[01:23:44]But other church because there's lots of other churches here just like there are in the States, perhaps not quite so many. Um, and for them I think they're pretty much have to be independent.

[01:23:55]That's my understanding. If anyone knows different, let me know. Um, and actually there's another couple of super chats come in. Thank you guys. I really appreciate this. Uh, let's just refresh and have a look at this. Uh, all right. Yes. Second best Bob again.

[01:24:11]Thanks, Bob. Uh,5. Imagine if there really is a God and heaven. You die. get to heaven to be with God and bask in his glory forever.

[01:24:24]Sounds a bit boring to me. I'll let you into a secret when I was a kid. I said I did go to church and uh I always remember in in uh uh the Lord's Prayer which says uh thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And I the only thing I could think of bearing I was about eight or nine years old was hold on heaven. That's where there's all these little angels that haven't got any clothes on and that playing harps. I don't want to be sat around with no clothes on. [laughter] Hey. Uh, and Signis TSP, uh, super chat $5 US. Check out Bishop John Shelby Spong. Is that really his name? You making it? He's making it up. Bishop John Shelby Spong, who didn't believe in God, but held his position in the Episcopal Church and wrote successful books.

[01:25:10]Yeah.

[01:25:11]Well, I have a feeling that that um there's quite a few uh priests and whatever in this country who okay the resurrection it's just just a just a story and this is just this you know very very liy livered uh Christians I think there's I think there's a lot of that >> cultural Christians I think is what we call them here >> so what do you call them >> cultural Christians the people who the culture of Christianity but don't actually believe in any of the spiritual >> stuff Yes.

[01:25:43]Oh. Oh, and it's some old dude, you're busy. Thank you very much, sir. Just super check $5 US. Churches in the US should not be taxexempt.

[01:25:52]Yes.

[01:25:54]>> What do you think about that?

[01:25:55]>> Is a I mean that's a good idea. So like um making churches not tax exempt though has a really big side effect. It means that they can then because in in America governments or companies are people. So companies can donate to political organizations and give them lots of money. And so if churches could then had to pay taxes, then they could also contribute to political figures. And so then we would see a lot more of the more religious figureheads being given a significant more portion of money.

[01:26:26]>> Uh and so that would be the downside to making them taxed. But taxing them would also provide a lot of social services that we could then fund. So it's but then if the religious people got into office they would then defund all those social services. So there's positives and negatives to that policy.

[01:26:45]>> Yeah. I did hear a story. I don't know the details but the rough idea that uh some some church was doing some sort of tax wiggle or or claiming for some sort of money to do something to help with the building of their church. So very dodgy considering the separation of church and state but they got away with whatever this was. So some Muslims locally thought, "Oh, good. We'll do that as well." And then the Christians really hated that that the that that these Muslims were were getting benefit from the the tax system or whatever the the thing was. I don't don't know if it if it rings a bell with you at all, but >> Oh, that happens a lot. So the the most hilarious example is the Ark Park. Um the Ark Park was given several like $50 million in funding from the government to to build itself, which was just ridiculous. the the young earth creationist. They built a scales size version of the ark with all Noah's animals in it and they got a lot of government funding and that's not good.

[01:27:46]>> No, >> just because they're developing real estate and >> raising the property values. But >> and then and did that then happen that that uh some Muslims uh applied for something similar >> and that >> I don't think so. I don't not in that state because that state is super >> Okay. But it was a similar sort of thing you see that that they they were very clever, managed to weedle their way around all the rules so that they either got some money or were supported in some way, but then they were spitting feathers when when when some Muslims did exactly the same. Hey, fair enough. I mean, I I believe in absolute separation of church and state. If someone wants to be religious, as wrong as I feel they they are, I feel they have the right to hold those beliefs. Um I I feel more uncomfortable with those beliefs being taught to children. Um but um yeah, I don't think the state should support any religion at all.

[01:28:43]>> Yeah, I totally agree. Um and many of the atheist communities have been doing the same thing. Uh so they follow the same pattern religious people do and say, "Oh, they got a religious exemption. So we're going to start our own religion now. We're going to call it the the Satanist religion or the spaghetti monster religion and then we're going to be taxexempt now." Bless his noodly appendage. Of course.

[01:29:02]>> Yeah. I mean that that was that was another thing that was inspired that that lad who wrote that letter to um whichever educational board, wasn't it about the spaghetti monster demanding equal time for all the theories evolution, creation, and flying spaghetti monsterism.

[01:29:20]I mean, it was absolute pure logic.

[01:29:23]>> But I don't think they could understand that.

[01:29:26]>> Yeah. The Texas Board of Education is not known for its uh logic.

[01:29:30]>> No. No. But uh when I first heard of uh spaghetti monsterism, Pastifarianism, isn't it? Um.

[01:29:38]>> Yep.

[01:29:38]>> Absolutely brilliant.

[01:29:40]>> Um and there's another super chat from channel right. Thank you channel £5. I'm an atheist so let's create heaven on earth. I think UK churches get tax breaks. Okay. Uh I'm just don't know about that channel. you know, if you say so. Um, in which case I think that's wrong. I feel a bit uncomfortable as well in that, um, there's a good side in that the churches, the Church of England supports a lot of schools in this country, Tom. Um, and in some areas, it's almost the only choice. It was in my area. My daughter had to go to the Church of England School. Now, to be clear, it's not um, it's not like it's rammed down their necks. It's more the ethos of of the school, but there's a certain amount of religion and I don't feel comfortable that it should be left to state that a church is running is is providing and running schools. I think that that should be uh the the government, you know, the education department or whatever.

[01:30:42]>> Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that's there's a lot of private Catholic Christian schools here. I went to them and they do lots of ridiculous religious stuff like masses on Wednesdays and Sundays. It's like they move the mass to Wednesday just so they can force the students to go to the mass which is ridiculous.

[01:30:58]But yeah, I think that's education or kids should be monitored very closely and we should make them do the very least stuff required for them to become successful adults which would include getting rid of all religious garbage.

[01:31:14]>> Yeah. Um the position I was in with uh Mrs. sensible is going back at the time when we first met, she was religious.

[01:31:25]I'm not. And when we it came to children, of course, you think, right, what do we do? What do we tell them? Um, and that's a really tough circle to square because one of us is not going to get our wishes, if you like. Uh an agreement we came to was that they would go to church um when they were young. However, when they said, you know, I don't want to go.

[01:31:53]If we said, well, why don't you want to go? If they just sort of said, well, I'd rather sit here, watch telly, or whatever, that wasn't good enough. But if they turned around and said, well, I I don't believe in God because of this.

[01:32:03]What however we felt about that argument, then at that point, they would no longer have to go. and it's worked uh quite successfully. Uh in my eldest daughter, she is religious and she actually works with sort of religious charity. Um but my other two are not.

[01:32:20]They're both atheist. Um it's a tough ask. I I I don't know your background, Tom, and I don't wish to pry. Um but could you have you ever been or could you imagine yourself in that position?

[01:32:31]How would you equate that if there's you an atheist? If if your partner is a Christian, Muslim, whatever. Um, so one of you wants a religious upbringing for children, the other doesn't. How would you square that circle? Or would you do something similar, do you think?

[01:32:48]>> Uh, well, I am a sellout for hot blonde.

[01:32:50]So, if she was a hot blonde, I would convert to flat earth and just teach them flat-earthism every day.

[01:32:56]>> Oh, there you go. [laughter] That's probably a more persuasive argument than anything Nathan Oakley has [laughter] put forward.

[01:33:09]>> Yeah, that's what we want.

[01:33:10]>> When we do that debate on flat earth, I think this is going to be my strategy. I think this is a good argument to go with.

[01:33:14]>> Well, you're you're just going to be um you're going to turn up as a a blonde bombshell to win your argument, are you?

[01:33:20]So, you won't you won't be able to persuade them with a globe, but hey, you're that good-looking, they'll go with it. [laughter] >> That's the thing. It's going to get get a nice enough wig. Uh, some makeup. Got this.

[01:33:30]>> Yeah. Yeah. This channel is going downhill fast. [laughter] Oh, man. Well, um, I do actually have uh a couple people in the live waiting room. Uh, Tom, I don't know if you you What What's the time there? It's half 10 here. So, what's it about 4 where you are?

[01:33:50]>> Yep.

[01:33:51]>> Yeah. I I don't know. Have you got sort of half an hour just to chat a little more if I bring a couple people in or do you need to run off or >> Sure. Sure. It'll be another 50, but it'll be fine.

[01:34:00]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And of course, internet time. I charge back at probably about the same rate, you [laughter] know. All right. Let's bring him in. Um, we've got a guy uh who had a channel called Casual Spaceman.

[01:34:14]Nice guy. Let me bring him in. Hello.

[01:34:17]Good evening, Cash. How are you?

[01:34:20]>> Good evening. How are you?

[01:34:21]>> Well, I'm a bit louder than you. Let me turn you up a bit. You're here live with myself and T Jump. And I'm going to bring in Captain Welshy as well. Hello, Captain Welshy. How are you?

[01:34:34]Quiet.

[01:34:35]>> Oh, there you go.

[01:34:37]>> There you are. There you are. Yeah. How are you guys?

[01:34:41]>> Yeah, doing good. Doing good. Got a little message from Colon to say that he was feeling a bit hot and bothered and tired and so he's gone to cool himself down and get some rest. Oh, not not because of the idea of Tom Jump in a blonde wig. Whatever. [laughter] >> That might have had something to do with it. I don't know. But yeah, don't get just just very hot.

[01:35:01]>> Yeah, that's understandable. So, what do you guys think about any of the stuff that uh Tom and I have talked about tonight? Anything you agree with, disagree with?

[01:35:10]>> Um, couldn't really disagree with much to be honest with you. Um, I'm I'm an atheist. I'm also a humanist as well. So um you know I've got um still have a respect for you know for for religions.

[01:35:22]Um you know my my thoughts really just are that um well all humanists really believe obviously don't believe in a non nomant being uh we believe that you know you live your life to the to the to the fullest because if you if you if you believe that there's a another life an alternate life or an afterlife then you're not going to live your life to the fullest. So that's why we don't believe in an afterlife. Um we also believe in removing the um from church from state as well. That's the other thing. But yeah, but you know pretty much everything you said I can't I can't really disagree with at all.

[01:35:57]>> So So you hit it here first. T Jump is right about everything. Everything I say is correct and just >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I that's what I heard T Jump and um he couldn't disagree with anything either of us said, which means that I'm al also totally correct with everything I said. Well, that's nice, isn't it? [laughter] >> Being being correct is subjective, isn't it? I mean, somebody else might disagree with you there. [laughter] >> Yeah, but they'd be wrong, wouldn't they?

[01:36:24]>> Who are they to argue with? Me and Tom [laughter] said, I um don't think I didn't I don't disagree with uh you, Mr. Ole, with E Trump. To be honest, I I I don't have any personal problem with religion, but I do not believe in it. Uh >> and I personally I I don't have any problem believing people's beliefs, but when you start stepping out the boundaries of extremism, that's when I have a problem with it.

[01:36:53]>> So stepping out the boundaries of what?

[01:36:57]>> Extremis.

[01:36:58]>> Oh, extremism. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:36:59]>> Yeah. Into extremism.

[01:37:01]>> Yeah.

[01:37:02]>> Yeah.

[01:37:03]>> Yeah. I've never really understood that.

[01:37:05]um with things like the Islamic State.

[01:37:08]Um okay, so you've got your religious views which a great many people disagree with. Do you really think that going around chopping people's heads off is going to solve anything? And even if there's several tens of thousands of you, you ain't going to convert the whole world. Where do you think you're going with this?

[01:37:28]Well, I I think religion in itself I think because I've heard this argument before that they say that religions cause wars. I I don't I don't believe that because religion is a is a human construct um just as violence is. So I think people like ISIS and all the rest of it really only use it for um as a catalyst really for for political means and also hatred to be quite honest. um you know and and that's same with with any any kind of religious extremism >> demon demonizing your position.

[01:37:59]>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Um so you know I don't I don't I you know again that's where my humanist principles come from.

[01:38:05]You know we we don't believe that um religion causes wars. I think because people cause wars.

[01:38:11]>> I'm not sure I would agree with that. So I would say that um there are certain tenants in religion that are in indoctrinated into the children and the people who believe it. So for example, if you change a few lines of the Quran, I think Sam Harris used this argument. If he said instead of atheists or people who leave the faith shall be killed, if you said all redheads will be killed, well then you would find an equally prevalent epidemic of uh the slaughtering of redheads instead of the slaughtering of atheists. because the reason that those people are targeted is because not because of the the people who wrote who who created the religion but because the book itself said this and this is what is taught to the children who are brought up in the religion. And so I think that the religion doctrines that the religion teaches are in fact a contribution to violence and to war which just the human feelings themselves wouldn't explain.

[01:39:09]like the fact that uh halal meat or kosher meat are prevalent in those religions isn't simply because of human desires. It's a it's a really arbitrary criterion that happens to be what was written in the texts and that doctrine has been passed down and which is why that arbitrary criterion is so prevalent. And I think that many of those arbitrary criterions would include reasons that we went to war and kill people.

[01:39:37]>> I see where you're coming from. But who created those tenants and who created those criteria?

[01:39:42]>> Humans, of course.

[01:39:43]>> Humans did. Yeah. Exactly. So, you know, so that's that's why I think it's it's a human construct. It's not really it's it's really it's a figment. That's all it is. Religion is just a figment. Okay.

[01:39:51]Yeah, I understand. I hear what you're saying. You know, it's it was created whatever religion it might be. It could be hundreds of years or thousands of years ago and it's passed down. But still um because if you look at right if you look at modern day ISIS at the moment if you look at um what they actually believe and what's it called Sharia law right it it's just a social political set of rules that's really all it is you know and any political and any political um theology is just again it's just a human construct. So what they're actually using is they're using that using that as a as a catalyst as a means to actually put their view of the world on onto other people and if you don't like it then you die you know that that's not so it's not it's not the religion itself in it in itself that's actually creating the hatred although I hear what you're saying because people will actually be brought up into that and therefore they're doing it but still it's still there it's still a human construct whenever it was started or however it was actually started human beings started it you know there's no >> I this human construct.

[01:40:52]>> I could understand your point if all religions had the same effect. But if you take an extremist Buddhist or an extremist Janist and compare that to an extremist Muslim or an extremist Christian, there's vastly different levels of violence in those positions.

[01:41:07]Like an extremist Janist >> is someone who like wears a a cheesecloth over their mouth so they don't take in a fly because they're so uh infatuated with the doctrines of non-violence which are the fundamental tenants of that religion. And so I think that even though religions are reflections of humans natures who wrote them or the tenants that were important who wrote them, the the fact that the religion focuses on very specific parts of human nature is a feature of the religion itself and not just a feature of human nature in general. And so I think that the fact that certain religions focus on certain aspects of human nature make them more prevalent to encourage violence than others. And so I think that the religion itself because it focuses on those particular tenants of human nature as opposed to other ones is a factor in contributing to violence and war as opposed to other religions that focus on different tenants like Janism or Buddhism.

[01:42:05]>> Uh yeah, I couldn't I couldn't disagree that. But then if you look okay look at look at the values of what Christianity is supposed to mean. It's supposed to be u you know a love and that you have an omittent being. You're supposed to Jesus and Christ supposed to love us all and all the rest of it as well. Okay. is built is supposed to be built on on love and understanding, but you can still get extremism within Christianity. You still get extremism within um within Catholicism. It does happen. Same with Judaism. Fair enough. Yeah, there are.

[01:42:31]What's that? Happy Father's Day to the best dad in the world. Oh, in the whole >> my daughter made it. [laughter] >> You just put me right off my train of thought. Thank you.

[01:42:41]>> Sorry. I've been She keeps asking me, "Have you shown it on your live stream yet?" And I kept forgetting. Yeah.

[01:42:46]>> [laughter] >> My daughter made that. Sorry guys. Let let me just read a couple of super chats which might feed into some of what you're talking about. First one, not so much. Now pinion super chatted 55 croner. When little miss now asked me about Jesus, I find it very hard to explain in a proper way. We are completely godless in our family. Any parental tips? Well, uh actually now if you want to drop me a line sometime, um I'm happy to chat about that. Okay. Um it's diffic it is difficult. Um but the the two which seem to be more related some old dude um super chat $5 uh dollars if you want to live your life to the fullest what does believing in an afterlife have to do with that uh to my mind what it means I forget was that you Matt or was it you captain me mentioned about >> no yeah it was me >> it was you um the fact that if you if you're going if you're guaranteed an afterlife or whatever what does this one matter you know I think that's where you're coming from when you say that >> yeah yeah pretty much so so you know it's yeah it's that general of concept I think put you know put forward is that you you know okay um believe in this and and believe in Jesus as your savior therefore you're going to go to heaven or um believe Allah and follow his laws then you are going to go to heaven you know you're going to get 72 virgins or whatever it might be all these wonderful things so they paint this picture of this wonderful place that you're going to go to uh so I don't really think that necessarily Christians will leave leave um fuller lives necessarily than than somebody who may be a humanist. I'm I'm speaking in general terms that for that very reason. So I think that's that's the reason for and that's you know that's kind of what what you know what we believe. You know if you if you think that if you just have you know that you have one life and eventually at some point we all agree to stop breathing and die. You know that's just nature. It's you can't get away from it. So if you try and live your life to the fullest, you you know, you're going to live a much more fulfilled life than actually thinking that, okay, well, when I die, I'm going to go to heaven and therefore I'm going to get all these wonderful things because it doesn't m doesn't really matter. That's I can't really I can't really simplify it anymore.

[01:44:52]>> I I agree. I agree. And that's how I took what you said as well, Matt. Um and uh Mittel >> actually I would I would disagree a bit.

[01:45:01]So So I'd say that religion has been extremely beneficial to people's psychology. Like there's tons and tons of studies on the happiness level of people who are religious versus the happiness level of people who are atheists. And in general, >> people who are religious tend to have happy or tend to be happier because of course they have this inflated view that there is this ultimate skydaddy who's looking out for them and they have an ultimate life that's coming after them and they're going to see all of their dead relatives again which obviously if you had that belief you'd be a lot less depressed because it would be the world would be a lot less depressing in general. And so having these false beliefs can actually be very beneficial psychologically for people and give them a false but nonetheless real positive emotional state that isn't there without those false beliefs. And so it can actually make people happier to believe false things. And so like even though I accept atheism is true, I would if believing would make me happier, I would still prefer to believe than to be an atheist because I think happiness is more important than truth and they aren't always connected.

[01:46:05]>> I I don't think I don't think I'm necessarily talking about whether you're happier or not. It's actually filling your life with more, you know, a lot more things like, you know, >> as in worthwhile things or >> Yeah. Yeah. like a bucket list or something like that, you know. Yeah.

[01:46:18]Worth more worthwhile things, not necessarily happiness. Yeah. I I totally agree with you that that people that believe in in in lots of different things are are can be generally you're a lot happier and a lot less depressed and totally agree I wouldn't never disagree with that but it's just filling your life with uh with more things you know that that you enjoy or what other people might enjoy whatever it is might you be whether it's helping other people or whether it's going on going traveling the world or whatever it might be but um yeah that's that's pretty much really what I was where I was coming from.

[01:46:47]Well, the the other point that came in from Mitt Velz uh for5 pounds, thank you. Um which is to do with the extremism side of things. Extremist religions are supported by moderates.

[01:46:58]Moderates support extremism just by existing. What do you think of that then guys?

[01:47:06]>> Yeah, that's technically true. So um like if we take extremist Islam versus extremist Janism uh there are obviously violent people in every single religion.

[01:47:17]That's definitely violent people in every ideology because part of humans are just inherently violent. But being violent in a religion which violence means that you're much more likely to get funding, support, views, uh all kinds of things from the moderates because because they identify with the religion that you share and what you're doing as an extremist is condoned by religion, then they will feel religiously justified you. Whereas if what you're doing is contradicting a religion like um Matt mentioned Christianity is founded on Jesus uh and so things would be against a large portion of people's interpretation of Christianity means they're far less likely to give to someone who was a violent Christian. Whereas if you believe in a much more violrone religion then you have a much larger base that you're going to get support from. And so that's that's another one of the features where I think that the religion itself is in fact a contributing factor to violence.

[01:48:26]>> So do you think do you think that the world would be a better off place if it never had had religion Tom? I mean you said that it can make people happy which I do understand but if if we scrubbed it from the history books no one's ever heard of it. No one's thought about this thing called God. Do you think the world would be a better place or no different?

[01:48:46]Oh definitely it would be a worse place.

[01:48:48]So religion was extremely better that was before religion. So religion is a feature of evolution that was replacing or that was useful in a way that it produced uh cohesive activities of groups in order to make us more stable as a as a species so that we can have larger cooperative uh societies because if you're Christian and they're Christian okay well now you have the same values and you can adopt the same principles you can go into their society you know what you're supposed to do whereas if you're Christian and they're uh volcano uh Mayans or whatever and you go into their society and you act completely differently, you're not going to get along very well. So these religious ideas worked as a way to promote cohesion and similar values within a group which produced much more successful societies and without that there would be a lot more war and disagreement. So religion was better than the thing before it but obviously today we can replace it with something even better than that which is like science, rationalism, humanism, any of those kinds of things. But I don't think that getting rid of religion would be a good thing any more than getting rid of, for example, spears would be a good thing. Like obviously spears did a bad thing. Lots of killing was done with spears, but it was an improvement to the stuff before that allowed us to move move on technologically to the next step. And so I think religion overall is kind of like that. It's a stepping stone socially that helped humans in a great great many ways. That's why it's so successful. That's why religion is prevalent everywhere in the world was because it was extremely beneficial from an evolutionary standpoint. And not having that stepping stone, I don't think would be a good thing for humanity. Uh overall, I think that it's a good thing that we did have religion and that we moved on from the thing that was before it. But I think that now it's time that we move on to the next thing.

[01:50:35]>> I was just going to say u about Okay, so we've we've had historically had religion and the benefits that it has brought. Should should it be lost now?

[01:50:46]thinking that that there's actually quite quite a kickback by many religious against science >> and obviously they're feeding into things like okay flat earth but that's a joke but they're feeding back into things like antivax and stuff like that.

[01:51:00]Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So now that we have a more successful methodology that has brought more benefits which is science and many things in science contradict religious tenants there's a conflict between religion and science and we have to decide which one's better and well science is the better one by definitively without any kind of >> debate whatsoever and so we should definitely say >> as the Daly Lama said if science and Buddhism contradict science is right and so I respect the leader of the Buddhist faith there because he got it. He got exactly right in that statement.

[01:51:33]>> But of course, if you decided, right, actually, we'll ditch science. We'll go back to religion. Then the question is which is the right one because there's no point having the wrong one.

[01:51:43]>> Yeah. It's whichever one you were born into because then it makes you feel good.

[01:51:46]>> Funny that, isn't it?

[01:51:47]>> Yeah.

[01:51:48]>> Funny that.

[01:51:49]>> True.

[01:51:51]>> So, Sleet has just said, "Is the Borg a religion?" Well, I don't know about that, but I am a Jedi. I did put that down on the census in whatever year it was. Religion. Jedi.

[01:52:00]>> [laughter] >> Yeah, I did. Had to be done.

[01:52:03]>> Was it was it was there wasn't a tick box for a Jedi there. I'll take it.

[01:52:06]>> No, no, it was other other [laughter] and you could specify Jedi. Yet, there were thousands of us.

[01:52:12]Thousands. Cuz the rumor went round um that if enough people uh said that they were Jedi, it would become a recognized religion. That was not true. But just on the off chance, the idea of actually being a Jedi [laughter] >> Well, it's true. In America, it it you can actually make a religion for being a Jedi and it it has to be recognized as a real religion. So, >> oh, I'm sure you could here, but but the idea of, oh, well, if 10,000 people or however many thousand people just put that down on the census, then it's a religion, that's not the case. There would have to be certain things you have meet, whether that's, I don't know, collective worship and whatever else.

[01:52:50]Uh, and I'm sure that must be the case in America. You you couldn't, Tom, I presume you couldn't just go into some office tomorrow and say, "Right, I'm I'm uh registering jumpism as the new religion, could you? Or would you have to have something to show for it?"

[01:53:03]>> Oh, no. You could you can register anything as a religion. There's this absolutely hilarious episode of John Oliver. He's he's from your side of the pond, but he came over to America to do talk show television, and he showed the process of what it takes to actually start a religion. And he did it. He has he has an HBO comedy show. I just I was just going to ask what the process was.

[01:53:22]So yeah, you're answering that right now.

[01:53:24]>> Do you know I I'm sure I've seen that Tom and he he sent off a few forms and >> Yes.

[01:53:30]>> So as simple as that. Is so is there is there not a minimum criteria to >> I think there was there was some minimum criteria I think I think. Didn't he have to have have um uh uh something like uh what do you call a congregation? So when he was doing the talk show uh he said you guys are my congregation so I can tick that box. It was it was really easy. It was really easy.

[01:53:52]>> Well yeah but I mean any of us would also qualify for that because we have a congregation here on YouTube. Like anybody who gets more than like 10 viewers has a congregation and can start their own religion.

[01:54:01]>> Yeah. But that probably rules out Nathan Oakley because I I think most of those are himself. So if you so once I mean what's the benefit if you if you register as a religion in the state that's exempt that's exempt >> now all your income is no longer taxable. So if I if I registered as a uh religion then all of my tax all my income is no longer taxed from YouTube >> it's like it's slightly different in the UK because you actually have to register as a charity. Uh so you have to prove that what you're actually the money that you've actually getting from from donations you you actually using it for the purposes that you actually state it's used for. And you could take an income, but then that income would be taxed, wouldn't it?

[01:54:39]>> Yeah. Uh yeah. Yeah. But >> uh in America it works slightly differently because have you guys heard of Joel Olstein, the super rich millionaire?

[01:54:47]>> I've heard of him. Yeah.

[01:54:48]>> I haven't heard of that.

[01:54:49]>> So you can you can buy yourself an airplane or a jet or a Ferrari with your congregation's donations as a part to spread your religion. If it is in your religion, that that is a good thing.

[01:55:01]like because he's a prosperity gospel which means that being rich is is an inherent part of their religion. So it's actually technically well in some strange sense it is a part of his religion to get more money and buy cool stuff.

[01:55:16]>> I know and it's it's all these uh oh oh I I need a private jet cuz I don't want to fly in in one of those um public ones with all those other I don't want to be in a tube in the sky filled with demons.

[01:55:28]Who was that? That wasn't wasn't Oral Roberts, was it?

[01:55:32]>> Yeah, that was uh I do know who you're talking about.

[01:55:34]>> It's that guy with the de he's got demon eyes, hasn't he?

[01:55:38]He's a really awful looking bloke.

[01:55:40]>> Copeland something.

[01:55:41]>> Ken Kenneth Copelan. That's it. Yeah.

[01:55:43]And many years ago, I did see one of these uh televangelists uh being interviewed and the interviewer actually said, "Look, I notice that you've got lots of jewelry." And he had all these diamond rings on or whatever. And the cheeksty turned around and said, "Well, God wants me to get used to the treasures in heaven." [laughter] >> Yeah, >> man. That's bad. We got Gary Yanger in the house, no less. Good evening, Gary Wenger.

[01:56:12]>> Gary, >> we were all talking about you earlier.

[01:56:14]Too late now, though. You're gonna have to watch the whole stream again.

[01:56:20]We like sar Gary and Gary what we were saying was the fact that uh you as the opposition are welcome in here. You can make your comments. We'll disagree with them as long as there's no copy pasting and I said that that that was the agreement we came to and you have been sticking to it. So good good for you Gary. Thank you. So there you go. We weren't having a go. This is a private jet to facilitate better charity.

[01:56:45][laughter] Oh man.

[01:56:48]>> I think the word they use is that we use the the jet is used to bring the word of God around the country.

[01:56:54]>> Yeah.

[01:56:54]>> No.

[01:56:56]>> Yeah. They they never heard of um I Where are you? You're somewhere in the middle of America, I think, Tom. And we're able to talk all the way across the Do you know I need a jet? I should be doing this with you in person, shouldn't I?

[01:57:08]>> I Yeah. Can I I can start a GoFundMe for a sensible jet [laughter] >> and make it tax deductible. Yeah, definitely.

[01:57:15]>> But didn't that didn't that guy just he didn't actually just have one jet, wasn't he? He >> had two two or three, didn't he?

[01:57:20]>> Two. Yeah. Yeah. Once he got funded for the first one and God God tells me, I need a second jet before my staff and for, you know. Yeah. Oh, God.

[01:57:29]>> Wasn't it then found that although it was for his his churching, uh, his family went on trips and holidays and goodness knows what with it. Yeah.

[01:57:38]>> That's Yeah, I've heard that. Yeah.

[01:57:40]>> Yeah. See, I mean, there are people here in this country, Tom, who fall for te televangelism, but I think it's very much an American thing than than a British. It's nothing like that. I mean, you've got whole TV stations, haven't you? Uh, these people have TV stations.

[01:57:58]What about that? That um Harold, what was his name? Harold. Uh, the guy who said the earth was going to end.

[01:58:07]Can't remember his name.

[01:58:08]>> That's actually a really common thing.

[01:58:09]There's about three dozen of them that are extremely popular here who said that.

[01:58:14]>> Yeah. But he he had he had thousands of people but there was one guy who sold his house and everything to give the money to it and of course it didn't quite end. So Harold Camping, that was it. Harold Camping then came up with another date about 18 months later and it didn't end then either.

[01:58:31]>> Yeah. I think it probably ended for the guy who gave all his money away. It's very sad.

[01:58:36]>> I think they made a documentary about that. About all the people who lost their homes.

[01:58:40]>> Yeah. Despicable. Absolutely despicable.

[01:58:44]And it's not the first time. Well, that was two times, but it's not the first time he'd done it. He he'd made predictions of the end of the world um many times before based on numerology in the Bible.

[01:58:56]I mean that that brings you all into like bring yourself into cult territory, you know, and that that kind of concerns me as well if it's so so easy to set up a religion in the states, you know, you're therefore designated as a religion. So therefore, you get attacked as quickly as that. Um, so it' be quite easy to actually fund the, you know, your false religion to give you all the money and then, you know, eventually bring people to suicide because you want to die. And that's that's happened.

[01:59:21]Jonestown and, you know, and others and stuff like that. So yeah.

[01:59:27]Then you had those ones who committed suicide. Some UFO cult they felt was coming. Was it behind Hal's comet was coming to >> Yeah. was on what was it called again?

[01:59:36]Uh I forgot the name.

[01:59:38]>> Can't even remember the name. The cult.

[01:59:40]>> Heaven's one. Yeah, that's the one.

[01:59:42]Yeah. Heaven's gate.

[01:59:43]>> It's very sad.

[01:59:45]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[01:59:47]>> And then Jonestown was went into another whole level all all together. That's just that was crazy. Absolutely crazy.

[01:59:53]>> Was that the ones who Kool-Aid or whatever.

[01:59:56]>> Yeah.

[01:59:56]>> Yeah, that was it. Yeah, that's where the tomb drinking the Kool-Aid comes from.

[02:00:00]>> Yeah.

[02:00:00]>> Yeah, that's right. Yep.

[02:00:02]>> Yeah.

[02:00:02]>> What was the one in Texas? Well, wake.

[02:00:06]>> Yeah. Brian Vidian. David Kesh. Yeah.

[02:00:10]>> Yes. Kur Kesh or Kuresh.

[02:00:13]>> Caresh. I think you pronounce it.

[02:00:14]>> Caresh.

[02:00:15]>> Waco. Gary. Either way. Yeah.

[02:00:17]>> Yeah. That was a complete disaster.

[02:00:19]Yeah.

[02:00:21]>> It's scary. I mean, they sort of become um isolationist, don't they? Like survivalists and uh weapon up.

[02:00:31]>> So, I guess that's something that can happen more easily in the States than here, Tom. That's not being pro or anti-gun, but they're physically next to no guns in this country comparatively speaking. So, >> there's um there's a YouTuber actually, she appears on the Shills um time um Ad Astra I think you call it.

[02:00:48]um they've had she seems to have a lot of knowledge about um cults. Um and I think she's um psychologist or sociologist um and it's something that she is kind of favorable in. I don't know how much she's actually done on the channel. I haven't really had a chance to look at it, but um have a look on the shows. Sometimes they they talk about cults from time to time. Um I think on one of their shows, what's it called? I think it's four or something.

[02:01:12]I don't know. Cult.

[02:01:14]>> Oh yes, I knew the one.

[02:01:16]>> Yeah. Uncalled for.

[02:01:17]>> Uncalled for. That's it. Yeah, they were talking about cults um the other week.

[02:01:20]So, yeah, if you get a chance, have a look at um Ad Astro, look her up as well. And I think that there's probably some videos about cults. She seems to know stuff about that. It's quite interesting, you know, and you know, what makes a cult? And actually, you know, um one of the questions that was actually asked during the show was is flat earth a cult? Um and she well she going by the criteria they actually said, I can't exactly know what the what the criteria they actually use it. Um, but she says, "No, they're not really a cult, but they have very cult >> behaviors."

[02:01:50]>> Behaviors. Yeah. So, it's cultlike, but not actually a cult.

[02:01:54]>> Because if you to a certain extent, they're actually most, you know, the most they're free to leave. They can >> Yeah. You're saying that, Matt. You're saying that, but that's one of their cultike behaviors. Look at people like um seek truth, speak truth, and ranty.

[02:02:09]There's disconnection. Obviously, if you leave a group that you had friends in, you're not going to be maintaining the same level of friendship. But they didn't just drop the friendship. They turned on them.

[02:02:21]>> Yeah.

[02:02:22]>> They're traitors. Do you know what I mean?

[02:02:24]>> But they still, you know, but yeah.

[02:02:26]Yeah. Absolutely. I totally agree because I mean you look at particularly Ranty I remember well shortly day couple of days after he um he decided he was not a flat earth to I think it was one of the flat earth streams. I don't know it was been Oakley because they don't like each other. um somebody else's and there some guy came on and I don't know who it was but he would scream at him and call him a you know scum the rest of it and it this what hold on hold on a second you know this is this is all about what what you actually believe there's no loyalty and Ranty was always of opinion that you know fine if if you think something differently to me then persuade me I'm just trying to find the truth you know and eventually he found the truth he found what was real >> yeah and he's got a lot of respect for that >> yeah so that that those people that were screaming out to that particular guy was showing sort of cultish behavior, but it's still at the end of the day, you know, ranting and all those people still have a choice. They can leave. They're not they're not going to be killed or they've not given away all their money and they're not forced to give away their money. So, I think, you know, probably isn't a cult, but very cult.

[02:03:28]>> Someone said someone in here said, "Oh, biggest biggest doggger said uh cults cult like cultlike, but in reality just stupid."

[02:03:37]>> Yes. [laughter] Yeah. stupid like Yeah.

[02:03:41][cough] >> Python reference.

[02:03:44]>> Yeah.

[02:03:45]>> I for Brian.

[02:03:46]>> Yeah. Biggest dickas.

[02:03:48]>> He has a wife, you know. Do you want to know what she's called?

[02:03:51]>> Incontinentia. Incontinentia pockets.

[02:03:54][laughter] >> And the channel's gone.

[02:04:00][laughter] Oh, listen to >> it's been it's been cracking having you on here. I've really enjoyed it. Um, I I do enjoy your stuff. Um, sorry, can a mod because I haven't got the the link to Hank, but can a mod put a link to uh T Jump's channel again in the the chat and there is a link a hot link to T Jump in the description of course. Um, so if you haven't, please check out Tom's channel. um very very I I said to Tom earlier um when he's debating he he appears so relaxed and laidback and mild and he absolutely slaughters them and half the time they don't even realize how they've been slaughtered cracking stuff. So I thoroughly recommend it.

[02:04:48]>> Oh, thanks. Appreciate it. It was a pleasure coming on. Really appreciate the uh invite and the suggestion from my viewer.

[02:04:54]>> Yeah, that was a good one, wasn't it?

[02:04:56]>> Yeah, for sure. really enjoy talking with you, especially about the Monty Python stuff and the and the jokes.

[02:05:01][laughter] >> Well, listen, Tom. Um you're always welcome. If ever I'm streaming, you happen to have some time. Uh if you just fancy dropping in, uh just hop into the live waiting room and then just like I did with uh Welshy and Matt here. Um at the appropriate time, I drag people in and you always be welcome, sir.

[02:05:20]>> Cool. Sounds great. I will do that.

[02:05:22]Thanks again for having me on. Really appreciate it. Thanks, guys, for showing up. Thanks for Matt and Captain Welshy.

[02:05:27]Enjoyed talking with you guys as well.

[02:05:29]And I'm going to go eat some dinner. So I will see you guys later.

[02:05:31]>> Can I just just just ask though before you go, Tom, um have you got any anything any new content uh upcoming that you want to shill out?

[02:05:40]>> Um I think I have some stuff planned.

[02:05:42]I'm probably going to copy the debate I had on Fight the Flat Earth over to my channel pretty soon.

[02:05:47]>> But I know I I set up stuff on my um calendar and I don't look at it until the day I actually have to do it.

[02:05:54]Yeah, I have a debate on modern day debate Saturday probably. I think it's against a flat-earther actually and then I have a conversation with Professor Richard Brown from Lordia, New York on Monday. Those are the two things I have planned right now.

[02:06:07]>> Cool. Cool. Well, excellent. Once again, thank you very much, sir.

[02:06:14]>> Yes. See you later. And what what I'll do uh Tom and with uh Captain Welshy and Matt, I'll pop you into the live waiting room. You're welcome to stay and chat.

[02:06:22]And anyone else who wants to hop in and chat with anyone who's still there is welcome to and I'll wrap the stream.

[02:06:28]Okay. So, uh, Captain Welshy, Matt, Tom, sir, thank you very much.

[02:06:33]>> Thank you. Thanks for having me on.

[02:06:34]>> Thank you. And I'm popping them all into the waiting room. Um, what a great stream. I really, really enjoyed that talking to Tom. Uh, first time, excuse me, [clears throat] uh, first time I've actually spoke to Tom. As I said, I've seen I have seen a lot of his stuff uh but only uh had watched it on Modern Day debates. Um and he's got a whole load more on his channel. So I shall be checking that out. I I subscribed tonight. Uh that was very lax of me not to have been subscribed before. I am now. Um what I will say is I have just started uh an totally unrelated channel.

[02:07:11]Uh please have a look at it. See what you think. It's called God of Small Worlds.

[02:07:17]uh setting up ecospheres and then checking up on them a few months later.

[02:07:20]The first one has actually been run, well, the first two have been running for nearly three months, but I'm only just releasing the first video and I'm creating yet another ecosphere yet you might find it interesting. It may not be your cup of tea. Uh if you know of any uh really short people, also known as children, they might find it interesting because there's all sorts of critters and that um living in these worlds.

[02:07:42]Anyway, please sound it out. Oh, I just see there's a super chat. I've got to read that, haven't I? Got to read that.

[02:07:47]Can't let that go. That was uh would have been rather sad. Let's just refresh.

[02:07:55]Got to get this fixed sometime. It's been like this for months. It's from Tim Tully for $10 US. Uh politics is a compound word. Poly from the Greek meaning many and ticks blood sucking insects.

[02:08:09][laughter] Excellent, Tim. Really appreciate that.

[02:08:12]Nice one. So, what I'll do is I'll say thank you very much. I'm hope to have a video out in the next couple days. I've actually found it really hard to work with the heat because when the air con's on, it's screaming with the with the doors or windows open. Instead, uh it's still too hot and I don't do heat, but uh I am working on the video right now.

[02:08:32]Hope to see you all soon. Until next time, gets himself prepped. Stay sensible.

[02:08:43]>> [music] >> Mr. Mr. [singing] Br and get [music] me the best if you please. [singing] Here are some flowers. Let me display [music] them. Yay. [singing] [music] You are a man. Every subscriber is a faithful fan [singing] in your lo and your [music] cheese.

[02:09:18]Mr. Sensible, [singing] help us out, please.

[02:09:23]Mr. Sensible, [music] Mr. Sensible, I needed proof. I needed proof. [music and singing] So, I jump off the roof. Jump off the roof.

[02:09:35]Let me go fur.

[02:09:38]Why [music and singing] was I ever such a dumb flat earth?

[02:09:45]I'm such a clown. Such [music] a clown.

[02:09:48]I am the town. [singing] The town your loic and your cheese.

[02:09:56][music] Miss the sense of love. Help me out please.

[02:10:01]Miss [music] the sensible [singing] sensible. Bring me a sphere. Bring me a sphere to which the waters of the oceans of [singing and music] oceans of explanations.

[02:10:14]Let me be kind [music and singing] of stand [music and singing] [singing] [music] your and your cheers.

[02:10:35]Mr. Sus.

[02:10:37]>> [music and singing] [groaning]