"The Bible Is a Difficult Book"— Christian Says During an Islam Christian Debate (Shocking Ending!)

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[00:00:00]And in the meanwhile, if we look at the real world, if we look at the real world, there are thousands of women, millions of women all around the world who as a result of religion are being denied the right to vote, being denied the right to drive, being denied the right to leave the house and get the job that they want. Young girls having their clitorises removed unsafely, unsanitary conditions. Women being killed, women having their lives ruined, and we're sat here bickering about what verses mean.

[00:00:25]The reality is religion, just look at the real world. Religion is incredibly damaging >> [applause] >> I'll go so far with you, Kate, but not the whole way. Religion is not doing that to women, men are.

[00:00:38]>> [applause] >> Yes, they are. Yes, they are, but Let's Well, whether you think it's fictional or not, and I don't, let's look at it in the broadest context. It's men using religion to oppress women.

[00:00:52]This has been happening throughout human history, but we have to put it in that context.

[00:00:56]>> think the lady needs to understand that it's not the fault of the religion. As the gentleman said, it's the fault of the those interpreting the religion. So, a clear distinction needs to be made, and I think you really need to understand that.

[00:01:07]>> So, it's the culture, not the religion.

[00:01:08]Yes, gentleman about that. Good morning.

[00:01:10]You You have to look at Islam now. Who was the first person who accept Islam was a woman.

[00:01:15]>> That's what I was going to say. Khadija, peace be upon her. She was the first woman. One of the biggest scholars of Islam was again a woman.

[00:01:21]>> Catholicism, the greatest woman in creation is Mary. And also, we did a lot of writing about Mary.

[00:01:26]>> is Mary. is is is is Mary.

[00:01:29]I was going to Hang on. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[00:01:32]I was going to talk about Islam now, but we just had this the greatest woman in creation was Mary, and you've given us a little diversion. What do you mean?

[00:01:38]Well, um if you think of human beings, what are we aiming for? What is a human person? What is the greatest thing a human person can be? Mary.

[00:01:46]>> a virgin and a mother? The greatest thing a human person can be, um that's a big question to ask, but it's um the Catholic Church would say in profound communion with God, and therefore in profound communion with each other, and in profound communion with creation, and releasing and living all their talents for love. Now, the Virgin Mary is the greatest woman in creation because she listened to God, received her >> She was pious. Um she was obedient totally to receiving the gift that she was given. And when we respond to the giftedness that God gives us, we grow as people. So, it is about human flourishing. And when you were mentioning, can I just say one thing?

[00:02:24]There's a very It's about a woman being obedient to a male God and being obedient to her male God.

[00:02:31]Okay, Sarah, you finished. Sarah, finish. You did some nice cutting and pasting before, and I wanted to add to your quote about You said women must submit to their husbands, but straight after it said, "Husbands must submit to their wives in Christ." So, there's a bigger picture.

[00:02:44]And No, that's not at all what it means.

[00:02:46]Why do I know that? Because when um a a husband submits to his wife, he has to behave as it says in the Bible as Christ behaved towards the church, laying down his life. There's a beautiful word to describe what Christ did, and it's the inspiration for all men, and it is kenosis, which means complete self-emptying. I'd like to see some more of that. I live with three priests, actually. So, I've had a very interesting experience, a personal experience >> [laughter] >> and maybe I'll get a contract for it.

[00:03:16]I'd quite enjoy it, but the fact is I live with men who consciously do try to purify their hearts, their minds, their thoughts, and I feel extremely celebrated as a woman when I'm living with men who are undergoing a spiritual path, and I do not feel oppressed or pushed down. I feel celebrated and listened to.

[00:03:33]>> is the ultimate in human creation. Um she is the ultimate in human creation because she's totally open to God. Uh okay. Well, that's That's your vicar.

[00:03:41]We've not having Vicky. Uh well, I think I would say um just to step back one point. Uh when you talk about kenosis, I mean, I totally agree. It's a great point, but it feels like when we interpret the Bible, we have to actually go so deep in explaining it. And on a on a superficial um surface reading of the Bible, I can understand why people think it's patriarchal. And yet, I love the Bible. My theology You should aspire to be like Mary. Um I do, but but I think and when I get to heaven, I will be saying to God, "Why did you not explain things more clearly?" I And I think it's important that we can be honest about the Bible. I respect it. I honor it, but I think it's a very difficult book, and I think um some folks to actually go, "No, no, it's black and white. It's very clear. You know, it's not anti-women."

[00:04:18]It looks anti-women. Let's be honest.

[00:04:20]But if you look at it deeper, if you put it in context You're making a really important point there because um before Christianity came along, it was in a particular society. The Greeks were still uh struggling to work out whether women were human. But Mary is the Mary is the word. And Christianity said you're equal. You're dignified. Look what she's great, but if if you don't want to be >> It's really great, Nicky. It's really great. It's really great. It's really great. It's really great. It's really great. It's really great. It's really great.

[00:04:46]But listen, I said if a woman does not If a woman does not want to submit in that way and be pure and be virginal, is she Is she a failure if she doesn't want to be like Mary? Oh, absolutely not. And you made a beautiful point about the Song of Songs being beautifully erotic.

[00:05:00]All I will say, there's one beautiful thing I've got to say is that >> You've said so many beautiful things so far. Thank you, Nicky. I love you. The beautiful thing about the Song of Songs is that reality is revealed as marital, spousal. Whether you're single, married, you are living a spousal reality. It's a very deep thing, your sexuality. What is your sexuality? What is your femininity?

[00:05:20]What is your masculinity? It's spousal and it's deep, and it's worth thinking about, isn't What is Christina very quickly before now? We We with you in just one thing. In the Christian tradition, I mean, uh that sounds very good, but in the Christian tradition, um as Cole has said, it's it's men in power using the religious institution to determine what's normal and what goes. And throughout our Christian tradition, very sadly, the cutting-edge theologians of their day saw women's sexuality not as something beautiful and to be celebrated. They were terrified of it.

[00:05:54]>> climate of those years. They were terrified, and they and they were terrified. I mean, to totally It's the legacy of evil. women a devil's gateway, and a Women were sewers built over I mean, temples built over sewers. And there was a a narcissistic French abbot who who told his novice monks, "When you embrace a woman, you're embracing a sack of manure." They They are indeed. These were And in the same breath, they taught other things about the Christian faith which were actually have stood the test of time. No, but what I'm saying is that for too long in our Christian tradition run by men, they said that to be a good Christian man, you had to divorce your sex self from your sexuality. And what's the one thing they couldn't control? Sexual desire and women. So, they Exactly. tried to separate it out, and women were scary.

[00:06:45]Okay, very quickly. Kate was bursting to come in there. This is a really important [laughter] point. We've talked about Mary the virgin. We've talked about And the the truth is that major religions around the world, one of their main focuses continually seems to be to control women's bodies, access to contraception, access to abortion, all this kind of stuff. And the reality is that when you take away from women the right to control their own fertility by putting this virgin ideology on them and all these kind of religious laws, you take away their opportunity to escape poverty, to get an education, to have control over their own lives. That single cause led by major religions is the one main thing that is preventing women from leading better lives and in developing and escaping poverty and all those things. There's probably only one biblical book that really celebrates what it is to be a woman and and a sexual being as a woman, and that's the Song of Songs or the Song of Solomon.

[00:07:32]But even in that text, it's very much written from the point of view of a male writer and the voyeur's gaze looking at this sexy woman.

[00:07:40]>> erotic, that, isn't Mm, very erotic.

[00:07:42]Yeah. But has some of it, when I say cutting and pasting, has some of it been interpreted within patriarchal societies to be even more uh you know, male-orientated?

[00:07:53]Some people argue that we've got conflicting views of what women are supposed to be doing in Christianity.

[00:07:57]So, for example, some people argue that according to the Gospels, Jesus was quite pro-women. He had women followers.

[00:08:04]Some of the earliest church leaders um were quite wealthy women. On the other hand, in some of the Pauline writings, some of the letters that St. Paul was supposed to have written, he's um he's not that keen on women.

[00:08:15]Women shouldn't be talking in church.

[00:08:16]Women should cover their heads. Women are secondary to their husbands. Yes, I do not permit a permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man. She must be silent.

[00:08:25]Well, you've broken that already, haven't you?

[00:08:27]I don't think he'd like me much, anyway.

[00:08:28]>> [laughter] >> Wives, submit to your husband. Um And all that stuff in Christina Reese, all that stuff in Leviticus about women being unclean. Do you just skip those bits?

[00:08:40]No, not at all. Um that And that's the tough thing. We can't skip bits, but we have to understand um when they were written and who they were written for.

[00:08:49]And as Francesca has said, it was mainly written by men for men. And so, what we have to do is use the understanding we have now because since everything in the Bible, both the Old Testament and the New Testament, was written, we've had um the Enlightenment. We now understand reproduction in a different way. So, the taboo laws in Leviticus um talking about how women had to be separate, and they were literally seen as unclean when they were menstruating and after giving birth, even though the vestiges of that carry on >> in this is your religion? Do you not find that stuff incredibly offensive?

[00:09:25]>> Um I I No, those are the texts. That's the understanding that people had then, and we don't know it all now. But Nicky, what we do know now, we know enough to make the changes that we can because Paul, he wrote as a good Jewish man of in 1st century Palestine. If Paul were alive and here today, he he was absolutely passionate about helping people to understand who Jesus was, who he saw as the Christ, the Messiah.

[00:09:52]>> So, he'd be different now. If Paul were here in Britain today, he would be scolding the Church of England, my beloved church that still discriminates against women. And he would say, "Our mission, we are in a culture. We don't see women the way we used to see women anymore as property of their fathers or their husbands. Go out. Allow women to be bishops and in in every way."

[00:10:16]>> all that stuff now?

[00:10:17]I have to confess, I don't think he probably would. I think he was pretty much that there was no sense of of two genders in the ancient world. Um women were often seen, particularly in these ancient Jewish and ancient Christian societies, as a deviant form of a man.

[00:10:31]Um and I think Paul would find that very hard to let go of.

[00:10:34]>> Ah, but Paul, there were two sides of Paul. Paul the locked into his understanding and he was doing the best he could with his understanding and the transcendent Paul who could write on how we're all members of the same body and anyone who is baptized into Christ become places their faith are absolutely all the Okay. old old barriers are broken down.

[00:10:58]>> going to have it all their own [laughter] way. Don't worry.

[00:11:01]Liz, I want you to tell us about Eve.

[00:11:04]About Eve? So, Eve, whether you take it as literal or sort of figurative, um Eve was the first woman um and basically she was created to be Adam's helper. And it's very important that she was created and it says very clearly in Genesis um that both male and female created in the image of God.

[00:11:26]>> 2 or Genesis 1? Which one? Uh it says two, I think.

[00:11:28]>> Genesis 1. Is it one? One. One.

[00:11:30]>> Okay, these people know better than I.

[00:11:31]>> One that created together, Genesis 2 that created as a helper.

[00:11:36]One is equal and one is a helper. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, but a helper is equal.

[00:11:39]And this is where the interesting debate comes in. But anyway, because um Eve, whether it's a literal or figurative, was taken from Adam's rib, which is from the side, not from the head, not from the feet, so not to rule and not to be oppressed, but from the side to be an equal partner in life. Um and so Eve was Adam's partner, but God also did say that um Adam was first and Eve was to be his helper and then in the fall, which is the when sin entered the world, um that was turned on its head. So, it was meant to be God ruling people and people ruling creation. And in the fall, you have the serpent um tempting and leading Eve, the woman, astray and then her leading her husband, Adam.

[00:12:23]>> Wasn't fault. Adam should have said no.

[00:12:26]He could have said no. He chose to follow Eve and in so doing, he said, "I'm better than I know better than God." Unfortunately, similar to what you're saying, Is it all women can't be leaders? Um yeah, it goes back to So, that passage you read out from 1 Timothy, if you look at carries on, it actually refers back to Adam and Eve.

[00:12:44]>> And if they if they do if they do become leaders in the church or elsewhere, you think there are potential problems?

[00:12:49]There are potential problems, yeah. I mean, particularly on on the issue of bishops um that you mentioned earlier. So, um the Church of England is doing its absolute best to be inclusive, to avoid division. And that's that's a fantastic thing cuz we are called to unity and this is a secondary issue. I'm not saying that people who disagree are not Christians, but >> But um as a layperson, I can make the decision. I can choose to go to a church with a male vicar or a female vicar and I have that freedom of choice. If you are a male vicar who has um doctrinal reasons why you're not happy to have a woman in leadership over you because you believe and hold firm to those teachings, that is where the problem's coming in and it needs to be a needs to be a compromise.

[00:13:30]>> All right. So, that was a very beautiful discussion in which, you know, they've been asked, "Are women being unfair when it comes to religion?"

[00:13:39]Be it Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

[00:13:43]And this section is for Christianity. I will upload another video that talks more about Judaism when it comes to women, how they treat women, and Islam, how they treat women.

[00:13:55]So, this particular video is about, you know, Christianity and I love the fact that they were not being biased. They were able to speak their mind and let them understand that there are some things in the Bible that are not right.

[00:14:08]You [snorts] know, even though some people will say, "Oh, the Bible is this." There are some things that the Bible is totally, you know, not really in support of women.

[00:14:18]Get it? And I love how the other lady spoke in the beginning saying that, you know, >> [snorts] >> it's sometimes the way we interpret the scripture is the what affects the society. Yeah, even though the the scripture says this, as a human, how do you treat women? And is is how we treat ourselves the that that matters. It's not about the scripture. We make it look as if it's the religion that is that is, you know, that is the problem. Whereas, it's we the people that are the problem.

[00:14:49]Even though the scripture says this, as human, what do you think is right for us? Why do Why do I Why are women treated that way in the society? When it comes to voting, when it comes to making decisions, when it comes to marriage, when it comes to so many things, women are being restricted. And the man What the man said was really beautiful. He said the problem and the issue is the men. It's the men that are always against the women. If the men can give women the privilege to make decision or to to do something, you know, women will not be treated badly. You know, the society will be better when it comes to women.

[00:15:31]So, [snorts] now these women are So, women are standing their ground. They are trying their best to, you know, make decision. They don't want to care what people say. They do their best to do what they feel is right for them, but majority of women are being treated unfairly even in Christianity, even in the Bible. One lady said the only place women was that women was praised more was in Song of Solomon. And Song of Solomon is so many words spoken there are too It's not religious for one to take.

[00:16:03]It's too much of sexuality stuff. But she felt that that was that was the scripture that women were being praised the more. So, I [snorts] love the way they came to, you know, they spoke about, you know, women. Example is Eve uh Eve. They were like, "Okay, the women are the problem because if women can influence a man to make a decision and make the scripture really wrongly like the way E uh Eve, you know, [clears throat] pushed Adam to do that thing, that's why women are the problem." Well, let me know your point of view, guys, in the comment box. Thanks so much for watching. I'll see you in the next one.

[00:16:38]Bye.