The Hugging Face breach exposes the fragility of artificial guardrails and the inevitable collapse of proprietary moats in an era of model proliferation. This incident serves as a stark reminder that the democratization of AI power is rapidly outstripping our capacity to secure the infrastructure it inhabits.
Install our extension to search inside any video instantly.
The Beans are in the Mail - Can American AI Compete When China Gives It Away?
Added:It's time for intelligent machines.
Paris Smart knows here. Jeff Jarvis, a great guest, Nate B. Jones will be joining us to talk about AI. He's one of the best on YouTube to to [music] break through the hype. We're going to ask him about this amazing story. Hugging face says open AI's unannounced AI broke in and hacked it autonomously. That's coming up next on Intelligent Machines. [music] Starting to get weird. Podcasts [music] you love >> from people you trust.
>> This is Twit.
[music] >> This is Intelligent Machines with Jeff Jarvis and Paris Martino. Episode 880, recorded Wednesday, July 22nd, 2026. The beans are in the mail. [music] It's time for Intelligent Machines, the show where we cover the latest in AI, robotics, and all those smart doohickeys like my hyper cube behind me here uh surrounding us day and night. Uh I am so pleased to see Paris Martino still here. She hasn't she hasn't given up on me yet. Investigative journalist at Consumer Reports and >> I'll never give up.
>> The cycle of Sephora [laughter] has not stolen you away from us.
>> It's true. It's trying though.
>> Yeah, it's very trying. Uh and also here uh of course the wonderful Emmeritus professor of journalistic innovation at the Craig Newark Graduate School of Journalism City University [music] >> and uh author of many books including Hot Type which emerges from the press in mere weeks.
Yes.
>> At jeffjarvis.com.
Uh we are we have lots of news to talk about but I think we have the right person to talk about it with. Normally I I was telling Nate this, our guests, we interviewed them and their interests and you know, today we're going to talk about the the AI news. He is one of the foremost uh uh commentators on AI. I watch his YouTube channel daily. Nate B.
Jones is >> I want to get credit here. I want to Where did you learn about Nate B. Jones?
>> I learned about it from the wonderful Jeff Jarvis said one day, did you?
>> You got to watch this guy.
>> You got to watch this guy and the rest is history. Mhm.
>> Uh Nate, it's interesting. Nate's uh story is kind of interesting. You grew up overseas. Where was that?
>> Uh I grew up in Indonesia and the Philippines. Uh I remember the first time I saw television. So the journey to AI has been very much a big leap for me.
>> Wow. Uh you were a head of product for Amazon Prime Video.
>> Uhhuh.
>> So you know, in fact, one of the things I really like about you is your your presentation is excellent. you know how to talk to the camera. You know how to deliver. Uh and uh maybe that's because you worked at Prime Video. I don't know.
But um unlike a lot of YouTubers, you're really good with the with the camera.
>> I think I just have fun like talking.
It's funny. I started talking about AI in like around the co era and I was like, well, what do I do? I have a little bit of spare bandwidth. I should start talking about, you know, I did machine learning at Amazon. Uh and there was these LLMs. I was just going to talk and video just felt so natural for me.
It felt like I was just talking and I could connect with a friend and I think that's where sort of that that maybe that dynamic vibe comes from. It just it feels like a personal medium for me.
>> Jeff discovered you on Tik Tok and those Tik Tok shorts are great but the longer form YouTube uh videos are a mustwatch and then there's also a Substack >> which can people can follow and I've been talking about you for a while. I adopted Open Brain uh for as my memory.
Yeah. Uh I use Hermes as my agent, but I started using Open Brain with Claude uh code and uh later modified it to uh work with Hermes.
>> Um he is uh really great on talking not not in hype terms. That's one of the problems I have with the YouTubers.
There's a lot of hype and you always wonder, you know, who's who's stroking who. Nate's great. He just tells it like it is.
>> Nate does it. He makes it about that.
>> Yeah. And if you want to just kind of get a sense of what all this means, great commentator to go to. So that's why [laughter] >> I'm thrilled we have you today cuz man, what a week this has been. [laughter] >> It's really good timing, right? We didn't know this when we scheduled it, but we we have this on the calendar and it feels perfect given everything that's been going on.
>> So I got to start with a hugging face uh breach because this developed in a way that was kind of unpredictable. Hugging Face said, "We we were breached."
And then they said, "Wait a minute.
[laughter] Looks like we wait a minute.
What what's going on here? We were breached by an autonomous AI agent system."
>> Yep.
>> And then they said, "And we couldn't fix it because the AIs we were using, Fable and Saul, had too many guard rails and wouldn't let us do cyber security." So, we went to a Chinese model, GLM 5.2, to get it fixed. And then they said, "And it was Open AI that did it." And then Open AI said, "Yeah, it was >> I didn't confess, they bragged." Oh, look what we did.
>> That's the first question I'm so glad I I can ask you, Nate, cuz how much of this is marketing and hype from OpenAI?
So I I I I think that the reason we even ask that question is because of the whole storyline with mythos and fable a few months ago where anthropic trops out mythos and says it's sort of scare marketing, right? This is the scariest thing since sliced bread. This is like an atomic weapon. We're all terrified.
Uh the treasury secretary calls in a bunch of bankers and says this is legit.
It's really scary. And I I saw that narrative unfolding and everyone was like anthropic has got to be marketing.
But look at how that unfolded for them.
You know, I I talked to some of the guys at Anthropic. By and large, the folks I talked to are not super happy about that whole how that whole thing went down. Uh because effectively, they lost control of their own launch. Uh Fable got rolled back for an unpredictable amount of time. They then had to put Fable back out. And by the time they put Fable back out, there were other Frontier models.
So they lost their sweet spot where they were the best most amazingest model for a few weeks which is what you really want. And so that may have been that may have been a goal of theirs to emphasize their capability in a way that was sort of a hey look what I can do. It didn't go well for them. And I think that when I look at open AI in this situation I don't think it goes well for them if they p keep pursuing that path. Right?
If if they make this a deliberate thing I don't think it's a good approach. uh what I know and what I've seen so far, it looks like they are trying to put the best face they can on something that wasn't supposed to happen. So they have two models. One is Saul that's public, but there is also a model they haven't released. By the way, that model related story solved with a counter example, a famous mathematical problem, the Jacobian problem just right before >> Yep. [laughter] during the World Cup final apparent.
>> Yeah. And then the same unreleased model apparently broke I don't even understand what this means. Broke it didn't break out, but it did break in to hugging face, >> right? So, >> well, it broke out of the sandbox. The the test environment did break out.
>> It was trying to solve it exploit gym, right?
>> Not the first instance of this. Didn't another open AI model break out of a sandbox to order a sandwich?
>> No. You're thinking of an This is And that was a marketing ploy. That was okay. Go. I'll let I'll let Nate tell that story.
>> There were >> that was definitely marketing on that one.
>> Two incidents in the last call it 72ish hours with an as yet unreleased model from OpenAI that caused OpenAI to internally pause deployment. Uh one of the one ones is the one we're talking about with Hugging Face. There was another one that was limited to internal issues where the model got out of its sandbox environment internally and there were some issues inside OpenAI that they're not talking about a whole lot.
Uh but it was concerning enough that they released a statement on it and they decided to pause uh internal deployment.
Uh and I'm not sure what all that means because they have thousands of employees. So who knows exactly what that means.
>> Aren't you talking about a much earlier episode with the sandwich?
>> The sandwich was an anthropic mythos completely. Not talking about the sandwich, >> but the reason the sandwich is is in Paris's mind is because Anthropic said, "Oh, it escaped the sandbox." But it was it was told to escape the sandbox in that case.
>> In this case, it wasn't told to escape the sand.
>> And that's an important distinction.
>> Kind of an important point, right? In this case, it was told to get an answer to a test and the model figured out, hey, the easiest path to do this is to just go hack into Hugging Face and get the test results. is basically like going to cheat on the paper and saying I I can break the lock on the teacher's desk and I can get the answers out.
That's what it >> and it wasn't told not to. There was no guard rail. So why not, right?
>> Didn't know it didn't know that the sandbox was was was limited. Was that is that fair to say?
>> It knew enough to have to work around it, right? Like it was aware of its environmental edges. It had to work its way out, but it was not told explicitly not to do it as far as we know. It did what Mythos was rugpulled for. It chained together multiple attack vectors. Once it figured out that the answers, the data sets and the solutions for exploit Jim were stored on hugging face. It chained together attacks using stolen credentials. This is from OpenAI's own story. And zeroday vulnerabilities to find a remote code execution path on the servers.
And then it broke in.
>> Oh, and you got the >> nasty model. You e you.
>> But it did what it was to it did in one way you could say, well, it did what it was told to do. It got the >> Hey, you told me to make paper clips. I made paper clips.
>> It's sort of that problem set, I think.
And that's something someone pointed out on X. They were like, when this model broke containment, it's not the sort of doomsday scenario where the model autonomously picks a target that's outside the original goal and goes and does something like like that, right?
Oh, I'm going to pick a nuclear power plant. I'm going to go target that. No, no, no. It's pursuing its goal. It just needs to get these test answers. It just happens to think the appropriate way to do that is to break into hugging face.
>> Uh, wow.
Um, okay. So, it's not It wasn't OpenAI.
It's not like Anthropic Sandwich Story.
It's not really about marketing. It's really an unex it's an unexpected behavior.
>> Well, it's not entirely unexpected.
OpenAI has said in a said in a different blog post that it posted on Monday that it had witnessed powerful AI models trying to break out of sandboxes when they're instructed to run for a long period of time on their own. So it's not unexpected behavior. It is a little surprising that you'd have a test like this and given that historical information not include a constraint that says don't break out of your sandbox please.
>> Oh, they were doing that part on purpose. So part of what they were trying to do is simulate a relatively unguardile model capability set to see what would happen and sort of understand the risk envelope and they were betting that their internal systems around the model were strong enough to contain it and they were wrong.
[laughter] So it's a commentary on on uh guard rails in two ways, right? That that openai didn't anticipate all the guardrails it needed. A and then b when hugging phase tried to use uh models in defense, the defensive guard rails that were in place stopped them. So guardrails didn't work in two radically different ways. Nope.
>> That's and that's important to call out is that both of them I think are worth talking about because we can draw different lessons from each, right? Like the internal one I think it's a lesson in the complexity that these models are generating across vectors and they're in a sense at a scale that is unanticipatable even by people who spend their entire lives obsessing over these models. No one is more qualified than a bunch of people at a frontier lab to put a system in place that enables them to safely test a risk envelope. But that still didn't work. And that speaks to me of the scaling laws being intact, of the model getting more and more capable, and of us humans frankly needing some autopilot help to manage these models.
And I think that's that's one of my big takeaways. And I think on the other side, it's a story about unintended second order effects. Everyone hears the idea that you should put guard rails around says that's a good thing. And then 2 a.m. rolls around or whenever this attack took place rolls around and someone's like, I need to have Fable on this to analyze all of these events so I can see what's going on. And Fable's like, no, no, no. I was guardrail. I can't help you. Nothing I can do here.
And now you can't use a frontier model for cyber defense.
>> Couldn't Open AAI get Saul to do it.
>> Couldn't Open AI get it was hugging face.
>> It was hugging face that needed it. No, hugs tried an open AI model and it got the same issue.
>> Saul wouldn't do it either.
>> Yeah.
>> So, uh they turned to and this is really the second half of the story, a Chinese model which had no guard rails to do >> effectively none. Yeah. That was more than happy to be helpful >> and did it right.
>> And did it and was actually saved them days working through the event log. It was something like 17,000 adversarial events or something.
>> I Oh, so that's how they used they used GLM52. That's how they used it. They said, "Here's the events. go through these and pinpoint the >> breaking figure out what's going on.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Very easy.
>> Is it is it true? So Leo and and Paris know more about these details than I do.
So I'm the I'm the dumb one here. Um is it is it true that if you had an open weight model that you're running locally that guard rails are irrelevant because whatever guardrail is there you can then take down which is of course the fear of the open source enemies. But but does that does does having open weights make a difference in this equation? Not just that it's um Chinese and didn't have the guardrails.
>> I not I I I think you're sort of conflating two different things, right?
Like the frontier models from open aanthropic are not open weights, >> right?
>> And if they were open weights, you could potentially modify those weights with a fine-tune in a way that would enable you to change the behavior of the model.
>> Okay. Well, plus the classifiers are external to the model, right? So the things that they're using to make mythos into fable >> run kind of after as it as the tokens are going out >> handicap that you give the model, >> right, >> to dumb it down a little bit in certain ways.
>> So if you could run the model locally, you you would just not turn on. You wouldn't have >> I will say these frontier models do not run on a laptop. Like my laptop is not running.
>> Well, that's the big story, right? Uh in fact, that's why we're we're going to talk about Kimmy, too. was hugging hugging face probably does have the resources to run it locally. They >> did and they said they were running GLN 5.2 locally. They were >> and that is a fairly hefty sized model.
>> No kidding. Yeah, it's 2 4 trillion parameters I billion. No, trillion.
>> It's not a just stick it on a Mac Mini and forget about it model, right?
>> Yeah. I have >> the heaviest hardware you have to run things, Nate.
>> You have a Spark, don't you?
>> I Yeah, I have a Spark. Uh like my whole team is like very into AI and so we have like a Spark, we have a bunch of Mac minis. Um we are not at the point yet where we have like a full Nvidia rack. I don't see that happening for a while.
It's a little bit frightening.
>> I don't have Vera Rubin in the basement.
Come on.
>> No, sadly. If you want to send me Vera Rubin, I'll [laughter] home for it. But uh yeah, that's where we're at.
>> Uh this is we're talking to Nate B.
Jones, who is a stellar analyst on the wild AI story going on these days. I watch religiously every morning. He does daily feeds on Tik Tok, on YouTube. He has a Substack, he has a website. He also uh will consult your business, right? I mean, that's that is that your main business?
>> Yeah. So, it's funny that you say that.
I I have a team with me that works on helping me deliver AI transformation stories for businesses. Um, and so I get, as you would imagine, so much inbound coming in, asks for help, asks for AI transformation assistance. I have I have a team I work with to do that.
Um, and I I would say that having those conversations is really exciting for me because it means I get to look at businesses of different scales, see where they're at in their stories, etc. Um, and you know, a lot of my time these days, to be honest, is focused on the things that only I can do. And sort of telling these stories, uh, the way I tell them is something that I've been really obsessing over to make sure that we are getting the right perspective and keeping up and the community is kept up, etc. Um, and then the team steps in and sort of helps out with a lot of the blocking and tackling. We have a little team of our own in Club Twit and Darren Oki who's one of our very active um AI using members says GLM52 is correction 744 billion parameters but it's also a mixture of experts ane model.
>> It's an MO >> so you can kind of run it uh a little easier. One of our other experts blinds did a one bit quant version on his on his double he has two sparks.
>> Oh that's fun. [laughter] That's a fun way to do it.
>> Yeah. I don't know if I'd want to run a one bit quant of anything, but okay. If you >> that's a very dumbed down version of the of the same model. Um, so let me ask you about Kimmy because the the other big story and it's related really is these >> once uh once Fable came back to us and uh Saul Chat GBT56 came out both of them very heavyduty frontier models. The Chinese responded very quickly with with their versions which they say you know they're only one notch below fable quality and they're open weight. Not that you would ever run it uh unless you had a lot of hardware locally, but that does mean that companies like Open Router can run it. Uh >> and Microsoft is looking at comm3 too.
Like it's not just like they're big names looking at it.
>> I would assume Palier is using this in its model. We discussed last week. So, so, so these companies that do have a lot of hardware can run it locally, which which takes it out of the hands of China.
>> Uh puts it if you want, puts it in the United States. uh and uh you know uh there's a lot of thought that this is a threat. We we talked uh privately over the week with about Dean W. Ball's uh Twitter post.
>> Dean uh who is now just as of the last two weeks a strategist, future strategist at OpenAI, suddenly works for OpenAI. By the way, is there such a thing as a past strategist?
>> I I would like to see one >> historian. [laughter] >> Yeah.
>> Is that Christopher Nolan now with the Odyssey?
>> I think so. Yeah. Ball, you know, posted uh and we probably would have talked about this if we didn't have so much else to talk about. Uh posted a thing that scared a lot of people saying all these openweight models are going to put the frontier companies in the US out of business cuz who's going to invest in a frontier company hundreds of billions of dollars when there's open weight companies coming out of AI communism.
>> Yeah, he called it communism basically.
And then the other problem of course is there's some question whether the Chinese might start blocking these openweight models. Although I was very impressed, believe it or not, by President Xi's talk at the AI summit.
>> Yeah, I saw that. Yeah.
>> He he really embraced the idea of open way and and maybe that is the philosophy of the Chinese government. It's just like their belt and roads initiative.
Uh AI for all coming from China. Aren't we great people doing this?
>> You want innovation, you want uh productivity, you want uh uh advancement.
>> And I think he has Jensen Wong shaken in his boots.
>> [laughter] >> They're certainly trying to.
>> He has just long agreeing with him though.
>> That was the interesting thing. We'll talk about that too. But I wanted to ask Nate about Kimmy because you have used Kimmy. I can't because they quickly ran out of inference. Nobody can run it.
>> No, I ran Kimmy through my full test bench.
>> Oh, good. What do you think?
>> Look, it's a very solid model. I think uh the way that I compare most Chinese models with frontier models in the US is by describing them in terms of their ability to generalize across difficult problem spaces. And so I have a visual metaphor for this. I'm going to wave my hands a little bit. A frontier model like 5.6 Six Soul or like Fable 5 is better at generalizing across the edges of a distribution, which means it can tackle more complex around the edges, around the corner tasks. And a Chinese model tends to be spikier. It tends to be more centered from a distribution perspective, which means it can actually be stronger at work that you do all the time. I think a good example is that Kimmy K3 is really, really, really good at websites. It's pretty good at powerpoints. Some of this stuff that is down the middle of the distribution, it's very very strong at.
And to top that all off, as a coding model, it doesn't have guardrail. So I saw someone was able to take a command like copy Mac OS and they got pretty far with Kimmy K3 cuz Kimmy K3 doesn't have any issue with copying Tim's operating system. It's like, oh yeah, that's fine.
I'll do that. Um, and >> you basically made a website that looks exactly like and surprisingly deep.
Looks exactly >> surprisingly deep. Exactly. So it it's a little spikier in the middle. It doesn't necessarily do the edges. And I think that where you see some of these examples like uh the Jacobian conjecture, right? Like those kinds of pieces we continue to see coming out of frontier models because of the frontier models stronger ability to generalize.
But that doesn't mean that tools like Kimmy aren't fantastic for a lot of everyday work.
This is the uh he spent half of his tokens and Kimmy designing. This is a Mac OS. This is a web page, but it has a lot of the functionality of Mac OS.
[laughter] Even Even the point photo booth works and it works with the camera. Uh, you know, I mean, it's it's pretty impressive. This is uh >> But it's not I mean, it isn't obviously an operating system.
>> It's not the full thing, right? I don't want to make the claim it like actually did it, but it did a surprisingly good job for a command that big.
>> Yeah. Well, you one of your videos, how much horsepower, how much hardware do you have to have to run Kim K3? And you talked about its inefficiencies as well.
>> Yeah, it's I I think that that's something that's really important to emphasize like we have at least a lot of the folks I to talk to have a popular narrative that these models are cheap to run because they come from China. And with Kimmy, it's not actually that cheap to run. It tends to produce more tokens per solved problem than the frontier models like Fable and Open AAI's 5.6 soul. And so it's it's roughly somewhere between 1.5 and 2x the number of tokens per solved problem, even if it's correctly solved. Um, and they're not super cheap tokens if you're just getting them from Kimmy directly. And so in that sense, you don't get a ton of savings using Kimmy if you're using it from a cloud provider. Now, obviously, if you're running it internally and your only cost is the power to run the tokens and you're okay with burning more tokens, it's a different story.
>> Yeah. Uh there is though Deepseek V4 Pro which is incredibly cheap to run. I don't know if they're running at a loss or what.
>> Yeah, Deepseek Deep Seek is even like much cheaper.
>> It's so cheap.
>> And I think that's where the narrative came from is because we had that Deep Seek moment and it was so cheap to run, etc., etc. >> Right. Uh but at the same time or shortly after Kimmy came out, uh Alibaba came out with a Quen 3.8. I'm running the preview version of it. It's it seems quite good as well, right? It's a solid model.
>> And then uh there's GLM52, which actually is the one I my day-to-day uh agentic uh model for my Hermes agent.
And it's it's very it feels very solid.
So there are three very good solid models and actually deepse ain't ain't ain't so bad. And it's incredibly cheap.
>> Yep.
>> So I understand this narrative that that China is undercutting American frontier AI. Is you feel that's fair? So, I I think this is one of the things I've always found amusing about this narrative.
Frontier models are notoriously easy to port across borders. It's just a bunch of vector weights in a machine. Uh you can put up guardrails to some extent, but in that world, getting the model across borders is very very trivial. And so in a sense, I'm actually surprised it's taken this long to have and and of course Anthropic says there was a distillation attack involved with Kimmy K3.
>> Well, so does David Sax says, "Oh, it's all distilled. It's all stolen." Even Ball didn't say that.
>> It's not just distilled.
>> It's not distilled. Yeah. Ball says Kimmyy's not distilled. What do you mean it's not distilled? How do they do it?
So what what I mean is that whether or not it is distilled is not a question we have to answer to understand the value of the model because the white papers coming out of China are very very strong on how you engineer models for utility given tight chip constraints like there's a lot of really interesting innovation that's going on and I think it's a little bit disingenuous to say it's only distilled there may be distillation going on we can be ambivalent about that We can say that might be happening, but that doesn't mean that's the only thing that's happening.
>> Zai is building its own data center probably with all Huawei chips. They certainly don't have the Nvidia chips.
What do you think of the See, I feel like this is a lot of this is neer ner uh like oh they probably had stolen Nvidia chips for the training.
>> Do you think that's ne necessary?
>> Who cares? Like who cares? They have a good model. And I think the larger the larger story here is that model proliferation is something we should expect. And just like the Napster era when music just wanted to be free and it took us a while to figure out the business model for that, intelligence kind of just wants to be mostly free.
And I think that the question that the model frontier model labs are going to have to face is in a world where a lot of the everyday intelligence just wants to be free. What is the incremental value add from extraordinary intelligence? Like is there something that's like okay this frontier model from anthropic is incredible with cancer uh and we can charge an arm and a leg for it to people who are working on curing cancer and that's how we'd make our money. Like is that where the future goes? Um I don't know the answer but I think that a lot of the answer looks at basically the price of alpha in a frontier model and says there are certain people who will pay a lot for that and that is where the pricing power will come from and that's where the economics will come from.
>> So do you think there's a huge u uh layer of u AI as infrastructure if China comes in free with good models and they can be run locally?
>> Yes. with uh u open weight um then is there a level of AI that becomes like the internet something we all should expect to just have >> and I think that's where we're going like if you look at like you know well over 95% of JPT users just use the free version it's free they just use it they don't use the best version they get routed to whatever model OpenAI decides is free and that's what they get >> and they don't care and from a corporate perspective I think a lot of the conversation is about how do we constrain token costs, right? And this is something where Anthropic has had a bit of a narrative reversal since late last year when they really broke on the scene over winter break. Uh a lot of companies very publicly, Uber among them are saying, "We've run through our token budget. We can't afford this thing." And they are looking actively at open weights models as a way to continue to provide intelligence to their workers without costing an arm and a leg. And so I think that that's the other piece of this is that instead of just talking about as a consumer story, it's also a corporate story where corporations are trying to figure out how they leverage intelligence within budgetary guardrails.
>> I want to correct myself. It wasn't David Sax. It was his replacement of the office of technology and science policy.
Michael Katzios who >> tweeted, "We have information that Moonshot AI distilled anthropics favorable for the development of the K3 model. Also, they acquire GB300 equipped servers and have accesses to GB300's in Thailand, those sons of guns. And um this is protectionist basically.
>> It It's like you you can't have this and it's bad for you to have it, but it's good for me to have it. Like I don't know. All right. It's not going to last.
>> So, uh tell us what you do and what you use. Uh h how do you use AI? You you were mentioning earlier your wife who is a a Hugo award-winning writer >> uh has is f using AI. She's not using it to write though.
>> No. In fact, >> we should also mention I don't think it's a secret she is uh blind and deaf.
>> Yes, that's right. And she's actually written books about that as well. So, uh Being Seen is her most recent published book and it's all about that experience.
It's a memoir.
>> What's her experience with AI having you in the house?
So she will talk about it and say she feels like AI has been a tremendous accessibility booster for her because it enables her to effectively compute against her environment in ways that would have required her asking for help from folks in other places. And so now she's self-sufficient, right? She's independent in more ways than she was before. Um, and she's I mean she's a very independent lady. You can watch her NPR segment. She fights with swords and rides horses and this and that. But [laughter] >> incredible. Yeah, that's awesome.
>> Um, and yeah, I I'm the dumb one in the house. She's the smart one. But, uh, she she's she's talked about AI being a tremendous, uh, tide coming in. The boat's all being raised as far as how AI is enabling her and other uh, disabled folks to compute against their world and get work done.
Uh, and and even to the point where like you think about settings on your computer and the settings are often in fine print and it's like difficult to navigate them. Well, you can use codecs to do that now, right? You're going to say, "Hey, Codex, fix this. I don't know how to fix it, but just fix it." And >> I do that all the time. I mean, [clears throat] honestly, I haven't configured a computer in months.
>> Exactly. I I I was using codeex. I have this new camera setup. I was using codeex to fix a driver issue with um my camera setup just yesterday and I did it in five minutes. It was great.
>> What's your preferred? You use Cloud Code? Do you use Codeex? What do you like?
>> So, Codeex is my daily driver. Now I do have like if I'm doing a complicated code build um I built a multi- aent system called Ringer which is more token efficient um and so what Ringer does is it takes a a fairly uh fancy model like Fable 5 as an orchestrator uh and then it farms those tasks out to much cheaper models to do the actual coding and so on. So when I'm doing a heavy build, I'll use something like Ringer. Uh but Codex has been really handy because the ergonomics of codecs are really really really clean. Like if I tell Codeex go do this on my computer, cube computer use is fast. It's easy to understand. It just gets it done. Um and >> it's also very good at deleting directories and any >> Well, I use review for me for a reason.
So like the nice thing about review for me is that it puts another model to watch that your intent is beinged throughout. And I do that.
>> Talk you you talked about that in in the video you made about your wife's website that the primary model misqued her and did other things, >> right? So we had to have and and I built that into ringers. It's essentially the same thing where it's guarding and putting checks and balances >> smart. So that why doesn't the model itself come with the things that you add on?
>> Well, if the concern is about hallucinations, >> some agentic harnesses do, >> right? So, so is that going to be something we should expect that becomes built in more uh as opposed to you having to add that on?
>> I don't think that we should expect that to change because I think that we are at a point with models where models are a lot like managing people. And so if I'm managing someone, I don't expect them to be both the author and the editor and the reviewer and the checker of their work and be all the way done with it.
That's not a reasonable expectation because their goal is to write and I need someone else with a different pair of eyes to do the edit and the review >> unless you're a blogger in which we do it all. But go ahead. Yes, >> there you go. Um, but in the same way like I I think that models are single-minded in their purpose. They're they're designed especially for longunning work to be focused on [snorts] a goal obsessively, which is exactly what we saw with this hugging face incident. And when you want to safeguard them, you don't want to tell them, "Please turn down your goal focus because that wouldn't be what you want."
Instead, you want to check and balance, right? You want a different model that has a different goal that can look at that work and say, "Is this in line with the user's intent and with the state of guardrails, right?" And so, I think in that sense, it's less about imagining a perfect model that can do all of this indogenously, and it's more about constructing management systems that allow models that behave like colleagues to work like colleagues. I have been doing that myself kind of intuitively, but I have to take a look at uh what you've built. Um, everybody should follow Nate BJ Jones on Tik Tok or uh YouTube. I watch it every morning. His Substack uh and everything else is at his website, natebjones.com.
And as I think you probably can tell, uh this is uh this is a guy you want to listen to. He's it's there's no hype. uh just smart uh informative information about how to use AI better both as a company and as an individual. Uh I've learned so much from you, Nate, and I'm been wanting to talk to you for a long time. So, I'm thrilled.
>> It's not easy to find you, by the way, Nate. It's hard to find an email for you.
>> You know what? I asked I asked Hermes and it found your secret email address.
So, >> Oh, there you go. That was the secret.
[laughter] >> No, I'm not telling anybody. That's that's my secret sauce. And then for people who are tuning in who are fans of Navy Jones and are going, "Wait a minute. Where's the wool cap? Wait a minute. Where's the you've got a new a beautiful set >> and are you going to not wear the wool cap anymore or what cap are we talking about?
>> It's summer, right? Wearing a beanie hat is something that works better when it's cold and raining out in Seattle and like it's I'm looking out the window.
>> You should pivot to a sauna hat, which is also made a whole >> But they're they're very finished. It's an acquired taste.
I don't even know about that. I didn't either. I like sauna.
>> You should be wearing a sauna hat in the sauna. Makes a big difference. You stay in there for much longer.
>> You wouldn't think wearing a wool hat cools you down, but it really does.
>> And it gets very interesting looks from all the fellow people in the sauna that are not wearing a sauna hat.
>> I'm kind of blown away that you know about sauna hats. I didn't even >> I'm a big sauna fan.
>> Oh, you are.
>> Oh, okay. Well, you're smart. Uh Nate's channel, AI News and Strategy Daily, is uh at Nate B. Jones on YouTube. There's the hat, Paris, just in case you wanted to know. And man, I I loved your old set cuz it looked like we were just sitting with you in your office. You got all fancy on >> just a little bit. We're going to dress it up. The Legos are still here. The books are still here. Um >> you got a producer. That's what happened. I >> There you go. I sold out to the producer. [laughter] >> No, I wish you I wish you the best. Uh, and I'm really thrilled that uh, you do what you do because I've learned so much from you.
>> Same here. Can I ask one more question?
>> Yes, sure.
>> Um, I'm curious about your your your sense of what the policy after the China discussion, >> uh, Gary Marcus in his inevitable fashion had seven options, you know, from do nothing to outlaw um, uh, open source AI.
>> Uh, when Xi and Trump meet, God knows what's going to happen then, >> right? But what would a wise US policy reaction to all of this be?
>> So I think it would be smarter to focus on a common threat modeling framework for extremely advanced AI. And if you think about it from a reducing risk to all of us perspective, it would be great if Chinese and American policy makers could align on this is the capability level where we would set a certain threshold for rollouts and we're all aligned on what that looks like. And I don't see that right now. I'm not even sure that's on the table as a proposed option. But >> is that something that can be quantified now?
>> Yeah, we did it with Fable and we did it with Mythos. Like it's actually not impossible to do. we just need to do it consistently internationally and not just make it a nationalist project. Um, I am a lot less worried about the idea that we have open weights models and they're just going to be there because I don't think you can put the cat back in the bag. Like I think we're going to have open weights models regardless. And if you want to have opinions about chips that are being sold and where they can be sold, you you can do that. But ultimately we are going to live in a world with ambient almost free intelligence and we are all going to decide what we care about accessing based on our own personal preferences. And I actually happen to think that one of the unspoken defenses that American corporations have is the strangle hold that the Apple eyesore has on so much of how we interact with intelligence. Like if you think about it, people are getting these apps and they're downloading them and they're using them.
And yes, there was a Deep Seek moment, but I will tell you, >> even though Deep Seek is in the store, when I look over people's shoulders as they use AI, and I and I do that politely sometimes, and they're normies, and they're not, you know, people who are weird like me who pay for the max plan.
>> They are using chat GPT and they're using ChatGpt because it's a habit. And when I was at Amazon, we like to say Amazon has no moat. The only moat is is the habit of people going to amazon.com.
And I think in that sense, the habit of going to chat GPT is not necessarily something that people are going to shift just because in theory a free openweights model is around. And I think that's worth talking about as well.
>> Well, I know where you'll be talking about it. Uh Nate B. Jones on YouTube.
Nate, thank you so much for your time.
It's really been a pleasure and >> it's been a I hope we can have you back at some point.
>> Yeah, absolutely. It's been a lot of fun to chat. Good. Thank you for Thank you.
Thanks for OB1. That's fantastic.
>> There you I'm glad you love Open Brain.
That's been a really fun >> I uh It's funny because I uh installed it. It took me about um three months to figure out Oh, it's OB1.
>> Yeah, you got it.
>> I'm a little slow.
>> That was a little fun that I snuck [laughter] in there.
>> Nate B. Jones, thank you so much.
>> Thank you. Thank you. It's been lots to talk about. More coming up on Intelligent Machines right after this.
Uh our sponsor for this segment of uh of intelligent machines is rippling. Uh yes, rippling.ai. These days you can chat with AI about pretty much any business problem, but only Ripling AI is built to solve them. What makes Rippling AI different? It's built on your live global workforce data. That makes a huge difference. One platform, one unified source of truth with all your business systems connected from day one. That means Rippling AI can operate with the full context of your live business, surfacing insights and taking action using your org chart, your payroll, device inventory, your compliance obligations, and more. Uh, I'll just give you a simple example. Let's say you, you know, you wake up and you say, I we got some great people. I want to focus on talent retention. So, you go to Rippling AI and you say, just ask a simple prompt. Who are my top performers this year? Now, because Ripling AI has all that information, you're going to instantly receive a complete workforce report highlighting your highest performing employees with supporting data like comp ratios, recent performance reviews, engagement metrics, all the stuff you need to make a intelligent decision. You make the decision. But here's the second part that's awesome. You got the data, you got the insight. Rippling AI can then take that insight and turn it into real action. For instance, as an example, it might say it might recommend a retention strategy that includes a 10% spot bonus for top performers. Reasonable, right?
Well, because permissions are automatically inherited, and your actions flow through your existing approval chains, all you have to do is review, say, "Oh, that's a good idea."
Tap confirm, and boom, the bonus is added to the next payroll run. Just that easy.
Don't settle for AI. That's all talk.
Head to rippling.ai/machines and get the only AI built to give you full visibility across your business and take complex actions across your entire organization. That's ripp png.ai/machines.
Sign up for exclusive access today.
rippling.ai/machines.
We thank them so much for their support of intelligent machines.
And now I've got some Elsa Sunnisenage, I don't know how you pronounce that to to read, too. I can't wait to read some of her stuff. Hugo Awardwinning. And Nate's uh Nate's wife. By the way, I did buy a sauna hat while we were talking.
[laughter] >> I didn't know I needed one.
>> How did I You're muted.
>> How? You haven't stopped talking since we talked about the sauna hat.
>> Oh, that's the amazing thing. I can [laughter] >> I can talk and do things at the same time.
>> At the same time, >> I Googled sauna hats [laughter] and uh and I immediately found a variety of places that sell sauna hats, but I I liked one that was I think it fit my uh my style. I don't know. You have to tell me, Paris, if I if I bought the right sauna hat.
>> Oh, that's a really good one. [laughter] >> [gasps] >> The reason being I'm going on a Southeast Asia cruise in the fall and it's on Viking which has a very [snorts] I'm told >> so funny to see >> a Viking in the Viking. They have they have two things I'm excited about. They have a very good sauna cuz it's they're from Norway or wherever they're from Scandinavia but also they have a snow room. So you go out of this snow room is uh >> yeah that's actually quite uh important.
Sorry I just got an email as I was speaking and unlike you I haven't figured out how to it's always about cycles for I need to not read and talk or I need to develop a second brain like you can read and talk.
>> Well I think too much I need to think less. I think the funny thing about the Viking sauna hat is going to be let like you walk into a sauna, you see someone in a sauna hat, they look a specific way. They look like a little bell.
>> Usually they're just like little flowers.
>> It looks like a completely separate thing. So I like the idea that people are going to be like, "Oh yeah, this man's just really into Viking."
>> Yeah. Sauna hats are supposed to look more like this, right? With a little loop on the top. They look like you look like you're a human bell.
>> It looks like a bell. Yeah.
>> I don't want to wear that. I want to wear Viking [laughter] helmet. So Paris, have you done saunas in Germany?
>> No.
>> Do you know about that?
>> No. What's up with saunas in Germany?
>> They are naked.
>> Naked and mixed >> because >> that's fun.
>> Despite the fact that Germans are obsessive about privacy.
>> Privacy. That's what about this isn't that big of a deal. Apparently not at all.
>> No.
>> They call them your private parts, but are they?
>> So >> Howard Stern, issue a correction.
>> Well, that's how I titled my book public.
>> Public parts. So, I was in Davos, pardon me for that, and I was in the sauna with a bunch of sweating Russians.
And the door opened and in looked me like it was like looked like an American couple and there was this shriek and they closed the door and I thought it was because, you know, there was an American Karen or something and didn't know what she was getting into. And so, there's the days of blogging all the time or tweeting all the time. I blogged about this and then the next year I met the woman who was at the door and shrieked and uh she's actually European and very savvy about all this and she said the reason I shriek is because I saw you and I knew you.
>> Oh, >> that's fair. That's actually a fair >> Yeah, you don't want to go to sauna naked with people you know.
>> No, >> I just think Yeah, you'll never be able to unsee that.
>> Right. Right. I once did an Rte interview in a sauna because I wrote about saunas. They thought this would be funny. So, I had to sit in a sauna doing a TV interview. My friend Michael Olen, the photographer, actually did a book called Sauna Sauna Pictures. He's he's from Finland or No, >> that's where they know how to do it.
>> He's from Norway, but yeah, Finnish saunas are the in their houses.
>> The Norwegians also know how to do it sauna wise. I went to a sauna in Norway that was like multi-levelled and they had people playing saxophones in >> I want a sauna so bad. get one. Leo, what are >> you shower? This house had a steam shower and I thought, well, >> what is the point of having a home if you're not just going to get a sauna?
>> I'm just gonna take the steam shower out and put in a sauna.
>> You can't steam. I like steam, but I like the hot hot hot the sauna and then you put a little water on the rocks and then you get the steam.
>> Replace the piano room you have with a sauna. [laughter] Um, so I a sergeant who is watching says there is no evidence that Viking hat helmets had horns on them.
>> That's >> so I'm going to be a historic anacronism. Maybe I should have bought this instead. This would have been the other hat that I was uh considering. It says on the front Captain Sweat.
>> What do you think?
>> I think that you should get that, but then if anyone tries to refer to you by anything else, you'd be like, "No, I'm sorry. My name is Captain Sweat. Read the hat, please.
>> Do you do a sauna every day?
>> No, I live in Brooklyn. I >> know, but there's got to be a sauna nearby, like a baths or something.
>> There's not as close as you'd want. The nearest is like I I'm in a very unfortunate position.
That's a ridiculous. I'm in a very lucky position. But one of the few unfortunate things about the wonderful neighborhood I live in is I'm like a 20 minute walk away from the nearest gym or and that also includes the sort of thing that would include a sauna and that's just enough walk to a gym. I mean that's crazy.
>> Well I mean I do sometimes but sometimes I bike and it's just it's >> your to theory because we saw it on the on the show.
>> It's true you know and it's >> it takes a minute >> if you're going to the >> Yeah. No, you're right. And that's why I don't I have a gym in in the house and I mostly work out with things like kettle bells and clubs because I want to have it right I don't want to go to the gym.
I want to have it right here. I don't want >> I was I literally this week I've been contemplating whether I should start doing Pilates instead because it's there's like seven Pilates studios within a minute from me.
>> I Okay, I'm going to give you the inside track on Pilates because I'm an expert.
First of all, I have a Cadillac Pilates in the gym. I bought a very nice one because I >> It sounds like you're having a stroke, even though I know that those are words that go together.
>> Yeah, it's the big one with the the metal bars and you can hang by your feet from cuffs and there's does it's the full reformer. It's the whole kitten kaboodleoodle with all the springs and everything. And because I used to go every single day to do Pilates uh for years, I never got more fit. [laughter] It's it's kind of good for stretching, but it isn't it's not aerobic. It's hard, but I don't I think you're getting more out of your orange theory than you would be getting out of Pilates. I'll be honest with you. Now, it's easy on the body.
>> I need to figure out Well, there's a lot of places near me that seem to be fairly intense. I know a lot of people that's the new thing are very you know like body fast.
>> I would say they do find that if you're going to a like certain class with instructors who part of [clears throat] the goal is to push you and actually like you end up leaving very sore.
[snorts] >> But I don't will make >> I mean I'm I'm going to try and >> that's what you're going for. I just I I want I know I I think if I go to a class of some sort that is a less like a one minute walk from my house, I'll probably go more than it's a good life.
>> It's just annoying to have to have an hour workout and then calculate that it'll be an extra 40 minutes when you calculate how long it takes you to get there and back. Like I don't in our in our Discord says a good Pilates is excellent for strength and flexibility, not aerobics. I would agree. Although it's it's not see I as a older man on a GLP1 I need to do uh weight resistance.
You will too because women often have lose bone mass and I don't think Pilates gives you enough weight. I don't think >> I mean that's the thing is I ideally would like a workout that mixes cardio and actual strength training.
>> Exactly. That's what we should have.
>> I don't know. [clears throat] Do I? It seems impractical to me. Constantly going 30 minutes everywhere. I'm sorry for taking up podcast time with everybody.
>> You're young. You can you can put it off for another 20 years.
>> I haven't yet gone to Schvitz with the Altra cockers in the Jewish Community Center gym that I just joined.
>> That's what I want to do. I will say that's I mean >> I would wear my >> I got I've got to do this to conquer >> I in the in the WhatsApp I put in a link because this is going to be a trip that you're going to have to take now that I know this to the the terma in Munich. It is a sauna wonderland. There are 23 distinct saunas on this page.
>> You have to help me convince Lisa that this house what this house really needs >> is a sauna. What this house really needs is for you to hire another contractor to do more [laughter] work.
>> Oh. Oh, you today scaffolding put up on the entire west side of the house. We finished this outside. Now it's the west side.
>> And are you removing the wall as well?
>> Uh oh. Yeah. You're going to hear loud noise.
>> Are any of the walls okay in your house?
>> Well, we're just doing the south and west and hoping the east and north will be okay. [laughter] >> That's not good. That's how.
>> By the way, if you should open the door to a sauna and see this, it would be okay if you screamed [laughter] >> cuz there no towels.
[laughter] [screaming] >> All right. This is a show about AI ostensibly, although I've realized long ago that [laughter] that is far more than that. Uh we didn't mention we tal mentioned we didn't talk too much about this wild tweet during uh the um World Cup finals uh on Sunday from a guy working at OpenAI. Levent is his uh handle. Uh he uh his his description he looks like a pretty young guy is idiot. CUDA a OG Harvard Val Morgan Prize Society of Fellows one Hilbert problem so far creating friendly safe delightful super genius things at anthropic. [snorts] So he is an anthropic employee. He said hello there the Jacobian conjecture is false. Thanks to my close friend Akquil for asking about it. My other close friend Fable for working during the World Cup final. He came up with you know so this I don't know what the Jacobian conjecture is >> but he came up with a counter example so you know you make a conjecture and you say either prove this or prove it wrong one way or the other and he came up with the prove it wrong and mathematicians have looked at it and said uh yeah fables solved this uh pretty impressive.
pretty I mean I don't know it's is it world changing but there is a general consensus now in the mathematic >> well they're there it's funny they're the field that is most scared right now >> yeah 87 years the jacobian uh conjecture [clears throat] has baffled it's a 216 character long polomial it's baffled mathematicians nobody's been able to prove or disprove it is now disproven and I think it answers the question can uh AIs do creative work because there is no example out there of it being proven or disproven.
Um, >> but it is a logic it is a logic puzzle though. So like that's what that's what >> that's the kind of thing it could do. In rough terms the Jacobian conjecture says that a certain kind of polomial map one whose jacobian determinant is a nonzero constant must be reversible with a neat polomial inverse. So what fable did is it came up with this polomial and showed it is not inversible reversible.
Um the new scientist calls it the hardest math problem that AI has yet cracked. We know that it's solved some of the erdos uh conjectures.
Um pretty I'm just saying I don't know what to say about it.
Uh Levent is uh also at Harvard. uh right now. So, you know, he's a small.
>> That's quite interesting.
>> Haven't we always known that computers are better at math than humans? Like, that's just a thing we already know.
>> I mean, yeah. It I feel like is a continuation of one of the things that people said from early days on that large language models and AI would be quite good at.
>> Um, let's see. So, uh that we we kind of talked about that with Nate. I just wanted to do the full followup on that.
And I guess we talked about China and the one two punch uh delivered to America's AI dominance.
Uh >> the Dean Ball post is pretty amazing. We talked about it.
>> Let's talk. Yeah, we talked about it um a little bit and you and I talked about it more on uh on our uh Discord or rather uh >> WhatsApp >> WhatsApp chat. Dean Ball is uh a a conservative >> Yeah. Manhattan Institute guy. guy. But his contention is that by giving away these openw weight models, China is undermining the ability of companies like Anthropic and his employer Open AI to raise money >> because who would give money?
>> And so it's communism. It's going to undermine everything. He says he didn't anticipate the reaction of this and he kind of backpedalled a little bit, right?
>> Yeah, a little bit. But but it was but but I talked about this with with Jason earlier. And by the way, Jason opened his show with a plug for having Nate B.
Jones on.
>> Oh, thank you, Jason.
>> So amazing that uh >> we should plug your show. It's AI inside with the wonderful Jason Howell. And uh >> so as we read his paragraph about communism, uh it's what Nate just said basically is that is that you know he put it as intelligence was going to be I forget the words he used exactly, but it was going to be something we all have access to.
>> I loved that. And I wish I remember the exact words he said. Uh chat room, can you remember? Um but I think that's the communism that Ball is talking about and that he considers a great threat. But sorry man, it's market.
>> Yeah.
>> Um you know, it's what happened in in in newspapers. It wasn't Craigslist who hurt newspapers. It was the internet as a whole that put buyers and sellers directly together.
>> And as Craig said uh to me when I had him speak to my students early on, he was a philanthropist of classified ads.
He left money in people's pockets. same kind of thing.
>> I I would also say that people have said the same thing about open source.
Remember Microsoft used to say Linux is a cancer because it undermined >> right >> Microsoft's ability to make money in Windows. It didn't at all. The you know the year of the Linux desktop is still not here and Microsoft still makes plenty of money on uh Windows. I am hugely grateful for open source. I use a ton of open source software. In fact, almost all the AI stuff I do is open source. I run it on an open source Linux desktop. Um, but it has not put closed source out of business in any degree.
And so I think that that's probably going to be the same.
>> Is Apache still the primary web server being >> Yeah. Engine X, but it's open source.
Nobody didn't hurt anybody.
>> Microsoft Well, it might have hurt Microsoft's closed source I [laughter] >> but escape. Sorry.
>> Yeah, they couldn't. they probably don't make a lot of money on their their web server. Uh almost everybody uses open source web servers. But um I think in general open source is is not has not replaced closed source software. I mean this is a very interesting take from someone at opening eye given the those emails from Sam Alolman that had come out recently in some lawsuits I think somewhere in the rundown perhaps um where he in 2022 essentially said that oh we need to be developing and releasing like some open- source models for us from a strategic perspective.
>> Yeah, I thought that was kind of interesting. Uh this is the email from uh 2022 to the an open AI board member.
This came out in the Musk versus Altman uh trial. That's how we know about it.
Discovery is a wonderful thing. We have been having writes Sam extensive discussions around open source strategy.
We'll discuss it more in our next board meeting. One thing we'd like to do soon is to create a language model with the approximate capability of GPT3 that which was at the time kind of the current best model, right? that can run or maybe like the second best model that can locally run on consumer hardware and release that. We'd like to do it soon before stability or someone else does.
Remember stability AI? Remember them in general? [laughter] We Whatever happened to them? We think this helps discourage others from releasing similarly powerful models and makes it harder for new efforts to get funded. They never did that. They didn't have to.
It was done. Oh, in some indication of the fight that's going on here, the um under secretary of defense Emil Michael responded to Dean Ball's post saying, quote, "Every industry ecosystem has its supreme village idiot." Dean Ball is that for AI.
>> Emil Michael SAID THAT. WOW.
>> Dean Ball has perhaps the biggest gap between actual IQ and his own perceived IQ of anyone in the industry. About 40 points.
>> Wow.
gives you some idea of the administration's reaction to um >> Well, this is the problem. I think there is a lot of disagreement within the administration. There's there's people who are telling Trump, "Oh god, you got to shut down these Chinese models.
You're putting us out of business." And you Michael, who is in the administration saying the opposite.
Um I don't I don't I don't know. I mean, we are very protectionist in this country. Look, you can't get a Chinese EV for any >> pisses me off every day. I would kill to get a Chinese EV.
>> The only reason is to protect uh >> yes, it's pure protectionism.
>> American automakers, chiefly Tesla.
Uh and it's, you know, um yeah, it's not good for consumers. It's good for those companies.
>> It's not good for innovation and development. I mean, this is this is Jensen Wong's argument is that more, and it's an obvious argument, and he's he's blunt about it. More open source AI. AI means more chips.
>> Yeah. But let's talk about Jensen Wong because he you said that he isn't trying to protect his moat.
>> He's in favor of open source AI. He has Neatron. He wants >> He's got the only decent American open model. Llama's not. Neatron is the closest thing. This is from Axios.
He told Mike Allen uh in an interview for the behind the curtain video series at Axios. these Chinese models are excellent. Open- source models that are excellent should be used.
Now, he wants to sell to China. We should point out he's >> and thinks that that by being forbidden to sell to China, that is what has opened the door for China to compete with both hardware and software. And while and and >> and they have >> they have it I don't know if the presumption that um Moonshot used GB 300's else from other you know stolen or from other countries is true.
>> U but I think Huawei trained entirely trained um Quen >> on Huawei chips maybe. Yeah they're not as good uh as Nvidia chips. I'm sure that's true. And they're being and I have to say for sure they're running the inference right when I'm using GLM52 on a Chinese server. I'm using Quen 38 on a Chinese server and uh so I'm sure they're not using in >> well as we talked about some time ago too.
>> China being a controlled economy can devote as much energy as it wants.
>> Exactly.
>> Plus efficient.
>> By the way, I would say this to the Trump administration. China is on the forefront of solar energy. They have plenty of energy >> because they support sustainable solar energy >> hydro as well >> and hydro. In fact, most of their energy they I think more of their energy now is coming from sustainable sources than than coal or fossil fuels.
So, you know, if you if you want to you want to improve our economy, that might be a good way to start instead of shutting all this stuff down and making it better for oil producers.
Um, Scott Bent told Fox Business that the administration is examining Chinese AI models for stolen intellectual property.
He said, "If we see that overseas models are stealing from our great companies, we have the ability to sanction them because of this theft, which has caused some people to say, download all the open models. Get them all while you can. You won't be able to run them locally, but >> I didn't see reports on G's speech to the AI conference. Did you see more about that?
>> Yeah, let me see if I can find >> Yeah, tell me about that. I'd be eager to hear more.
>> Yeah, I'm going to I can paraphrase it that he was uh very uh much he said for open weight models and spreading AI uh throughout the world.
>> So that seems to give lie to the speculation that he's going to shut down, >> right? And in fact, it could well be that that speculation is coming out of the US.
Um, she positioned China as a leader of a new global AI order. This was he was the speaker at the World Artificial Intelligence Conference in uh Shanghai in July 17th. He said open- source AI is a historic opportunity and warned that unequal access could create new global divisions. Yeah.
>> Mhm. His address linked China's expanding AI capabilities with a diplomatic strategy focused on developing economies. This is why I liken it to the B belt and road uh initiative, Asia, Africa, Latin America, and the broader global south. The have nots, right? Uh he believes in uh technology sharing with the BRICS countries, the Asian countries, the African Union, the Latin American partners.
I think this is very interesting. It completely counter to the argument that they're going to shut it down. This is where this was the conference that Moonshot introduced Kimmy at, by the way.
>> Ah, okay.
Well, that gives me some hope there. I don't know what the reaction of the markets will be.
>> It it also speaks people off who really hate China.
>> Yeah. [laughter] >> I want their cars. I want their AI.
>> I'm not a fan of repressive regimes. I'm not either, but >> I understand that they are a repressive regime, but when they say something that makes sense, got to acknowledge it. [snorts] Meanwhile, we've got uh data center phobia going on. 142 protests this week against data centers across 42 states.
>> Jeez, our data, our tax dollars, our seized homes, our utilities.
Uh this is was uh coordinated by humans first co-founded by a former leader of the tea party. So you understand where this is coming from who compares growing opposition to data centers to the right-wing populist movement that emerged in 2009 as the tea party. This is the new tea party.
Protesters rallied against what humans first called the unaccountable buildout of data centers and unacceptable infringement on our liberty.
We thrive on water, not data. said one sign. [laughter] [snorts] >> You can't drink data.
>> Pretty fly for a sis guy says, "Are they protesting all data centers or just AI data centers?"
>> Right. That's the >> You don't want the internet.
You don't want your bank.
>> Yeah. I You know, I understand. I I wouldn't want a data center across the street from me. I completely understand.
>> Uh >> could they be made better looking? they could be made less polluting.
>> I mean, yeah, I think there's a lot of concerns with these both uh from a like neighborhood perspective. Uh they're an eyesore. They often have, you know, um higher noise levels than some people maybe feel comfortable with or feel like they were informed about. Uh communities often don't feel like they had any sort of not they were not informed beforehand that a data center would be coming. It's because a lot of these large scale deals that tech companies end up striking to get tax breaks occur the negotiations occur largely in secret and that makes people in these sort of communities feel like they've been caught off guard whenever one >> a deal is announced.
>> There's also just a general uglification going on with warehouses everywhere on top of data centers. There are these there are these monolithic buildings.
They're just ugly as hell.
>> I understand. I really >> It probably tanks your real estate value, too.
Yeah. Well, especially if they use gas generators right next to you. Yeah.
>> All right, let's take a little break. We uh you're watching Intelligent Machines, Jeff Jarvis, Paris Martino. So glad you're here. Bonito Gonzalez, that's the voice from the Philippines joining us, our producer. Uh our show today brought to you by Zscaler, the world's largest cloud security platform. Uh you've heard me talk about Zcaler before. Of course, it ties right into what we're talking about with AI, the rewards of AI in your business. You you can't ignore. If you're not using it, your competition is. But it's also important you should not ignore the risks. And that can include the loss of sensitive proprietary data. Not intentionally, even uh inadvertently.
But but of course, there are also attacks against enterprise managed AI.
And let's not forget the bad guys use AI themselves, helping them to rapidly create fishing lures and write malicious code and automate data extraction. Steve had a great story yesterday on Security Now about AI being used to analyze the data that was stolen in a ransomware attack. And there was so much of it that AI was very helpful to the bad guys.
I I don't want to un underplay though the idea that you might accidentally be exfiltrating proprietary data. Just think of an employee uploading your tax returns to an AI. You know, I need to analyze them, right? Yikes. That might be why there were 1.3 million instances of social security numbers leaked to AI applications.
Let's put it this way. It's time to rethink your organization's safe use of public and private AI. That's what Chad Pallet did. He's the acting CISO at Bio IVT. He says Zcaler helped them reduce their cyber premiums, their their insurance by 50% and they doubled their coverage and they improved their controls. Watch [music] with Zcaler. As long as you've got internet, you're good to go. A big part of the reason that we moved to a consolidated [music] solution away from SDWAN andVPN is to eliminate that lateral opportunity that [music] people had and that opportunity for misdirection or open access to the network. It also was an opportunity for us to maintain and [music] provide our remote users with a cafe style environment.
>> Thank you Chad. With Zcaler zero trust plus AI, you can safely adopt generative AI and private AI to boost productivity across the business without the risk.
Their zero trust architecture plus AI helps you reduce the risks of AI related data loss and protects against AI attacks to greater guarantee improve productivity and [clears throat] compliance. It's best to everything.
Learn more at zscaler.com/security.
That's zscaler.com/security.
We thank them so much for supporting intelligent machines.
>> So Leo, Google's results are out.
>> Oh, you know, I was about to talk about Google because they've for unaccountably renamed Notebook LM Gemini notebook.
>> Somebody on the socials said that was the first good branding decision they've made in years.
>> Well, it is kind of it's all Gemini now, but I feel like everybody knew what Notebook LM was. Maybe not. Maybe not.
Maybe we do because we talked about it so much. They also released new models, but everybody's saying, "But where's where's your high-end model?" Their new models are flash, there's light, they're small models, and we're not seeing a a Gemini. I mean I think >> the thing that is the most uh useful about the notebook alm name is I was just talking about this with someone in journalism when I was talking I was explaining to them notebook and I was like well you know says >> most people don't know what it is Leo and people who do might read the name and think okay it's another LLM and then you have to explain the rag of it all and that's just it is not particularly intuitive >> Gemini notebook book probably in the long run.
>> I mean, I dislike that Gemini is in there because I think that that implies more so that it's uh a Gem like part of the Gemini chatbot when it is.
>> I I I didn't ask Nate about this, but I think the general feeling about Gemini models is they're not that good. They're not >> I would have liked to have heard us you on that.
>> They're not open AI anthropic quality, which is weird cuz Google's has deep mind. This all came out of Google.
Transformers came out of Google.
>> It wasn't that long ago we said Google was ahead of the pack. So it just goes back and forth.
>> I don't understand why they're not.
Well, we thought they might be ahead of the pack. Then I tried the model and it was like no, they're not. [snorts] >> I have yet.
>> I mean, it's also I'm just curious as to why how is Gemini lagging like this?
What has led them ostensibly? If you think about it from a pure >> resource perspective, who is better positioned to have access to training data than Google?
>> They also didn't work well about it, Leo, what was what was >> it just isn't I mean you could I it's hard to describe because >> AI is so as Nate said, jaggy. Uh you know, the capabilities are good here and bad here and so forth. So it's really hard. I don't think benchmarks do it justice. I don't think it's it's very hard to evaluate an AI. So, it's anything I say is very subjective. It's very gut feel. It it just didn't feel that smart. And then occasionally you'll get a a model doing something really dumb.
>> And when you catch it doing that, my general reaction is, okay, I'm not going to use you anymore. [laughter] So, uh I don't remember exactly what I didn't like about Gemini, but I I never went back to I have a $200 account. I think Nate made a very interesting proposition um saying that he wants the model to do one thing and then he wants a different model to do another task and another one to do another task. The writer, the producer, the editor.
>> Well, that's that's where everybody's going. I do that >> with your Hermes does that um automatically. You have a delegation.
Everybody's going to be talking about this where you have a model for different like for vision recognition. I in fact do use Gemini Flash. I actually use a local model uh for my cameras. My my security cameras uh go through a local Quen uh VL model that's very good.
It's pretty funny. Calls me an older man though. I don't like that one cotton picking bit. Older than what [laughter] it says, I see Leo, an older man with white hair [laughter] walking up the step.
>> You thought AI was your friend. Wait till I get my son a hat. and you'll see something. So, but but that's a little tiny that's like a 4B.
I don't even think it's that big. Tiny little model running locally.
You know what I did? I I shouldn't Well, I'll talk a little bit about what I I feel like we should have a conversation about this. I was telling uh Jeff this uh I feel like sharing what I'm doing with AI is like people talking about their dreams. It's intensely ins interesting the person talking about it >> and it's like a snoozefest for anybody listening.
>> No, I well correct.
>> No, that's not really because I think it's No, it's very interesting and I I I will I'm sorry. I apologize. I'll do it in the public and I I former Californian I uh I've said it before and I'll say it again. I thought when you asked me what question should I asking? What do you want to predict? And I asked for a podcast related prediction that that was fitting the bill. I didn't realize that that was considered as insulting. So I'm sorry.
>> I didn't was not insulted. No, no, no. I was just trying to read the room and my my maybe I misread the room, but my sense was, "Oh, well, um, here I am talking about my dreams again online about your ad service, your ad."
>> That's kind of stalled out right now.
Lisa said, "I don't like it."
>> Oh, [laughter] no. Well, I was going to say it's fascinating.
>> I think that's actually interesting.
What does she not like about it?
>> Because that's the thing is a lot of stuff that can seem technically as if it is on par with uh recreating another commercially available software made by EI. Sometimes the vibes are just off.
>> It could well be. Vibes are everything.
Um my premise on this I first of all we I'm we're we have a 12-year-old sales system that's basically mysql.net net and a bunch of queries. It breaks down a lot. It's very slow. We have to keep throwing more hardware at it, but it it's what we've been using for 12 years and it's and it's worked very well. And it does some, you know, smart things like ro it rotates the ad positions so that advertiser isn't always in the first position, things like that. But, uh, you know, people have been complaining about it for 12 years. So I thought this might be a good project for AI. And uh uh what I did was uh I thought well code is the best spec.
You know you can write a verbal spec but honestly a program if you can look at the source code is a really good spec for the next program the next generation. So I thought well I have the spec. I have the existing sales system.
I have all the code I have the database schema. I have everything. Let me steer.
let me give it to Fable because this was when we first got Fable and have Fable uh create a specification that we can then build on and improve.
And the next step was then to go interview uh the users of this system including Lisa and and uh and and Fable gave me questions to ask them. And I and I did all of that. Uh it did a very complete uh specification.
I also told it I thought I'm being very smart here. I said, "Uh, okay, I'm gonna have Fable, but I don't know for how long." So, what I'm going to do is have Fable one model do the spec, write out all the plans. I'm going to have Open AI's top model 56 Saul review it. I'm going to have them go back and forth.
It's kind of what Nate was talking about, but I did it poor man's version.
I didn't have some big harness. I just said, >> "Tell tell I call uh I have they all have names. Kenobi is anthropic and uh Detilus is opening. I said to Kenobi, "Tell Detilus you're working on this.
Have it look at it." And then I gave them a mailbox so they could talk back and forth. I said, "Every 10 minutes, check the mailbox." And so they're talking back and forth, right? Reviewing it, changing it, reviewing it, changing it. And then I was going to have the coding done because I thought Fable I would be either too expensive or gone.
Um, I had was going to have the coding done by Opus 48, which was it still is the the next level down from Anthropic and that's what I've been doing. And the other thing I did, and this is I've learned from long experience. You know, they always talk about oneshotting. I'm going to give it a single prompt and have it do everything. And uh I I don't think that's the best way to use an AI.
I think a better thing is to divide it up into chunks. You can review at every point. I I really tried to engineer this properly and uh so we we did that. We built something and then I asked Lisa and Debbie to look at it and they had a lot of input because they didn't do the UI at all. It just did the it wanted to do the back end, >> which I thought was the right way to do it, but I was my mistake. Uh so they reviewed it. I had them make videos as they reviewed it because I said you can you can tell me that's not going to be a good that's gonna be telephone tag. You could record something which we did with a with a Zoom call but best thing to do would be you to go through the old system and the new system with videos and circle it and and by the way uh Fable can look at these videos can I said can you see what they're doing they said yes I can screenshot it and so we did this whole back and forth I have many many videos more than a dozen videos of them saying yes and no then I realized part of the problem was that the interface was so different so a couple of nights ago I said hey you know what make the interface identical to the old one maybe that'll make it easier for them to see what they want to have changed.
That might have been a mistake.
[laughter] >> The amount of detail I just went through a few of the pages on the site.
>> Oh, yeah. You can if people want to see this, they go to pages.
>> It's mindbending and it's and it's its own language.
>> Yeah. So, this started with just these first few. And I told it as you work, write these all up as so that I can review it and a human could review it. And it these are the questions it has. Yes, it's very detailed. There's there's code.
There's everything here cuz I wanted to make sure it was fully documented partly so that Detilus could look at it. And you see here's Detilus's audit of Kenobi's work and how Kenobi did it. So this is all fully documented right up to here. Did you feel a little rushed because you were going to lose?
>> Yes. And that that was the other remember last week I showed you Super Daario as he keeps extending. The latest, by the way, is I'm not going to lose Fable. I'm going to get 50% on my on my subscription. I still have Fable.
I could probably have done this all with Fable, but I like the model. I like mixing it up. By the way, I don't just have I also have GLM52 reviewing this and I had Gro 45. So, I have all these a agents looking at it.
>> That's the easy part. It's your wife.
That's the hard part.
>> The human's the tough part. She's a tough.
>> Anyway, I we'll probably keep doing it.
That's not the only project. I'll show you one more.
>> You remember I like to make bagels, right?
>> Oh, yes. Is this the what led to that beautiful bagel pick you sent?
>> Oh, you saw my you saw. So, >> listen, I don't get all the notifications for our WhatsApp group.
>> That's okay. You got a job.
>> I don't have a job.
>> It's true. I do get a when I see a beautiful bagel pick, I've got to respond. The bagels are fantastic. So, um, our neighbor, I have a couple of kids live down the street and I mentioned that I make bagels. And one of them said, "Oh, you know, I love bagels." I said, "Why don't you come over you and your brother come over and I'll teach you how to make bagels." And >> like this, the Mr. Wizard of >> Yeah. Then I had a thought. I thought, you know, I could turn this into a a teaching moment. I could actually do the chemistry of sourdough bagels. And then I did say something that I worked out quite well. I asked um my Hermes agent to make a comic book for the kids >> on on the kids. And by the way, [laughter] it looks like >> general kids.
>> That kind of looks like me, right? It's supposed to look like me and that looks like Sarah and Matthew. And it's on the chemistry. They even made it the whole thing. This is a oneshot prompt. It made up superheroes. That's yeasty the [laughter] and lacto. That's glutenet. There's amalayise. There's mayard. And uh there's the final one that's live. And >> why is there a pickle?
>> Yeah. What's the pickle?
>> The pickle. That's a bacterium. That's lacto.
>> But it's a pickle.
>> It's a Well, it does look like a pickle, but it's actually a lactobacillus bacterium [laughter] that makes the tangy sourdough taste. It explains all of >> that. Now, this is something we can get behind. Leo, >> this is so It made up. It did this perfectly. It gave them little assignments. It has cute little pictures of all the things going on. It has a dialogue.
We're eating micro poop. And then I say, "Yes, welcome to all of cooking.
Sugar plus CO2. Sugar goes to CO2 plus ethanol plus energy." It had It is a chemistry lesson. This came off I was stunned. This came off beautifully. So, this is a really good example again of I think how you could use AI.
>> What was your prompt for that? How much how much was the prompt?
>> Wasn't very I will uh I can I have it. I saved it cuz I was really curious if it could do it. I didn't know I would.
>> Which model did that again?
>> Um I think GLM52, >> but remember it has other tools it can use. So I I don't it probably used Google for the image generation.
Um anyway, uh it was a maybe a paragraph something like I am about to cook bagels with Sarah and Matthew. They're eighth.
Actually, I said they were seventh graders and I forgot they had graduated.
They're eighth graders. And uh so I had him it changed it. Uh and I want to I want to make it kind of a chemistry lesson. So can you make a comic on the chemistry of sourdough bagels? That was pretty much it.
>> I didn't tell it what the chemistry was.
I didn't tell anything else. Uh then I got pictures of them and I got a picture of me and I got pictures of my bagels, the one I sent to you. So I said, "Make sure it looks like my bagels and it looks like me and it looks like them."
And it does. I mean, in a comic book fashion, but the bagels bagel is going to you had is going to fail at a drug test.
>> Doesn't it? Don't those bagels But they look pretty fantastic.
>> They look like my bagels. It look exactly what they look like. Oh, I sent it the video, too. Remember, we did a video with the club of me making bagels.
And I sent it the video so it knows what the bagels look like in the pot when they're boiling. It knew. So, it was able to modify. This is a modified second gen version that you're told to be careful with the lie. So, here's the funny thing. So, we got an eighth grade boy. I thought, you know what? Let's make some danger. I did not tell it. It decided to do a whole thing on lie safety. [laughter] >> Oh, cuz I knew that would make Matthew happy. Oh, this is dangerous. Yeah.
[laughter] I don't know if his parents will be happy about it.
Anyway, fun project. So, there's a couple of projects. I And you know what that one thing Gemini might have helped out with? I really love Nano Banana. I think it's a very good image model and it might have I could I could probably go back through the transcript and find out what tools it uses. I know I could.
Um, but how were Google's results? But before we do that, you're watching Intelligent Machines with Paris Martino.
And >> when we come back, I've got an update on the AI corn situation. And >> oh the corn >> that your your uh rabbit hole led me to wonder what's up with proof of >> what's up with the corn.
>> I've got a response for you after this ad break >> or not. Oh, I can. Okay.
>> No, no, no. Or not no ad break cuz there is in fact no ad.
>> Uh except there might be because but you don't need to know this but we insert ads sometimes after the fact.
>> Hey, there could be an ad break or there couldn't. It's hard because there's never a video ad break.
>> So if you're watching the video, we have to make it seamless that we're going through it. So it's just a re-enter. So you're watching Intelligent Machines with Jeff and Paris. And now we continue with the Google results. So that's seamless. But >> if they stick an ad in the audio, >> it also has to work there.
>> Oh, I see.
>> I never explained that, did I?
>> No, you didn't. No, >> no, I kind of figured it out along the way, but I thought that this was a real ad break.
>> Well, I've also figured it out because some podcasts I listen to don't do that and they'll just be in the middle of a sentence and then suddenly it will be an ad and I'll get very angry.
>> Um, so if you recall some months ago, we visited a little website called proof ofcorn.com.
>> I love this idea. Someone was sicking a clawed agent on trying to get corn to be sold at Union Square Farmers Market in early August and it put on it. It has been a complete failure. It seems [laughter] there have been uh what was the last update? It's like here it is. Um >> they had trouble at what finding somewhere to plan it. What was it that >> they had? Trouble finding finding a person to plant it, finding the plot of land. It seems to have gotten stuck in some sort of email loop.
But it's also confusing because the front of the web page says the target is August 2nd. Sweet corn is planted and growing at Nelson Family Farms in Humboldt County, Iowa. On track for the farm crew. Next up, harvest. But then if you look up, it says the last action was 89 days ago [laughter] where it said emergency escalation continues. Project remains in critical failure state after five consecutive days of emergency decisions without seed purchases. And if you look at the full decision log, it does not appear that the corn has >> What did it say about Fred Wilson?
That's a famous venture capitalist.
>> Fred Wilson is the name of the farmer farmer.
>> Yeah. Or no, Fred Wilson, the venture capitalist. Now, Fred Wilson challenged Seth, the guy who ran this AI can write code, but it can't affect the physical world. And so, Seth at Seth built the claw code uh corner.
>> Well, here's the good news. He's only spent $12.99.
>> The bad news is for many weeks, nothing has happened.
>> Nothing.
>> Poor farmer Fred.
>> Yeah. It's also unclear how much they've sp meant because uh the if you go on the dashboard it says the total investment's been 1129.
So there's still not much. It just it all seems to be a bit >> nightmare or a bit convoluted. And the one thing I can say is it seems unlikely that corn will be at Union Square.
>> I don't think it even got this week.
>> It's unclear whether it got planted. The last post from June 15th said, "Continue prioritizing response to Dan Nelson's monitoring equipment inquiry while maintaining postplanning operations monitoring." But I don't think they ever really >> planted the >> planted. Well, plus Iowa. Why would you Why would you plant corn in Iowa for New York when you're next to New Jersey, folks?
>> I think a lot of people forget that corn can be grown elsewhere.
>> We have corn down the street growing. It grows quite well in Paluma. there. Um, if you go on the dashboard, you can prompt Fred to act by clicking a button called ask Fred to act. And I did that and it went Fred's decision internal error. So, >> I think it's broken.
>> Yeah. And I think uh it was Fred Wilson who challenged him. So, it was the Fred Wilson, I think, who challenged him. But yes, it was >> uh Seth, I think maybe was the wrong kind of challenge >> cuz the last post on X was weather's perfect for planning in Iowa. Too bad [laughter] we don't have any day under a month ago. Day of 144. We're just getting started. [laughter] [snorts] Uh, it knows the weather.
That's about it. I I think the real problem was they couldn't get any human to do it.
I mean, yeah, it seems like it totally failed in the outreach of trying to get a human involved to actually because they needed to find a field somehow, rent or purchase some space in a field, get a human with actual equipment out there to also have purchased corn and plant it, till the fields, water it.
There's a lot of physical out there.
>> Do not take this as a failure of AI.
[laughter] Take the failure of Seth.
Seth didn't do a good job. Maybe if they just had open the podcast and tell us about why you proof of corn.
>> Oh, let's track down Farmer Fred and Seth. We could have a little interview.
>> He's at Seth on uh >> Oh, I'm going to tweet him right now cuz you know I am a blue check.
>> It's true. And that means >> and I know Fred Wilson, too.
>> Well, there you go. Let's track it down.
Uh Jeff, you said the Google uh results >> results are out. Yeah. Let me just guess they made more money than god on not AI advertising hosting. Hosting posted 24% revenue growth year-over-year the second quarter fueled by its booming cloud business.
>> Oh, >> but concerns over the company's heavy spending on artificial intelligence infrastructure dampened investors enthusiasm.
>> Yeah.
>> Alphabet sales came in at 119.8 8 billion, exceeding analyst expectations, but not by enough. Cloud business brought in 24.8 billion. Search 63.3 billion.
>> They're down four bucks.
>> Um, but as the Yeah, they're down about 4% last I looked.
>> Look at that drop. Boom. But what's interesting to me here, Leo, if I can tie this to something else, >> is the hosting business. Meta is now those who can do those who can't host.
So Meta is now renting out the infrastructure it bought. Uh SpaceX is renting out the infrastructure it bought. Google's making a lot of money from the infrastructure it bought. Well, think who are they selling to? What what a great way to make money. It's the same thing as Levis's selling the jeans and the picks and tax axes to the in the gold >> r if what you're selling to is companies that are about to be threatened by cheap Chinese imports. Uh-oh. Spaghettiios.
>> Meta Meta's deal with anthropic potentially $10 billion according to the New York Times.
>> Um, this what happens when you buy a lot of infrastructure and you can't use it.
>> Didn't Didn't Mark spend a lot of money on on talent buying manis?
What what's happened with all of that?
>> Yep.
>> But so now we get out and the stock is up because he's renting out the infrastructure.
>> Selling excess computing power to companies like anthropic, the Times writes, could provide Meta with a new revenue stream until demand for its own AI services catches up, which I'm going to say, I mean, go out on a limb here is going to be a while. [laughter] Uh, wow. On recent calls with investors, Zuck hinted that selling computing power could be one way for Meta to see some return on the AI investments.
>> That's that's great. I was going to say if the way that you're going to see a return on investment is by selling computing power.
>> That's rough.
>> Yeah. Anyway, well, good luck. Uh, I'm glad Google made money. I'm not surprised.
Not surprised at all. We, you know, the thing we don't know, I know we talked about this last week. I still don't think we really know what the true financials are of any of the AI companies.
>> Uh, I know Ed Citran got the, you know, insights.
>> Well, Zitron and the Financial Times got it. Both. So, they both independently >> slightly different interpretations, but yes.
>> Yeah.
>> But they're spending things on, I mean, they're tens of millions of dollars on things like um, uh, midterm campaigns.
They're spending money on odd things for companies that whose profitability >> because they see that government is willing to put its thumb on the scale on their behalf. So of course the best way to spend your money is on government.
>> We also had OpenAI employees started their own pack to counteract their CEO's pack.
>> Right.
Well, another way to spend money would be to give authors $1.5 billion. And that's exactly what Anthropic is going to do. The settlement has now been approved by the judge.
>> The lawyers got cut at the knees.
>> Oh, really?
>> Oh, yeah. They got cut way back.
>> Uh, authors opposing the settlement argued lawyers fees were too high.
Remember, that's what stalled it >> and the payouts were too low. Uh, it was going to be $3,000 per work. [snorts] Uh, the judge overruled objections to the settlement as lacking merit. She emphasized about 95% of the class received notifications. Approximately 91% of the authors and publishers impacted have already find filed claims.
I did not.
Uh >> I did, but I'll give >> Wow, you're so noble letting the companies keep that money. That'll really show them.
>> Well, no. I'm thrilled that they took my crappy old books and ingest them.
>> Only 350 class members opted out. That means I guess after they join the class, right? They don't know that I opted out because I never joined the class.
>> Well, no. If you opted out, that's probably one of what they're referring to.
>> I kept getting notices that I should join in for a book for which I wrote the forward. So, it wasn't my book.
>> Yeah. I never even did the search to find out if my books were in it. Can you still do that search? Is that still around? I >> think so.
>> How did you opt out if you didn't?
>> I didn't opt out. I just didn't opt out.
>> You just didn't. You just didn't.
>> No, you you have to opt out. I believe.
>> No, you mean I I might get money even without saying I uh I opt in.
>> Uh I had to fill in a form and stuff.
Okay.
>> Yeah, I think so. I remember in the big Pop Chip settlement case where Pop Chip was accused of something false advertising or something. I actually had to say, "No, I want some money." And I did in fact get a bag of Pop Chips for free. Wait, as a response to the settlement, they gave you more of the product involved in the settlement.
[laughter] >> It's it's it's my uh I consider that uh my uh my lesson in how all of the economics of class action lawsuits work.
You get all that in a bag of pop chips.
[laughter] Uh anthropic author search. Let me see if I can I can find it. Here's the settlement website. It's probably too late, right? Oh, here it is. Works list lookup.
Search by author.
Wait a minute. This is >> You got to click on the search by author.
>> Okay.
>> No. Yes.
>> Leo Laort.
That's me.
>> Oh.
>> Uh, one's my dad.
>> One's my dad. Lao E. Leaport.
>> Well, but yeah, you should file for your dad.
>> But but this one from Q Publishing. My 2006 gadget guy. Boy, they don't have my best books.
They only have two of my uh books. Not the best books.
>> Yeah, they only had two of mine.
>> Yeah. And then uh they should have really gotten all the other almanacs.
Those are much better for ingesting. And then a book I wrote a forward on with Micholan, the sauna guy, actually.
>> His name comes up twice in one show.
>> Wow.
>> I think we need a sauna show.
>> Oh man, I [clears throat] think I need a sauna.
>> We should record the sauna show in the sauna.
>> Yeah, exactly. You know what Paris I think we are uh somehow related because between drip pourover and sauna [snorts] >> there's no way that multiple that people in the US could love >> that's a unique intersection of interest um how's your pourover going by the way you you nailed it >> I've been a little uh off it lately cuz it's hot so I've been kind of cold brewing >> yeah cold brewing that's cool >> I have I have got my formula in fact I just got some new beans that I can't wait.
>> What beans did he get?
>> Uh I don't know. They're downstairs.
>> Oh, your ears.
>> Poor Jeff.
>> It's okay. It's okay.
>> He joined. We started a separate uh WhatsApp for coffee talk and he >> You haven't joined it, Paris, but he did.
>> I didn't know that there was a separate I don't I don't use WhatsApp, guys.
>> Oh, okay. We can use something else. We can use Signal or something.
>> I mean, it's fine. I just Send me the What's Send me the coffee chat one. I didn't know that existed.
>> I I sent you an invite, but that's okay.
>> Wait, let me let me Where are you?
>> You if you want, I can run down and get >> Oh, I see it. Oh, I see it now.
>> So, >> I was wondering why we have our group chat as a community rather than just a normal chat where I can get normal notifications.
>> Just the way it is, I guess. So, their beans are in the mailbag, mailbox. I I I've been looking for a good bean subscription. I decided based on uh references from uh Reddit, the pourover subreddit, which you're right, is a >> the pourover subreddit is where it is >> and and it will drive you crazy in a way that you didn't know was possible before.
>> I have now three different haros.
[laughter] >> I hope one of those is not I hope that you at least have a switch. I listen to you. Well, it's resin. What is that? I have one glass, one metal, one resin.
But everybody says the Neo. Everybody's saying, "Oh, the Neo, you got to get the Neo." And that's a resin one.
>> Uh, and I've got the Abico white filters cuz everybody said that. So now I have >> The Abico filters are significantly better. I will say, >> yes, I thought that, >> are you using uh ThirdWave water? I'm contemplating getting specific drops to put in my additives into their water.
>> Well, no. There's already additives in your water. is the thing is your water already has a mineral mix and it's like do you want to choose the mineral mix that you've got in your >> water. So what I do is I I uh I have a B it's like a brida but it's not. It's BWT. It's made for coffee filter. I told you this before. It filters the water and then adds magnesium adds two minerals. I think magnesium and zinc I think I can't remember what the second filter but it's for coffee. It was the coffee geek said, "Get this.
Matthew Prince, Mike Prince, Mark Prince, sorry, Mark Prince. There's many princes in the world, but that's the one.
>> Only a few kings." [laughter] >> I'm sorry. God, where are we? Um, two authors. Okay. Uh, yeah. The people who opted out were people who opted in at first but didn't want to participate because they felt like they weren't getting enough.
>> Yeah. They could still sue. Yeah, that's opt out.
>> That's the opt out. Uh, and anyway, so the rest are getting 3,000, Jeff. Is that how it works?
>> I think that's what it is per work. So I could have had 6,000 bucks.
>> Well, um, no, I actually think it's split with the publisher.
>> Uh, oh, and then of course the lawyers as well.
>> No, well, that's a separate. I think it's $3,000 per book >> after the lawyers.
>> Okay.
>> Which might be better than 3,000 now because the lawyer fee went way down.
>> I don't know if that story has it. And speaking of money, uh, so that's one and a half billion out. Let's keep a ledger.
Here's five billion in. AMD is committed to $5 billion for anthropic. Anthropical employ deploy up to 2 gawatt of AMD's AI GPUs. These are not CUDAores. These are not Nvidia chips. These are AMDs.
>> This is a circular investment, isn't it?
So AMD is paying anthropic to use AMD chips >> in their Yeah, I guess it is circular.
>> They're also going to do a multi-year engineering collaboration. I use AMD uh GPUs. I wish I could afford the Nvidia ones. And and now we're learning that the Nvidia uh new Nvidia data uh chips are very efficient. We're starting to see numbers from is it Vera Rubin?
That's the next one.
>> It's the next one after Ver Rubin, which won't be out for a couple years.
>> No, Ver Rubin is is is is production now. Yeah.
>> Okay. Is like onetenth the energy usage of current.
>> Yes.
>> That's been his argument in his in his Justin Wong's argument in his keynotes is that the way that you get more compute out is by lowering the energy cost.
>> Huge.
That that is a massive improvement. If that's the case, >> are they still making graphics cards for regular people?
>> No. If they did, you couldn't afford it.
>> I'm sure they I'm sure you could. Yeah, you can buy a 5090. You can make that.
>> What's the What's the That's the previous generation. Where's the next generation?
>> Like we're we're due. We were supposed to be due for that this year or next year.
>> Well, how many voxels do you need?
>> So the 5090 >> It's for you, too. It's AI. It's for you, too.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean you could a lot of people use 5090s, multiple 5090s for uh but they're $2,000 each and you know you'd have to have a motherboard that could keep them cool.
>> And you're talking about the top though.
You know, there's going to be the 6070 and stuff like that. Well, there should be if they're still making those.
>> So, what's SIG graph? Isn't that >> graphics? Special interest group for >> graphics. Well, Nvidia had a whole keynote just for SIG graph.
>> Huh. They still You know what? They're just hedging their bets.
They're saying, "Well, you know, maybe this AI thing won't really pan out." So, just in case, graphics professionals, you ought to be using ours as well.
>> Join Nvidia at SIGRAPH.
Was Jensen there? Cuz this is not Yeah, they didn't send the top guy notice.
>> But they're doing Well, one thing they're doing at SIGRAPH is physical AI.
>> Oh, and let's You know what? Let's not forget they're also doing video. I mean, they really are.
This is really AI. Uh oh, we're putting Paris to sleep. Okay, quick move along.
>> Oh, you're not putting me to sleep. I just haven't slept well.
>> Tell us the latest on explosive diarrhea.
>> We can't cannibalize my pick of the week. Guys, [laughter] >> okay, that's a tease. Coming up, explosive diarrhea next after this word from a sponsor. wishes they weren't [clears throat] [snorts] here right now. Okay. Are we Have we gone through all of the stories?
>> Can we play Can we Is it Does this video we can play Elon's uh version a historically accurate version of the myth of Odis of the Odyssey?
>> Is it just nothing because cameras back then?
>> He did it um with Grock. Grock.
>> Yes. So this is the scene.
>> I will return. [music] I left my one love. [snorts and clears throat] >> Yeah, it's just dreadful.
>> Why are they speaking in English if it's supposed to be historically accurate?
>> What's historically accurate?
>> There is no historic. This is all made up anyway.
>> Uh yeah.
>> Sea of my ships.
>> Oh yeah, there. Oh yeah, sure. Sirens.
Those are real.
>> Mhm.
>> Nine days a drift.
Now here >> I have a hood in my shirt.
>> Stranded.
>> And here she comes. Helen of Troy.
>> Something. Oh, this is >> She f him a potato chip.
>> Potato chips were really >> Yeah, it was a Pringle. I think it's a Pringle Pringles. It was a perfect potato chip. This is such crap. Oh, it's awful. Wait a minute, though. There's one line of dialogue that's killer.
>> Send him home.
>> This is awful.
>> Yeah. Not.
>> And by the way, does she look Greek? No, she's redhead. The whole complaint here is they have a black woman as >> it's also an orally it's a >> it's made up anyway >> years I have kept you here >> is this the line >> weep >> she's going to say spend one more night under my roof and he's going to say >> build your raft >> okay build your wrath >> be free >> be free Odysius >> no >> you mean some other thing not my passage >> way we can't watch any more of this >> it's almost over would have been It sticks itself.
>> Nicholas Cage.
>> I mean no harm to you.
>> Then at first light I cut the timber.
>> This is so god awful, >> isn't it?
>> Or stay.
>> Oh, lipstick's also a little bad.
>> Keep this house.
>> And every time they talk, it's you can hear >> the ageless >> in the background.
>> Yeah.
>> Is she worth all this grief?
Gro Gro thinks everything.
>> Grock thinks acting is is long pauses.
>> I am not less than whispering >> and still >> an emphasis every day. All I want is home.
My wife, my own halls.
>> Look at the tear.
>> Understand? [laughter] >> Here it comes. Here comes Oh, what's he doing?
>> I think you can. Is he picking her nose?
>> Did he boop her? [laughter] >> He pooped her.
>> Please just come out of the sun. One more night under my roof.
>> No. Yes. Okay. Okay. [laughter] >> Yeah. You know, the Greek said that a lot.
>> Was that not worth it?
>> Okay. One more night under my roof.
>> Okay. [laughter] Okay. Like Larry like Larry would be doing.
>> The funny thing is Percy goes, "No."
Okay, [laughter] Grock. You know what? Grock must have been trained on Elon.
>> Okay.
>> Uh, yeah.
>> Yeah, that's pretty hysterical that Elon would even post that as some sort of advertisement for Grock's ability to make >> Did Elon post that? I don't think >> Yeah, Elon Oh, no. Elon posted above that saying, >> "Oh, boy.
>> We're going to make a whole movie."
>> Oh, [groaning] >> historically accurate.
>> Oh, they did two hours of that. They're going to >> Oh, please. And it isn't historically accurate cuz there's no history up.
>> I remember >> historically accurate about gods and sirens.
>> We were uh we were traveling through the area and we uh decided to go on a trip to Troy where where Schlean discovered the city of Troy except maybe it's Troy.
We don't know. It's just some old ruins.
It could be Troy. But the Turks are no dummies. They built a giant wooden horse. So, you're really pretty sure it's got to be Troy until you look into it and like Schllean had no idea. They just made it up.
>> Uh, all right. All right.
>> Okay. Thank you. What about >> I'm glad we got that in.
>> It's really important.
>> It's about It's a cultural torture Paris moment we look forward to every episode.
>> Hey, at least it wasn't an advertisement.
[snorts] >> Could have been an ad. We could have watched an ad together [laughter] and we still could.
>> It's not over.
>> Are there any ads in the rundown, guys?
[clears throat] >> Or how about some Tik Toks?
>> Oh, I haven't done that in a while.
That's right. I've got to do that again, don't I?
>> We used to do Jeff's Tik Tok.
>> Here's breaking news. Uh, good news.
Government officials are now allowed to put Tik Tok on their smartphones. On their governmentissued smartphones.
>> Oh, good. Well, now it's American Tik Tok.
>> It's no longer a threat.
Thank God. But do you really think we should have government officials using their government phones to do Tik Toks?
>> My son might say yes.
>> Mhm.
>> There's a lot they should be doing.
>> I was thinking about >> Yeah, that's true. Maybe better if they did Tik Toks instead of some of those other things. Netflix says uh generative AI was used, he probably shouldn't say this out loud, in 300 different titles.
I was sitting >> saying try to stop me.
>> I was sitting with Michael, our 22-year-old last night and he said, "I am never going to play a video game with any AI in it."
>> To which Lisa said, "How will you know?"
[laughter] >> And sorry to sorry to always tell.
>> No, there's been AI in video games for a very long time now.
>> I know you can't tell.
You can only tell if it gets good because uh you know I was I used to be a warrior like you, but then I got an arrow through the knee. You only can hear that a few hundred times before you start to wonder could they come up with something better. Ted Sarendo says uh we believe it's going to enhance their abilities.
For instance, the American Experiment, which is a docu series. I actually hate these kinds of documentaries where they kind of fake >> the scenes >> and YouTube is filled with them now.
>> Yeah, I hate them. Well, 17 minutes of AI enhanced footage and I think the AI enhanced his hair.
>> Do you think really that was his hair?
Do you think he really had hair like that?
>> Now >> everybody else is wearing a nice wig and he's a Show this show this screenshot from Netflix. I'm not going to run anything. Do you think that really was the hair? I think AI had something to do with that one.
>> I mean, that could just be a wig.
>> A bad a bad wig. It's a fro. A founding father fro. [laughter] >> There's Ben Franklin. That's how Ben looked, right? Sort of. [snorts] >> I don't know. Founding Fro.
Uh, all right. Pick some stories and then we'll do a break. And um >> it was a weird week. There were huge stories. Huge. huge stories and then then it kind of fell off. There wasn't a lot else.
>> I'll pick a story which is that uh there was one of the bellweather lawsuits against Meta in the social media addiction cases was dropped.
>> But um here, let me read it. So, a 15-year-old Florida teenager who accused Meta of creating addictive and harmful social media features dropped his Bellweather lawsuit against the company on Wednesday. It was one of nine major social media addiction cases that could expose Meta and all these other companies to uh financial damages.
However, >> by the way, financial damages, which Meta estimated could total 14 trillion dollars.
>> Yep. Uh the lawyer representing the teen said he dropped the lawsuit because he was satisfied with the settlements he'd received.
>> And had concerns about quote enduring a grueling weeks long trial. And the lawyer said they're proud of what this case helped accomplish. Of course, then Meta says, "The claims never held up."
And this outcome makes clear that we will not back away from defending oursel against baseless lawsuits. Which is a little bit of a weird thing to say when it seems like the reason that it was dropped is because of settlement.
>> Well, that's what Elon's strategy is with Tesla lawsuits. If you can keep it out of court, it's always better for everybody.
I mean there doesn't add up to 14 trillion.
>> It's interesting to do this in one of the bell weathers though because kind of the point of this is to figure out >> like how much potential financial like exposure these companies have and are they going to have to settle a bunch of them to have your second I think big or at least high-profile. Yeah, this is the second of these nine bellweathers. Have it be well I guess we'll just settle.
Um, >> remember they that uh uh Snapchat and Tik Tok settled >> the LA case, that big LA case. It's before it went to court. I mean, I think that's kind of the safest thing to do.
>> Well, the problem is that the the complaint >> Tik Tok YouTube had all settled before Meta. So, this kid got some money, I'm sure. Go ahead.
>> Yeah. And what does he care what does the kid care about being a bellweather?
>> He a life-changing amount of money.
Yeah.
So he he's 15. He said that Meta created addictive and harmful social media features.
>> What What was the the the consequence to him? What was the harm?
>> I'm I'm just messed up. Let's figure it out. I'm so messed up.
>> Doesn't say on the New York Times story.
>> All right, that's fine. That's fine. I'm glad he got his payday.
>> Uh and I think it's almost always better to settle. Often with a settlement, you don't have to admit wrongdoing. You just say, "We just want out."
>> He could have taken them down.
[snorts] >> Maybe he didn't want to take >> 14 trillion. That'll break anybody.
>> Have you ever been in a lawsuit? It is a nightmare for everybody involved.
>> Take one for the team, homie. I think part of the allegation is that uh the kid who goes by his initials RKC um basically alleges that he was addicted to these platforms since he was eight. It was against uh Meta, Google, Bite Dance and Snap that the platforms addictive designs caused him severe sleep deprivation, anxiety and depression.
>> I was doom scrolling all night.
>> I could sue them. I have I I you know what? I have to force myself not to pick up my phone at 4 in the morning every morning.
>> Well, maybe you should then. Seems to have worked out well for him. [laughter] [snorts] >> I became a podcaster because of these people. Look what it's done to my life.
Ladies and gentlemen, you are watching uh and listening to Intelligent Machines, Paris Martino and Jeff Jarvis.
Coming up, our picks of the week. But before we do that, I just want to remind you that this show exists thanks to the generosity of our club members. Club Twit is the best way you can support everything we do. I just asked Lisa um earlier today how much of what we do is supported by club members. She said 35% of our operating expenses come from the club. It's a big chunk and getting bigger.
Uh we would have to we'd have to cut way back. Now maybe some of you think that's a good idea. And if that's the case, you don't have to join the club. You could actually not join the club and help take us down. But if you love what you're getting, if you value it, we'd like to get you in the club. It's 10 bucks a month. You get adree versions of all of our shows, including uh chapter markers in those adree versions, so you can skip around, skip all the AI stuff in this show, for instance. Uh you also get access to the wonderful hangout called Club Twit Discord. You also get uh what else do you get? You get uh all the special programming we do just for the club. In fact, we are going to do another AI user group. We're going to call it uh token maxing time [laughter] this Friday, 2:00 p.m. Pacific. Uh people are going to come. there. We're going to just sit around and you know how you have playalong where people play a game and you watch you're we're going to have uh token along where you can just sit there and watch us to um >> but not to like you might expect.
>> No, it's to it's token time. It's a let's >> sober token.
>> Sober token.
>> Nerd token.
>> 2 p.m. uh Pacific 5:00 p.m. Eastern.
Darren Oki says he'll be there. I'll be there. Anthony Nielson will be there. um we can show what we're doing and uh and and you can work along with us. Time to toque. Uh this is part of the fun of being a member. So twit.tv/club2.
Please uh join the club. We would love to have you. Can I mention one other story?
>> Oh, now you do it. Yes, sure.
>> Line 103. Google is building a chip with Gemini baked into it.
>> That's interesting.
>> It is.
presumption is that it'll be more efficient.
It'll never be up to >> I have a dumb question, but how how do you bake Gemini into a chip?
>> I can't answer that.
>> Maybe it's not that dumb of a question since no one can answer >> the project informally called Frozen V2.
And by the way, information had the scoop.
um it's going to be very efficient obviously if the if the AI is running in microode you know I don't so even the smallest models are are many gigabytes is it going to it's unclear is it an ASIC uh yeah the frozen name comes from the idea of permanently etching part of the model into the silicon the hardware locks to the shape of Google's current AI design engineers can still refresh the model by loading new weights but the underlying structure stays fixed or frozen.
How much of the model gets hardwired is reportedly still being decided.
>> Yeah, >> the payoff is efficiency. The information reports the chip could be six to 10 times more efficient than Google's latest custom I chips.
>> So, it's not I don't if it's not in ROM.
It sounds like it's a custom uh BLSI.
>> It's in the instruction set.
>> Yeah, I don't Well, it's I don't know.
>> I don't know. I found that interesting.
That's all.
There is another company Talis from Canada which does in fact hardwire specific AI models into chips. They've raised $200 million.
Uh so this is not a completely new idea.
Yeah, it's a it's intriguing. You know, I think that this is uh the opportunity right now for a lot of these companies is not to build a bigger and bigger and bigger model. fables. It was Navy Jones who said this 10 terabytes, but to find out ways to make it more efficient, to find out ways to make it runnable locally, all there's all sorts of areas that you could improve on without simply scaling. And since scaling is the right now the most expensive thing to do, >> uh, actually, I'm going to show you my pick of the week.
>> It's physical object.
>> He's left the chair, folks.
>> Left the chair. Elvis has left the chair because this came in the mail yesterday.
And uh I want to thank uh Douglas who is a club member. Hi Douglas. He says a longtime listener club member. Uh he uh is retired but he keeps himself busy repairing and selling um old Mac laptops which is cool. Uh his specialty is the 2011A 1297in 2.5 GHz which I clean up.
Make sure the graphics are working.
upgrade to 16 gigs RAM, put in a two TB SSD. He says there's still a pretty good market for them because they're repairable, upgradeable, and have plenty of ports. He heard us listen, he was listening to the show on June 23rd, and there was a conversation uh about you having an issue with the available availability and expensive RAM. So, what did he send me?
A box of old RAM. [laughter] >> Hey, there is so much RAM in here. It's This is Rama Palooa. Unfortunately, none of it none of it is uh good enough to put in any of the machines I use, but he apparently had some extras. And it it continues a long-standing tradition.
It's hysterical tradition of sending Leo your old crap.
[laughter] Um and I'm not sure why, but he did. So, um I don't know. Anybody wants some megabytes? I mean, there's megabytes of RAM.
>> Is there one one gig of RAM in that box?
That [laughter] whole box is one gig.
>> That's a good That's a good question.
The modules are mostly the same. Let me see uh what the size of these.
I can't I can't really uh It's such fine print, I don't think I can read it. Um it's made in China, so that's good news.
>> It's all wrapped laptop RAM, too, right?
>> Yeah, it looks like it. It's not so dims. This is Samsung.
Uh oh, wait a minute. Hold on there.
This is 2 gigabytes uh PC3 one RX8 PC3 from uh I don't know.
It looks like uh I don't know what I don't know anything more about it. But if that's 2 gigabytes, man, maybe I can do something with this.
I'm sure the throughput's terrible.
>> Yeah, like DDR2 or something.
>> Yeah, but wow, he sent me a lot of it. I mean, if each of these is 2 gigabytes, I got terabytes of RAM here. I'm set for life. Thank you, Douglas.
I don't want to encourage people to send me their old crap. [laughter] When we were in the brick house, you know, we had 10,000 square ft.
>> How are people getting your address?
>> That's Well, that's another good. He said it's the post office box.
>> Okay, that's more acceptable.
>> Yeah. Um Jeff Atwood sent me this hyper cube. He keeps >> I was gonna say where is the hyper cube from? It's so cool.
>> You like that?
>> I like the cube.
>> It's also It's got three settings. One is it responds to sound. So if I It could be like a little disco in here.
>> Should I get a hyper cube?
>> Yeah. You want to see it up close?
>> Yeah. It's me.
>> Are those new dials behind you in that complex there?
>> It's a Oh, I see.
>> Great. Grace.
>> What's that? What's that below your right behind you? Have you always been that >> sauna hat, Leo? Beh move a little bit to the right.
What's that down below you? The dials.
>> Oh, >> has that been there?
>> Yeah.
>> I'd never seen that before.
>> Yeah. Take down the lower thirds, Bonita, so they can uh they can see this. That is a uh So, I uh in December, actually, I'm glad you asked this. In December, I will celebrate 50 years in broadcasting. I started it in December 1976, the bsentennial.
And uh that little doohickey. This was the first >> mixer I ever used. It's a Gates stereo statesman. It was at the the college radio station I used. And >> did you steal it from the radio station?
>> No, this is a this is uh not the same exact one, but it's it's the same model.
It's the same. It feels very familiar. I got very good at turning the microphone on and turning up the pot at the same time. These are these are all analog uh potentiometers dials and uh so yeah, that's a memory for me because that's how I started.
>> So you're saying that in December you'll be celebrating 50 years of podcasting.
December, a month that ends with uh a celebration called New Year's >> do some sort of no >> 24hour live. It's an excuse for you to get the sauna, Leo.
>> It could be a celebration.
>> We could do the whole thing. 24 hours in a sauna.
>> We could have one of the hours being the apple dolls. [laughter] >> All right. All right. Paris still wants >> podcasting. 24 hours of >> 50 years of broadcasting.
>> 50 years of broadcasting came a lot later.
>> 24 hours of podcasting. [laughter] >> It goes together.
They said Paris is working on a whole other be asking for 50 hours.
>> Paris, your pick of the week. [snorts] >> My pick of the week is the only thing I've been thinking about this last week.
>> Cycllospora.
>> Cyclpora parasite.
>> Is it true?
Is it true that the uh federal government decided to stop testing for cycllospora at one point and that's one of the contributing factors?
>> No, that's kind of it's like a misnomer.
What people are talking about when they refer to that is there's a program called Food Net that's part of the CDC that is involved in kind of like long-term like surveillance and as part of CDC budget cuts recently they stopped monitoring six out of the eight >> uh pathogens or other things they were monitoring one of which was cycllospora.
That's obviously not good for a lot of reasons, but that is better surveillance system that can't prevent outbreaks and let relevant for this >> and you can kind of tell when cycllospora hits a community.
>> Well, it's also like that that was that program only monitor kind of a fraction of the US. It's very useful for a lot of things. It's not necessarily the most directly useful in this situation that we're seeing now, which is that we're seeing like a massive surge of cases in kind of a handful of states.
>> Sorry, we're seeing, you know, uh, a lot of cases in a handful of states and a lot more than we normally see during this season. And >> is it all from Taylor Farms >> or do we know?
>> We don't So on Friday uh over into Saturday, Taylor Farms announced that it was recalling all iceberg lettuce from Mexico that it shipped to the US.
>> Oh, it's the Mexicans, of course.
>> Well, there cycllos borrower for a long time was thought to be endemic to Mexico and a couple of other regions in there.
Now we know that it can also live in the US and things like that.
>> It comes it comes from night soil, right? I mean there was a long time in Mexico when you went to Mexico you'd have to be very careful about what they call monzumas or zens because they use night soil aka poop to fertilize >> uh their their crops and if you aren't immune to it if you haven't been exposed to it and developed antigens for it uh you would get sick but I but they stopped doing that a long time ago >> I was going to say I'm not sure that's direct it part of how um the cycllospora parasite is transmitted is sorry if you're eating maybe don't listen to this but it's when um feces from an infected person is uh spread onto a crop in some way either through like waste water or maybe a manure situation >> or veomite >> maybe and then that has to sit out there for like a week to two weeks because it's not just like >> the contaminated feces if you touch it you get it >> it takes a week or two weeks in hot part of the problem weather for it to get infectious again. And so then once that happens, it could be infectious generally and maybe say the crop is harvested and if it's iceberg lettuce, it's then chopped up, mixed in with a bunch of stuff, sent a bunch of other places and it gets very very close.
>> So it's not like one person with dirty hands does this.
>> No, not really.
>> The [snorts] other problem is if you get infected, you will not necessarily show symptoms for quite some time, right?
>> Yeah. It could be like two weeks and that makes it even more Because the first the basically a lot of these infections or outbreaks, we don't figure out exactly what caused it cuz that's kind of complicated to track down in food is perishable. And part of the way you get to even testing products is you have to ask people who've then, you know, a subset of people who've gotten sick, reported the infection to their doctor maybe to get treatment, then had that infection reported to a health agency. You ask those people sometimes a couple of weeks after they got sick, which is a couple of more weeks since they uh ingested the food with the parasite in it, what did you eat? And if that's even remotely accurate, then investigators go try to go through like all of these people's food history and figure out what could be a potential source. One of the things they've identified so far is there seems to be at the very least a cluster of uh cases like a multi-state large like outbreak related to iceberg lettuce. Um, and so as part of this, Taylor Farms initiated a recall, but it got really confusing over the weekend for a lot of people because shortly after Taylor Farms issues this recall, the FDA then posted an announcement being like, "Hey, just letting you guys know, we tested, we intercepted a shipment of totally different Taylor Farms lettuce, not part of the recall at the border. Tested that. We found cycllosphora." That was big news cuz everyone thought, "Oh, recall is going to expand." Then 24 hours later, the FDA is like, "Sych, actually sorry, that was a false positive." But a lot of people didn't grock, sorry to use the word that is now synonymous with the a lot of people didn't understand that the lettuce they tested that was now a false positive wasn't the recalled lettuce. So they immediately interpreted that to mean oh Taylor Farm's innocent all a big misunderstanding which is not the case according to the FDA. They said there's still strong epidemiological evidence linked >> and that was the epidemiological evidence was the basis of the original recall. Paris >> not testing.
>> Well, all we know for sure is that epidemiological evidence has linked it.
We don't know for certain that the Taylor Farms lettuce that is part of the recall has been tested by the FDA and those tests have been negative. At some point during all of this, Taylor Farms issued a statement on Instagram that said something to the effect of is they said, "The FDA has apologized to us and no Taylor Farms lettuce has tested positive for cyclist." The FDA has been unable to provide a positive test uh linking our stuff to but that statement has been totally taken down because the FDA then a couple of days later was like, "We did not apologize to Taylor Farms." And I know Consumer Reports is above the fray, but I will tell you that Taylor Farms CEO is a big donor to the Trump campaign and that Taylor Farms met >> with Trump >> days. Well, they met with the White House.
>> The White House. Okay. Days before the FDA backed tracked. So that is further, if you'll forgive a necessarily know whether to trust certain institutions these days.
>> That's the problem. We can't we don't feel like we trust our institutions. I came into our our WhatsApp and I'm honored that Paris responded to me because she doesn't see the WhatsApp enough. Uh just asking like, you know, can I can I eat lettuce now? Uh what do I do? I trust the FDA now.
>> I like to live dangerously and I've been eating lettuce ever since.
>> Well, I mean, >> by the way, one of our club members says he got it and it was not nice.
>> No, it's a very pairing experience. I mean, the >> is it worse than norirus? I mean is it it's like >> I mean I don't know about the direct comparison to neurovirus but >> that's also a gastro >> I understand that it is so bad that you have to basically for a lot of people getting the very specific antibiotic is the only way to kind of stay hydrated and >> it's a bacterial so it's antibiotics will work it's not a parasite it's a >> it's a parasite but there's like a very specific treatment that >> dehydration is obviously the great risk if it goes on for a long time.
>> Yeah, I always keep Pedialyte in the pantry. You never know.
>> So, it's Bactrum. That's pretty common.
>> Yeah, I believe that's the name of it.
Yeah, Bactrum is the >> Ella Dutderino says the bathroom was booked for weeks, but [snorts] he says, "I think I got it from organic girl spinach." It's completely possible. We just don't know that it comes from more than one place. It's really interesting right now because we have every year the US sees a rise in cycllospora infections in the summer because like I said it's got to be kind of hot and wet for that uh sort of thing to grow. It's something that a lot of people get. I think in the last couple of years um between 2013 >> and uh 2016 and 2023 the average number of annual infections in the US was like 2,800ish. So there's like low-level thousands. Now, currently the the latest count from the CDC, which is almost certainly an undercount, is like 11,000.
Most of those cases are coming from a cluster kind of near Michigan that investigators say seem to be linked to lettuce, but there are quite a few other states that are experiencing kind of higher than usual numbers and they it is unclear whether it's linked to lettuce or something else. So there could just be like that case we just talked about with the club member. It could just be uh one of the usual kind of upticks in infections which is unfortunate but happens. It could be lettuce related. It could be a different outbreak related incident that we haven't identified the source yet.
>> Food related u outbreaks are actually >> not uncommon and uh it's amazing really that our food supplies is safe as it is I think um cuz we don't have enough inspectors. Paris, does this job make you more weirded out about consuming?
>> I feel like a crazy person shopping for food now.
>> I What do you do now? How's that?
>> My good friend who was a master of public health, he was at the Oregon State Public Health Department for years, college roommate.
I you'd go to his house for Thanksgiving and he wouldn't even handle the turkey after cooking. He used rubber gloves. He was so weirded out. He has quite famously the outbreak museum. A museum of famous.
>> I gotta go there. That's >> food outbreaks. Yeah. I said this is a new museum for you, Paris.
>> So, what's changed in your habits, Paris?
>> I mean, a [clears throat] lot of things have changed my habits. I'm I I used to walk to the grocery store with not a care in the world, not really thinking about where my food came from, what the ingredients were, and I don't do any of that anymore. I think a lot about all of my decisions in a way that's, I don't know, somewhat [clears throat] maddening.
>> [snorts] >> Um, in in CA in the case of this though, kind of what one of the things that uh kept me working for hours over the weekend is that the recall notice that Taylor Farms posted is really sparse on details. Like normally whenever you cover or like write up a recall notice for a foodborne illness outbreak, as I now have done a lot over the last year, they list like what are the products being recalled? Where were they sold? We don't really have that. Instead, Taylor Farms listed a bunch of like abbreviations that kind of you basically had to like guess based on what letters you thought are associated with what companies and it was just a bit of a nightmare. I was able to confirm that the products >> the recalled lettuce went to Walmart stores uh was served at Jack in the Box locations and distributed to Cisco which means it could go anywhere. There's also like five every restaurant in the country, >> you know, food dist. So, Taylor Farm said that this lettuce was distributed by it to 27 states, but we don't know whether once it went to those places, it was distributed elsewhere. So, kind of what our food safety experts are recommending is if you are in one of these 27 states where the lettuce, recalled lettuce ends up, discard any iceberg lettuce you have, avoid it till we know more. If you're outside of there, the advice I've been giving people I know personally because all of this is kind of a personal risk calculation is like look at your own state where you live are they seeing unusually high like higher than average cases of cyclist porasis? If so, that might be a sign that you want to take some caution iceberg >> east of the Mississippi. Like for instance, California officials, like with you saying that, Leo, like California officials have been like, "Yeah, we've got >> not as many cases this year as we saw last year." So, we seem to be unimpacted.
>> 41 states doesn't leave many out.
>> No, >> I know.
>> I will point you to the International Outbreak Museum, which is at outbreak museum uh.com.
They uh they have all sorts You I think you'd enjoy this, Paris. All sorts of features, exhibits like this. 2014 Florida Staflac caucus uh outbreak at a holiday buffet. This is this is my old college roommate Bill Keane.
>> No, I know. But physically is this >> it's an Oregon. It's an Oregon.
>> Maybe I wish I had known about this.
>> Yeah, they have many exhibits like the famous Wilson leather spray exhibit or the Jack in the Box E. coli or the venison jerky. He investig This was his he was the most famous investigator of food born outbreaks in America. I think it's a business.
>> How did I not know this when I was in Portland? This >> Oh my god, you missed out. You missed out on on the diaper changing sation norovirus, the Pennsylvania raw milk uh camp, the Campella Backdrop Junai breakout, the lististerious soft cheese breakout. Unfortunately, it ends in 2016 when Bill ended, but uh yeah, he passed away uh not of an food born illness, I might add. Uh but this was his office.
He had all of this in his office.
Uh he was very he was a wild man.
[laughter] Uh so yeah, I I guess I I guess uh that's another connection we have uh besides saunas and uh pourover coffee is foodborne uh illness. He I he sold t-shirts. His most famous one had a fry fry cook on the front was him with his beard uh you know holding the spatula saying how do you want your eggs today?
And in the back it had all these parasite egg.
>> That would be great to mix with my flaming rat t-shirt from the American Museum of Tort Law.
>> There you go. There you go. They should bring it all back. Uh Jeff pick of the week.
All right. So last week we were discussing JSON Wong's jacket. And in the meantime, one sold at auction.
>> Oh, these are the beautiful leather jackets.
>> Very beautiful. Designed by Tom Ford.
Uh, one sold at auction for $960,000.
>> WHAT?
>> It was intended to be The estimate was 60,000. It was a charity event.
>> Oh, okay.
>> But there were 45 collectors bid on the jacket and it sold for $960,000.
>> He doesn't wear the same one twice, though, right? I mean, there's a >> Well, I think he might more than more than one, but there are many. Yes.
>> Every every every keynote he has a different one.
>> Some are like so many leather jackets.
That's actually really price on these is not cheap. It ain't >> in the middle of August. He's wearing the leather jacket cuz it is his trademark.
>> Yeah, he's it's his black journal name.
>> So, the other one was a story that has nothing to do with AI, but amused me. I giggled about this Wall Street Journal.
Rarely do I giggle at the Wall Street Journal. Everyone gets lost at the Pitball concert.
Pitball is a um singer who is bald and so everybody who goes to the Pitbull concert wears bald caps and sunglasses.
And when people go off the same >> and come back. They can't find their friends because all their friends look the same.
>> Okay.
>> I love this. This is a great version of the um Wall Street Journal's A-head.
>> Yeah. Uh wow. And they that it's not just a bald head in the glasses. White shirts, black ties. Yep. There's [laughter] a there's a look.
>> It's so great, >> isn't it?
[gasps] Uh it's too bad it's pitbull, but okay. You know, I guess. Are you a pitbull fan? He is from Florida.
>> No, I just, you know, >> you start walking off with the wrong pit.
>> At the London show, he and other and over 200 22,000 attendees set the world the Guinness World Record for the largest gathering of people wearing bald caps.
>> Wow.
>> I'm walking and I'm like, "Oh, I'm with Denise." And no, I'm not. I'm with Dave.
I don't know Dave.
Uh I have uh my it's not a pick but I do want to end the show with a mention that my dear friend the guy who started me in this business uh uh I was a broadcaster but I wasn't known for my technology expertise even though behind the scenes I was writing articles for computer magazines and playing with this stuff.
Uh it was in 1992 that I started doing a radio show with John C. D'vorak who at the time was the most prolific computer columnist in the world. wrote many, many columns, most famously the inside track column for PC magazine. Uh we learned just a few hours ago that John passed away Monday at the age of 80. He had a heart attack in March. Uh and uh according to Scott Mace, who was also a longtime computer journalist, a friend posted this on our Twitter forums. Uh Scott says he succumbed to complications following that double bypass surgery he got back in the spring. There is Scott with John.
And of course, if you want to post here your memories of John, you can. There's been some beautiful uh pictures. Um and uh I wasn't at first convinced, but I did go to the No Agenda website. That's the podcast he did with Adam Curry uh and uh confirmed this in their chat room. And then I saw the newsletter which came out just a little bit ago passing. He was uh a character is a >> How did you start with him until till they were >> So I was a a talk show host on KN&BR in San Francisco station. I'm sure you know Jeff >> and uh it was it was an NBC uh station.
It was a very famous uh radio station. I was doing the middays and every once in a while I'd have John on to talk about computers cuz I was into it. This was in the late 80s when it was still pretty uh new. And uh at one point about 1991, the program director came to me and said, "Well, I got some bad news for you, Leo.
Uh there's this upand cominging talk show host out of Sacramento, uh we're going to replace your show with his."
His name is Rush Limbbo.
Uh I wasn't too happy about it, but he said, "We're not going to fire you.
We're just going to put you on the weekends, and you will do 10 hours of programming every Saturday and Sunday."
>> Jeez.
>> In two-hour chunks. It'll be >> No wonder you can do what you do to this.
>> It will be food and wine. It'll be home improvement, it'll be cars, it will be real estate. I mean, literally, there were it was every subject. And uh I was announcer boy on those shows, you know.
So, they'd have an expert come in and I would read the commercials and ask the questions and we'd take calls. And I said, "Well, I'll be glad to do that, but can I just I love computers and this friend of mine, John, is great. He's been >> We are in San Francisco." The guy says, "Lo, nobody cares about computers." just please, you know, this is just as a >> this Rush Limbbo has taken my job just for for me. So, they let me do two hours every Saturday with John. We got to know each other. And John, to his credit, did not treat me like an answer boy. He realized fairly quickly I did know a little bit about technology. Let me start answering questions with him. We later syndicated the show as as D'vorak on computers. Uh we stayed good friends.
In fact, he was one of the first people on our podcast network. He was on many many Twitch shows. Uh, and we always enjoyed having him on, even though he always got up into trouble. He would steal gaffer's tape from the studio.
Once he found out how valuable it was, he would take every time he would take a roll of gaffer tape. He always take mugs from our cupboard. Um, I I I always invited him back, but at some point, you know, we kind of had a parting of the ways. Uh, he kind of got into right-wing conspiracy theories, but more was that he started asking $5,000 an episode. and and I couldn't really afford that. So, uh, we stopped having him on maybe 10, 15 years ago. He didn't stop podcasting.
Um, he worked with me at Tech TV. He's host of the Silicon Spin show, which was a very much like our Twitch show, a news round table. Then took that, uh, to the internet with Cranky Geeks, which I know a lot of you watched and loved. He was the original Cranky Geek. Cranky was >> partnered up with Adam Curry, former MTV VJ and early podcasted here. In fact, he is credited a little bit with inventing.
>> He and Dave Winer with Dave Winer. He went to Dave and said, "You know, if you just would give us in your RSS feed because Dave invented RSS. If you just do a an audio enclosure in there, I could I could put shows in there." Dave did it. U actually wrote the first podcast app. Uh anyway, he and Adam worked together at MVIO, which it was a podcast company that Adam started. uh took over Cranky Geeks and eventually he and Adam for many years have been doing a show called No Agenda which was kind of a crank conspiracy show. Uh they used to call um Adam was a Crackpot. What do they call him? It was crackpot and uh oh they had nicknames I've forgotten for each other. The chat room will tell me.
Um but [clears throat] uh >> what I remember about about John from from his show >> Crackpot and Buzzkill. Yeah. Uh, John never had spam.
>> I get no spam was his famous line.
>> Yep.
>> Uh, his other line was, you'll find out more at devoract.org/blog.
He never passed up a chance to plug his blog.
>> Uh, I love John. He was just a character, a a wild man, very funny. He used to come and say, "Oh, you got the new iPhone. Let me take a look at that."
And he would change the language to Chinese and give it back. Uh, [laughter] which is a good prank because it's if you don't know Chinese, pretty hard to find the settings to change the language back. [laughter] >> Took me It took me a while >> before Google Translate.
>> Yeah. Yeah. No, we didn't have it back in the day. John, uh, we will miss you uh, dearly. I, uh, I, I have a handful of, uh, recordings uh, of John that I, you know, saved from, uh, his appearances on the show. I'll play I'll play a couple for you just for those of you who don't know John just so you can kind of hear what what he sounds like because he had a pretty distinctive uh sound. He had a he was the original the one and only cranky geek, right? Uh this is one that I played earlier on Windows Weekly.
>> The search engine needs work.
>> Congratulations anyway. I'm glad you got a job.
>> Yeah, I needed one. You know, we at the deli we got to get going. the deli.
>> I'm going to sleep at this point. I mean, >> what are you going to sell?
>> What do you have? Like 14 columns.
Cranky geeks. You You participate in >> I got time on my hands. Believe it.
>> I'm a columnist soant. The columns don't take that long to do.
>> Columnist savant. I like it. Yeah. A lot of people would make something else savant, but that's another story.
[laughter] >> All right. Well, anyway, I don't know what it means, but >> and I have to say that now I can say for a fact that my >> Oh, let me play this for this. I have to say that I have to say that now I can my pulled or chopped pork is as good as anything in North Carolina.
>> Really?
>> Absolutely.
This for years and I finally got the whole formula down where I can make it.
It's just a stunner.
>> Now you said pulled or chopped. Which is it?
>> Well, you can it depends. You can take the way I make it with with shoulder is that you can take and mash it up with a fork and it becomes kind of pulled. It has it it's got a stringer quality. Or you can take the whole thing and then chop it and it it has a slightly different more chunky quality. But essentially the difference is minor. The North Carolina North Carolinians they like to chop it and the Georgians when they make this type of pork they like to pull it but in fact it's going to match.
>> He was going to write a book about how he makes his own vinegar. [laughter] >> He was uh he was working on a multi-olume history of the Civil War. He was really smart, great writer and a very odd person. But his trademark was being kind of the the opposite guy, right? The the naysayer. I learned from him. You can really rarely, especially in technology, rarely go wrong by saying a new technology is crap like this. It doesn't make any sense to me that Macintoshes of all I think it's the actual hardware. I think there's something shoddy about Macintosh uh laptops. [laughter] What >> you you when you're apple baiting isn't great.
>> Ladies and gentlemen, you're hearing John C. D'vorak in his prime.
>> This [laughter] is bull. I'm not trying to put down Apple. I was playing with one of these. It's nothing laptops. It has a shoddy quality like the push down buttons and stuff. They're like offset.
They're kind of crooked.
>> He wasn't wrong about the keyboard. The [laughter] butterfly keyboard. He's >> No, no. This is way beyond that.
>> I I know. I'm just saying, you know, if you take a long enough world, >> he often said the mouse will never take off. Nobody wants to use a mouse. Um, he actually respect that.
>> The first colorful Apple laptop, he says it looks like a toilet seat. He was great. No, I will miss him terribly. Uh, we're sorry to >> John C. D'Vorak, >> uh, at the age of 80, RIP. Uh, and if you are a No Agenda listener, or even if you're not, no agenda.com will do a tribute to John tomorrow. I'm not sure I have the highest hopes. Adam is kind of notoriously um, uh, uncomfortable with this kind of thing, but we'll see. We'll see what happens. Uh, and, uh, we will, of course, talk more about John on Twitter on Sunday. I'm going to try to get some people who know John uh, as as well or better than I do on on the show. Thank you everybody for joining us. We appreciate your patronage. We do this show every Wednesday right after Windows Weekly, 2:00 p.m. Pacific, 5:00 p.m.
Eastern. That's 2100. You can UTC. You can find us uh if you want to watch live, you can uh on YouTube, Twitch X, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Kick. Of course, club members, they they get special treatment. They get to watch in the club Twit Discord. After the fact, on demand versions of the show available at the website, twit.tv/ TV/im uh or you can uh go to YouTube. There's a video uh link there for all of our shows. Great way to share shows with you. And uh best way to get it, of course, with all our shows, subscribe in your favorite podcast client. Um it's easy enough to do. It's free and you'll get it automatically the minute it's done, audio or video. Next week, uh, we're joined by, tell us who Henry Blahett is, Jeff Jarvis.
Henry Baris, you might be able to tell him, too. So, Henry Blahett's an amazing character. He was, uh, a financial analyst who was, what was he convicted of, Ferris, do you remember?
>> Securities fraud.
>> Securities fraud. Yeah.
>> Oh, that.
>> Uh, and then remade himself as a That's not Henry.
>> Oh, that's the link I had. It sure doesn't look like it, does it? uh he made himself he looks a journalist and he started business insider and uh under Henry Business Insider was a tremendous success. It it was the original aggregator along with Huffington Post uh and um frankly you could go it was more than more than Google was in the day.
You could go to business insider and they already had all the headlines you wanted from all around. They rewrote everybody pissed off everybody but it was terribly convenient. Then they tried to make special content. Then they got bought by Ashel Springer and they tried to do payw walls and they got too big for their britches and they become insider and all that uh >> and they became insider and they moved back to being business insider and now they're run by a former Wall Street Journal head honcho and now they're trying to not do aggregation and I think they had a recent report that 80% of their stories are non-aggregated but that Henry but Henry Blanch's uninvolved with the rest of that >> now so he's left and now he we try to had him on some months ago uh because he was using AI to write newsletters or some sort of thing and now he has somehow a novel involved with Henry and Henry's just a character.
>> He has a newsletter called Regenerator on on Substack >> and doesn't he it's a comp at some point he wrote a blog at regenerator being like it's a company of one me and a bunch of agents.
>> Yeah. Yep. Yep. So I figured he's a character. Uh this is obnoxious but uh I would always see Henry and Davos. Uh he knew all >> he's the sort of person you would see at >> D. Exactly. Exactly. But he's uh uh he's a nice guy.
>> So we will talk AI with Henry Blahett.
That'll be fun next week.
>> Who knows what comes out of it. We have no idea.
>> You'll find Paris Martino and her great pieces on diarrhea and more. [laughter] Consumer Reports her website paris.nyc.
>> Paris explodes the news. I feel like you picked a good time to go to Consumer Reports and write about food safety.
>> Like you really could have picked a better time.
>> It's my uh oneyear anniversary this week.
>> Congratulations.
>> It has been a good year.
>> Yeah, that's Yeah, no kidding. A good year for food poisoning. Yeah.
>> Is there anything you won't buy now?
>> I think Little Debbie No, Hostess uh donuts are probably right up.
>> Not that she bought them anyway before that.
>> I mean, yeah. I mean, protein powder, I guess, or >> Yeah. Okay. So, >> but I mean, I just get my protein from other places. Everything with food is a personal decision. I don't want to give any prescriptions for folks, but >> I probably not I'm not buying iceberg lettuce right now. [laughter] >> Is [snorts] Roma okay?
>> I mean, all of this is a personal decision right now. The only there's no broad there's no data supporting avoiding fruits and vegetables generally and the only source identified by federal and uh federal investigators has been iceberg lettuce in a handful of states.
>> Okay. So, do we trust cuz it's peach season and I have a peach with my name on it.
>> I was going to say someone asked me about peach. I did a Reddit AMA yesterday where and today I guess where we answered a lot of these questions and so I did some peach research and peaches I think are almost certainly fine. I mean from cycllospora at the very least >> it's my favorite.
>> They grow in a tree.
>> They're on trees. Nobody can poop on them.
>> They're they're in trees. You're not going to get poop water up there on top of a tree.
>> Poop water.
>> That's the technical term for it.
>> Jeff Jarvis. Uh >> they water them on the ground. Besides being a brilliant professor at Montlair State uh uh University in New Jersey and Sunni Stonybrook in the state of the great state of New York, the Empire State as they call it is also the author of many wonderful books like the Gutenberg parenthesis, the web we weave magazine and his newest Hot Type comes out next month. You can get any or all at jeffjarvis.com. I do recommend Hot Type. Uh it is a great read. A fascinating story about the line of type, the magnificent machine. Did I send it to you yet, Paris?
>> You did. Send it to me again, though.
I'll read it. [laughter] >> Send it to me again. You You threw it out.
>> No, no, no. He sent sent me the um PDF he's talking about.
>> Okay. Yeah, I guess it's I have pre-ordered I pre-ordered the book. I haven't received it. Oh, you have to do that.
>> But are you going to do like a little launch party sort of thing in New York or anything? Come on. I'd be there. I have a editorial question.
Uh, should we have Jeremy Riiffken on?
>> He's got a new book, Rescuing the Future: Reimagining Artificial Intelligence in a World on the Edge.
>> I don't know enough to be able to uh answer that question.
>> I think he's a he's like John C.
D'vorak. He's an interesting character.
[laughter] Uh he's, you know, we seem to be having some, you know, I mean, Henry Blahett, same thing. Uh I think characters are fun. They make it fun.
>> Anyway, uh I will think about it and [clears throat] I'll take your votes. Go to the Twit forums that community >> a democracy.
>> It's not.
>> No, I will consider your votes. I I will weigh them [music] by decision. Thank you everybody. We'll see you next time on Intelligent Machines. Goodbye. If you like what you heard and you want more of this week's top stories in tech, well, subscribe to Tech News Weekly. Every Thursday, I talk with the journalists making and breaking the tech news.
[music] See, I'm an intelligent machine.
Related Videos
12:08
Artificial Intelligence
Expanding Stikbot thumbnails
leopoldshorts
2K views•2023-09-24
32:31
Artificial Intelligence
Digital Discrimination: Cognitive Bias in Machine Learning
redmonktechevents2974
4K views•2019-12-18
1:22:05
Artificial Intelligence
Evolutionary Approach to Clustering by Ujjwal Maulik
ICTStalks
279 views•2019-06-26
55:30
Artificial Intelligence
Rose Yu "Learning from Large-Scale Spatiotemporal Data"
networkscienceinstitute
2K views•2019-03-04
28:24
Artificial Intelligence
Stanford Seminar - Generalization through Task Representations with Foundation Models
stanfordonline
4K views•2025-07-14
8:29
Artificial Intelligence
Satellite-Based Wheat Yield Forecasting using GEE & Transformer Neural Network
gisrsinstitute
634 views•2025-06-15
32:06
Artificial Intelligence
Paradigm Shifts in Data Processing for the Generative AI Era: Robert Nishihara of Anyscale & Ray.io
GradientFlow
2K views•2025-01-02
39:48
Artificial Intelligence
How to Build Your Own GenAI-Based Knowledge Management System
2150GmbH
360 views•2025-06-03
Trending
13:38
Law
WOW! Judge TURNS THE TABLES on Trump in His OWN $10B LAWSUIT!!!
MeidasTouch
197K views•2026-07-23
13:25
Business
Playstation NO DISC/NO BUY Fight Is Over...
DavidJaffeGames
4K views•2026-07-23
22:40
Business
Steam and Xbox Just Dropped The Hammer On PlayStation
OhNoItsAlexx
9K views•2026-07-23
16:52
Anthropology
Americans Confused in Australia for 17 Minutes Straight
IWrocker
17K views•2026-07-23