Thomas Massie, The Tea Party, and the Importance of Principles

Added: 2026-05-28

[00:00:00]You open this door with the key of reason. Beyond it is another dimension.

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[00:00:20]>> [music] >> Where reason meets reality. Welcome to the capitalist corner.

[00:00:28]Welcome everybody to the capitalist corner. I'm your host Mark Pellegrino and also the chairman of the American Capitalist Party along with my co-host and vice chair of the American Capitalist Party Michael Lebowitz, who is also pretty much running the show for uh the Rational Alternative, this channel here that has so many so many uh programs on it now that you can choose from.

[00:00:49]Uh Michael, just tell us what the hell is going on because I'm on the dark continent still. I'm still in Europe, still uh you know, trying to feel my way through the uh murky murkiness of this of this place and totally outside the news except for the stuff that I get from you. So, tell us what's going on uh on the channel.

[00:01:08]Uh so, well, first of all, my my other channel, the Rational Egoist, we have a a debate I had um with a young PhD student about um this life human life as a standard of moral value. So, that should be checked out.

[00:01:24]And here we just got the greatest stuff.

[00:01:26]Of course, we have this every day at noon Eastern Time, the Capitalist Corner. Today at 2:30 and every day at 2:30 Eastern Time, Persephone and I do Every Day Ethics. And Monday, Wednesday, and Thursday 3:15 p.m. Eastern Time, we do Crime, Corrections, and Culture. And now on the weekends, for now, it's at 12:00 p.m. Eastern Time on Saturday, we have the Capitalist Corner Weekend. So, we're rocking and rolling. We've got a million things going on. And by the way, while I'm doing this, I'm sending the email for my regular job. So, I'm doing this for >> I love that you can multitask like that.

[00:02:00]I have issues with multitasking and I thought I thought men generally had issues with multitasking, but you seem to be doing a fairly fairly good job at You multitask while I'm talking half the time. Yes, I have to. It's very important. Is it? Uh so, I mean the main news that we're going to be talking out about today, Michael, is uh Thomas Massie and the Tea Party uh phenomenon, I think. Uh it looks like Massie is out.

[00:02:22]Uh he's he's been beaten in one of the most um hotly contested congressional races and most expensive, $32 million later after Trump endorsed his opponent.

[00:02:35]He's been primary now out.

[00:02:37]Um Thomas Massie was an interesting cat, man. He came up with the Tea Party, which we'll talk about at some point. He was one of the most principled and consistent uh cats out there along with, I think, Rand Paul.

[00:02:51]And he had the courage, like Rand has the courage from time to time, to stand up against Trump, who has completely co-opted the Republican Party. By the way, I predicted that Trump would ruin the Republican Party in 2016. All right.

[00:03:04]So, we're getting yelled at here by Persephone. Well, not we, you.

[00:03:09]Uh she says, "Don't forget to follow us on Twitch, listen on Spotify, and consider channel membership uh to see members-only content, and go look at some of the merch." Yes. And as a reminder of how much we love super chats and super stickers. Thank you, Janet.

[00:03:25]>> Janet claimed with $2. Thanks. All right, Mark, can I just jump in here?

[00:03:29]You can, but, you know, did you have any Did you take issue with anything I said?

[00:03:32]Cuz I thought what I said was amazing.

[00:03:34]No, no. What you said I don't think that Thomas Massie came up with the Tea Party. You did say that, and that I don't think is true. But other than that, you were you it it was good.

[00:03:43]Okay, good. Okay. So, here's the This is what I gather. I had not followed Thomas Massie. I don't really care about Thomas Massie. He's in Kentucky. I'm not. Uh and I've got a lot of things to do as you already pointed out. But in the last day, day and a half, I've done an abundance of reading about Thomas Massie.

[00:04:05]Here is Now, I've seen today Well, I'll get to that.

[00:04:10]There's going to be a thread today that ties everything together. I promise. By the end of this show, you will see what I'm talking about.

[00:04:18]Thomas Massie, um when it comes to ideology, is very close to me.

[00:04:24]He's uh strict constitutionalist. He wants to cut spending. He wants to uh cut regulations, cut taxes. He's opposed to foreign aid. All things that I would support.

[00:04:38]Now, here's the problem.

[00:04:41]Um his opposition to Israel has brought in a lot of um anti-Semitic characters or a lot of characters that I would not traffic with.

[00:04:56]And uh not only has Massie not disavowed these folks, but he's actually gone on their shows as in the case of Tucker Carlson. He hasn't disavowed for in instance Candace Owens or Dave Smith or any of the other whackos, you know, out there.

[00:05:12]So, uh I personally would not support Massie.

[00:05:17]The reason I wouldn't support him is because he's a politician.

[00:05:21]Uh I think that he's accepted ads that are inappropriate and I think he's trafficked with some folks that are inappropriate like all politicians do.

[00:05:32]But unlike some, I don't excuse it because it's what all politicians do.

[00:05:40]Right? I don't care what all politicians do. I want a better politician.

[00:05:46]Right? So, there's there's people out there accusing uh Massie of anti-Semitism, outright anti-Semitism.

[00:05:54]Uh having looked into this, you know, over the last, like I said, day and a half or each, you know, mostly just this morning.

[00:06:02]It seems like most of that is tied to his opposition of aid to Israel. There was also where he uh refused to vote about uh supporting Israel after October 7th, where they voted that they we would always commit to Israel's security. It doesn't surprise me he wouldn't vote for that. I wouldn't vote for that. I would not vote that the United States is always going to guarantee Israel's security.

[00:06:26]Um there was also an instance in 2022 where there was a symbolic vote after an anti-Semitic attack. Uh I think it was in Buffalo and the Congress uh gave a symbolic vote. Uh what's the word I'm looking for here? Disavowing anti-Semitism. He didn't vote for that.

[00:06:43]I I I'm not a big fan of symbolic acts myself, of just doing things just to do them.

[00:06:50]Uh but whatever. I mean, it would he's the only one that voted against it. It would have been easy to do and he and he didn't. That doesn't make him an anti-Semite. I do, like I said, think that he has allowed anti-Semites to follow him, to support him and he doesn't disavow them, which is why I wouldn't support him. But I want to point something out here, Mark.

[00:07:12]Go ahead.

[00:07:13]>> Because Well, there are a couple things.

[00:07:14]One, there's a claim out there being put out there, for instance, like Adam Masshoff, um the objectivist lawyer, said that uh let me just go get it so I don't uh you know, misquote the guy. I want to have it.

[00:07:27]I want to get, you know, exactly what he said. He said, "Tonight, the Republicans sent an anti-Semite packing home, Massie, and the Democrats voted for an anti-Semite goat."

[00:07:38]What in God's name are you doing?

[00:07:41]>> [clears throat] >> Okay.

[00:07:43]Uh Typing what you say. Okay, but okay, but you got to put mute on. All right. Uh and the Democrats voted for an anti-Semite Galindo who has called for converting ICE detention centers into internment camps for American Jews who she calls Zionist. Uh the Democrats have a very serious have a serious anti-Semitism problem. Okay. Let's unpack this. First of all, you call somebody an anti-Semitism, you better have strong strong evidence.

[00:08:13]Right? Not the failure of symbolic votes or opposing Israel and AIPAC uh or even going on Tucker Carlson. You better have better evidence than that.

[00:08:25]That's the first thing. Secondly, the idea that the Republicans sent him packing because of anti-Semitism is pure de [ __ ] Right? It's not true.

[00:08:34]There's zero evidence for it. The reason he lost the primary is because I don't Galindo might I don't know anything about her, Ian, but that's not not my to my point here.

[00:08:45]Um he uh Massie lost because he defied Trump.

[00:08:51]Because he went against Trump and Trump called for him to lose the primary.

[00:08:57]Right? That's why he lost. It's not because uh the Republicans are coming up you know, coming strong against anti-Semitism. It's just not true.

[00:09:10]Even if it were.

[00:09:13]Uh let me just put something out there, Mark, and you see if you agree with my analogy.

[00:09:18]I opposed the Iran war from the beginning out of principle.

[00:09:22]I said it's unconstitutional. America it it our foundation is our Constitution.

[00:09:27]The separation of powers is important in reason and in morality. We ought not to violate it.

[00:09:35]I've been told variations on a theme.

[00:09:38]This issue is so important that it justifies it or they all violate the Constitution, so you know, what difference does it make now?

[00:09:47]Okay.

[00:09:48]Thomas Massie, policy-wise, is very, very close to me. I think if his policies were to get implemented, it would be very, very good for the United States.

[00:10:00]Right? Deregulation, tax cuts, constitutionalism, staying out of foreign entanglements, all very good for the United States, right? I won't support him and would not support him because of the type of people he traffics with, because of principle.

[00:10:17]But why then can't I just argue as the supporters of the Iran war argue? Well, the Constitution's always violated.

[00:10:24]Well, politicians all do this. They all accept support from people that are that are uh, you know, unsavory. They all do things symbolically. They all go on shows where people, you know, they probably shouldn't be dealing with that.

[00:10:38]I can make the same line of arguments to support Massie that they used to support Iran.

[00:10:46]I, of course, won't.

[00:10:48]Because I don't care how good he is on policy, he's demonstrated to me that he's not of sound character if he's willing to associate with Tucker Carlson.

[00:10:59]But that, my friends, is principle.

[00:11:03]What's the difference?

[00:11:05]Why is it okay to violate principle to support the war in Iran, but not okay to violate principle to support policies that are very good for America?

[00:11:15]It's all just politics, right?

[00:11:18][ __ ] that. All right, go ahead, Mark.

[00:11:21]Yeah, you're right. I think because people get the idea that politics is not about principle, Michael. It's about It's fundamentally about compromise.

[00:11:29]So, for them, they're used to good compromising with bad and bad being the fundamental winner in that compromise.

[00:11:37]I just had this discussion with somebody on X who who insinuated that, you know, I was being too principled.

[00:11:44]And that politics is really about building coalitions.

[00:11:49]And we often hear this Michael within our own party, how we have to start building coalitions with people.

[00:11:55]But the problem is I'm for building coalitions. However, I'm also for more for winning folks over to our side.

[00:12:04]Because you can build temporary coalitions with people, but you can't if you sacrifice your principles while building those coalitions, the principles become meaningless.

[00:12:14]And you become associated with pragmatism, not not principled behavior anymore. I don't know who other than Tucker Tucker Carlson did he who else did he associate with besides that group?

[00:12:25]>> Um I know that Candace Owens supports him. I know Dave Smith supports him.

[00:12:30]Uh Persephone, find out if Nick Fuentes supports him, Persephone, cuz I'm not certain. But he hasn't disavowed any of them. He went on Carlson's show, but I just want to read some comments.

[00:12:41]Uh Jew hatred thankfully was rejected in Kentucky tonight. These are These are from objectivists. I don't want to get into the names. It's really not important to me right now to to get into that.

[00:12:53]Um Actually, no, [ __ ] it. That was from Mike Niren. Um Then there was this. Uh so let me find the woman.

[00:13:04]Uh This woman Oh, Jesus. It's all over the place. So This woman Audrey Lee asked for evidence and it was basically told um in relation to asking for evidence uh that he's an anti-Semite. Well, you're just dumb. That's what an objectivist is told, or you're just stupid.

[00:13:32]Talk for a second, and let me let me let me find this. Uh yeah, I mean, I'm not I'm not so familiar with the anti-semite accusations. I I I do know that he fights uh with the the lobby group for um the the Israel Jewish lobby.

[00:13:51]>> Okay. Okay, so I found this. I found what I wanted. Go ahead. So, somebody in the comments to to that about uh Jew hatred was rejected. First of all, Jew hatred was not rejected.

[00:14:02]Donald Trump was reaffirmed, which is something these people I thought were against.

[00:14:08]But now they're not because it's an issue that they like. So, the hell with principle. So, this is the somebody says this is an insane, unfounded, unjust comment. So, that's then Razi Ginsburg steps in and says, Massie's entire campaign was filled with anti-semitic blood libels. Here's just one example in an interview he gave to an outlet that has praised the October 7th massacre. I listened to the interview. Uh there's no no blood libel for Massie in that interview, and there's certainly no support of what happened on October 7th.

[00:14:39]I sent you both the interview. So, I don't know >> Is that Is that the interview you sent me where he just talks about AIPAC money, you know, involved? Yeah.

[00:14:47]>> Yeah, so according to Razi, that's an example of the anti-semitic blood libels that fill his campaign. It's just not true. I'm sorry, it's not [ __ ] true.

[00:14:58]So, this So, now this woman steps in uh and says, I didn't hear him praise the October 7th massacre in that video.

[00:15:05]Did I miss something?

[00:15:07]The response to her was, who are you, and why are you in this group? I ask because your comment was the dumbest I've read in decades, and that says a lot.

[00:15:18]That's from an objectivist.

[00:15:20]Michael because she said because that's what she said about that.

[00:15:24]Uh She and then they get to do she says you then they start asking questions. I don't I don't really care about that. I wanted then there was this uh libertarians who support Thomas Massie prove that libertarianism is bankrupt ethically and void ideology. Objectivist who do are irredeemable.

[00:15:47]It you're irredeemable as an objectivist. So, I don't know Robert Naceur earlier said this.

[00:15:56]Hold on. Massie great domestically.

[00:15:59]Shame he got trumped. If Iran Israel is your highest priority, you might be glad he's gone. Personally despite that, I'm disappointed. I am too. True too few never trumpers left. Yes, Robert, but evidently Robert according to Michael Niren, you are irredeemable.

[00:16:15]First of all, the idea that that of being irredeemable flies in the face of volition.

[00:16:23]Right? So, it flies in the face that people can change. So, right off the bat, but they've completely thrown principle out here. Completely. Again, I wouldn't support Massie.

[00:16:35]But I take a principled stance.

[00:16:39]Go ahead.

[00:16:41]I think that's a very interesting point, Michael. I I think that objectivist should think twice before they say irredeemable.

[00:16:47]I haven't even thought of it in those terms because it's true. You're denying free will and [snorts] free free free choice moral agency when you do that.

[00:16:57]>> [snorts] >> Um yeah, I mean I have to actually check out and check back in because the image is going really crazy here and my my internet is sketchy. So, I got I'm going to try to pop back in. Give me 2 minutes.

[00:17:11]Okay, we've got a lot of comments here.

[00:17:12]Mark has just left. So, now I'm I'm devoid of friends here. But yeah, look, I'm just of the of the belief that calling people anti-Semitic or calling people racist or any of the other things, sexist, racist, homophobe, you ought to be able to prove it. And the video that was presented as evidence, can you put it up here, Persephone? I'd like to play it.

[00:17:40]The interview with Thomas Massie. I I just think that people should um hear what we're talking about and uh can decide for themselves whether it's typical of anti-Semitic blood libel as seems to have been claimed uh by Razi here.

[00:18:07]You can't find it?

[00:18:12]I got a friend that Yes, but you're in the audience, Daniel. You're not up here with me, and that's where I kind of needed my my friend.

[00:18:24]Persephone cannot find the video. That's not very encouraging for me.

[00:18:29]Um well, hopefully it will be uh she will find it in a second.

[00:18:36]So, according to Mr. Ginsberg, this is just one example of anti-Semitic blood libel.

[00:18:46]Persephone, nod to me if you've at least found what I'm talking about.

[00:18:50]Okay, she at least found it. It's going to be here again. Uh religious terms from Greg Lewis, irredeemable just needs to be uh collated in under Orthodox Objectivism, another attempt to sweep things under the rug of cultism.

[00:19:04]I did send it, Akira. Don't accuse me.

[00:19:07]She knows it's there.

[00:19:12]I went to New York yesterday, by the way, that's why I wasn't here. I went to a debate about whether billionaires should be paying more taxes.

[00:19:19]And we will get to that in a, you know, a few minutes. We're going to talk a little bit about that. We have some video from my question to the two >> [laughter] >> Robert Naser says he was irredeemable before it was cool.

[00:19:33]>> [laughter] >> Robert, thank you so much for the $2.

[00:19:39]You rock as always.

[00:19:45]The argument that a person is bad because a bad person supports him is terrible, not relevant to anything.

[00:19:51]I agree with that, Ian Gilmore. I do think though that if you if people are coming out in favor of you and supporting you and then you're going on their shows and they are not good people, you ought to at least say, "I don't want their support." That's what I That's what I think. But, Persephone, what's Can you do this or no? Let me get her on here so I can ask her what's going on.

[00:20:14]What's wrong? It's from the video is on AP News and I can't down I'm trying but I it's difficult to download videos from websites because they prevent you from doing that. So, I don't Yeah, I don't think I'm going to be able to do it.

[00:20:30]Wow, that sucks. But, the the video is on the Capitalist Corner website. If people go and check out the recommended reading.

[00:20:39]I really would recommend it uh to see if it's true that it's an example of anti-Semitic blood libel.

[00:20:46]I I think it's I think it's an important thing. I really hope people will do it.

[00:20:50]Um the video it's maybe 2 minutes? 1 minute 37 seconds.

[00:20:56]Yeah, 1 minute 37 seconds. It's very quick. Uh I think that Persephone's probably wrong and it probably could have been brought up on here, but you know, that's what Persephone does.

[00:21:05]>> You could always share your You should You could always share your screen and play the video yourself. Can you um post the link and the link be posted here and I can just hit the link?

[00:21:19]Well, no, because you can't I mean I can post it in the private chat. Do you want to know about Nick Fuentes though?

[00:21:28]Uh so Greg Doherty says he's followed Massie very closely for 5 years. He says he smelled the anti-semitism for 2 or 3.

[00:21:35]However, after watching every interview, reading every post, no proof.

[00:21:49]Hm.

[00:21:53]Greg Doherty says, "I don't know Does my characterization fit the evidence?" Greg Doherty, that's what I would like to know because that's because I think it does. That's why it's my characteristic.

[00:22:02]Okay, we're going to get Mark back up here and we're going to kick Persephone off. Persephone, tell them again what to do if they want to watch the video.

[00:22:10]Uh you can go to your www.thecapitalistcorner and click on the recommended reading tab and all of the articles are under the name of today's episode. You can also find the link on the post tab on the YouTube channel. Awesome, thank you.

[00:22:27]All right, Mark, you watched that interview. Did you find it to be indicative of anti-semitic blood libel?

[00:22:35]No, no, but he he was definitely if if I remember correctly sort of indicating that there was a cabal out there who were Epstein-related uh and he did he did sort of advance Epstein theories about being in the Mossad and all of this none of which is corroborated by actual evidence.

[00:22:57]>> No, what No, you That's true. What he does do is take things that have been speculated about and asserts them as facts. Right. Now now people can because they associate they're associating Jeffrey Epstein with the Mossad and being an agent of of the Israelis, people can associate that with a let's say if not outright anti-Semitism, certainly anti-Semitism adjacent.

[00:23:23]Because there's there by association attempting to smear Israel, the Israel lobby. Look, they try to make Israel appear to be the biggest economic lobby out there working for foreign interests and how damaging it is to American interests. They're number 10 on the list. I mean, China is is a much bigger foreign lobby than them, much bigger. They're number one on the list, I believe. But still, they they try to give it outsized influence and he was pushing in that direction. And it's no lie that they AIPAC was actually out to get him. That was part of the lobby that was certainly funding millions, yeah. Millions. Again, at least like 9 million bucks I think they threw towards his campaign. And look, money can't necessarily win over hearts and minds. I think in the in the end um the people have to be, you know, Trump forward as well.

[00:24:17]Uh you know, uh See, okay. So this is this is Let me just put something out there for you. When I I'm going to give you When I went to trial, there was a potential of having an engineer on my jury. And my uh Christopher Smith, we already talked about that. But anyways, um wanted an engineer on the jury because engineers are meticulous regarding evidence. They want things proven. So this, Janette, as much as I like Janette, this here is not an argument. If it smells like a skunk, it's a skunk and it with the exclamation point. That doesn't That doesn't mean anything.

[00:24:56]>> Yeah, but it's it's what I'm saying is the stuff he's saying borders on stuff that you could think there's there's certainly associated with conspiracies that anti-semites like to throw out there, but he doesn't he doesn't go full in Mike. At least he's he dicks he sticks his toe in.

[00:25:11]>> I want okay, I want this is okay.

[00:25:13]Christopher Smith, you've accused now somebody of being an anti-semite. I'm going to ask you to prove it.

[00:25:19]I want proof because the video that I watched, no.

[00:25:24]The fact that he voted no on a symbolic vote uh of a congress that just wants to make itself, you know, basically virtue signal, no.

[00:25:35]So it's the end Gilmore Michael says Massie's definitely conspiracy theory guy and if >> I agree with that, yeah.

[00:25:41]>> If that's the case then he's falling into the conspiracies that all of those guys happen to believe in as well, which to me disqualifies him from from any uh from from me me backing him.

[00:25:54]Oh, I wouldn't back him. Uh again, this is the problem. I'm not I would not back this guy because of all this stuff. I think there's plenty of problems. I also think there's a lot of good.

[00:26:05]But I do think there's plenty of problems. I'm saying that if if you're going to tell say somebody's anti-semitic, uh I I don't know. I mean, he he wanted the release of the Epstein files. The the idea that Epstein is a Mossad agent, there is evidence out there for this. I mean, it's not like he just invented that.

[00:26:26]He didn't just make it up.

[00:26:28]It's correct. It's it's it's it's it's apparently an FBI agent who overheard a conversation so it's it comes it it it's would you call that hearsay Michael? I mean, is that hearsay evidence? It's not definitely hard evidence.

[00:26:41]>> no I yeah, it's it's not. I don't um you know, I I I just I I that that anti-Semitism, it's like okay.

[00:26:56]I oppose affirmative action.

[00:26:58]I oppose reparations. I oppose DEI. You know who else would? Racists.

[00:27:05]Yes. Okay, does it mean that I'm a racist because I oppose those things?

[00:27:10]Because racists would too?

[00:27:12]I mean it just the logic just does not follow. That is lame.

[00:27:16]And again, I'm not even saying the guy's not an anti-Semite. I don't know. What I'm saying is that the evidence that I've seen presented thus far doesn't prove it. And if you're going to make an accusation like that, especially if you're going to claim to be part of a philosophy or to adhere to a philosophy that demands objectivity, you better bring better than that. That's what That's all I'm saying.

[00:27:39]>> what I see Michael is he was using conspiracy theories that were popular with the right in order to leverage and in order to leverage that loss in order to in order to explain it and leverage it politically. It didn't It sounded more like a pragmatic statement than a than a statement of ideal of ideology or bigotry coming from the guy.

[00:28:01]>> Right. So, Chuck on money with $5, uh yeah, you once you start citing Cenk Uygur, dude, like I don't know. The guy's a bozo. But he says one of the guys who wrote the Israel lobby walked out of an interview when Cenk started ranting about Israel running America and blackmailing everyone. Yeah. He should.

[00:28:19]Yeah, I'm not going to sit there with this [ __ ] ranting and he starts sweating and spitting and like I know, you're a fat slob, dude. Get out of my face. I'm not sitting around with >> Yeah, Cenk is a disgusting, despicable human being and I would walk out of the interview, too. Michael, after I tried to apply a nice collar joke, I would I would walk out.

[00:28:39]Uh Ian Gilmore says the Daily Objective has a stream starting in 2 minutes that labels him an anti-Semite. Maybe they'll have proof. I doubt it.

[00:28:47]Um It's going to be uh uh I I I I I I >> to see. Maybe they know something that we don't.

[00:28:52]>> Well, I hope not to uh chase everybody away, but it's going to be You can go watch it in reruns because I'm going to.

[00:28:59]Not in reruns, you know, on replay. It's Jim Valleyant and uh Adam Massov are going to going to be talking about it.

[00:29:05]I know because I talked to him last night.

[00:29:06]>> Is anybody taking the opposite? Is Is James arguing >> No, um I you know, I think that it's They don't do a lot of contrary type stuff over there. Correct.

[00:29:19]>> just put that, right? It's It's mostly you come on and whatever. But, we'll see. We'll see what happens. I'm going to watch it um after this. I got to take a shower. I got to do some other stuff and I'm going to watch that because I'm uh The kiddies don't even know what reruns are. Probably not.

[00:29:35]My But, this this is ultimately my conclusion.

[00:29:45]No, I see I I disagree uh Chandler.

[00:29:48]Chandler says clickbait is good. I I disagree with that.

[00:29:52]Uh he I I I disagree. Um I I don't think that doing that is appropriate for people that are claiming And I'm I don't know. I didn't see it. I don't want to get into it cuz I didn't even see the I didn't see the title. I didn't see anything.

[00:30:08]Um clickbait does does work. I just don't uh I don't I don't like it and I don't think I it Let me just say this. I don't think that people should be putting out thumbnails with a with titles that don't that aren't supported by what's in the actual video.

[00:30:27]Would that be a fair way to put it, Mark, do you think?

[00:30:31]Yeah, I think that's I think that's a fair way to put it.

[00:30:33]Yeah. But But, people do love to to draw people in with a title even if it's misrepresented of the topic.

[00:30:43]Yeah.

[00:30:45]Uh >> [laughter] >> the pedophiles are controlled by the Jews. Dude, I don't I didn't get that he said that. Uh I watched it, Mr. Deagle.

[00:30:56]Um I didn't see him insinuate it. Uh he said that a lot of the people opposing him are friends with people that are on the Epstein list. That's actually what what he said. And again, uh I don't I I don't like that he that the guy does it. I'm not defending the guy as a human being. I would oppose him. I would never support him.

[00:31:16]Um the Epstein class is not just Jews, uh Mr. Deagle. That is >> [laughter] >> like that's crazy.

[00:31:27]The Epstein class is not just Jews.

[00:31:30]Yeah, and that and that now is bordering on anti-Semitism.

[00:31:33]>> Yeah, like Jesus Christ, dude.

[00:31:36]>> [laughter] >> Oh my god. Not only I don't even want to get into the further part.

[00:31:44]>> Although Michael, now the big smear coming out of the commie left and the socialist left is they try to associate you with the Epstein class. So, this is now this is now just a generalized smear for any populist. If you stand for capitalism, they think you're a 1%er.

[00:32:00]And if you're a 1%er, [clears throat] you're in the you're in the Epstein class. Uh no matter what. Here's the thing, the funny thing about this, right?

[00:32:09]So, if Massie is an anti-Semite for wanting the Epstein class exposed, right? The Epstein people. And I think it's probably overblown, but I haven't studied it.

[00:32:21]MAGA, the whole [ __ ] movement was talking about that. Get the Epstein files need to be released. Epstein files need to be released. Uh what's this the FBI people all you know, Patel Well, Trump Trump made it a campaign point, Michael, until he realized that he was probably in every other >> Right. So, I mean, I just I just don't see that as anti-Semitism. Again, I think that this dude caters to anti-Semites, and for that reason, I wouldn't support him.

[00:32:54]And I wouldn't support him despite all of the good policies that he holds. And that ultimately is my point is that I would oppose him out of principle. I just don't see how when we become hyperbolic in our arguments, it helps our case.

[00:33:09]Like, suppose if I say, if you raise a minute the minimum wage, there's the tendency is towards unemployment of the people you're trying to help, right?

[00:33:18]What if I were to say, if you raise the minimum wage, you're going to create mass unemployment, people are going to be starving to death in the streets.

[00:33:26]That doesn't help my case.

[00:33:28]And we don't have to run around calling people racist and anti-Semites because of this. And I've got a strong suspicion now, this stuff is going to come back to bite. Because because, you know, every hear the saying, live by the sword, die by the sword? Live by the accusation, die by the accusation.

[00:33:50]Because we oppose, like I said, reparations, we oppose affirmative action, we oppose DEI, we oppose, uh, food stamps. Yeah, a whole abundance of things.

[00:34:03]Uh, when somebody comes to you then and says, "Look, these are racist policies."

[00:34:08]And then hit you with the analogy, it's not good. All right, we got, uh, Thank you, Greg Lewis, for the, uh, dollar >> Yeah, I got to go find it. My Uh-oh, my thing broke.

[00:34:21]>> [clears throat] >> My mouse broke.

[00:34:25]That that's crazy.

[00:34:27]Yeah, thank you, Greg Lewis. Uh, I I like that, uh, Persephone says she only likes the fun conspiracies like the moon is a hologram. I didn't even know that was an actual thing, Michael. I don't know what to do. I can't operate my computer now.

[00:34:41]Persephone, can you help him operate his computer remotely from South Africa?

[00:34:47]I want to put his uh super chat chat on the screen.

[00:34:51]Super sticker. Super sticker.

[00:34:55]Uh, Greg Doherty says something interesting. Clickbait destroys trust. I agree with you. Just say plainly what you are going to have on your show and then do that. You know, stick to your word. That's what integrity means, man.

[00:35:10]Okay, I got it to work. All right, let's see here.

[00:35:13]No, now still not working.

[00:35:15]Uh, Mr. Deagle says AR CUK people are throwing anti-Semitism and blood libel at everything. They overuse it a lot.

[00:35:22]That's true, but there's a lot of blood libels out there and it's a a lot of the left are using blood libels. They're creating some Thanks, Greg.

[00:35:31]>> So, unfortunately, they may be overusing it, but so are the left. So, it's uh it's it's difficult now in in today's conspiracy-ridden uh social milieu and political milieu to figure out Christopher Christopher uh No, I'm not going to be fooled by click-baity there Captain Chandler. We're not out of touch here. It's dishonest and I don't give a It doesn't matter if it works or if people are fooled by it.

[00:36:02]Yes, I have to say >> Hold on a second. Okay, see this here?

[00:36:05]Yeah, I agree. He says he's using dog whistles. He said he couldn't reach his opponent because he was in Tel Aviv, the opponent. Yeah, I agree. I agree. But, the problem is a lot of those groups did support his opponent. I mean, it's not like he's just fabricating that. But, anyways, I got to look something up, Mark. So, do a little talking.

[00:36:25]Yeah, again, I mean, he's definitely he's definitely creeping up to anti-Semitism and for me it's a little difficult to tell at this point whether whether he's just appealing to that part of his constituency that are conspiracy theorists or in fact does believe that the Jews are controlling the Earth and are and are the you know, almost exclusively in the Epstein files.

[00:36:49]I don't know enough about Massie's political career to be able to say that, Michael. In fact, before I read all of this stuff and just heard that he got defeated in the primary in Kentucky, I did invite him to join a third party, the American Capitalist Party, but now I'm reconsidering it given given the stuff that I'm learning about him today.

[00:37:08]I just knew him as a fiscal conservative who fought Trump. I didn't even know anything about his uh his his alignment with conspiracy theorists.

[00:37:23]I'm trying to find something out.

[00:37:26]Here.

[00:37:29]Uh yeah, Mr. Mr. Egle is interesting here.

[00:37:32]He says if this was in a vacuum, then yes, I wouldn't say it necessarily was anti-Semitic, but considering the current culture, I would say that he's anti-Semitic.

[00:37:42]So, Michael, these these are dog whistles that are All right. I I say whatever you want.

[00:37:48]>> community.

[00:37:49]>> Yep. It it is. You know what else gets accused of being dog whistles? Saying you're I know, but it's it's he's trying it's plausible deniability. When you throw those dog whistles out, there's plausible deniability because anybody can take them anyway. That's true. And when you go out there and you say affirmative action is bad, nobody deserves reparations, the other side says those are dog whistles.

[00:38:11]I'm just saying, if you're going if you're going to be using that kind of language, be prepared. That's all I'm saying.

[00:38:20]I got to find [clears throat] something out. So, I want to about something. Go ahead, Mark.

[00:38:23]>> This is true. Uh Um Uh the fact that you cannot question Israel kind of gives these guys unearned credibility.

[00:38:32]The problem is the outrage. The fact that Michael gets accused of supporting Iran proves that.

[00:38:37]Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Akira I you know, I like your formulation there. It it's true. It's it's difficult to It's difficult to criticize Israel and not be called a an anti-Semite, but I understand the reasons for that given Israel's unique position in the world and the way in which so many popular forces seem to be aligned against them.

[00:39:01]And also given the fact that 85 to 90% of Jews are Okay, so in this camp, it it does mean when you start when you start projecting anti-Zionism, you are projecting an anti-Semitic vibe.

[00:39:15]And the the prevalence of these conspiracy theories on the left and the right is it is very haunting.

[00:39:22]Hauntingly similar to the '30s.

[00:39:27]Okay, so Christopher Smith wants to know if a Star of David in a campaign ad is anti-Semitic. Yes, that ad was anti-Semitic. I was very confident that it was not Massie who put the ad out.

[00:39:37]So, I actually went and looked it up. Uh there does not appear to be evidence that Thomas Massie Massie personally created or directly authorized the ad in question. The ad was produced by a pro-Massie PAC supporting his reelection effort. And Massie did not publicly condemn it when the controversy erupted.

[00:39:55]That is exactly why I would not support him.

[00:40:01]Uh but let me just say that that is also the type of thing that most politicians do.

[00:40:10]Right? Most politicians allow money, allow support. They don't want to disavow people because it helps them. I think it's grotesque.

[00:40:22]I think it's grotesque. I wouldn't support him. But, all I'm going to say is when I've been criticizing Trump, a lot of the people that support him have told me, "Well, all politicians do that.

[00:40:33]Where's the perfect candidate?" I was told in regard to the Iranian war, "We had the Constitution's important, but this is more important." Uh it you know, so you can't have these things both ways. Either be principled or don't. I'm principled. I oppose the Iran war. I oppose Massie. I oppose Trump. The only one I support is Mark.

[00:40:59]Right, Mark? Well, thank you, but I'm not in the political game and I I don't want to get into politics.

[00:41:04]>> Uh you're the head of a political party, Mark. Well, this is true, but I am not a candidate and I hope to never be one.

[00:41:11]That probably uniquely qualifies me to be one, Michael, because I don't want to be one. But, I am the head of a party called American Capitalist Party for anybody who's interested in a party that actually stands for something and will back up its actions with principles, please go to americancapitalistparty.org and be a part of the change. I have to mute cuz our dog is freaking out. All right. So, this is going to be a real problem uh for Mark today. Ian Gilmore says Massie off is making a decent argument.

[00:41:40]I'm going to check it out for myself.

[00:41:42]Reckonwald uh was Yeah, he was awful.

[00:41:45]I've actually debated him. He's a real dick. Uh saying that you're suspicious of somebody like Massie is not the same thing of saying he's an anti-Semite.

[00:41:54]That is the point that I'm trying to make here. If if people want to say, "Look, this dude caters to anti-Semites" or he says things that border on anti-Semitism or that may imply it, that's a different story than coming to a definitive conclusion that the guy is an anti-Semite. But, uh even more than that, then to say that he was ousted because he's an anti-Semite is just absurd. That's not why he was uh Yes, that that's not a very good argument, Christopher Smith. If it walks like a duck, I'm sorry. I you know, no.

[00:42:27]That That's not an argument. Michael, it's certainly hard uh to fight those claims when he's not disavowing his association with anti-Semites who are speaking for him or doing or making advertisements for him. Right. If I was a political candidate an anti-Semite started using my name my name >> I would, too. I would stand up and say, "This doesn't represent me. I do not approve of this." I would, too. You know who else I would disavow? I would if I was Donald Trump, I would disavow Alex Jones. I would disavow Nick Fuentes.

[00:42:56]Uh I would disavow the Proud Boys.

[00:42:59]Absolutely.

[00:42:59]>> Instead of getting up there and saying "Proud Boys, stand by and stand" or whatever [ __ ] he said. He said "Stand by and stand down."

[00:43:06]>> Yeah. My point is is that uh it These, yeah, stand down and stand by. My point is that this is nothing new. And if you're going to and we ought to hold all of them to this same standard.

[00:43:22]Uh I absolutely agree with you. That way the political class won't get away with any more of their shenanigans. I love this from uh Rena Trix, Michael. The Capitalist Party is a wonderful party with wonderful wonderful in what they stand for, great policies, a much-needed party. I completely and totally agree with you. Michael, is there anybody in Washington today that you as the vice chair of the American Capitalist Party could say you would support?

[00:43:48]What do you mean by support?

[00:43:50]>> Like support say if they wanted to come over to our fold. There's Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians that are sort of out there in the in the wilderness.

[00:43:57]>> Probably not. Probably not. Um I I don't know. I don't even know if my views are viable uh for for politics because I'm not going to bend. And people can say, "Well, you know, you have to be practical." But it's funny to me that the practicality only applies in some situations. And I don't I'm using practicality as it's used, that you have to be in the real world. You can't be so high-pie-in-the-sky idealist principled.

[00:44:25]And all right, then let's you know, if you're going to do that, then do it. But it can't just be I'm going to be principled when somebody is critical of Jews, or I'm going to be principled for whatever other reason.

[00:44:40]You have to be principled. You can't just do it on whim or you know, on the in in fleeting uh patches. Michael, but the but the last I looked, principles are for applying in the real world. It's not like the real world Yeah, it's not like the real world has a different set of rules. And you have to abandon the sum of knowledge that you get from a principle in order to to live in the real world. You don't.

[00:45:06]In fact, the principle helps you navigate reality. You should stick to principles like they are your lifesaver, because they in fact are. It's when you start jumping off of the principles that you go into the swamp. And this is precisely Michael, the morass that we're in right now has been the result of 125 years of separating principle from politics, of separating ethics from politics. It's been pragmatic compromise after pragmatic compromise that has taken us to the point where we are now, which is a barely recognizable republic.

[00:45:39]It's really It's really a spoils system democracy with a constitution that's just a piece of paper in the minds of almost everybody who's in power right now. And worse, it's that way in the minds of the American people themselves.

[00:45:53]So >> Yes, the moral is the practical, Jerry.

[00:45:56]Um I have a question for Ian Gilmore. You said that Uh, Professor Masoud is making good arguments. What I want to know is, uh, is he making arguments that the Republicans got rid of Massie because he's an anti-semite? Because that's what he claimed, and it's also not true. I mean, it's just it's just not true.

[00:46:15]Um, okay, Michael is waking up. Michael has always been awake, Akira.

[00:46:21]So, that's that's that's I'm not just waking up. Um, I've been awake, and that's why I tend to notice things. The problem is >> Michael, I think you've been Yeah, you've been awake for a long time when you disavowed being an objectivist based on a lot of the stuff that was going on. You're You consider yourself objectivist-adjacent, but you can't call yourself an objectivist given all the crazy >> was There were a lot of reasons for that, but, um, >> [clears throat] >> the thing is is that a lot of this stuff only gets revealed when the situation arises to reveal it. I think Let me I'll give you an some examples. I think that the left and wokeism broke people.

[00:46:59]Yeah. Like my friend Like my good friend Andy Bernstein.

[00:47:02]Uh, I think that that broke him.

[00:47:05]Um, not And I don't mean entirely. I just What I mean by that is he now no longer sees the situation this specific situation rationally. Right.

[00:47:14]>> just doesn't. I think COVID broke a lot of people, where now everything is seen through the lens of what the government did for during COVID. So, now vaccines are all bad, uh, you know, the pharmaceutical industry's all bad, that type of thing. Right.

[00:47:29]>> And it's So, and I think that that So, that happened. I think that the war with Iran has showed something that was already there. It just didn't get a chance to reveal itself, and I think this is what has broke other objectivists.

[00:47:46]Um, that's all.

[00:47:47]So, but I want to I want to I want to You're going to keep going? I want to talk about the Tea Party. Okay, go.

[00:47:53]>> I've been wanting to. No, go ahead. You No, no, I just I was just thinking the thing I think it uncovered was Americans had a deep resentment against Iran's um revolution.

[00:48:04]I think against the Islamic Republic of Iran since 1979. Dude, I was I was alive and and and old enough to be conscious during that 444 day countdown where they made asses of the greatest superpower on the planet by holding these hostages and with no political or military uh solution. Uh and it stuck in the craw of many people of my age and I think the fact that Trump was the only president to go out there and actually take a positive step towards unseating the regime or at least that's what people thought initially.

[00:48:43]It did let loose this 50-year long resentment that people have been carrying across. The right, the problem is is we all have the capacity for bias.

[00:48:54]Right? All of us have it. You know, for for bias one way uh or or or another for one issue or another. The point is is we need to be aware of them.

[00:49:04]So that they don't drag us into these things.

[00:49:08]They will drag us away from principle.

[00:49:10]Michael, I want to get your feedback on this because as uh Greg Daugherty says morally supporting is distinct from voting with. I I I disagree with that concept, but what do you think? Uh no, I think he's absolutely correct. I think that somebody can say uh that I do not morally support this candidate, but for my own well-being, I will vote for the candidate because everything else is so horrible.

[00:49:33]I generally wouldn't do that, but I do think >> with. He said voting with, but okay, maybe it means voting for. I I I tend to go in the opposite direction, but but okay. In my in my personal life and what and how I make my decisions, I do too. I just I just think that there is a distinction. Okay. But this is But this is the same thing that many people Sorry, I know you want to get on with this. But, this is the distinction that many people make with Trump, including Bernstein. It's like, "I don't agree with him. He's a flawed hero, but he's better than the left, so >> No, no. Bernstein has gone further. No, they No, Bernstein has gone further.

[00:50:08]I've and I've never criticized a single person for voting for Trump. I've I've criticized them for supporting him and defending him. There is a distinction where people out of their own self-interest might feel or think that they should vote this way even though because it's the best option they have.

[00:50:24]>> of two evils. Right. Okay, can you talk about the Tea Party now, please? Yeah, but you you can start since it's your pet project right now. Go ahead. What do you mean my pet project? I sent you the articles. I do that every day and You're inflamed. You're inflamed.

[00:50:36]>> I'm not inflamed. I've been wanting to get to it, but every time I do, you want to keep going with this.

[00:50:40]>> You're inflamed. So, Yeah, let's talk about the Tea Party. I remember when the Tea Party first came about and, you know, Rick Santelli gave a big speech, "We need a Tea Party movement, some such thing." And they they started and they had a lot of um of the lingo of you know, freedom, debt cut, deficits.

[00:51:03]No, I agree with you, Randy, on that. Uh you know, freedom, capitalism, cut spending, that sort of thing. They also had some anti-immigrant stuff in there. They were never, as far as I can remember, advocating to end the war on drugs.

[00:51:19]Um and you also had the embarrassment where one of them said, "Keep your government hands off my Medicare."

[00:51:25]Um that's over. And that there was an article about this that the Matt with the defeat of Massie, they're gone. You know, the Tea Party is gone. And we could see, I mean, Mike Lee's gone Maga, Ted Cruz gone Maga, what's his name? Marco Rubio Rubio gone Maga. It's interesting that what's left of the Tea Party is the stuff that supports bigger government, you know, immigration restrictions.

[00:51:50]That that is is there.

[00:51:53]And I I fully believe that one of the big reasons a an a movement like the Tea Party doesn't make it is it's not based on anything. There's no principle holding it together. There's nothing that really binds them. There's no true north that that does that. And Mark, I'm not going to even give you a chance to talk.

[00:52:16]I'm just going to play this I want to play my question.

[00:52:19]Uh I asked the two uh debaters last night this question. I want to give a few minutes for their answers as well because I'm going to tie this all together. Love it.

[00:52:29]This is for both debaters.

[00:52:31]What moral standard serves to justify your view of what the government should be doing and therefore of whether the government should even be taking in more revenues?

[00:52:43]Uh taking in more revenue. It sounds as though that's kind of a nasty question.

[00:52:49]Love it you, Natasha.

[00:52:52]So, I actually think this is like kind of a deep normative question on which members of this audience likely have different views. And we talked a little bit, Adam and I, about the nature of how different a Scandinavian social safety net looks than the United States system.

[00:53:15]And how the way that that exists is through a tax system that just fundamentally raises much more revenue than we do.

[00:53:24]I think a way I'll answer your question is in the following dimension, though maybe you'll find it unsatisfactory.

[00:53:33]I feel a bit like we can have debates about whether or not we want to do even more as a government than we do today about whether or not we feel okay about the fact that one of the things that happened in the first two years of the Biden administration when I was there is we lifted 11 million kids out of poverty by making the child tax credit fully refundable only to a year later throw those kids back into poverty when that one year refundability of the child tax credit expired such that those families didn't have those dollars to put food on the table for their children.

[00:54:13]Even if you don't want to do investments like that, even if you don't want the United States to be like Japan where they have real high-speed rail that's like amazing and works relative to the United States where by the way, um Mike, I commute uh between New Haven and New York, the time that train takes has actually gotten longer in the last 40 years, not shorter. We can debate whether or not you actually want the government to make more investments like that, but a point that I think is important is that even if you don't want it to do anything else, even if you only want it to do what it is doing today, even if we do Adam's spending cuts, whatever his design is structured and I'm curious to hear more about it, the demographics in this country, the fact that the labor force is going to shrink and we are going to have more elderly people, the fact that the Social Security and Medicare trust funds are approaching expiration, we are just in a situation where base case our revenue needs are greater than they have been in the last few decades.

[00:55:25]And by the way, we are collecting less revenue in part because what we did over the course of the last decade is changed the the tax rate very meaningfully and shift it downwards such that we collect even less from those holders of capital than we have in recent history. And so, I feel like my answer to you a bit is I have a normative prior that I want a government that is able to serve the people and it currently isn't doing that to the extent I wish it was, so we need more revenue, but even if you disagree with me and think it is what it should, then our revenue needs are larger and if you disagree with me and you think Grover Norquist flushed it down the bathtub, then I agree with you, then none of us have to pay into this system.

[00:56:20]Any comment from you, Adam?

[00:56:22]I think the the example of Amtrak is an interesting one in that I certainly if that's our example of what government is doing and we might want to invest more in it, I certainly want a whole lot less of whatever whatever the government is doing to run Amtrak.

[00:56:41]But beside that flippant point, the my priors are that the government doesn't have a claim on any any of your money including mine and that's in conflict with the fact that I'm I'm I guess I'm not an anarcho-capitalist and that I think that there we need to that there there is some some court function and some limited defense capability that is not offense in the way that we're we're doing today might require some limited federal resources, but beyond that very low constitutionally limited government that that there is no claim on additional on the government taking an additional dime from anyone whatever your income level and and we are well way way beyond that point to the fact to the point that we should be cutting taxes and spending across the board.

[00:57:33]Um I want to make one tangentially related point on on the tax cuts over the last couple of years that Natasha made that we've been shifting that we've been doing regressive tax cuts and over time and we're taking less there's less of a tax burden on capital now. Um this is a story that's told about the 2017 tax cuts and the 2025 tax cuts. All right.

[00:57:55]If you've noticed >> Michael, was there a was there an answer there?

[00:57:58]>> No.

[00:57:59]>> [laughter] >> No, there wasn't. And that's kind of my point is that both the person opposing billionaires, the person on my side, and the person that wants the billionaires to pay more taxes, neither one of them, despite making moral claims all throughout the debate, they couldn't answer that simple question.

[00:58:23]That's what separates me.

[00:58:27]Let me not even say us as a broader movement. Although I will will include Mark. I mean I I I [ __ ] it, us. The people that are on my side.

[00:58:35]Having moral principles by which to judge the concretes in our politics.

[00:58:44]When you don't have them, you end up talking like those people.

[00:58:49]You end up being a Tea Party supporter who says keep your government hands off my Medicare. You end up being somebody who in one month calls Hitler Donald Trump Hitler, calls the ICE the Gestapo, and cheers on when the courts on constitutional grounds strike Trump down.

[00:59:10]But then when it goes to a war that you support, all that other stuff doesn't matter any longer.

[00:59:17]True north.

[00:59:19]Principles.

[00:59:21]We need them.

[00:59:22]If we can't win with them, we sure as hell can't win without them.

[00:59:28]All right, that's it for me.

[00:59:29]>> Michael, Michael, that is the capitalist thought of the day. That was great.

[00:59:35]I I'll allow it.

[00:59:36]>> You can't win with them, you can't win without them.

[00:59:40]Please go to American Capitalist Party.org and donate, become a part of the change, folks. We need to reassert principles in this political game. Michael, you're going to have to talk a little bit more cuz my dog's going crazy.

[00:59:54]All right, let me um I wanted to see about the questions from the other day. See what we've got. We're up to 849 subscribers, by the way.

[01:00:03]That's awesome.

[01:00:06]That is awesome.

[01:00:08]Let's see if anybody answered the question from the other day.

[01:00:17]Oh, it was about hobbies. Uh Lee Frazier likes doll customizing.

[01:00:22]Uh Kira Felix would like to collect vinyl records. Jenna Clean, bat ranching.

[01:00:30]So, that's what we got. Uh the question that I have for the audience is the same question that Mark asked to me earlier.

[01:00:39]Is there any politician out there, and it doesn't have to be elected office, could just be a hopeful, that would uh that you could support in principle? Is there a politician out there you could support in principle?

[01:00:55]And with that, we'll turn it over to Mark. Remember, 2:30 today, Eastern Time, Everyday Ethics. 3:15 Eastern Time, Crime, Correction, and Culture. Okay, go ahead, Mark.

[01:01:04]I'm going to try to get this in between barks. My dog is going crazy. Uh folks, you got 23 hours to check your premises, so please do me that favor. Check your premises, babies. Peace.