The Inquisitive Human Nature in How Did It End? | The Swiftie and The Scholar

Added: 2026-05-22

[00:00:04]Welcome to the Swifty and the Scholar, the podcast where we examine the lyrics, lore, and literary legacy of Taylor Swift. I am Angela McDow, the Swifty.

[00:00:15]>> Come on, y'all. I am Dr. Jerry Coach, the scholar.

[00:00:18]>> Oh, he's got some energy today.

[00:00:22]>> I do. I do.

[00:00:24]>> How you doing?

[00:00:25]>> I am good. I am excited about this song.

[00:00:27]Oh, >> okay. Did you hear the excitement in my voice?

[00:00:30]>> Yeah.

[00:00:31]>> Yeah.

[00:00:31]>> Um, this song was chosen by our patrons.

[00:00:34]>> Hey patrons, thank you for choosing the song.

[00:00:36]>> Yes. So, this time, so the first time they chose, um, we let them vote via like a March Madness tournament, like a bracket tournament.

[00:00:44]>> And this time I had people choose their favorite or not not necessarily their favorite, but the track five remaining that we hadn't covered yet that they most wanted to hear you talk about.

[00:00:56]>> Yeah. And it was this one.

[00:00:57]>> Yes. And so this is a track five if you count the tortured poets department as two separate um albums because she called it double album. So we're counting the second half as a second album. This is track five of that album.

[00:01:10]>> So this is track five number two.

[00:01:12]>> Right. The first track five of Tortured Post Department is So Long London.

[00:01:16]>> Oh, okay. Have you noticed I've been putting more comments in our Patreon site?

[00:01:21]>> You were all over it.

[00:01:23]>> It's so fun. I did not I did not think that media would be this fun. You know, I've been off I've started on Facebook and I got students who always wanted to >> jump in and friend me and stuff and I thought, "Okay, I can't do this. It just violates all kinds of ethics things."

[00:01:40]>> Um, and so, uh, you know, I'm not on Facebook, but I occasionally on my, uh, other thingy and and I like >> Instagram.

[00:01:50]>> Instagram. And uh thank you for feeding me the the name of the uh the thingy.

[00:01:58]But uh yeah, it's it's fun every now and then to comment and people say stuff and I go, "Oh yeah, that's really interesting. I love what people say interpretively. It's it's fun."

[00:02:08]>> Yeah. Just getting other people's the hive minds thoughts.

[00:02:11]>> That's right.

[00:02:12]>> Okay. So today we're covering How Did It End as discussed in track five from the tortured poets department, the anthology. Um, this was a written and produced by Taylor and Aaron Destner.

[00:02:23]Um, kind of a common theme that we've been seeing throughout the past several episodes. Lots of Aaron Destner.

[00:02:29]>> Um, yeah, that's kind of all I have.

[00:02:32]This one is, uh, you know, whenever I saw the track title, it was different than I thought it was going to be. So, what did you think of the title?

[00:02:44]>> Well, may I ask you a question first?

[00:02:46]>> Yes. When she sings it, does she sing d y i n g? Yeah.

[00:02:51]>> Oh, she does. Okay. Yeah. Well, I mean, it was hyphenated and capitalized.

[00:02:56]>> And so, I kind of assumed it that's the way it was going to be sung. Yeah.

[00:03:00]>> I also have a prediction.

[00:03:02]>> Okay.

[00:03:02]>> About the way it's going to sound.

[00:03:04]>> Okay. Great.

[00:03:05]>> But I'm not going to tell you that right now. I'm going to hold you in suspense.

[00:03:09]>> Okay.

[00:03:09]>> Like being in a cage.

[00:03:11]>> Stay Stay tuned for Uncle Jerry's predictions. My prediction, I have not been wrong yet.

[00:03:18]>> That's true. That's very true.

[00:03:21]>> Well, I've only made like three, so it's 10%. Um, okay. So, uh, the the title, how did it end? Of course, has a general reference pronoun in the word it.

[00:03:35]>> There is no noun antecedent. And so, it causes the reader to ask, what is it?

[00:03:42]Well, knowing that this is a Taylor Swift and Aaron Destner song, um I I speculated that it was some romantic engagement.

[00:03:52]>> Oh, >> I know. I know.

[00:03:55]>> Was a far swing.

[00:03:58]>> I know. It's like she could have been talking about a baseball game.

[00:04:04]How did it end?

[00:04:05]>> Yeah. Yeah. Football game.

[00:04:07]>> Could be.

[00:04:07]>> Yeah.

[00:04:07]>> Yeah. Boy, that fourth quarter comeback.

[00:04:10]>> Yeah. Uh, no, it's not about that. No, >> no, pretty much about about her.

[00:04:14]>> Yes.

[00:04:15]>> Um, so this is I'm going to give you the literary device once again. Autofiction.

[00:04:22]>> Okay.

[00:04:22]>> Right. So, >> yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:04:24]>> Yeah. She creates a kind of fictional story, a narrative. Um, but this is really about her life. So, it's kind of autobiographical fiction. We mash that up and call it autofiction. Um, and so we get right into it.

[00:04:41]>> Yes.

[00:04:42]>> Verse one, we hereby conduct the postmortem.

[00:04:47]Okay.

[00:04:48]>> Who's the speaker? It's it's a collective we or an imperial we.

[00:04:53]>> Um, so again, she forces the reader to ask questions. And so I'm going to say this is actually an engaging way to write.

[00:05:02]>> Okay.

[00:05:02]>> Right. Yeah. Uh, I mean, you know, in a in a standard edited uh, paper, you're not supposed to do things like use general reference pronouns with no noun as no noun anticedence. I would take a point off for that, >> but um, you know, creative writers use these techniques in order to engage the reader, >> right?

[00:05:22]>> So, I'm engaged. I want to know what is it and I want to know who is we. And then we get to the post-mortem and I think that we know who we are. Yeah.

[00:05:31]>> Right. a postmortem is conducted by a forensic pathologist >> or it's conducted by a medical examiner or a coroner. So, you know, immediately we set up this narrative structure >> where the um the coroner forensic pathologist is speaking. We're in a coroner's court.

[00:05:51]>> Okay.

[00:05:51]>> Or in a doctor's office or you know wherever they hold a um a postmortem exam and someone has died.

[00:05:59]>> Yes.

[00:06:00]>> Right. So, who has died? You know, um, he was a hot house flower to my outdoorsman.

[00:06:09]>> I love that.

[00:06:10]>> Yeah, >> it took me a bit. It took me a sec.

[00:06:13]>> That is fun. I think it's a fun line.

[00:06:15]Um, you know, obviously having read through the poem now many times I I, you know, understand we we start off with this fictional setting of the postmorte exam with the speaker being the forensic pathologist or coroner. Um, but very quickly we realize that's just a metaphor and we're talking about the her one of her breakups. Oh no, never have suspected it. So the it was her romantic relationship.

[00:06:45]Um, so we have a series of metaphors all strung together with a single focusing artifice around a post-mortem. And when you extend a metaphor throughout the entirety of a work, we call that >> a conceit.

[00:06:57]>> This is a conceit. Yes. Conceit ce.

[00:07:02]Not meaning stuck up, but meaning an extended metaphor.

[00:07:07]So she calls him a hot house flower and she is an outdoorsman. So why a hot house flower? Well, um, you know, a hot house flower is supposed to be kept indoors. Um, it's something that can be difficult to raise, finicky to grow. Um, you know, clearly whoever this person was was someone who, uh, didn't match her outdoorsman style. You know, she's she's gender bending a little bit by calling herself an outdoors man.

[00:07:35]>> Yeah.

[00:07:35]>> Um, but I think that she's also making a comment on the nature of his his own masculinity.

[00:07:41]Um.

[00:07:42]>> Oh, interesting.

[00:07:43]>> Yeah. Um, and certainly he is a hot house flower because he is uh more delicate and in a relationship, you know, I think that that's a metaphor for um he needs to be cared for a great deal. He's a little bit needy.

[00:08:00]>> Um and and you know, we can deal with needy personalities.

[00:08:04]>> Um I mean, I have a little bit of a needy personality. I'll admit that. Um, you know, I like to hold hands. You know, when we go to a movie, I like to reach over and touch my wife's elbow or hold her hand or that kind of thing. So, yeah. I mean, but you know, after a while, >> yeah, there's certain there's there's a line.

[00:08:28]>> There is a line. Yeah. It's like, leave me alone. Yeah.

[00:08:31]>> Or where are you going? I'm out. Yeah.

[00:08:36]Um, so I liked the line, Jim, because of the the juxositional rhetoric of hot flour versus outdoorsman.

[00:08:44]>> Yeah, me too.

[00:08:45]>> Our malades were such that we could not cure them. So she's characterizing the differences between them as illnesses.

[00:08:53]>> Uh, that would be a metaphor, right? So um >> Well, yeah. And we're we're we're conducting autopsy. It died. So it had these this is what killed it. So the metaphor slides right into this whole conceit of the >> postmortem.

[00:09:08]>> So I already like this, >> you know, can you tell it's going to get a good grade when it comes to literary devices?

[00:09:14]>> Yeah, it's got good it's got good poetics.

[00:09:16]>> It really does have good poetics. And we haven't even talked about the rhyme. Um so yeah, the the malady's a metaphor, the curing him is a metaphor. Um you know, they both work well into the post-mortem. And so a touch that was my birthright became foreign. So you know initially the touch of him seemed like it was something that she was born to.

[00:09:41]Um you know there is a a birthright is something that you you know are naturally um given naturally entitled to.

[00:09:51]>> You know it could be a birthright of inheritance. You know like you inherit a crown or you inherit a fortune or that kind of thing. All of this is what she initially thought, but it became foreign, anathema to her. Um, okay. So, and then we go back and look at the uh the rhyme.

[00:10:10]>> Yes.

[00:10:11]>> And you go, "Wow." Uh, postmortem outdoorsman.

[00:10:15]Um, and usually I don't like the the two-word rhyme, but this really works for me. And then them. So, postmortem then outdoorsmen.

[00:10:24]>> Uh, foreign. So you see how they all are um both, you know, alliterative obviously in in the context of rhyme and not always using the same vowels, but nevertheless they rhyme.

[00:10:37]>> Yeah, I I liked it a lot. That that first verse, the first stanza for me is a four-line hit.

[00:10:43]>> Agreed. Yeah.

[00:10:44]>> Okay. Uh then we get to the chorus >> and we we switch um narrators in a kind of a radical direction. So she she creates this image of the forensic pathologist getting close.

[00:11:00]>> Yeah. You're like in like the basement of a hospital or something, you know, like in the morg >> and then all of a sudden in the chorus we are like not that we're at the opposite of that.

[00:11:10]>> Yes. We're out in the open. It's a carnival barker, >> you know. Come one, come all. It's happening again. You know, so it's like the carnival barker, the circus. Um, you know, these people can be really irritating sometimes.

[00:11:26]>> Um, I do love to go to the the state fair, uh, the Texas State Fair if you've never experienced it.

[00:11:31]>> Absolutely huge and, you know, mildly obnoxious and ridiculously expensive, >> but so fun.

[00:11:37]>> And so fun.

[00:11:39]>> Such good food.

[00:11:40]>> Yeah. Yes. And um you know so I've been going since I was relative you know I've been going for a while now >> just just a few years.

[00:11:49]>> Yeah like eight or 10 years. And um and a couple of decades or four behind before that. Um back in the day they actually did have like a freak show. Yeah. And there was a guy a carnival barker. Uh yes I'm talking to you. You come on in. You know, it was like, "Oh, dude, I just want to go throw darts at balloons."

[00:12:11]>> Yeah. I just want to win that giant stuffed animal over there.

[00:12:14]>> Yeah. Yes. I really don't want to see the wolf lady.

[00:12:18]>> Oh, God.

[00:12:19]>> Um, and that's the feeling that you get.

[00:12:21]I think it's it's very successful and a really fun shift of narrative structure here. So, um, the empathetic hunger ascends. So, it it's happening again.

[00:12:33]So, it must have happened before. It's not the first time. Mhm.

[00:12:37]>> And that performative empathy that people have for me has descended one more time.

[00:12:45]Um, so clearly it's about a breakup and you get all these people saying, "Oh, poor Taylor."

[00:12:52]>> Yeah.

[00:12:52]>> Let's talk about her.

[00:12:54]>> But it's hunger. It's empathetic hunger because we got to know. We need to know, >> right? It's And that is it's, you know, she's using a metaphor, right? She she's comparing this almost to food. You know, this is the kind of thing that feeds the media. It feeds her fans. It feeds her critics. It feeds people who like her, right? It feeds everyone.

[00:13:16]>> Yeah.

[00:13:17]>> Um, so here's my prediction for how this is going to sound.

[00:13:20]>> Okay.

[00:13:21]>> This song, >> if I'm wrong, I'm going to be really embarrassed.

[00:13:26]>> You're allowed to be wrong one time.

[00:13:29]>> I I wrote it down. I said piano with descending baseline.

[00:13:35]>> Okay. Yeah, it feels like because this guy's dead and he's going down and then she literally in the sixth line says the hunger descends.

[00:13:46]>> Okay. Okay.

[00:13:47]>> Right. So I just feel it going bum bum bum bum.

[00:13:51]>> I you know I honestly like can't even tell you if you're right or wrong, but I feel like you are correct.

[00:13:56]>> I'm I'm hoping. I don't know. I don't know, but I I haven't heard.

[00:14:00]>> Yeah. You know what? I think I think you Okay. Yeah, we'll get there.

[00:14:03]>> We'll get there. Right. We'll hear. Um, but yes, I so I do have to say I I love playing this game.

[00:14:11]Um, you know, since since not only have I not heard the songs, but you frequently withhold them from me.

[00:14:17]>> Sorry.

[00:14:18]>> Um, yeah. In our in our last um recording, we were watching the store and at the end of the at the end of the song, she said, "Oh." And she reached up and stops it and I go, "Why? Why'd you stop it? What's that?" It's another song.

[00:14:31]>> She just matches them up. It's like turn it off.

[00:14:34]>> Oh, I'm not allowed. Okay. Well, >> so yes, that's my big prediction. Okay.

[00:14:39]>> Uh kind of a descending line for the piano because this feels like one of her piano solo type things. And yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:47]>> Because it's an ending. She tends to like to lament over those and and a piano can be a soulful instrument, right? And she doesn't play trumpet. Um >> so that's Yeah, that's not that's not much of a prediction really. Um >> we'll count it.

[00:15:02]>> Okay. So yeah, um she's by the way, I wrote down um Come one, come all, Carnival Barker, Circus, um It's Happening Again, and then I put song by Alltime Low. There's a group called Alltime Low.

[00:15:18]>> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:19]>> Yeah. Probably.

[00:15:20]>> I know them.

[00:15:20]>> Do you?

[00:15:21]>> Yeah.

[00:15:21]>> Pretty obscure.

[00:15:22]>> Yeah.

[00:15:22]>> Um and I did like the phrase empathetic hunger. You know, for me, for those of you who listen, you know, um you know, I talk about Percy Shel's use of that expression in his um poetic crit criticism. He says the one well-chosen word.

[00:15:39]>> Yeah.

[00:15:39]>> Um this is a well-chosen phrase, empathetic hunger. Oh, we just love you.

[00:15:44]We want to be empathetic with you. You know, uh tell us more. I'm eating this up.

[00:15:49]>> Uhhuh. Yeah. I mean, it kind of goes along with the last song we talked about. Um you know, it's the town.

[00:15:54]They're, you know, the vipers dressed in empaths clothing. While some of it is like coming somebody coming from somebody like me.

[00:16:01]>> Mhm.

[00:16:02]>> It is like I am like incredibly empathetic. Like I have like a weird, you know, parasocial relationship with Taylor and I'm like that's my best friend, you know? I want her to be happy, but at the same time I'm like, well, when's the album so I can learn all the details of what happened here, you know, where I can start piecing it together. And so it's sometimes it's, you know, it's well-meaning, but it's still like hunger for more, more more of her, you know.

[00:16:28]>> So she still hasn't reached out to you.

[00:16:30]>> Stop it.

[00:16:33]>> I mean, I she's asked me not to share, so >> which in fact is the next line.

[00:16:41]>> Yes.

[00:16:42]>> We'll tell no one.

[00:16:43]>> Yes.

[00:16:44]>> And then very ironically, very satirically, she says, except all of our friends.

[00:16:49]>> Right. It's like, "Oh, we got new dirt."

[00:16:52]Um, yeah, she's broken up again with somebody, so we're going to spread it again.

[00:16:57]>> Um, we must know how did it end. Okay.

[00:17:03]So, yeah, she breaks up with somebody and the whole world, even her fans, you know, even those like you who love her the most, >> you just got to know. You got to know why. And it does become like a circus, like a carnival, like a spectacle. Like because the second that that um you know that news is released that like Taylor and whoever have broken up, it's like >> 1 million headlines, right?

[00:17:28]>> Everyone's talking about it. There's Tik Toks, there's tweets, there's all the things, you know, and it is literally like this circus life and you know, and she talks about in Who's Afraid of Little O Me? Like the circus life made me mean. Like y'all are crazy. even the the well-meaning people. Y'all are a little crazy and you've turned my life into a spectacle.

[00:17:48]>> You know, it's funny because I was reviewing um the songs we had covered, you know, in my in the book. I keep all these notes >> in the in the song in this book and um I was reviewing it this week and I ran across that song again and I thought that's such a fun poem, >> you know.

[00:18:04]>> I love that one. Yeah.

[00:18:06]>> So, yeah. And I mentioned last time that I actually had a a church lady come up to me at church now a couple of weeks ago and you know she asked me if I know that if they're going to have a baby right away and I'm going >> I didn't I can't text her.

[00:18:24]>> I know. I know. She only calls me and and she asks me not to share. So I have no idea. Um >> it's funny that you're like the church's resident swifty now.

[00:18:34]>> I know. Isn't it the truth? Um, but that's great.

[00:18:40]So, yeah, she she says, um, we're not going to tell anybody except our all of our friends, not just our best friend.

[00:18:48]All of them.

[00:18:48]>> Everyone everyone we know.

[00:18:49]>> Everyone gets to know.

[00:18:51]>> Um, and we want to know how and why, which as the end of the song plays out, she does too, >> you know, and and how do we know these things? But we'll get there. Um, verse two. Can you tell I'm having a fun with this song? I mean, this was such a um I don't know. It was it was lighter and playful even though it is sadly about a breakup and about how we just seem to feed on that kind of news.

[00:19:17]>> Yeah. She fills it with such fun imagery though.

[00:19:19]>> She does.

[00:19:20]>> Yeah.

[00:19:20]>> Um so verse two, um we were blind to unforeseen circumstances which um is a kind of humorous redundancy. It is oxymoronic. Mhm.

[00:19:34]>> Uh that is an oxymoron. Um because you're if you're blind, everything is unforeseen, >> right?

[00:19:42]>> You know, so we didn't know. Well, you know, maybe she didn't know. Maybe she didn't see immediately that he was a hot ass flower and she was an outdoorsman.

[00:19:52]You know, why in the world are you worried about it?

[00:19:55]>> We learned the right steps to different dances. Okay. Favorite line.

[00:20:01]>> Okay. I think it's mine, too. Is it?

[00:20:03]>> Yeah.

[00:20:03]>> Yeah.

[00:20:04]>> It's so fun.

[00:20:05]>> I think it's fun. Um, you know, >> and it takes me back to Peter where she says, um, >> we learn we What does she say? And something about under the same moon in different galaxies, >> right? Yes. Yeah. I love that image of her flying one direction, Peter flying another.

[00:20:23]>> Um, it's kind of the same thing, but I love the metaphor of the dance. I mean, it's an old metaphor to compare dancing to a love relationship or se or you know, sexual activity. Um, that's why they they just barely let you do dances down in Baylor.

[00:20:40]>> Yeah.

[00:20:41]They used to definitely not >> for 99 years. Yeah. You could not dance on campus.

[00:20:47]>> Yeah.

[00:20:47]>> University of Baylor.

[00:20:50]>> We had a dance my freshman year.

[00:20:51]>> Oh, of course you did.

[00:20:53]>> It was off campus, though.

[00:20:56]>> Yeah. You went to the south side of Waco so you could drink beer, didn't you?

[00:20:59]>> No, I didn't like beer.

[00:21:01]>> No. Wait, what did No. So the line is we learned the right steps to different dance. It's a metaphor. Uh she loves to use juxapositional rhetoric. Um you know, so and I love this image that that he's learning a wall and she's learning a two-step >> and then they try to put it together and that just ain't going to work.

[00:21:23]>> It's not going to happen.

[00:21:24]>> No, it's not. I mean, and actually it gave me a a a concrete visual image. I imagine Yeah, it really did. I imagine two people at a dance and one of them is trying to, you know, to do a waltz and the other one is trying to to do a um you know, a twostep.

[00:21:43]>> Yeah. Like a line dance or something.

[00:21:45]>> A line dance. Yeah. They're kicking and boot scooting and and instead this guy is flowing to three beats per measure.

[00:21:53]Um it's just not gonna work.

[00:21:55]>> Yeah.

[00:21:56]>> But uh but poetically it works perfectly. I love it.

[00:21:58]>> Yes.

[00:22:00]>> Yeah. And fell victim to interloperous glances. So you know people who probably shouldn't have cared or shouldn't have been there or shouldn't have seen kept looking over looking over and watching them as they frayed apart.

[00:22:14]>> Uh lost the game of chance. So now we're comparing love to a game. You know, again, that's kind of an old metaphor, but it's fun here because she uses the cliche, "What are the chances in using the cliched metaphor?" Love is a game of chance.

[00:22:32]>> Yeah. Typical Taylor.

[00:22:33]>> It is typical Taylor. Yeah. You remember that list of typical Taylor I made? This is one of them. Metaphors that are truncated or changed or jammed with other metaphor cliches. Excuse me.

[00:22:46]cliches that are truncated, jammed or or made with other metaphors, altered in some way. Um, she's doing it here again and it's it works.

[00:22:55]>> Yeah.

[00:22:56]>> Yeah. Soon they'll go home to their husband's smug cuz they know they can trust him. Well, of course they can.

[00:23:06]They have their happy little home and their happy little life, don't they?

[00:23:11]>> Poor that poor girl just can't get it together.

[00:23:14]>> Yes.

[00:23:14]>> Thank God that's not me. I better call Edna and tell her. So they feverishly call their cousins.

[00:23:22]You know, they're feeling, you know, safe and better than, >> right?

[00:23:28]>> Um and so let's talk about um Lon and the creation of the others, Fuko. And no, okay, we don't have to do that. Uh there are there are a number of schools of philosophy and psychology that say we love to create others and that othering is what >> Oh. Oh, okay. Right. Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:23:46]>> Yeah. So, my life is this and they're that and mine's clearly superior.

[00:23:52]>> You know, you can't just say I have a good life.

[00:23:55]>> You have to say mine is good and better than theirs.

[00:23:59]>> Yeah. Take it up a little a little extra notch, >> right?

[00:24:01]>> Yeah.

[00:24:02]>> So, um you know, again, not forgetting um other elements of poetics like rhyme, circumstances, dances, really nice rhyme. uh glances, chances, husbands, him um and and you hear how they kind of resonate without being direct rhyme and then cousins.

[00:24:24]>> Yeah. Husbands and cousins is not a thing that you would think.

[00:24:28]>> Yeah.

[00:24:29]>> Could work there.

[00:24:29]>> Yeah. I mean, it's a kind of slant rhyme primarily based on the um alliterative ends, >> but it really works as rhyme and it just hangs that whole second verse together.

[00:24:40]It is beautifully done. Can you hear a very very high grade for the poetics? I mean, I I really can see why the Patreon folks chose it.

[00:24:47]>> Me, too. Um, and I I love the way that, you know, you you know, I think I would learn by now, and maybe I will now going forward now that I'm saying this, but I love the way that verse two sounds when you're when you're listening to it. And I'm now realizing it literally is just because of those rhymes.

[00:25:06]>> Yes.

[00:25:06]>> You know, and okay, so I have to I have to be forthcoming and honest.

[00:25:12]>> Okay.

[00:25:13]>> And say I read through this a couple of times and I did have a a momentary sigh and say it's another breakup song.

[00:25:22]>> I knew you were going to especially when I gave you these two back toback. I was like he's going to be exhausted by this, but I think he's going to find some gems in there eventually.

[00:25:29]>> Yeah. you know, I mean, I mean, come on.

[00:25:32]Empathetic hunger.

[00:25:33]>> Yeah, >> it's pretty great. And that image of the right steps to different dances. That is so fun. Um, and then just the poetics of what she does with metaphors and cliches and how she spins out the conceits and the rhyming is just superior in this one, you know, and I do from time to time say, "Oh, that's a questionable rhyme." Um I and I've never actually called her out for for having a bad rhyme.

[00:25:59]>> Yeah.

[00:26:00]>> Um >> Yeah. You just question them.

[00:26:01]>> Yeah.

[00:26:02]>> The jackles and the hackles.

[00:26:03]>> Jackles and hackles. It does kind of make me laugh though. Um but yeah, but they're just a little hard. Um but this is really superior work. Yeah. So yeah.

[00:26:14]Uh the chorus.

[00:26:16]>> Yes.

[00:26:17]>> Guess who we ran into at the shops.

[00:26:19]Okay. So now she's called her cousins.

[00:26:21]>> Yes.

[00:26:21]>> And all her cousins friends. Um Actually, I was reminded from a song from um Gilbert and Sullivan where he said um it's from HMS Penaphor. Uh their cousins who are numbered in the dozens.

[00:26:35]>> Oh, fun. That's a fun rhyme, too.

[00:26:37]>> Here's a fun rhyme. So, they called all all their cousins who are numbered in the dozens.

[00:26:42]>> Dozens of cousins.

[00:26:43]>> That's right. Guess who we ran into at the shops? Walking in circles.

[00:26:48]Yeah. Um like she was lost. Didn't you hear? They called it all off one gasp and then how did it end? So we get both sides of the conversation.

[00:27:01]>> You know, it's like we're listening to Bye-Bye Birdie.

[00:27:04]>> Yeah. She's on the phone. We're just listening.

[00:27:06]>> We're all on the phone. Morning Glory.

[00:27:08]It's I don't know if if you guys know that. Uh Bye-Bye Birdie. I was in that musical.

[00:27:14]>> Of course you were.

[00:27:14]>> Yeah. I was I played Conrad Birdie. um you know the the singer of so she's walking in circles. Okay. So literally walking in circles means you're lost.

[00:27:28]>> Uhhuh.

[00:27:28]>> But you know when you walk in a circle you wind up right back where you began.

[00:27:35]Right.

[00:27:35]>> Mhm.

[00:27:36]>> So in her romantic love life she seems to just keep winding up right where she began.

[00:27:43]>> Well that's interesting.

[00:27:44]>> Yeah.

[00:27:45]>> That's fun. I think it is too. Yeah. So I I kept thinking about circles as having different meanings, right?

[00:27:52]>> Yeah.

[00:27:53]>> Um so she's lost but also she lost her lover.

[00:27:59]>> So the word lost has two meanings. The word circles has two meanings.

[00:28:04]>> She was lost like every every time, >> right?

[00:28:07]>> That come one come all it's happening again. Again, she lost that and she's lost. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:12]>> Yeah. So, I keep I keep using the word ambiguity, but I I think I'm going to have to say I think sometimes with Taylor Swift, it's misapplied. I think it's intentional multity of meaning, right? Okay.

[00:28:27]>> So, I I think we really are supposed to think of walking in circles as being pointless ambling, >> but I think we're also supposed to remember that if you walk in a circle, you wind up right where you began, you know, looking for a guy. And if you are lost, you are literally, you know, bereft of direction. But if you are lost, you have lost him again. Yeah. And I think that's intentional. These these aren't accidental moments in her writing.

[00:28:55]>> So again, are we giving her a really high uh grade for the poetics?

[00:29:01]Yeah, >> I think so.

[00:29:03]>> And and once again, we have this repetition of the last line of the chorus. How did it end? Right. Everyone wants to know how it ended. Um, well, she does, too.

[00:29:15]>> Yeah. This is like, you know, talking a few weeks ago about the prophecy. Um, some of the comments, there were a few comments that really made me go like, "Oh, wait. We didn't like really pick up on that when she said it was written, I got cursed like Eve got bitten." A lot of people were calling out that like those two lines to them makes it makes them think that Taylor is saying I I wrote this prophecy for myself >> because I started out writing like my career has been based on >> writing these songs about love and losing love. And so that is and because I chose this career, I wrote this prophecy for me never being able to like find a relationship. And then um that makes me think of because she has written the prophecies such as like this relationship's going to end and then I'm going to have to write about it. She has made us have that empathetic hunger and made us ask that question.

[00:30:14]>> So she has she has cooked that meal and feeding to us. Yeah. Feeding it to us.

[00:30:19]>> Yeah. So, it's like she's almost like I kind of feel like this is all my fault because I have trained people to like be in interested in my relationships and how they fall apart, >> right?

[00:30:30]>> Yeah.

[00:30:31]>> Well, you know, and at the at the end of last week, I talked about the um how she uses a series of romantic tropes in song after song after song. I think that's got to be intentional, right? I think that she is she's click clicking them off. She's applying them to her own life. She's inviting us listeners, readers, um to also apply them to our lives. You know, just like I said, I could see these people dancing >> um to different steps to, you know, using the right steps to to different dances. Um you know, I think that's intentional.

[00:31:02]>> Yeah.

[00:31:03]>> Um okay, bridge. Yes. Are we breathing?

[00:31:06]>> Yes.

[00:31:07]>> Um say it once again with feeling.

[00:31:12]>> I love that. It's like, you know, the the lack of earnestness um is Yeah. re retell. It's it's like trying to retell life or life's circumstances as if it were a performance, >> right? You know, so I mean, like I said, I've been in a play, I've been in a musical. And and sometimes you have to go through five or six performances and you just have to remember every night it's a fresh audience. Every night you psych yourself up to giving them your most original, you know, your mo your freshest interpretation.

[00:31:46]>> Yeah.

[00:31:47]>> It's so fake.

[00:31:48]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:49]>> You know, um so yeah, >> we're all just acting.

[00:31:52]>> Yeah. It's just acting. Um how the death rattle rattle breathing silenced as the soul was leaving the deflation of our dreams.

[00:32:05]Then she repeats, "Leaving me bereft and reeling my beloved ghost in me."

[00:32:13]And you know who I thought of when I was reading these?

[00:32:15]>> I thought of Edgar Allan Poe.

[00:32:17]>> Okay.

[00:32:18]>> Um, you know, Edgar Alan Poe has I mean, just read The Raven or read Uloom or read Annabelle Lee, you know. Um that the kind of rolling rhyme you know how the death rattle breathing silenced as the soul was leaving and silenced as the soul the illiterative >> so good >> ele the deflation of our dreaming the D's leaving and and now we're starting the sentence with the same >> the ing >> yeah with the same rhyme we ended the previous line with >> bereft and reeling my beloved ghost and me. And then she almost trivializes all that by saying sitting in a tree. D Y I N G.

[00:33:08]>> Yeah.

[00:33:09]>> You know, I'm sure she doesn't sing it that way. Um but she >> Yeah, but it's like we're taking like a children's >> Yeah, it's that children's >> K I S I N G.

[00:33:20]>> Sitting in a tree. K I S S I N G. First came love, then came marriage. You know, it's like, yeah, children have this idealized version of the world. Um, you know, unfortunately, the rest of us have to live in reality, >> right?

[00:33:35]>> Um, but yes, I I actually got a little um Edgar Poe. Yeah. Because po I don't you know I don't know if he's a he's a great poet but he he does understand how to use poetics and he does know what asinance and rhyme and alliteration and all those those things work and his poetry is fun to read aloud.

[00:33:58]>> Okay.

[00:33:58]>> I think that's why kids love reading it you know I I mean kids I mean >> um junior high school teenagers >> right love reading it because it has a beautiful sound.

[00:34:08]>> Um this bridge has a beautiful sound.

[00:34:11]Yeah.

[00:34:12]>> Um, and it extends the conceit of the post-mortem, >> right? Yes.

[00:34:16]>> And it uses metaphorical referencing, the death, rattle, breathing, the last breath of the relationship. It's metaphor.

[00:34:26]>> And then it was silenced as the soul was leaving. You know, that moment, the soul leaving is that my last ounce of love that I ever had for him.

[00:34:36]>> It's metaphor.

[00:34:38]um the deflation of our dreaming. So they had dreams like we are gonna we are going to fill out that childhood sitting in a tree. K I S I N G >> you know first comes love then comes marriage. So you've got this little lock step sequence.

[00:34:56]>> Yeah.

[00:34:57]>> Um >> the same path that we talked about last time that you're supposed to travel down.

[00:35:01]>> That was our dreaming.

[00:35:02]>> Uhhuh.

[00:35:03]>> But all of that came to deflation. It's, you know, it's all like, and she uses this breath imagery and she does it really well and it starts in the previous stanza because in the chorus she says one gasp and then how did it end?

[00:35:19]>> Yeah.

[00:35:20]>> Right. So, we're gasping for air and then she says death rattle breathing that was silenced. The soul is leaving and then our lungs are deflating.

[00:35:33]So that the dreaming leaves us.

[00:35:36]>> So doesn't she work that whole notion of breath in?

[00:35:39]>> That's interesting. Yeah.

[00:35:40]>> Isn't that good? You know, and and breath >> it has such an extended metaphorical meaning in its own right, >> you know. So if you read ancient literature, if you read the Bible, um you know, there are lots of places where breath is a symbol for the spirit, the literally the soul.

[00:36:00]>> Okay.

[00:36:01]>> Okay. So um you know in spirit so the word breath um you know can comes from a Latin word that means um spiratus means spirit um >> like respirate >> like respiration.

[00:36:17]Yes. Or inspiration to have this the breath of God >> upon us. Right. Inspiration.

[00:36:27]Right. So >> I had no idea.

[00:36:29]>> Oh yeah. Yeah. So I mean poets have always asked where do where do great ideas come in in poetry in literature in fiction. Um you know Keats speculates on it in Hyperarian. He speculates on it in Ode to a Nightgale you know. So the question is how do great poets how do they discover these amazing phrases that inspire us you know and they have their own >> insp gives us the the life our breath. So that holy spirit spiratus right is this breath of life. It's the breath of God that fills us up and inspires us. Well, sorry.

[00:37:12]The deflation of our dreaming leaves me barereft and reeling. So, yep. That ship has sailed. That boy is dead.

[00:37:22]>> Yeah.

[00:37:22]>> And he is not breathing anymore. So once again, that that's kind of the reason why I wondered if if this was going to be a bum bum bum bum kind of a Yeah.

[00:37:31]>> sound because, you know, not only do we have this um thing about descending, but now we have deflation.

[00:37:38]>> Uhhuh. Yeah.

[00:37:39]>> Right.

[00:37:40]>> I'm only just now realizing that the relationship died. That's why we're having a postmortem, an autopsy.

[00:37:48]>> And then her and her beloved ghost are sitting in the tree. And the beloved ghost is the dead relationship >> or the or the guy.

[00:37:57]>> Yeah, that's what I put in my note is the memory of lost love.

[00:38:00]>> Okay.

[00:38:01]>> Yeah, it's the ghost. I mean >> I mean come on when you when you love someone.

[00:38:08]>> Yes, I'm going to mention Valentina.

[00:38:13]>> Lots of conversations about Valentina happening on Patreon if y'all are interested and you're not there yet.

[00:38:19]>> I know.

[00:38:21]So, I mean, poor Valentina. She's she's probably um happily married with grandkids and and I don't know, but yeah.

[00:38:30]>> Um it it's a great compliment to her that I still think of her.

[00:38:34]>> I have now memorialized her. Maybe I hope immortalized her.

[00:38:38]>> Oh my gosh. I actually need to like see if she's on Facebook. See if I can find her.

[00:38:42]>> No, >> I won't I won't say anything. I just want to see her. But it's so funny because I do I I remember the exhilaration of that relationship. I remember the absolute despondency when my best friend started dating her and kissing her in the back of the band bus.

[00:39:01]>> Can't believe anybody would do that to you behind the drums.

[00:39:04]>> I know the the those percussion kids, you know, percussionists are a little wild and they would stack the drums up in the back of the bus and then get behind them.

[00:39:13]>> You didn't want to know what was going on behind the drums. I don't think those that was happening on my band bus.

[00:39:17]>> No, the uh the parent chaperon nor any of the band directors wanted to know either.

[00:39:22]>> Just stay back there, please.

[00:39:23]>> Right.

[00:39:25]But uh yeah, it's that ghost of the relationship. Um yeah, the ghost of that lost love that I mean, we never really forget it, you know. I mean, you >> you you let it go in many ways and hopefully you let the pain of it go, but the memory of it remains. And then she almost um she gives a kind of wistful remembrance to the ghost of their expectations by sitting in a tree but instead of k i ss s iing g it's d y i n g it's dying.

[00:40:00]Uh what happened again?

[00:40:02]>> It h >> how did it end?

[00:40:07]I can't pretend I understand. How did it end?

[00:40:12]Um, I like the way she repeats it and this time with when I read it, I read with a different inflection, >> okay?

[00:40:20]>> You know, like I really do read it and you know, it's happening again. How did it end? Like everybody wants to know. I can't pretend that I understand. And then I think she would literally say if she were reading, how did it end?

[00:40:33]>> Yeah, she's asking that question of herself now.

[00:40:35]>> Yeah, she really And you know, that was my note. She's she's telling this to herself, asking it of herself, >> you know, how how did this end?

[00:40:43]>> Yeah, that's kind of fun. Like the pe the people are asking it at the beginning of the song and now she's asking it because she also doesn't know.

[00:40:51]>> Yeah, but I mean their intrusiveness, their that that fan culture or societal cruelty, however those things work. Um my notes. Yeah. Um, you know, however that works, you know, they want to know through their intrusivity because they just they had that hunger.

[00:41:09]>> Yeah.

[00:41:10]>> Um, I think she would earnestly like to know.

[00:41:13]>> Right. Right. Yeah.

[00:41:14]>> Yeah. Why? Why?

[00:41:15]>> Like, how did it end up here? Like, >> right.

[00:41:18]>> Yeah.

[00:41:18]>> Yeah. And should I have known? I mean, should I have recognized that he was a hot house boy? No. Uh, the chorus.

[00:41:25]Come one, come all. It's happening again. The empathetic hunger de uh descends.

[00:41:32]We'll tell no one except all our friends. But I still don't know how did it end. And again, kind of echoing asking herself.

[00:41:42]>> Yeah.

[00:41:44]>> Um major themes.

[00:41:46]>> Yes.

[00:41:48]>> Um human nature and inquisitiveness.

[00:41:52]>> Okay.

[00:41:52]>> I think it's human nature to want to know.

[00:41:54]>> Yeah.

[00:41:54]>> Right. It's why we have news programs.

[00:41:56]It's why somehow news programs went to 24 hours.

[00:41:59]>> Oh, just always.

[00:42:00]>> I know. And now CNN and Fox and MSNBC, they they've got to fill fill 24 hours with something.

[00:42:08]>> And so you get all this, you know, the entertainment, the infotainment.

[00:42:13]>> Yeah, >> that is modern news. I I think that's human nature and I think that she is examining that.

[00:42:18]>> Um the desire to know personal details of private lives. We just want to know what goes on behind the curtain. Um or we never know what's going on next door.

[00:42:32]And I've mentioned this one before, you know, um and I'm always reminded of um William Faulner's short story arose for Emily >> where, you know, Emily was supposed to get married and then the guy suddenly disappears from town.

[00:42:47]>> Oh yes, I remember you talking about that.

[00:42:48]>> Everyone wants to know what happens.

[00:42:51]Yeah. Everyone has speculations and when Emily died, they go into her house and oh, they find the dead body.

[00:43:00]>> Uhhuh. Yeah. He was just in there, >> right? He was he was always there. He never really left him, you know. But we don't know. We don't know. They can be the most pleasant couple next door, but when the curtains are drawn and the lights go out, we don't know what happens over there. And I think that's a big theme. It's one of Faulner's themes.

[00:43:16]Um, we don't know from our um, well, let's see. We don't know from our own ability how to engender the well-being of others um, other than from our own need to gossip.

[00:43:33]>> Interesting.

[00:43:34]>> Yeah. You know, it's I mean, you can't do anything for Taylor Swift. You can't fix her life. It's her life to fix. Um, so what's the next best thing? you talk about it with someone else.

[00:43:46]>> Uhhuh. Call your cousin and say, "This is what I think Taylor should do."

[00:43:49]>> Yeah. Or here's what I think happened or Yeah. Um so I But I think that the big the big theme is sometimes we don't know ourselves, right? She admits that at the very end.

[00:44:02]Um and I don't know if she admits it. I don't think it's an admission. It's more of a um examination.

[00:44:08]>> Agreed. Yeah.

[00:44:09]>> Right. Because it is a postmortm.

[00:44:10]>> Postmortem. Yeah.

[00:44:11]>> Right. And so we have a professional forensic pathologist examining the body and uh he's coming to some some con conclusions as she is um but she's still trying to um examine that ghost that never quite leaves her.

[00:44:28]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:29]>> So I think that sometimes we we don't know our own selves and that's that's kind of an interesting and important theme.

[00:44:39]>> Yeah.

[00:44:40]>> Yeah. Why do we do those things that we do?

[00:44:45]You notice I avoid saying doodoo.

[00:44:48]>> I did not that one episode and you called me out on it.

[00:44:51]>> I know.

[00:44:53]>> Yeah. That's so interesting. This I don't know. I feel like I I wanted to do these two back toback to to do But Daddy I Love Him from last week and then this one because I do feel like they're kind of two sides of the same coin with like you know it can we're obviously talking about Taylor, but I think these both of these songs can be applied to like anyone living in a small you know in a an area like with your group of friends or like at a school or you know in a small town or whatever >> like you don't get to just exist and and live out your life and make your mistakes without people judging you, >> right?

[00:45:31]>> And judging >> or thinking that they know you.

[00:45:33]>> Uh-huh. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Two two different sides. Like I I I know you did this, so I'm judging you for that. But it's like, do you really know?

[00:45:41]>> Yeah. Because sometimes we don't know.

[00:45:43]>> Yeah. You know, >> ourselves. Yeah.

[00:45:45]>> Right. We don't know sometimes why we do those things that we do.

[00:45:48]>> Yeah.

[00:45:49]>> Yeah. I mean, it's life is a journey of self-discovery.

[00:45:56]Okay.

[00:45:56]>> All right.

[00:45:57]>> You ready to listen?

[00:45:58]>> Yes. I'm going to look for that piano going bum bum bum bum.

[00:46:04]>> Okay.

[00:46:06]>> And you know, I do I like this very much as a poem. Just as a poem.

[00:46:11]>> You know, I do from time to time say what was it a couple of weeks ago I said you could just take this stanza and >> and publish it as a poem. And and not that the rest of the the poem isn't good.

[00:46:21]>> Yeah. That's just greatness. Um This is really good. Yeah, >> I love the way it sounds. It deserves to be read aloud.

[00:46:28]>> Or song.

[00:46:31]>> Okay, so I think what we're going to do on this one is just watch the lyric video. She did play this one um in its entirety um for us as a surprise song on the Arrows tour, but maybe we'll get to that eventually.

[00:46:42]>> Okay, >> so um we are going to watch the lyric video and we'll be right back.

[00:46:50]>> Wow, that's nice.

[00:46:52]>> It's pretty. It's a pretty one.

[00:46:54]>> Yeah, it's pretty. I love the piano. Um Yeah, I love the I still like the gasp and the breathing and, you know, the deflation.

[00:47:08]>> Yeah. I never picked up on how all of that goes together.

[00:47:11]>> Yeah.

[00:47:12]>> Yeah. Um, I really like the way that she sang um like she was lost, you know. It's just >> I don't know. It's um >> it's interesting that, you know, she's walking in circles like she was lost.

[00:47:32]So, they're speculating on how and why when maybe the person involved doesn't even know herself.

[00:47:40]>> Yep.

[00:47:41]>> She's living with a ghost. Just a ghost of a memory.

[00:47:45]>> Yeah.

[00:47:47]>> Yeah.

[00:47:47]>> Yeah. And like to to get biographical with it, we all thought when the tortured poets department came out, when this album came out, we thought it was going to be all of these songs, breaking down how that long-term relationship she was in, how it did end.

[00:48:06]Like we that's what we thought we were getting. And that's not really what we got at all. there's a lot more of this other guy in there and there's a lot more of other things in there and it's almost like this song is her answer to that being like I can't give you that album because I also don't know >> you know >> right >> like I'm still trying to figure it out >> right yeah sometimes we live a whole lifetime and we really don't know why Valentina chose Derwood over me I don't Can't figure that out.

[00:48:41]>> I can't either.

[00:48:41]>> I mean, it doesn't bother me anymore.

[00:48:44]Not at all.

[00:48:46]>> Okay. Anything else? You ready to grade?

[00:48:50]>> Go have your crisis without Valentino.

[00:48:52]>> Yes, I'm I'm ready.

[00:48:54]>> All right. How did it end? Tortured poets department. Lyrical strength.

[00:48:59]>> I'm going to say uh reminiscent of Edgar Allen. Uh beautiful use of alliteration.

[00:49:07]Um, lovely rhyme.

[00:49:09]Um, I just I love the way this sounds.

[00:49:14]So, and almost better reading aloud than the music.

[00:49:19]>> Yeah, it's kind of just um I don't know the words they they we've talked about this a little bit. Like I think Taylor just wants the words to stand out. Like she wants us to hear her stories and like this one it really is like the the poetics are just so pretty that you kind of almost don't even need anything else.

[00:49:33]>> No.

[00:49:34]>> But it is a very simple song. like the piano in the background is just kind of is what it is, you know, and >> Yeah. Yeah. The rhyme of circumstances, dances, glances, that's just greatness.

[00:49:45]Um >> Yeah. So, I I'm always reluctant to give a hundred, but um but I don't know. I liked this very much. I I read it aloud two or three times to myself. Um and I keep doing it, don't I? I still love that bridge, you know. Well, I just I I feel like I I want to read, you know, how the death rattle breathing silenced as the soul was leaving the defa deflation of our dreaming. Um, yeah, that's 100.

[00:50:15]>> Okay.

[00:50:18]Um, narrative and structure.

[00:50:21]>> Uh, yeah, I mean, I got it. Um, I I liked the conceit that metaphor, the metaphorical examination extended throughout the work. Um she didn't she didn't um spank the fan culture too badly.

[00:50:34]>> Yeah.

[00:50:36]>> You know, the previous ones she came down pretty hard.

[00:50:38]>> She did. She was really engaged.

[00:50:39]>> And not just on the fan culture, everybody all that, you know, the the media, the those as I praised it earlier, the societal cruelty >> of of a person's life analysis just hard. Um so yeah, it was good. It was 96.

[00:50:56]>> Okay.

[00:50:57]Um, production and atmosphere.

[00:51:00]>> I I I'm so glad I got the piano sound.

[00:51:03]>> Yeah, you got you nailed that.

[00:51:06]>> So, uh, yeah. I mean, I I like the sound of the song. 96.

[00:51:11]>> Okay. Um, lore and literary references.

[00:51:16]>> Uh, not a lot of literary references.

[00:51:19]Um, but lots >> lots of technique.

[00:51:21]>> Lots of poetic technique going on here.

[00:51:24]Yes. Um certainly it belongs in the poets department. So 99.

[00:51:30]>> Okay. And emotional impact.

[00:51:34]>> You know, I have long forgotten Valentina. She's um she is the slimmest and um most vacuous of ghosts in my life.

[00:51:44]>> Yeah. You barely ever bring her up.

[00:51:45]>> Very happy.

[00:51:49]Um uh 94.

[00:51:51]>> Okay. And that's a 9 to7. Yeah.

[00:51:54]>> Okay.

[00:51:55]>> Yeah. Thank you to the um to the patrons. That was uh that was fun. This was a good read. This was a >> Yeah. I keep saying what a beautiful sound.

[00:52:05]>> Mhm.

[00:52:06]>> So fun as poetically.

[00:52:08]>> Love it. Okay. Is that it?

[00:52:10]>> It's what I got.

[00:52:11]>> Okay then. Um we will be back here next week. Make sure that you are subscribed everywhere. Go ahead and rate and review us wherever you listen. um just help us get more ratings and reviews so that more people can find us. Um and then make sure you're following on Instagram and Tik Tok, Swifty and Schcolar Pod. Um you can also follow Uncle Jerry at Dr. Uncle Jerry. You can follow me at Angela Whitehd. And we will be back next week.

[00:52:39]>> We will.

[00:52:40]>> Okay. Spice.