The World Bank Team joins us to discuss the newly launched Country Climate and Development Report

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[00:06:57]>> [music] [music] [music] >> Hello and welcome to this special interview.

[00:07:57]If you have been following the news, you know that the Gambia government and the World Bank Group has unveiled its country climate report on development report outlining a strategy to strengthen climate resilience, promote inclusive growth, and transition towards a low-carbon economy.

[00:08:14]Prepared by the World Bank Group, the report examines the link between climate exchange and economic development. And to discuss this report with me, I have members of the World Bank team, and we will be looking at the report, what it means for Gambia, and the commitment of the Gambia government. Gentlemen and lady, welcome to the show. Thank you.

[00:08:34]Thank you very much. Of course, with me I have Franklin Muqtar Hana. He is the World Bank Group Resident Representative in the Gambia covering both the public and private sector. Sir, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. And we have Zainab. Zainab is a senior economist at the International Finance Corporation.

[00:08:51]She is a private sector sector she's from the private sector of the World Bank Group. And of course, my brother Matar is also from the World Bank Group. Matar, welcome to the show.

[00:09:01]Thank you very much. Of course, I want to look at the report. Why is it important and to have this report now?

[00:09:09]Sir.

[00:09:10]So, first of all, the country climate development report is basically an analysis of the constraints, but also opportunities >> Okay.

[00:09:22]to development using an environmental risk assessment lens, basically a climate lens.

[00:09:32]So, it's important because the Gambia faces significant challenges emanating from environmental risks. It faces a number of risks. So, it's good to understand what are the challenges that are faced, but what are also the opportunities that are there to be able to address these challenges and enable sustainability of economic growth and economic development and ultimately jobs creation.

[00:09:57]So, what uh does this report uh mean for us, the ordinary Gambian? Because, you know, most of the time it's looking at the the officials having meetings and having these conferences, but for me and the ordinary Gambian watching, what does this report mean for us?

[00:10:13]So, thank you very much for that question. Before I answer it, let me give a a small story. Mhm. So, on Monday after my meeting with the the Minister of of uh environment, >> Mhm.

[00:10:24]I came out of the office to wait for my transport to go back to the office. Mhm.

[00:10:29]Now, of course, it took a bit of a few minutes before the vehicle came to me.

[00:10:33]And at that time, the sun was shining so hot.

[00:10:37]And in my mind, I thought, I said, "What quarrel did Gambians have with the sun?" Mhm.

[00:10:45]Now, that demonstrates to you that in terms of the impacts of for example, in that case, it was the sun, but the Gambia also faces various other impacts like the flooding and um and uh the aspects of drought and erratic rainfall. This is the impact it has directly on the ordinary Gambian.

[00:11:07]>> Mhm. With 70% of the population directly or indirectly employed in the agricultural sector, >> Mhm.

[00:11:14]the erratic rainfall, the challenges with the the climate in terms of the sunshine and the like have a direct impact on what they are able to produce, but ultimately on their livelihoods. So, understanding what this is and especially for the policy makers to be able to come up with the right policies that take into account these risks is a very important aspect of their development agenda and an important aspect of maintaining the resilience of the country as we go forward.

[00:11:48]Now, on on Tuesday, yesterday, right?

[00:11:52]The the report was launched and the Vice President was in attendance. Since the production of this report, how has the government received it would you say there's a political will to implement it?

[00:12:05]So, in in terms of the political will, I I don't even have to say so much because first of all, the mere fact that this report was launched at the highest level of government, this is at the level of the presidency, although represented by the Vice President, but the other aspect was the the presence of up to nine ministers at the launch event.

[00:12:32]And who are committed and demonstrated the interest in understanding what the report has to say, but also what are the responsibilities they have to undertake.

[00:12:43]So, that that for me is a very strong demonstration of commitment as far as the government is concerned to address the challenges that they face to be able to sustain and and have inclusive development going forward. And the issues of climate and the environment are not really issues of specific sector.

[00:13:06]These are issues that are cutting across the whole economy and as such in terms of the solutions, it also requires the whole of government approach.

[00:13:18]And I think the launch yesterday given the the the the high level of commitment, sorry, the high level of participation that was there, but also the number of ministers and ministries that were represented demonstrates the high level of commitment of the Gambia in terms of addressing this particular challenge.

[00:13:37]>> Yes. Mother, it seems like the government is very much interested in this report. Is it because the situation is very dire? How what is the What What can we say is the report is telling us as ordinary Gambians? Is the situation really serious?

[00:13:52]Yes, Fatou. I mean, in in in terms of what the report it is is is saying. It's It's giving projections up to 2050 in terms of what climatic impacts the Gambia would be facing. And And this cuts across a number of various instances. I mean, like Franklin said, you have the issues of heat stress. You have the issue of agricultural productivity. You have the issue of energy production. You have the issue of tourism and the value chain. So, it cuts across every single fabric of society and every single sector. So, this is where not to create fear, but also to look at what the opportunity is on the back end.

[00:14:28]It's It's not just okay, climate change is coming, climate change is real. I think everybody has accepted that. But now, how do we make sure that this is anchored properly in our current context of the Gambia? I think during the launch an interesting observation was made.

[00:14:43]Gambia contributes less than 0.01% of global emissions. Why should we care about care care about climate change?

[00:14:51]But you you have to understand that the the impact is not 0.01% of productivity in the Gambia. It goes far beyond that. So, this is where the issues now come in.

[00:15:00]So, not to not to not to create fear, but also let's let's look at it from the other prism. There are other key findings within the report such as the issues regarding the risks relating to Banjul. I'm much younger. I think you you have a few years on me, but this is something a discussion that has been had for such a long time. But how do you manage this element of it? And when we're looking at it within the the global context of the report, we're looking at both mitigation and adaptation. And when you look at the Gambia's particular, I mean, roadmap towards addressing issues of climate change, we're really focusing more on the adaptation aspects of it. How do we make sure that people are really ready and willing and able to absorb some of the issues that may emanate from climate change, but also come out on the other side a bit a more prosperous Gambia a a better Gambia and a more inclusive Gambia for everybody. Um Zainab, I know the the the timeline for this and the budget expand expand up to 2050, but the budget is also huge. It's about what? 100 and So, we have a 13 billion >> 13 billion dollars >> needed between now and 2050. Who finances this? The financing is is not only government.

[00:16:15]>> Okay. Don't worry, because the the government has also other priorities and through the report we find we we find out that in order for the Gambia to maintain its macroeconomic stability, that 35% of the financing does need to come from the private sector. Okay. And the private sector is going to ultimately need to be helped by multilateral development institutions and in order for this 35% to be met, different pathways need to be charted out for the private sector. So, that what does that mean? It means the introduction of new and innovative climate financing instruments. So, the great news is is that the Gambia is already advanced and even in terms of having a climate finance directorate in the uh Ministry of Finance, which we don't see in many other countries. Uh we see that the the government of the Gambia has advanced so much in uh in its NDP National Development Plan objectives in creating a roadmap for mi meeting its uh its objectives. And even in the climate finance space, they have this even this entity that's there, which is excellent because they're really getting themselves ready for the next steps.

[00:17:34]Um and even at the sector level, they have uh the government has already started taking the necessary steps in order to help bring in uh some private financing, especially in the energy sector, which Matarr can talk about as he as he's the expert. But they understand that the private sector is needed in order for this for the climate finance gap to be uh to be reached. So uh they're they're making the effort.

[00:18:00]And we've also been discussing very closely with the private sector throughout the the elaboration of this report. We've held multiple stake stakeholder consultations with various private sector representatives. And one of the conclusions of the report is we cannot look at these sectors at high risk as constraints. You really have to flip the narrative and look at it from an opportunistic lens. And that's what we exactly what we did. We uh through a a complementary diagnostic called the green investment climate diagnostic that also went live yesterday, we looked at three promising subsectors in the Gambian economy that are also the purveyors of livelihoods and jobs uh for for the Gambians and most most importantly women.

[00:18:47]Uh so first we have the agro-processing sector, which is uh and agriculture sector, which represents around 70% of uh the country's uh employment and GD employment. Uh tourism, which represents 20% of the GDP and uh around 15% of employment. And we'd also looked at solid and urban waste management um as this these are all intrinsically linked sectors.

[00:19:13]And looking at it from that business standpoint helped us really pinpoint where the investment opportunities are for the private sector and what the government would need to do in order for the private sector to effectively come in and invest. So this is all very well described in the CCDR and in the accompanying green investment climate diagnostic reports.

[00:19:37]>> During your work you mentioned you had also worked engaged some private sector partners.

[00:19:45]Are you optimistic that it's 35% that we're looking for from the private sector will be met at least by before 2050? Do you Do you think there is some hope that we'll be able to meet that? I think there needs to be hope because in order for the Gambia to maintain its macroeconomic stability, this is what the teams have modeled. We We do not The Gambia has been doing well on the economic path. It's been reducing its fiscal deficit. And in order for it to maintain this level of macroeconomic stability, this 35% will will be necessary. And what we see from the private sector is that they're hungry.

[00:20:23]They want to come in and invest. Not only the domestic private sector, but even foreign foreign investors. They do want to come in. However, the enabling environment has to be there.

[00:20:35]The the creation or the enactment of a special law for waste. We had a great interactions with the government and they're really working hard. They understand the imperative and they they They were very excited to receive some of these very concrete recommendations that they look forward to working on collectively with the development partners as well as the private sector and civil society. And academia who we just came from a meeting with today. Okay, interesting. Now, I know this is up to 2050, but what are the immediate areas that we need to the key priorities that we need to look at now? What is more urgent that government should be looking at in this report?

[00:21:21]So, in terms of what and and indeed to you are right to say that it is it covers a period of period of time.

[00:21:28]>> But there are already even some activities that are being undertaken.

[00:21:31]>> Okay. So, there are areas that we as as the World Bank Group are already working with government Yeah. uh in terms of addressing some of the challenges.

[00:21:40]>> Mhm.

[00:21:40]Uh key to that is under for example the giraffe project. This is the project that supports the agriculture sector.

[00:21:48]Yeah. We're looking at how do we enhance productivity in the agriculture sector?

[00:21:53]Mhm. And to enhance productivity you have to look at aspects of smart climate smart agriculture. Mhm. So, with with the challenges to do with the reliability of rain, what are some of the the skills and and tools that you can use to alleviate that problem. Issues of of promoting irrigation. So, those are some of the areas that we've been looking at to see what is it that we can do to promote uh to address these risks even as we we we go ahead. And of course these will be incremental as the years go go on. Mhm.

[00:22:30]The tourism sector is another area that we have been looking at very very critically.

[00:22:35]>> Yeah. Uh and under that that one you will appreciate that the current tourism model in the Gambia is mostly sun and beach.

[00:22:44]>> Mhm. And one of the key risks identified in the report has been the degradation of the coastal Mhm.

[00:22:51]the the coastal region of of the country. Mhm. And that is really one of the key tourist attractions that we have as a country. Mhm. So, under this project we we work with government to try and and restore some of the coastal erosion. So, to to to forestall the the the impact of of that coastal erosion. Two aspects of coastal nourishment and the mangrove restorations. So, those are some of the areas we look at. And then we do have another project which we finance called the Waka project, which again will also look at how do we restore the coastal line, especially the one that supports the tourism sector.

[00:23:35]So, these are aspects that are looked at going forward. Now, going as as the years come by, we we have to continue as a country investing in some of these these initiatives to be able to to forestall what what what would be the the risks.

[00:23:56]So, the the report provides two two forms of scenarios. There's a scenario of business as usual, and if we continue with business as usual without taking into account these risks and addressing them proactively, the economy is is set to to shrink by about 9% going forward. 9% shrinking of the economy means a very big impact on the livelihoods of people, on the actual GDP of the country. However, in some best-case scenarios when we start addressing the the the recommendations that are put in the report and some of the aspects, we could be able to reduce that that shrinking of the economy to something in the range of about 2%, but also be able to prolong the the the benefits that actually people can get from economic growth and and jobs creation going forward.

[00:24:55]So, those are some of the areas that they would look at, but their activities are incremental. I think the main focus of the report, as Mata said earlier, is not to create fear, Mhm. but it is more of to create the realization that these risks are there, but what can we do about them? How can we be intentional about addressing them so that we are able to manage some of the impact and and minimize the the negative impact that they would have on the Mhm. on on the livelihoods of the people, but also on the economy. On the economy. Uh Mata, it looks like um if care is not taken and immediate measures are not taken, that can affect the ordinary Gambian. The economy might shrink by 9%. What does that mean for me and the ordinary Gambian watching right now? And what do we need to do as a people also? Mhm.

[00:25:48]Yes, no, absolutely Fatu. Um and and this is the thing like what we said, Mhm. if you if [clears throat] you if you have I mean if your economy is is is receding, um the direct impact is of course felt across across the entire country in terms of particularly on on job creation because of what it usually economic growth is really a factor part of the factors of of job creation. So, you're now losing jobs, but also on the other side like I like I said and kudos to you.

[00:26:17]Gambia is morphing into a very entrepreneurial society, right?

[00:26:21]You have a lot of young entrepreneurs and women entrepreneurs. Yeah. This affects business outcomes at at at at that level as well. So, I mean generally when you look at it, it's not that things are not being done, but things are being done to adapt. And every time I drive on this new OIC highway, it's it's it's it's a visual representation of what is happening. But also critically, it's it's also embedding issues of climate resilience into its design. So, when you look at the drainage infrastructure around it, these are some of the things that need to be that need to be looked at. I mean, similarly on the other infrastructure side as well and the energy side as well. We are adapting infrastructure to be to be able to I mean, address the issues of climate change. But, one of the key things and in terms of I mean, sort of embedding it into the modeling is the element of heat stress.

[00:27:10]Cuz the difficulty is if you have 70% of your population involved in agriculture, these are people out in the fields.

[00:27:19]And as the hotter it gets >> Yeah. the more heat they receive >> from working working working in the fields. So, I mean, as as best as possible, how best do you integrate both climate but also digital considerations?

[00:27:30]And that will affect production also, agricultural production, too. Natural.

[00:27:33]Natural. Because I mean, we go back into economics 101. The factors of production are land, labor, capital. Yeah. Um so, I mean, essentially it it it it it affects um agricultural output and then the cascading effects across the board do do do do happen. And like I said, I mean, you also have the Gambian diaspora, which also significantly contribute uh a significant contributor to the economy. So, I mean, it's it's a whole of economy approach. And I think um like I mean, the testament to the representation we got, every single portfolio in the country is affected in some way or another by the effects of climate change.

[00:28:08]>> That's true. Wow. Um so, Zainab uh Franklin has told us the situation, of course, on the um the projects that the World Bank is doing to support the Gambian government. I know a lot of us what we see when we say climate change in The Gambia is the Banjul coastline.

[00:28:24]Because [snorts] we all see that. We can see it. So, what is being done about that? And what does the report say about that? You know, what what does the report say about that? And what is being done about it right now?

[00:28:37]Well, indeed I I think the the report does present uh some some some statistics on the Banjul coastline and >> [clears throat] >> the the risks that the city is facing with regards to climate change and the government is seeing this as an imperative to make the necessary recommendations turn into action in order for for for the city to become more resilient.

[00:29:05]So as Matar reference to thinking about climate adaptation investments for infrastructure helping with the tourism sector and the hotel sector and specifically in order to mitigate the the receding coastline.

[00:29:22]You know, there's also the fact this also creates the opportunities in terms of tourism diversification not resorting to the mass tourism model that currently exists which doesn't really create so many jobs and create so much increased revenue for the country but there are opportunities that do exist in other types of tourism eco-tourism that would necessitate more investments in infrastructure in order for that to be able to fruition. So the report clearly lays out the the imperative to to diversify several of the key sectors to introduce definitely new climate smart technologies whether it be for the agribusiness sector whether it be for for the tourism sector and really to pull the private sector in in order to be able to to to help the country realize its country climate and development objectives. So essentially that's it and I'm sure you know, he's having this conversation with the authorities every day. So I'm sure maybe Franklin can complement this conversation.

[00:30:31]>> Banjul cuz so if I may jump in you know, a lot of me you know, I remember for my entire lifetime people would tell us Banjul is coming under water. Banjul is going to sink >> [snorts] >> but we're still here. It hasn't. To those people who still think, you know, it's not going to happen. What is in the report, especially when it comes to the coastline?

[00:30:49]So, to Just to compliment what Zainab has indicated. Mhm. Like I said earlier, so some of the measures we are trying to take is how do we safeguard? Because one of the risks that the report highlights >> Yeah. is the rising sea levels. Mhm.

[00:31:05]Now, how do you safeguard the the coastline? Because with the rising sea levels, then you you have a lot of erosion. Mhm. Most of the the beaches and the coastline is actually going. Mhm. So, the sea is actually coming in. Now, while people say they've heard that Banjul will sink and they haven't seen it, Yeah. it's actually real that it is coming. It's coming. Yeah.

[00:31:30]Cuz when you see the flood levels that that that are coming up whenever it rains, these are signs of of of demonstrating that they the risks are are real. Mhm.

[00:31:40]But now, the supports and and in partnership with the World Bank Group, the government is addressing some of these by putting uh for example, the coastal nourishment that I was talking about. That would help recede the water Mhm. and and and minimize the impact that it has on the coastline itself. Mhm. And then of course, also restoring some of these mangroves because those were really the buffers Mhm. that the that were naturally put to safeguard the land from the sea. Mhm. And because of encroachment by human beings, >> Mhm.

[00:32:20]they destroy some of these buffers. Now, the the question is how do we restore some of these aspects now to be able to to to improve or at least to lengthen the period within which the sea can come towards the the the the the settlements of people.

[00:32:38]Well, that's really part of the of of of of of of trying to to keep it up. To keep it up. The other the other aspect is is now being smarter in terms of like matter indicated. How are we building our roads? Yeah.

[00:32:54]The or general infrastructure.

[00:32:56]>> Mhm. Is it climate sensitive? Is it climate smart? Mhm. So, if we build a road and you don't put a drainage system, Mhm. when the rains come, the water will have to find somewhere to go.

[00:33:07]And if it can't find where to go, it floods the area. But if you put the drainage system properly, it should be able to flow and flow out into where it is supposed to go. And that helps sustain that kind of investment, but also the livelihoods of the people around these investments.

[00:33:23]>> Investments. Yes. And matter, Zainab spoke about private sector investment.

[00:33:28]And the key areas she highlighted is the enabling environment. And one of the key areas is the energy sector. You cannot have thriving business if the energy sector is not properly managed, if it's not good.

[00:33:41]>> Yes. And we we have a very challenging energy sector right now. And I do know that the World Bank is doing a lot. But what is the World Bank doing in helping the Gambian government to make sure the energy sector thrives that way businesses can can grow in in when they come to invest in the country. So, maybe we might have a separate program. We might have a separate program.

[00:34:04]Exactly. [laughter] >> Exactly. I I see a lot of money pumping in and I'm thinking, what is happening?

[00:34:08]Yes. And I do know that also you have brought a lot of stability >> Yes. Yes.

[00:34:14]Yes, indeed. I mean I mean this is this is really a a sector that has suffered from from from from prolonged decades of underinvestment. So, really starting from a very low base and and and trying to get it to a point where it's relatively stable and responsive to the emerging needs of of the Gambian economy. But I mean in in a nutshell, the bank has been integrated across the entire value chain in the energy sector.

[00:34:38]I mean, the the the the flagship investment was the Jangu Solar Park, where I mean, the Gambia now is benefiting from renewable energy sources.

[00:34:48]And one of the key findings in the report as well is transitioning from the predominant heavy fuel oil that was being utilized into further accelerating the take-up of renewable energy sources could actually reduce energy cost by about 50%. You speak to most businesses currently, you spoke to them 10 years ago, the most the biggest concern was the reliability of it. But now, it's it's a bit more reliable, but the cost of it still is prohibitive. So, a lot of the overheads is going towards that. So, really, as best as possible, accelerating the use of renewable energy sources.

[00:35:23]Zena spoke to this earlier.

[00:35:25]There's currently as well, I mean, in terms of supporting to reach the 35%.

[00:35:30]There's a current pipeline of of readily bankable investments in renewable energy of up to 150 MW.

[00:35:38]Think the first phase of 50 MW is very advanced, and then hopefully, before the end of the summer, they should actually issue out the contract award for that. But on the back of that as well, there's 100 MW solar that is that that is expected to come online as well. But it's it's been a it's been a very extensive transition because you I mean, think it's it's only Gambia and Guinea-Bissau that have almost overnight transitioned from 100% heavy fuel oil-based utility into integrating various sources of of of renewable generation into their energy mix. But also on top of that as well, the Gambia is now integrated into the regional market. And this has allowed for a lot more resilience in terms of really being able to diversify the supply sources. There are also internal constraints in terms of transmission infrastructure and and and distribution infrastructure that the World Bank has also been supporting quite extensively across the board. Recently, just last year, a new project was approved looking at both upgrading transmission infrastructure integrated Banjul area, but also supporting energy access investments.

[00:36:44]So, I think and and the Gambia has a really good story to tell in terms of energy access. Um I think the forecast currently is about 90% access with a push towards really getting to 100%, but course, this has to be supported by a pipeline of downstream investments to ensure that the increased demand is is adequately met. But I mean, I think one of the success stories and and and and I've been in the sector for for quite a while. Yeah. Is for the first time in in I don't know how long now, we're actually on the profit last year.

[00:37:16]>> [laughter] >> Which which For the first time For the first time in in So, I mean, so I mean, it shows that the I mean, the the the the the trajectory is moving. The cost profile is improving, but also making sure that at least on the issues regarding affordability, because Gambia is still on the higher end of the spectrum. How best do you fast-track these investments, but also on the on the on the downstream aspects of it, make sure that the firms feel it. Make sure that the consumers are actually I mean I mean paying paying less.

[00:37:46]The one good thing about about about about our prepayment system is you you pay up front. It's it's it's it's it's it's good for the utility, but you feel it almost immediately on the pocket.

[00:37:55][laughter] So, so I mean, these are these are these are some of the things. I mean, it's it's it's a long road, but I mean, you're seeing progress at the at the end of the tunnel.

[00:38:05]Foday, you want to come in too? So, if I just to add in a Yeah, to add in a bit, I mean, I'm not an energy specialist, but he is. But >> [laughter] >> Indeed, in addition to what he has said, so the whole investment in both the transmission and distribution network has helped to reduce on the losses and these are both the technical losses and also an impact on the commercial losses.

[00:38:30]And once these are addressed, then that has now an impact on the affordability of the of the power. So the expectation is that as we now address the reliability, we hope that going forward people will start soon start realizing that also the cost the cost of power has come down because one the the country is able to get cheaper generation of power but also has minimized or has reduced the level of losses that it has been incurring from its own network both the transmission and the distribution and these now feed directly into the economic growth formula of the country because like you rightly noted once a business gets power at a slightly better price and more reliable, it becomes more productive. And once it becomes more productive, then that improves on the on the growth of the of the economy in general and the livelihoods of the people.

[00:39:34]So how do you think how soon do you think we'll be able to you know, that is some good news. How soon do you think we'll be able to get cheaper electricity with the support of the World Bank I I think I think and the government's commitment, how soon do you think that's possible? So one of the key achievements like he's indicated is the reliability. The reliability. Now once you have that reliability, Yeah.

[00:39:55]it may not necessarily have translated directly into the resource in your pocket but that itself there is a profit in that. Yeah.

[00:40:05]The second one is the fact that the the utility itself is starting to turn a profit. Now in turning a profit, it minimizes the impact it has on the fiscal space of the country in terms of what what subsidies for example would the government have had to provide to it to allow it to to continue to operate.

[00:40:26]So, it can now be able to operate on its own and they can then re-purpose those resources that they could have instead given to NAWEC to other activities for example in the education sector, in the health sector. And this is where now the the the communities start realizing the benefits for Yeah.

[00:40:45]Hopefully it will solve the >> are some of the the areas. So, Hopefully Uh we hope once once once once these these these investments we're looking at I mean within the next I mean two to three years materialize.

[00:40:56]Um we we we're we're certain I mean the Gambia has a has a compact commitment.

[00:41:00]Um this is Mission 300. It was I mean done together with with the World Bank and the government of The Gambia. But it has a it has a compact commitment of 30% of renewable energies and and the one thing we've seen and it's evidence-based is I mean this is the cheapest form of energy right now. Yeah. Of course you need to complement it with other sources because it's intermittent in a sense.

[00:41:19]But I mean it it it allows you I mean a direct viewpoint as to when these things can materialize and uh trust me I am as invested in you. My previous day job used to be tariff setting. So, I've I've I've I've been part of three different tariff increases. So, I want to be part of one that reduces >> reduces. I think it's you know I think it's interesting to note for people to understand. I have said this I am one of those very big critics of NAWEC before, but when I did the the documentary um on you know the World Bank's interventions interventions with NAWEC and looking at the kind of work that your guys are doing the infrastructure you're building and I tell I told couple of my friends sometimes we are going to be dealing with all of these power cuts and issues that we're dealing with, but I think the goal is long term because the kind of infrastructure that is being built once it's properly done, it will help with affordability but also reliability. And I think that is very important. So, it's going to take a long time, but when it's done, I think hopefully all of us will see the benefits. And thanks to the intervention of the World Bank. Now, Zainab, the the report, does it mean that the Gambia government has to choose between development and climate? How?

[00:42:31]Because you know we also have a lot of development projects that the government has to do. They don't just have to work on climate. And some people will say, "Why do we have to do climate when we have to do agriculture when we have to do the health sector?"

[00:42:43]Do we have to choose between these two or can we do both at the same time?

[00:42:47]Absolutely not, because that's one of the central messages of the report is that they're not competing priorities.

[00:42:53]Okay. Once you invest in climate resilience and climate adaptation, you're investing in the growth of the economy. And as the report rightly says, that if the Gambia does not invest in climate action, it can result to a 9.3% in GDP loss by 2050. So, investing in climate resilience is investing in the economy, is in investing in livelihoods, is in investing in job creation, as and is investing in the long-term growth path of the Gambia. So, absolutely I would not say that they're competing, I would say that they're absolutely complimentary. And like you said, you know, you have to choose between health, education. It's not a choice because the government has and now from what we from our dialogue, I feel that they've embedded a mindset where climate considerations have been embedded in every single investment decision that they're making. Like Amadou I talked about infrastructure. Now, you know, yesterday the Minister of Tourism was talking about, you know, the the tourism sector and the hotels and how to develop a green framework for the hotel sector, talking about diversification of tourism into eco-tourism and what that means.

[00:44:08]So, you I I really see it in the forefront of the of the government and that speaks to also the high representation of the highest levels of government that would that came to the to the launch yesterday because it's not it's not a choice. It's really it's really investing in the future. In the future. And it looks like this is a the report also what it signal for me is the the plan because most of the time countries governments African governments would not have plans that like give you a long-term plan. But this is not just telling us this is for today. We're talking about electricity >> [laughter] >> They had us.

[00:44:51]We were talking about electricity. But yeah, we Thank God we Thank God we have a plan. So that But you know, talking about plans, you know, this is a 50-year plan. Why is it important for us to have this plan now released the report released now? Why is it important?

[00:45:09]So, actually the report if if if it was possible the report should have been released like yesterday yesterday and when I say yesterday I don't mean yes, I mean days back >> days back. Okay. Yeah. years back maybe >> years back >> Yeah.

[00:45:24]>> [clears throat] >> But it is never too late.

[00:45:26]I think the report coming out at this time Mhm.

[00:45:32]really is to draw the attention >> Mhm. of the policy makers the public in terms of being sensitive as they they they make decisions in terms of what needs to be done, but also as they live their daily life make decisions that are climate smart that take into account the realities of the risks you're facing, but also to that try to take advantage of the opportunities that these risks now provide. And then how do we take advantage of these to be able to sustain the economic growth that we we are currently seeing and make sure that we do not remain in in an environment of business as usual and have a realization of the 9.something loss in GDP. But if we can minimize that loss, it it is a significant and induction into the the level of economic growth. And of course, once we have the economy growing, then we have livelihoods improving because we also have the the level of job creation coming up uh significantly and that will directly impact everybody, the common person, uh and and whoever else because then one the country has the necessary resources to address some of the human capital uh investment aspects in education, in health, but also the people themselves have a much better livelihood uh because they they able to to afford and and able to pick whatever else they would have needed. Yeah. So, in a nutshell really, it's the the the fact that the report comes out and brings that realization of these are the risks we face, but these are also the opportunities. If we are able to address some of these risks now, this is how we can forestall the negative impact that would be coming up and help to sustain the current development trajectory that the country is undertaking.

[00:47:39]>> Undertaking. But uh um how does the report affect the most vulnerable in society? Obviously, young people and women.

[00:47:47]Um when economics have economies have issues, mostly it affects us the women and and the young people.

[00:47:55]>> Yes. If this um issues are not addressed properly, how will it affect the young people and the women? Yes, no, absolutely. I mean, they they they bear a disproportionate impact in terms of what what what the climate impacts are.

[00:48:08]But generally, I mean, >> [clears throat] >> really it's it's it's to structure it around the whole of economy approach so that nobody is left behind.

[00:48:16]This is both the women and the youth.

[00:48:18]And and there's there's a very critical topic we didn't we didn't get to speak of and this is really relating to broadly around access to finance for both women and youth. And and part of the CCDR also does look at critical aspects on climate finance, but also how best do you integrate these segments of society into it. The other element of it really relates to, like I said earlier, both the agricultural sector and the tourism sector. Combined, these two sectors provide about 85% of jobs. Yeah.

[00:48:48]Any impact on these sectors disproportionately affect both youth and women. Mhm. So, I mean, looking at protecting and and and and enhancing productivity, particularly in the agricultural sector, would would support it.

[00:49:02]Critically as well within the report, there's also a human capital dimension that has been embedded within it. And this is really looking at health and education outcomes. I mean, under framework called protect, build, and utilize so that they ensure that the human capital potentials of all Gambians materially, I mean, really um improve.

[00:49:26]But then there's also another element of it and and this comes out comes out in the CCDR on the issue of clean cooking and water solutions as as well.

[00:49:35]Women and Fortunately, unfortunately, in Gambia are responsible for for for most of these issues. And and and particularly, I'm I'm very sensitive to the issue of of of clean cooking. We're still heavily utilizing a lot of charcoal, firewood, I mean, for for for domestic cooking purposes. And and and things have shifted now. There of course options in in in in LPG and also the utilization of of clean cooking stoves. So, I mean, it's it's it's critical to look at it from from across all all all these prisons to make sure that they they they're fully on boarded, but also protected so that at least I mean, particularly on the education side, how best do you support support this? And and this is really a key feature of of a number of our projects. Right now, for when you look at some of our projects, they're looking at matching grants. And and most of the beneficiaries are actually youth and women. I think in Franklin is best placed to speak to this, but in agriculture, there are matching grant facilities in in tourism as well.

[00:50:33]We do have some some so that we have backward linkages between between production and into into the into the sectors. So, I mean, it's it's it's it's critical. It's crucial. But like we said, our North Star is is job creation.

[00:50:48]And when you talk about jobs, you're just embedding all of all of all of these. So, this is why it's critical to support institutions like yours that are that are that are sort of I mean, creating this opportunity for for for job creation across the across the board. Yeah. And Zainab, I know the the the report talks about the role of government and the private sector.

[00:51:09]But of course, us the people, do we have Did Did the report touch on anything around that? What should be our role as citizens? We live We live around We create all of this, right? What should What should Do we have a role to play in all of this to complement the private sector and government? Absolutely. I mean, I think you know, this report is is for the people of the Gambia. Like Matarr alluded to, many of the sectors that uh support the livelihoods of the Gambia, agriculture, tourism, uh you know, the upcoming sectors as well that haven't been exploited, they represent the vulnerable, the youth, the women. Yeah.

[00:51:50]So, it is it it's integrated into the daily lives of the Gambians, climate change. So, any any recommendation that is done is there to touch, uh you know, the the average Gambian youth, um as well, the students. I think that's they've been involved in uh the dialogue, which we had a very interesting conversation earlier with the students of the University of the Gambia. There's a whole climate action center at the University of the Gambia.

[00:52:21]So, it's really an inclusive report that touches upon all of the layers of the population and as well as a very important spatial dimension because, like we alluded to earlier, it's not only about Banjul, but it's also about the surrounding areas and how to uh improve the territorial equality for uh for the Gambian that sense. And the report also alludes to the importance of the small and medium-sized enterprises.

[00:52:49]I do come from a private sector >> [laughter] >> lens. So, these report that the this SMEs that do represent 80% of the economic landscape, you know, we really have to think about the SMEs and the young entrepreneurs and how to improve access to finance for them in order for them to come up with projects that can be bankable and that can be providing jobs for the future and then doing that through a climate smart lens, you know, looking at agritech startups for the agriculture sector, looking at innovative solutions for the tourism sector, waste management, for example, this is one of the highest sectors of GHG emissions in the country. I think 83% of the waste sector is GHG emits you know, CO2 emissions. So, you know, this is something that is a sector that's unstructured that has the opportunity to create a lot of jobs and a lot of bringing a lot of private sector investment, but the enabling environment needs to be there. This is an opportunity for SMEs and young entrepreneurs to come in and come up with innovative solutions for the sector. So, ultimately, it's all about for me the youth of the SMEs and the most vulnerable in The Gambia. Oh, interesting. Uh finally, we're running out of time, frankly.

[00:54:12]You know, the support the World Bank is doing uh to the Gambian government through the Gambian government to the Gambian people.

[00:54:20]Can you just just give us a brief um on some of the projects that you work I know you talked about the giraffe and others, but just some of the work that you're doing to support the Gambian government, you know, to to make sure Yeah, so um what I gave earlier on was specific projects, but I think it may be easier to go through at the sector level. Okay.

[00:54:40]So, for example, Mata rightly noted the support in the energy sector.

[00:54:46]We also support in the education sector, the health sector, the digital sector, uh the tourism sector, which I had also mentioned earlier on, and road sector. Those are the the key ones that are coming up. And of course, agriculture, which I had mentioned earlier on.

[00:55:06]So, the support has been very broad, and that is to the public sector.

[00:55:10]We also then have significant impact in terms of private sector development. And on that one, we I look at it from two angles.

[00:55:20]One is the angle of how do you get the government to create the enabling environment for private sector development. And once we have that enabling environment, then how do we support the private sector in terms of the investment resources that they need to be able to go forward, but also the technical assistance on in some of the areas that they would not have the exact technical assistance. And for that one specifically, I would look at like the MSMEs, which may not have the necessary um structure of of of operation that would then enable them to get more resources to grow their businesses. So, we do try and support them in in in some of these areas. So, really in a nutshell, I would say the support to to the government is to provide the the the activities that government has responsibility over, and we accompany government in its program. So, we don't we don't we don't substitute what government is supposed to do. We just complement what they are supposed to do and and strengthen it, but also continue to create that enabling environment, support them to create the enabling environment to bring in the private sector. Zena earlier on indicated when she indicated that the requirement, for example, for addressing the the environmental risks that we have outlined is enormous.

[00:56:49]Now, that requirement being enormous, the government cannot address it on its own. Yeah. If you are to take it to scale, it's the private sector that can take it to scale. The jobs that Matatu talked about in terms of job creation, the best placed sector to create jobs is the private sector.

[00:57:11]So, the bank's support comes in to to help them take forward some of these agendas both in terms of what are the the the policies and institutional structures, but then also what is the enabling environment? For example, what is the regulatory environment? How conducive is it to attract private sector development? And then we provide the investment resources for these private sectors to thrive.

[00:57:39]Thank you very much and we want to thank the World Bank for the support to the government government obviously to the private sector because a report like this only gives the government and a plan as to what should be done in the next couple of years and I think if implemented helps Gambia. What is your final message to the viewers? Especially the Gambian people, how should we look at this report? How should it be received especially the young people and women? Yeah, no, I [clears throat] mean I think also just to note that the report is publicly available. So ideally we would want >> have access to Uh it's on the World Bank website or if you type into Google or as everybody does now into chat GPT World Bank CCDR it it it it would come up and it's it's available. So just just to familiarize themselves with the report but also to make themselves climate adaptive and climate resilient. I think I think the recent crisis is a case in point. The people the countries that had been able to sort of almost climate proof themselves in a sense deploying e-mobility solutions and stuff have been more insulated from it than than the others that are that are a bit more exposed.

[00:58:47]So I mean ideally let's just familiarize ourselves with the report. I mean I mean the World Bank is here for the Gambians and we're always available to further these discussions. Thank Final message Zainab?

[00:58:58]Uh no, it's really having that public private sector dialogue. You you know both want a better life for the Gambians and both there the private sector is there ready to invest. The government is there to help implement the necessary regulations for the private sector to come in. So really we're there to help foster that dialogue between the public sector and the private sector hence having one representative for the World Bank Group IFC and the World Bank and multilateral investment guarantee agency here. That's our role to help really foster that dialogue and uh we were happy to continue on the implementation of of the CCDR.

[00:59:40]Interesting. Franklin, what's the final message? So, for me the final message really would be to reassure the Gambians that the World Bank Group remains a committed partner. Mhm.

[00:59:53]We will do everything to galvanize the private sector to work with other development partners and to mobilize whatever resources we can to continue supporting the agenda for national development in The Gambia.

[01:00:09]Thank you very much, Franklin, Zeinab and Matar. And to you all watching, thank you very much for watching. Uh the report is available on the World Bank website, um the CCDR report. If you want to know what is the Gambia's situation, go through download the report and have access to it. And the commitment has been given by the Gambian government.

[01:00:27]Hopefully, the implementation starts soon. Thank you very much, gentlemen and lady. And to you watching, good night to you all. See you again next week.

[01:00:35]Bye-bye. Thank you. Thank you.

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