Raising Agot Makeer | The Kevin Brooks and Betsy Birmingham Interview

Added: 2026-05-12

[00:00:00]I think we were making dinner one night for the kids and we sort of were just trying to figure out what things look like into the future and Kevin turned to me and he said like you're in this for the long haul, right? And I was like, "Yeah, of course." And that was the only conversation we really had about it. We once we knew Joseph well and we loved the kids, it was like, "Of course we would do this as if they were our own children or grandchildren.

[00:00:35]Welcome onto the sideline everybody. I'm sports director Matt Dowell and I am so excited for today's episode as we have more Gamecock parents joining the pod.

[00:00:44]And today I welcome to the show Kevin Brooks and Betsy Birmingham, parents of Gamecock women's basketball star AOT Mcir. Kevin, Betsy, how are you guys?

[00:00:52]It's so good to see you.

[00:00:54]>> Yeah, we're great. Thanks for having us, Matt. Yeah, we appreciate it, Matt.

[00:00:57]Thanks.

[00:00:58]>> So excited to talk to you guys because you guys I mean you guys have such a fascinating story just yourselves um as Kevin and Betsy and of course with AOT and her brothers as well and you guys are going to tell us all about it in just a few minutes because I really think it's a story that's going to resonate with a lot of people and connect with a lot of people because it is so interesting. Um, but first let's get to know you guys just a little bit so that Gamecock fans can get to know you, what you do, and uh how you guys got to where you are today. So, first, where are you joining us from, and what do you guys do for a living?

[00:01:31]>> Okay, we're in Thunder Bay, Ontario. Um, and we're at the Boral Alaskan Faculty of Law, which is where I work. I'm the um interim dean here right now. I've been in that job for about two years.

[00:01:44]>> And I also work at Lakehead University, but I work on the main campus. I'm the social justice studies program adviser.

[00:01:49]That's a master's degree that we offer interdisciplinary through social science and humanities. And we've both been at in academia for almost 30 years now. So that's uh kind of the the big picture of everything.

[00:02:01]>> It's amazing too. It's amazing when I I've talked to a lot of parents by now and all of them are like bosses. Like you guys are all like so intelligent.

[00:02:10]You guys have such incredible resumes.

[00:02:12]You know, I was talking to Rashidita.

[00:02:13]She's a physicist. like you guys are professors and deans and all this stuff.

[00:02:17]So, it's amazing just kind of the talent and everything that these that all of you Gamecock parents have and I think that says a lot about Dawn and you know the kind of parents that she's looking for in this recruiting process. Um, but it's really really cool uh to see what you guys do. And we were talking beforehand, you know, I know you guys were professors at North Dakota State for for a long time. My first reporting job was in Bismar, North Dakota. And so we got a lot of North Dakota connections in this podcast episode today and I don't get to meet a lot of people that know that North Dakota lifestyle. Uh so but you guys like the North, you guys like the cold.

[00:02:53]>> So I I did grow up in Canada um and didn't didn't come down to the US until I uh started my PhD at Iowa State. Uh but Betsy's from Iowa and but also doesn't mind the cold.

[00:03:05]>> And you guys were telling telling me it's snowing right now. it there's been snow flurries for the past few days.

[00:03:12]Yeah. You get up and you're just sort of like uh really this is still happening.

[00:03:17]But it does I mean it's actually fairly typical weather. We just get pretty excited and wanting it to get warm quicker.

[00:03:24]>> I don't think uh anyone I don't know if those of us in Colombia can fathom uh a May snow. Um so but you guys are used to that.

[00:03:32]>> Yeah. You know, it actually the people that have lived in Thunder Bay a long time say they really hate April and May because they do want spring to come and it just doesn't get here until sort of the end of May. Uh even when we moved up from North Dakota, the everything was sort of in bloom in North Dakota when we left. We got here on like a June 4th and everything was still in buds and nothing was blooming yet. And we're like, whoa, we didn't quite anticipate that kind of difference. Uh because Fargo is only, you know, about eight hours from here.

[00:04:03]Okay. Not a whole lot further south, but just a little bit because of the lake actually. You know, we're right on the uh edge of Lake Superior, and so that keeps things really cool a little bit longer into the spring.

[00:04:15]>> Yeah. I uh I also went to Syracuse, so I know I know a lot about the Great Lake uh snow as well, and it is also its own beast. So, uh, so, uh, I don't know if praying for you guys in the snow is the right terminology because you're used to it, but, uh, hope you guys survive this last snow. Hopefully, the last snow for you guys as the the summer approaches.

[00:04:33]And also, um, how did you guys meet?

[00:04:36]>> Uh, we met at graduate school. We were both in a PhD program um, at Iowa State University. And, um, yeah, we took some classes together, I think, and that's how we >> happens happens in higher ed a lot.

[00:04:50]Yeah, that is so awesome. Um, so you guys were professors at North Dakota State. Now we'll kind of get into raising a goat makir and your story with a god and how you guys got to today where you guys are in your whole journey. So you guys were professors at North Dakota State and that is really when your story with a god began. and we spoke, Kevin and I spoke before this so I could prepare for this interview and I have to say you're the first people in my 10 plus year career that have ever offered a pre-inter. Um, and so that told me a lot about you guys as well, which was amazing. I'd never ever had that offer before, but I did think it was kind of important just to kind of have make sure that I was well prepared for this interview and asking the right questions and so that I could understand your story uh better before we kind of got into it. But I will not tell the story of how you guys met Agot's biological parents and how you became her legal guardians nearly as well as you can. So I'm going to give you guys the mic and can you guys tell everybody who's watching and listening the journey of how your story with AOT unfolded?

[00:05:55]>> Sure. Yeah. And you know it's it's obviously pretty complicated story.

[00:05:58]We'll try to give you a a simpler version of it or a pretty clear version of it. But uh her her father or we call him Baba as they do in in South Sudan uh was a student of mine at North Dakota State University. And you know like many people I was curious about him. He was what uh some people might know as the Lost Boys of Sudan. He had made the the walk from his village over into Ethiopia. Spent a lot of time in refugee camps. uh but came to Fargo in in 2003 and then I think I met him in 2005 in one of my classes, got to know him, became friends with him. We actually ended up setting up a nonprofit called African Soul American Heart where our mission was to um protect, educate and empower orphan girls in South Sudan.

[00:06:44]>> Uh and just sort of through that process of getting to know him and becoming like family with him, right, because we were spending a lot of time together. Uh we eventually, you know, met the kids and uh you know, obviously fell in love with them right away just because they were really outgoing and charming kids.

[00:07:01]And and here's where I'll just go to the quick things got complicated and both of the parents had to go back to South Sudan for various reasons. And we just said to to Joseph, their dad, um, you know, why don't you have the kids stay with us for a while, get things sorted out, and then, you know, and then if you want, you can come back and bring them over with you. And he thought that was a pretty good idea. Uh, and so we rolled with that. We kind of knew that there was a chance that it might be a long-term role, uh, but we were willing to do that because we loved him and we loved the kids. And so, um, that's sort of how it unfolded and we became legal guardians in 2010.

[00:07:40]>> Got details you want to add?

[00:07:41]>> Yeah, I just say I think it's more like, um, we are more like, um, adoptive parents to Joseph, to their father. And so, we're kind of like grandparents, even though we raised the kids from very small. We met a God when she was just turning two. Um, and so we've been in their lives for a long time, but sort of in that grandparent role and and then as parents raising them, but their dad is really um involved and important in their lives and in our life.

[00:08:12]>> Such a cool story.

[00:08:14]>> And I just going to add just the extended family, too. Uh, so Joseph has sisters that are in North America, a couple in Canada, a couple in the US.

[00:08:22]And so we've been able to keep the kids connected to them, to their aunties, and to their cousins. And so it's just been really interesting and exciting for us to get to be part of this really big sort of global family. And so, you know, every there's certainly been challenges, but the rewards have been so many more.

[00:08:40]>> It's so cool. Such an is so cool. I love how it's almost like a team. Like you guys are a team just trying to make all of this work. Um, and I love that. I think that is um just so great. And just so our viewers and listeners know, I I told you I spoke with Kevin before this interview because I'm not an expert on this subject and I don't pretend to be.

[00:08:59]Um, and I want everything to be, you know, professional and respectful to everyone involved. So, um, just respect everyone involved. We're going to refer to Agot's biological parents as as her biological parents or, you know, Baba, Joseph, whatever you you guys call, you know, you guys know him, so you guys call him whatever you want. And then Kevin and Betsy as her legal guardians just in relation to this interview. Um, but I love how it just seems like there was so much love involved in this whole journey and still is to this day. But what was it about Agot's biological father, her biological parents that you connected so much with?

[00:09:35]>> Well, her her dad is brilliant and from the time we met him, his goal was to be able to return and make change in South Sudan. um particularly for women, but I think he wanted to make change in the whole country and to understand, you know, it's just been a war torn place.

[00:09:53]He grew up during war and and to have someone who can come out of that kind of situation and have their only goal be to make the world better for other people and for the children who are coming next. That really resonated with us. Um and yeah, he's a he's a wonderful guy and we have um really grown from having him in our lives.

[00:10:15]>> Yeah. And I would just say, you know, he's also that's sort of the serious side. He's also really funny and charming guy. So he and I did a lot of speaking engagements as we were doing the fundraising for the organization.

[00:10:25]And he would just always put audiences at ease by starting with some jokes, right? Talking about what it was like how the first time he saw snow in in Fargo, right? He was afraid that there had been a nuclear bomb had gone off because he'd never seen snow and that stuff's fallen from the sky and how he used to wear about 10 pairs of underwear to try to stay warm, you know, with the long johns and everything. So, and that always made people laugh and and because they knew they were coming to hear a pretty powerful story, but he just he he knew how to make people feel comfortable and and was a great storyteller and funny, charming person. And so it was it was pretty easy to to want to spend time with him and with the kids and and uh yeah, we really just sort of became family before we became family.

[00:11:08]>> It's amazing. And I I think Agot is very charismatic and I think she you know, she can tell stories well. So I think she gets that from him as well because when I talk to her I'm like she's great in front of the camera. Uh and it's fantastic. Um as you mentioned, you started the nonprofit African Soul American Heart. And why was that something that you guys felt was so important to begin and um and try and keep going to impact people?

[00:11:35]>> I think in many ways it was just following Joseph's lead on that, right?

[00:11:40]You know, he really uh if anybody watches it, it's available on YouTube.

[00:11:44]He just starts it by saying, you know, that he felt as a young man in Fargo, North Dakota, that people didn't know what was going on back in his home country, right? it wasn't really getting much attention and he wanted people to know because he also he had met so many Americans who were generous to him and supportive of him that he knew that if he could tell that story and show people what was going on he thought they would want to support him and the foundation and and make this program go and he was absolutely right about and so and then once we got into it was just really compelling work and you know we would do some fun things like uh you know compete in the Fargo Marathon as you know a fundraising team. And uh then we'd do some hard things. Uh like Joseph, especially, I only got to go to his village one time, but he would go back and try to do work and get things established over there. That was always challenging. Uh you know, anything could go wrong. And there was there was no uh uh you know, Home Depot to go to if you had something go wrong. You had to drive four hours to the nearest large center to to get the replacement part if something went wrong out in his village.

[00:12:50]>> Yeah. And I would say so his uh he has a documentary that is on YouTube called African Soul American Heart. And so that would be a way you could learn about the organization. And over the years um the organization supported 50 girls um through high school. And so that's 50 girls. At the time they started it, it was more common for a young woman in South Sudan to die in childbirth than to be able to read. And so it was just so important um to figure out ways to empower those women to get an education and to um put off childbearing until uh later and to put off marriage until later. So >> well that's amazing. I I definitely want to check out this documentary again. The nonprofit is called African Soul American Heart. Is it still an active nonprofit?

[00:13:38]>> Is not unfortunately. One of the other key person who formed it uh just had to step away. she'd poured Deb Dawson poured so much time and energy into it, but she had already retired when she started that and then she sort of took up this whole other uh volunteer job and and she just got to a point where she said, you know, I need to be done with this. And the girls at that point, most of them had finished high school. A few were still in high school or late middle school. We actually had a team in Uganda. The program ended up in Uganda because of various conflicts, but we had a team in Uganda that sort of helped see the rest of the girls through to high school. And I was just talking to one of the uh guys who did that for us, and he said, "Yeah, they're all through now."

[00:14:21]And uh you know, some of them have gotten married and are having families, but some went on and are nurses and working in various roles either in Uganda or in South Sudan, some in Kenya.

[00:14:31]So, you know, it really did uh provide that just sort of that ability for them to go to school, uh take care of their education, then take care of themselves, and now they can take care of their families. And that was kind of >> I mean, life-changing stuff and for so many girls and Betsy, for you, what was it like for you to watch the journey for all of these girls that truly transformed their lives?

[00:14:55]>> Um, it was amazing. And one of the best things is we got to bring our kids over to meet them. We went to the school that they were going to. Our kids got to spend time with them. A got to see what it was like for girls growing up in a very different place and in a very different way. And so we visited East Africa three times um with the kids and uh visited their dad and and got to be involved with this organization and um and meet those young women and hear about their stories. We did crafts with them. We had meals with them. Um just had uh quite a life-changing experience for all of us, too.

[00:15:35]>> It's incredible. Again, the name of that nonprofit is African Soul American Heart. And wow, what amazing work you guys did. Um, so Agot was born in 2007 and then as you said in 2010 both parents went back to Sudan for various reasons and you guys became the legal guardians of her of of Agot and her two brothers Deng and Makira. Am I saying their names correctly?

[00:15:58]>> Perfect. And so what was that moment like? I mean there's probably so so much in a decision like that. I mean was it an easy yes from you? Was it emotional?

[00:16:09]Was it scary? Was it all of the above?

[00:16:11]Can you guys take us through all of that?

[00:16:13]>> Um, I don't think it was any of that. I I'll let I think we were making dinner one night for the kids and we sort of were just trying to figure out what things look like into the future and Kevin turned to me and he said like, "You're in this for the long haul, right?" And I was like, "Yeah, of course." And that was the only conversation we really had about it. We once we knew Joseph well and we loved the kids, it was like of course we would do this as if they were our own children or grandchildren. And so it was um it it has made our lives so much richer. I think people sort of say things like oh you did all it it wasn't we have grown more and had more opportunities because of this. Um so >> yeah we're both like from small I'm from a small town in Manitoba, right? That nobody's heard of. Betsy from >> a farm >> farm outside of Cedar Rapids, right? And neither of us had this on our list of things to do in our lives and it just kind of fell in our lap. Betsy used to joke, we have older children as well.

[00:17:16]and she would sometimes get asked, you know, if we're going to have any more children, and she'd say, "Only if somebody left them on my doorstep and her doorstep, you know, >> you know, we talked about um just how, you know, you have helped change so many girls' lives. How have you helped change, you know, a God's life and all these things, but how did raising a god and her brothers change you guys?"

[00:17:37]>> Yeah. Wow. It made me prepared this, I shouldn't say this, it made me prepared to be an administrator.

[00:17:44]>> Okay. like >> having lots of kids, and that sounds strange, but having to be organized, um having to to basically parent five children um in a very busy household um while working full-time. I think it and it just filled our lives with so much more love, right? We have all of this um incredible extended family now um not only from our own families but um Joseph's sisters, their children and then the extended South Sudin community who is so warm, loving and um embraces us so beautifully.

[00:18:23]>> Kevin, you want to add to that?

[00:18:24]>> Yeah, for me uh I'll give you a little bit more professional response to that.

[00:18:28]Right. We were both getting our PhDs in rhetoric and professional communication at Iowa State uh and and doing things within the English department and uh now I'm the social justice studies program coordinator. And I wouldn't be doing this if it hadn't been for the work that I did with African Soul, which then got me to do more things in Fargo. So I also uh ended up sort of restarting a tutoring program that had had gone under uh that was mainly teaching English to refugee and immigrant families. uh that sort of ballooned into a larger nonprofit that provided more services.

[00:19:03]And so it just really changed how I spent my day every day, right, in terms of what my focus was and what I was trying to do sort of professionally but also uh you know after work uh kind of became a little bit all-encompassing but in a good way and and it really put me in a position to do this kind of work and it changed me as a teacher honestly.

[00:19:22]I think I was uh pretty straightforward like hey this is the material we've got to learn and I became much more focused on on sort of these things that had rocked our world like hey what do you want to do as a young person to make a difference in the world you know and I don't think I was asking those questions the first 10 years of my teaching career and then uh once I got involved with Joseph and the organization and this work I started asking that question a lot more >> and I started teaching a class called proposing social change to help young people learn how they could start nonprofit profits and do work that would change the world in ways that impacted them and that they were interested in.

[00:19:59]So, >> it's amazing. Everybody has been changed in in ways and it's really really beautiful to see. Um, Joseph, her biological father, you guys were telling me he retained legal guardianship as well. Um, he's been very active in their lives ever since and a lot the whole family it seems like has been. It's been like a team effort. Um, so it just seems like it's a very healthy situation, a very loving relationship between everybody involved in this scenario and uh that just has to have made it all even sweeter. Correct.

[00:20:31]>> Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you know, sort of you're saying just sort of that that extended family, those relationships have been really special. Uh, you know, the way that Joseph gets to be involved is that he travels back uh as often as he can. It's become less co really sort of threw a wrench in in those plans and then honestly the kids AAU schedules really threw a wrench in our plans where you know where we'd been going to South Sudan or uh Kenya or Uganda before once they started playing the AU schedule that wasn't happening. Uh so they haven't had a chance to get over since about uh 2019 I think it is. But they're starting to talk about it right as they think about can we get over there? uh they're looking at opportunities to go visit uh their baba.

[00:21:18]>> Yeah. And I will say that I think it's impacted the children so much to have this kind of wide variety of people.

[00:21:24]Agot wants to be a family lawyer because she says she wants to be able to um help other families who have kind of non-traditional arrangements but arrangements that support children's well-being. And so she's really thinking about those kinds of things. her brother Deng is very interested in um just doing work in East Africa and figuring out how he can um build perhaps a nonprofit perhaps take um on America restart uh yeah African soul American heart again and so um they both are just very interested in supporting what they see as part of their home communities as well. It's amazing. Uh that's so great.

[00:22:08]And I know uh I think everyone's going to be cheering on Agot uh in in that path uh towards becoming a family lawyer. And I also uh I think a lot of the fans are going to be hoping that they can get um Joseph and and her family to Colonial Life Arena maybe soon to to check out some games, which would be great. It's such a nuance topic and no situation is the same, you know, when it comes to adoption or legal guardianship. But is there anything you'd like to say to those who have gone through a process like this, who might be going through it right now, who maybe are thinking about going through it? I know that's kind of a a wide question, but is there anything else you'd like to say to people who are going through or have gone through this?

[00:22:46]>> Um, that's a really hard question.

[00:22:48]>> Yeah, it is. I um I think transracial adoption is really a challenging issue and I think that um white parents often think that love can change everything and do everything and I mean I don't want to be controversial here. Everybody loves their kids and you love the kids that come into your life. Absolutely.

[00:23:11]But I think it is really challenging and I think that um individuals have to do a lot of work. Um, parents, people wanting to become parents of children who are a different race than themselves really need to do work about how are you going to keep that child connected with their people, with um, who they want to be, with who they are becoming. Um, and and also just take a real look at your whiteness and white privilege and um, I think it just it really is a thing. Um, I would also say that just, you know, with Agot, one of the reasons she chose South Carolina and Coach Staley is that she wanted to be with black women um, and to have more black women in her life. And that's an amazing thing. And Coach Staley has given that to her. The women on the team have given that to her. And I'm really seeing her become more who she is. Yeah. And who she wants to be through those interactions and through the fam. My gosh, the um she just meets um incredible women on the street who are like, "Oh, a guy, you're our adopted daughter now in South Carolina, right?

[00:24:23]They want to take her in and take care of her and um and help her become." And I just think that's really an amazing thing that she has gotten to experience.

[00:24:33]>> Going back to the transracial adoption aspect of everything, you spoke of challenges and having to do work. What work did you guys have to do with that aspect of everything?

[00:24:43]>> I know for me just a lot of self-education, right? As somebody who grew up in an almost entirely white farming community in southern Manitoba, I was not until I'd gone to school, I had not encountered a lot of diversity in my communities, in my schools. And so I've just read a lot on American history uh you know certainly from the civil rights era on especially uh to understand that read a lot on on issues of whiteness and trying to understand sort of all of the privileges that I had and was not aware of and so and that's kind of how you know it transformed my teaching as well right I really saw that there were so many other and more important things that I needed to be sharing with my students or getting them to at least think about uh that it that that's where that transformation happened for me. Just a whole lot of self-education, self-reflection and ongoing, right? Like it is is not a done job at at any point. And the kids are great at at calling us on things now, especially now as they're older and and can sort of see how the world works. Uh they are pretty quick to call us if they if they see us kind of lapsing into some blindness in some area.

[00:25:51]>> Yeah. and and I think they're all taking courses at school that have helped them just really think about who they are and think about our culture, think about American culture, Canadian culture, all of those things. And so, um, yeah, Got's taking a lot of psychology classes right now. And so, boy, she calls us on our parenting a lot. She said the other day, "Do you think kids should be whooped more?" I was like, "Well, no." And she said, "Do you think I should have been whooped?" And I was like, well, no. But, you know, so I just think it's really funny that she's sort of um like thinking about all these things in a very different way now that she's a college student. She's learning a lot.

[00:26:33]>> That's that's amazing. And I do think it's I think it's great that you guys brought that up. Um and I think it's something that is important and you can't really ignore it. You know, it's something that you have to address and you know, and and that's just kind of reality. And I think that you guys have done that in a beautiful way and explained it in a beautiful way as as well. Um, is there anything else about this topic relating to your lives?

[00:26:53]Because I know that was a lot, but it was such a it's such a huge part of your story, you know, and there's so much depth to it, but is there anything else about this topic relating to your lives before we get to the basketball aspect of everything that you'd like to add that we did not touch on?

[00:27:07]>> I can't think of anything. I just I I think you know it's been an amazing journey and um we are really I think we feel really blessed by it. So that's all I can say about that.

[00:27:20]>> Okay. So that's everything really about the upbringing and the backstory of Agot's guardianship and how you guys got to where you are. So let's now talk basketball when it comes to Agot Makir because man did she have such a great freshman year with South Carolina. She's a rising star and I think so many people are so excited to see how good she's going to get at South Carolina. But let's rewind back to when she was I I have in my notes like what was she like as a kid, but she kind of still is a kid. She's what 18.

[00:27:50]So >> her birthday, >> same day as Coach Staley.

[00:27:53]>> Oh, that's right. She just had a birthday. Um so happy belated to Agot and to Don Staley. But what was Agot like as a young child?

[00:28:02]So, you're gonna see us going a little PTSD. No, she was a wild child.

[00:28:08]>> Really >> amazing. Yeah.

[00:28:10]>> Just did wild in an intense way, right?

[00:28:13]Just uh love whatever she did, she did 100% or 110% and uh you know, always on the go, never much interested in sitting down. We couldn't take her to a movie.

[00:28:24]She'd fall asleep in the first 10 minutes. And so she definitely always preferred to be active and playing sports, any sport at all and hanging out with her friends. She's always bringing new friends home. So yeah, she was >> definitely the engine in the family.

[00:28:38]Yes.

[00:28:40]>> What was it like? Cuz she is she has her two brothers. Is she the youngest?

[00:28:44]>> Yeah.

[00:28:44]>> Okay. So what was it like for her to to be the little sister to two older brothers?

[00:28:51]>> Yeah. And so we have two children as well. And so, um, my daughter Katie lives in Brooklyn. She's a production designer. So, she hasn't been in the home since Agot was there. Um, and then our son Griffin now lives in Tokyo. Um, but he was home when Agot was growing up. So, she actually kind of had three big brothers. Um, and they played basketball over at the We lived right across the street from a school that had a hoop and they played over there really every day that it wasn't raining. that was just or snowing. Yeah, that was kind of their thing. Um and they got all the kids in the neighborhood to come out and play and they would just have these epic >> um battles um at the basketball court and AOT started that from the time she was probably three.

[00:29:38]>> Wow.

[00:29:39]>> Being out there playing and and any sport she would play any sport. I mean they played baseball, they played kickball, they did all the things. So >> yeah.

[00:29:48]>> When I know you guys um you guys became her legal guardians in 2010. When did you make the move from Fargo to Canada?

[00:29:54]>> In 2018.

[00:29:55]>> Yeah.

[00:29:56]>> Okay. So, you guys were in Fargo for a good bit with for a God's childhood.

[00:29:59]>> Yeah. All All the kids really still in many ways identify Fargo as their hometown even if it gets published as Thunder Bay.

[00:30:08]>> And um and even though we didn't become her legal guardians till 2010, she had been with us for a little bit before then, too. So, yeah, from the time she was really two. um she was with us. So yeah.

[00:30:24]>> So what was I know we've we've had um other Canadians, you know, in at South Carolina, Leticia Ami here being the most famous one. What's the basketball scene like for for youth in Canada compared to here in the United States?

[00:30:38]>> Well, you know, if we if we do the whole story and she started in Fargo, the scene there, as you know, from your days in North Dakota wasn't bad. You know, it was certainly uh in Fargo, football was came because of the NDSU bison, but uh you know, hockey and basketball were also pretty well supported. Uh and so she really got her start in basketball in Fargo. Uh started with just a little camp in our neighborhood. We had a neighbor who played basketball at Jamestown and so and he was just a great outgoing guy, loved to coach. And so he would just organize sort of little free camps for the kids in the neighborhood.

[00:31:15]And it really started with that. And the first time, this is what our memory is.

[00:31:19]This is the first time she did anything organized with basketball is that she went to the camp with her brothers and and our friend John May said to us afterwards like, "Oh yeah, those those boys are good. You know, they'll play high school." Which of course isn't an obvious thing in in US high schools, right? Not every kid gets to play. In Canada, every kid gets to play if they want to play basketball uh because there aren't that many who want to do it. But um >> you know, he said, "So boys are good.

[00:31:41]They'll definitely play high school.

[00:31:43]well, they might even have a chance at playing college. And then he turns and he looks at a guy and he points and he goes, "There's your superstar." And that was like the first time she'd done anything organized at all.

[00:31:52]>> And she was maybe four and a half or five.

[00:31:54]>> Yeah, I think maybe. Yeah, something like that. And and then he just said, you know, she obviously he said, you know, she's just doing stuff that I wouldn't expect at this age. And then and then what he said, and this was so true of John, he said, and she does everything with a huge smile. And and he just loved that, right? because he just loved to see kids enjoying the game and not being out there because their parents told them they needed to be out there, but actually really loving the sport. And so that was uh that was kind of our initial moment with that. And then she just played uh you know sort of organized ball to the extent that we had that in Fargo. From then on, her first team was with Deng because there wasn't a girls team for grade two and so Deng was starting in grade three and so she joined that team. And again, we thank those coaches for being open to having this little uh girl on their team, but she was right in the mix, right? She she wasn't quite as strong as some of them, but she had the skill set already at that point to compete with those third grade boys.

[00:32:48]>> I think I think she weighed about 40 pounds.

[00:32:52]>> She was just and she was tall and thin, but she was she was quite a little thing. Yeah. Yeah. And then the next year she switched. She stayed with the boys, but she moved down, you know, she moved to a group of boys that were her age. And so she played with them for a couple years. And then our last year in Fargo, she made the that boys team, most of them decided to do something else that winter. And so she ended up playing on a girls team in Fargo for the last year that we were there. And and that was actually it was a great transition for her. And her coach that year was a former bison player, uh, Beth Maher. And so she got a chance to really work with a very good coach at that time and and got to see what the girls game would look like for her.

[00:33:35]>> So they recognized something in her right away from an early age. You guys talked about how she kind of had an intensity as a kid. Um did was she always super competitive even that young?

[00:33:46]>> Yeah.

[00:33:47]>> Yep.

[00:33:47]>> Yeah.

[00:33:48]>> Yeah. Just we would have to go out and tell the kids that we would take the ball away from them if they didn't stop hurting each other. they were playing so hard and um I mean it was you know and and finally I think I said to one of her brothers once you could kill her she's very small you know because they would just get going at each other they were all super competitive and um like and it turned out to be in a good way and now they're just really all close but um yeah it was she's always been like this >> and her brother's also very very good basketball players as well so that talent has continued their whole lives.

[00:34:28]Um, I ask parents this a lot. I think every parent I've asked this question to because it's one thing to be Fargo good.

[00:34:34]It's one thing to be, you know, Midwest good. It's another thing to be nationally good and to be one of these top top recruits. It's so hard to get into that top echelon. When in her journey did you guys say, "Okay, she is good." And then, "Okay, she's really good."

[00:34:52]>> It's interesting. thing. I mean, Kevin can jump in, too, but she sort of told us first >> really.

[00:34:57]>> Um, and and I don't know exactly how to say that. When she was in about 8th grade and we were up here living up here, she started looking on her own at schools where she could go to play basketball.

[00:35:10]>> Wow.

[00:35:10]>> In the US or in Canada, just other places >> for high school. for high school, reaching out to coaches um to talk about if there were scholarship opportunities available. And so I think uh in when she was in grade nine, I think we first went and looked at some schools um or was that between eight and nine? Yeah. and and we really had um I I would say the good fortune of meeting um her KIA nurse coach who uh at Lincoln >> and and what he said to us was there's no reason to send your ninth grade child away to play basketball. Let her play basketball. let her decide when she's a little bit older um if if she wants to do this and if this is her passion. And so she did stay home for um two more years um and didn't go away to Crestwood till she was in um till she was 16 or almost 16. And um and I don't know. I mean, I think that she was the one telling us all the way along though that no, this is what I want to do and I'm really good at it.

[00:36:28]And we knew she was we knew she was good and we knew she was driven.

[00:36:34]>> But I really I I don't know.

[00:36:37]>> No, I I think yeah, that just sort of even more directly we had exactly that same thought process, right? Her coach in fifth grade says she's the best player in North Dakota. I'm like, "Yeah, okay. So, that's nice. So, she can play for the Bison." Okay. That and that would have been great. Like, we thought that would have been great.

[00:36:52]>> Yeah. We would have loved it, >> you know. And then, but the thing I think about is that when she was in fourth grade, uh there was a a school that put on sort of like a little development, little just pickup games on Saturday. And there was a fourth grade boy, uh, Mason Claybo, who had people in the community always said, "This kid's good, right? Like, this kid's exceptional." He came from a basketball family. Both of his parents had played >> and he was really good. and a guy was sort of like this unknown little skinny kid playing with the boys, right? And the two of them got on the pickup team together and they both just like lit up.

[00:37:25]They destroyed the other team in ways that everybody in the gym was looking around going like, "What is going on here?" Like because they both had such advanced skill set. They were making every shot. They were stealing every pass and they were feeding off of each other, right? And so I was like, "Okay."

[00:37:40]So she when she gets put with somebody who has elite skills that even raises her a little bit higher. So like that's a pretty good sign.

[00:37:49]>> Yeah.

[00:37:50]>> Did that again when she came up here in Thunder Bay. She was actually she had the good fortune of getting to work out with our university team here by from the seventh grade on.

[00:37:59]>> And so in in seventh grade she's again on a they're playing a little scrimmage and she's playing with the best player on the team. And we weren't at this one, but other people who were were telling us about it, and they said the two of them just had this connection and they destroyed the the team, just the two of them alone, right? Playing off of each other, playing fast, playing with high skill. So, we were starting to get a sense that she could play at a pretty high level. Honestly, you know, I guess because we're trained to be academics and we need a we need evidence and we're skeptical and things like that. We're like, okay, great. You know, clearly maybe you can do better than the Bison.

[00:38:33]maybe we can get you into the Big 10 or something like that. Uh but uh when once she got onto the AAOU circuit though and you got to see all of the players that she would eventually play with and you then it was a little bit easier to assess, but until then, you're right, it's really hard to tell when you're in little places like Fargo and Thunder Bay just sort of how well this talent's going to translate. So, she was a go-getter and she has always had that intensity. And I described her when we look at just this past freshman season, I told her to her face, um, I said, "You're fearless out there on the court." I've watched a lot of freshman come and go. She's one of the top ones I've seen that just looks ready for the moment. So, fearless is the word that I associate her with. She said when I asked her that that she gets it from growing up with her brothers. But from your aspect, from your perspective, where does she get that fearlessness, that go-getter attitude from?

[00:39:26]>> It's her.

[00:39:27]>> She's always been that way. I wish we could say, "Oh, we knew we have just the, you know, special parenting skills to help people achieve their finest."

[00:39:37]And that just she is um she is who she is. Um and she has always been that way from the time she was 2 years old. And um that's an amazing thing to me. I mean, I think people who know her are also sort of like, whoa, she is who she is, you know?

[00:39:55]>> And I think it shows up in interesting ways. You know, obviously when you're in competition, you compete hard. But I I just still remember this time she's shooting at the gym here in Thunder Bay and and a grown man, right? 30-year-old man, big guy comes over and starts shooting on her hoop and she just looks at him. He's like, "This is my hoop."

[00:40:13]And he's like, "Okay, I'm on you, right?" like I wouldn't have done that.

[00:40:16]I would have let the guy shoot him, but not her. So, yeah, that that's it's just kind of a core personality with her and yeah, it's it's it's been hard on us as parents at times, but we're really glad she has it.

[00:40:28]>> Well, man, that fearlessness, that attitude has has taken her so far and we saw that on display really come to a head at the NCAA tournament of a a kind of a preview of where she is headed. I love recruiting stories. I love knowing how everything played out uh with these players to come to the Gamecock. So, what was the recruiting pro process like for you guys? And when did Don Staley enter the picture?

[00:40:53]>> Yeah.

[00:40:53]>> Well, the recruiting I would say uh you know, again, she as somebody in Thunder Bay, she was not really on anybody's radar until she started playing AU ball.

[00:41:02]And then so her first season there, she definitely got some interest, but I think a lot of programs were like, let's wait and see, you know, if she fills out a little bit more, what's going to happen on that front? Um, but then after her season at Crestwood in that AAU year, now she was on everybody's radar and we started doing visits in what January of her grade 11 year, uh, did a handful of visits then and conversations, but then then we learned about Portal. you know, we sort of knew it existed, but we didn't know how it was going to impact us. And we didn't really think about how it would impact her as a recruit. But, of course, coaches started moving, players started moving, and and so we always say we kind of had to reset the whole uh recruiting process in that summer between 11 and 12 because really most of the teams that she was talking to, there was some pretty significant moving.

[00:41:52]>> Yeah. Uh, and then as far as as South Carolina and and Dawn, I remember it must have been pretty late in the year because I remember talking to her and it was actually a nice day outside in Thunder Bay, so it must have been pretty late into May or even into June uh of her between 11 and 12. I I know AOT had talked to her a little bit before then.

[00:42:10]I think you had actually had a conversation with her before then as well, but it ca definitely came in later than other teams that had been there in grade 10 and 11. Uh but uh you know obviously once they were on the radar uh we were all pretty excited about that possibility and and we thought it was a really good fit for some of the reasons that Betsy's already talked about and just the style of play uh really fit her well. So yeah, obviously when when Don calls you're happy to take that call.

[00:42:36]>> Yeah.

[00:42:36]>> And I think also just with Agot, she's um she has uh rheumatoid arthritis and I don't know if she's talked about that a lot. And so one of the things uh that we knew was that she probably wouldn't be able to carry a team, right? She needs to be on a team with other excellent players so that if she has a day when she isn't feeling great or whatever that there are other people there. And so um I think that's just a really um she really shouldn't be playing 40 minutes a game, right? And so, um, going to a team that had so many great players who would be great mentors and who would kind of fill out those minutes in a really positive way, I think was really important um to us. I know AOT would play 40 minutes a game if they would let her and we're glad that coach um takes good care of her.

[00:43:31]>> Well, yeah, I I did not know that. I did not know that she had rheumatoid arthritis. Um, and so it isn't a team that, you know, next year even more there's going to be even more superstars when you look at this roster. Um, so that's a very interesting aspect to to kind of how that thought process played out and kind of choosing schools and choosing teams. Um, Don has always talked about how important the parents are of her players that she wants her players to have good parents, solid parents, you know, um, and how vital that is in the recruiting process. From your perspective, what stood out to you about Dawn from all the conversations and from all those visits when she was trying to get Agot to become a Gamecock?

[00:44:10]>> She wasn't trying to give Agot money, you know, and and I mean that in the best way possible. Yeah. I mean that she's trying to recruit based on basketball and what this team can do for you in your future and what South Carolina can do for your academic um goals. Yeah.

[00:44:31]>> Right. And um and I think that meant a lot to us actually. I think that was really an important part that we felt like a was making decisions based on the things that um were also our values. Um, and I think that was really important.

[00:44:49]And Don just can talk really openly about almost anything and and is such a positive, loving person. Um, that Yeah.

[00:45:01]I mean, I don't know. She sent us over really fast.

[00:45:05]>> Yeah. Show showed up in her truck with Champ and then, you know, that was it.

[00:45:08]We were done. No, but honestly the whole staff was so welcoming and they were so engaged the whole recruiting visit that we were here that that really stood out.

[00:45:17]Not that other teams didn't do that, but they >> they didn't have to, right? Or at least not every team did it and we weren't sure if they would do it, but they really did. They were really engaged uh really with every aspect of the recruiting process. Uh I think got also just felt really comfortable with the players at that time and so that was a big part of it. But for for us, yeah, just it was clear that they really cared about the whole person and that's what we were hoping for. And we always said to a got, you know, that this is your decision. We're here to watch for red flags. And there were zero red flags on our visit and any any of our discussions with them.

[00:45:53]>> Wow, that's incredible. Go ahead, Bessie. Jeffson, you want to add? Um, I I think I was just going to say that for for her, you know, when she was in high school, she would work really hard academically and she was quite successful, but only because she's competitive and so she wants to like be the best there, too, sort of. But I didn't feel like she had like just that kind of intellectual curiosity that would keep her going. And I will say South Carolina has given her that. I mean, I think we are both really impressed with what she's gotten in the classroom, with the advising that she's got, and with people saying, "You're a really good student. What do you want to do next?" And really trying to get her to articulate >> um goals for her future that aren't just basketball. Basketball goals are great, but she's getting these other goals as well. And we have loved that about South Carolina. And I think that's huge in an era where it is seem it does feel like acade academics have been kind of pushed to the side. You know, your story, you see what Don did for Joyce Edwards, you know, making her major happen. The fact that the academic part is still an emphasis, um, I think is a huge part of it. And I just interviewed Zia Cook, who of course is a legend with South Carolina. And I was telling her, I think Dawn, in an era where everyone kind of looks at like the next 6 months and looks at the very short-term picture, Don does a good job of painting the big picture of the next four years, the next 10 years because you look at how many Gamecocks are in the league right now.

[00:47:22]You know, Asia and Aaliyah are signing these huge contracts now that are probably only going to get bigger, you know, as time goes on. It's really I think Don does a good job of painting a life picture and not just here's what we can do for you in the next six months.

[00:47:36]That's just my perspective. I don't know if you agree with that, but that's just kind of what I gauge from talking to everybody.

[00:47:41]>> No, I think her coach at Crestwood, Marlo Davis, also just did a nice job of helping us and got think about sort of schools where you have a lifetime commitment, right? We never really thought about that. We were certainly thinking about the four years and and what that would look like. But he said, you know, these schools, if you go there, if a guy goes there, she will be, you know, a Gamecock for life. She will be fill in the blank for life, right?

[00:48:09]And so that helped us also think about is this a place where uh, you know, we can see a guy thriving for a long time beyond her playing career. And it's clear how players come back and and give to the team that that's happening with the players who are a few years out as as well as obviously with Don and and their connections, you know, other pros coming back and giving to the team. So, you know, just really happy with the whole environment that that Don has been able to create there. It's well documented. We can't add too much to that other than to say it it it really is true, right? really has worked out in most of the ways that we were told it would work and and we're seeing that it it's um it's coming through just as they said >> and every addition to the coaching staff to just the kind of health care staff that they have there to help her develop um have they're wonderful. I mean these are people who we would want our child to be around. So I mean we're not trying to make a recruiting video but they convinced us of that and we've seen that play out.

[00:49:07]>> It's amazing. There is nothing like a game at Colonial Life Arena, you know, and so anyone who has not been, it does live up to the hype. We're all not lying to you. It is incredible to be a part of. So, Agot, you know, she says yes to the Gamecocks. She comes to South Carolina. She has a great freshman year.

[00:49:22]I know she dealt with some injuries, but it really all peaked at the NCAA tournament when she really announced herself on the national stage and really established herself as a future r or a rising star and maybe a star for that we need to be paying attention to for this coming season. And she did say she told me at the NCAA tournament she felt like she was kind of under the radar as a freshman. You know, a lot of freshmen were hyped up and maybe she was kind of put under the radar on a national scale.

[00:49:50]But for you guys, what was your big takeaway from her freshman season that ended on such a high?

[00:49:57]>> Yeah, I think I think what she said is right. She's never had, you know, we've never been the hype parents and she hasn't had a hype uh sort of mechanism behind her. So, everything that she's gotten in terms of like the ESPN rankings were strictly based on people looking at her play and evaluating her in relationship to the rest of the players. Uh and and and I think also just because of the distance and because of the time, it was just harder for her to be as out there as some of the other players perhaps can be. And and it's she doesn't seem to want that spotlight. I think maybe the way to think about it is she everything that she gets, she wants to make sure that she earned that, right? She wants it to come from the court, not from social media or not from uh you know, an ad agency or anything like that. And so she's she's really laser focused on just that idea that the basketball will take care of everything else. The basketball's the number one thing. I'm going to keep it the number one thing.

[00:50:53]>> And so we were really proud of her the way she hung with this season because of all those challenges early on, you know, and and then uh even, you know, I sort of saying to her like even when things were going well, something weird would get in the way, right? like she gets off to that incredible start against Vanderbilt, turns them over a couple times, gets a bucket and then she gets into a little bit of foul trouble, right? And not terrible, but she got into three fouls and then the game was out of hand and she never goes back in.

[00:51:19]And so I think she played like about 12 or 15 minutes that game. So there were just little things like that that just sort of kept her from doing as much as she did during the tournament earlier in the season. But, you know, I think as most of the parents said, we knew it was there because we've been watching it since, you know, she was in fourth grade. uh we knew it would come out. I would say as as a parent I've just for whatever reason I've always just known that she would take care of her own business partly because of her personality and I knew that it would come together at some point for her and we're proud that she was so patient uh and and figured that out had continued to have that confidence in herself and then just when that opportunity arose she stepped up and took advantage of it and >> I do think it took her some time to learn the system. Yeah. um at South Carolina and to learn and and I think it was really useful for her. I think she I think her basketball IQ has gone up so much since going there and learning from the coaching staff there and um and she's got a lot of things she does well naturally that she's just sort of been doing, but she also has some habits that they are helping her turn. Um, and so I I just I think that's been a really good experience and to learn that you don't always get everything on day one, that this is about a process. It's working and um and that then you can see that the process worked, right? And so I am really happy for her that she got to have that great tournament because it could help convince her who does want things to happen right now because that's her personality. Yeah. um that if you put in the work that things that the good things do happen and you get that opportunity to showcase um what you're able to do and I think for her she was able to showcase kind of consistency through that tournament in a way um that was really helpful to her >> and I think too a lot of people watching want instant gratification they want to see results right right away and it is okay to not know everything on day one it's okay to be part of the process to grow that's really what sports and college is all about and we saw that growth with the got when we look ahead to next season. What do you guys want to see from her uh in her sophomore year?

[00:53:32]>> You know, we just hope she has a healthy season. You know, that's probably the main thing.

[00:53:36]>> Uh you know, again, we know that she'll take care of the stuff in terms of basketball and she'll continue to grow.

[00:53:42]She'll probably have some new roles. Uh you know, just with the with Raven gone, you know, there's probably going to be some chances to bring the ball up and play a little bit more point guard. Uh, so it'll be exciting to see how that goes for her if if that's how it transpires and we don't know for sure, but we're just kind of guessing.

[00:53:57]>> Uh, and yeah, but staying healthy is got to be the the number one thing. And and we >> and again, as Betsy was saying, that the team there has been so good, the medical team as well that we're pretty sure we're going to get things figured out.

[00:54:11]And you can't control the weird things, but the things that we can control, we feel like we got a good good base for >> taking. She's really Yeah. And I think her health has been good this second half of the uh year. She's feeling better than she probably has since she was maybe 16. So that's really wonderful to just see her moving while feeling good. Um and being really positive because she's feeling pretty good. Um and and so that part's great and we want her to have continued good health.

[00:54:42]obviously she really loves these new girls coming into the team and so I think that will be great too. I mean I know she's sad to see the seniors go >> but um like she's known some of the uh the girls who are a year behind her for quite some time. Jordan Lee had um was at Team Canada tryyous with her one year and so they know each other and she's just really excited to be playing with these really talented and kind people.

[00:55:13]Yeah.

[00:55:13]>> Um and so I think that's great that they already have um a rapport among themselves and a relationship. Um, and of course, um, Maddie, Isa, um, and Ally have become very that's been a core group of close friends, too. So, >> I love that. I I I think we're all excited to watch this team. I I mean, 15 deep and they're all superstars. I think it's going to be so much fun to watch.

[00:55:39]And I do think I like that you said that because I think there's always the question of like, how are they going to make everyone happy? How are they going to, you know, do this and that? Um, but South Carolina Dawn always makes it work and um I'm excited to watch them all click and go through that process together a as a very deep and talented unit. Kevin and Betsy, this has been such a beautiful, amazing conversation.

[00:56:01]Your story with AGOT is so fascinating and I really think that the fam and those watching are going to resonate with this conversation so much. I think they're going to have learned so much about you and your family and and all of these topics we've discussed. But as we end our conversation, is there anything else you want to add about your life?

[00:56:19]About a got that we didn't touch on as we wrap up our show.

[00:56:24]>> You got anything?

[00:56:25]>> No. There could be a hundred things, but nothing pressing. You know, it's all it's all good. Uh I guess I would actually just like to invite people from South Carolina to come up to Thunder Bay in the summer because, you know, I know you're all afraid of our cold weather, but we are really afraid of your heat in the summer. Uh, and I think you would enjoy Thunder Bay quite a bit more in July and August than you might un unless you love your heat, but that's hard for us to understand.

[00:56:49]>> It It's really beautiful here. Um, and uh, and we got a nice big house because we raised five kids there. And so, uh, we if you need a place to stay, come on up. We would love to have you. So, reach out um to >> the people at Thunder Bay have sort of decided that if any they know anybody looking for a room, they just call us, >> send them over. So, um, yeah, it'd be totally welcome. And, um, and I would just also say that, you know, we're really looking forward to getting to some games next year. We didn't get to do that so much this year just because of our working schedules and things like that. And, um, we'd love to see a Gotmore in person. And her brothers as well. So, we've got three kids who are all playing ball and we've got to try to see those games. And, uh, and people can check out her brother's uh, basketball, too. So that that's another possibility if they're interested.

[00:57:40]>> And for people uh who don't know, where where do her brothers play?

[00:57:44]>> Her brother Mckir plays at um University Missouri St. Louis and her brother Deng is playing at Loris College in uh Deuke, Iowa.

[00:57:54]>> It's fantastic. So, uh, fans need to take a road trip to Thunder Bay and we got to get you guys to Colonial Life Arena next season and so everyone can just, uh, travel a lot together and, uh, and see the sites, which is great. Kevin Brooks, Betsy Birmingham, thank you guys so much for joining the show. I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.

[00:58:13]I've loved getting to know you guys. Um, these parent interviews are some of my favorites to do and um, just thank you so much for your insight. Thank you for being open and honest with us today. And I really think people are going to enjoy this. So, thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:58:26]>> Thanks, Matt. We appreciate your time.

[00:58:29]>> Yeah.

[00:58:29]>> Yeah. Thank you guys. It has been such a great conversation. As always, for those of you watching and listening, make sure you guys like and subscribe on YouTube or wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple, Spotify, or Amazon Music. He's Kevin Brooks. She's Betsy Birmingham.

[00:58:43]I'm Matt Dowell. We'll see you next time here on South Carolina Sideline.