Stuart & Cliffe Knechtle | Oregon State | Two Smart Ladies, One Big Question! | Give Me An Answer

Added: 2026-05-09

[00:00:00]Isn't it important to have something that is ruling our lives or what? What is that that rules?

[00:00:07]>> You tell me. What is it for you?

[00:00:08]>> What's important to me?

[00:00:09]>> Yeah. What do you do? Pardon?

[00:00:10]>> Love.

[00:00:11]>> Good.

[00:00:13]Jesus put it real well. Love God with your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

[00:00:16]And love your neighbor as yourself.

[00:00:30]You talk a lot about how you tell people you want to do what you want to do, which is only human, and you challenge them to have them do what God wants them to do, right? And have them be Lord of their life. And I'd be curious on what your guys's thoughts are on what what that means. So, a lot of Christians can go generally reduce down to five things, whether it's the Bible, logic and reasoning, tradition, natural law, and personal experience. And I'd be curious to know how you would rank them or if you'd rank them at all or if you just single out one. Like what's the ultimate? I guess >> all of the above. I don't live in isolation. I am part of the body of Christ, which means I learn from my Catholic brothers and sisters. I learn from my Protestant brothers and sisters.

[00:01:17]And I learn from my Greek Orthodox brothers and sisters.

[00:01:20]>> So then that would be an argument for tradition. Correct. Right.

[00:01:23]>> If that's the way you define it, fine. I go to the Bible. I go to prayer. I go to meditation. I go to people holding me accountable.

[00:01:33]You I've been doing this for 45 years and I've had a bunch of university students more than are in this room point their bony finger at me and say, "You're a stinking hypocrite.

[00:01:42]You Christians, you're all into money.

[00:01:43]You're American materialists. You're American capitalists." And I say, "You know something? You might be right.

[00:01:51]The big ethical problem for me is why do I keep as much money for myself as I do because we got the solution for starving babies all over the world. So why don't I give more away? And I have to struggle with that ethically.

[00:02:04]>> And that's involve scripture reading prayer. It involves talking allowing people to talk into my lives and say come on Cliff simplify simplify. Don't just hoard for yourself. And I got to listen to that. when those conflict with each other when as I would assume that you would have that in your life conflictions what wins is it the Bible is it logic >> wisdom because you're right there are a lot of complex ethical decisions and it's not all cookie cutter stuff it takes a lot of wisdom to work through the complexities of this life university professor says you know you Christians are really simplistic and I'll tell you cliff why moral relativism wins the day plane goes down five people in the life raft only fit four people on it.

[00:02:50]Fifth person gets on it goes down. So how are you going to decide which of the four people you're going to put in that life raft?

[00:02:58]The cute ones, the intelligent ones, the wealthy ones, the ones with great career potential. Who are you going to put in that life raft? And you see me.

[00:03:05]>> No, no, the professor saying that and making students begin to squirm. Oh gosh, it is all relative. What the professor is not acknowledging is guess what? If human life wasn't innately valuable, it doesn't matter which four you put on because it doesn't matter if one, two, three, four, or five drown because life is ultimately insignificant.

[00:03:26]The whole complexity of your moral issue conundrum here is based on the innate value of human life. And guess what?

[00:03:33]Human life is trash if there is no God.

[00:03:36]You come from a dust bin. You're going through a dust bin and you're living in a dust storm right now. It's called your life. I guess my So you're saying wisdom and so with that wisdom, >> do you then are you putting the Bible at the top of that? What what do you >> I pray. I read the Bible. I go to church and build friendships with other people.

[00:03:55]I read the books of people who are far more intelligent than I am. I mean, come on, guys. If you're smart enough to doubt, you're smart enough to study. So go do your homework and don't put your head in the sand like an ostrich and say, "Oh, I doubt. I doubt. I doubt." Well, guess what? We all doubt. I doubt.

[00:04:16]But if I'm going to doubt and be honest, it means I got to crack some books and I got to find some really intelligent professors on this campus who love Christ. And I better get into their office hours, sit in front of them and say, "All right, professor, you're a follow Christ. Now, how do you think through this one?" That's the way I do it.

[00:04:31]>> Isn't it important to have something that is ruling our lives or what? What is that that ru >> You tell me. What is it for you?

[00:04:39]>> What's important to me?

[00:04:40]>> Yeah. What do you do? Pardon?

[00:04:42]>> Love.

[00:04:42]>> Good.

[00:04:44]Jesus put it real well. Love God with your heart, soul, mind, and strength.

[00:04:47]And love your neighbor as yourself.

[00:04:49]>> Every guy friend of mine who's committed adultery has loved that mistress. So you better be real careful how you define love.

[00:04:58]>> Which is why we would need to have the list of things to understand. So like yeah of deciding of where we gather that and what we decide to do and I think it's interesting because among Christians historically what our Christian theology deciding of what is moral and what is immoral how that has changed over time and it seems to be constantly evolving which is interesting. So >> because then what can we rely on except are we just relying on ourselves to decide what is moral? No, you're absolutely correct. That has happened.

[00:05:35]But loving your neighbor and loving God has not evolved.

[00:05:40]>> But doctrine through Christianity and theology absolutely has.

[00:05:46]>> And I could give a rip.

[00:05:48]The question is, a thousand years ago, when am I going to commit adultery? Am I going to be faithful to my wife? And today, am I going to commit adultery or am I going to be faithful to my wife? A thousand years ago, am I going to lie and steal? today. Am I going to lie and steal or am I going to tell the truth and be honest? Am I going to covet what you have and be jealous and envious of you? Or am I going to love you and celebrate with you the fact that you have talents I don't have?

[00:06:14]>> Are we putting our trust in the gospels or are we putting our trust in Jesus's theology and uh following his theology and with logic and beyond that? Well, you just said life is about love.

[00:06:28]And so we were raised red and we were raised red and tooth and claw came from apes. Powerfully eat the weak. It's just evolutionary cycle. So how could life be about love?

[00:06:41]>> Love life should be about the powerful winning, the powerful dominating. So yes, love did enter the picture in this world through specifically Jesus Christ.

[00:06:51]before that you had eye for an eye or you know a connection with your neighbor. But I don't understand though that you bring up eye for an eye because that does come out of the Jewish law which is also from God.

[00:07:03]>> No >> no >> it's >> no God's ultimate law is not eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

[00:07:13]>> You'll have a half blind half toothless world. Instead the law of God is very clear. love God and love people, which is a lot more than eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Look, m I think it's real simple. My wife and I are having a problem in our marriage. Why shouldn't I go after a mistress if I love her? If my wife and I are having a problem in our marriage and I really love another woman, should I have sex with her or not? What do you think?

[00:07:41]>> No.

[00:07:42]>> Why not?

[00:07:42]>> Because you've made a commitment to your wife.

[00:07:44]>> Yeah. So what? I'm going to make a commitment to this other woman. In that commitment, you promised her that you would not do that. And additionally, there was also an issue with the you sleeping with the mistress, but in the sense of you wronging your wife, there there's the issue of you made a commitment to her.

[00:08:01]>> Okay, good. And so, what happens if she agrees with me to have an open marriage?

[00:08:05]Um, I would disagree that that the maybe necessarily premarital sex with the mistress is has an issue because it goes against what is honestly best for you and what's best for uh your well-being and health.

[00:08:19]>> How do you know what's best for my well-being and health?

[00:08:22]>> Logic.

[00:08:22]>> Logic. Well, I can promise you, ma'am, if you don't understand the logic of my wife and I are having real problems in our marriage, therefore, I need to have sex with a woman who really affirms me and encourages me and loves me and respects me. I disagree. My logic says it's just fine.

[00:08:39]>> Well, then I' I'd want to have a more thorough conversation about why you believe that.

[00:08:44]>> No, it's none of your business. I have logically decided that this is the best thing for me. So, how are you going to tell me that's wrong? Why? Where where do you get off telling me that it's wrong for me to do that?

[00:08:56]>> I'm not going to go up and tell you that, but that's what I believe.

[00:08:59]>> Why do you believe it's wrong?

[00:09:01]>> Because I think that's I don't think that that is going to foster a community, a healthy, loving community Christ centered.

[00:09:08]>> That's a beautiful feeling of yours. I got different feelings. Okay. So, have a great day. Ma'am, if you're going to base your ethics on feelings, on your logic, I can promise you there is a logic to some of the most radical Democrats and some of the most radical Republicans in our country today. And there better be something more to right and wrong and justice and injustice than just a logic or a feeling.

[00:09:33]Good and evil are rooted in the character of God. And that has been revealed in Jesus Christ.

[00:09:38]>> But I would say the character of God is logical >> at times. Yes. At times, no. It is not logical for me to forgive the person who cut me off at the knees.

[00:09:48]>> I disagree.

[00:09:49]>> I disagree with you.

[00:09:52]>> My logic says if you cut me off at the knees, I'm coming for your knees.

[00:09:57]>> I would disagree. I'd say that's your instinct, your survival instinct that says that.

[00:10:02]>> That's great, but don't minimize me that way because I've thought this through carefully and logically.

[00:10:07]>> Okay? And if you don't understand the logic that if someone cuts me off at the knees, I'm going to cut them off at the knees. I don't think you're thinking.

[00:10:14]>> I think that makes sense for a punitive justicism, but not a reconciliatory one.

[00:10:18]>> Well, great. So, why reconcile?

[00:10:21]>> Because that's better for society and we'd be able to progress more.

[00:10:25]>> Yeah. Bologoney. That's your opinion and that's all relative, ma'am, and you know it.

[00:10:30]>> Uh, I disagree. I think that we can look at studies and see that through various difference of justice systems, we can see that communities will thrive more when we they forgive each other and can reconcile.

[00:10:41]>> Okay.

[00:10:42]>> And if anything, I would say that's the picture of Jesus.

[00:10:45]>> Well, yeah. Now, we are getting back to the basis of right and wrong. Jesus, God, whose character is just and good, whose character defines right and wrong, good and evil, who has said very clearly, Cliff, you did make a commitment to your wife, and even though you're going through a difficult portion of your marriage, you better not cheat on her because that is unjust. That is lying. That is breaking a commitment, which is not wrong because the intelligencia in the United States says, "Oh, naughty, naughty, Cliff, don't do that." It's not because some psychologist says, "Well, psychologically studies show." No, it's the eternal God who has declared that marriage is a lifelong commitment between one man and one woman till death parts you and you don't bust it.

[00:11:30]>> So, okay. So, you're saying that it is wrong to cheat on your wife because that goes against Jesus in Christ and God.

[00:11:37]Correct.

[00:11:37]>> God's purpose for marriage, which is that I learn to reconcile with my wife, to forgive her, and she learns to reconcile with me and to forgive me. And this is not an issue of how we're feeling.

[00:11:48]>> And this is not just an issue of logic.

[00:11:52]>> Is God bound by right and wrong?

[00:11:55]>> No. God's character defines right and wrong throughout eternity.

[00:12:00]>> If God's character deemed u a prostitute or or uh yeah, a prostitute as the most moral thing you could do, like the equivalent of a pastor, would you still follow God?

[00:12:13]The reason that that is a tricky question that I'm beginning to question your motives is you know very well because you're intelligent enough to read the Bible that God would never call me to live a life of prostitution.

[00:12:25]And there is no standard outside of God that defines right and wrong better than God does. It's God's character that defines right and wrong. Because you have to have a personal being, a thinking being to understand right and wrong. That's why the whole argument that right and wrong are intrinsic to the universe is a croc. It's a total lie. What on earth do you mean right and wrong are intrinsic to the universe if the universe is just matter and energy because you don't get right and wrong out of matter and energy. It's impossible. You have to have a thinking mind to define right and wrong.

[00:13:01]>> So where are you coming from? What's your point? I got to >> My question is >> how would you define God's I guess I mean it's a >> Wait, sorry, but but what what are you?

[00:13:10]What are you? Come on. I I don't even know where to go because I have no idea.

[00:13:14]What are you?

[00:13:14]>> I say Christians would say that I'm not a Christian. Non-Christians would probably say that I am.

[00:13:20]>> I'm sorry. That's not an answer.

[00:13:21]>> Yeah, I don't know if we can get >> That's not an answer.

[00:13:24]>> You're doing a great job waffling all over the manscape. Come on, ma'am. Be honest with us. What are you? Who do you trust ultimately?

[00:13:32]Um, I trust God's I tr I trust God's nature.

[00:13:38]>> And how do you know God's nature?

[00:13:41]>> Uh, ultimately through studied and my personal experience.

[00:13:45]>> Okay, good. Then you're not a follower of Christ.

[00:13:48]>> Okay, that that's so that's >> so let's be honest. Okay, let's be honest with each other. I like honesty.

[00:13:52]Okay, if we can agree on that. I think so. You're not a follower of Christ.

[00:13:56]Instead, when it comes to living your life, you depend on your logic and your experience. Fine.

[00:14:01]>> I would say that you do the same as me.

[00:14:02]>> No, I do not. I depend upon Jesus Christ and at times I don't want to obey him.

[00:14:07]>> But >> but I submit to him because I think the evidence is he's reliable in a way that I am not. My feelings are mixed up. I've tried to communicate that for hours. And for me to put my faith in my feelings, Cliff, just follow your heart. Ma'am, Jesus points out that the heart is so mixed up. It's incredible. And Alexander Solzen did a great job showing that.

[00:14:30]Okay.

[00:14:30]>> But you're still choosing to follow something that you personally agree with that your personal experience has led you to believe in.

[00:14:37]>> No, not experience. Evidence and logic based off of historical evidence, not just my personal experience. It's not the Mormon type of nestling in the bosom and the burning of the bosom experience.

[00:14:49]This is based off historical evidence that he existed is a reliable character and taught out of his godlike nature.

[00:14:57]But so then you're submitting to logic and reasoning because the what you're truly trusting is the historical evidence that you believe says that this is correct and then you're following that. Well, you're ultimately right or disagree >> disagree.

[00:15:11]>> The Holy Spirit is also the big operator here. I've never converted anybody. I've never intellectually persuaded anybody to follow Christ. It's the Holy Spirit that draws a person deep in their heart.

[00:15:23]Now, do we use logic? Yes. Do we use evidence? Yes. Do we use experience and observation? Yes. But ultimately, ma'am, I've never converted anybody. I've never changed anybody's heart. That is God's Holy Spirit deep within them working.

[00:15:38]And when he went through his doubts, I didn't intimidate him. I didn't demean him. I prayed for him like I prayed for him like blazes. And I sought to answer his questions. He's got to make his own decision. But ultimately, it's him responding to God's Holy Spirit. And if you think that so many people are sitting here because we too can speak, I disagree strongly. I am convinced the only reason you guys are taking time out of your busy schedules to be here is because God loves every single one of you. And by his Holy Spirit, he draws you to himself.

[00:16:12]>> And golly whoers, you guys got to make a decision. You're going to follow the urgings of God, the pull of God on your heart, or you going to say no? Now, obviously, what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to rip apart your smoke screens.

[00:16:22]And I'm trying to do that with you right now cuz I think you got some major smoke screens, ma'am, to tell you the truth.

[00:16:26]You're playing an intellectual game that leads nowhere. It's based on feelings.

[00:16:30]And that's the way you you framed it real well and put it together well. And you're smart. You're very intelligent.

[00:16:36]But come on, let's be honest. What's the bottom line?

[00:16:39]>> Of what?

[00:16:41]>> Of who or what you're living for? What's the foundation of your life?

[00:16:44]>> Uh, lots of things, but uh ultimately to serve my purpose.

[00:16:48]>> Yeah, ultimately it's you, right?

[00:16:51]Uh, sure. But I would say that my purpose is given to me by God.

[00:16:56]>> Well, how do you know what God's purpose for you is?

[00:16:58]>> Uh, I would say probably personal revelation.

[00:17:01]>> Uh-huh. And how do you know that your personal revelation is not an upset stomach you're having over indigestion?

[00:17:07]>> Uh, I would I would ask you the same thing.

[00:17:12]>> I'll tell you exactly how. Because I look at Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is not an experience. Jesus Christ is not just logic. Although experience and logic are important, but that's just part of the scheme. The bottom line is he is reliable. You can trust him.

[00:17:28]>> Why would you say that he is reliable?

[00:17:30]Like what?

[00:17:30]>> I've already answered that.

[00:17:32]>> What did the answer I gave you >> through historical evidence? Is that >> Yeah, that's exactly right. The evidence of his life, teachings, death, and resurrection is he's reliable.

[00:17:40]>> But you've so you've created God in in your own image, and God has been revealed to us through something called the Bible. Whether you consider the Bible reliable or not is the strong question. And if you consider reliable and who Jesus said he was and the characteristics of God say fleshed out beautifully in the Psalms, for example, that's revelation. And we better submit to that God that has clearly revealed himself, that he's all holy, all powerful, all knowing, that he's willing to die on a cross for us. Okay, that's revelation versus you saying, I believe in a God who gives me my purpose, me, myself, and I. I don't think you're a selfish person, but that sounds tremendously selfish in the sense of I've created God in my own purpose and he's going to fit my purpose. And that's the typical college student across America. If God is my therapist and fits my purpose and really en enables and imbuss me with my authentic self, then I believe in God. But that is your invention.

[00:18:35]>> You're inventing a God. Correct.

[00:18:37]>> But I would argue that you Well, okay.

[00:18:40]>> No, come on. Spit it out. I WANT TO HEAR THAT ONE.

[00:18:44]>> I would argue that you >> postmodern >> have also created a picture of God and everyone here in this room has >> I have stood out here and repeatedly said God is not a Republican or a Democrat. God is Jesus was not a white guy 6'1 in who liked basketball like I do. No, Jesus was a real person and it has nothing to do with being a white guy or being a lover of basketball.

[00:19:14]He claims to be the eternal God revealing himself in human form. He's either lying through his teeth or not.

[00:19:19]Ma'am, it's real simple. Hi, my name's Cliff. What's your name?

[00:19:22]>> Muriel.

[00:19:22]>> And >> Muriel.

[00:19:24]>> Theodora.

[00:19:26]>> Theodora.

[00:19:28]>> What's your name?

[00:19:29]>> Muriel.

[00:19:30]>> You see, not only I'm being rude to her, I'm being an arrogant twit. I think I know your name better than you do. No, I have to have the humility to allow Muriel to reveal herself to me as Muriel. Well, if that's true between Muriel and me, it's really true between God and me. I'm not going to know God by figuring him out. He has to reveal himself. And according to Christ, he has revealed himself. And according to Christ, he really loves you.

[00:19:57]>> I I I agree that. And I would agree that God has revealed himself to I would almost say all of us in different forms.

[00:20:04]and a reveal different.

[00:20:05]>> No, >> I just >> I am not Jesus. I am not God. And if you put your faith in me, you're an idiot cuz I am a very fickle, very finite human being. And I will fail you. God won't. Christ will not fail you. I will fail you.

[00:20:21]>> But but what is Christ?

[00:20:23]>> He's a real person who really lived, taught, died, and rose from the dead. He ascended to heaven. He's in spirit form now. And by his Holy Spirit, he really loves you, and he's drawing it to himself. Would you say this same thing to a Muslim?

[00:20:36]>> If a Muslim pastor had put themsel in this position. Yeah.

[00:20:40]>> In this in this position. So you would say this to any any type of spiritual leader of any religion. I would not say it to a a Musl Muslim pastor. I don't know if there's Muslim pastor. Yeah. I I I think you got to be very careful with this one because it becomes very rude to just about 90% of the world because 90% of the world does not say we create our gods in our own image. They say no, it's been revealed to the Quran, the uppanads, the Bible, it goes on and on.

[00:21:08]Confucious's teachings. But you're basically standing here saying no, you guys all have different parts of the elephant and you're blind. You have the leg, one of you has the trunk, one of you has the ear, and you have this hyper vigilance, this type of sight over it all. You're the only one who can see.

[00:21:25]Everybody else is blind. And you're saying you guys are just all grabbing different parts of the elephant.

[00:21:30]>> Okay. I think I may have either misspoke or you misunderstand me because I don't think that we make the image of oursel, but we each have Would you would you agree that even you and Stuart probably have a different idea of God, even if it's slightly different? Yeah, we have a different idea of you.

[00:21:46]>> Yeah.

[00:21:46]>> All right. That says nothing about reality. Reality is you or you. And I don't care if we have a different view of you. What I'm going to challenge him is, "Hey, Stuart, respect this young lady. She's very smart. She's asking us hard questions. So, be respectful of her." And he's going to say to me, "Yeah, well, Dad, you respect her. Don't get so intense with her." All right.

[00:22:08]So, but the point is, you are you.

[00:22:11]You're not a construct I'm creating and we either get in touch with you or we miss you. The point is God is real.

[00:22:18]Jesus is real. Get in touch with him.

[00:22:24]>> And I would ask you who he is. We get in touch with >> Read the Gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. That's the best answer.

[00:22:31]>> Okay. And I I would say that I >> Come on. Give me that liberal theology.

[00:22:35]I know the I've been schooled in it. I had to go through all of it at Davidson College in North Carolina. And I had to debate Barterman and you're doing a good job articulating it very well.

[00:22:45]>> I would say that I have read the gospels and I and I have my own idea of what I believe God is and what is >> Is he a Republican?

[00:22:52]>> No.

[00:22:53]>> Is he a Democrat?

[00:22:54]>> No.

[00:22:54]>> Good. What is he then? Or she or it or they or whatever they are.

[00:22:57]>> Um he is truth. He is love. He is logic.

[00:23:01]He is not a he. He is a beautiful thing that allows us to love each other.

[00:23:05]>> How about it? Is God an it? Uh, I would say that he is something that allows us to have community and creates us and that's beautiful.

[00:23:15]>> Good. That is beautiful. So good to talk. Keep going. Yes, ma'am. You're next.

[00:23:30]My question is a little bit similar to I don't know who just spoke or where she went, but I kind of want to talk to her after um because she had a lot of good points. Um but my question was more of an observation um is that I think for a lot of non-believers including myself one of the largest barriers to starting the conversation and beginning to bridge the gap and talk to people who are believers is the dogmatic aspect of Christianity. Um, and the idea that you either accept it in its totality or you do not. Um, >> yeah.

[00:24:12]>> And I know when I come into a conversation, I come into it expecting to have my opinions changed and expecting to find flaws in my worldview no matter who I'm talking to if it's an important topic.

[00:24:24]>> Yep. So for me it can be difficult to come and approach Christian speakers because I don't expect them to have the same framework for coming into the conversation for saying I'm expecting to learn from this person and perhaps change my own opinions about the content of our discussion.

[00:24:43]>> I understand.

[00:24:44]>> So what would you say is the best response to someone like that who has an issue with the dogmatic aspect of religion? How would you >> You bet. I am sick and tired of you people who insist that 2 plus 2 equals 4. Can't you be open-minded enough to realize that 2 plus two might equal five or three?

[00:25:03]I am so sick and tired of professors who flunk. You guys, they should have the open-mindedness to realize that the real authentic you just float out all over the exam paper and you really tried to answer the question that was asked on the exam to the best of your ability. So why would they have the audacity to say you're wrong? Because there is such a thing as truth, ma'am.

[00:25:25]>> Yes.

[00:25:25]>> And absolutely I'm really ticked with these police officers who insist that the one way of doing things is right.

[00:25:30]And if you don't do it the right way, you're going to go to prison. Well, sorry guys. There is evil and there is good. And if you do evil, you'll end up in a prison cell. And I'm very grateful that the police officers hold to that.

[00:25:44]And I'm very grateful that the university professors push you guys to get in touch with reality and not just put out your slobber all over the exam paper.

[00:25:52]>> I definitely like I I think one of the beliefs that I hold strongest is that objective reality does exist.

[00:25:59]>> Good. Um and it is accessible to humans as in >> um what I disagree with personally just my personal belief is that >> like achieving complete understanding of objective reality is impossible for any individual.

[00:26:14]>> That's right.

[00:26:15]>> I think you can get closer to it >> y >> through conversations with others and through data sets and through logic and through all of the things that the speaker before me said. Um, which is why I'm constantly open to changing my beliefs.

[00:26:31]>> Are you?

[00:26:32]>> I I believe so. Yeah.

[00:26:34]>> Okay.

[00:26:35]>> Because I have a lot of friends who are always chasing the horizon.

[00:26:40]>> And the closer you get to the horizon, it always recedes.

[00:26:43]>> Yes.

[00:26:44]>> So that's a world view. It's a worldview that says you cannot know truth.

[00:26:47]Certainly >> because truth is always out there somewhere. You can never sink your teeth into anything. There's nothing solid.

[00:26:56]It's just the always the receding sunset and you can never catch the sunset. It just keeps on going in front of you. And that is counter to a worldview that says no, you can know truth.

[00:27:09]>> I think a better way of describing my worldview would be um increased certainty. Not that I can never sink my teeth into anything that's true or factual, but that I can never be 100% certain.

[00:27:20]>> Neither can I. I can't be 100% certain either. I agree totally.

[00:27:24]>> Great. Um then I think the only difference between the different worldviews other other than the minutia in the framework is that for me to accept Christianity I have to accept the entire package like the the dogmatic aspect of it. Um instead of being able to say you know I agree with a lot of aspects of of the religion but maybe not one of the key principles. Um, and that's one of the things that I feel is hardest for atheists who are trying to come closer to a conversation.

[00:27:59]>> Mhm.

[00:28:00]>> It's hard for them to begin.

[00:28:02]>> Okay.

[00:28:04]Well, keep going. Read the Gospels, examine Christ, and see if the evidence is he's reliable.

[00:28:08]>> Wait, what specifically is, again, flesh that out one more time. What what's what's the holdup? The obstacle? Um the hold up for me and for a lot of my friends who I invited to come to this and decided not to >> was that they don't like the idea that um you guys hold in your minds that you already know the truth and that you're just trying to convince us because that creates an uneven playing field.

[00:28:32]>> Uneven because we've studied it more.

[00:28:35]>> No, no, no, no, no. um uneven because you believe that your worldview is 100% certain.

[00:28:43]>> You believe in your worldview just as strongly as we believe in ours. You're proitizing just as hard as we are.

[00:28:48]>> Everyone believes that the opinions they hold are true.

[00:28:51]>> Yeah.

[00:28:51]>> But I think you guys have more of a certainty than non-believers do.

[00:28:55]>> No, I doubt all the time.

[00:28:56]>> No.

[00:28:57]>> Like I live in doubt. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:59]Absolutely. David was allowed to doubt.

[00:29:00]The man after God's own heart, he doubted constantly. And he was considered the top dog. really doubting Thomas encouraged to doubt in many ways.

[00:29:07]Habach encouraged to doubt. So, so no, no, nobody ever has the absolute truth.

[00:29:11]That's why we live off of faith. There's no proof within faith.

[00:29:14]>> Okay. Then the Okay, then the difference would be your faith in Jesus versus the non-belief. Okay. Um >> my atheist friends are just as committed to their worldview as I am committed to Christ.

[00:29:27]>> Yes.

[00:29:27]>> And my agnostic friends are just as committed to their worldview as I am to Christ. And if they tell me otherwise, they're lying through their teeth. I respect this NYU professor who went to the Billy Graham crusade in Queens. He met a grad student that he taught from Eastern Europe. And this grad student comes up to him and said, "I just went forward and accepted Christ." And this brilliant NYU professor is just about to say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Time out. Billy Graham is a hick from North Carolina. He's a conservative, narrow-minded, but he stopped himself and he realized, I'm doing nothing different than what you Billy Graham just did. Billy Graham called this Eastern European student to accept Christ, to convert and put his faith in Christ. And I'm calling this Eastern European student to reject Christ and to realize there is no such thing as a personal God who you can really connect with. And I respect that NYU professor because he shut his mouth because he realized I'm a hypocrite. I'm accusing Graham of doing something. I'm doing the same thing. That's what I call intellectual honesty. And I am so frustrated. I'll give you another example. University of Texas. This professor comes up to me and says, "Cliff, I hope you realize that you're much older than these students are. You have more education than they do. It's not a fair debate." And I said, "Guess what, professor? It sounds like you're in the same position as I am. You're older than these students. You're more educated than these students. So you and I had better have the openness and honesty to allow people to disagree, to express tolerance, but to allow people to follow evidence to a conclusion.

[00:31:04]>> Yeah.

[00:31:05]>> Yeah.

[00:31:05]>> My my intent with the question was not to how to word it. Um I don't think it's wrong to have faith.

[00:31:15]>> Thank you.

[00:31:16]>> In your belief, but um >> like you have faith in your belief, >> right? Everybody does, right? Um my intention was just to to highlight the fact that one of the biggest barriers for non-believers is the fact that there's a dogmatic aspect to Christianity that there isn't in non-believing and that is a barrier. Um and I was just wondering how you would help non-believers overcome that barrier. Not not that it's not that your dogmatic belief is wrong, just that it's a difference that makes it more difficult for people who aren't already looking for Christ to come towards >> that. Not that that agnostic for us is typically just as dogmatic, if not more dogmatic than any dogmatism that's in scripture. Because I'll go to them and I'll say it's like the one man I was sitting in my office one day a few years ago. He was about 85 years old, very old. comes storming into my office, storming through the ladies and and men in our office, almost like jumps my table, looking so mad at me. I've never even met the guy before. And he said, "You've sold out. You've given up. You found the truth. I myself have not found the truth." And that's how everybody should be. We should just keep going to no disrespect at all, but what you said earlier, we should just slowly gradually try and get to certainty at some point. Does that sound dogmatic?

[00:32:37]Yeah, sure.

[00:32:38]>> Tremendously dogmatic. And so the majority of agnostics, I respect them dearly, respect you a lot and thank you for speaking, but there is just as much if not more dogmatism in that. And Jesus Christ was against dogmatism. The Pharisees were the most dogmatic types alive. And Jesus went after religion over and over again and said, "It's not about self-righteousness. It's not about judgmentalism. It's about a relationship with me. It's not about something that you can do to attain heaven. So you look down on others who can't attain heaven."

[00:33:06]Okay. Well, then I think you've answered my question, Ben. Thank you.

[00:33:10]>> Thank you so much for raising it.

[00:33:14]Thank you very much.

[00:33:17]>> Hey guys, thanks so much for tuning in to this episode. Like and hit that subscribe button in order to join the family. Also want to invite you to our church where we pastor at in New Canaan, Connecticut. It's called Grace Community Church. We are currently meeting at a middle school, Saxs Middle School, and we start at 9:30 a.m. Hope to meet you there. See you soon.