The Truth Behind America's Disappearing Farmers | What Nobody's Talking About

[00:00:00]We're going to live in a world where we're going to have food scarcity. We're going to live in a world where we're going to have spiking prices all the time and it's going to just continue to get worse and worse until all of a sudden we've got the system collapsing and they're screaming too big to fail like there were with our with our cash machines and the money not coming out of the bank when we needed it.

[00:00:22]>> This is Louis Zumba with Rush Hour.

[00:00:24]Leave your message after the tone.

[00:00:26][music] >> Hey Lou, it's Elliot Henderson. Can't wait to tell you about >> rolling down the back road with the dust. Talking [music] agulture policy with people you can trust. From the field to the capital, we're breaking it down. Real talk. Real issues from a real town. Every hour when the world won't [music] so we're cutting through the noise and setting things straight. Hey, what's your rush today, Ellie?

[00:00:59]Welcome listeners to another episode of Rush Hour A. We are uh actually doing our podcast virtually today. So, I'm in Kagan. Elliot, he's in Independence. And our guest, >> I'm in Cedar Falls right now.

[00:01:15]>> Cedar Falls, excuse me, at the side farm. And our guest, we'll get to him in a minute. So, Elliot, what have you been up to?

[00:01:21]>> Well, right now I'm trying to get a pivot moving out of the way so I can spray.

[00:01:26]>> Yeah. Do you spray with the pivot?

[00:01:28]>> No, I don't. I don't put anything through it.

[00:01:30]>> Okay. You know, >> we could we could inject chems or fertilizer, but I don't >> I this was a gift from a friend in Texas to my wife. However, I think of you. Uh it's a it's a cowboy hat for the narrowminded cowboy.

[00:01:53]>> Yeah. Surprised that don't fit on you.

[00:01:55]No, I got it. It remind me of you, not me, >> right?

[00:02:00]>> I thought that was kind of funny. So, my friend got it in 1987, it says. So, it's been around for a little while.

[00:02:07]>> Anyhow, why don't you tell us, Elliot, a little about who we got on the show today.

[00:02:11]>> Yeah. So, we got Brian Reese Reinger. Am I saying that right, Brian?

[00:02:17]>> Risinger.

[00:02:18]>> Risinger. Why wouldn't I mess it up?

[00:02:21]Brian wrote the book Landri Rich Cash Poor.

[00:02:25]And you read the book, Louie.

[00:02:26]>> I've got the book. I don't have it completely read, I'll be honest, but I've been working.

[00:02:31]>> Well, I Brian on today so he can tell us all about it.

[00:02:36]>> Yep. So, so yeah, it's great to have you. It's been a good book.

[00:02:40]>> Well, thanks very much. It's good to be with you guys. I appreciate it. You know, I always love talking to hosts out there who are talking about egg issues, who actually live egg issues and farming. And, you know, just these first couple minutes of banter. your your audience knows this about you guys, but you guys live it. So, I'm excited to be here. And, you know, look, I grew up in an environment not unlike where you and a lot of your listeners are likely are.

[00:03:01]I grew up in the little hillier where I'm from up in southern Wisconsin, but dairy farmer, we grow corn, soybeans, hay, all that. And, uh, and man, livestock and whatnot. And we talk about all that in the book, but really what the book is doing is talking about why are our farms been disappearing? Whether it's small, medium, large, one type, another, every shape and size, we've had farms disappearing in this country actually for a century. And I grew up knowing that. I grew up working my dad in the farmyard. And I remember guys rolling in the gravel popping under the tires and they'd roll the window down and say, you know, this farm sold, this farm went under. I mean, you guys have lived that, too. Why has that been going on? I wanted to answer that. So, when I pursued my writing craft, the farm, it was really about answering that question. and landrich cash poor gets into why over the past hundred years have that we've been losing our farms.

[00:03:50]How does that tie to the challenges that agriculture is facing right now and the solutions that is out there for agriculture right now? And then we that with our family story and we tell the stories of farm accidents and weather that as you well know can bless and threaten everything in between to try to share the personal story of what's it like trying to make a living feeding the rest of the country uh or providing its fiber or its fuel.

[00:04:14]I know in Wisconsin especially uh the number of dairy farms has has plummeted.

[00:04:19]Yeah.

[00:04:20]>> Uh over the years partially maybe was it just easier to milk in California at one time or or what do you I know a lot of them went there Arizona.

[00:04:30]>> Yeah.

[00:04:32]>> You know that's an element of it for sure. um you had you know look I mean some of these places have whether it's climate or whether it's the ability whatever they have they've got you know just you know it's conducive right and there's something to be said for that the other thing that's going on though big picture I mean something that we've all lived in one way or another is that whole they call it get big or get out right and whether people like it or hate it that get big or get out force has just been underway for decades now and it's just this notion that you know dairy farms just like any other type of farm it's like hey you know Look, as you know, your input costs are going up. The price that you get for your milk or whatever your livestock or or crop is or whatever your product is isn't going up.

[00:05:13]Often times, it's staying the same. If you're lucky, it might be going down.

[00:05:16]So, how do you how do you deal with that squeeze? Well, one of the ways you can deal with it is just by getting bigger.

[00:05:21]And I always tell people the farms have gotten bigger. They've done that trying to survive the same get bigger, get out forces that have wiped out the other ones. What I did when I started investigating this is what are the things really driving that get big or get out phenomena. Why is that happening? And I found three big things and our family lived it. Your guys families have lived it I'm sure and you see it in the broader economy. One is every time there's an economic crisis in this country, whether it's the depression, the farm crisis, whether it's, you know, the recessions of the last, you know, you know, decade or two, our country never realizes the unique way it hits the farmer. Every time you look at a crisis, it's like, okay, everybody's facing some sort of economic consequence. Our country doesn't understand what's happening to the farmer on the ground. Second thing is government policy from both parties over the years, one decade or to pick your party, pick your decade. You know, there's all kinds of things, government policies that made it worse. And then the other thing is technology. And you guys see this with their tractors and and other implements and things. It's like, look, a lot of the technology is geared toward those farms that are adding field rows and adding number animals to their to their buildings and that's fine. That's all well and good.

[00:06:27]Those farms need that. But what about those midsize and small farms? Do we have technology that can also work for them and increasingly over the past half century we haven't. So it doesn't have to be that way, but it it has been. And if we could have technology and innovation help all of our farms, whatever their size and shape, a lot more of them can make it too. So those economic crises, those governmental policies and that technological double sword I call it have really been the things that have been driving get big or get out beneath the surface.

[00:06:56]>> Well, that technology piece I would probably even, you know, add to that the miracle of modern medicine and people living longer.

[00:07:04]>> Yeah. Oh yeah.

[00:07:05]>> It has, you know, created somewhat of a burden in our industry where, you know, got to feed more mouths with the acre that we're producing onto.

[00:07:13]>> Yeah, that's absolutely right. And there's more burdens of productivity like produce more and more and more with lower and lower costs being placed on the farmer at all times. And farmers are ready to meet that challenge, right?

[00:07:24]Resourceful, hard work. I mean, my god, you know, like the farms, any farm I know these days, I mean, maybe a couple decades ago, you might have found some farms that were farms that, you know, could do with a little efficiency. I don't know a farm that's still making it that doesn't run like a top. I got to say, you know, >> yeah, there ain't such thing as a bad farmer anymore. I mean, there really isn't. pick on some neighbors here and there, but for the most part, anybody who's farming today is pretty darn good farmer by today's standards.

[00:07:50]>> You got to be to make it these days, right? You got to be to make it.

[00:07:54]>> And it's gotten easy. It's pretty damn easy.

[00:07:58]>> Out of the three things that you mentioned, I don't see any of those things slowing down.

[00:08:04]>> Yeah.

[00:08:05]>> So, so, uh, I agree. I'd like to see I'd like to see younger people being able to start farming and and but you know really in reality we see the bigger getting bigger and at some point they tend to hire South Americans to come do the work. I can't quite figure that out.

[00:08:24]How big do you need to be that you need to do that? But uh do you ever see this changing or is it just going to get to where you know at one time I was a fairly large farmer. I'm not any I haven't lost I mean I haven't changed acres barely myself the farm has because I got a couple young guys that farm with me so obviously we've grown but but uh my acres haven't changed and I'm no longer a big farmer. Uh at what point do you do you see this changing or is it just something we're going to have to live with or or do you think and get back to the dairy industry. Do you see the dairy industry coming back a little bit in Wisconsin or is it gone forever or I know I'm whipping in a lot of things here but go ahead.

[00:09:04]>> I'll tell you you're hitting on the exact issue. You know, is it always going to be like this? And I always tell people it sure will be if we don't make some changes, but we got to accept that doesn't have to be. And the reason I say that is look, I can't tell you that any one particular sector is going to wind back the clock and have smaller farms.

[00:09:25]Like dairy in Wisconsin, there's still a good amount of small and mid-size dairy farms because there's a decent amount of small and mid-size cheese factories. And you know, Wisconsin cheese being kind of a delicacy across the country is a wonderful thing. It's a way that you can have farmers who aren't just producing in bulk producing something special and it helps. So we've we've held on to some of them. But can I wind back the clock?

[00:09:44]Can I tell you, hey, you know, Derry's going to go back to having, you know, way more larger number of small farms.

[00:09:49]He can't really wind back that clock.

[00:09:51]But we can create opportunities for new entrepreneur opportunity for our farmers. So, in other words, those farmers that are um midsized and smaller that used to be midsized or larger for dairy or for corn or whatever it is, you know, um having new entrepreneur opportunities where maybe you're making some of your money on your row crops, you're making some of your money milking cows or what have you, and you're raising some of it raising beef or raising specialty crops or pasture-raised chickens or all these different things. And the reason I say it's possible is because more people than ever care about where their food comes from these days. And it doesn't feel like that all the time, especially on the farm. When you hear people saying, "Oh, the food comes from the store and all that." It's like, my god, there's a lot of work to do to help people understand where their food comes from. There is a lot more work to do.

[00:10:37]But there are more people than care about it forever. There's more people going to farmers markets, more people accessing online markets, more people willing to buy local from a farmer, you know, buying beef on the hoof or what have you. There's more interest in it than there ever was. A lot of that comes out of co. So you got farms that might have made all their money milking cows or all their money raising one or two types of crops. There's an opportunity for small amounts of diversification.

[00:10:59]The kind of diversification that got wiped out in the farm crisis, right?

[00:11:02]Used to be a lot of guys would have a trailer of pigs they could slaughter now and then when they needed to in addition to whatever crops they were growing that a lot of that stuff got pushed out, right? People care about where their food comes from as a chance for us all to diversify. And I'm not saying that any one new crop or product is going to solve their problems.

[00:11:19]But if we can find a way where there can be additional streams of income, some side income in addition to the traditional stuff, there is a way for more farms to find more types of income and make it there has to be more things to change for it to happen more widespread. I call it just a glimmer and we got to kind of it's like an ember in a fire. We got to blow on that thing, you know?

[00:11:38]>> Yeah, I hear what you're saying though.

[00:11:40]But like if you don't address this labor thing with H2A like >> Yeah. Yeah. every time. All these things that you're talking about is all based on somebody's value in their labor. And if you continue to allow H2A labor just to step in and a single operator to capitalize on cheaper labor to do what you're doing, you're you're always going to snuff out that margin that's being made doing that. And I I don't know. It pisses me off. If we're going to allow all this H2A labor into this country, >> well, none of this land's going to sit idle. Somebody somebody's going to farm it. Somebody's going to milk these cows if it's profitable enough. But as you continue to bring in this H2A labor, it just snuffs out the opportunity of somebody that's willing to do it.

[00:12:28]>> Well, look, there's all kinds of great big structural problems that our federal government is creating, right? We got this little glimmer of people caring about where their food comes from. I say that's an opportunity. It's a small one that we got to build. Well, we got to get barriers from our government out of the way. And there are all kinds of barriers put in place over decades.

[00:12:43]Another one, for example, is we talked about technology, right? Well, one of the reasons technology is going so far in the direction of only serving certain types of farms is because we don't have government research focused on trying to make sure you got scale neutral. You know, we got all this taxpayer money getting spent on research for, you know, one innovation or another. Why aren't we making sure that that is something that can create what they call scale neutral technology where it's technology can be used by small medium as well as large farms? Our markets, you know, let's make sure that the the trade is fair. You know, we need open markets to be able to sell more of our crops abroad and keep the price higher. We need to make sure those markets are fair. We aren't getting screwed.

[00:13:22]>> Like the scale, you're scale neutral.

[00:13:25]>> Yeah.

[00:13:25]>> We are like on the precipice of that being more mainstream than anything with AI. Everybody can take advantage of the internet. Anybody can take advantage of of AI. Right now, >> we have more opportunity for it. There are things like that. But here's the thing. Every time we've had a technology for the past century and we had a chance to make sure that it's something that farms of all types and sizes can access, we've screwed it up. And the reality is we can do better with and I'll just give you two scenarios. One scenario where AI could be really challenging you can imagine is really monstrous big big big machinery all being controlled through a variety of screens really you mean one human if you even need that human those are the kinds of operations that only our biggest guys and god bless them they got you know they're trying to figure out how to make make it but only those guy the biggest guys are going to be able to afford that there's also technology they call it small modular vehicles and the idea is you could use it for spraying or soil testing different things like that and you know they're modular meaning you can buy one and it's a small unit or you can buy a bunch of them they can be connected and so that's something where a guy who's got a 100 acre farm or a guy who's got a 10,000 acre farm it's not a fundamentally different technology it's just how many of these modules are you going to buy and maybe the small one can be economical for the small farmer like for instance dairy farms and we talk about this in the book but dairy farms you know it's moved toward parlors and bigger and bigger and bigger parlors, right? Well, when my parents needed to innovate the milk barn back in the 70s and 80s to help deal with the mastitis that their f herd was facing and it was taught to wipe out the herd, they installed a pipeline that was scale neutral. You have a great big pipeline or you have a smaller pipeline, take the milk from the cows, otters to the bulk tank and the milk house. Roughly speaking, that's scale neutral. They could afford to finance that. So, we can use AI to create more and more types of technology that do exactly what you're saying and everyone can access the internet. We can have more technological innovation reach more of our farms. Or we can let a couple big companies decide that it's going to be technology that's just going to be for the big guys and it's going to squeeze out everybody else.

[00:15:29]>> And I we're not big livestock guys.

[00:15:32]We're, you know, pretty much real crop, but uh him and I probably disagree on this to some extent, but I see this as being the nail in the coffin that kills tenant farming. you're going to be able just to be an estate owner and you'll be able to buy this module for whatever size estate you have and you'll no longer need a tenant to do the work.

[00:15:54]>> Yeah. I mean, that's certainly the case if we go the route with the big technology, right? Where you can do it all basically remotely. Um I think a lot of these small farms, we have an opportunity for technology that can be skill neutral that works there and you still got to have people there making decisions on the ground on the farm. But to your point, I mean, you know, we got to be we got to be careful that we're protecting our owner operators. You know, those families that are living on the farm and operating it and owning it.

[00:16:17]That is a that is a valuable American asset that we have that a lot of countries wiped out a long time ago. But back to the labor thing, we continue to devalue that owner operator.

[00:16:32]we continue to add value to the people that are willing to do it and cover larger scale and hire these lower wage workers to where how's the next generation supposed to get in and and operate that homestead or operate that, you know, it doesn't take much now to have a multi-million dollar estate.

[00:16:49]>> Yeah, the labor is a challenging one, right? Because you got the farms that, to your point, I mean, it's it's putting them in a position where they're not going to be able to compete with that kind of scale. And then we got other farms that are producing that, you know, for whatever reason they can't find the workers they need and they need them. So it's kind of in a it's kind of in a pickle and it kind of puts farmer against farmer depending on the type of operation you got. Right. And that's >> where's where's the scenario though that somebody can't find labor. Is it that they can't find labor? Is that they just can't find somebody that wants to work for them?

[00:17:16]>> Sure.

[00:17:17]>> This work's going to get done. There's no there's not a farm here in Iowa that won't get farmed because somebody can't find labor.

[00:17:24]>> Yeah.

[00:17:26]will farm that farm if they can't find the South Africans to do it. Somebody will farm that land.

[00:17:31]>> Yeah, it's a fair question. I mean, you know, it might be one of those where, you know, one of those big farms that says they need that labor, they go away and then the thing gets sold if you were to chop that thing up and sell it to a couple different market farms that are trying to grow uh, you know, stuff for a farmers market. I mean, a lot of those guys like 50 to 100 acres, you know, they love having that kind of scale. So, there's there's more ways than just bigger to your point. um if we want to allow it to be done >> there there are more ways than just bigger but a few things that you said that actually uh we had the Marian city of Marian Chamber of Commerce had an event and we hosted them at the farm for for their dinner >> and they had a panel up there and one of the panelists was from a local very well-known uh uh oh packing not packing plant but >> butcher. There you go. But very well known to the area. Most I mean a lot of people go there. They do an excellent job.

[00:18:28]>> And she actually had said that the peak was kind of during COVID and they they really went up and ramped up and and built on and and uh you know we're doing better. And now it's gone back to precoid.

[00:18:41]>> Yep.

[00:18:43]>> And basically back to where it was. And I know several people that have went out and tried to be their own marketers selling their own uh pork or beef that have since found it to be much more difficult than what it appears like it's going to be.

[00:18:59]>> Yeah.

[00:19:00]>> Because at the end of the day, I believe most people don't want to pay the extra money that it takes to to buy that product. Uh >> yeah. you know, they'd rather go to the supermarket and and yeah, they want to know where it's from, but at the end of the day, if it's going to cost a couple dollars more to know where it's from, we're content knowing it's from America, >> maybe, you know. Yeah, I actually see farming going a little different and and maybe I'm full of water here, but but you know, if you are a young person that really wants to farm today and maybe I don't know how Wisconsin prices are where you're at, they're probably softer than where we are, though, but you still have good ground in Wisconsin and and farmable ground. Uh I actually wonder if if going away from technology is a way for a younger person to do it. You know, you don't have to have a AR 410, if that's even a current number. They change the numbers so fast, I don't hardly keep up. Uh, you can go back to having a a 4020 and a and a 445 or 4430.

[00:20:08]They're not cheap either, but you could go back to that and not have all the technology. Or I know I got a tractor that we have a globe on top and the steering wheel you take out, you put a different steering wheel in it. Uh, you can do it. You can do it way cheaper and still have some technology and not have to have the latest and greatest. Uh there's another podcaster. I I don't call him podcaster. He doesn't do it inside the studio. And I can't tell you who it is. I would if I could. I just don't remember. He's from Minnesota, younger fella that uses a lot of stuff from the 90s, you know, and he's making it all work. Looks like he's doing doing a pretty good job.

[00:20:44]>> Yep. Uh, so maybe that's the answer that that you don't need the the latest and greatest, but you need the access to the ground and that and that's that's the the deciding factor too. That seems to be a big barrier.

[00:20:58]>> You know, Elliot, farmers are what keeps this country moving. Early mornings, lawn days, and doing whatever it takes to get the job done. That's why we need good equipment we can count on.

[00:21:07]>> That's for sure, Louie. And that's where Sukup Manufacturing Company comes in.

[00:21:11]For over 60 years, they've been manufacturing grain storage, drying, and handling equipment that's made to work just as hard as the people using it. And you know, the SUKUP team doesn't just sit behind a desk either. They're out there talking with farmers, seeing what works, and always making sure they provide the best products possible.

[00:21:29]>> SUKUP is built to help our operations run stronger, safer, and more efficient than ever. And that's why you need to find a dealer near you at soukup.com.

[00:21:39]Yeah, I actually agree with that and that fits with the idea of skill neutral technology because what you're doing is you're sidest stepping that dilemma.

[00:21:46]Look, if you got a type of crop and you got ground that you can work with an older 4440 or what have you, you keep that thing running, you know what I mean? Good for you. You know what I mean?

[00:21:56]>> Scale neutral to to your both your points. The problem though is the policy, you know, where you how's that land become available when you've got H2A labor or you've got these direct payment programs or crop insurance subsidy programs. You crowd out that that person that wants to step into the market that will do the work and that will compete.

[00:22:17]>> Yep.

[00:22:19]>> You make it so that only certain crops make sense to grow too yet and all that stuff. I mean, look, here's here's the thing. whether it's immigration or any other thing. I'm been saying to people that what we need to do is I mean look these are big problems and they take big solutions. We need to step back and what we actually need is politicians on both sides of the aisle willing to work on what I've called a bipartisan family farm moonshot. What I mean by that is we've been piling up government programs since the great depression and a little bit before then and we really haven't done any assessment on which ones are still working, which ones are contradictory and which ones are prone to favoritism and abuse and all those things. to your point Elliot are barriers to entry where you know for one reason or another this programs don't build up and some of them are helping small farms some medium and large but at the end of the day we don't know which ones of these are working anymore and a lot of them really make it so that like look if you don't have great big equipment to grow a certain couple types of crops and you aren't willing to do it on a certain scale you're going to get eventually you're either not going to be able to get in or you're going to get forced out by get bigger get out. So, we need an entire government overhaul. Not only how to handle the immigration dilemma, but how to handle the way our subsidies work, how to handle all the way the crop programs work, so that you can have more farmers saying, "Hey, you know what? I might be able to make a go of it doing this new thing in addition what they were doing before." And to Louis point, you got young people coming in, want to grow something new, something different. They can do it with some older technology. Great. Let's just make sure the government isn't creating barriers for those people, too. The problem though is that uh it's all about money and those that have have scaled this have more money to throw around and when you can lobby with more money and you can advocate that economies of scale is the answer >> and as soon as that doesn't work you lobby for payments and that's the system we're stuck in. We're stuck in this cycle of get bigger to the point to where the elephant's about to suffocate you when things get bad. And when you can't get it off of you, you you scream for the government to help get it off of you. All the while, there's, you know, plenty of people here willing to do this and take a take a bite of this elephant.

[00:24:22]But call it greed, call it whatever you want.

[00:24:26]>> I don't know, Elliot, though, that the farmers I mean, we both sit on a board that has a lot of farmers on it. Uh, I don't know if the farmers are the ones that scream for the payments as much as some of the companies that sell us products go out and lobby for them because we're pretty much pass through >> pass through people on a lot of it. And and you've sat in meetings that I've sat in that you know it's it's a you and I are sitting in the same meetings, Louie, but you go around the country, go to the south, you know, when that elephant's sitting on those guys and they can't take another breath, they're screaming for help. Well, hell, I'd have a cotton base, too, if I would know it was so good. I don't know that it actually has to grow, does it? You just have to it.

[00:25:10]>> There's another policy problem that needs some attention.

[00:25:12]>> Well, and to your exact point, I mean, look, this is why I'm out there talking to people because here's what I say to folks, and this is actually something that cuts through to every single person if they if they care about, you know, what's going on with our farmers. We've been losing farms at the rate of 45,000 a year for the past century. 45,000 a year for 100 years. My little girl's two years old. Louis's got a grandchild even younger than that. By the time my daughter is my age, I'm 42. If we keep losing farms going forward at the rate we have going back, we're going to lose the rest of our farms in this country within the next generation. By the time my 2-year-old daughter is 42. And that seems crazy, but like that's actually the pace that we're on in terms of the number of farms losing people. So, we're not going to lose them all. Well, that's right. But we're going to get to a point where they're all just the very biggest operations and fewest operations. That's just going to continue until something catastrophic happens. And it's not good for anybody if that happens. We saw it during COVID. And you guys know this, but you know it already, but during CO, right? We saw the food prices spike because that supply chain was so vulnerable because we had so few folks actually like one big distribution center going down can impact the supply of something and the price go through the roof. meantime, the farmer can't move his product, right? That's going to get worse and worse and worse and worse.

[00:26:29]And I don't care if you're a small farmer or a big farmer. I don't care if you're one of our machinery dealers or manufacturers. I don't care if you're uh buying or selling to the farmer seed, feed, fertilizer, processing food, whatever it is. If we keep losing our farmers at that same rate, that is a supply base and a customer base for everybody involved in agriculture. So everybody from your smallest operator to your biggest aggra business company has an interest in us figuring out how do we make it so that more farms of different types and sizes can make it on in the future because if we keep wiping out farms the way we have at some point that's their customer base that's everything and we've got a system that's going to collapse and that's the reality.

[00:27:09]>> So in your mind what what's the biggest reason these farms are disappearing?

[00:27:12]Where do we start?

[00:27:15]>> Yeah, it's a good question in terms of where to start. Uh I think that the well we've talked about enough so I don't want to dwell on it but you know when I looked at these the economic crisis the governmental policies and the technological thing the number one thing that we could change soonest because it's always coming out as technology. Um but we got to pair that with getting the government policies out of the way. The government policies are just reinforcing all the wrong incentives that you're abs right about talking about. So I hate to tell you it's two things. I'm sorry. But we got to get our technology right and we gota we gota unscrew up the government.

[00:27:49]>> So let me let me pick that technology piece apart a little bit because you're gonna have people say, "Well, we can't hamstring ourselves. We can't keep doing the the thing we did with with diesel exhaust fluid here and then let our competition run over us because we've decided to hamstring ourselves." What What's your response to that? Where help me understand where you're at with that?

[00:28:10]>> I'm glad you asked that. Look, it takes business leaders who are going to have a little bit of creativity and willing to make some short-term dollars and some long-term dollars and and to be careful about things like look at the end of the day. I mean, you see, Kabota has been producing smaller implements for a while. There's a there's a class of farmer. There's a size of farm that they've been selling to that some of the other equipment manufacturers hadn't been as much for a little while. Now, some of those manufacturers are maybe trying to get in on that. I applaud them doing that. Like we need if you're gonna have if every single one of our business leaders out there in the agriculture space is going to say, "Well, I just need to keep making my money the same way I've been making it and I got to be able to make it right now and I got to be able to make it short term and I got to please my shareholders." I understand those pressures, but we need companies that going to be creative and say, "You know what? There's a market opportunity over here or here's a way I can keep serving my customer base, but I can also diversify it a little bit. I can start serving some of these midsize and small farmers if I do this over there." They have to diversify, too. They have to be creative, too. And I'm not saying they're not, you know, uh, smart enough to do it. I'm saying the economic incentives, to your exact point, push them all in one direction, but a little bit of creativity in trying to figure out a way to serve more types of farms might mean fewer immediate dollars right now. But it also means investing in servicing other types of customers and helping solve this bigger problem because I can tell you they're not going to have a customer base in 40 years if things don't change.

[00:29:29]>> Great.

[00:29:32]>> So, Let's go.

[00:29:34]>> You talked about uh the supply chain there earlier. I mean, why should everybody care? I mean, there's real world implications to a failure in the farming economy.

[00:29:45]>> You are so right. the the biggest comparison I try to make for people, you know, on our farm, we live this uh through all these different economic crises, but uh think about for a moment for people who uh don't necessarily make the connection right away, how uh freaked out everybody was about this whole idea of too big to fail during the Great Recession back in 2008, right?

[00:30:06]What they were telling us is, well, we got to bail out all these banks because if we don't, the cash ain't going to come out of the cash machine. You know, your ATM machine ain't going to work.

[00:30:13]You know, I mean, they were saying that the financial system was going to collapse. Same thing for our food system. The reason we saw the prices go through the roof during COVID, the reason you see prices go through the roof for chicken and eggs during bird flu or for beef during the Mexican screw or whatever, is because we have a really sensitive supply chain. So, we can keep on buying all of our food the way we've been buying it, and a lot of days it'll be cheaper than what you might find at the farmers market. But sometimes that food spikes and becomes way more expensive like like you were saying right during co it's like that that direct market beef was working out a little better because the beef in the store wasn't all that cheaper, you know, if you could even get it. Well, that's a world we're going to live in. We're going to live in a world where we're going to have food scarcity. We're going to live in a world where we're going to have spiking prices all the time and it's going to just continue to get worse and worse until all of a sudden we've got the system collapsing and they're screaming too big to fail like they were with our with our cash machines and the money not coming out of the bank when we needed it. So that's the reason we really need to >> What's your opinion on like the RFS, the renewable fueler fuel standard? Do you talk about that at all?

[00:31:20]>> I don't get into that in depth in the book. I mean in my mind look there are farmers who are now dependent on their price of their crop being at a certain level because of the RFS and I understand there was a goal behind it and I understand that there are farmers who are now growing corn because they need to. What we need to do is we need to transition toward policies are going to work for the long term. So I'm not saying we got to cut that thing because of the you know the arguments that you can make about how it's kind of holding up the market artificially. uh there are farmers who depend on it, but I'm also not saying like those things are the answer. You know, we need to in this country move toward creating new entrepreneurial opportunity for our farmers across the board so that there's new things that our guys can be doing rather than needing to depend upon one specific thing. I would love for there to be a day where that you don't have to have the renewable fuel standard because our farmers could say, "Hey, there's all kinds of different crops and products I can grow and this is more economical for me than it was in the 90s and the 2000s." That would be wonderful. I know that's a lot of change. Um, but meantime, you know, it's hard to it's hard to just go cut the renewable fuel standard and say, uh, we need to get rid of this thing because there's there's people depending on it. There's people growing crops depending on it. You know, they're responding to the market that the government has set up at the end of the day, whether whether people like that market or not.

[00:32:34]>> Well, it's a cleaner fuel.

[00:32:36]>> Yeah.

[00:32:37]>> You know, there's there's so there's arguments for it, you know. So, I just think we need to have more types of opportunity for our farmers and then we can make better choices about what we do and don't want.

[00:32:46]>> Sure. I don't I don't disagree with that, but I didn't want to leave it on that we were only doing it to satisfy >> Oh, no. I agree. I And I don't dispute that. I don't dispute that. I mean, farmers doing that because they're set they're responding to the market that the government has set up. Doesn't mean that that market should or shouldn't be set up. I'm just acknowledging there's a debate about that and that we can we don't have to let that debate bog us down. But to your point, it is creating a a cleaner fuel. And look, there's a lot of uses corn. There's a lot of uses of soybeans that like can fuel a lot of parts of our economy, the food, fuel, fiber that we need. A lot of it can go back to finding I guess I would say I would love to have more innovations in how we can use crops and products because maybe that can drive more market demand naturally in addition to the things that you know maybe the government needs to do for a specific reason.

[00:33:36]Your book hits on a lot of different things and it gets a lot of personal things to your family. Uh do you want to talk about any of that? I mean, we haven't really hit much. We've hit a lot of your book on the outsides, but we haven't hit the actual book part yet.

[00:33:51]>> Sure, I'm happy to. I mean, look, you know, we had um we had a lot of conversations about the kind of stories we wanted to tell. And we talk about everything from weather that blesses and threatens to farm accidents. As I mentioned, we talk about the farmer mental health issue. Um, we talk about addiction. We talk about a lot of things. And when I talk to my dad, um, you know, for instance, writing about my grandpa, his dad, you know, we we talk about how he got through poverty as a kid, climbed into the middle class. He was the gentlest, kindest man, and I'll always be grateful to him. He was a wonderful grandpa, and he carried us into the middle class in the 40s and 50s. But, you know, with what he grew up with, he ended up drinking his whole life to be happy. And we thought we ought to tell that story. We thought we ought to be honest about it. I'm respectful of my grandpa when I do it.

[00:34:33]But my dad and I talked about we said, "Let's be honest." Because if you're going to try to tell all these people who aren't thinking about farms and where their food comes from, making any of the connections that everybody in this conversation makes naturally, you want them to be there for the ups and the downs, an honest story hopefully will draw them in and they'll be more likely to celebrate the successes and be and be honest and serious about the challenges if you tell an honest story.

[00:34:55]So, we did that and we talked about the ups and downs throughout our family over the course of a hundred years. And um you know, there were uh I don't know, I'll just say it. There were there were there were tears on more than one morning. I'm up at 5 in the morning trying to figure out what I want to write and how I want to write it. And um try to tell an honest story. I think it takes a little bit of that. You gota you got to bleed in Christ for something a little bit if you want it to be um honest with people.

[00:35:20]>> Sure.

[00:35:22]>> Elliot, I didn't mean to cut you off there. Oh, you're I'm glad you you uh brought that up. I that's I have I've yet to read the book, so I'm I actually motivated to do it now.

[00:35:33]>> It's it's a good read. It gets there's personal parts in it that that uh uh which is great. Uh and then, you know, kind of brings it full circle and and how it >> I appreciate it.

[00:35:45]>> Comes about. Yeah. No, it's been it's book.

[00:35:48]>> I'm glad you're enjoying it, Louis. You know, one of the stories that I that I like to highlight for people from it that I think farm families relate to because they've all had versions of this over the generations and it really shows people the uh who aren't farm families the resilience of our farmers is uh my dad when he was a kid, you know, he was 8 years old when my grandpa slipped and fell off a corn crib and broke his back.

[00:36:08]And we uh my dad interviewing him and other people re reconstructed that scene what happened. And my grandpa did get back up on his feet and he did keep farming and I'm grateful to say he lived to the ripe old age and uh I I knew him all the way up until I went to college and I say he was a wonderful man. But my dad at the age of eight stepped up and started doing the work of a man and this is true of a lot of farm families. He didn't quit you know I mean my dad's 74 now so what's that I got to do 66 years he's been doing the work of a man since he was 8 years old and he loves it. you know, he's had both knees replaced and if he isn't on the back of a tractor right now, like a lot of guys that you all know, he's running to be on the back of one and he loves that way of life.

[00:36:47]But that's also a hardship for a kid at the age to start doing the the the work.

[00:36:51]>> I just had a little boy turn eight yesterday and I just I can't imagine it.

[00:36:55]Just it seems unbelievable.

[00:36:57]>> And and this is something that our farm families, you know, we're not unique.

[00:37:00]You know, farm families lived different versions of this all throughout the generations. And I know both of you guys probably had times you had to step up on the farm and think about the challenges that you faced. So our farm families all across the country, I always tell people they're all living uh stories like that or have lived at at one point in their history. And so uh these are resilient folks. You know, we still got nearly 2 million farms left. 96% of them are family farms. And I always tell people, look at how they've been holding on even though we don't make it work in this country. Imagine what they could do if we made it work again. Well, all these family farms, they live in these rural settings. And the impact that the change that we've experienced in the last hundred years, I mean, I see it every day. I see my local community to me, it's withering on the vine.

[00:37:47]>> Yeah.

[00:37:47]>> Your book, from what I researched about your book, it it goes into that, too.

[00:37:52]Can you talk about that some?

[00:37:53]>> It absolutely does. You're you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, so many of your listeners and people who have grown up farms know this, but when you lose your economic core like that, you're losing the farms. Like the town I'm from, uh, uh, the nearest town I'm from, the farm, but the nearest town to us is Plane, Wisconsin. And that farm was built by the farmers, right? It was the economic activity from the farms that supported the businesses that, you know, built the churches that, you know, all that. And so when you lose the farms, it ripples all throughout Main Street. And you know, the the town that I grew up in, um, we've got a we got a dairy supply store that is now a hardware store and a grocery store because they're trying to have a local option after we've lost the local grocery store, after we lost the downtown hardware store, you know, and so you you lose those farms, you lose that activity, and you lose economic activity that affects all these other businesses. They lose customers, you start to lose people, uh, and it just kind of gets worse and worse. Then we add to that that a lot of our rural communities maybe they had manufacturing at one time. Now maybe a lot of those jobs have gone overseas or been lost to automation or whatever. So it really is a a big challenge and a big problem. And one of the things that I think a lot about and I'm starting to write more and more about is what do we do about those broader communities? We we need to figure out solutions for our farms, but what do we do to those broader communities? And it ends up being communities that don't have economic activity of their own. It's a lot of older folks who don't want to leave because they love where they're from, but there isn't much new going on. The county that I grew up in, Sock County, Wisconsin, lost uh its age group 20 to 25 decades in a row. And I bet you you guys know towns and counties just like that, too, where the young people are gone.

[00:39:29]There aren't new people starting new families and men in the fire department are starting new businesses. So, it's a real it's a real tragedy. It affects the communities all around the farm, not just the farmer. Well, it's it's getting a lot of political attention in this gubanatorial race here in Iowa. If I mean, you're not that far away. You might be aware of that. I mean, this is some of, you know, both Republican and Democrat candidates are stumping on this on this issue. So, it's here and now.

[00:39:55]It's it's in the it's in the public domain now. People are are very conscious of this.

[00:40:04]>> Absolutely. And we can trust politicians to screw it up. But the other thing we can trust is if people are really focused on it and both parties are hearing people who are worked up about this issue and they want solutions, uh maybe we can find some, you know, because you're right. I mean, communities dying is is a is such a huge problem. It has an consequence for everybody, too. You know, I mean, it it's so sad to see. And I'm but I'm glad to hear that people are making a big enough fuss about it to maybe you know force people on both sides of the aisle who are in office to try to do something about it.

[00:40:37]>> Something I didn't hear you talk about just now when we're talking about these rural communities is to me there's this effort of extraction of whatever little bit of wealth is left here whether it's a Dollar General or Walmart.

[00:40:49]>> Absolutely. You know it's funny you mentioned that because that's the other side of the coin of what I was saying with that dairy supply store that's a hardware store and grocery store all at once. there's a Dollar General nearby and our our community had that debate, you know, and here's the here's the reality. If we have the only types of businesses that are serving our rural communities are the ones that are based elsewhere and they come in to provide the cheapest service they can and then the money that they make goes off to a corporate headquarters somewhere else.

[00:41:16]That's not a basis for for success in our communities. We need to have new small businesses growing or existing small businesses able to have a customer base. And like at the end of the day, it's kind of like what we were talking about with people knowing where the food comes from and trying to buy their food in a way that supports our farmers. I'll tell you what, a good dose of localism goes a long way.

[00:41:40]>> That reconnection of rural and urban America right now. It seems like, you know, that stream is only flowing one way. It's taking whatever wealth or even government subsidy money that's coming into these rural communities, whether it be through farm programs or EBT type programs for food assistance, that that money is leaving these communities and that that stream's only flowing one way.

[00:42:04]In your eyes, what is the solution to that? How do we get that rural urban reconnection? H, you know, >> it's a hearts and mind issue. I mean, we need to change the hearts and minds of people across this country to understand that, hey, the more we decimate our rural communities, the worse your food prices, the all these things that are going to that have been bad are going to continue to get worse. We need to help people understand in this country that urban America needs rural America and we need to have strong communities and we've got to have look like there's no reason especially postco there's a lot of people who don't have to live in urban areas full or at least don't have to do it full-time who could move out to a rural area or who could you know even if they do live in an urban area and they don't have a choice in that they can go outside of town and they can go spend their money at a local business in a small town nearby. There are communities that have figured out a way to have a strong Baroque, Wisconsin is an example.

[00:43:00]They got a really strong strain of localism where the people there care about their small business there. They sell there, they buy there. And also a lot of people in the area know that about them. So they go down to Veroka to get something special or to make sure they come down to the community festival. They're the the at the end of the day where people spend their money, you're voting, you're voting for things at the end of the day, right? just like you would for someone who's in office.

[00:43:24]And if more people were focused on localism, I'm not saying it's going to fix every community. I'm not saying it's going to deal with every structural issue. But the communities that have figured out a way to get their local people, support their local businesses, and to draw people in to their community, they're having success. And so, it looks different everywhere. But at the end of the day, the more hearts and minds we change, people understand that supporting your local small business is going to make a difference.

[00:43:46]Um, that can take a whack at it at least. I can't say I have magic bullets, but maybe I got a couple hammers we can bang on it with. You know, >> I I wouldn't disagree with any of that.

[00:43:55]I would just take it one step further.

[00:43:57]You're trying to localize America first.

[00:44:00]>> Yeah.

[00:44:01]>> And local first.

[00:44:03]>> And I'm all for that. But people have to realize that if you're going to do that, >> it is going to cost you more.

[00:44:09]>> Yep. Yeah. People have want to pay a little more here and there and all kinds of things. It's it's it that's an element of it. It's an element of it.

[00:44:16]And and one of the reasons that I say to people that actually maybe we're at a place where people are going to start doing it is because of what happens with uh the food prices nationally or any other product, you know what I mean? At the end of the day, having our economy served only by great a couple of great big companies, it it ends up having it's kind of diminishing returns. You know, they can they can deliver lower prices for a while, but eventually the system gets vulnerable or you just aren't getting served. I mean the other thing is like well I'll tell you what if we can go to a local you know local business that knows who we are and cares about us. I give you a good example.

[00:44:49]Couple weeks ago, I'm not going to get into particulars because it's other people's business, but I had a loved one of mine who was sick and we needed to get uh their medicine and we were telling we were dealing with the big corporate pharmacy who was dealing with the great big corporate health system and my god, if we could get the the pharmacists that were required to talk to each other to talk, I I mean, it was a it was a herculean task. It wasn't happening. I was on hold longer than it took for us to deal with the local drugstore. I talked to my mom and she said, you know, let's call down to let's call down to our our local pharmacist.

[00:45:21]Talk to him in 5 minutes. He said, let me contact that I'm going to just that corporate pharmacy. Let me contact them.

[00:45:26]See if they'll transfer it over to me.

[00:45:28]Say that say that we're going to handle the order. He had that thing. 10 minutes later, he called us. We drove down and we got it. We had dealt with these corporate presences for a day trying to figure this out. So, it's being willing to put up a little bit more cost sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes. And it's also valuing things like do they value you and the service that you're getting and the quality that you're getting. And it's not always going to be a slam dunk. It is easy for these great big companies to offer something cheaper and sometimes easier, but the more people are deliberate about it and the more people value more things like that to your point Louie the better off we're going to be.

[00:46:04]>> I think that's great.

[00:46:04]>> I couldn't agree more. Uh Elliot, if you don't have any other question kind of exhausted our time. Yeah, let's just quickly touch on the next generation.

[00:46:15]You know, let's take a couple minutes if we can. This is at the forefront. We talked about them leaving the state.

[00:46:21]We've talked about the challenges that exist now for coming in.

[00:46:26]What What do you want? What's the me what's your message to that listener that's thinking, how do I do this? What how do I come back to the farm? How do I get into this? How do I come back to rural America?

[00:46:38]>> Absolutely. You know, we've got and I I myself split my time, right? My dad is milking or my dad's still farming. We sold the milker. My dad's still farming.

[00:46:45]My sister's work take it over. I split my time. My wife's family is out west and I my work is mobile. My writing and other work is mobile. So, I go back and forth. I spend part of my time on the farm and I spend part of my time out in California. My wife's family. And so we we live this world of like how do you try to be involved and how do you try to be mobile and and a couple things one is you know there are there are more types of farming that folks can try if they want to if they want to do it on a small scale. You do find folks on smallcale farming being able to make it at farmers markets and other types of things.

[00:47:17]There's more things like that. There's more mobility for people who have a job that's tied to the urban economy be able to come back and forth or to live in a rural area. I would just say think about a community that you would like to have and that you would like to be part of and figure out how to do that. Maybe it's moving back there. Maybe it's starting a a small 50 acre farm on a on a crop or product you know you can sell at a local market. Uh maybe it's figuring out a way to start a new small business. Whatever it is, or maybe it's just if you can't do those things, figuring out how to spend your money with local farmers and local small businesses. just thinking about that community that you care about and figuring out a way to either be part of it or to support it whenever you're able. Um those are the kinds of things that can make a difference and that's the kind of thing that it's hard because it's kind of like we all got to jump in the water together but is the good news is if we do it you have the ability to make a difference.

[00:48:12]>> I agree. And with that uh Brian I want to give a pitch one more time. It's landri cash poor. I think most every farmer relates to that title and I want to thank you for coming on the show and uh >> where can people find your book, Brian?

[00:48:29]>> Well, thank you guys for having me. Um, folks can find the book in bookstores nationwide. You can also find it on Amazon, anywhere else you buy books online. And I just appreciate anybody who's spreading the word on these topics and issues and trying to engage in the conversation. So, I appreciate you guys having me on and shedding light on all this stuff and the way you guys live it.

[00:48:46]And uh I hope I hope your audience does everything they can to carry it forward.

[00:48:50]>> Thank you, Brian.

[00:48:51]>> You do too. Thanks for coming on the show. And to our listeners, hope you're Sean back for another episode. Thanks for watching.