Museveni Tells Judges: I Am Now the Oldest Here. Tasks Chief Justice to be hard on Corruption.

[00:00:00]I also salute the aggressive spirit of the Chief Justice >> [applause] >> in fighting corruption and uh things which are which are out of date.

[00:00:22]Anachronism, I think we call it anachronism.

[00:00:25]Anachronistic uh practices like paper files and so on.

[00:00:34]Now now the the problem we had when we were fighting was There were There were two.

[00:00:48]Yes, there were European European uh uh judges and even magistrates. Even magistrates were were Europeans.

[00:01:02]But at the lower level initially you had chiefs actually. We didn't even have African magistrates.

[00:01:10]We had the Saza chiefs and Gombolola chiefs.

[00:01:14]Administrators who were doing also the judicial role.

[00:01:21]I remember it was 1958 when they selected some few Gombolola chiefs.

[00:01:29]And we heard that they are taking them to become abaramuzi.

[00:01:35]Abaramuzi the local word for a separator.

[00:01:42]Muramuzi to okuramura to separate people who are fighting.

[00:01:47]Like the bulls. If the bulls are fighting you come and you separate them.

[00:01:53]That is okuramura.

[00:01:56]So in 19 So muramuzi is the separator of people who are fighting in 1958, I heard that some chiefs which we whom we knew because before that especially for civil cases the administrators would constitute a court at the sub-county.

[00:02:18]Yes, the administrators the Gombolola chiefs or or or the Saza chiefs, they would come and judge a case.

[00:02:28]I think it was only the the murder cases which were taken not at the sub-county but to Mbarara.

[00:02:36]Like in our case, you would go to Mbarara and Kampala.

[00:02:42]There was a police police vehicle called tender.

[00:02:46]A black vehicle a black van which would come to our area when somebody has been killed.

[00:02:57]It would be the one to come and take the body.

[00:03:01]I think that case would go straight to either Mbarara or or Kampala. They They were never handled locally there. Murder.

[00:03:12]The whites were very strict with murder.

[00:03:21]But still when the Africans came in after independence, suddenly hearing of corruption even at higher levels.

[00:03:38]That's how you could get you could get a people making decisions which are not fair.

[00:03:50]So, that was the problem when we were fighting corruption.

[00:03:57]But, also there was the problem of this because our African justice system that the tribal justice system is fully full accountability in the tribes.

[00:04:15]You must have full accountability.

[00:04:18]There's no way of If you do a wrong if it is murder the the dead person must either be revenged or kora.

[00:04:33]You know You must all kora that the the person who died by killing somebody from the clan of the one who who killed.

[00:04:48]So, it was full accountability. There's no way you could how how any So, it was either kora revenge or So, it was a retributive to use your words.

[00:05:05]It was It was both retributive justice but also restorative justice. It was both.

[00:05:13]Our traditional system was both was both.

[00:05:18]If you did not want get revenge your clan approaches the other clan.

[00:05:28]You say, "Please one of our people made a mistake.

[00:05:34]He killed somebody from your clan.

[00:05:37]Please, don't revenge us.

[00:05:40]Let's settle."

[00:05:45]In the north, they call it matoputo.

[00:05:49]But among the Banyankole they call it okuraba.

[00:05:54]Okuraba is blood settlement.

[00:05:58]That is for for blood. For blood you must okuraba.

[00:06:02]And if they approach you you can't refuse.

[00:06:05]So you sit down and you negotiate.

[00:06:09]And you pay heavy heavy fine of cows, big fine.

[00:06:13]And you perform some ceremonies traditional some our traditional doctors come and and the blood is finished.

[00:06:22]So our traditional system was full accountability with both retribution or restorative.

[00:06:36]Now that is for murder. Now for other other wrongs that like what's happening you to use bad words on somebody.

[00:06:47]Okunjuma.

[00:06:49]He insulted me.

[00:06:52]He insulted my mother. Oh oh oh oh oh.

[00:07:00]And even if it is true even if what you are saying is true.

[00:07:03]Suppose somebody's mother is a is a prostitute.

[00:07:10]And you say your mother was a prostitute. It may be a fact.

[00:07:16]But the other man will bring a case against you.

[00:07:20]Akancura skoroksura.

[00:07:23]Oksura is to mock somebody with the facts which may be true. But why are you bringing them up?

[00:07:31]What value what value are you bringing them up?

[00:07:35]Sick case.

[00:07:37]Akancura.

[00:07:39]He said my mother was like this.

[00:07:43]You might you going to what what what what what the value was that to you?

[00:07:49]You must or conga now. This is not Karaba.

[00:07:54]Is or conga. Or conga is you pay fine for a wrong shot of murder.

[00:08:02]Insult.

[00:08:06]Akanshenda like people would do travel on foot.

[00:08:11]And when it is night you sleep where you the night has fallen. You go to a home you sleep there.

[00:08:20]If you they send you away, that's a big a big offense.

[00:08:28]Okay you run.

[00:08:30]Night overtook me.

[00:08:32]And I came to this man's courtyard. He chased me. He wanted lions to lions to eat me.

[00:08:38]Oh.

[00:08:43]If he has gone to get a wife, you come and you say don't give this man a wife.

[00:08:48]Because Akanshenda he kicked me out in the darkness.

[00:08:56]And the family will not Uh-uh. We cannot give you a wife.

[00:09:01]Unless you settle with the other man.

[00:09:04]The one you It was really fully justice.

[00:09:09]Retributive. If If you If no no cooperation.

[00:09:15]And restorative.

[00:09:18]It was both.

[00:09:19]So, when we came here and we found your system here, I had seen it in the university because I had studied law for 1 year.

[00:09:29]Because at the University of Dar es Salaam you could do law as a subject.

[00:09:33]Not as a profession.

[00:09:35]Just study it as a subject. One of the three subjects.

[00:09:38]One of the three initially then you drop one you remain with two.

[00:09:44]That's what they are system there.

[00:09:47]So I had seen that system there. This one here there is a problem. There was a case of Amukeyu. Amukeyu against Regina.

[00:10:02]Regina is the king of England. So they were calling him Regina.

[00:10:09]Amukeyu versus Regina.

[00:10:11]Regina versus Amukeyu.

[00:10:15]You could see I could see there was there was really there a lot of confusion because Amukeyu stole a cow and and and slaughtered it and ate it.

[00:10:34]And buried the skin in on the floor of their heart of of his heart and his wife.

[00:10:43]Now his wife exposed him. He went and reported that my husband has stolen a cow.

[00:10:52]And then they came and dug they found the skin there.

[00:10:55]So I don't know who had told Amukeyu about the Indian Evidence Act of 1871 which said that your wife cannot give evidence against you.

[00:11:12]So Amukeyu brought it up said my wife was an incompetent witness. You use use your language.

[00:11:22]incompetent witness She could not have given evidence. She must be accepted because she's my wife.

[00:11:30]Then the British judge said "No, wait a minute.

[00:11:34]Africans don't really marry in the sense of the Indian Act of 1871.

[00:11:48]The Indian you know woman purchase.

[00:11:51]So, it's not marriage. So, so you you could see a lot of really lack of serious. First of all, why would you stop my wife giving evidence? Because he he No, they were saying that because when you get married you become one. That's nonsense.

[00:12:07]We are married, yes, but we are two people.

[00:12:10]So, what were the assumption? You can see a lot of childish things really instead of substance.

[00:12:21]So, these are the two problems that we we we saw when we came from the bush.

[00:12:26]First of all is the corruption which was but also there lack of substance.

[00:12:32]Spending more time on procedures and some of the assumptions really not not sound like that one. Why why why do you have to say that because I am married to one, we are one person. It's It's not true.

[00:12:50]I don't know why they had said that. Was it to protect the social protection so that you don't have an entity or why?

[00:13:03]Maybe they could have said halfway they could have said, "You can't compel the wife to give evidence, but if she wants to do it on her own, why do you stop her?"

[00:13:14]I I We could we could not.

[00:13:17]Uh-huh.

[00:13:18]Now, recently I saw you people saying something. I don't know who said it.

[00:13:27]Which goes in idea of substantive justice versus real like superficial.

[00:13:40]And I think the issue was torture.

[00:13:43]I don't know who decided I think you you you some of one of some of you people decided that say that somebody was saying that because of torture the the the actual would be automatically acquitted or something like that.

[00:14:03]And I think you I saw you some of you saying no. I don't know how you said it but you said you rejected it.

[00:14:11]Which of course is substantially correct. Yes, the torture was a mistake.

[00:14:17]But how can you say this is a mistake which should be handled separately. The ones who torture should be arrested and handled.

[00:14:26]But now would eclipse the original mistake. How can you What's the logic there?

[00:14:36]Is Is it not an injustice using the Why don't you handle both?

[00:14:43]Why don't you say you you torture us, you are charged but answer the original problem.

[00:14:55]If you say that the evidence from torture sometimes is not true which is true which is true correct.

[00:15:04]If because that can be true that the evidence from torture may not be correct. It may be just admission in order to avoid the to not to be tortured.

[00:15:17]I think that one is different rather than saying that by the mere fact of torture, therefore So, I'm glad that you people you you are now moving on both both the corruption the and then the the substance.

[00:15:39]Including this alternative justice.

[00:15:41]Because that alternative justice is a little bit like our other system traditional system of >> [snorts] >> uh restorative justice.

[00:15:53]So, I'm very happy.

[00:15:55]And I'm told that uh the the that Justice Kaome is from the rural triangle.

[00:16:03]So, you must have seen the you must have been a young man when there was fighting there.

[00:16:10]And you would have seen the terrible things which happened there.

[00:16:14]Uh that's when I was reading their files I I saw he was from that area.

[00:16:20]And uh so gradually you young people are coming up.

[00:16:25]Now, there is Of course, this is what we all know.

[00:16:30]Your registrar is called Alum.

[00:16:33]That means she was born in the bush.

[00:16:36]Is that not so?

[00:16:39]Born away from home.

[00:16:42]Uh Alum.

[00:16:44]But these people don't know our language because me I know I am the head of the tribes. So So, you can see all these all these people coming up from Alum, the bush.

[00:16:57]So, [snorts] I'm very happy to see you the young because when I had come from government all the justices were older than me.

[00:17:07]You can imagine these old people Wambuzi There was this young boy dealing with these elderly people. Now it is the reverse.

[00:17:20]I'm an ancient man dealing with the grandchildren.

[00:17:26]So, I'm very happy and I welcome you. I thank all of you.

[00:17:30]Thank you so much.

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