Bon Victoriage! S2 Ep 04 - "Love is in the Hair"

Added: 2026-05-13

[00:01:12]feel good.

[00:01:13]>> Oh, yes.

[00:01:13]>> It's the best part.

[00:01:15]>> Talk to me, sir. You want to do with the do?

[00:01:17]>> Uh, well, just a shorter version of the We always have this and I've never gotten any better at it. Um, what was the rest of your summer like?

[00:01:25]>> I was uh at the Vicious Poodle.

[00:01:27]>> Yeah.

[00:01:27]>> Few days ago and I debuted as a drag king.

[00:01:31]>> And how was it?

[00:01:31]>> I was a little terrified that it would be a a complete disaster. So, I didn't I didn't really invite that many people.

[00:01:37]>> Yeah. Oh, no.

[00:01:39]>> I just wanted to just in case I would have been totally humiliated.

[00:01:42]>> Did you have at least a few loved ones in the audience?

[00:01:44]>> I did. Some of them are even filming us right now.

[00:01:47]>> Oh my goodness.

[00:01:48]>> Yeah.

[00:01:48]>> Guys, you turn the cameras on yourselves for a second.

[00:01:50]>> Yeah.

[00:01:57]Way too close.

[00:01:59]>> Wait, we're being filmed.

[00:02:04]>> Are you allowed to say on television what your drag name was?

[00:02:07]>> Daddy. Dada.

[00:02:08]>> Oh my god, I love it. I told myself that I would do drag uh at some point in my life. And uh I was actually going to try and do it before my 40th birthday, but then the co pandemic.

[00:02:20]>> Yeah. and wasn't able to do it. So, that dream is still there.

[00:02:25]>> Speaking of dreams, >> we got these two people filming us right now. Um, >> getting my haircut over the years. I I do find like it's a very interesting and particular context for conversation and for like vulnerability.

[00:02:39]>> Yeah.

[00:02:40]>> Sharing.

[00:02:40]>> Yeah.

[00:02:41]>> Um, it happens a lot in the barber shop.

[00:02:43]>> Yeah. Yeah. And it's also I feel like it's one of the only industries you can't tell me an industry that's out there where people are still connecting and touching each other. Um and it's not on a medical reason side, you know, cuz I mean you can still go get a massage, you know, like and like maybe that massage would be like for lower back. Do you know what I mean? Like I'm talking about myself. So do you know what I mean? Where it's just like it's interesting. But this is just like you get to just chill out. For me, it might have been a kind of safe space without me necessarily having analyzed it like that. It was just like a place where >> Yeah, it it was a way to explore identity while getting one's haircut.

[00:03:23]>> Oh my god. 100%.

[00:03:24]>> I always chose the queer hair dressing salon I could I like since I was a teenager.

[00:03:31]>> Then you walked by that window and you saw me and you're like, >> "Yeah, >> oh, there it is. I'm kidding.

[00:03:38]Some people, you know, their whole attitude and their whole like what they wear, you know, shifts from a haircut.

[00:03:44]>> Yeah.

[00:03:45]>> You know, just like how people's attitudes and vibe shifts with a new tattoo. During the pandemic, I I started to experiment with, >> you know, mustaches and mullets and stuff as as a joke. And later on, I came to to consider it >> and now it's you.

[00:04:00]>> Yeah. And but I also considered it a form of drag which led me down that that >> totally tunnel. Totally. Because it almost like by by playing it off as a joke, do you? I mean, I think it makes it okay because you're going to be able to laugh at yourself if somebody else laughs at you. Yeah.

[00:04:15]>> But sometimes we can also sit there too and kind of use that as like the dry run >> of like, you know, like I wonder if this is going to suit >> me. Like my partners are like that has always been like a bearded dude.

[00:04:26]>> Yeah.

[00:04:26]>> And then for fun he just did a mustache.

[00:04:30]>> Oh yeah.

[00:04:30]>> And now he's been rock now Bryce has been rocking a mustache for like months, >> you know? So, it's kind of like I'm kind of into it. He's like my 70s gym teacher.

[00:04:40]I hate putting gender on hair, but like, you know, like statistically and stuff like that, you know, men see a barber more than they see a therapist or a counselor because there's still like that whole like um macho dude bro dude.

[00:04:55]If I go if if I'm a man and I go to a therapist and stuff like that, you know, like then I failed, you know, being a man. And it's just like, no, man. Like, that's actually not what it is, you know? Like, so it's an interesting thing where it's just is like I can gauge how my guys are doing based off of how the frequency they're here, you know? I do care.

[00:05:16]>> Of course.

[00:05:18]>> How's that feel? Do you want to put some product in it?

[00:05:20]>> Yeah, let's do some product.

[00:05:22]>> You know what? Huh?

[00:05:23]>> My product order didn't show up.

[00:05:25]>> What? So, yeah, I actually don't have anything, >> Doug.

[00:05:30]Well, you know, the lucky thing is I happen to not just have a film crew here, but by coincidence, I also brought my pettic cab. Stop. I know.

[00:05:39]>> I've never been on a pettic cab.

[00:05:40]>> Whoa.

[00:05:41]>> First time for everything. Okay, let's go get some product.

[00:05:44]>> Guys, they're such good actors.

[00:05:45]>> Even without the product, I feel like going around on a pett with like such a beautiful, freshly manicured uh >> I mean, when you think about it, organic is really nice.

[00:05:55]>> Product is important. product is >> uh but I mean generally when I wake up in the morning you know I will wake up without product >> and uh I want to be beautiful when I wake up >> honey you're already beautiful >> I think you know we have to keep remembering like that words are magic that's why they call it spelling >> right so when you wake up in the morning and you say things about yourself in a negative context you're casting that magic I mean >> always speak positive about yourself we can always be our own worst enemies do I mean right >> you wake up every morning gorgeous and you know what you wake up every morning.

[00:06:27]This is really nice. I've never been on one of these before. You do this for a living and then it turned into this project that we're now a part of.

[00:06:36]>> Well, it just reminded me of everything I always loved about uh the storytelling work I did in the past.

[00:06:41]>> Yeah.

[00:06:41]>> And also uh because it's not like a dry studio environment. Yeah. Like it's actually I find it so much better. Yeah.

[00:06:48]Than when I would interview somebody just in a studio about whatever because people could have their guard on and they they're just in an environment where everything is the same. Yes.

[00:06:56]>> And so that like they can go into autopilot. Here you cannot be an autopilot cuz you know you'll get rear ended.

[00:07:02]>> Yeah.

[00:07:03]>> It's so true though.

[00:07:04]>> So in a in a weird way it's like the opposite of a barber shop.

[00:07:07]>> Very true.

[00:07:08]>> Because it's not silent. I always feel hair is like my canvas that allows me to just kind of calm down, relax, and just kind of concentrate on what's in front of me. And I enjoy it. I enjoy the figuring it out. You know, I'm always on, don't get me wrong. Do you mean like I think you have to be in this industry, but I think with the people who I surround myself with, my clients, you know, they see me go through heartbreak, they see me go through loss of pets, go through loss of family members. So, it's a shared experience. Yeah. Right. It's not just like >> it's not a one way.

[00:07:39]>> No, definitely not.

[00:07:40]>> 100%.

[00:07:41]>> You you you said like that this is uh non-medical uh but when when I think of like the the barbering in the old days like people were surgeons as well.

[00:07:52]>> Yeah% like barbers you know like they would definitely do like bloodletting.

[00:07:56]Do you have any FOMO about that?

[00:07:57]>> Not really. I mean I do love stuff like that. Like I'm really into pimples.

[00:08:02]Okay.

[00:08:02]>> So you know Dr. Pimple Popper Holler get at me. Uh but like honestly like I think it also just goes to show like trying and doing different things just is still relevant in our industry. Yeah.

[00:08:13]>> Uh I think one of the biggest changes for me is like in the 80s barbering just kind of disappeared. Again I'm going to put gender on hair here because this is how it was in the 80s.

[00:08:22]>> Um guys were wanting women's hair. They wanted the big perms. They wanted the length the big band hair like poison and rat and monkey crew. And it was interesting. Do you mean like it just ended up barbers just refused to do those things. They never learned how to do that. They're always taught, you know, short on the back sides, longer on the top, right?

[00:08:40]>> Yeah.

[00:08:40]>> So, yeah, it kind of disappeared and then everyone started going to salons.

[00:08:44]And so, yeah, now we have shows that kind of brought us back out of hibernation. Uh, shows like Mad Men, a pretty dominant uh show and stuff.

[00:08:52]Everyone wanted to look like Don Draper.

[00:08:53]>> That is so funny also because I feel like that show was meant as a criticism of that stuff.

[00:08:58]>> Well, that's it. Do you know what I mean? Like >> that's then it ended up inspiring it.

[00:09:02]>> Yeah. But like at the same time, it's like that interesting moment where they're just like, "Oh," you know, like it's almost like guys wanted to kind of, you know, reach into the past and like live that time period. Straight razor shaves were very popular again. You know, the slick back haircuts with the pomade in it, very popular again, you know. But now what's really interesting is we're starting to see that kind of happen again where you have all these barbers out there that are learning how to do skin fades and wanting longer hair, lengthier pieces, you know, like your your mullet's a prime example of that, right?

[00:09:32]>> Yeah. When I came to Victoria Yeah. post pandemic, I came into a world where mullets were a lot more popular than when I had last been here.

[00:09:41]>> I was like, whoa. And now they're actually becoming popular again. And and I realized that it's not as extreme as I thought as I thought it might be.

[00:09:49]>> Yeah. Well, I mean, think of it too is like, you know, like with tattoos, you know, it was very interesting where you didn't really know that many people with tattoos and all a sudden tattoos just kind of took off and then now it's, you know, now it's more rare to find someone who doesn't have a tattoo.

[00:10:02]>> Yeah. Yeah. So, that's what's really kind of cool about barbing. And now we're kind of seeing an elevation of that and an evolution, I should say, of barbing. Whereas it's like now a lot of people are wanting length on the sides, length on the back, full scissor cuts and so on. Like you look at Leonardo DiCaprio's hair and Romeo and Juliet, you know, like we're seeing a lot of that. So I don't know really what I would call Bishop's Barber shop. I know it's a barber shop, but at the same time, I'm doing so many different >> types of hair. Well, it's a 21st century barber shop.

[00:10:30]>> Yes, exactly.

[00:10:31]>> I love that. Part of what is accomplished by just like the rise of all these haird dressers with all these different types of ideas of what it can be to be a male.

[00:10:40]>> Yeah.

[00:10:40]>> What it enabled also was for some of these traditional things because they weren't the only thing you could do >> in that way because they became an option. It made them cooler.

[00:10:50]>> Yeah.

[00:10:51]>> Anything where like it's about physical appearance and style like give it one decade and everything's different.

[00:10:56]>> Yeah.

[00:10:56]>> And it'll come back. Yes.

[00:10:58]>> But you know you can't have a whole career on that on that basis.

[00:11:01]>> It's so true. It's usually a 10-year window. Do you mean like with the internet and stuff like that? I don't know if you remember going into shops and you'd see those look books on the table. I do. Yeah. So, those books are compiled by a board of hair stylists and people who submit their entries and those become the styles of the year. So, it's interesting now that we have things like social media, those trends are changing so much more quicker that those books kind of become irrelevant.

[00:11:28]>> The attention economy is moving so much faster than that can keep up with.

[00:11:31]Totally. One of the main reasons why I kind of put my focus towards barbering more than the hair styling is I became a jack of all trades and a master of none.

[00:11:40]>> Sounds like being a journalist.

[00:11:41]>> Yes. Right. But it was really interesting. It was just like trying to stay relevant in an industry that I wasn't really super stoked on.

[00:11:50]>> Well, because that's also not necessarily at the heart and soul of why you do it.

[00:11:54]>> It's not. No. And that I never thought about that, love. That's so true. It's not. And I think that's where I kind of fell out with my love of hairdressing and then turned my focus towards more of the barbering. And I think for me that's where it gets a little bit more creative and fun. You know, I always used to go to hairdressers, but uh uh I never really thought about the fact that I have gotten to a point in my life where I have started again going to a barber shop. When I think of the last time I was going to proper barber shops, uh like that would have probably been back in high school. And that was just cuz I didn't have any idea who I was. And so then I I think barber shops are sort sort of something that I um I rejected.

[00:12:31]>> Yes. Haircuts are such a small portion of what I do. So when you came in, do you know what I mean? I was like, "This person's kind of rad." And then in my brain, you know, I was just like, I really hope he ends up coming back.

[00:12:41]>> Yeah.

[00:12:42]>> You know, and then here I am >> and here we are >> x amount of years later and we're still cutting your hair and we're filming this.

[00:12:48]>> But hey, is there um is there a a haircut you used to do a lot of but you don't do anymore? I will never be that person that will not do what somebody asks me to.

[00:12:58]>> Oh, no. I know. But I mean, just in the sense of um it used to it used to come up a lot and now it doesn't.

[00:13:04]>> Oo, good question. I think um long layers I think that one isn't really something that kind of pops up anymore.

[00:13:11]>> I wonder why.

[00:13:12]>> I don't know. I think again, you know, I mean, like just maybe we haven't had any amazing like hair bands in the last little while. Looks like we have a concept for my next haircut. Could you imagine? But first, we have to get a perm.

[00:13:24]>> Don't you need a permit for that?

[00:13:27]>> No, that needs to be on a t-shirt, actually. Trademark copyright.

[00:13:32]>> How about you? Here's a question. I'm going to fire one at you.

[00:13:34]>> Okay. How did you feel um coming to a salon/barber shop, being comfortable with who you are now? How was that experience for you?

[00:13:43]>> Oh, that's interesting.

[00:13:45]>> So, here's the thing. I mean, I I've known for a few years, right? It just wasn't something that I was uh I I kind of felt like I was starting to be more and more transparent about it. But I also think that like if you're not looking for it, you don't necessarily see it. Yeah. I mean, this is kind of a boring answer, but like I actually just >> automatically assumed you knew I was queer, which I realized later that actually you didn't I had neglected to share that, but it but I just for me I felt like it was so >> written all over my face.

[00:14:14]>> Yeah.

[00:14:15]>> I mean, it does feel nice to be absolutely talking about it. And I do feel like, not that people were excluding me, uh I mean I I felt I was excluding myself.

[00:14:24]>> Did you feel like you didn't know where you fit in? Like where barber shops are just like in this very hyper masculine dude bro dude type climate and environment.

[00:14:32]>> I mean not yours but you know what I mean. And those are the types of things that I want to break down. A lot of people do feel uncomfortable going into these spaces that are very hyper masculine. And I remember I going to a barber shop in Morocco that was very much one of these super macho places and I kind of I was I I was there with uh another non-binary friend and and we were just sort of we had to just sort of laugh at the whole experience >> cuz it was just so you know there was so much forced on you and you're like a customer there but it's just like well this is how we do the thing and it's it's almost like looking at you like you're an alien from outer space if you're doing it differently.

[00:15:11]>> Yeah. But it's an interesting thing. Do you know what I mean? Like sometimes it's exhausting to put those masks on and you just kind of want to like simply be and live who you are and what you are and what have you. And it's just like it's okay to hang that mask up once in a while.

[00:15:23]>> Speaking of masks, uh you and I uh often do have to wear a sort of performance mask in our jobs. You still have to kind of bring it.

[00:15:31]>> No, >> no, >> no. It's okay for me to have bad days.

[00:15:35]That's where the connectivity happens even deeper.

[00:15:37]>> Totally. because you have these people also not necessarily just, you know, there for a haircut, but their your well-being is also important to them, you know, so they take that time to also check in on you, >> you know, and I'm honest and I'm open.

[00:15:50]I'm just very transparent with where I'm at and how I'm doing. I wonder if if that uh is part of why maybe I find my job uh sometimes so emotionally exhausting is because while you do find like human connection with people, >> Yeah.

[00:16:05]>> sometimes you don't. Yes. and you're stuck with these people for >> three hours and and like if you if you are going through something emotionally you you really don't necessarily feel the freedom to express that. So of course I know what you mean where it's like yes I need to be on I've worked at spaces where I've had to be 100%. You know like for my mental health that's just not great. So it's quite lovely to have my people take care of me as I hope I do for them.

[00:16:33]There's a thing we say on the on the radio that when things uh go wrong, it's an opportunity.

[00:16:39]>> Yeah. You're you're like, "Hey, look, I'm human."

[00:16:41]>> Yeah. Exactly.

[00:16:43]>> So, we are somewhere here now.

[00:16:45]>> I brought you to an amazing salon to get product for your hair today. And here we are.

[00:16:54]>> You look like product.

[00:16:57]>> Giant. This is my friend Bray who owns this amazing salon. Role play.

[00:17:00]>> Hi.

[00:17:02]>> Nice to meet you. Do you want to tell me a little bit about where we are, who you are, what you do?

[00:17:08]>> Well, we are Victoria BC's first transwomenowned hair studio and Yeah.

[00:17:13]And it's been like a really cool opportunity just to have a like a queer space that a doesn't revolve around drinking and also just for me it was really important to create a space that my clients felt safe in. Something that I was always apprehensive about before in my career was I have a lot of transgender clientele and I just always felt like they didn't really feel super comfortable anywhere I was and that's because there's never been a space specifically built for them. So that's why I really had the idea to create this space. It can be really difficult when you're kind of starting a gender transition and you want your hair to really be a reflection of how you're trying to show up in the world.

[00:18:05]>> And if that's not really >> kind of safeguarded and the person doing your hair doesn't really understand that, like even small mistakes can >> make really big impacts. If you cut one inch too much off of someone who's growing their hair out for the first time, that's like two months of work that a client has got taken into to grow their hair to express themselves, right?

[00:18:30]So, it's more than just like your average haircut. It really is like helping someone along their transition and like their goals. And it's it's quite like a sacred experience.

[00:18:41]Obviously, it's personal to me, but it's also something that I just I really felt there wasn't enough resources for. So, I Yeah, I really wanted to create the environment where that could take place. And that's what I did.

[00:19:01]>> Yeah, >> that's what I did. And it's been great.

[00:19:03]It's been honestly so amazing. like I have amazing stylists and the community has really really um come together and embraced the salon and that's been amazing for me. Like >> you would have wanted this for yourself to exist.

[00:19:19]>> Exactly. Yeah. Something like this did not exist when I was younger. For a long time, um, it's been really hard for trans women to even get to a position where we can open our own businesses, where we don't face as much job, like job and education discrimination, housing discrimination, things like that, where we can actually be in a position to create >> businesses for each other. So, it's we're kind of that like first wave now since like the trans tipping point back in like 2015 where we're really seeing trans women able to create like our own resources and really like advocate for ourselves and have the ability to do so.

[00:20:03]>> So, I feel like with that privilege, we kind of have to do something with it.

[00:20:07]And yeah, that's my Miss America speech.

[00:20:12]>> I love it.

[00:20:13]>> Thank you.

[00:20:13]>> On our way over here, uh Doug and I were talking about for me kind of coming into my own queer identity that uh I found hairdressers and and eventually certain barber shops to also be kind of a safe space.

[00:20:27]>> Oh, yeah.

[00:20:28]>> Yeah.

[00:20:28]>> Oh, yeah. It's one of the oldest professions for like queer people. A lot of the times we weren't really able to have other types of jobs like especially trans women like it was either sex work or working in the beauty industry >> and like if you could like pass well enough or whatever you might be able to be like a hair stylist or like a nail technician or something like that. But quite often that wasn't the case. And we were forced into sex work. And luckily that's not my story, but it is a lot of my sister's stories. And >> so now we have like a million different opportunities. And it just so happens that I like doing hair and it it's worked out for me. But all those people like all the starlets, the Hollywood stars back in the olden days, like the people doing their makeup, the people dressing them, it was all queer people.

[00:21:22]They couldn't be out about it. But we've always kind of been behind the scenes in the beauty industry doing that creative work like for the masses.

[00:21:33]>> It reminds me of something that Eddie Licious told me about theater that it's such a queer medium and and yet queer people written out of a story that >> literally the original like women in plays were played by like young men.

[00:21:46]>> Like it's the foundation of theater is drag. Like, >> do you have a fair number of drag performers coming in here as well?

[00:21:55]>> Oh, we do. Like, I would say between Zoe and Tav, like they do almost like every drag king's hair in town.

[00:22:05]Like, it's wild. And like it was actually on my vision board for this salon is that I wanted drag kings and drag queens. It just so happened that the people I got in here as chair reventers started bringing in all these different queens and kings um to do their hair and it's like it was really one of those like affirming moments where I'm like wow this like really materialized >> and the rest is history.

[00:22:33]>> They heard the call >> or history >> now that my hair is standing up as if I'm feeling highly caffeinated. I kind of want to feel highly caffeinated.

[00:22:43]Shall we head to another queer space in Victoria?

[00:22:46]>> I would love to get some caffeine in me from another queer space in Victoria.

[00:22:51]Um, I know just the place.

[00:22:53]>> All right, >> let's go.

[00:22:54]>> Let's go. Follow me.

[00:23:01]>> It's funny because you say we're going to a queer spot. I mean, but like this is Victoria. Almost everywhere is a queer spot.

[00:23:07]>> You know what? I've noticed that there's a lot of us here. I see them walking.

[00:23:11]>> I see them walking.

[00:23:13]It's like >> I know I know by the walk >> blocked blocked.

[00:23:16]>> Totally.

[00:23:17]>> They're in the coffee shops. They're at the dentist.

[00:23:19]>> But it's an interesting thing too, right? When you have those spaces like you're talking about like queer spaces, right? Whereas it's like is it generally a safe queer space or is it a queer space because they put a sticker on their door. So like that to get queer people to feel safe.

[00:23:34]>> A safe space or is it a queer space?

[00:23:38]>> Exactly. Is it owned and operated or is it queer friendly? That's >> that's where we run into a little >> are you pandering to us or are you us?

[00:23:50]>> That's the question.

[00:23:51]>> And I think that's what Bray and I both strive for. To be a safe space to go to.

[00:23:56]>> Exactly.

[00:23:57]>> Speaking of safe places to go to.

[00:23:59]>> Oh my god.

[00:23:59]>> I think we're at one of them.

[00:24:00]>> Let's get some coffee f.

[00:24:02]>> Let's get some kafifi.

[00:24:03]>> Hi there.

[00:24:04]>> Hi.

[00:24:04]>> How are you today?

[00:24:05]>> I'm very, very good. I think we're here for caffeine and for some food and for some information.

[00:24:10]>> Okay, I'm in the information station.

[00:24:13]They've uh hired tons of people on staff here are queer and allies. Um you know, we've been a safe space for our community over the last 33 years. Uh a lot more in the last 10 since we've opened into an evening space. And uh yeah, we've got, you know, all ages drag shows, we've got art nights. We want to make sure it's a safe and fun space for everybody. That's what community is all about, right?

[00:24:36]>> Yeah, absolutely.

[00:24:37]>> And our neighborhood just keeps on growing. And then we got role play next door and it's great.

[00:24:41]>> Role play hair studio >> and all that jazz.

[00:24:46]>> Role play hair.

[00:24:47]>> I'm just going to address the elephant in the room. We will be driving slowly from now on because I don't have the electric assist. Normally I cheat, but today today I will not be cheating.

[00:25:01]Well, they say slowing down is good for your mental health.

[00:25:04]>> That's right.

[00:25:05]>> Stop and smell the roses.

[00:25:07]>> I am still interested in just kind of um building on something you were saying though, Bray.

[00:25:12]>> Please do.

[00:25:13]>> You were talking about the difference between places that will just, you know, put a queer flag >> Yeah.

[00:25:18]>> on their window. How do we draw that distinction?

[00:25:22]>> Like, >> well, I don't know if we um I mean, putting a pride flag on the window is obviously going to be better than nothing. It shows like a good positive intention.

[00:25:31]However, I think a lot of the times people just want to broaden their clientele range. Being queer friendly is especially in a city like Victoria is going to attract that. However, if you, you know, you put this pride flag in the window and it's like, "Oh, we're super queer friendly, but then for instance, say a salon put a pride flag in their window and they might list themselves as queer friendly, but they haven't actually ever done any gender diversity training or they don't actually have any queer staff and sometimes although their intentions are good and they might be an ally, they still might be a little underinformed.

[00:26:09]And for example, um, say a trans man comes in for a gender affirming haircut and he's been growing out his sideburns for like six months, right? He's just started testosterone and he's really proud of these sideburns. They're super gender affirming. And then, you know, the hair stylist not really understanding the gravity of that just goes and kind of like shaves his sideburns off, you know, cuz that's what you would typically do with a men's cut.

[00:26:36]So there's kind of like there's an awareness that if you're cisgender and you or you're just you're just not really aware of a lot of like the the trans experience and you haven't known trans people or had trans clients, you might just not know exactly how to best support us. So that's kind of a little bit of the gripe I have with that.

[00:27:03]There's progressivism and the values of today, but there's also like liberalism as it was understood in the 80s and 90s and early 2000s and things have changed a lot since then and it's not necessarily the same values.

[00:27:15]>> Totally. The queer community is not a monolith and there's so much intersection that I think a really safe way to go about it nowadays is what is best for like the collective whole and really thinking in terms of like okay what does the least harm and yeah it can be tricky but I think that in Victoria here we have a really strong community and like we're very connected did and we tend to be pretty on top of those things.

[00:27:49]>> Yeah. Coming from a place of kindness.

[00:27:51]Not every time when I've encountered a activism in progressive scenes have I felt like it was necessarily coming from a kind place. But I find that also like there is one can still make mistakes and learn from them here. And I think that is something really special that we have in Victoria.

[00:28:07]>> Oh, big time. Yeah. You have queer people with totally different backgrounds, right? And then you also have LGBT people who may have come out and or just were born in totally different times as well. And just like how some feminists today may not align with feminists of the 70s, queer people today may not align with a lot of the values of the queer community in the '9s sort of thing. it. Yeah, it can be tricky, but I think as long as we keep an open mind, we're going to keep progressing.

[00:28:43]>> Absolutely. Well, I there was a period where I think we were not in a necessarily great place because I I was afraid of admitting to uh errors or to having, you know, made mistakes because I was afraid of like it becoming a thing that I would be called out for in like an really aggressive way. And so there came a point where I think also people got really in the habit of being extremely performative.

[00:29:07]>> Oh yeah.

[00:29:09]>> And it was like this kind of like fake thing like somebody could be watching at all times.

[00:29:14]>> Yeah.

[00:29:14]>> Yeah. There's definitely like there's a limit to everything. And I think just politically and activist wise, like there can be times when we are so hypervigilant that we actually resemble our oppressors more than standing up for just our rights, you know, like. And I think that it's good to be aware because we don't want to push any allies away as well. But at the same time, we need to stand firm in our values. It's such like a teeter totter of like activism and then when are we involving personalities over our principles and I think also too just having a community now and stuff like that that's just so vibrant. I think a lot of us are just really done being kind of pushed to the side and yeah >> you know like dismissed. It's an interesting thing now where it's just like we're finding our ways to kind of stand up for those things but in like in numbers large groups coming together and respecting each other in their own in our own collective way.

[00:30:17]>> Amen.

[00:30:17]>> Yeah. And I think that's one thing that's so important about like queer owned businesses is because I think as long as we have our own economies or like our own like they can try to take away our rights but as long as we have like economic pull as much as it's like you know feeding into a capitalistic system it's also they can't take it away from us if we own it you don't.

[00:30:48]So I think like building queer owned businesses and having that like self-feeding infrastructure where like the owners are queer, the customers are queer, it creates our own queer little ecosystem and we become self- sustaining.

[00:31:03]>> Well, I think this is probably a really great moment to also add that for this episode we did something very special.

[00:31:10]The the whole crew and cast of course are queer.

[00:31:13]>> Oh my god. Love But it but it's it's interesting, right?

[00:31:18]Like I love that so much.

[00:31:20]>> Queer markets, baby.

[00:31:21]>> Yeah. It's so interesting. Like we're little things like that are big for us.

[00:31:26]The gay agenda is alive and well.

[00:31:27]>> Agenda is alive and well.

[00:31:29]>> And I love that you did that and I love that you took the time. Do you know what I mean? And like made that happen.

[00:31:35]>> Well, it's important >> because what was it? Why was it important to you if you don't mind me asking?

[00:31:39]>> It's my community for one thing.

[00:31:40]>> Yes. When I approach queer topics in this show, it's different than when I approach, you know, jazz.

[00:31:48]>> Yeah.

[00:31:49]>> Or it's different when I approach the ch the Chinese Canadian community.

[00:31:54]>> Yes.

[00:31:54]>> I can relate to a lot of things. I can be very interested.

[00:31:58]>> Yeah.

[00:31:59]>> I can support.

[00:32:00]>> Yeah.

[00:32:00]>> But I'm not it's not it's not me. But when I do these episodes, these offer me the opportunity for my own growth in my own community.

[00:32:12]And it's a shared experience with an entire cast and crew of other queer people.

[00:32:18]>> Yeah. How's the legs? How's the legs?

[00:32:19]>> Everything.

[00:32:20]>> Yeah.

[00:32:22]>> Well, I'm sweating just thinking about what you're doing.

[00:32:26]>> Love when someone's just doing everything for us.

[00:32:30]>> I'm suffering for my art. suffer for me.

[00:32:33]>> But seriously though, Johnny, like kudos to you for doing that.

[00:32:38]>> Yeah, I think that's so amazing and it's like it just gives a sense of like genuine practicing what you preach, you know? And I think that's kind of like that key what we were talking about like the pride flags or like rainbow washing where it's like >> not just doing the thing but being the thing. It's like it's not we're not just a queer friendly salon. We are >> a queer salon.

[00:32:59]>> Yes. Yeah. You you did say something interesting to me though. Um even the role play at some point. Sometimes you do a little bit of code switching like you don't necessarily put everything out there all the time for everyone.

[00:33:13]>> Well, being being a queer person and being a hair stylist like totally different things. Yes.

[00:33:17]>> When you're a hair stylist, like you need to constantly be >> almost in roll for your customer. Yeah.

[00:33:26]>> So in roll >> Yeah.

[00:33:28]>> role play. It's true.

[00:33:30]>> But >> when you have someone in your chair, you need to be able to >> be kind of who they need in that moment.

[00:33:38]And whether they want the fun ex like flirty, exciting hairdresser or they just want to be left alone and like you need to be able to read that energy and and turn on whatever they need in that moment. And sometimes you'll have like you have more clients in a day probably than me because you're shorter services.

[00:33:57]Sometimes you'll have like 10 15 but it's also like if you're that type of person where you can have like so many faces >> and once you get used to it you just get used to it >> but not many people can do it that I think that's what's the that's creates the longevity in our industry you know what I mean is is like what do they say if you can make it the first five to six years in the hair industry you can make it your career but sometimes a lot of people just the emotional drainage, do you know what I mean? Like where they're not able to >> play these different roles and stuff like that. They just end up jumping out of it.

[00:34:34]>> Yeah. The social burnout.

[00:34:36]>> Yeah. You have to enjoy it. Not just the hair aspect of it, but like the people aspect of it. Now, you know, like with our voices and stuff like that being a little bit more louder than they have been for a very long time where it's just like we get to pick and choose a little bit of where we want to spend that energy. Yeah.

[00:34:52]>> And you know, >> who's in our chair almost >> and who's in our chair and it's okay.

[00:34:55]It's okay to protect ourselves. It's okay to protect our energy. And it's okay to spend it on where we feel it's worth it.

[00:35:03]>> Yes, mama.

[00:35:04]>> Yeah. And it's important like what what Bray's doing where, you know, she has, you know, the shop right in the front and like it's on street level like you know what I mean? Like mine's in my little backyard and like my own little space.

[00:35:16]>> Generally like capitalists only care about the economy. So, it's like if pushing us out is going to affect the economy negatively because we are helping to promote and like run the economy, then they can't really get rid of us because they need us for their capital. So, it it it's kind of like playing into like a broken system, but it's it's also like a surefire way to enshrine ourselves into like the system where we can't be like erased, you know?

[00:35:44]>> Well, and you have to play into the world you exist in.

[00:35:46]>> Exactly. So, uh, and throughout history, we see people doing that. It's very nice to be in the place that we are now that that things are able to be as open as they are. Not saying that we're living in like a great time to be alive. I mean, in some ways, we are, and in other ways, well, >> it's not bad.

[00:36:00]>> It's not bad.

[00:36:01]>> I'll take it. I'll take it over like 1820s England.

[00:36:06]>> Yeah. Well, exactly right.

[00:36:07]>> I'll take that over 15 to 20 years ago.

[00:36:10]>> Yeah.

[00:36:10]>> Bray's important to me. What she does is important to me. It's very beautiful what you're doing and I appreciate it so much.

[00:36:17]>> Thanks, baby.

[00:36:20]>> I mean it though.

[00:36:21]>> Likewise, my love. Oh, >> yeah.

[00:36:24]>> We love each other.

[00:36:27]>> Well, I know you make a bit a big difference for a lot of people. Also, people who are kind of earlier in their in their trans journey.

[00:36:34]>> It also just kind of so happened this way when like word got out there was a trans hair stylist in town is um a lot of people who are just starting their transition.

[00:36:43]>> Yeah. So a lot of times they won't trust anyone to like take them on that first step like especially their first gender affirming service. So a lot of the times I am seeing specifically trans women in my chair who might have just come out or just started hormones or sometimes aren't even out to their families, but they'll come to me and they want to begin their transition with their hair and it's often times the first thing we're able to change about ourselves.

[00:37:12]>> Yeah. Um, sometimes like, you know, we're we're relying on these doctors who don't really understand us for our hormones. We're relying on like the world to kind of slowly get with the program. But the one thing we do have full control over is our hair and we can change it immediately. Um, I just had a client in my chair recently who came to visit from Salt Spring Island and she was, I think, 80 and just starting her transition and she like was telling me how she doesn't want to live the rest of her life not being herself. And it's just it's such an honor to take someone through that that step of like their self-actualization and kind of guide them in terms of like whether it's just doing color or a cut of their hair, something that's going to help them feel like, oh my gosh, I can actually do this. You know, like >> sometimes all it takes is that little bit of change for people to really see themselves differently and get that confidence. That's what really warms my heart. And if I could do that every day, that's what I would love to do.

[00:38:14]Obviously, there's not really enough trans people to fully pay the bills doing just that, but that is something that I hold near and dear to my heart.

[00:38:23]And it's one of the main reasons I opened roleplay was so we could facilitate that special special moment in someone's lives.

[00:38:32]>> Yeah. And you could be facilitating moments that they don't identify as trans today, but maybe sometime in the future you will. You know what I mean?

[00:38:39]is not necessarily that day that haircut.

[00:38:42]>> We're all kind of in some sort of transition in our lives like whether it's like becoming a mom or it's like graduating university or getting the job we wanted or we're in a new relationship or we're freshly single and going through a breakup. We're always kind of like switching up that role we play in life. And that's kind of where like the name roleplay came from was like not just gender roles but just roles in general. There's like a Shakespeare quote like all the world's a stage and everyone must play their part.

[00:39:12]>> We're all born naked and the rest is straight >> or that. Yeah, exactly. And I wanted to kind of like emphasize that as like hair being a conduit of change. It's like what really excites me about the beauty industry and just my job in general.

[00:39:27]>> Changing the world one haircut at a time.

[00:39:29]>> Yeah.

[00:39:30]>> Yeah.

[00:39:31]>> Okay. Should we go?

[00:39:33]>> All right. So, now we're going to be going to the Vicious Poodle, local queer hot spot.

[00:39:38]>> Oh, you don't have to tell me. I love the Vicious Poodle.

[00:39:41]>> Yeah, this place is pretty amazing.

[00:39:42]>> Yeah. No, this is actually been a really important place for my queer journey. I mean, I've done screening events here. I did my drag debut here.

[00:39:49]>> Yeah, I think this place is very important to a lot of people >> and we've been talking about safe spaces this entire day and like I this really does feel like a safe space where you know that like even if you kind of fall in your face like you'll be greeted with love.

[00:40:02]>> Yeah. And I think >> we'll laugh at you at first, but then we'll pick then we'll pick you up.

[00:40:07]>> It is my favorite bar in Victoria. It's quite literally the only place I go.

[00:40:12]>> I'm not sure that I would have done a drag date you in 2025 if it wasn't >> I get it. I feel so comfortable at this place. Like I usually only poo at home, but I poo at the poodle. So >> nice.

[00:40:22]>> Exactly. Well, and you know what? There never used to be a bar like this growing up. Since the poodles opened up, I've just experienced so much more community building. I don't know what it is about the space, but it just seems like it brings people together.

[00:40:35]>> And that patio in the summertime, >> it's pretty good.

[00:40:41]>> Get it.

[00:40:58]Heat. Heat. Heat.

[00:41:08]Heat. Heat.