Parion USD is a decentralized stablecoin built on the Bitcoin Cash network using CashTokens technology, featuring a market-driven interest rate mechanism similar to Liquidity V2, with collateralization by BCH and redemption capabilities that maintain the $1 peg through arbitrage and liquidation processes. The project demonstrates how DeFi applications can be developed on UTXO-based blockchains, requiring careful security audits, infrastructure ownership, and strategic ecosystem integration to achieve sustainable growth and user adoption.
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The Bitcoin Cash Podcast #180: ParyonUSD Launch & Conference Representation feat. Mathieu Geukens追加:
with a name that was not spoken in last night's state of the union message.
Jeffrey Epson >> got Bitcoin backed by MIT and apparently Larry you will own nothing.
>> Bitcoin has been hijacked. There will be no real noncontrolled currency in the world.
[music] Bitcoin Cash on its path to global reserve currency.
[music] I waited years for this. [music] I made myself so sick. Waiting for Leila to come around.
[music] Hate hijack freedom sound. Can't keep a bad [ __ ] down.
back in [music] the town.
[music] I see in the fre [music] 12 words are seeds of power.
[music] Toxic idols fly [music] private jets in the flest. Watch us down below as we die.
>> [music] >> suffering for sins that we never did commit. Turn around, pay your taxes to better files. [singing] [ __ ] this.
[music] I see the freer [singing] [music] words are seeds of power.
They're coming from underground [music] to un so [music] freing.
[music] [music] [singing] >> [music] >> bank account's got the final puzzle back.
>> In a separate email from Epstein sent to early Bitcoin developer on April 19th, 2014 that he just had referring to the name [music] of Jesus.
We command all satanic pregnancies to misaryry right now. We declare that anything this man can see [music] of all their singer [music] 12 words are seeds [music] of power.
When I come back to town, their temple [music] WILL FALL.
TO global currency.
Global reserve currency in start building today.
There will be no real non-controlled currency in the world. [music] >> It's default, baby.
>> We're coming for you banks.
>> And this is exactly what these Bitcoin Cash [music] people are building.
>> Shout out to the dragon riders in the house of the dragon.
>> This is a completely different situation than it was 2 or 3 years ago.
>> Yeah, that's how frogs get boiled. And they added [music] a bunch of new op codes and they're doing a bunch of things over there. It will be the most hated really ever because a lot of people from some propaganda hate Bitcoin Cash.
Hello and welcome back to the Bitcoin Cash podcast. Following Bitcoin Cash on its rise to global reserve currency.
This is episode number 180. Parion USD launch and conference representation featuring Matthew Hkins.
Today is Saturday the 9th of May 20126.
In the markets, BCH is at $450 US.17 which is flat. One BTC sat buys 178.5 BCH. That's also flat. And one ETH buys 513 megaats also flat. That's lean 30-day users at 644 and the tokconaut TVL down a little at 10,35 BCH. Our guest today is a regular. I'm sure many listeners will have heard him on the show many many times before, but he's constantly raising the bar in terms of his output for the BCH community with cashiz wallet, cash script tooling and library and now Paron USD among other projects. Matthew, welcome back to the show. How you doing, man?
>> Thank you. Yeah, doing well. Very excited to be on um and indeed I'm happy to be on uh again. So, it's I've been on a couple times, but a lot has happened since December. Uh, yeah. So, I'm excited to talk about it and all the progress we made, including the the launch.
>> Do you think BCH is speeding up? Is that what it feels like? Like you said, December was, you know, five months ago.
It wasn't that long ago, but it kind of feels like it. Yeah, I think there's there's definitely there were some projects who were long in the works including uh Tion and then uh yeah, it takes a while for it to have it truly finished and then do the launch. Um yeah, so I I think that's why it feels that it's accelerating but really these things take yeah more years of work. So um but it's only real once it's out of course that that's when the users and the the the investors like that's when the utility actually manifests because before then it's it's uh yeah just testing on the test network and that doesn't create value in the real world.
So >> yeah obviously we have uh bliss coming up as well. We will touch on that later but I just want to give everyone a quick reminder to upgrade their nodes. Uh you got to be ready on v29.0.0. know for BCHN and um for you know being there at Bliss uh as well too. So everybody uh can be prepared for that. I'm leaving to arrive on Tuesday. So I'll be there Wednesday and Thursday. Uh if you're there early, come say hi to me. And if you're there on time, also come say hi to me. But I've got to remind everyone that I'm very likely not to recognize you unless we've met in person a few times. I do my best, but I am terrible [laughter] at recognizing people from there like screen names or that I've only met uh one time before, but you're going to be there. You're going to be speaking. Got something big in the works for us there?
>> Uh yeah. So I'm happy to first give an an I guess similar to what I'll be doing today, give an overview of how the journey was of building Peron USD, shipping it and then of course leading up uh also mentioning some of the challenges, things that other buildings can learn and then uh next also what things we still have in store and what our plans are, what we think are the important areas for us to to focus on and so yeah that's what we want to talk about and that would be on this I think the second talk of on day one and then uh after me Rich will talk and Rich is also part of the Perryon USD team and so he will do a bit a bit of a broad talk I think on tooling and infrastructure but I won't spo spoil too much about what he's talking about so day one will be quite peron USD packed I think >> yeah I'm just thinking back on that like I don't know that we ever got a sequel to the original talk you did about the state of the hash tokens ecosystem, right? I thought that might become a yearly recurring thing, checking it on the stats, how it's all going, but maybe somebody else is going to have to give that talk or maybe we'd even need to just wait a couple more years and then have it be like cash tokens after five years or or something like that because >> five years would be a good recap. That's like a Yeah, nice number. Yeah, I mean in general I think cash tokens has been just crushing it basically which when you go back in history was not like pre-ordained. I mean I was very confident at the time but it's always funny to think back to people who were like doubting it or like oh it's going to be another SLP to it's not going to be that great or after Smart BCH. But I feel like that part of the ecosystem has really proven itself and I don't see anybody doubting or dismissing that at all really anymore.
>> Yeah, I think I think part of it is also back then you need to make like theoretical arguments or the difference between cash tokens and SLP. Someone could build an AMM DEX or someone could build a decentralized stable coin protocol. It was all like theoretical argument. It's like uh yeah, but then now it's all real, right? It's people are shipping these things and and you can you can use the products. You can uh see them being announced and and and see them in the builder tubes, people building the the new IDs. So I I like that the most is the things going from ID. I think even the idea of a decentralized stable coin was on that uh year one uh cash tokens in review uh was one of the last slides like what what will happen next or what what projects are we likely to see? Um, yeah. So, so I think that's also part part of the reason why the there's not there's no vocal critics. I think like there's the people who who like cash tokens and want to get involved. And then there's the people who just kind of ignore it and are not focused on on on BCH for the moment. So, who we need to convert, but I don't think there's any skeptics or critics that I know of at least.
>> Yeah. Which is pretty rare thing. But I think it's worth taking a moment to reflect on just because so much of it is not actually anything to do with the tech at all in terms of it's about trust, right? Because everybody's saying, "Oh, no. Cash tokens is well, some people including me say cash tokens is going to be good. Don't worry, it's going to work out." You know, then after it does work out, everybody who at the time was a bit hesitant can kind of be reassured like, "Oh, wait. People did actually know what they were doing, right?" And you just see across the crypto ecosystem this constant back and forth where some projects, some teams are promising these great upgrades are going to fix everything and then the upgrades arrive and like nothing happens. So it's rare. [laughter] >> Yeah. I mean there's a lot of examples, right? That's that's definitely topical at the moment that people are talking about that. So I don't really want to pick on them specifically, but just in general, right? You know, how do people build? Because for users that are not able to technically evaluate the specifics of each individual thing, which is a tiny fraction of people, right? To be technical enough and specifically specialized in blockchains to, you know, evaluate the projects on that merit very difficult, but everybody else has to do it off kind of social heruristics combined with their own judgment. So, I think it's just such a good sign for BCH that we promised and then delivered. And then that's also why the following upgrades have not been as controversial or I mean there's been discussion obviously in the leadup to them, but I think people are feeling good about that. Yeah. Do you want to talk quickly about the Lea upgrade?
Where where does that fit into your world?
>> Oh, well. So we uh we were with Qashq we were one of the few projects who actually had to yeah prepare uh and and we yeah Jeremy you and I we talked about this in preparation for the Blaze hackathon. So we want to get some of the tooling ready uh so specifically cashcript allows you to create smart contracts and smart contract transactions and so now with the Lelaya upgrades we will have loops so new upgrades to do loop operations. We also will have some of the limits tweaked like the NFT commitment size will be expanded. Um there will be the new um pay to script that will be a new standardized output type. So that that also we supported in in cashcript. Um and then one thing we didn't get to yet with cashcript is the functions. So reusable functions. So that's a more advanced uh thing that's on our road map for for November. So definitely yeah definitely something we have been working on and Rosco will also be speaking at Bliss on everything related to cashcript what we have done how the Lelaya upgrades fits in and then also what's still in the pipeline for later this year.
>> Does any of that Lea stuff directly play into Paron? I mean you've launched ahead of the upgrade so presumably it doesn't need any of those but does it add anything or is it going to impact a future version or an upgrade or something like that?
>> Yeah. So, funny enough, we had uh quite a few questions about this because yeah, people say h yeah people want you to to lose use the latest and greatest of course but so yeah we don't really we don't need it. There could be some small optimizations but in the grand scheme of things that would just be like transaction size and transaction fee improvements. So uh yeah they wouldn't be too too meaningful. One thing that it theoretically enables because loops allow for extra flexibility is that you can create more composable contracts. But so currently that's also not a real immediate benefit. Uh but yeah, you could imagine that having more composable contracts in the long run uh yeah would be would be a benefit. So that's that's one thing that that does come to my mind of how yeah of how the new the new primitives could could help new new contracts. And do you have any feeling in general about the VM? I've been saying that there's sort of like this trilogy of cash tokens, Velma, Leela, and then I'm expecting that discussions for next year or the year after are going to focus on something different. It seems like the VM is kind of in a good state and we're not maybe some small tweaks or optimization somewhere, but there's fundamentally kind of no big limiting factor on what can be built on BCH. now is that how you're seeing it?
>> Yeah, definitely. So, I hope to see people experiment with some of the very advanced things you can do in smart contracts like zero knowledge proofs.
Um, so for this you you definitely need functions and loops. So, I think the new upgrade is what enables those advanced uh applications uh including including of course Jason Bas quantum root. So if you want to do new cryptography in smart contracts to to enable new kinds of signature schemes that's also a lot of yeah an area with a lot of potential for research not only for quantum but just generally new cryptography always enables yeah similar to signatures which are on the same curve but still enabled some some new use cases. So I think I think that's one of the areas we will see innovation with uh with the new data upgrade. Do you have any thoughts on quantum? I know you've been jumping in on the discussion a [laughter] little bit here and there. How worried are you that we're all about to get wrecked by a quantum computer? Uh yeah, not too for the immediate future, I'm not not worried at all, but I do try to listen to both sides. For example, you shared a clip of the uh of of the conference, I think. Yeah. and and there in Vegas I think it was also discussed at the BTC conference and there the skeptics came out stronger they had this at least I agreed with that assessment that uh but but I'm going back and forth a bit so I'm definitely no no experts um yeah and I do think BCH is in a very good position because partly because of the upgrade we we're activating in a week from now so because you can do inscript can use these advanced primitives to construct alternative signature scheme And so it to be quantum ready way in advance of needing like a coordinated roll out. And of course once you add something to consensus you commit to it but with with all its trade-offs and you cannot reverse it. So then then yeah that's a much much higher bar to meet compared to just allowing experimentation.
>> Yeah that debate was really interesting.
It was from the BDC conference. James Ourn and Reirden were on the skeptic side and Hunter Beast and his name's Alex something or something like that [laughter] were on the like sort of pro-quantum or quantum scare side I guess you could say and everyone can make up their own mind watching that debate but I felt like yeah the anti-quantum team just there was a hands down victory [laughter] like not even a lot of room for uh discussion there which to me sort of like indicates that yeah maybe some of the quantum upset in the industry is a little bit artificial or it's a bit premature or you know certain people are getting a bit carried away with worry about quantum because if these two guys who are at the leading edge of the quantum research and they had this huge stage in the BDC conference and they just got wrecked in a debate. Well, kind of maybe it's not as worrying as everybody believes then, you know.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, I I do think the the Google paper that initially yeah sparked a lot of the debate, I do think that that was like reason for a caution and and yeah, for many people it was also just a the reason why they did more research into this whole quantum stuff.
uh but then then later I think the the name was project 11 they tried to give yeah they gave out a bounty and say oh we did some more groundbreaking research but then it was widely understood that this was actually not any groundbreaking research they kind of fudged the results so the quantum computer didn't do any any relevant part of the computation only the classical the classical computer kind of as I understand preomputed the the results so of course that gives a bad name because then if if part of the research the the quantum side is putting out is not fully honest or or complete in in what they communicating then it's easy to become more skeptical overall. So I'm in the middle. I I do follow it pretty closely because yeah maybe at some point either either way it becomes clear whether it will be able like whether it will be a breakthrough uh pretty soon or whether it's it's a decade away or something >> and are you then interested in slash open to or anywhere close to on these ideas about burning Satoshi's coins or even limiting the release of them somehow or some other kind of quantum mitigation or are you just kind of like leave the coins? We'll just face tank at 1.7 million dump even if that happens like it's not going to happen all at once. Probably you know property rights.
>> Yeah, I uh I have engaged in some of the discussions. Uh so I'm sure people can find my opinions if they really want to.
But I I don't feel strongly enough to to widely broadcast. Uh uh like I said, I'm still I'm monitoring the situation and uh so for now, I don't think there's any reason to be super concerned, but as BCH devs, including yourself, Jeremy, I think it's good that we Yeah, that we keep watch out. I know you did a post also monitoring the situation.
[laughter] >> Yeah, I like that meme. I think that summarizes it quite a lot, [laughter] you know. It's one of those memes that is like full circle. like it starts out as a joke like I'm monitoring the situation and then they had that picture of those guys in the White House uh in the American government were like scrolling on Twitter like trying to figure out what was going on in the Iran war or something like that and then it became like wow we really are monitoring the situation and then it came [laughter] back around again as a as a meme. So quantum is kind of like in that perfect category where it's like no we're monitoring the situation. Haha.
But also we are like seriously we are monitoring. [laughter] >> Yeah. And and so just to conclude that thought like everyone has like opinions but I I've noticed immediately that it's a a divisive subject. So hopefully yeah I I'll leave it at that. Well, it can be divisive, but that's why it's important that we talk about it, you know, because if we don't talk about it, that's how it will get even more divisive is when communication breaks down. I mean, I've been thinking I sort of feel like my opinion on it is kind of like if we're all in a village and I gave this metaphor of a huge amount of uh water that was like frozen up the top of a mountain that could just dump down and kill the v village. But the more I thought about it, I thought maybe a better way of explaining it is like we're all in a village and there's worry about like some kind of ice yeti coming out of the, you know, [laughter] the forest to attack us all, right? And there's basically two options, right? If you believe it that there is a yeti, then you're obviously going to be concerned about it. You should make, we should make a yeti defense plan. Duh.
Like obviously. But if you don't believe in a yeti, you should also want a Yeti defense plan. Why? It's very simple.
Because if you're right and there is no Yeti, the creation of this Yeti defense plan is the quickest way to calm down everyone who's worried about the Yeti, right? Telling them, "Don't worry, there's no Yeti, don't worry about it."
Or like, "It's not going to be a problem or anything." Is not going to help you communicate with the people who are worried. It's just going to make them more stressed and create division, right? You should say, "No, make a make a plan." And once we all have a good plan, then you know, problem will be solved. And then the second thing is if you're skeptical that there is a Yeti and then there is, you're going to need the Yeti plan, right? So like all roads lead to we should just have a good plan that's being well discussed and I think that's that's happening as long as people can, you know, keep that open mind to it really.
>> Okay, let's talk Paron.
>> I do get a little bit of a feeling like this is just another wave of like technology doomerism where it's like with cryptocurrency. I feel like I haven't seen this argument in a long time, but with all the proof of work stuff being like, "Oh, that it's horrible for the environment." And then LLMs became popular and they're like, "Oh, these data centers are horrible for the environment." Like we and people are becoming dumber and all this. And I feel like, yeah, quantum computers will be the next the so-called experts will be like, "Oh, we got to put all these like check check marks in place. We got to, you know, have the watchtowers up and it's going to be a big nothing."
>> Maybe. I mean that's the I yeah I think highly like I mean I saw a clip on Twitter earlier today of Bernie Sanders in 2020 saying if we don't immediately pass this you whatever multi-t trillion dollar like climate deal then the whole planet is going to be wrecked in like six years or something like that and then in hindsight those like there's always a market for alarmism and so somebody is always going to be trying to sell fear like panic FUD. That's why it's called FUD. Somebody's always going to be trying to sell that. But at the same time, nothing ever happens. Isn't real, right? And you never want to be the one who's just caught out with no plan. That's exactly how you get that's the same. You know, the dinosaurs were like, "Oh, meteors, that's FUD." And then they got wrecked. So, [laughter] that's kind of that's kind of how it is.
You know, banking institutions were like, "Oh, Bitcoin, this is some FUD that's going to go away." and then it didn't. So, you're always trying to really balance those two concerns, but I see what you're saying. I think you might be right.
>> All right. Anyway, let's get on to Paron. So, this is your project that you announced one year ago at Bliss, and as you saying before the show, it's now going to be live and in prod at the next Bliss. So, congratulations on that. You have a uh stats site. I updated the stats yesterday, but it's probably already changed again. It's been >> Yeah, it changes continuously. Yeah.
>> So, you've got 1590 BCH TVL, which is 700,000 uh dollars roughly. You've got 377,000 PUSD borrowed and 13 uh yeah 113,000 staked. Tell us about Paron.
Congratulations. And yeah, where did where did it all get started? Maybe let's go from the beginning and then get up to the launch.
>> Yeah, it's it started it started more than two years ago. So it's been a a long journey. Uh but so the the public announcement was roughly one year ago and um uh yeah and so there was an announcement talk at Bliss unveiling it for the first time. the the name of the talk was redacted before beforehand so it wasn't uh too obvious because yeah if it would have called on USD announcement talk then then it's it's clearly a stable coin um so yeah now it's shipped and live uh for for over a week um and and it has been awesome to get user feedback get into user hands especially we wanted to get the UX very very nice so uh yeah so that We have done a lot of polish and there were a lot of positive positive feedback for that and also we made this stats stats dashboard that you referenced. So you can see live stats on all the yeah the current state of the the protocol. Yeah. So for example here that this is uh the protocol overview with daily snapshots of uh of three things. So you can see the the green the uh the pink and the the the blue which is the respectively the BCH total value locked the borrowed amount of Peron USD and then lastly the staked amount of Peron USD and al also the green will always be higher than the pink uh and will be larger than the the blue. So they they grow together and I think today was the first time if you look at the live snapshots that it's slightly uh this the total value is slight slightly decreased and that's because we enabled redemptions. So we had a kind of rollout plan where we um we had some safety buffer on the collateral ratio and we also initially for the first week we disabled redemptions in the UI and now we turned it on. So now it's easier.
Yeah. Now it's it's possible for people to create redemptions. So presumably this this small dip was either people repaying their loans so clo closing their position or uh yeah or creating a redemption which also shrinks the total value locked. So yeah I want to see this graph up and to the right of course it's a stable coin so people already made the joke like no it should this should be flat but yeah the price chart of course should be stable at $1. uh but this this total value locked and this per p per p per p per p per p per p per p per p per p per p peron USD in circulation can can grow orders of magnitude >> well you said that it's been over two years that you've been working on this project and I think maybe let's just pause on that for a moment because it's been very noticeable that this uh even just this last couple of weeks but in general over the last year let's say stable coins have become so much more a part of the conversation outside of BCH in the broader cryptocurrency. It seems the more the banking system gets their fingers into the industry, they kind of really like stable coins because it's maybe more similar to what they know and they can sell kind of a line about, well, crypto is not that revolutionary.
It's just, you know, a new way of doing the same old thing. Maybe it's slightly more efficient, but we'll just control and regulate. You know, they can kind of dismiss the edges or the wilder bits of crypto and just kind of stick to what they know. or maybe that's just the first step of them integrating it into their existing products in a way that their customers are comfortable with. So maybe you could tell us a little bit about why you because you could have done anything in in BCH, but why you specifically went for a stable coin and seems like you've been on a winner because you've kind of frontr run the industry waking up to how important it is, which means you're launching kind of at the perfect moment.
>> Oh yeah, thanks. I do think our uh the other moment we're launching is good.
So, so I agree I agree on that point. Um so why yeah why did we pick a stable coin to build is so we definitely wanted to build something on top of cash tokens right so we were enabled by the cash tokens update on BCH and so there and we wanted to build something within D5 so clear finance application and um one of the things that became quite clear is you can also make a lending and borrowing protocol where you just have existing tokens they call it I think money markets like a but for that you need like existing big tokens that people want to trade. And of course, if you're on a new ecosystem, then there are no big tokens. So, one of the requirements that we also had was it needs to be able it needs to be something that you can launch from scratch without a big supporting ecosystem. So, you don't have any big existing liquidity pairs or no big existing tokens. Um, so that was the that was the mindset and also of course we knew that volatility uh is a big problem in crypto. Uh so for example if if we see if we look at any hedge that was originally mainly pitched as a hedging solution uh because of the volatility problem or at least a lot of people don't want to uh don't want to always deal with this or want an option uh to to be able to uh yeah hedge some of this risk. So so we knew we understood that that was a big problem.
Um, and then also in DeFi, it's very clear that people want some kind of APY, similar to how how you have your savings account in a bank. They they can offer interest rates. Um, and so it's a compelling savings product. And so in the same sense, you want there to be maybe the risks are not the same. So I I don't uh uh that's not what I'm not saying the risks are equivalent, but I'm just saying people want APY because otherwise the the BCH they hold is just sitting idle. So people might want to take on some risks like we see also with AMM indexes to provide liquidity and then earn over time uh hopefully fully understanding what what the money is doing and uh and and any relevant risks when there are. Um, so that that was that was very enticing. And then lastly, it's not only a stable coin, there's not only an APY aspect. Um, but there's also a borrowing aspect like I mentioned. Um, but you borrow not against an existing asset, but you kind of borrow against a newly created asset. So this is then the the PUSD stable coin. Um so so that was really the combination of factors both the the technical uh aspects then the the timing and then also that the fact that it combines multiple of these D5 primitives borrowing staking and then stability or or hedging against volatility.
>> Yeah. And so it's based on the Liquidity V2 uh protocol which is similar to Moria with MUSD, but it seems like you even though you both have based it on that same design, you've kind of come come out with slightly different implementations. I still don't fully understand the exact nuances of the differences there. Can you walk us through that and why liquidity v2 is the popular model when there's tons of different ways to do stable coins?
>> Yeah. Uh I definitely can. So the reason I I've I've heard this now a few times.
So maybe we should consider making like a comparison overview or something. But the reason we have not done so is because uh then you're just either just comparing two options. So you're really putting yourself in in competition or comparison with some something else. So then almost the goal seems to give green checks and red check red crosses or something which is not something we want to do. So yeah we explicitly modeled after liquidity v2 um and the re the reason we did is what was a breakthrough with them is kind of the marketdriven interest rates. So interest rates is very important to the stability mechanism and also to the APY. So um it plays a key role also I think that measures the general economy interest rates are crucial for how how money flows through the the economy and also in defi. So there will be a D5 interest rate and the nice thing about liquidity V2 is that it thinks in these terms it thinks about how do we make a DeFi native interest rate um like a going interest rate that's only based uh on the the native asset in this case Bitcoin Cash and then the the protocol on top which issues the the PONUSD um yeah so we try to be as close as possible and we have a whole section on the documentation what there are differences so with all the differences and some of them are minor so about limits what's the minimum and maximum borrowing size things like this but also there's differences because their protocol was designed for EVM and to make it work for UTXOs you have to do some architectural changes so yeah so it's correct to say it's inspired or based based off on that idea but it's uh yeah it has important differences and then I would refer people to the to documentation uh and so earlier stable coins decentralized stable coins because centralized stable coins are just a whole other beast. For that, you mainly need good banking partnerships and and and licenses and and connections high higher up with the uh the leg legislative branch and things like that.
But for a decentralized stable coins, the first popular example was D, which has since been rebranded to this the sky stable coin, but I'll still refer to it as as D. And the protocol was called Maker Dao. And so D initially was single assets. Uh so sim similar to how Peron USD is only single assets collateralized by Bitcoin Cash and in the case of Maker Dow that's that was of course Ethereum.
Um but so what maker DAO needed is they needed a sort of council that votes on whether to increase or lower interest rates. So um it's kind of planned. It's not a bottom up emergent uh system in the economic sense. It's more of a there's a small committee of planners which top down plan the interest rates and so this has very important economic um yeah negative consequence I would say. So there's a lot of decisions that follow once you decide whether to do the the interest rate market driven versus committee decided. Um so I think yeah that was the first iteration and so the interest rate being market driven was the real breakthrough from the liquidity v2 protocol.
>> And then you've been on obviously a journey in terms of getting it ready for launch. You had a bit of a delay uh based on yeah security reviews and audits but it seems like everything seems to be running quite well now that it's live in production. So I guess that extra uh weight has been [laughter] worthwhile, right? Rather than launching and and discovering a problem. Can you tell us a little bit about the whole process of the launching? Did it take longer than you think? Was there more involved with the development than you expected? How did you come onto these security problems? And what advice can you give to people that are maybe also thinking about launching a BCH DeFi app?
Yeah. So that's that's a lot of uh different questions in one, but so to give a general overview, we had uh two smart contract audits. Um and and so we were ramping up to to to launch back in December, but then there was still an an issue that was found by one of the uh auditors in like follow-up uh investigation.
Um and so yeah, of course we we delayed the launch and in some sense our timing on that was good because uh there's since or like I would say since November, December, there's really been an uh a breakthrough in how good these AI models are in security analysis. So we were able to uh yeah really uh leverage them fully or like employ them to the fullest extent and and able to security test these protocols with the latest model. So there are that we are sure because you can do like two human audits but with AI it's so cheap to create an audit. We have done so many AI powered audits that I I I don't even know the count. uh and they yeah often they they flagged like false positives but they were there they were still things that we tweaked uh that was mainly I think about the economic design but so we we're very confident because just the amount of audits that you're normally able to get is at most a handful but now with with AI you can keep on like in some sense it's fair I think to say intelligence has gotten so cheap for security analysis that you can really employ much more uh yeah much more review and and hence be much more um yeah certain about the security implications because beforehand you would need a team of researchers to really try to poke holes in these complex protocols and complex smart contracts but now that the bar has gotten down so much that it's much easier to find things yourself but also uh we see just in DeFi that there's now a wave of exploits being found because before the cost of finding the exploit was prohibitive but now the cost of of checking for exploits is so much lower.
Uh so in that sense we're we're very glad that it's much better to to take some extra time realize what moment you are in employ the the new groundbreaking tools and then launch when you you're very s sure that even the new model the GPT6 or or the new uh cloud anthropic model uh yeah that it will still stand that test because you just have ran so many uh so many security analysis that someone normally prompting uh as So as just a check will definitely not find something because you can do way you can go way deeper if you also have the background knowledge and and can steer the model. Uh so I think yeah that's that's definitely the winning combo.
That's one thing we learned is to have humanpowered audits with with AI. So uh we didn't expect that to be the story of the audits beforehand because uh in in the beginning of the audit process yeah they were just two human audits. didn't even talk in depth about how the AI tools would be used but it turned out looking backwards that that turned out to be like a major majorly important factor and I think it will be going forward security analysis for code will involve AI uh point blank I I don't think you can compete without using these tools >> is that an opportunity for BCH of course we're always trying to look for ways to get ahead and there's sort of a defensive version where we should obviously be doing good audits and so forth of projects that are launching on BCH to make sure that they're secure and we don't have as many some are going to be inevitable that's just software but we don't have as many big disasters or whatever is goes on in Ethereum and so forth but it seems more even not only a defensive opportunity but an offensive one which is that the BTH community could become experts in doing this kind of security analysis and thereby get traction in other communities that came to look for that specifically around UTXO's development, but maybe even just in general like it seems like a great time for somebody to launch a UTXO Defi analysis and review.
>> Yeah.
>> Company, right?
>> Yeah. agreed because just the the productivity you get with with AI is just so much higher. either you can compete on cost or on quality. But I think by idling metric if you if you really adopt these new tools that you can out compete uh people that are slow to to adopt them and as a yeah as a more general uh idea or thing that thing that comes to my mind is that not only are the smart contracts have a very high bar for security but of course you have other things in the ecosystem like uh like wallets like full node software maybe some of the libraries which power wallets. So there's a lot of surface area of important codes and all of them.
Yeah, for all of them you want good security. So uh there is also just opportunity for of course we we would prefer honest actors to to find any any issues and and responsibly disclose them. Uh >> yeah, >> but you can't guarantee that.
>> Yeah, you can't guarantee that. Yeah.
>> Is that a concern at all? Like I know I think it was FFmpeg um essentially like freaked out publicly on Twitter because Google I think was making a bunch of like issue like bug reports being like oh we did these AI analysis and found these issues and ffmpeg as far as I understand is just a volunteer thing. So they were like listen if you've got the time to make these bug reports put in the [ __ ] pull requests to fix them too. Um but they haven't had any of that. So there's a lot of hostility >> in the open source side. I'm wondering yeah is that something >> that you have had to deal with yet or is that a concern for a future?
>> Yeah. So uh with cache ccript because that's the the main open source project like yeah with with cashcript we have gotten some extra workload just because people can much more easily create PRs and then you want to you want to acknowledge like you want to give some feedback say oh maybe the ID is good or the ID is not good and then check is the code good is the code uh not good. So there is definitely some extra work because the the bar is is lowered and I think on the security aspect we should hope that all projects would have continued maintenance. Of course if things are not maintained then that's a problem on its own but if things are maintained then yeah my my call for attention would be for developers to to use these security analysis even for their library or their wallet or their uh their full node. Uh so yeah, as long as it's security sensitive to at least do a few of these these runs um yeah to potentially highlight because if if the developer with these tools cannot easily find it with a few days of trying then probably a normal person with these tools can also not find it. But if the developer hasn't tried then it could be that this latest cloud model might trivially surface on the after a minute 10 or or like half an hour of of it spinning around that it actually does surface some real issue and yeah you don't want that to be abused potentially yeah for because both for full nodes or for wallets or for libraries that could have bad yeah very bad implications. So my my call would be for all the maintainers of open source software or otherwise security sensitive software to do some of these checks themselves and uh yeah and to realize that that's kind of that your attacker has these tools.
So if you're thinking defensively, you definitely also want to run uh these checks at least to the minimum extent that a non-technical person could also just say, "Oh, create 10 instances for half an hour, try every service to attack." And you don't give any specific instructions, but then then at least you get maybe 10 10 agents to report back.
And I think yeah, so there's a few basic things you can do with prompting to increase the likelihood that something is found.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, if you get ahead of it first, it also saves you from having to then go through like AI PR >> and understand all that like Yeah.
>> Yeah. I agree.
[laughter] >> Yeah. It's so easy to generate text now.
You can easily send someone a whole Bible's worth of text. But yeah, ain't nobody got time to read all that if a human didn't even put in the work to to write it out, right? So there's now a bit of a weird imbalance. Whereas you would rather have something concise like even just give me the prompt that you put into the to to the LLM instead of giving the whole whole uh big report it wrote because yeah then then if you give a very big report and I'll just give the report to my LLM to summarize it or something. So that's silly to give too much too much text.
>> Okay. So that's the security analysis part. Was there anything else maybe that didn't, you know, result in like the publicly visible audits or delays?
Anything else in the programming, the launching? I don't know, maybe in the marketing you had to change the name. Uh maybe you can explain a little bit about what was that about and what was the process and lessons learned there.
>> Yeah, so indeed we rebranded. The new name is Peron USD and we're very happy with it. Um we we weren't fully aware of this beforehand but so uh yeah so now we have our own name that doesn't have any name confusion. So it's uh and also yeah also this this puts us in a good position so we can use it for any future products without uh uh because we fully fully own the name. Um but of course we wanted to to do a roll out properly so have it rebranded everywhere and so yeah we needed to create some timelines for that also update any text or graphics.
So of course that's a a bit of a process and then do the the announcement for that. to the Yeah, definitely the the rebrand was one part of the extra time we got and then um also because we got some extra time we could do some more uh I would say launch readiness or maybe like a hardening of of some of the aspects. I think we mentioned it in the one of our launch blog posts also. But we for example now have a film monitoring and alerting system. Uh like if you will you will sometimes see this on on on software development Twitter or X where they have these green and and red bars for to monitor for uptime. And so yeah you want as many nines as possible or like a 100% uptime would be ideal. Um, so now, yeah, we have internal things like this and alert thing when something might be wrong or needs you automatically get a a notification. So, we're very happy to have all these types of systems set up uh which you you want for for a launch otherwise you because if you're awake or you're not monitoring closely on the weekend or something, you still want to be uh yeah alerted as soon as possible. So, these are some of the internal things we built. Also we um initially we relied on some of the public infrastructure uh for example for a chain graph and uh yeah public uh while it is awesome that you can rely on on public uh instances of of like infrastructure we uh we inhoused all of our uh BCH related infrastructure um and and we can yeah I think the in the bliss talks will have a little more details about that but so that's also the extra time we took that's what I mean by hardening is that when you control the the full infrastructure then at least when there is something wrong you can fix it because you own it you don't need to message someone else who you're not even paying and and saying oh can you fix this or this or I'm having problems with so I think it's much better and also for for serious businesses I I would say it's just encouraged to to run your own infrastructure for many things >> and so now you have launched and like I said there's been no big disaster uh whatever on your mind you know it's always like no news is good news when it comes to launches right because you just I'm such an optimistic person in general but I just know from experience product releases and software like it's actually the opposite you're kind of desperately trying to avoid a bad situation more than you are being excited about you know a thrilling new [laughter] No surprises is good news when it comes to software development. So talk to us about the actual launch. Were you nervous uh when it was happening and uh in hindsight how do you feel about the initial roll out the initial reception?
>> Um yeah so if I if I can answer the first so we are super happy with the initial reception. We still want to get more people to try it out because I think we have built something very impressive also with the UX and with the new uh yeah with the new things it enables users to do. So it's a yeah we believe we have built a very useful product for for BCH users. Um uh yeah.
So, so one thing is to get even more people to try it out. But we're very h very happy with I think you can see it on on the dashboard that over 70 uh loans are active and over 110 loans have been created. So there's also some people just experimenting with borrowing and maybe then immediately repaying or just seeing how the flow works. Um yeah, we haven't gotten very positive feedback. So on that side, the launch all went smoothly. also it was only growing uh the yeah so that that's super nice to see uh and we hit our target so my my day one target was to have 30 loans created and and we we that was our internal internal goal so I was very happy to to see that that we reach that and then to see it yeah continuous continuous growth the next days because your day one users of course they they probably are the most excited so you don't you want their experience to be very good right you don't want them to be uh yeah have any kind of of trouble using your system.
Uh but for most people they kind of want to wait and see, right? You don't have to be a day one user. If you're a day 10 user, it will work just just as well or or even better because there would have been the first fixes and improvements.
Um so there there's definitely no rush for users to be first. But still we appreciate the users who on day one want to give their feedback and and want to test. Uh we did see of course users test it out first with a a loan of the minimum size and then feel get more comfortable with the UI. Uh yeah so so that was cool to see that because we were of course live monitoring these these dashboards also and then leading up to the launch uh the few days before I was not nervous even the day itself when I woke up I was not nervous but then an hour beforehand the nerves the nerve suddenly kicked in and there's nothing I could do about it. So of course we we were as good prepared as I as I know how to. So I would say yeah our preparation really went the extra mile on all extents also the smart contracts that we we talked about. Um and so there was it it went very well.
So there were as you said no major issues at all. Uh there was a small issue that was totally outside of our control but it's still a good story I think. So you might have heard about a CVE in Linux something with copy I don't remember the the full details but so there was a critical vulnerability in Linux itself. So if you host uh servers or like run VPSs then you should upgrade. So our cloud provider decided to upgrade our system for us which means of course your server shuts down and then restarts. Uh but all processes which are running then should also restart. So in that in that sense our launch day was exactly the day that this Linux critical vulnerability happened and required all service to restart it.
So I think we our uptime monitoring already had like 10 minutes or something where this this restart was taking place but that was the the only thing that happened and and that also didn't cause the website to go down or the top but it did there was some small functionality for for what it does. So yeah that's that's the one thing that that did surface on on launch day. You can never be fully prepared. I guess >> that's right. You never can. Nothing uh tests uh software like the real world.
[laughter] It's not AI, not internal testing, not test suites with 100% coverage. No, that's not how it works. The real world always has a way of turning up something. But nevertheless, it's gone really well. You have a very impressive TVL for just a newly launched project.
Can you explain a little bit about that?
Like what is your plan to grow the TVL?
Is it mostly just sort of not a coincidence exactly, but did you have a strong plan with people, you know, to initially test it and provide liquidity or have you just kind of let it happen?
How the market responds?
Talk.
>> Yeah. So, uh, so our launch day was on April 30th. So you can see that this graph started somewhat earlier. Uh so we did have like inequal initial liquidity provision uh yeah before we fully opened it. So just a few a few days before we we opened uh it publicly. So that's one thing we did too. So that from that bar you can kind of guesstimate what like see the the initial the initial coordination we did to have some liquidity uh on on launch day. Um then our plans to grow it long term. Yeah, we have we have many ideas. Um and indeed for a stable coin, one of the most important things is that it will will ask like how much value can I actually convert to this uh without maybe having to do a loan or something. I just want to convert my BCH. Maybe I think the price will be be going down for a period. So I want to uh hedge and have in a stable stable asset. Um so so we we do think liquidity is super important or like the circulating supply is is very important in some sense the TVL metric is less important uh for people who who want to use the stable coin and the amount circulating.
So here, yeah, it's went up to 450 Preon USD in circulation. And so I think, yeah, I think we a nice round number would be 1 million uh as a as a as a target for Yeah, I won't name any dates, but like as a next target, that would be definitely a milestone.
Um, and yeah, go ahead. I guess I'm just trying to get a a sense of like you said I'm sure you know you would have had some initial plans to kick things off but then just the same as with the testing you never know until you put it out there in the real world. So like do you feel you have a good sense not only from the numbers of the TVL of the protocol itself but also like your response on social media or feedback that you're getting from users or information you know from Wales or behind the scenes you have a good sense of how much it's going to grow or do you wake up every day and just see what's the TVL today? Wow like [laughter] I wasn't expecting that much traction.
Well, it was the the first few days it was really just checking the the TVL ourselves uh and and seeing yeah and seeing the results. Um yeah, a few things we we did know in advance. So, of course, Peron USD is not integrated everywhere yet. So while it is immediately useful as as a stable uh as a stable currency, it's we expected that the first people who would use it would probably do this do staking. So both staking in the Pon USD stability pool, but then also staking on cold so to create a pool AMM deck with yeah both assets. So both the BCH and the the PUSD and and we did see that I think yeah both of these staking methods combined are over 60% or something I don't know the the exact numbers but over 60% of all the the peron USD is locked in these two staking methods and then uh one thing that was also clear from initial users is that there was quite a lot of demand for for leveraging up under BCH because yeah you cannot buy things directly really there's no token to token pegs so you cannot buy many things with peg on USD so what people want to do is they start with BCH create a loan they get a PONUSD but then get BCH back so they can they lever up and so the first thing uh quite a few users did of course it's totally valid is to create a loan get the USD go to the cold index and uh sell it there so there was already some uh yeah some some selling pressure but then other people saw this and started buying on on codon. So there was a lot of codon activity with I think you can see this by the amount of trades and by the APY.
At some point I saw that it said if this continues there's 90% APY or something.
I don't know how they calculated but I don't I thought that was funny because yeah it's it's a high it's such a high number and I think it's because of the the high volume. That's at least my my understanding. Um so yeah that that we see a lot of people do is to borrow then then use it at codon.on. really the coder on integration I think turned out to be one of the important factors of the like the first week or 10 days of the protocol being live that yeah people could actually trade it on on the decks and that that indication was was nice also when there was like a bug or something in the chart of codon people immediately noticed and started posting a new oh this is weird it it posted at at midnight or something the price was $600 but it was like a a weird data bug but people were monitoring uh the chart very carefully because yeah of course it's always in a tight band when it's being Irish around $1, but yeah except for for yeah so people people were looking at that a lot >> amazing and yeah congratulations because you have hit number one on cauldron I believe maybe just today I don't think I checked yesterday but a couple days ago it definitely wasn't so you are now number one and shout out to fish who said on the Christmas episode that was one of his predictions if I remember right that uh Parryon would uh flip MUSD to hit number one on Cauldron. And I was actually a little skeptical at the at the time because, you know, the initial um boost can be good, but also, you know, if a project has been out for quite a while, it can take uh a second entrance in the market to gain a little bit of of relative traction. But you've rocketed up the leaderboard there. What are your plans for continuing the momentum of the strong launch like you mentioned integrations? Is it going to be doing more of that? Is it going to be trying to get capital from big whales?
Is it maybe going to be going to more conferences or getting out there somewhere else in the scene? What's the game plan for growing Parryon from here?
Um yeah I think the the initial thing that's on on our mind now with the feedback is of course we want we want to address the feedback right so we now have a lot of user input where before you launch it's only the team and if you looked at it for so long maybe you cannot see the the flaws in it anymore so yeah we're very h happily taking and and noting all all feedback and making those those improvements. So some things we already have gotten to the lowhanging fruit some things are yeah for the next weeks and uh for example a thing that's been already requested by multiple users who want to do more of the APY comparisons is they want to see very detailed how much they are earning for example per day and and see like charts of this and APY estimates and maybe oh why are you estimating in this way I want maybe want multiple ways to look at either historical trends or just uh based on the current loans or something.
So there's multiple ways to do the APY.
So I think one thing is just representing um what what kind of the staking yield is and then they you off Yeah. And then because there's a yield on this it becomes an enticing product and I think we can do currently do better communicating clearly to investors what kind of the payouts and the yields and all these uh more financial aspects are.
So that's mainly for the people who yeah want to maybe buy Pion USD or something on Codon and then stake it or maybe who just want to create a loan at an interest rate but earn a higher interest rate staking. So uh then they then they start with BCH they don't have to sell so they still have access to the BCH but then in addition they also have the carry on USD and the yield. So there's a few ways uh you can you can actually earn the yield. So that's also something that we need to explain to users. you have a product that's uh not trivial to understand because you have the borrowing, you have the staking, you have the redemption. So there's three uh three aspects which we have colorcoded and each given their own logo. So quite a lot of effort went into making it uh understandable and digestible on on that layer. Also in the UI you have these three actions borrow stake redeem and you can also see if you have any uh loans or any stakes or any redemptions ongoing. You will see that also clearly in the in the UI. So uh yeah, so that's for the data representation. But then people have questions. Okay, now now I know how the UI works and I know what this product does, but how can I use this for a financial strategy? Like how can I for example borrow and then stake or would I would I sell my BCH on cold to buy P USD and then stake that? So there's a few of these strategies, economic strategies that we want to communicate better and maybe do writeups or guides about.
Um yeah, so that's that's mainly about the staking. But then there's also people who just want the stability and and so they might wonder how do I just what is the best way to convert from paron from BCH to Paron USD and so yeah we'll also make guides about that whether yeah gold is the best or what the slippage is or how they can can structure it and you definitely want things to grow um on both sides. So if you only have people who borrow they kind of bring a lot of bonus USD in circulation and then the whole mechanism is two designs. I think we we will have a visual of this later but >> yeah let's uh let's put this up so you can walk us through it. This is actually very helpful that you put there trying to explain how exactly the stabilizing works with these uh feedback loops. But even myself looking at it for quite a while I still felt a little bit overwhelmed by it. So perhaps you can break it down.
>> Yeah. So um what what this is specifically explaining is why would the the stable coin be worth uh why would this cash token this specific cash token why would it be worth $1 when we know that all things are volatile against each other, right? So the the dollar is volatile against the yen or the the the British pound. So so why is this token uh pegged to to the dollar? And so if you take um trusted stable coins, centralized stable coins, the easy explanation is they're redeemable for $1 in the bank. So the crucial aspect of for example why a tether or a USDC is some parties can redeem this token uh for a dollar in the bank and because they can redeem it for a dollar in the bank, they value it and arbitrage it to a to a dollar. Um so this redemption aspect is crucial and so PONUSD is a decentralized stable coin. So it's collateralized by Bitcoin Cash by BCH and but it's also redeemable. So if you redeem what what do you get? You get a dollar worth of BCH. So you still get the underlying asset but it's not a yeah it's not a traditional finance uh integration but instead it's it's the the native u currency of the blockchain.
So you get $1 weight of VCH back. And so the interest rates and the redemption they both govern this this process. They help govern this process. Um and to explain this I think it's handy to to start from a case where many people want to borrow PON USD first. So if there's many borrowers they bring more Pon USD P USD in circulation. And so you have a lot of uh in economics you have a lot of supply uh but the demand stays stays constant. And so this would put a pressure if you uh in economic terms yeah would put a downward pressure on the price so that you expect the price to decrease but of course it's a it's a stable coin. So you need to think about how do these supply and demand mechanisms on the markets how do they correct it that themselves. So in the case where you have a lot of borrowing and a lot of extra PUSD in circulation ideally the demand also grows. So that's the stable way to grow it. You grow both sides. you go the the P USD in circulation but you also go the demand side so that's the sustainable way to grow it but of course it's markets and people may buy or sell whenever they want so for example if someone uh decides to yeah we we can follow this graph so if we say there's a lot extra supply so then the price price decreases so we would be in the bottom half of the chart we would going below a dollar and then certain mechanisms kick in so again a lot of borrowing happens S a lot of Pon USD is brought into circulation. The price goes below a dollar. What do people do? Oh, they see a price goes below a dollar. Well, now I have the redemption mechanism. I can actually go go to the contracts and say I have this P on USD that I've bought for let's say 95 cents and I want a dollar worth of BCH. So that would be an easy arbitrage and easy way to make the the five cents difference make it back. So you have people who automate this. So um that would be the the first thing that happens is people automate uh start automating this and you have redemptions and the redemption immediately repays a loan. So im it immediately uh on the technical level it sends uh bar on USD to an up return. So some tokens are burned and taken out of the circulating supply. So immediately this kind of puts pressure back to to $1 because uh yeah you first had too much supply but now you're shrinking the supply again. So that's one loop that corrects itself.
But not only do you have a redemption, this redemption also signals to all other loans, oh there's actually a risk here. You can get redeemed. So what do all other loans do in reaction? So this is optional. They they don't have to do it. that we can already see today from even uh being 10 days operational that this is in fact what happened once we turned on the redemptions some redemptions were created against 0% loans and people started raising their interest rates so if you follow the the graphic the chart is there there have been redemptions there's a higher redemption risk and then people start raising their interest rates okay so what does higher interest rate mean it has two effects so the IO splits splits in two and maybe that's also why it takes a few steps to follow it is there multiple effects so of course if there's a higher interest rate for the next guy this means it's just more expensive to borrow so less supply will come into circulation just because they think oh I wanted to borrow maybe at 2% but now I see the going rate is I don't know 4% so I prefer not to borrow yet so that's that's one effect of the higher interest rate but more importantly is that immediately once people start paying higher interest rates the boom pool is ear earning higher APY. So everyone is saying oh this pool maybe it earned 7% APY but now it's earning 9% APY. So actually I want to stake more and so it's increasing demand. And so if you again think about the demand and supply sides you kind of uh lower the supply again and you boost demand. So you do kind of everything to push the price back to a dollar. And so this is the economic system the economic mechanism on the downward side. So we we discussed the lower loop but if you think about it the same logic can be applied on the loop at the top.
>> Yeah, it's just the same thing in reverse. Okay. And like you said you've already got some initial data that this is working. Can you give us any I mean I'm sure some of it would be available on the stats dashboard but can you give us any indication of that? like what did you see the price went below $1 to 99 or 98 cents and then you immediately saw a spike in redemptions. What happened?
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, uh one more thing uh on top of this chart is of course once you have a a solid economic system, you also just have expectations, right? And so in for stable coins, if you call it a stable coin and it trades at $1 for a while, people expect it to be worth $1.
So just some people will will buy it and think it will go back to $1 even like there in all these stable coins just because of expectations. If there's expectation it will go to $1. That expectation already itself strengthens the the peg. But of course as a new stable coin you cannot rely just on expectations because if you would start marketing like oh this is worth $5 $5 then would it suddenly be worth $5? No of course not. So expectations are only work uh yeah only go a certain extent and to tie this into the the price data.
So we have just seen people uh buying on cold if they see oh it goes a little below a dollar I will already buy because we enabled the redemptions I think on on day seven. So people before then they couldn't immediately do this this loop. They they knew oh if you wait two days then I can create a redemption and presumably that's what some did right if you apply it 96 cents or something and then you can redeem for a dollar then you you you just had to wait a couple days. Um so I think that that those are the two mechanisms we already saw. We saw people waiting for the redemptions to activate and to then create the redemptions and we also saw the expectations. People say, "Oh yeah, we we have some understanding of the system and how how the redemptions and and how it will go back to a dollar. So I just buy now and sell when it's back at a dollar. I don't even have to use any redemptions. I just uh trade the volatility of the like there's more volatility, but of course if it's below a dollar, there is some volatility.
>> And when it comes to the staking, can you explain that part? Because I understand that if you put your cash, you put you put your parry on USD and your BCH into a liquidity pool on Cauldron, then you're earning money on the swap fees that people who are swapping from PUSD to BCH or back are paying a small fee and that's going to the stakers.
>> What about the staking pool for the sort of native staking?
>> Yeah. Um so so to add one more thing to that explanation is these two uh ways of staking they will probably have even uh they will probably have different uh APYs right even when the market matures just because they have different uh risks. For example when you stake in coddron you need both assets because you're creating a pool and that's already one difference. So when you stake in the native paron USD stability pool you only need B USD right? So you only need uh you don't need any BCH to to stake. Also when you stake in an AM deex you have risk of impermanent loss.
This is just the price ends up being different. So the your pool what balance it has of the two assets it shifts over time. And so yeah this this can have economic impact. So you you may not prefer to have more of the one asset than you had before and less of the other assets. Um so yeah that's the risk with AMM Texas. And so then now to properly explain the stability pool. In the stability pool what it does is it creates liquidations. So we talked a lot already about redemptions. The second important uh factor in this whole decentralized stable coin is liquidation. So if someone creates a loan they overquolateralize with BCH.
But it's important that it's always over collateralized. So at some point if the BCH price is volatile then there would otherwise be a scenario where the underlying BCH couldn't cover the if there's a price drop in the BCH dollar price that the underlying BCH wouldn't be worked enough to cover the the debts.
So of course the system wants to avoid that. So the liquidity V2 protocol it says oh when you go below a threshold you're automatically instant liquidated but there has to be some funds available to process this liquidation. And so that's the stability pool. So it has a it's called stability pool also because because it does this right it guarantees the stability of the whole system the working by liquidating bad loans which go below the which are not properly over collateralized.
>> So do you put PUSD or BCH into the stability pool? It sounds like you put BCH into the stability.
>> So uh so if you think about what a liquidation is is there is PUSD debt. So there the loan has debt because the PUSD is in circulation. So the the corresponding is that but it holds BCH assets. So if you're liquidating you can take the BCH assets but you have to repay the debt. So you're doing you you need P USD. Um so so one step back the the stability pool it only holds P on USD uh to start with and then it liquidates. So it's it spends Peron USD to repay a loan's debt which is about to go become a bad loan and then you take the collateral um the the stability pool takes the collateral. So it ends up with BCH. So then it holds both PCH and PON USD but only converts uh one way. So it only spends PUSD the stable coin and earns BCH. So if you have payouts APY that is in BCH terms uh because the interests are paid in BCH and any liquidations are also in BCH >> right so so where do people make an APY on the on the pool then >> so the APY comes from the interest payments uh 70% of the interest payments paid by the borrowers is paid to the pool um and so here in this I think we have diagram still up and so the higher interest rates paid by the borrowers are paid to the pool. So that's why a higher interest rate becomes a higher yield for the stability pool because it's just directly paid. 70% of all interest go to the go to the stability pool.
>> Um >> and then people can make that money if they pull their stake out of the stability pool. They also just like an LP on a on a DEX, right? They get their share of those interest rates.
>> Yeah. So you don't even need to uh you don't even need to unstake. So we have a system with we call it epoch. So that's just a the equivalent of 10 days but it's measured in in blocks. So every 10 days there's a payout by the stability pool and this payout you need to claim it. Um so so let's say you have stake for one month. Uh that's yeah that's let's say four weeks. Um then you will have four but it's sorry it counts in 10 days. So there will be three payouts because of 30 days. So there would be three pay payouts waiting for you uh to claim and these are BCH payouts. So you earn your APY in BCH and you would see them of course in the UI. So it would be very very easy to claim but so they're not automatically going to your wallet.
Um and that's we have some ideas. So that's if you ask what's on the road map, we have some ideas for how to further improve that. But so currently every 10 days all stakers will will be able to claim or like get their BCH payouts. Um and the risk because I do want to I mentioned the risk on the the impermanent loss side for a codon but the risk here is you put in the USD. So let's say you have 10,000 peron USD uh but some portion like the stability pool spends 10% of its funds uh on liquidations. So then 10% of the Pion USD in the pool is converted to BCH. So you receive your normal interest payments in BCH, but if you want to withdraw afterwards, you would only be able to not withdraw uh 10,000 but 5% less. So you would have yeah the same the same percentage that I just said. uh you would the same amount of funds that the um stability pool spent the same percentage you would be reduced by but you get compensated by BCH so you don't lose in dollar terms but you are converting assets um so that's the risk if there's a lot of stability uh a lot of liquidations by the stability pool you get uh converted from your stable asset to partially BCH and so you get a mix back you get mostly your st your your fix assets but then the the compensating liquidation BCH did did I do a good job here?
>> Yes. Well, I'm still sorry because there still seems there's still some because if the BCH price is crashing, right?
Yeah. And like you said, there's been a lot of liquidations. Then at the time that you come back, you're trying to redeem your 10,000 and let's say you get back 9,000 >> and then you would get back some BCH as well, but the BCH wouldn't necessarily still be also worth a,000 P USD because the BC price has gone down, >> right? Okay.
>> Yeah, you put the risk. So you Yeah, you would have volatility risk on the BCH.
So it kind of depends. Did the liquidation happen at the bottom of the candle or at the top of the candle?
Right. So if you have a downward candle, if it happens in the beginning and it crashes further, then yeah, then you would take on that volatility risk. So you actually took the took the bad BCH price. But if it happens at the bottom of the candle, so which some often happens with liquidations is they're at the very bottom then any you would likely have upside. Yeah. So you take on volatility risk >> and that also depends a little bit on not only when the liquidation happens but when you notice obviously the time the liquidation happens is when it happens but you're not paying attention to your PUSD. You're asleep you check in a week and then you're kind of like oh wow the price has pumped or it's fallen or whatever. I thought I was in PUSD but I'm not. I was in BCH.
>> So that's yeah that's the risk. So it's not Yeah. So important for me to say it's not a savings account in that it's risk- free. It's not risk- free. Um, so it also has a better API just because you're taking on risk. Um, so yeah, but for for for some people they understand that this is the risk they're taking and they understand that uh how much they expect to be processing liquidations and how big this volatility risk scheme. So if the APY more than compensates this this risk then uh yeah then it's a good deal. So that this is this whole stability pool and the redemption mechanism. So the things I spend a lot of time talking about are also the important things that are different from Moria. So you asked earlier what's different. So yeah, these are complex mechanisms, but so they they're different. And so this is how it works in in Peron USD.
>> And you said 70% of the interest payments which comes from people taking out these loans to get par in the first place are going to the stability pool.
Where's the other 30% go? Is that how you make money?
>> Yeah, it's going to the team. So it's the the protocol fee. Yeah.
>> Right. Okay. Excellent. And between all of this, it sounds like there's a lot of transactions happening. You have to do the parody to uh take out a par loan.
You have to make a transaction in order to do a redemption. You have to make a transaction. In order to put it into the stability pool, you have to do a transaction. In order to do a liquidation, there's transactions. In order to pick up your funds after the liquidation, there's presumably a transaction. Yes. In there and that's all just system transactions let alone people I need to pay you so I'm going to pay you some parody USD or parry on USD right so it's like a lot of transactions >> yeah the goal is definitely that you can see it in the transaction count so uh one of the things people immediately noticed it was Bitcoin cash artist so he's also monitoring every transaction on the blockchain maybe but so he noticed that there was a contract making regular transactions uh each 10-minute interval and so that's we have a price contract of course which needs to inform the other contracts of what the current price is and it uses the general protocols oracle for these signed price messages and so but it makes a transaction every 10 minutes and we don't have one UTXO on that address so it's not like a bottleneck but we have multiple five UTXOs deployed on that address so every 10 minutes you will see five transactions keeping the price in sync synchronized of what the oracle messages that are being produced so just From that alone, you already have like a steady heartbeat and then there's all these other Yeah. system transactions that you're just scared.
>> That's amazing. I'm really interested to see how that plays out and it's something that the BCH community needs to do a better job of honestly which is that for the last several years despite BCH improving on a lot of fronts right we've [clears throat] improved tons in terms of our promotion in terms of our uh protocol in terms of the tooling in terms of the wallets now in terms of the DeFi like everything is getting better but so far we still haven't seen a large sustainable uptick on the actual blockchain in result of all of this work. But now that people are getting around to delivering these more advanced apps, the more that grows, the more it will flow through to transactions, right? That's the >> Yeah, that's concept.
>> Yeah, I agree.
>> Yeah. And I'm just I'm very glad to see this because I don't think we could go another you know couple of years just being like it's coming it's coming you know it's like when when is it coming but this is surely when we're going to >> and also one extra thing is that we can already see on many of these more m mature DeFi ecosystems is it opens so much uh automated trading right so you have these IBrash opportunities that will be automated but once you have more than two dexes or these dexes can be automated or once you have more than one stable coin, right? So you have two stable coins, you can start arbitrageing between those two. Uh so so just the yeah the fact of the economic arbitrage the automated trading I think it just needs to cover the transaction fee for it to be economical right so as soon as there's a difference between two prices somewhere and there's an automated bot watching as as as soon as it can cover the transaction fee it will make the trade even need it's to make like a half of a cent or something. Yeah.
>> Yeah. It should be really nice to see the transaction volume growing over time. And that was actually one of the interesting things that I also noticed like you mentioned that when Paron was listed, it also built up uh more volume on Cauldron, not just for Paron, but for other pairs as well too because people went to Cauldron to trade it and see it there and so forth. and then they thought, "Oh, well, maybe I'll also just buy some of these other token, you know, attention breeds activity, right? So, it's actually really cool to see the network effect of BCH projects starting to kick in like that. And it's going to be easier and easier for people who are launching a BCHD5 project this year or next year. They're going to have more and more of that infrastructure all the time. So maybe you can give me an update on where you're feeling about that, but also just about the infrastructure. I know you've done the work with Paron with Seline. We've made some tweaks and updates so that that would work smoothly. You've been rolling out upgrades to cashize. We now have the ecosystem starting to switch over to like Wizard Connect instead of wallet connect. There's tons of work going on there and Paron is driving part of that.
Wondering if you could speak to some of that work.
Yeah. Um so so definitely you want your uh wallets to be compatible with your DAP and so currently all cash tokens wallets also have a way to connect and that might not always be true. So if we if we expand the number of wallets which have cash tokens then there might be difference but so for now uh yeah most all wallets also have a way to do wallet connect. So we definitely supported wallet connect and then visit came connect came up and the big improvement from visit connect is that it supports HD wallets in a better way. for B connect the way it's designed by P specification is you connect a single address uh which made the specification much easier and and had some advantages but of course if all the all the important wallets were HD wallets uh with the exception originally of of cashiz which originally only was single address but now also as HD wallet support uh but then suddenly users need to know on which fund which funds they have on which address and so the user experience becomes that they often have to send first to themselves just to to have it all on one address and then only then connect that address to to DAP and have it show up. So yeah, I'm very glad that we uh when we launched that there was a wallet connect generally available and then for if you click the pay taka wallet that it had a maybe it needs to one of the slides it has a visit connect um visit connect also has a connection method um and then the wallet testing.
Yeah, so we tested this integration with the different wallets. Um, for now we have like we have written up a full compatibility page and I need to give a shout out to Richard on our team who will also yeah who will be speaking at Bliss as I mentioned. So Richard did a lot of wallet testing and he wrote up this whole compatibility page and reached out to the the multiple wallet developers. And so we found that currently the best experience is with cashize and pay taka but you can use other wallets as well. But then we have written up what what quirks you you might still encounter and then so we're working to to resolve this. So uh yeah hopefully this is work that if you're launching later this ecosystem will have figured out all the small quirks and and things like this. Um but so yeah for users it's just handy to see read something before they start so they can have an important opinion on the different wallets. And one interesting aspect about this is because we yeah I created cashize. So we were able to tune to work as as well as possible. So really fine-tune it to work with the dub and and handle any edge cases that we might notice and and handle all the wild connect quirks and things like it. Um, but of course if you if you have one wallet, not everyone will switch to the the one wallet. So you you want your uh users on all wallets to be able to to have a good user experience or at least all wallets which have some way to to connect because we didn't want to have a built-in web wallet. Uh yeah, we we want to kind of break that standard and and move beyond that because then you're just sending funds to our websites and you yeah, you shouldn't you shouldn't necessarily trust all uh all DAP websites to to handle your funds.
Whereas with wallet connect and visit connect, you get an explicit popup on your wallet you already trust and you can uh review it. So none of the actions you do on the DAP can ever spend your funds. the the thing it will do it will request something to your wallet and then you can take your time to review it. So you should never be worried that clicking a button will spend your money somehow. The most it can do is give you a notification on your phone or on your second uh browser tab with where your wallet is and that will ask you oh we got a signing request or a transaction request. Uh can you review this and then either confirm or or cancel the procedure. Uh so yeah, I like this flow because then it's clear what permissions the the DAP has versus the wallet. Uh never if you click any button will transaction be created from your wallet or something. It will always be in your wallet that you that you approve this.
Uh so yeah, we're happy with that flow but still need to work out the last queries on the compatibility.
>> Yeah. No, I think it's just great. is so great to see because the evolution of wallet connect and now moving on to wizard connect and now Parion has really set a new standard in how slick and easy to use BCH apps should be and hopefully we're going to see more about that at uh Bliss with the XO templates and so forth. That seems to me like that's going to be the story of 2026 potentially for BCH is the whole ecosystem leveling up like maybe 2023 2023 was like well we could add more DeFi stuff. 2024 2025 some of those pieces started to emerge and then 2026 is going to be like we're going to make everything start to be really slick. It just takes time to get that infrastructure, to get everything working well. And then 2027 will be like the future will start arriving like, oh, we're going to have quantum protection on everything. We're going to have more advanced privacy coins, you know, we're going to have DeFi protocols building on each other like stable coins are such a building block for other different tools. Yeah. That people want to make, right? So that's that's kind of where I see things going. So I'm just thrilled to see Parryon contributing to and accelerating that uh process honestly because like for instance we've benefited at Seline from you guys writing PRs in to fix things andor giving us uh tips like can you change this, can you tweak this and that's just growth in the ecosystem.
>> It's amazing to see.
>> Yeah. So thank you for saying we we raised the bar. That's really music to I will forward the compliment to to my to the team. uh because yeah a lot of hard work went into it. So uh yeah thanks thanks for appreciating it. Love to hear it and so uh yeah it is it is work that that has to to happen to get to a mature ecosystem. Also we are happy to put in extra work to to get cash tokens more more broadly adopted and to uh for example as you said it's a building block for the rest of the DeFi ecosystem. So we yeah we we would be very happy to work with more and more people to integrate this be it the stable coin mode like in Selen or some other way to integrate it in for example another market to have a tokento token pairs or some other way where uh where it would be handy to have a stable currency for for defy use. So yeah, that that UX really is on our minds to get it very good in the DAP but also in the wider ecosystem uh integrations >> and I guess it sort of remains to be seen. So I'm not expecting you to know specifically but do you have any predictions as to how it will play out in terms of the parody paron I keep my brain will click over eventually.
[laughter] >> Uh but >> you need to hear it a few more after its and the bliss conference. Exactly.
Exactly. I spent six months hyping it up as parody USD. Uh but in terms of like are you expecting it more to be used for personto person? Like are you expecting to see sort of merchant uh adoption starting to be quite keen to demand parryon USD? Are you thinking it might be used more in the staking and defy stuff? Do you have a specific niche that you're targeting there or even crosschain swaps? Maybe some integration with another chain that could either use Parryon or could swap it with their own stable coin. Do you have a particular direction you're planning to head in?
>> Yeah. So uh we we do so I think I think it's it will be mainly the currency of BCHDI and uh so so to power integrations with with for example uh yeah other other borrowing and lending or prediction markets or other things where you want like a different currency that that is stable in in value and also tokento token pairs would be so valuable because that would be general technology ology that we can leverage but then other other token pairs can also leverage it.
So it's would not be fully fully custom.
Um and and this the the defy side and of course includes the staking staking is such an important the APY aspect people can earn on their BCH because there's just a lot of whales who have this idle capital that's not doing really anything useful like of course they have it on demand. So the use is that they have high liquidity. They can always sell it and always use it. But if they know like I'm not touching that stack for another year. It's my cold gold storage or whatever like there's plenty of that.
And then it's capital that is not actively doing anything economical. And I think um activating at least part of this this capital that could be locked up for for a staking period and uh yeah considerate of of some of the risks. I think they would be very happy to earn these APY earn some yields. Um so I think that those are two things that we that yeah that we should really focus on and as a final thing just to grow the the the protocol in tandem both sides.
So to not focus only on getting as much supply in circulation in a quick time because that can put things out of balance and also not only focus on increasing demand demand uh because yeah the supply will follow but it's better if it's if it's I think thought about or you of course cannot plan these things exactly but you can guide them and say for example oh now we hey community it would be good to get some more arbitrage going or oh we we notice that actually the price has been I don't know often above a dollar. So now it's actually quite cheap to to borrow and yeah things things like this communication and encouragement but also for for the capital we have access to we can for sure make sure that the the growth curve is is quite smooth. So those are the things that are on my mind for for the future.
>> And do you have any plans for this is something that I'm just so excited to see. the ecosystem hasn't got there yet, but we only kind of need to get over this hurdle one time. Now that you have everything set up with Paron and you're able to test it and see that it's working, do you have plans to do parryon euro, parryon Tesla, parryon gold, parry on BTC, parry on any other ticket NASDAQ, you know, uh what's the potential for that to happen? So we definitely don't want to rush into anything uh else. So we also have not announced to be doing anything else. We first want to do one thing and do it well. And the US dollar markets have such deep liquidity and higher demand for US dollar stability that I think we are orders of magnitude away from uh like it it would almost be a a distraction to try to focus too early on for example tokenizing stocks or something like this because it's it's not exactly the the same and then only you also have only one stock. So then if you want to think about stocks, you would probably want to uh take the framing of to tokenize the whole NASDAQ or something, you want to take a little wider framing because once you tokenize one the Tesla stock, then people will ask, "Oh, why not this the upcoming SpaceX stock or the I don't know the Amazon stock or the Google stock." Um so so I I I totally get why there's clearly using demand for for more assets but for our team capacity I think we will focus first on getting deep US dollar liquidity and focus on the the USD market.
>> All right. Okay. I'm I feel like that's a bit of a shame. I would just like you said, I'm just so excited for BCH apps to because even just we're in the age now of everyone with their like Robin Hood app and stuff like anybody under the age of 40 probably doesn't think about buying stocks or investing in finance or anything as like going to their web browser and logging on to a used to have these like brokerage accounts with terrible UIs and stuff like that. and that still exists and older people I'm sure are still using them and stuff. But when I am out and about talking to people about cryptocurrency and stuff to the extent that cryptocurrency is an investment for them, that's kind of how they see it as being oh more like they might be stabbling in some stocks or some real estate trusts or something and then they maybe they have a little bit of crypto.
And so the more that BCH can facilitate that and you can show them look we have we have all this stuff as well but also with the benefits of cryptocurrency directly integrated into it. I think for at least for a certain segment of the population that's going to be a really powerful pitch. So I'm looking forward to seeing that. But of course one step at a time got to get everything working >> is just the fact that there's many ideas to to go around. So uh also I I think other other people or teams were thinking about so it will be interesting maybe maybe one team launches an a gold uh a gold packed asset and another team launches a stock synthetic stock and another team wants a euro uh integration or something. So I think there's there's definitely a room for for innovation. uh but to couple back to what I was saying earlier to from to leave testn net and to go to mainet I think it's now it's now actually real and useful to people but the usefulness really depends on how much how much is in circulation and how deep the liquidity is so uh of course you don't want to cash out uh $100,000 in a BCH trade uh to to fiat or to some stable coin and then notice that the liquidity in codon would give you huge slippage check something. So, uh, yeah, what we want to focus on is is really being able to offer solutions to to this that you don't need to have to think, oh, do I get USDC on on on Ethereum or something or do I use Tether on Ethereum now that you can use a BCH native uh asset, but we need the liquidity because otherwise people will still go to another chain or something. they would rather do I think the the bridging and to have proper liquidity if if if we don't have the deep market. So I think our main focus as for BCHDI as a whole should really be to ramp up our liquidity and TVL uh because if you go to D5 lama and you compare to other chains we we have a lot to to catch up on that front.
>> Any final comments on Paron USD before we hit another couple things quickly?
Um, yeah, I want users, uh, I want, yeah, so maybe maybe I said it in that sentence, but I want people I would like people to to give it a spin. Uh, at least just connect their wallets, have a few clicks around, see what they like, what they don't like. We're very receptive to to feedback. Uh, we try to fix things uh or or improve things if anything is unclear. Of of course, the system is has a bit of complexity to it.
So yeah, you might need to take a few minutes to to click around and to uh understand the different actions you can actually do in the tab. Um for example, one thing that's already being requested quite a bit is people want to sometimes just buy P USD. So we will add a cold button somewhere or some kind of indication. So that's definitely something we we will do and we know is outstanding.
Um, and then if I can refer people to anything, it's either come to Bliss or if you don't have a ticket, watch the live stream. I'm sure there will be interesting interesting talks there. So, those are the two main things that are on my mind for for listeners. I would refer them to to give it for a spin.
>> Yeah, good segue because I wanted to just touch on Bliss a little bit.
Obviously, I'm looking forward to seeing everyone there. And like I said, [laughter] forgive me if I get your name wrong or I don't recognize you or or something, but it's going to be an action-packed three and a bit days. One of the innovations that we are launching this year and we announced this week was the BCH Guru markets. So, we actually have a live prediction market as to what the attendees of Bliss will say about the one minute blocks fabulous upgrade uh chip from Bitcoin Cash or I'm very excited about this. So, the way is going to work is that we have this prediction sheet on the left. We'll have paper copies of that. Everyone will get a copy of that. will have a box that people can put their votes in, whether they want to say their yes in support of one minute blocks, no or unsure, I don't know. And then once the timer has run out on that, at the end of sort of day one, we'll crack open the box and find out what percentage of the attending audience are in favor of or not in favor of this chip proposal. And in the meantime, before we get to that uh point, you are able to speculate on the BCH Guru prediction market and try and put your own furu on the line if you think that sentiment is going to be strongly in favor of one minute blocks or against one minute blocks. And the part that I think is going to be most interesting to see is that this all interacts, which is that people at the event are obviously they have a vote, but they're also able to ask other people what they think. And they're able to go on the market and put their put their money in there if they have a strong sense of how things are going. And the reverse for people who are remote, they can monitor the markets quite closely. And then they can also try and message people who are at Bliss and watch the live stream to see what direction they think things might be heading in. So I believe this is a world first. I don't know that anybody has done anything like this, a crypto conference with a prediction market running, let alone one, you know, in anticipation of a decentralized network upgrade. I'm very sure that's a world first. Um, so we put this up uh yesterday, I think, or maybe the day yesterday. It's been the day before. I'm I'm losing track, but uh currently the very first trading had a very interesting yes was at 1.15 odds. So, and no is at three uh 3 to one odds. So a there's a huge spread which is presumably an opportunity for some arbitrage if somebody wants to start getting involved in that. I can't do it to maintain impartiality [laughter] but I was like oh this is a bit of a market opportunity. And secondly it's also actually quite surprising to me that yes is so heavily favored. It started at about 1.4 odds and has dropped to 1.15 odds.
What do you what do you what do you make of this, Matthew? What what do you think? What are the what are the odds that the Bliss crowd are backing one minute blocks?
>> Yeah, I'll need to talk to some people at the Bliss conference first. But uh yeah, I think I can do a trade here to to adjust uh at least the spread, but also maybe some of these these odds. Um uh yeah my personal opinion I think we talked about it uh in in back in December is I I think it would from a technical point of view I think it would be a good idea but uh is the community in support are you in support? Yeah. So that's an an interesting uh interesting proposition.
>> Yeah. So you kind of get your own your own opinion is your poll response if you're if you're there at Bliss. If you're not tough luck come along next time.
>> Yeah. It's like give the market some more info by saying my personal opinion, but then what what do I think the market will settle on? That's >> that's right. The That's right. So the market kind of aggregates the the chance of the community's opinion, which I think is really quite interest. So, so I'm fascinated to see uh how this plays out and whether this then potentially could be the way that all chips happen that we could I mean of course this is not determinative like it doesn't make a difference one way or another. There's no part of the chip process that involves prediction markets. But the reality is that if we have this market, people will be watching it and thinking, oh, you know, maybe this is more supported than I thought or maybe there's more confusion about it or less support.
>> So, so can I ask one question about so if you click a box the yes, no, or unsure for the the participants who attend like do they see do they already get some results or is it just like for the regist?
>> No, no, no, no. So, this is going to be we're going to print this out on pieces of paper. Everybody gets a piece of paper in your like welcome bag and you can just you tick it's anonymous to like we're not I mean you can if you want to uh audit it, you can write some graffiti or something on the side and then check that that's in the final results when we open the box and we haven't tampered with the box, right? But you just tick one of these three boxes and put it in a box like a a poll box, a ballot box, and then at the end of the the end of the day, we'll see what the >> Okay, so that's important, right? At the end of the at the end of the conference day then.
>> Yeah. Well, we're not going to open the See, nobody's going to be opening the box. Nobody knows until the market is closed.
>> That's right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
And this is So, my idea I mean, we'll see, but my idea is this is for day one.
So, we're going to do a day one sentiment poll and then I would also like to do a day three poll as well, so we can see if over the course of Bliss everybody's discussing maybe opinions have changed one way or another. But we can't open the the day three market until we've closed the the day one market because we'll need to see what is the current level and then we can do a second one. Is it going to be like higher or lower maybe? So is the the poll that happens at Bliss is just a poll, right? Whatever the the prediction market here is whether or not it's going to get locked in.
>> No, the prediction market uh well, I should have had a screenshot of that, right? But the prediction market is will more than 50% of people say yes. Will the majority of poll respondents >> Oh, so here's >> say yes.
What if I bribe bliss attorneys?
[laughter] >> Well, you can do that. This is our prediction. This is a live test of prediction.
>> Prediction market action.
>> You're very welcome to do that. But if you do that, your your risk of course is that news about that will spread around the event and then the odds will adjust on the market.
>> We might also have like, you know, competing bribes then.
>> Yeah, [laughter] that it's a free market, mate. You know, >> I have a lot of Furu tokens I don't know what to do with, and this might be a fun little exercise in chaos.
>> Yeah. Well, that's that's exactly right.
I'm fascinated to see how it turns out.
It's going to be, >> you know, live at Bliss, a world, you know, world first experience. We're going to see see what happens. I honestly have no idea but I'm >> so so one extra one extra thing to interject is so it's called the the BCH guru plus bliss 2026 Lea prediction sheet so the the sheet itself doesn't have the prediction right they would have to go to the to the app yeah I see >> yeah yeah of course yeah we've got the QR codes there so you can look at the actual uh >> markets I guess maybe this should say poll sheet maybe I'll update that so that it's >> so so that it's clearer. But uh yeah, I expect that people will be able to look at the market themselves and think of it. I mean, the market's already up, so people can look at it and get a sense of it. And we're also announcing this now so that people can think through it for a day or two. And then obviously we'll also explain it live uh while we're there so that everybody is clear. But I think I also I'm just so excited.
There's so many different elements to this in terms of I think it's very fun for the people who are at Bliss because you have a little extra power, you know, in terms of your opinion. You can also yeah poll people on the ground to try and figure out what's going on. And of course, yeah, people can trade the uh market either remotely or live in in person. So, >> I'll do a private raffle if you can prove that you voted yes to this. I'll maybe do like an EO out. I've still got that one BCH, the only one BCH ED out token.
>> Yeah, there you go. You're Yeah, you're welcome to try and influence the voting in in any [laughter] way you want. And yeah, like I said, >> committing crimes here.
[laughter] >> This doesn't impact the chip process itself. And obviously, it's just going to be a fun thing to try at Bliss, but then we'll see. Maybe if it goes really well, maybe BTH gurus will make a constantly running event uh for will, you know, one minute blocks lock in and we'll be able to see that trade over the time until November and potentially also for other uh chip proposals as well. The same thing could happen. Could also have markets for will this lock in, you know, this year or next year? And then you could see the odds of what people felt like for the, you know, the current year versus giving it more time to mature. I don't know. There's a lot of ways this could go, but it's an experiment. So, >> yeah, I really like it.
>> We'll see. Uh, Bliss innovating. I want Bliss obviously to be the most >> the only time I will be happy to vote.
[laughter] >> It's a voluntary vote. You don't It's a percentage. So, I mean, you can bribe people not to submit a vote if you want.
Um, but yeah, it'll just be be based on that. Uh, and I'm thrilled that we're able to continue to in like Bliss already has the Leila NFT uh tickets. We had them purchasable by an online market and now we've upgraded to being able to buy them with a, you know, wallet connect directly on the website, which again is something we're iterating on year over year. that will get better and better.
Now we have BCH uh guru markets, prediction markets live at Bliss and yeah, maybe maybe we'll have more things as time goes on. Uh quick mention of the packing list for anybody that is coming to uh Bliss. We just made a quick little checklist uh that you can make sure you know obviously bring your NFT ticket and have somewhere to stay, but also bring some BCH, wear some uh BCH merch. Don't forget your Jessica and Velma NFTts. We might have some small bonuses if you bring those along. And you can join the Leila's Only Bliss Telegram uh group at uh t.mmela lounge. That is another innovation that we have added. Uh so you can only talk you everyone can read it. Uh and in future we'll find a way to make it so that it's private. You can't even read it unless you're in there. But to write in there you have to verify your Leila NFT. So it is Leila's only in there. All right. That's enough about uh Bliss.
Although it is just part of a general trend that I wanted to quickly touch on.
Kalisti and Gang have been doing the BTC conference and also consensus in America and it's been quite interesting to hear their feedback from that that those conferences have largely been swallowed up into sort of tradi and tradi aligned cryptos such as Ripple, BTC, Bass, Tron and ETH. Um whereas the more P2P cash the whole point of crypto kind of crew BCH, Monero, Dash, Litecoin, um Nano, eCash, uh at least one of the two e-cashes, etc. is sort of more in that uh P2P cash vibe is not being heavily represented at conferences. And I even saw this other guy clouted. He said, quote, "So, I just rocked up to the actual consensus conf and my first two reactions is one, holy [ __ ] everything is so institutional, real world assets, stable coin focused, everything is centralized offerings like to an insane degree. Not a single actual decentralized thing I can see on at least initial walkound to holy [ __ ] [ __ ] Charles Hoskinson is working on another L1." [laughter] End quote. So, that's kind of the sentiment in the industry at large.
Obviously, like I said, Matu, you've been uh on the ball with getting on the stable coin trend, which is now rolling in the broader industry, but I'm wondering if you had any reflections on the potentially struggling P2P cash vision in the broader industry.
>> I think we even see this to some extent uh in the size the relative size of the decentralized stable coins which are more crypto ethos in that they are yeah cryptocolateralized. So if if you use these stable coins and you actually grow the the total value locked and the the the native assets that that needs to be collateralized for this token to be issued. Yeah. If you use the centralized stable coins, you're really just using uh dollars in the bank, right? So you're you're strengthening the the fiat system. Um so I think there's the and and as I said the relative size of these so tether and USDC I yeah far bigger than even as D which is now called sky or or liquidity v2 stable coin is called bold. So even the decentralized stable coins which I I like a lot and the the spirit and the ethos, yeah, they still have a lot of catching up to do and even though that the trustlessness and permissionlessness is way better than for the earlier today I read yet another report of how many tedics were frozen or confiscated or or somehow uh made inaccessible to the to the owners and I'm sure they have their explanation which they will non-transparently not disclose but uh yeah so so those I guess are my high level thoughts on the the different stable coins and how they relate to decentralization >> but are you feeling optimistic that the decentralized versions can win out over time is it sort of centralized is efficient and quick and maybe doing a better job as you know the world adapts to this new potential of cryptocurrency but decentralization is going to win or do you think we're in danger of the whole vision just getting swallowed up and being forgotten about through crushing economic force as time goes on.
>> Yeah, we're definitely in danger of the uh the in the original vision and and P2P electronic cash is definitely in danger. So I think it's important to to acknowledge that um maybe there is a scenario where the the big it stays the case that USDC and Ted are the biggest uh stable coins even though they are centralized and that's yeah what one of them has to to blow up or has to have some some kind of scandal before uh before the general market realizes the importance of of trustlessness and permissionlessness and and all these uh all these values.
Um it yeah it might be the case that that PFI only adopts crypto because the the version of crypto that they are adopting is is like yeah is the threat version right is the centralized exchange centralized permissions and trusted so none of I would say none of these words are the correct like it's much better to have the counterpoint trustless permissionless uh but yeah so so that's how I see It takes definitely a a fight I guess or like a a war on this front to to front threat fight to kind of take over crypto and only use it as the payment rails but still have their controlled system which I yeah which I hope is not the way it turns out but it will need a vigilant community or like a yeah vigilant ecosystem. It will take a lot of hard work is what I'm trying to say to actually make the original vision.
And I think we all realize this in Bitcoin Cash, right? But it's it's worth restating that it just takes so much work and effort for the by people actually more aligned with the original Cipher Punk vision.
>> Yeah. And this is something I wanted to touch on on the show a little bit because obviously we'll see at Bliss and I'm sure this will be a major talking point. But in our, you know, eternal quest as to how to grow BCH faster, I'm really getting the sense that being on the ground at conferences is going to be critical. And that's not something that the BCH community I would say has historically ever done a great job at [laughter] really uh among all the chaos of the initial split and then people fragmenting all over the place and then people just being simply like going to conferences takes a lot of resource takes a lot of time a lot of resources especially if you want to get several people there even though you can do some promotion of BCH or whatever product or service you're working on. So, it's not like, you know, there's plenty of benefits to going, but it's just not been a priority for the community and that's part of what has cut us out of the discussion in a lot of areas of the cryptocurrency industry. And for us to pull that back, it's starting to get to the point that we really need to make a more concentrated effort on conferences specifically on two fronts. One is hosting our own like Bliss and like others as well. And obviously, you know, you've got to run them reliably and then grow them slowly over time, but also to do more outreach going to these other cryptocurrency conferences and getting in people's face to talk about BCH because that just has such greater impact on them.
>> Yeah. So one thing that uh comes up for me is this question whether we should focus on for example this first quote has the that the conference is so institutionalized right and I think there's definitely those uh yeah those conferences for the suits coiners as as the term is now uh coined but so yeah there's also of course more underount or yeah probably niche conferences that's more aligned with this peer-to-peer cash alliance so what would you say in terms of resources if Should we pick out like the the smaller conferences which presumably are closer to the ground or like at what point would these institutional conferences make sense? Like I'm interested in >> uh to hear. Yeah.
>> Well, my take is well firstly I would need to go to I think a couple of these to get more of a vibe. Like I went to OP Next, which is basically on the smaller end of the spectrum. And I think the impact that we made there was massive between uh Jet and Kalisti and Jerry and myself like just having us circulating around there talking to different people etc. uh it seems to have uh made a significant dent in a number of you know influential people's thinking about BCH because what we all need to understand is that >> BCH is quite small and that for a lot of people they genuinely have never met like a passionate BCH person they might have been into crypto for several years they've even been going to conferences they've been going to meetups that blah blah blah whatever they might not even have heard one speak right that just our arguments or just our vibe. Yeah, >> exactly. Nothing, you know. And so then obviously there is definitely negative sentiment online. Oh, BCH is all bots and blah blah blah. Some of that is just like, you know, suppression and so forth, but some of it is just genuine organic people that are like, I've heard about BCH and everybody kind of talks about it a bit, but I've never actually met anyone. Like, is this even a real thing? Right? They're just genuinely confused. And so it's more important for us to get on the ground there. And then suddenly it only takes one, right? If you've never met a BCH person, then you think, is this some weird online scam?
Then you meet one, you think, oh wow, there are actually real people. Even if they think, oh, this guy's kind of clueless or doesn't get it or something.
Even if they have a negative impression of you, just the fact that they've met a real person will already, you know, speak for itself, right? And even more if you have a group if you go to a conference with three four people a that's more fun [laughter] but then b it also really is to them like oh wow they can see that there is an organic community going on right so I think we need to make a bigger effort on that in terms of bigger or smaller conferences my instinct is we need to do both but with slightly different strategy right so the larger ones you kind of want to try and track down the big money basically. I think that would be the benefit of those is >> you get there you run around and you you know that's the kind of place you can meet people who just have high net worth or they've got money or they're looking for something to invest in or get involved in and like maybe like Paron USD or you know you show them something like that and they really think oh wow you know I can get involved in this uh seriously whereas the smaller ones that would be more about trying to find the influential people in other cryptocurrency communities and talk to them about BCH see what reservations they have, see, you know, why they might or might not be interested. Like for me specifically, maybe try and get them on the podcast to talk about BCH, that kind of thing, right? So, I think probably it just depends on the on the conference what the strategy needs to be.
>> Yeah. And I think for the the real niche conferences like for up next would probably be hard but for some of the ones Kalisti listed like XMR-LTC and and those lists like presumably we could even have a speaker if you put in the the effort or like collaborate on building the conference to to some extent. So yeah, I think if you want to build an alliance that there's yeah, there would be a room for these smaller but at the Vegas conference or something. I'm less showing that someone could get on stage and preach the good word. Probably not like not not at this time at least.
>> Well, that's it. We have to build up to that. Like that's only going to happen if you go a couple times, you get meet the check the vibe, you meet a couple people, you're cool and interested, you know, a connection forms and then maybe you do come up in a later year as somebody to have on a panel or what like you just build that credibility >> slowly. I mean, you went to the eCash conference and had a great time there, right? So, it's clearly a beneficial >> thing to do. Kyle says in the chat, "Been on BTC since 2012 and all in on BCA from day one, but have no interest in a conference as I imagine it's just big companies and people trying to sell something. Where do the real builders hang out?" So, I mean, the that that's kind of it. Yes, there are people at conferences who are from big companies, and yes, there are people just trying to sell stuff, but there's also plenty of real builders. That's the whole point.
These uh events are hubs for people who are in the industry. Some of them might be at big companies, some of them might be at smaller companies, some of them are running their own thing, some are just finding out about cryptocurrency for the first time. They're there doing research. Like, it's just a whole mix of people. And the point is, if you're not there, you're not in that mix. If you are, you can find your way onto whichever people or connections or projects or whatever seem interesting to you. andor that seem, you know, um, welcoming to discuss with you, but if you're just not there, you're you're not there. It's that it's that simple. So, I really would say we do need to be proactively involved in it and not just trying to dismiss it as something that's for Suit coiners or not important or or some because it it is. It's just where the action is happening.
I don't know, Jet, do you have any thoughts? conferencing. You want to go to some more conferences?
Sorry about that. Uh yeah, I think I think it might also be beneficial to start going to conferences that have nothing to do with cryptocurrency.
Right? I said on the last episode that I went to the tattoo expo and I had gone to that same tattoo expo in 2017 and 2018 both as a sponsor and a vendor um where I was trying to onboard people to Bitcoin Cash and it seemed easier then than it does now. So like the the I think that 2017 hype of like normal people getting involved in cryptocurrency gave me a little bit of space on those first couple years. Uh, and I know that the tattoo artists specifically are pretty okay with tax avoidance, maybe a little bit of tax evasion. So, like so much of the industry is just done in cash. And uh, yeah, I think like like tattoo and piercing folks. I think things like um like imagine if AVN the adult video network awards or whatever was like yeah we've got I don't know any like there's massive industries that can really take advantage of this that we haven't made any inroads to that I think would be almost more impactful than going to other cryptocurrency conferences.
>> Yeah. And you just have to be there in person. I think that's really the the main thing like I understand that obviously BCH is a small b decentralized c quite geographically distributed and d not necessarily like funded by some huge spiggot of centralized money or something like a lot of these other coins where that's the kind of thing that they spend that money on. They say, "Okay, we're going to send people to all these conferences. Okay, we're going to pay to have a booth. Okay, we're going to, you know, pay to get uh one speaker who shills our project for 20 minutes or whatever. And the thing is, okay, we don't have that centralized pot of money, but we do still need to compete in that niche because if we if we're not a part of those conversations, we're just going to miss out. And that's what's been happening so far. And I can't fault the BCH community because there's been too many other things to worry about. there's been, you know, getting rid of all the internal infighting, working on the protocol, working on the wallets and the infrastructure, you know, starting to launch DeFi. Like, there's been so much stuff that has been worked on. It's not like we've been doing the wrong thing.
We've been doing the right thing, but we're now at a more stable point that I feel we can reach out into the industry to to kick it up a level. So I think everybody should definitely be thinking in those in those terms and hopefully we'll see a lot more of that. Bliss is a great start. Obviously everybody can meet and discuss at Bliss, but hopefully there's also some strategizing there about what are the is on the cryptocurrency or the other calendar and just how to get involved and really represent BCH there. You know, show up looking good with lots of merch, have good ways to follow up. like you if you go in with a plan, you're going to do a lot better, right? Rather than just showing up, oh, I like BCH. No, like let me show you these specific things.
Here's a cash stamp, you know, onboarding people directly, following up with them about what they're interested in. Like really just that sales and promotion element I think we could do a lot better on overall.
All right. Well, we're uh already a little bit uh over time, so let's wrap it up. We've got the quick meme of the week from Almas Dust, [laughter] one of the top VCH memeas that uh made this one this week. It's from iPhone messages.
Babe, $15,000 out of our checking account. Exclamation mark question mark exclamation mark. Is it what I think it is? With three little diamond ring emojis. And then the bottom half is uh of the meme is a successful 31.459 BCH uh purchased. Your assets are now in your spot account. So that one made me laugh uh this week for anybody with joint finances.
>> And so one on one if you want to take it a step further and then feel obligated to still buy the diamond ring, it would be nice if you can take out a loan against the BCH, right? So I see some I see some opportunities even with the meme if you uh if you are in that situation for some reason.
[clears throat] >> That's it. Buy the BCH. Uh well maybe you could uh stake it a little bit on Paron or you could uh take out a loan and then pick up a ring and uh yeah your girl doesn't even need to know that it's all financed in [laughter] a small round trip but in the end >> That's right. Exactly. Oh, well, a good a good girl will be in support of uh taking care of your financial situation first. Okay. And message to the community, Matthew, you know how it goes. Open slather. What does the BCH community need to hear?
>> Oh, I I haven't prepared one, but I'll I'll go I'll speak from the heart. So uh I I think it would be uh great for people to use like when when new uh products and and and dubs ship to give it a try, give feedback, say what you like and what you don't like. Uh and then of course say if you find things useful to share them um and otherwise uh yeah if you don't find them useful I guess not not use them. Uh but so we should aim to to build useful useful products. And so uh earlier today we in the in the chat uh we talked also about you and I Jeremy we talked about entrepreneurship. And so I really want to encourage entrepreneurship because um because yeah in some sense you have a lot of ideas how things ought to be in BCH and how things ought to make inroads here or there but it really takes as we said yeah years of continued effort to work towards the goal and I think that yeah maybe that's my most important message is that instead of only speaking to what you think is important to help build uh build it and entrepreneurship is like a great way to do something in a sustainable long-term way and also capture some of the the value you create and then have a plan that you can grow something have ownership and then manifest the vision you have. So uh for example if if two or three years ago we talked and I would say oh I I really think there should be more uh non-custodial financial services on BCH.
It's like a pretty cheap thing to say like just by saying it that that doesn't but that's that's a start. You first need to want there to be something and then you take the the consistent actions that help towards realizing this goal.
And uh yeah, I think entrepreneurship is a great way. Of course, the it's hard paving the way and I think in some general protocols deserves a shout out and respect for for paving the way with network upgrades, creating any hedge, creating like the first real uh non-custodial financial products on on Bitcoin Cash, but with even they would say on Bitcoin as a as a protocol and as an ID. And then yeah, it's up to us to take that even further like to make the the contracts maybe more useful or more complex or more uh yeah or invent these new things like like staking and and uh and borrowing and so new financial opportunities. And the the end goal of course is to make a useful product that really improves people's lives. H but it's a long road to get there. So um yeah, that would be my my overall message. Shout out to General Protocols.
Let's try to emulate their their success. Try to put the bar high for others and and realize the vision so it's not only cheap cheap talk, but it's actual real value created for real BCH users.
>> Love it. Okay. Uh shout out to our FundMe contributors. Our FundMe is still running. It's about 75% or 80% done.
There's a BCH podcast one and a Selen one which are both uh looking for funding. So, if you're enjoying the show and what we're doing, you can throw some sats in there. If you've never used fundme.cash before, there's an opportunity to try out another BCH app uh as a bit of a bonus. So, shout out to Majimalu, Eyes on the Ball, Molecular, the show we love at Cash Damps, use BCH for the win. So, mix a bit. I like big ins and I cannot lie. No op celebrating the devs, emergent reasons, appreciate what you do. Hope you all stay grounded in truth and reality, real money for the world and cash dragon essential work.
Thanks anybody who donates at least half of BCH can get on that slide. Our donators and patrons Ricky, Kyle, and HP and our sponsors, general protocols.
Check out bchbull.com.
Of course, you can find all the past episodes of the show, start guide, FAQ, and a lot more at Bitcoin podcast. Try out Selen Wallet at selen.cash cash and I'll see everybody at Bliss in a few days. Final shout outs, Matthew.
>> Final so my shout out goes to general protocols uh yeah for paving the way and and and showing that it's possible. So I think to a large extent uh people first need to know that it is possible to build a successful product and a successful company on top of BCH that that you can create like novel services that didn't exist before uh before crypto and and and Bitcoin Cash was a thing. You didn't have non-custodial financial services. So they really pioneer it and uh yeah and so it's up to us to take to take their example take their lessons and try to go even a step beyond and then who knows who will be the the next person who tries to to take it uh to try it try to take it even a step further. So I yeah my attempt really with Pion is to do my best and then open source the tooling and infrastructure for the next person and share our lessons. because more of our lessons will be in the Bliss talk and I hope people will take it and build their own stuff.
>> Jet final shout out.
>> Uh I'll I'll peg back on the general protocol shout out. I also have a shout out to Oper and Josh Elthorp for getting BCHD ready for the next upgrade.
>> Amazing. Yes. And so this is your reminder to everybody to upgrade your nodes in preparation for the upgrade.
And my shout out goes to Steve Thurman, Kalisti, Double Otats, Carl, and everybody else. Ken, who was at the uh conferences representing BCH. Steve has a really good video, a 13minute video that he did with some highlights of them uh walking around at the conferences, interviewing different people about BCA, showing them how to use cash stamps, a bit of the vibe, a bit of what's going on. And in that you can really see the effort and the work those guys are putting in to represent BCH in the industry and building connections and credibility and it inspired this uh segment we did about the conferences. I think that's it. It's like physical infrastructure needs to be a big area of concern for the next year of of BCH protocols looking good. DeFi is starting to emerge. wallets are in a good spot, but funding and conferences to me are are probably the two biggest things that I think we can do to uh level up our game at the moment. So, that's what I'm going to be focusing on. And just yeah, big shout out to those guys because they're putting in huge work to pave the way there. All right, I'll see you all bliss. Thank you all for listening. Till next time.
At 10, Donald Trump says the war with Iran was the last best chance to stop the >> interest with a name that was not spoken in last night's state of the union message. Jeffrey Epson thought backed by MIT and apparently Larry you will own nothing.
>> Bitcoin has been hijacked. There will be no real non-controlled currency in the world.
[music] [snorts] Bitcoin Cash on its path to global reserve [music] currency.
[music] Global currency.
I waited years [music] for this. I made myself so sick. Waiting for Leila to [music] come around.
[singing] Hate hijack freedom sound. Can't keep a bad [ __ ] down. Lea's [music] looking back in the town.
[music] I see the freedom.
Her 12 words are seeds of power. [music] [music] Toxic idols fly private jets in the flest [music] skies. Watch us down below as we die.
suffering [music] for sins that we never did commit. Turn around, pay [singing] your taxes to better files.
[ __ ] this.
I [music] see [singing] the freed of power.
They're coming [music] from underground to offer their world [music] so freing.
[music] [music] bank account's [music] got the final puzzle back. [music] >> In a separate email from Epstein sent to early Bitcoin developer on April 19th, 2014 [music] to misaryry right now. We declare that anything this man can see [music] of all their noise.
[music] >> I'm seeing the fre 12 words are seeds [music] of power.
When [singing] I come back to town, they're [music] terrible. [singing] currency currency in start building today.
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