Cuando el Amor es peligroso

Ajouté : 2026-06-02

[00:00:08][music] [music] [music] [bell] [music] [music] [bell] [music] [music] [music] Hello friends, a warm greeting from Atlanta. I am Dr. Alejandro Navarrete.

[00:01:54][music] Welcome to my live stream, our channel. I have 39 years of experience in the field of mental health. I am originally from Peru and here in Atlanta I am the clinical director [music] of the Atlanta Counseling Institute. I hope you enjoy this podcast, this presentation, and [music] that it will be beneficial to everyone. Welcome back.

[00:02:12]Hello hello. I am Itítalo Macha, I am a psychologist and couples therapist and I am also part of the staff of the Consulting Institute of Atlanta. Today we're going to talk about dangerous relationships. We're going to talk a little bit about violence, how violence manifests itself in relationships, and we'll definitely be able to answer the questions, right? Today, unfortunately, Dr. Navarrete cannot join us; he is in Boston at an international psychology congress, mainly related to the approach to trauma, and well, he will tell us more news next Thursday. So, today we're going to be able to talk about when some loves become dangerous.

[00:03:02]Many of the young people I see talk about their partners as "my toxic one," "my toxic one." So today we're going to talk about toxic people and see a little bit about how this gets out of hand, at what point these points start to become something that warrants concern. Okay, so, I'm saying hello to everyone who's connecting. Marley's here. Good day, Marley. Marta, who is also with us. It's great to have you here, Marta, from Colombia. Well, welcome, and welcome to all those who are joining us.

[00:03:43]I want to present some statistical data that are going to be quite frightening in this regard. Well, one of the most alarming pieces of data that can be observed here in the INEI sources, regarding the cases that have been registered. This is a little bit like a class I did a while ago. I've recycled this data, but on the next slide I'm going to show you some new data that isn't very encouraging, is it? In 2023, 146 cases of femicide were recorded in Peru, that is, violence directly against women. 146 cases in the 23.

[00:04:26]Between 2015 and 2023, 1191 cases were registered in Peru at the level of what implies the general population. What are the most common motivations when it comes to issues of violence, jealousy, and domestic violence? Uh, those were the main causes, right? In other words, this motive of jealousy, that my partner is going to be with another person, or when there is a family issue, issues related to parenting, issues where we don't coordinate, that is also part of it.

[00:05:01]65.8% of these acts of violence were committed by a partner or ex-partner. In other words, basically for all people who are married and in a married life, cohabitation is a risk factor, or well, statistically speaking, that's how it can be interpreted, right? In other words, the partner or ex-partner can be one of the key people where the aggression originates. However, something else that's taken into account, and that morning news programs report, is that sometimes these attacks come from people who are neither the ex-partner nor the current partner; they're simply people who wanted a relationship with the woman, they were courting her, and suddenly, when the woman said no, that she didn't want anything, well, here in Peru there have been many cases where someone got on a bus with acid and threw it in her face, and well, there are truly many terrifying things happening these days, right? Um, I understand that there are some countries where these news stories aren't getting much attention right now because they 're in the middle of political campaigns, and well, basically, they're two separate issues, right? One thing is that we're in the campaign, and another thing is seeing how the country is moving. Hi Mari, it's great to see you here. We're also saying hello here. That's great, isn't it? Now, some statistical data that is a little more up-to-date. I'm going to show you, I mean, data that I've been able to identify up to today, right? In 2024, two years ago, 48.4% of Peruvian women aged 15 to 49 suffered psychological and/or verbal violence.

[00:07:01]sometimes by her husband or partner, that is, cohabitant. We are talking about half of all women aged 15 to 49 having suffered violence.

[00:07:15]This is a fact that is truly profoundly difficult to understand.

[00:07:20]In addition, 25.5% of this population suffered physical violence.

[00:07:28]5.6% experienced sexual violence at some point in a relationship. This was cited by the Ministry of Women and Vulnerable Populations.

[00:07:38]So, unfortunately, for all of us who work with couples, all of us who are in this field as therapists supporting couples, the issue of domestic violence is something that will unfortunately be present and will be part of the consultation. Many times there are some people who will not realize that they are living in a violent experience until they come to the consultation. And when the therapist starts talking about what psychological violence, emotional abuse, and experiences of narcissism entail, and when the therapist tries to level the playing field, it will often become evident, "Hey, this was violence, wasn't it?" So, unfortunately, these cases exist, and these are the cases that exist and that have become part of the statistics.

[00:08:41]There are many people who don't report it, there are many people who stay silent, there are many people who are not going to talk about everything that is happening, unfortunately.

[00:08:53]So, when we're going to look at these experiences, the first thing to keep in mind is that the therapist has to be very clear because there are two types of violence that we're going to be able to see, and they are... I think the internet is failing me. They can also confirm here if they are hearing me correctly through the comments. From what you're saying, I understand that it is, but well, the internet here is sometimes a bit complicated, isn't it? So I was telling you that there are two types of violence that the therapist has to be able to identify when in consultation. Okay, the first type of violence is situational violence.

[00:09:41]Situational violence involves two people who have control and power over the relationship. There is no one who is subjected. Basically, they are two people who are poorly regulating their anger, two people who know how to hurt each other, and two people who unfortunately have poor conflict regulation and end up in a dysfunctional relationship. This is situational violence. Uh, okay. Mari, Mari is telling me that she's cutting herself. I'm going to try switching the internet for a minute so I can get a more stable signal.

[00:10:28]Okay, let's get on one signal or another so that this can be connected from here. It's sure to be cut off for a minute.

[00:11:07]Okay, I'm back again.

[00:11:11][laughs] Let's hope the signal stabilizes soon and we can have this experience over here, on this side, and that everything will be alright, right? In other words, can you confirm if the signal has stabilized and we can now see properly? I can apparently visualize this from here [snort], right? So we 're good from here. I'll also greet those who log on. Dulce here from Spain sends her greetings. Hi Dulce, it's great to see you here. Hey, it 's Oh, Alexandra, that's great, it's so good that you 're here. That's right, I know. Oh, you've had an experience like this.

[00:11:54]I believe your contribution based on your experience will be very significant here. So, as we talk, you can share a little bit of your story to help guide many people who may be going through the same thing. So, I was telling you that the therapist has to be able to clarify when there are two types of violence. The first type of violence is situational, where there are truly two people who are attacking each other, but they are two people who have equal control, equal power within the relationship.

[00:12:30]And the other type of violence is characterological violence. It got a little misaligned when we uploaded the slides. Characterological violence is a type of violence where the aggressor and the victim are clearly defined. In other words, when you see that there is a person who has total control and power, that the victim is clear, and that there is truly one person who controls the relationship and the other person who is submissive, sometimes even to the point of being very afraid of the aggressor, it is because there is truly a clear victim there. There is a clear victim. The other person has a type of psychopathy, that is, because they may have an antisocial, psychopathic personality type, and there you can clearly see that there is a distance and there is not a symmetrical relationship where both are regulating themselves poorly. When the therapist observes that there is characterological violence, therapy cannot be done, okay?

[00:13:39]Couple therapy is not possible. In the face of characterological violence, the therapist cannot do couple therapy. It is not recommended because many of the things and the environment that will be created in terms of security can be misused later by the aggressor, by the psychopath, to then go home and leave the victim completely exposed, and that will truly generate a very big problem. Well, in situationsal violence we can intervene and couple therapy is appropriate for people who experience situational violence. Well, in some cases, medication is definitely required. I mean, one of the two might have issues related to borderline personality disorder, or be dealing with depression, or have difficulty managing anxiety and distress, and medication is needed to stabilize them. But couples therapy is compatible with cases of situational violence and has had results, okay? And the results are favorable, the results are quite good, aren't they? And right here, for example, one of the things that Dulce mentions is, what is the profile of the abuser? No. Uh, Godman, because here we're going to need a theoretical framework.

[00:15:06]To begin with, the theoretical framework that I am going to cite today, which is the theoretical framework of Dr. John Godman at the love laboratory in Washington, in Seattle, is a limited theoretical framework. Okay? Limited theoretical framework means that this type of macro-level evaluation is not standardized across all of Latin America, but rather in a population of America, in a population of the United States where the study was conducted. So it's limited, isn't it? We cannot see it as hard data that is available to everyone, that is, it is not necessarily like that.

[00:15:44]However, there are some facts that Godman is going to propose about types of aggressors, right? He, in the love laboratory, could see that there were two types of aggressors, right? Uh, I'm going to put this here, I mean, they are the Cobras and the Pitbulls.

[00:16:02]Uh, here we're going to have certain indicators of coppers and pitbulls, but this is in matters related to what characterological violence implies.

[00:16:14]Okay, Dulce, we're going to go in there right now and I'll be able to mention all of that.

[00:16:20]However, it is important to clarify, to specify that when an aggressor is going to use violence in a way where he is going to instrumentalize it, that is, I am going to make use of violence, he will usually have three purposes. When I use violence, the primary goal is to intimidate, to make the victim afraid of me. The second aim is to subdue, to make the victim's will subject to me. And the third purpose is that I can control the behavior, attitudes, or limit the behavior and attitudes of that person. So, when a person is going to use violence, they have those three goals. I'm going to intimidate him, I mean, I want to intimidate him, to make him afraid of me, to make the person subject to my will and to be able to control his behavior. Well, that's a first point about what the instrumentalization of violence entails. This is a person who, with that power, will begin to make the victim increasingly afraid, increasingly lacking initiative, and as the victim's life basically begins to revolve around them, they start doing things to avoid upsetting him.

[00:17:43]I start doing things to calm him down. I start to do things, I mean, the way I dress, the way I speak, my decisions, everything has to go through his influence, right? And that sounds, well, hey, but that's normal, right? In other words, because it's about sharing influence, but he doesn't share this influence; that is, only one party has to be accountable, but the other party isn't accountable at all. So, that's where the power asymmetry begins to show.

[00:18:16]Good. Now, not all wounds leave scars, not physically there are some data to observe because all physical aggressions began with emotional aggressions, with emotional abuse. In other words, all physical assaults were always preceded by emotional abuse. What does emotional use entail? Threats, right? Causing harm, threats to break, destruction of objects, intimidation, animal abuse, reckless driving, public or private humiliation.

[00:18:58]All of these experiences, unfortunately, have been quite difficult, and it's important to keep in mind that, sadly, all the experiences of physical aggression began with experiences of emotional abuse, right? Now, not all experiences of emotional abuse are transformed. Not all experiences of emotional abuse lead to experiences of physical violence. However, all experiences of physical violence did begin with emotional violence, and that is a point to keep in mind to be alert.

[00:19:41]Okay, [clears throat] within Godman's study, when he observes characterological violence, he will observe two profiles that are definitely two profiles of psychopaths, right? So, the first profile he's going to mention are the cobras.

[00:19:59]The Cobras start the discussion in a belligerent, defensive, disdainful way; that is, they start the discussion with a lot of rage, with a lot of anger at its peak; that is, they start with, one could say, the sword drawn, but extremely high up. They are much more violent and aggressive with their partner and their surroundings. In other words, violence is not only found within couples, but also among neighbors and colleagues. He's a man everyone's afraid of, isn't he?

[00:20:35]Therefore, they show antisocial, psychopathic, criminal tendencies and aggression with high degrees of sadism.

[00:20:43]He's a person who sometimes even seems to enjoy getting into trouble, hitting others, getting into conflicts, and has had problems with the law many times, right? So, it seems that they are usually agitated or that they are about to have a heart attack, that is, as if they were too agitated. However, when one, for example, puts a pulse oximeter on them or begins to see what is happening inside them, their heart rate is completely balanced, they are calm, they may be brutally beating their wife, their partner and they are calm, they are internally relaxed. That's why Godman gave this cobra profile that name, because the cobra usually remains still before delivering the fatal blow, right? She stands still, she has a very peculiar kind of appeal that makes you just stare at that person.

[00:21:43]So he gave it that name, uh, as if to identify this aggressor profile. They are not attached or jealous, that is, they are not jealous of the woman, they do not seek excessive control, on the contrary, they encourage independence and autonomy. In most cases they have a rather chaotic family history. They have often been abused in childhood, and have a greater propensity to use or threaten with weapons, that is, knives, firearms, etc. And the main effect seen in a cobra's wife is that there is a decrease in the expression of anger due to the fear they have, that is, they lower the intensity of the anger. The woman has a very high level of fear, a high level of dread, and a great deal of sadness. In other words, the Cobra's woman is usually a woman who is depressed, a woman who is very afraid of him, and a woman who avoids saying what bothers her, what makes her angry, what makes her angry, annoyed.

[00:22:53]This is something that has been completely repressed, hasn't it? Because of his fear of the cobra, unfortunately, isn't it? That we could observe is the first profile, okay?

[00:23:06]The first profile of the Cobra.

[00:23:10]Hello, Yuri. That's great, that's great to see you here, brother, from Barranca, right?

[00:23:14]Dulce tells us, "How sad this violence is." So, it's actually a pretty tough subject, but it involves talking about it because therapists need to have all these skills and tools to know what to do, how to identify these points. But we've talked about the first one, let's talk now about the second one, the pitbull.

[00:23:36]Godman is going to mention that Pitbulls, which are the second type of characterological aggressor, remember, are insecure. These are people who are deeply insecure; they have a fear of abandonment. In other words, these people do create a type of emotional dependence on their partner. I mean, I need you to live, I need you to be by my side, I can't live without you. And it becomes a mix between impulsive and romantic, doesn't it? On one hand, they can be aggressive, they can be intense, but on the other hand, they are romantic, they are tender, they are present. So, when these pit bulls start attacking, their heart rate goes from bottom to top, it increases. It's a person who gets hotter and hotter and hotter until they finally explode.

[00:24:32]Unlike the Cobra's wife, the pitbull's wife doesn't seem to be as afraid of him. The pitbull's wife doesn't seem so intimidated.

[00:24:40]The pitbull's wife usually argues heatedly with them, that is, she confronts him, she gets on his level. They are deeply jealous. The pitbull is indeed jealous, controlling, he wants to control any possibility of an attempted betrayal, persistent calls, persistent messages, he wants your location in real time, well, I mean, everything that involves means of control, the pitbull is going to have it, right?

[00:25:13]Manifestation of attack towards the partner due to jealousy. In other words, as soon as he feels jealous or insecure, boom, he's going to start attacking. The marriages they enter into are unstable, and these marriages do have a high probability of divorce. The pitbull's wife does have an easier time leaving and going out.

[00:25:37]In family history we often find evidence that their parents were abusive towards their mother, unfortunately.

[00:25:45]So there are some differences between these two profiles. First, the violence that Cobra exerts is a much more lethal, much greater violence. Cobras commit more emotional abuse and therefore have greater emotional control over the victim.

[00:26:05]Unfortunately, the childhood of the cobras has been more chaotic and traumatic.

[00:26:10]The women of the Cobra are more depressed and scared.

[00:26:14]The Cobras and their women usually do n't separate. Because of that fear, it is very difficult to separate oneself from the cobra.

[00:26:25]Uh, cobras are more violent both inside and outside of marriage. So, for example, a pit bull is very violent with his wife, but when you confront a pit bull in the consultation room, the pit bull becomes tame, he's like a puppy, right? But not the cobra.

[00:26:44]You can confront the cobra and the cobra will start to push you, it will get face to face, it will be there. In other words, they are not all with this intensity, and finally, the cobras suffer from more mental illnesses, that is, they have greater psychopathy in this context. It's a pretty intense experience, the one in the cobra's profile. So these are elements to take into account, because when one identifies that there is a cobra or a pitbull or a psychopathic profile within the experience of violence that is occurring, it is important to clarify that in the face of these two types of cases, a therapeutic intervention at the couple level cannot be done, that is, unfortunately, it cannot. Remember that here, when there is characterological violence, the victim is clear, but the perpetrator has these two profiles, which are sometimes difficult to recognize. Warning. Ah, I mean, no, this is at a theoretical level, but when you have a case in front of you, I mean, I might say, "Hey, what is this? Cobra, Pitbull." So, in the end, within my evaluation as a mental health professional, I have to see if this person has total control and power, if there is a symmetry of power where this person exercises brutal power, uses violence to intimidate, control, subdue, and if I have a clear profile, that is, in a proper evaluation, remember that the evaluation lasts four sessions, in the session that I have with her, I will already be able to see the profile, right? If she feels like she's totally trapped, that she has no resources, no way out, no means of getting out. So, there needs to be a whole protocol in place for what to do with the victim. What to do with the victim? So, basically this helps academically, personally, to see what these perpetrator profiles might be, right? These are elements to take into account.

[00:29:08]Well, Dulce tells us here, "Someone who suffers from the Pitbull profile can go to therapy or if it is detected it is better to run away."

[00:29:16]Look, if there is character-based violence, couple therapy cannot be done. You can send the pitbull, the person who has this profile, to personal therapy. Yes, although unfortunately one of the things that research has shown is that there is no effective therapy in cases of psychopathic personality disorder. In other words, for people with antisocial personality disorder, there is no therapy that is effective to this day. Basically, the treatment revolves around empowering the victim and maintaining clear, healthy boundaries. and to put in place, including legal means, for protection. That's basically what happens in that context.

[00:30:02]Another question Adriana asks us is, do these categories only apply to men and are the victims only women, or can it be handled both ways? Well, within the study that Dr. John Godman mentions, it is the study, he has only proposed it for victims of domestic violence in women. That is, and this is revealed in a book known as "Men Who Abuse Their Wives." That's the book, isn't it? Um, the study he does involves placing an ad in the newspaper that says, "Having problems with your partner?

[00:30:41]Um, we can help you completely free of charge. Um, we're an institution. The entire population participates; it's a whole population-based study. The sample is collected, and within that sample, obviously, cases are found where the violence was directed toward women. There were no cases of violence against men. This was quite a few years ago. This study. Oh, in addition to that, one of the things Gman mentions is that while it's true there are cases of violence by women against men, the level of damage, the level of lethality generated by the organic difference, the physical difference, is that a man can physically inflict more harm on a woman. So, nothing justifies violence against women, but the damage a woman can physically inflict on a man in a hand-to-hand fight is definitely less, right? Um, no research is... 100%, meaning there will always be areas for investigation. There have even been attempts to investigate a population of men who have been mistreated, physically abused by their wives, but the population has been small. These cases exist, but they are small, and therefore, given the small sample size, there haven't been any conclusive studies.

[00:32:19]This study I'm citing is basically a study where male violence against women has been observed in a significant sample.

[00:32:30]Now, another element to consider is, what prevents a woman in a violent, abusive relationship from leaving?

[00:32:43]Why don't they leave? The first element is fear. Fear of what might happen, right? Fear that he'll attack me, fear that he'll kill me, fear that he'll hurt me, fear that he'll hurt my children, fear that he'll go crazy, fear that he won't leave me alone—fear.

[00:32:59]So, the first element is fear. The second element is... Economic dependence. Most women experiencing this type of situation are 100% financially dependent on their partner, which significantly increases their subjugation.

[00:33:19]When, despite everything, the woman continues to love the abuser—that is, when affection remains, when a shared experience persists, a desire to stay with him— and when, or rather, when a traumatic bond exists, when we talk about a traumatic bond, I will always remember the case of a woman whose father beat her mother, her father was violent with her, her brother was violent with her, and when she met her husband, she met him because one day she was walking, her brother started attacking her, and the husband appeared on the scene hitting the brother and acted as her defender.

[00:34:00]So, because the husband appeared as her defender, she felt very protected by him and loved him from that moment on, right?

[00:34:08]Because he protected her. The husband also hit her, but not as intensely as she had seen her father hit her mother or her brother hit her. She, right? I mean, but the violence had been present for a long time. So, that's where there's already a traumatic bond, and well, within attachment theory, you'll see that there's a completely deep, disorganized attachment that needs to be addressed and discussed, right? Um, what do the women who truly left the experience have in common? I mean, all these women who left an abusive, violent relationship have elements in common. The first point is that it involved a heroic internal struggle. It wasn't so simple for them to say, "Look, you know what?" This is over, this is finished, right? In other words, it was a struggle, a long process, in which I gradually discovered, implemented, and said, "No, this has to end." They had to overcome enormous obstacles to reach the point of separation. They had to undergo quite strong psychological transformations, that is, everything that involves empowering her self-esteem, empowering her to experience what she deserves as a person. And the part that I have been able to observe within the consultation, the most difficult part is to abandon the dream of the family, to abandon the dream that things are going to work out as a family, to abandon the dream that the husband is going to change and that things are going to be alright, right? In other words, that's the hardest part, abandoning the dream that this will stop, that this will change, that things will be like they were a long time ago. These are elements that must be taken into account because women have gone through a whole profile and a struggle that is quite strong and quite profound.

[00:36:15]Well, it's not visible here, unfortunately it hasn't gone very well, but what things are needed in this experience for the exit to happen?

[00:36:27]Well, the first thing is that the woman has to develop a plan to protect her life and the lives of her children. This is the first part, right? I mean, listen, do you have some place that can provide you with refuge and that your partner wouldn't know you would move to? In other words, there are places, there are people who can provide that support, right? I mean, but hey, my partner ca n't know that I'm going to go that way, right? That's the very first element. The second element is economic security. If the person is economically dependent, an action plan must be developed that generates autonomy, that generates income for this woman, and that generates self- worth and the ability to generate her own resources to support herself. All of this needs to be developed into an action plan: protecting oneself, protecting children, and developing an economic system that allows for self-sufficiency.

[00:37:32]And finally, one resource is to recognize that this woman can recognize that the life she is leading at this moment is not the life she deserves, okay? In other words, it's not the life he deserves.

[00:37:45]She deserves a better life, she deserves better prospects, she deserves a better quality of life, because all people have the right to live with dignity, to live in peace and to live in a harmonious context. And, when those three elements are present within an action plan, that is, I have resources, I have the ability to leave, and finally I deserve a good life, the person is prepared to leave home. Okay? Now, that moment of departure, the actual act of leaving, of going away, is unfortunately the most dangerous moment and the most dangerous phase for both cobras and pitbulls. Once the person leaves, usually, for example, the pitbull doesn't want to let go, becomes very intense, starts to be aggressive, goes looking for the person, if it finds them, it will look for them and retaliate. The codra may start having attacks, ruptures, that is, that is the phase where you have to take much better care of it, okay? In other words, there are many more elements that must be taken into account, and a very detailed action plan must be developed that also includes panic buttons.

[00:39:10]In Latin America that doesn't exist, but we can have something like a panic button that implies that from a certain point, I mean, I'm going to explain to safe people in my environment that I'm going to leave this abusive relationship and that if I call or send a message to a certain point it's because I'm in an emergency and I need help, right? So, those elements are points to consider within this context that we are talking about at a family level, sorry.

[00:39:47]Now, characteristics of aggressors whose violence decreases. So, when are we going to talk about situational violence, right?

[00:39:58]So, what might be some factors that could contribute to a decrease in violence? In other words, what characteristics would we typically need to see in order to say, yes, this case can reduce violence?

[00:40:17]First is the youth of the aggressor.

[00:40:20]If the aggressor is a young person, right? I mean, we're not talking about someone over 50 or 60 years old, but we're talking about someone in their 20s or 30s, who has a better chance of changing.

[00:40:38]Another element is that they are people who, all things considered, are happy in their marriage. They consider their marriage to be a source of affection, a source of pleasure, a source of satisfaction.

[00:40:51]So there's also a second indicator where the fight is getting out of control, but these are people who genuinely feel good within their marriage.

[00:41:03]They are less likely to verbally degrade their women, that is, they do not use verbal humiliation in front of the woman. Well, they are less dominant, less contemptuous, and less aggressive towards them.

[00:41:17]and their level of physiological arousal during arguments is lower, that is, they have a greater capacity for self-control.

[00:41:25]These are some facts that can allow, uh [snort], for there to be an educational process, a training process for the person who has lost control and for the aggressor.

[00:41:37]Factors related to the end of violence and emotional abuse. In other words, there are elements that will have to be observed. First, if the man does not minimize, deny, or distort his responsibility for the violence—that is, when there is genuine remorse, when there is moral pain for the act, and when the man is genuinely deeply sorry and ashamed of having carried out a certain violent action, right? I mean, uh, you don't blame others, you don't say that you provoked me, but rather that I shouldn't have done that. I am sorry, I feel ashamed, I feel bad. I'm not doing well. When one's own ethics do not justify the aggressions, I repeat, moral pain, if the aggressions do not work as a method of control, that is, I am going to try to attack the victim and the victim tells me, already shouting, that you are going to intimidate me, you are going to hurt me, I am going to be subjected to you. I mean, no, no, that's not going to change things. I mean, you can scream all you want, but I'm not going to change the experience I'm having. In other words, the aggression is not under the control I was expecting. If the levels of emotional abuse are low, that is, if the person's threats, these characteristics of contempt, intimidation, are very low, that is also a good sign that this will end.

[00:43:05]If the dominant behavior is not very pronounced, that is, if it is not very deep, if the person does not have many elements of control, of dominance, that will also help. If the husband feels reasonably satisfied with the marriage, that is, if the marriage is a source of satisfaction, if the levels of alcohol and drug consumption are low, that is, this is also another issue. In other words, when there is high alcohol and drug use, the violence indicator also increases. If the husband has had to answer to the justice system for his violence, this part is also important. Uh, I remember cases in which, and especially this, there have been a couple of cases that I have dealt with of men who have been assaulted by their wives.

[00:43:55]So, for example, there was a case where the woman threw a stick at him, one of those big sticks, it hit him on the arm and there was a cut. He had to go to the clinic because of that cut, because of that blow. There was a bruise, and at the clinic they asked him, "No, what happened here?" No, I was working, I fell, I cut myself. Then they overwhelmed him and, well, they sent him back home. Anyway, there was no complaint, because he felt extremely ashamed that his wife had assaulted him.

[00:44:30]I also dealt with another case in which his wife smashed a cell phone over his head; his head started bleeding. He went to the clinic and they asked him, "What happened to you?" I didn't fall, something happened, etc. He came up with a theme, didn't he? This kind of thing, making up stories when there has been a physical assault, is very common. It tries to address the issue of concealment, but this doesn't help to stop the violence.

[00:45:00]When a woman has been hit, she has had a very difficult experience, and there is a context of complaint where the person, that is, the person who hit her, files a complaint.

[00:45:15]This legal experience will often allow the aggressor to have a whole framework of containment and to think before carrying out the violence because there will be repercussions that can lead to their arrest, that can lead to them going to jail.

[00:45:34]Well, in certain countries this isn't always as fast as in the United States where you call 911 and they arrive quickly at your door, right? And not just one, but several police officers arrive, which intimidates the aggressor. Here in Latin America the situation is different. However, the fact that there is a complaint and he has to answer for it, that reduces the aggression.

[00:46:02]I had a case of a man who assaulted his wife in front of his children, and the wife reported him.

[00:46:11]He thought the complaint had already been filed, but it hadn't. After 3 weeks, a notification arrived and every month he has to go and sign a document that confirms he is contributing. If the woman reports him again, he will be sent to prison. So when there are these boundary points, they are key elements in stopping the violence. Unfortunately, the most terrifying news is that the violence does not stop on its own. When there is a violent context, a truly violent one, it is not situational violence, but when there is a violent context, if it is not stopped appropriately, it will not stop on its own.

[00:46:59]In the case of characterological violence, that is, where there is a clear victim, we must empower and support the victim as therapists, we must guide and help the victim to make an escape plan and we must provide references to legal aid centers, right? In other words, a women's help center.

[00:47:18]And well, we're going to have to look at all of that, have a series of points in our office where the person can call and get guidance in that context.

[00:47:31]In the face of situational violence, clear rules must be established.

[00:47:36]One of the strategies I use is that when people have arrived in a violent situation, they have hit each other, they have been scared by everything they have experienced and come to therapy, a first exercise to establish clear rules is, I want you to make a list of all the things you don't want to experience in a relationship, right? So, all the couples start making a list of things like: I do n't want violence, I don't want insults, I do n't want humiliation, I don't want this control, I don't want abuse, I don't want it to be handled recklessly, I don't want hitting—a whole list, right? A whole list is made, and then once I have that list, I'm going to select three that would mark the end of the relationship. If you hit me again, I'm ending the relationship. If you humiliate me publicly again, I will end the relationship.

[00:48:34]So, when you already have that whole list of things I don't want and things that would make me end the relationship, that's going to set some clear boundaries. The couple can then discuss these elements and eventually draw up a very clear list of what the rules of the relationship are and what the consequences would be if one or both of them cross this line.

[00:49:01]That would be the first thing, to establish clear rules. Second element, to put a high cost on violence. In other words, if you do this to me again, I'm going to report you. I'm going to [clears throat] ask for a divorce, I'm going to put an end to this point. To put an end to emotional abuse, that is, to identify which behaviors of anger and annoyance are permitted and which behaviors are truly emotional abuse, behaviors that cannot be allowed. It should also be clarified that healthy anger is good and allows for the effective repair of the conflict. In other words, if you're angry, if you're not comfortable, and if you truly feel anger, if you feel rage, that emotional experience isn't bad, but it involves learning to communicate it from an assertive perspective, from an appropriate perspective, that allows for reasonable dialogue and allows both of you to feel seen, attended to, and heard.

[00:50:07]From a recommendations standpoint, the first thing is not to ignore instances of emotional abuse. I mean, listen, if there are threats, breaking objects, animal abuse, reckless behavior, I mean, we ca n't ignore that emotional abuse. Nor can we justify that abuse by saying he was upset, she was upset, he'll get over it, that's just how he is. If you already know what your dad is like, why bother? No, anger isn't something that leads us to have abusive behaviors, is it? Not empathizing with the feelings behind the abuse, right? Look, he's been upset and I empathize with that upset. No, we must not buy into the idea that abuse is justifiable.

[00:50:54]The couple needs to be educated about contempt and that contempt is a form of violence, and a policy of no contempt needs to be established within the relationship. These are elements that require a great deal of care and that must be taken into account at this point. Okay, so there are definitely more things we can talk about regarding how violence is handled in therapy and how characterological violence is handled in therapy. But hey, we ca n't cover everything in a morning coffee and there are usually some things that are worked on and addressed within our training experiences. So, for example, in the module we're doing today for coaches and couple therapists, we're delving deeper into the topic of complex trauma, right? So, while it is true that right now we are in this module where we are talking about infidelity, how to manage infidelity, how infidelity is regulated, how to support, etc., that this is already a complex trauma. Then we'll get into elements of violence, and there are specific techniques that can be used for addressing it, dialogue, setting boundaries, and so on, right? But well, this morning, in this cafe, I was able to mention that, well, basically there are elements, right? I mean, about the violence that when love becomes quite dangerous and that must be taken into account, right? In other words, if a person is in a violent relationship, it is important to ask for help. If you are in a relationship that unfortunately is not going well, that has gotten out of hand, that may have involved verbal abuse or physical abuse, it will not stop on its own.

[00:52:49]That's not going to stop because they're going to calm down and the next day, like magic, we'll wake up calmer and things will be alright.

[00:52:57]Professional help will be needed; you will need to see a qualified therapist who can help you through this process and help you move forward. And if you, as a therapist, work with vulnerable populations, populations experiencing violence, and all of that, you have to have a lot of judgment to identify when it is characterological violence and when it is situational, when you can truly conduct couple therapy and make use of all these resources, and when you cannot. That's why training is vital.

[00:53:30]So, I hope that in this live you were able to identify all these elements where violence is instrumentalized, the types of aggression according to the Godman model, and also what are those characteristics that are appropriate to stabilize the couple relationship and to empower the victim. Good.

[00:53:53]Hey, Adriana here asks me, "Is it possible to talk about love in these contexts of violence?"

[00:54:00]Well, it's a pretty profound question, but I think the answer is that sometimes love exists, but the fact that love exists doesn't imply that that love is healthy.

[00:54:16]Sometimes there is pathological love, sometimes there is dependence, sometimes there is an experience of obsession, and sometimes there is fear of loneliness.

[00:54:28]So, the important thing is not so much to evaluate whether love exists or not, because sometimes there are some relationships that provide us with a lot of satisfaction, but that also provide us with a lot of pain and that makes these relationships more dangerous. So sometimes you have to stop, sometimes you have to leave even though you feel good sometimes, but the cost sometimes is very high.

[00:55:00]I remember very well, and with this I'm wrapping up, there was a woman who once told me, "No, he's like a dog, he knows how to be affectionate, but when he puts his paws on my knee, he scratches, scratches, scratches, and that ends up hurting me a lot.

[00:55:22]So, it's better to stay away, and that's truly crucial. I mean, we can't put ourselves at risk for love. That's not advisable. It's important to have healthy relationships, and each person decides what kind of relationship they want. I mean, if I want to have a healthy relationship, I have to see if this can be changed. But if this can't be changed, it will be up to me to decide whether I stay or leave, and I make a whole proposal to leave.

[00:55:53]Okay. Well, we've reached the end here. Miriam tells us, "In cases of emotional dependence, the victim returns to the relationship again and again." Yes, that's why it's also important to seek professional help so that the victim can be empowered, because that's where they often put themselves at risk. Adriana... He says, "Thank you very much." Thanks to you for being here too. Oh, and Alexandra is with us as well. Hugs, Alexandra. It's great to see you here. Well, we 'll see you next Thursday with Alejandro here so he can tell us all about what he's learned and discovered on his trip to Boston.

[00:56:33]Sending you all a hug, and see you next Thursday. Take care.

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