When Winnipeg’s social problems spill onto the schoolyard

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[00:00:00]Hi everyone, I'm Marci Marcoux. This is Manitoba and if you care about this place, do not forget to follow our podcast and tell a friend. We care about this place, too.

[00:00:11]You know, if you live here, it is all about the people, after all. And some of those people, unfortunately right now, are struggling, especially in Winnipeg's West End.

[00:00:22]>> [music] >> And you know, Gordon Bell School is right there and many of these children have to walk by the open drug use or or violence that that is occurring. So, it's definitely a huge concern in the community. That's the West End's City Councillor, Cindy Gilroy. As you heard, she's worried about open drug use around the area of Portage and Sherbrook and she's not the only one. On the podcast today, advocates and educators are also weighing in, in addition to politicians, about heightened public drug use and not in just one area of the city, but they do not all agree on the way forward.

[00:01:07]We're going to hear different points of view today on what to do about it, but let's start with the school that Gilroy was talking about, Gordon Bell.

[00:01:15]Matt Henderson is superintendent of the Winnipeg School Division. How how much have you heard about this, either around Gordon Bell or around other schools in Winnipeg in this West End area? That that Is this a concern from your from your superintendent point of view?

[00:01:29]It's a concern throughout the whole city and the whole division around um addictions, around homelessness and the impact that it's having on our schools in general. I mean, I live right by Gordon Bell and so I'm part of the community and I see it every single day. I'm at schools every day um and uh there there is a significant issue with drug dealing and drug use and it's it's impacting our school and school communities. Uh Uh, by way of example, um on what street yesterday we I had three hold and secures because of one incident. So, three of my schools were in hold and secure because of an incident outside.

[00:02:06]Everybody's safe inside. Um, but it is a significant issue. So, can you describe what that means, a hold and secure, and what kind of an incident what what a nature of a kind of an incident might be as an example, um, that that would cause that to happen?

[00:02:21]Sure. I mean, it could be a number of things, but a hold and secure is when we, you know, we just make sure all the doors are locked and they generally are in in in all of our schools. Um, but it could be anything from uh, there's somebody outside who's really having a difficult time to the, you know, Winnipeg Police Service doing a a raid of a particular house. Um, it could be it could be a number of things. I mean, we're uh, we we've had principals who have had to resuscitate people on playgrounds.

[00:02:46]Um, and um, it it it is it is the the fueling of drugs in our community, which is having a significant impact and and I appreciate um, Councillor Gilroy coming on and and and speaking about it and raising it. Um, you know, I think school divisions, um, we're doing all we can um, to support uh, to support our schools and our communities. For instance, at Gordon Bell we have a um, a partnership with West End BIZ where we have their patrols coming where next year uh, we have two community safety hosts from Zucchini Ode who are going to be joining the Gordon Bell staff um, to to help people in in the community and more and more school divisions are taking on more and more uh, of of of the yoke of of keeping our community together. Um, how much detail can you provide us about which three schools were in lockdown and what happened yesterday?

[00:03:40]I I don't I don't particularly want to go into that right now.

[00:03:43]But but just to just to say it's not an unusual thing.

[00:03:46]>> Okay. Can you tell us if they were in the West End just as a last question on that?

[00:03:50]Yeah, it was in the West End. Okay. Um, but I But I would say just quickly Marci like um, drug the the drug use and addiction and I'm not blaming people at all. That's not what I'm trying to do, but it's pervasive throughout the city and the whole division. Doesn't matter the neighborhood. So it's interesting cuz Cindy Gilroy was talking about, you know, like looking for short-term solutions like maybe closing bus shelters in the area. So maybe there'll be fewer loitering or maybe people won't camp out or gather.

[00:04:16]But she also acknowledged that for her around the social problems and the drug use, she feels the city has done more to look at and address than the province, you know, homelessness with the strategies, but the actual drug use that happens and the underlying problems that people are struggling with, those things aren't getting enough support. I wonder whether or not you have a thought on that.

[00:04:38]Many thoughts on that. I think, you know, that that and I'm not I would never, you know, everyone is trying to bring solutions to the table. So I'm not trying to suggest that that anybody's one solution is is worse or better. This is a wicked problem.

[00:04:52]But I think, you know, getting rid of bus shelters is not not the solution when we're dealing with the fact that we have organized crime and drug dealers on corners selling drugs to people who are really vulnerable. The solution to me is get rid of the drugs and get rid of the drug dealers. And I know it's that's a really complex thing to think about, but when I think about the the parking lot across from Gordon Bell where the Tim Hortons and Rexall are and and just other corners in in like drug dealers are there. They're pervasive and they're they're willing and able. They're excellent entrepreneurs.

[00:05:26]And and in Winnipeg school division when there's a new shipment of $5 syringes in the community, we feel it.

[00:05:33]And if we're not if we're not really ready to talk about getting rid of drug dealers, then we can put band-aids on other things and keep doing that, but but but we got to get rid of the drugs and we have to get rid of the gangs and we have to get rid of the the drug dealers. Is it something Superintendent that the students talk about or raise concerns about in terms of how safe that they feel? Obviously, you've talked about a response, but I wonder what students are saying or their teachers or if they're not saying it, you know, what their teachers are telling you about what they're saying, right?

[00:06:03]Yeah, I mean, as a you know, with my principals, I've got, you know, 150 principals and vice principals, and we talk about this all the time. We have kids stepping over people.

[00:06:12]And And like that's hugely problematic for a million reasons.

[00:06:15]One is that we have vulnerable people who, you know, who have lost their dignity, but also it does, at times, it does present safety issues for for our kids and our staff. And And our staff are phenomenal about help supporting people in the community cuz they're cuz the community is us. And we have critical partnerships with Bear Clan and with Anishinaabe Oday and with, you know, countless other organizations where we're in constant communication to support the community. I mean, one of the things, you know, that I find really frustrating is in the mail I get yesterday, I got something from the City of Winnipeg saying, "Hey, school taxes are going up, but the City of Winnipeg municipality has the lowest taxes." And then we see the city crumbling.

[00:06:56]And And I think we need a a little bit more of a of a direct partnership with all levels of government instead of instead of instead of sort of saying, "Hey, we have lower taxes, but but because of that we're going to offload services to school divisions." And I think that's irresponsible. I think we need people at the table who are really looking at solutions like getting drugs off the streets and getting drug dealers off the streets.

[00:07:19]In terms of of of how this problem has changed or progressed, if you think about all of the schools as you've said, but in the West End specifically as well, how this has changed or escalated these problems outside of schools and I guess just the city by extension.

[00:07:39]Is it your sense that there's been a shift since COVID? Are we talking the last year for some reason things are escalating as far as drug use and social problems, you know, being seen more out on the streets and outside schools?

[00:07:51]Well, I mean, look, you live you you you you work at CBC. I do.

[00:07:54]>> And and so and so we're we're neighbors.

[00:07:56]And I live in the community. Um I think we've seen the the gap between rich and poor uh in Winnipeg uh widen. But also the the impact of methamphetamine and fentanyl um has just obliterated the city. And um there are you know, beautiful things happening all the time, magical things happening in the city of Winnipeg. I love this city. It's my city. I'll be here forever and ever and ever. Um but until we're really wanting to tackle organized crime, where people are walking around with big trucks and wads of money and houses and and all that kind of stuff and praying on vulnerable people, until we're you're really seriously wanting to come to the table to talk about that, I just I I don't know what else um we can do other than just simply putting band-aids on on on sort of some of these uh these issues. Is this the worst you've seen it?

[00:08:46]This is the worst I've seen it in in in my time in Winnipeg. Uh and it's because of the the methamphetamine and fentanyl.

[00:08:53]Um and we can go through all the the reasons why people are are addicted and the mental health issues and all that kind of stuff. But if we eliminate the source, um and we you know, there are people in our community deliberately trying to harm people so that they can make money.

[00:09:06]And so let's say that three times out loud. Um and uh and and tho- those people need to be removed. And and and and and not be able to sell drugs to to vulnerable people. That's Matt Henderson, superintendent of the Winnipeg School Division that oversees Gordon Bell.

[00:09:23]Well, the mayor of the city of Winnipeg is Scott Gillingham, and he says that he's talked to police about the issues around the school and in the city overall. Uh chief of police and I did have a conversation a couple weeks ago about open drug use, and I said to the chief that if his officers are going to be enforcing open drug use, I would be in full support of of that initiative.

[00:09:48]Uh we have reached out to Winnipeg Police Service about what that means, policing open drug use. They are working on our request. Uh in addition, as you might have heard in the news this morning, homelessness and addictions Minister Bernadette Smith has weighed in on this.

[00:10:02]You know, for folks to try and paint um you know these incidents in any of these communities as if these folks are uh responsible for uh what's happening, I think is, you know, a disservice and you know, really dehumanizes community members.

[00:10:24]Kate Sjoberg is in studio uh with us today. Kate is the executive director of Resource Assistance for Youth or RAY.

[00:10:31]The organization offers support for young people aged 15 to 29 and they are located in the West End and it does include help for addictions and she is here uh with her perspective. Good morning.

[00:10:42]>> Um what goes through your mind when you're hearing the mayor talking about, you know, wanting to police to enforce rules around open drug use and then some of the concerns the minister raised?

[00:10:51]Uh honestly, it goes to a funeral I was at uh this past month for a young person that passed away due to overdose. Uh you know, uh folks that uh are serving uh community members who are impacted by the toxic drug crisis in Winnipeg have observed um we're connected to at least 30 people in in the month of April alone who passed away. Uh and that's just organizations that are serving folks that are impacted by the toxic drugs crisis. Uh so it's not representative of the city of Winnipeg. It's not even it's not representative of the province of Manitoba. And so uh you know, and so I think what what's important to add to this conversation is that Winnipeggers are concerned about what's going on and and they're stepping up. And so uh uh a petition to the government of Manitoba to establish a public health emergency on the matter of toxic drugs has reached 800 signatures.

[00:11:44]As a petition to the House of Commons to expedite care for people that are impacted by the toxic drugs crisis has reached nearly 700 signatures as of this morning. And so you know, I Winnipeggers are a lot more compassionate than I think some of the stories this week have have been demonstrating. And and part of it is because so many people are affected by by this matter in their own families. People have lost family members. People are trying to support family members who are are experiencing addictions. And they're experiencing a failure of of the system to respond appropriately.

[00:12:23]And so I I think I think it's just really important to to expand the conversation to the care that people have for one another in our communities.

[00:12:32]I understand you're worried about the police aspect of this. When you hear the mayor say he's talked to the chief of police about open drug use, you recently had some young people, some clients of RaY, have a >> [laughter] >> ticketed, is that right?

[00:12:46]Yeah, this week we received a disclosure of two youth that received bylaw infractions from cadets. They were cuffed and they received tickets of I believe it was $673.

[00:13:00]So And what were they for what were they doing? Uh open consumption of alcohol.

[00:13:05]>> Consumption, okay. So Of alcohol, okay.

[00:13:08]>> Yeah. And so you know, RaY serves people that are largely experiencing poverty.

[00:13:13]The vast majority of the people we serve are have been impacted by CFS, had struggles graduating high school.

[00:13:20]And and are facing a job market that is very very difficult. And RaY just just to talk about just in terms of homelessness, Ray supplemented, um, use um, rental costs by $100,000 last year because there's been a pause in the Canada-Manitoba Housing Benefit, right?

[00:13:39]So, we're talking about affordability, we're talking about options for youth, and we're also talking about the despair that youth are feeling in terms of being able to tackle these these problems. So, if we want to talk about the impact of a ticketing program or the impact of introducing more policing into the issue, um, how are you uh, who uh, are on EIA or, you know, having difficulty seeking jobs going to pay a $600 $600 ticket? So, this this, uh, compounds the difficulty that people are experiencing rather than supporting them. Um, it's interesting because, uh, you talked about having compassion in Winnipeggers being more compassionate and wanting to look at this story from different angles. Um, there can be people with compassion who are also worried about public safety. Winnipeg's school superintendent, uh, yesterday of the school division, Matt Henderson, said, "Open drug use in the city is the worst he's ever seen." He told CBC. Uh, he expressed concern over some of the students who are exposed to, uh, drug dealing uh, right outside. They're walking over, uh, people in the schoolyard who happen to be there, uh, passed out for various reasons or maybe just sleeping because they don't have a home. And he described it as, uh, with compassion, saying, "This is difficult.

[00:14:44]This is difficult for everyone. The person who's there without a home, but then also for kids this can be difficult, too, and for students."

[00:14:51]Um, he did feel like we need to sort of look at dealers and and and figure out what to do, that it's been the worst he's ever seen, he said, living in the city.

[00:14:59]What's the way forward, do you think, to with compassion and with with uh, you know, with dealing with people's public safety concerns?

[00:15:07]Well, you know, I think it's incumbent upon, you know, the educators to to participate in education, you know, and and to increase understanding rather than increase fear. So, I in no way want to be, um, you know, downplaying people's concerns, but I I've found in in a number of places of work over time in terms of supporting people who are experiencing crisis that there's a lot of ways to build relationship towards people having pathways towards solutions in their own lives.

[00:15:33]And it takes patience and it takes it takes takes effort. Now, I think it's also important to say that you know, Winnipeg Centre has the highest child poverty rate across Canada and we've also experienced divestment of key supports for youth and families over over many many years but including this year in terms of the city grants program that supported for example Broadway Neighborhood Centre in terms of its just TV's program. And so when we're seeing those divestments for people that we might be talking about exactly the same people that Matt's talking about in terms of their ability to access services locally and we've seen a divestment of those services over time.

[00:16:14]And so it's important to to be very very very careful about where we we invest for the outcomes that we want to see.

[00:16:20]Um not everyone that's out there is struggling with drug use some are dealing on the back you know and making money as as as Matt put it yesterday on on the backs of vulnerable people.

[00:16:33]Um if we don't police our way out of that and I'm you know pushing obviously at the extreme here but I mean this is what the suggestion's been. Where do how do you think how do we tackle that? So we have an unprecedented public health emergency on HIV that has been declared.

[00:16:51]And I think we really need to look at you know, we're talking about safety.

[00:16:56]There's also the public safety issue of health and health care and the importance of keeping people well and the coincidence of HIV rates and mortality due to drug use. And so I would submit that it's really important to refocus on keeping people safe in those areas and that will um do a lot better at over time and in longevity building more safety throughout our communities for everyone. Just as the last question here, the area counselor speaking of geographic supports was talking about a lack of support for addiction and in drug use specifically in the West End.

[00:17:32]What more would you like to see I mean right there in the place where you know you're located where Ray's located where you're working with all these youth? I would like to see the counselor support the safe consumption site that it has been delayed. That would support more safety in the West End for sure. And and that's not the only only part of the solution. We need expanded solutions across the board, right? So but we really need that that center open. Well, that's it for today's episode of This is Manitoba. I'm Marcy [music] Markusa and if you want to weigh in on anything you've heard today or in the past podcast or you have a story to share that you'd like us to cover in Manitoba, let us know about it.

[00:18:10]Our email is this is Manitoba full word at cbc.ca.