Richard Dawkins, Jimmy Carr - "The Late Late Show"

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[00:00:02][music] >> My next guest is a man known for his controversial views. He says, for example, that if you believe in God, you may as well believe in fairies. His latest book is about evolution, which he calls not just the only game in town, but also the greatest show on Earth.

[00:00:21]Would you please welcome Richard Dawkins?

[00:00:23]Welcome to Late Late Show.

[00:00:24]>> Thank you. Uh another book, another day, another chat show.

[00:00:27]Uh why did you write this one?

[00:00:31]It's about the most just about the most important thing you could imagine a book being about. It's about why we're all here, why we exist, why animals and plants, just about everything we see exists. That's the most rivetingly exciting subject. Could have been written anytime. I take it though that you mean why write it now.

[00:00:48]>> exactly.

[00:00:49]Less interesting question.

[00:00:51]>> Okay, well, I'll take the answer if you could make it interesting, I'd appreciate it. Well, it is true that there is poll information which suggests that in the United States somewhat more than 40% of the population thinks that the entire world is less than 10,000 years old.

[00:01:07]Now, that is a bizarre circumstance that 40% of the population of the major industrial nation in the in the world should have a view which is so incredibly out of tune with reality.

[00:01:20]And so, that's one reason why it was necessary to write it.

[00:01:22]>> it's time to call a halt to such. What would they feel about your writings? Do they think it's just that you're being unfair to them and that you have it wrong? They think that everything in the book of Genesis is literally true.

[00:01:36]And therefore, if science contradicts the book of Genesis, science must be wrong and Genesis must be right.

[00:01:42]What what's your take on what actually happened vis-a-vis humans arriving here in the state we are in? When when did that happen in your When did humans arrive on Yes, in the state Yes, as we as we can as we know them. Well, it was a gradual process. It's a bit like saying when did a child become an adult?

[00:01:58]You know, by convention we say it happened on the stroke of midnight on the 18th birthday, but we know that actually it's a gradual process. So, there never was a moment when the first human was born.

[00:02:08]The first human looked exactly like the the last ape so to speak. So, but if you put a figure about 100,000 years, that would be by about 100,000 years you'd be getting humans that were exactly like us as far as their anatomy is concerned. Probably not as far as their uh culture is concerned. They didn't have painting and things like that.

[00:02:28]>> And how different are we from other animals then broadly? Well, we're hugely different from other animals in that we have language, we have art, we have mathematics, philosophy. Um we have all sorts of emotions that other animals probably don't have.

[00:02:40]>> Yes. And what about the notion of God then? Where does God fit into all of this?

[00:02:44]Well, God as I see it has rather little to do anymore. I mean, there was a time when when God had a a lot to do in people's minds. He made the world, he made made life, made humans.

[00:02:55]That's all out now. We don't We don't need God anymore to explain anything.

[00:02:59]And I think that pretty much means we don't need God at all. Yeah, but who are we because like pretty much everyone watching Well, many people watching the TV would think that watching us tonight would say, "Well, I don't belong to that we."

[00:03:10]Uh that God is very much in their pieces. And no doubt it is and no doubt there are people who get plenty of consolation from the idea of God and no doubt there are people who think they talk to God and think God talks to them.

[00:03:22]Uh but that doesn't mean he's really there.

[00:03:25]So, where is he?

[00:03:26]Doesn't exist.

[00:03:28]Not in the slightest. I would have thought my there's certainly no evidence that that that any kind of God exists.

[00:03:33]So, what is the Vatican then? What toy town or Yeah.

[00:03:38]Um I mean, a gigantic and very expensive and very rich waste of time.

[00:03:44]There will be many people watching tonight who will say that, you know, much of their lives have been lived based on a belief system that involves God very much being in existence and that this is what they've, you know, lived their life based on.

[00:03:59]What do you say to them? Well, that of course is true. There are many people who think exactly that. It doesn't mean they're right. And your thoughts on their on their their beliefs?

[00:04:09]Well, they're misguided, mistaken.

[00:04:12]Do you feel sorry for them? Uh yes.

[00:04:14]Why?

[00:04:15]Well, because if people have really sincerely lived their lives under delusion and feel that they needed it for support and for living a full life, if you suddenly pull it out from under them, then they're naturally going to feel somewhat um bereft.

[00:04:31]>> So, where did the notion of God come from then? Oh, well, I think it goes back a very long way. I think it partly comes from the the desire to understand. I mean, we look around the world and we see what an incredibly elaborate, complicated place it is. We're used to the idea that complicated things must be made by something or someone. And so, it's very easy to see why the idea of God should have grown up.

[00:04:53]And it took a very long time. It took until the middle of the 19th century until people realized that there was another, a better, more economical explanation for all that. Do you see God as as believable as the Easter Bunny?

[00:05:05]Pretty much, yes. And would you equate them?

[00:05:08]Yeah, pretty much. I mean, they're they're It's That sounds facetious because of course nobody believes in the Easter Bunny, but lots of people believe in God. But if you actually examine the amount of evidence there is for either, it's equally equally sparse.

[00:05:21]>> fills a a space for a lot of people in their lives as you as you probably know from talking to people who believe in God. Uh the spiritual, the soul, and so on. And and people who have religion and believe in God might feel that the road you travel is a very lonely one.

[00:05:36]Not at all lonely. I've got great friends and and I have a wonderful life with with human companionship. That's real, warm human companionship. It's really there. That's not imaginary.

[00:05:46]That's really there. By the way, this has nothing to do with the new book.

[00:05:49]You're You're asking me questions about the previous book, The God Delusion.

[00:05:53]>> Yeah. I'm also asking questions that are interesting to to us. So, that's that's I'm not being smart about it. I'm just telling the truth. So, what happens then as you see it when we die?

[00:06:03]Well, some of us get buried and some of us get cremated.

[00:06:07]And where do we go?

[00:06:09]Where do we go as you see it?

[00:06:11]Is that it? Game over? Game Game over, but the game while it lasts is pretty wonderful. I mean, what happens when we die is the same as before we were born. I mean, you know, we didn't know anything about it when Henry VIII was alive and we wouldn't know anything about it in 500 years' time.

[00:06:26]>> Do you fear death?

[00:06:27]No, I fear dying. Why? Uh because I'm not, unlike my dog, allowed to go to the vet and be painlessly put to sleep.

[00:06:37]But because I belong to this privileged uh species Homo sapiens, which is the only one that is not allowed to be painlessly put out of its misery.

[00:06:45]>> Okay. I would like to die under a general anesthetic, just as I'd like to have my appendix out under a general anesthetic. Have you Have you had Have you thought about being morbid about you and I'm not Have you thought about your own funeral?

[00:07:01]Yeah, I have. I mean, I I thought I might like to ask for the music, you know, the elephant march from Aida.

[00:07:11]Uh very triumphal uh trumpet trumpet music. See me out.

[00:07:17]A triumphant exit.

[00:07:19]But why do you Do you want a ceremony to see you off?

[00:07:23]Well, I have organized ceremonies for dearly loved colleagues, uh funeral ceremonies. I've organized um readings from their favorite poetry, favorite music, um eulogies from uh friends who knew and loved them. Um Um, think it is an important I think humans do need ritual, we do need rites of that sort. And when somebody dies, I think it's right to um, to give them a proper send-off, some sort of a wake, uh, which um, remembers them and um, which makes you feel you've somehow fulfilled something.

[00:07:59]>> Okay, I want to talk to a member of the audience who who you know, Father Brendan personally, man of the Um, the Vatican is Toy Town, God is the Easter Bunny, and you as a priest have been wasting your time.

[00:08:09]Well, I don't know, I wouldn't exactly put it like that. I'd say to go back to the things you Richard was saying earlier on. I wouldn't say, I mean, I have no problem with science. I mean, my mother left school at 16 and she read The Origin of Species at breakfast time, the only time she got free in the morning, and she followed that by reading the Bible, things she'd never done in her life. So, I think in Ireland we don't have the problem you mentioned in the States. Uh, my first year in university we did a book, I'm sure you're you're appreciate John Maynard Smith's Theory of Evolution. That was taught by a priest. In other words, it isn't a problem in Ireland, the very the reason you wrote wrote that book, cuz we never saw, certainly I never felt there was any conflict between science or evolution and my belief at all whatsoever. But I did I do feel there is I mean, I've read a lot of your work and have I to say I still think my favorite book of yours is The Ancestor's Tale. I think it's totally brilliant.

[00:08:53]>> Do you do you like what he writes in particular?

[00:08:55]>> I like some of what he writes more than others.

[00:08:57]>> What do you What's your content contention with what he writes?

[00:09:00]>> The contention I'd have would be, at least I've two or three of them, but my The first The most obvious one would be science. That I think I don't I'm not trying to write write now, you Richard, but I think he believes in science in a sense that he he like he feels that science explains everything. But I mean, the one thing science doesn't explain is science itself. I'm talking about the natural sciences, including biology. So, I feel there really is a problem here because if you like, the word science comes from a Latin word meaning knowledge, and I think there's other forms of knowledge which are just as well grounded as the the knowledge of the natural sciences.

[00:09:30]So, there are questions that are not asked by the natural sciences. So, I've always felt in a certain sense says give answers to questions you haven't asked.

[00:09:38]You might argue Richard Dawkins you might argue that that's with with your theory and and the evolution and so forth there's always there's evidence there's things to look at to point to.

[00:09:47]Uh what do you point to when it comes to God? I would say Cuz one of the good things about his book that he's mentioned there and I've seen the reviews I haven't had time to read it but one of the good points about it part of it is written like a detective story am I right? And there's clues and you're spotting the clues. And I would say one of the obvious clues to the existence of God and we're not talking about the God of Christianity of the Old Testament and about God at the level of pure reason.

[00:10:09]Effectively the fact that you have a reality namely the Big Bang. You have a question there that cannot be answered by physics or astronomy. And if you read the big guys like Stephen Hawking the famous guy you've seen him in his wheelchair and so on but a book he wrote with another guy way back in the 70s George Ellis it's quite clear that we've come to a singularity here. Singularity is something we can't repeat it again and again which is the start of everything which we cannot explain by physics or astronomy. And it's that's that's why I would such a jump in and say oh no we have a chance. I think there's actually a question here the classic question Richard's been asked many a time why is there something rather than nothing and biology isn't meant biology is my equivalent biology is something like if you like if I can make a parallel between a farmer and a supermarket. The farmer produces the stuff the supermarket has selling and processed it. The biologist deals with the stuff as it's presented. It doesn't explain where the blinking fruit came from.

[00:10:58]>> Okay.

[00:10:58]Hands up for everyone in this audience who believes in God please. Hands nice and high please just give us an an idea.

[00:11:05]Okay what do you what do you call that Richard about what 50 60 70% >> say more of anything. 75% hands up those who don't. Hands up those who do not believe in God at all.

[00:11:15]Which is a sprinkling. Which is quite interesting. What do you think of that?

[00:11:17]I mean it's a very I think that would be typical of a >> result I would say.

[00:11:20]>> So so all hands that went up the first time diluted. Well look why don't I just come back and ask you a question?

[00:11:25]>> ask you a question.

[00:11:26]>> Yeah yeah yeah. Um first I'm delighted you brought the the subject back in a way to the topic of this book rather than the previous book, which was which was The God Delusion. Um now, when you say that I believe in science, and you know, why do I I believe in science?

[00:11:39]Really because it works. I mean, the the evidence is there. Um it's a kind of um self-validating process because as a result of science, these television cameras work, planes fly, cars go. Um day after day we see that that the the evidence of our eyes is that science works. Now, when you were asked about the evidence for God, you used my analogy of the detective coming on the scene after the crime, and you infer it from all the clues that are left lying around. That's what I used to say how we know evolution has happened cuz we can't see it cuz it happened mostly before we were born. Um but I don't actually think it's right to say that the world is littered with evidence for God. Um I think when you look at it carefully, it turns out this this particular detective has got it wrong. Um the you you think the evidence is there, but I think if you look at it really carefully. I mean, before Darwin came along, I mean, you of course, as a as any intelligent theologian would, believe in evolution.

[00:12:38]But before Darwin came along, most people didn't. Now, Darwin changed our minds on that. And I suspect that we'll find that other people are going to come along and change our minds about the other alleged clues that you think you've seen.

[00:12:51]>> Okay, let's talk about just another element in the book I'd like to ask you about is the future for evolution. Where where do we go from here? Where does the human go from here as you see it?

[00:13:01]In evolution?

[00:13:02]>> Yeah, where do you see it going?

[00:13:03]>> Um well, remember that when we are uh thinking about the future, we're used to we're accustomed to thinking about a historical time scale, which is centuries. You're not going to see much evolution in centuries. So, we got to look forward, say a couple of million years in order to give that question an interesting answer.

[00:13:22]In a couple of million years, the chances are we'll be extinct because most species do go extinct. Uh if we but on the other hand, there is something rather special about the human species.

[00:13:31]If any species could protect itself against going extinct the way the dinosaurs did, it might be ours because we do have the technology to do that.

[00:13:39]So, let's suppose that we do manage to survive through 10 million years. What are we going to look like then? Nobody has the faintest idea.

[00:13:48]But in order for any particular hypothesis to be true, like you might say perhaps the brain will go on getting bigger. And the dominant trend in the last 3 million years of our evolution is that the brain has swollen up from the size of a chimpanzee's brain about 3 million years ago. Lucy's brain was about the size of a chimpanzee's brain to now. Is it going to be much bigger again in 10 million years' time?

[00:14:14]Only if it's true that the cleverest or the brainiest, anyway, the individuals with the biggest brains are the ones who have the most children.

[00:14:23]So, is there any evidence that the people who have the most children are the brightest or the cleverest or the ones with the biggest brains?

[00:14:31]I don't think so.

[00:14:32]But it would have to be so in order for natural selection to favor the enlargement of the brain. It must have been so during the last 3 million years, otherwise brain size would not have increased the way it has since the time of Lucy 3 million years ago. Okay. Well, thank you for coming to see us today.

[00:14:50]Richard Dawkins, the book, by the way, is there. It's The Greatest Show on Earth.

[00:14:56]>> [music] >> I was just I'm just saying that you're a bit of a Dawkins fan. You were you were a huge I'm a huge fan. It's a really thrilling thing to meet Did you have a chat with him? I I just briefly said hello, but I'm a huge fan of his work. I think you know, other than you know, I mean, obviously he does the the religious thing, which is which is fascinating. I think I think I think most religious people, when you really talk to them, think that all other religions are wrong. And I sort of think they're half right. Yes, because you were kind of semi-religious for a while.

[00:15:24]>> very religious. I was Catholic growing up.

[00:15:26]>> You were. And I sort of thought, well, if if we're all God's children, what's so special about Jesus?

[00:15:31]And that changed everything. Oh, they didn't want to laugh at that.

[00:15:34]>> [laughter] >> Well, they sort of had to. Um I think No, I think reading those books, [clears throat] I think I was I I think I was an atheist before I discovered his work, and then and then discovering his work kind of I think it's a it's a very interesting thing losing one's religion.

[00:15:45]I think it's a it's a revolution for one. Yeah.

[00:15:48]>> It just changes everything completely.

[00:15:50]And I think it's a very it's a very interesting process. It's a process that people don't really talk about. I think I think the show of hands earlier was it was interesting to watch, because so many hands went in the air, and I wonder is there a social stigma in in Ireland about being an atheist. I wonder is it still something that >> Well, I don't think that too many people would be willing to put their hands up to say I don't believe in God. I don't know why that is. Maybe it's a I don't know, but maybe people do believe. I mean, I'm >> they do. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:13]>> the stares and the crossed arms, I'm guessing they do.

[00:16:15]>> Yeah, there's a bit of body language going on there. All right.

[00:16:18]Tell us some more jokes and leave Jesus alone.

[00:16:21]All right, don't cry.

[00:16:24]No.

[00:16:25]We've all got imaginary friends. I've just grown out of mine. Come on.

[00:16:31]>> [applause] >> If you're saying You wrote this article like or at least it was questioned there for some psychology magazine of some sort.

[00:16:39]Forgive me for not knowing it, but you said in it at the end of it that you you you kind of buying books Dawkins books to give for Christmas presents to people.

[00:16:45]>> Yeah, no, I think it's a lovely thing to give to a >> You're going to be evangelical about your >> I think I'm quite evangelical about it.

[00:16:49]I used to think it was very charming. Used to think anyone's religious beliefs were were very charming, and and I think there comes a point where you just go, well, I've kind of got I'm like a fundamentalist atheist now. Yes, that's what I was thinking.

[00:17:00]>> more kind of forthright about the whole thing. But, it's not for me to say. I mean, it's not for a comedian. He's a scientist, and he's backed it up with with a very interesting and very accessible science. I'm a comedian. It's not my place to tell anyone what to think about anything. So, I mean, that's just my opinion. But, I'm not I'm not evangelical with people that I don't know. But, with my friends, A pub conversation you say you should read this is a bit of a try. But I mean to the Late Late Show audience I'll let them believe any fairy tale they like.

[00:17:24]>> [laughter] >> God love you.