The Rabbi Who Sends Ultra-Orthodox Jews to Fight for Israel

Added: 2026-05-13

[00:00:00]As the war rages on in Iran, Lebanon, and Gaza, there is new drama on the home front with the Supreme Court ruling on economic sanctions against ultraorththodox draft dodgers. Welcome everyone to this briefing brought to you by the Israel Defense and Security Forum. We've addressed this issue in the past. We're going to revisit it today because it is in fact so timely. uh we have seen over the past number of years the need for more soldiers, more combatants, more fighters in the Israeli army and there's a whole population the ultraorththodox who don't serve in the army. So the natural combination would be encourage compel the ultraorththodox to serve in these units. This has been an ongoing struggle here in Israel and we're going to address it from a little bit of a different perspective today.

[00:00:49]It's a great pleasure to be joined today by a rabbi in the ultraorththodox community, Rabbi Carmy Gross. He is a wellrespected Russa Torah scholar.

[00:01:00]However, he doesn't squarely fit into the ultra orthodox community because he is the dean of a yeshiva for ultraorththodox that serve in the army.

[00:01:11]Bab Gross, it's a it's a great honor to be able to sit with you right now and really dive deep into the issue of the ultraorththodox involvement in military service in Israel. This is a hot topic.

[00:01:23]It's very important to potentially in the next round of elections here in Israel as a major issue. And I think I I'd love to begin with really understanding why the ultraorththodox world is painted as being against service in the military in Israel.

[00:01:39]Well, they're painted because they are against service in the military in Israel. So, it's not a it's not a false um look at the at the Karedi world. um by and large the vast majority of the ultra orthodox karedi um students or young men in Israel are not only do not draft but are as you as you've seen in the streets and the and the demonstrations they are very let's say viferously against um army service the uh and and the the reasons are are are not simple many times It's painted as simply being an issue that the army isn't religious enough and if we solve the religious issue in the army as they are trying to do now with new units that are very religious such as the Kashma unit um I which I have the honor of being on their board of rabbis and um and just changing the whole outlook in many areas of the army. Uh just very recently two three weeks ago for the first time ever not only the defense ministry set out guidelines for karedum in the army for ultraorththodox in the army but for the first time the chief of staff gave guidelines and that actually surprisingly never existed. So those guidelines are now in place also. So the army is making an effort to deal with the issue of the religion. Can a person feel comfortable serving in the army? Um I I think though that something important has to be said here and it's it's an opportunity to clarify something. I think the the army is making a mistake. If they think that once they solve that issue then the whole issue will go away and the fear of the not being the army will go away because as it's presented today it's presented as being something that okay the said we're not going to the army because it's not religious enough because we want to learn Torah and we want we need a certain standard religiosity and the army thinks okay we'll we'll address those issues and it'll solve the problem. Um but that it certainly is a issue and it will certainly solve part of the problem but that's not the real issue and in in a way that's that's a negative because the army is not solving it that way.

[00:04:06]However, if you really take a little time and as part of the Karedi world, I think I have a very unique um ability to look inside and see really what is the issue. Why don't go to the army? In other words, because you can have those in the in the what we call world, the national religious camp that many of them are very very very religious. I'll tell you clearly more religious than me in many times. I know some of them but they call the or the and they're very religious all suspend and dedicate their lives to learning Torah and they all go to the army 90% of them do go to the army so it's obviously not really only the religious issue there is something else and I think that has to be understood and when we understand that issue I think it really does change things and it will explain I and I think give us a lot of optimism about the future because You are correct in saying that this issue, the divide between the Kedi, the ultraos, and the rest of Israeli society is a divide that that has a very very wide chasm between them and it's tearing apart the country.

[00:05:18]And when people look at statistics and say that 40% of first graders in Israel today are so that means just play it forward and you're gonna have half the country within the next 20 years. And obviously you can't have a house divided cannot stand. I think it says that somewhere in Tanakh but it it it can't happen. So this solving this issue is crucially important. I don't think people pay enough attention to it. Uh you know it it gets there and like you say elections come so all of a sudden everybody's interested in it. But if you look at the societal issue that's here a rift and a tear that's happening in the fabric of Israeli society. If this issue is not dealt with and it's not solvable, then then we're we're in a very very bad place and I think to understand the issue and maybe to get to the point how do how do we solve the issue is is to understand the issue what is the issue and I'll start by asking you a very simple question right you know in the states many many communities that are very very Zionistic who on Yamat say halal and they make a blessing on the they make a bra a blessing on the hal and they care deeply about Israel and its soldiers. They give money and they buy things and they come here to Israel. They make barbecue and they dance with they really believe in Medina is they believe in everything happening and they they they care deeply about Israel. But here's my question to everyone out there. When their children when their boys turn 18, do they all come to Israel and go to the army?

[00:06:56]The answer is no. Some do, but that's the minority. The vast majority do not.

[00:07:01]Why not? Why can't you have that same thing? The these people are the the soldiers are protecting the whole nation of Israel. It's true. There's no question about it. How How could you be How could you not go to the army? How could you not How could you sit by and let others do what's the answer? It's a great question, right? And the answer is very simple. Because they love Israel.

[00:07:25]They care about Israel deeply, but they're not Israelis.

[00:07:30]In the end result, army service is part of being an Israeli. It's part of Israeli culture. You're brought up in a country and and and what's sad, it's not sad, it's just a fact that many of those same people would feel more comfortable sending their children to the American army because they're Americans, right?

[00:07:49]They're culturally Americans. We're just not Israelis.

[00:07:53]And that's an incredibly important fact.

[00:07:56]I think it's obvious and simple. Now take that exact idea and you start to understand something. You have to understand that the karedi world in Israel differs in the karedi world in America. In that the karedi world in America, its roots are in Western European Jews. Those are the German Jews that that settled America first. Yes, the masses of of Jews did come in the early 20th century and they did come from Russia and from Poland, right, because of the the the everything going on at the beginning of the 20th century.

[00:08:31]But they came to an America where religion was already established.

[00:08:36]However, in the Jews who came to Erit Israel, who came to Israel beginning at the first Aliot, they were already coming from Eastern Europe, which means that the type of Judaism of I refer to ultraorththodox Judaism that was established in Israel was established with Eastern European philosophies and outlook on life, which is not true in America. What's the difference between them? Well, it's very simple. A Jew who lived in Western Europe from take it from the 1600s and on for 300 years lived very much in tune with the culture in which he lived which means they were always part of the culture. They saw themselves part of good and bad any way you want to play it. We're not going to go there today, right? But they were part of the arts and part of the culture and part of the music and part of the philosophy and part of the the universities. That was how Jews lived.

[00:09:32]Jews in Eastern Europe did not live that way and not because they had they they came with a different outlook. They lived that way partially because the non-Jews in Eastern Europe the which were very fanatically Christian, they shut them out. So it's not like a Jew in in in Russia in the 1800s could have said, "Okay, I think I'm going to go to college." It wasn't an option. You're not going anywhere, Jew. Right? You're staying in your in the what they call the pale of settlement. You're not going anywhere. you and and the Jews didn't make ghettos because they wanted to separate themselves from the from the pernitious culture of the non-Jews. The ghettos were made by the non-Jews, keep the Jews in and therefore the whole outlook of the Eastern European Jew was always to be totally and completely isolated from anything going on in the culture. And they never looked at themselves as being Russian Jews. We were Jews who are caught in Russia. It didn't mean anything. They weren't Polish Jews. They were Jews who happened to be living in Poland. That was not true of the German Jew and the English Jew and the French Jew and the Hungarian Jew. They looked at themselves. No, we are Hungarians or Germans or English who have to be Jewish. And that was a totally different look at how how you viewed the world and your Jewishness and your connection to the culture. Come full circle. Now the world in Israel and as I mentioned that was established by Eastern European Jews that was a type of Judaism which was never involved with the culture never saw themselves as part of the country that's just the way they lived for over three 400 years and they came to Israel and they see themselves until this day until this day they look at themselves in the same way we are not Israelis we are not involved with the culture of Israel. We have nothing to do with the culture of Israel. We are doing and that's why many times they say, you know, if we have to draft, we'll just leave the country. It doesn't mean anything to them because they do not see themselves Israelis. And that's the biggest issue with the army. The army is they don't know what you're talking about. It's not part of their upbringing. It's not part of their culture. It's not part of their worldview. They Why would we fight in an army? You know, give it back to the Arabs. What do we care? Obviously, all the questions about about Zionism and about about returning to Zion and all the religious things of those don't even come into play because they just don't see it. And you know, it's it's a fascinating thing. And therefore, they can't bring themselves to say they they can't bring themselves to make a a bra to bless the government. They'll bless the government in America, right? You can go to an Orthodox show and they'll bless the American government.

[00:12:19]shows synagogue in Israel will not bless the Israeli government that we don't have a government here. They don't they don't recognize it which is strange because they're they're in the Knesset.

[00:12:30]They're they're right. They're part of the but culturally and and I've said this many times people do not pay enough attention to the power of culture. It's incredibly powerful. It's incredibly powerful and culturally they're not Israelis.

[00:12:46]And therefore the army can do all at once to make it more religious and make it more comfortable for a religious person to be there. That will affect many as I'll speak about in a moment.

[00:12:55]But that's not really the biggest issue.

[00:12:58]The biggest issue is are you an Israeli?

[00:13:01]I said it's not about it's about it's not about are you ultra orthodox.

[00:13:08]It's it's not that religious dimension.

[00:13:11]It's much more the cultural dimension that can play. The optimism that gives me here with this is that a wise man once said, it's a beautiful line and he said that the problem with building walls today is that the bricks are made of glass and that that really means two things.

[00:13:34]Number one, they break easily, but more importantly, you can see right through them. The world today is coming more and more becoming more and more Israeli more and more people part of them they see themselves as so maybe they won't say that blessing for the government in sh but they will celebrate yamat they'll have a barbecue they'll go out to the park right not all obviously but there is I would say up to 30% if not higher of The world has more and more seen themselves as develop because they see they see through the walls. You know, you you build that wall of the ghetto and you build but you see right through it. So the power of media and the power of of of the mass media, you can't hide what's going on. And people are seeing that and they're they're very comfortable with it. And because of that, more and more Israelis today do see themselves. And and here I think there is hope that once these religious issues in the army do get solved as we're solving them and as we build as you begin to build and this is something I began 15 years ago which we'll talk about later to build different types of yeshiva different types of programs they become incredibly popular. So I hope I've answered your question somewhere in all of that.

[00:14:58]You know, there's there's a lot of optimism here because if the fundamental disconnect between the ultra orthodox and the army is a culture thing is as you're saying culture can can change and and the ultraorththodox are in fact changing whereas if it's like a fundamental ideology you know that can be harder to break but I'm curious to understand do the does the ultraorththodox community believe that there is a need for more soldiers in the army Meaning when the army when the state of Israel says we really need you, we don't have enough. Do they do they not believe that?

[00:15:33]>> They do not believe. No. No. Because again as as an outsider you don't really pay any heed to uh uh what we call amun trust that you believe that and and it plays out by the way many many ways you can go to the in in some ways we saw recently in B in Beame tragic ways. If you look at how many Karedian will go to shelters will go to bomb shelters will really believe that it's dangerous they they really don't do they really believe in corona not really you know maybe they were correct there that's another question but the fact of the matter is they're outsiders looking in they and they have uh and to to to believe in any trust in the government and feeling that these people represent me in some way the answer is no again except for that the change that's taking place but the rank and file I said maybe 30% but let's say the 50 60% have basically zero trust in anything the government says >> what then what is the definition of a karedi Jew an ultraorththodox Jew in Israel >> so that's a great question and um you know many times I get asked the question with my institutions that that that uh we've developed here to bring into the army and many people ask me so they're not karedim anymore And I say no is not is not decided identified by whether you go to the army or not. So what does identify? So part of it is definitely cultural that you live in a certain culture. Um you know I once mentioned to somebody that my own son when he decided that he wanted to go to a program with the army. So he went to a uh to a uh datumi a national religious shashiva one of the stronger ones and to just visit there and he came back and saying wow I loved it there they believe all the things I believe were so much the same. I said are you going to go there then that's where you want to go? He said no I can't I can't go there. I said why not? He said they're they're different. It's a different culture. It's they tell different stories, they dress differently. So a lot of it is being a kared is cultural. Yeah, it is the color of keepa you wear etc. I would if someone were to ask me to define what constitutes a I'd say it's someone who does not compromise on halaka in Jewish law as it is brought in within the is really what decides how we act. We do not compromise on that and that is a means it's it's it's about your your adherence to Jewish law and it has something to do with with the cultural trappings again it became cultural but it really isn't so I think that you can have a who is part and you see more and more of it today as I mentioned the bricks of glass you have more and more who are becoming part of Israeli culture who follow the basketball and the sports does make a difference yes that means something.

[00:18:31]They know the basketball teams. They know the the soccer teams. They may know some of the music, you know, some maybe a little more, but there's they know, but they still considered because they dive in and they have a black hip, maybe wear a black hat, even though black hats are starting to become a little less prevalent, less so than it used to be in that in that uh population, but you see the difference. But they still 100% consider themselves.

[00:18:59]I like to call it what I am trying to establish is a new classification that's called right it's noted but it's a um but it's it's means also you're part of the not part of the culture also part of the workforce and you work in Tel Aviv and you work just like as an American would do right but at the other hand you believe in the dream and the miracle call of the state of Israel and you believe yes this is the shivat this is the return to Zion that the the prophet spoke about that the nim spoke about so but you're still because that that's where you you you know you live you live in the kared neighborhoods and etc but again you are part of technology and you are part of one of the things my does is students learn degrees in technology so you you and and you're part of the whole world at the same time as I always say like like we did in America an American what you did was you didn't build walls separating you and the culture but you had a line you have a line not a wall and that that's that's I think the difference you know it's interesting when when people like myself make aliyah uh we have to kind of decide do we want to join the ki world or the religious Zionist world and people kind of bemoone the fact that the the yu the yeshiva university alum that community doesn't really exist exist as a as a population in Israel. But what you're describing almost almost is that you know the the modern orthodoxy religious Zionist you know from the US meaning being completely committed to halaka and also but that's hard to call that right >> well it's it's an interesting question I think what we're what we're seeing happening now with the cultural divide starting to mesh is that these these the the strict definition is is going to be less and less accurate and when you talk about you're going to have to start including the more what some call the modern or the open or the new right who is and you're right it's uh one of the things I've done recently here in Bamesh is a couple years ago I opened a high school because because the many people which was astounding to me came and said we can't make aliyah Uh, why not? Is it family? Is it work? No, everything's fine. Why aren't you make aliyah education? Because of I said, "You're not coming to You're staying in America.

[00:21:40]You're not making aliyah." Because because you can't educate your children.

[00:21:43]They said, "Yes, because in America, my son when he graduates high school, he can go to college. He can go to yeshiva.

[00:21:50]He can go to work." In Israel, what they tell them in the kared world is, "Oh, no. the only thing you can do is go to yeshiva and then go to kal and you know maybe when you're 30 years old you know go sweep street somewhere and I don't he doesn't have those options and one of the things I opened is I opened a high school here because even the high schools that had briot that had you know the meticulation and some sort of secular studies weren't really serious about it and we're still telling the boys after 12th grade no don't don't go to work and so we opened a high school and that high school in in America's become were almost 20% in the high school because people many people f said to me that I wouldn't make aliyah but when we heard that now there's a new new institution that believes in Torah believes in being hakly and religiously strict and at the same time believes in going to the army believes in service believes in the workforce believes in being part of the general culture and changing and improving that general culture bringing our values into that culture which we I think historically it's always been the the Jewish way and to to believe in that and to to really not only believe in it but open institutions that serve it. So I think today that fear is gone and people and I think it's starting to hit home that more and more people you can make aliyah because that divide is starting now to to mesh together and grow. You know, the irony is that if tomorrow a 100,000 kared, you know, went and enlisted in the army, the army would be forced to transform overnight into a kared institution. What is stopping this this concept of a hezier yeshiva from really taking root in the kared world?

[00:23:37]So it's it's something uh you know you mentioned he has a yeshiva which is a yeshiva for karedi boys who want to want to learn seriously in yeshiva who also want to serve who also want to be part of the workforce who also want to earn a degree. So when I began the yeshiva I began it 15 years ago with eight boys.

[00:23:59]We're around 15 years later now and there over a thousand in the program now. So between my yeshiva and other yeshivas of the like that have that have since grown. So our yeshiva is is the the the founding yeshiva the I would say the flagship yeshiva but there are others a little different you know stripes and and and shades that have opened since then but uh over a thousand boys and it has grown tremendously since uh uh October since the 7th of October as more and more have made that courageous step they always knew it was right they knew it's what they wanted and I can't begin to tell you how many parents parents uh who send their children even to the most most uh what's called yeshiva katana who send their boys to high schools with no secular studies after they when they turn 17 18 they come to me and say we want so I said you know but you're so they say no no we're always been open to this we just not have the courage or no one ever opened the institution we never had the opportunity so it's very much what I found I took a little leap of faith but it's a build it and they will come. And uh I really believe that with the right support and we get very little support from the government because we're not the datumi we're not the don't really like us and the dati um you know don't really connect with us because they're culturally different as I explained. But we've done this all basically with very very little special support. We get the same support almost as any other educational institution. But for the government to look at this as a startup that really should get heavily invested into, they haven't. Um, once they change that, I I really do believe that within the next five years, the numbers will grow from 1,000 to 5 or 10,000. So, it's making a difference. It's really is a revolution. We call it the quiet revolution. The Jerusalem Post did a did a article on us a couple years ago and called it the quiet revolution. But I like to call it more the evolution. I always say evolutions not revolutions and it is an evolution that's taking place uh for all the reasons we've explained and um and it it will have its impact slowly maybe not as quickly as we would want but I really do believe in the next 5 10 years we will grow to 5 10,000 soldiers >> and can you just say that the the name of the yeshiva how do we learn more about this how do we follow >> so we're called bet Madrash midash derim the army actually took our name derim to include every single now who's in the army so it's called masul they call it now the masul the path of deraim but our yeshiva is deraim and like I said we we've ourselves grown from those eight students just our yeshiva has grown to over 300 in the in the last 15 years as I mentioned other yeshivas have opened so there over a thousand in the whole unit in the in the whole I think there are almost 15 now has the yeshivas and around a third of them are kravi and are again uh with uh with combat but uh deraim is is the flagship is the leader of the of the pack barak hashem and it's been uh it's been a tremendous tremendous merit to be able to to lead this this evolution in Israeli society and uh and and really education and and and and culture is changing and it's uh I think it's a tremendous tremendous tremendously important for Israeli society and as you mentioned I think it's a very important point for those coming on aliyah who want to feel more comfortable in the karedi world who American want that type of model in Israel that now exists we have provided it exists it's growing by leaps and bounds and uh you know the more support that we have for it, the more we can do.

[00:28:05]I just give you an example in Arnold and yeshiva. One of the things holding back our growth is our building. We have no space. We have no beds. We're already put we used to have three in a room in our dormatory. We now put six in a room in the dormatory. And the room did not get bigger. Okay? But it's six in a room. And we we turn away students because we have no space for them. We opened a new branch in in Jerusalem that's also full. there literally there's not you know a place to put another bed. So the more support we could have that we could build more as I said build it they will come and that will make the real difference.

[00:28:42]>> Wow. So the army wants more and more and more ultraorththodox to join the army.

[00:28:47]They're coming to your yeshiva to join the army. You have no choice but to turn them away because you don't have space.

[00:28:52]So that that obviously needs to be rectified.

[00:28:57]If if we could kind of zoom out for a moment. what you're doing is unbelievable. On the bigger picture, you know, this kind of fight in the public space of Israel about army service in the in the ultraorththodox world, do do you think that will be resolved? Is is the army in the in the ultra orthodox world going to make peace and and figure out a solution for all segments of the ultraorththodox community or is it only going to be through these smaller I mean your program is big but it's it's not on the national level grassroots initiatives that going that are going to build it up.

[00:29:34]>> So the answer to your question is there's there's reasons for pessimism there's reasons for optimism. The reason for pessimism is the politicians. I always say the problem with politics is it's full of politicians. So that that's a a problem. And I'm not so sure that the politicians really want to solve this issue. So they'll all talk about, yeah, we want to do and we're going to set a draft law. It it's not serious. I hate to say it, but it's not serious.

[00:30:02]They're playing a game. They're just biting their time until the next election is where they can sweep it under the carpet. they're not really interested in solving the problem because each one has their own stand and each one you know is is brought up and and and and look they have their constituency which they have to make happy. So no one's interesting in compromises, right? No one's interested in compromises. And therefore, you know, I've spoken in the in the va the foreign affairs and defense committee many times. And I've told them, I said, you know, I keep coming back here and hearing the exact same discussions. You guys haven't moved forward in an inch since the last two, three years, and I'm coming speaking here a couple times a year. I'm hearing the exact same things. And the answer is because no one's compromising. They just they what they do is they sit and scream at each other. And um for this change to take place, it's going to take place only grassroots. And I always tell people, don't speak to the leaders, speak to the people. The leaders are holding back the the movement, but the people are are surging it forward. And and it's going to take longer. And like I said, evolutions take time. I hope it won't be, you know, millions of years, right? But this evolution is is happening and it's happening at a very very quick pace growing by leaps and bounds and I think that's that's really where the the change will take place.

[00:31:24]Rabbit Carmen Gross, thank you so much for sharing all of that with us. I learned a lot and your work is really phenomenal here in Israel. Uh for all our viewers and supporters tuning in, if you'd like to learn more, check the description below to find out more about this really important program. Look in the chat. Thank you everyone for tuning in. We will be back with you tomorrow, 10 a.m. Eastern time, 5:00 p. p.m. here in Israel.