Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) is a harmful traditional practice involving the partial or total removal of external genital organs for non-medical reasons, affecting over 230 million women and girls globally. FGM causes severe physical and psychological harm including pain, infection, childbirth complications, and lifelong trauma, yet it persists due to cultural beliefs, misconceptions, and social pressures. Ending FGM requires respectful community engagement, education, and empowering girls to make informed choices about their bodies and futures. Men and boys play crucial roles in this effort by challenging harmful cultural practices and advocating for girls' rights.
Install our extension to search inside any video instantly.
Female Genital Mutilation Survivor Speaks | How I Survived FGM | Sally Cheserek & Leshan Kereto
Added:with me. [music] Awaken the best version of you. Unlock your true potential.
Empower your [music and singing] mind, body, and soul. Live with intentions.
Live with a purpose.
[music] Empower your dreams. Make it happen today. No matter your age, rise and shine. [music] Build boldly. [singing] Live authentically.
It's your [music] time to rise and shine.
Empower life with your petra. Awaken the [music] best version of you.
Oh, [music] [music] your journey starts today.
You've got one life to live. Love [music] yourself. Be kind to others.
Break free and let your spirit soar.
Empower life [singing] with Cleopatra will help you awaken [music] the best version of [singing] you.
Empower life [music] power. [music] Ooh.
Ooh. Ooh.
>> [music] >> Uh oh.
[laughter] [gasps] Hello everybody. Hello. Hello.
Hello. Good morning. Good afternoon.
Good evening. It looks like it's going to be an interesting show today. I can tell you now. So get prepared, guys, because the uh there's a lot of things going right. I'm not going to say anything negative. A lot of things are going perfectly well tonight, so it's all good. But I can see a lot of people have joined already. So, welcome, welcome, welcome to the show. Thank you, Robin. Robin says, "This is a horrible purge on society topic today." I know, Robin. I know. But it has to be said, darling. I know it has to be said. I'm I'm afraid it's not one of those happy, you know, golucky uh uh topics today, but you know, it's about time we talked about it, Robin. So um yeah welcome to everyone uh thank you for joining. Let me just go right to the point right because today we are not here to judge cultures but here to protect children and learn from those working to create a positive change. So let me just paint a story for you guys. Imagine being 11 years old.
Just 11 years old. You're excited. Your family is smiling. Your grandmother is calling you. Everyone tells you today is a special day. A day that will make you a woman. They say a day your family will celebrate. You trust them. I mean why wouldn't you? They are your family. But nobody tells you that your life is about to change forever.
Nobody tells you about the unbearable pain. Nobody tells you about the lifelong trauma. Nobody tells you about the physical and emotional scars that may never completely heal.
Sadly, this isn't just one little girl's story. According to UNICEF and the World Health Organization, more than 230 million women and girls are alive today, a lot of them that are alive today have gone through FGM, female genital mutilation.
That's more than the population of many countries combined.
Behind every statistics is someone's daughter, someone's sister, someone's wife, someone's mother.
Tonight, one courageous woman has chosen to break the silence. So, please stay with us because this conversation has the power to change lives.
Hello everybody. Good evening. Welcome to Empower Life with Cleopatra. This is the show where we empower minds, transform lives, and tackle the conversations that many people are afraid to have. If today is your first time of joining us, I wish you a very warm welcome. You just welcome to the family. We are delighted you're here with us. And to my amazing royals who have always been here and who are still joining, thank you so much. Thank you for your continued love and your support and your encouragement, your prayers, your commitments, your shares, your likes, and everything else that you do, your comments, and your unwavering love.
Thank you so much. You are the reason this community continues to grow. And if you're watching on YouTube or Facebook or Tik Tok, wherever you're watching this from right now, if you haven't subscribed already, please do well to subscribe, okay? Like it, share it, and comment as well. All right? and I because obviously I would like to invite you to become a member of the family.
Okay. Now before we begin tonight's program, I'd like to take a few seconds to, you know, do something special today because um today happens to be my mom's birthday. [laughter] Today is my mother's birthday. And uh mom, I know you're watching right now.
If you're not watching, where are you?
Because you did say you're going to watch. So mom, happy birthday. Mom, happy birthday. Thank you for your unconditional love, your sacrifices, your wisdom, your constant prayers.
You've been one of God's greatest blessings in my life. Not just for me, for people that you uh you've been in their lives. All right. So, may the Lord continue to bless you with good health, strength, joy, peace, and many, many more beautiful years. Mom, I love you.
So please guys, my royals, everybody, please help me wish my mom, my amazing mom, a very happy birthday. She's 82 today.
[laughter] Happy birthday.
>> So let us begin.
Tonight's program is unlike many of the discussions we've had before. Some conversations entertain us. I mean, Robin said it earlier this evening when he joined the show. We said this is not one of those you know it's a very sad conversation. Yeah. You know some conversations educate us like this is going to do tonight though and there are many conversations there are other conversations that you know we have and um it's it's it saves lives and this is definitely one of those conversations that hopefully we hope will save some women's lives some little girls. Okay.
So, um I'm going to attempt to play this video and I hope it's going to be okay.
Uh because we've had some interesting uh test runs already today. So, bear with me. Let me see if I can play this video.
Uh it's from UNICEF.
Let me see.
Heat. Heat.
>> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] >> All >> [music] >> right.
[music] >> [music] >> Heroes [music] are Right. Right. Okay.
So, let's go back now, guys. I I hope you saw that. Um it's amazing the sort of things that um women go through in different parts of Africa, but not just Africa, but other parts of the world. So, I'll continue um with this. Right. So, we're talking about female genital mutilation, often referred to as FGM.
Now I know that for some people this subject may feel uncomfortable.
You may even wonder why are we talking about this because silence has never protected anyone. Education does, awareness does, compassion does, and courageous conversations like these ones can make the difference between another child becoming a victim or becoming protected. So what is FGM? You saw the video I just played just now. For anyone hearing this term for the first time, the female genital mutilation refers to the partial or total remover or injury of a girl's external genital organs for some reason for for reasons that are absolutely nothing to do with medicine.
There are no health benefits to this whatsoever.
Instead, it can lead to severe pain, serious infection, difficult giving birth, um, psychological trauma, and lifelong complications as well. Many girls undergo this procedure before reaching their teenage years. Some are even younger. And perhaps the saddest part of this is that many of them have absolutely no idea what's about to happen. And we're going to hear Stal's story um in a minute. Uh they trust the adults around them and that trust is often broken forever. So why does this matter now? Because sometimes people hear about FGM and they think, "Oh, that's something that happens somewhere somewhere else." But the truth is this is a global issue. The video we played just now, it says that more than 230 million women and girls alive today have experienced FGM. I said before, millions more remain at risk every single year.
So, think about that for a moment. 230 million. That's not just a number.
That's 230 individual stories. 230 million individual stories.
230 million families. 230 million lives forever changed. Tonight, one of those women is here with us. Not just a statistic. She's not just a headliner or a number, but as a human being, as a survivor, and an advocate determined to make sure that no other little girl has to endure what she did.
And that brings me to my guests this evening. I honestly couldn't think of two better people to help us to have this conversation um today. Our first guest is Sally Chesar. Sally is the founder and director of Light a Girl Initiative, a grassroots organization in Kenya. By the way, they are both joining you from Kenya right now. They are joined from Kenya under the most awkward and uncomfortable circumstances. Okay? And they're still here. You know, a lot has happened. There's power cut somewhere and then Sally's son is also in a hospital as we speak. But this is so important that she still joined despite that. So honestly I cannot tell you how grateful I am Sally and to Leon for this. But Sally is a dedicated um is dedicated to this course to end female genital mutilation and child marriage as well and gender based violence. She's a secondary school teacher and advocate for girls rights and perhaps most importantly for tonight's discussion an MGF and FM survivor.
Instead of allowing her past to define her, she has transformed her pain into purpose.
Today, she works tirelessly at alongside school, parents, communities, and local leaders, helping to protect girls and empower them across Kenya.
Sally, thank you so much for accepting my invitation. Thank you for joining.
We're honored to have you here. Thank you so much, Sally.
And then we have Leon. Leon is an award-winning humanitarian founder and CEO of Torto Africa, a global youth leader and one of Africa's leading voices advocating for gender equality, sexual and reproductive health in girls rights uh in really health and rights really and the elimination of harmful traditional practices.
This work has earned him national and international recognition including Princess Diana awards, the human rights defender of the year award and presidential recognition for his efforts to end female genital mutilation. Sean, it's a privilege to welcome you to life.
My royals, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome my guests. They are so honestly thank you both for being here.
Okay, Lean. Um, let me start with you.
As a matter of fact, I'll play your video first and then I'll start with you if that's okay. Let me play your video real quick and then I'll ask you the first question.
>> My name is Joshua KTO.
We do community work [singing] in terms of supporting girls and women for their education. Organization is called TTO Africa which means helping Africa.
>> [music] >> And our work is to provide for support for the girls [music] to be able to continue with their schooling without any problems. Out of all those, [music] many of the girls have been uh subjected to fate genital mutilation.
Hello, I'm Ti Singa from Marani.
When I went to [music] school, I joined risk for sales club was coming in our school and teach us more in productive health and planting of trees. He teach us safe, teenage pregnancy and early marriages. The time he was sitting us if I have knew there [music] before but it's still okay because now I can teach my fellow girls the effects of teen pregnancy and early marriages.
We have been able to rescue them and brought them to our rescue center here in Nartown where we normally keep them you know make them stay away from the families that probably are putting them at risk of undergoing FTM. [music] [music] Hallelujah. [music] [music] [music] This is a very very important um work that we do because it gives the [music] girls a future. It gives the girls an opportunity to work for their dreams and be as [music] the change makers in their communities.
[music] [music] We've had a lot of girls who who've come to [music] require our support uh and now reaching out to try and see whether they can uh get scholarship they can get.
[music] So many of the girls uh require support and we are continue to pray [music] and working together to see whether we can get more support for us to add some of the girls to the program because they are very needy and our criteria has always been to support the needy [music] girls. We don't look at performance but we give everybody a chance. We give everybody a chance to be in school so long as they need the support and we hope that through this we will be able to change these families. My name is Unice.
I learn to be a doctor in future.
>> My name student from Kenyan. [music] My name is I grow up. I would like to be a salary.
I when I grow up I want to be a nurse.
Many of these families uh without uh a future to these children would really face a lot of hardships. So we want to support these children that they can come back and support their younger siblings that they can come back and become teachers. They can come back and [music] become role models in these families and together we can produce strength families.
[music] Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. So, this is one of the things that um Leon or Joshua [laughter] does. So, um Leon, before we hear Sally's deeply personal story, I'd like to begin with you. You've dedicated your life to protecting girls and eliminating female genital mutilation across Africa.
You worked with governments and traditional leaders in young people and international organizations and communities that have practiced FGM for generations. So before we hear one survivor story, help our viewers understand something. Why are conversations like tonight's one so important? You know, you've dedicated your life to ending harmful traditional practices and things like that. So why are these um sort of conversations very important now?
>> Yes, thank you so much. Um these conversations are extremely important because um the girls who are facing the risk of female genital mutilation um are being faced with extreme health risks and this is a great concern because this is actually where poverty is coming from because then uh once a girl has undergone FGM they are uh broken out from their normal routine. Therefore they have to drop out of school. Many of them are married off in the ages between 13 or 15 years old. And these uh uh young girls are expected to give birth even despite all those health risks.
Then they they're the ones who really run our families in many of these communities. Many of these families run because mothers are running them and they are the ones who provide food.
They're the ones who provide um you know uh uh you know income that's needed and um once the life is cut cut uh you know short in terms of uh you know the risk that comes there is a heavy financial burden that comes with it where now a girl has to uh seek treatment for example in terms of um the risks of fistula some of them fistula others have maternal complications others have to deal with infections or koids coming in um especially from their uh private parts and this is another financial uh burden and even apart from that they're unable to get a job because when you drop out of school at 13 really there's not really a living that you can make and many of them end up in families uh because a family uh that is able to accept to marry a 13year-old girl in in my context most of them will actually be a a a polygamous family. So in many of the men that we've seen is it's a polygamous men who are open to marrying uh young girls who are between the ages of 13 to 15 years old. And therefore when you go there you there's barely any information about sexual and reproductive health. There is barely any information about family planning. So those children those young girls end up having many children. That becomes another financial burden. And so um and this even worsens the situation because then what we've seen with research is that families whose parents have have been educated are less likely to have their girls undergo female genital manipulation or child marriage. And so I'm I'm I've been working on this because initially I started by trying to solve poverty in general and you know program uh development but I realized poverty was large and I had to make my own contribution. um that is going to help. And once a young girl called Joyce gave me that perspective of how once a young girl has under FD and everything changes, she can't get a job and she's married off into a family. I realized this is actually a very important entry point that we can use to advocate against poverty in general but also to save their lives to help young girls live up to their full potential because girls who've undergone FGM sometimes cannot even listen in class because we have just put them you know from from childhood to womanhood. So they believe they are a woman and so even some of their teachers have not undergone FDM.
So they'll be like they will despise them and that is not only self-destructing but is also going to lead them into a very tough trajectory where they're going to have to uh you know face all these risks and that is going to be generational and that is how poverty trickles down into into into these families and we are seeing um uh mothers who who barely had information about uh sexually reproductive health raising their children. How are we expecting them to teach them about sexual and productive health if they didn't enjoy their childhood? Which other child will enjoy their childhood?
So that is why uh I'm I'm working to advocate against women and child marriage because this is actually what transforms into gender based violence because once you're married into a man who doesn't respect the rights of girls and women, there's going to be a very high case of gender based violence because they own you. They bought you.
they you are a child and in my culture um a woman is also if you say a woman and a child it's the same it's the same means they take you out as a child and also um [clears throat] uh once gender based violence is normalized in a family that is what we seeing as femicide eventually that is what leads into femicide and we've seen extreme high cases of femicide in Kenya going up and up because we didn't get it right when these children were young and therefore um uh this is why we are seeing this health risk uh coming up and this uh gender based violence cases going up. So I feel like if we approach it from the end of female gender mutilation then we allowing a girl to remain in school allowing her to remain uh educated and empowered and therefore she's able to make better choices.
>> Perfect. Perfect. Thank you very much.
That's quite Yeah, that's something. Um, I really appreciate what you've just said and one thing I hope our viewers take away tonight is that conversations like this are never about attacking a culture or judging communities. They are about protecting children. They are about preserving dignity. They're about ensuring that every little girl has the opportunity to grow up healthy, safe, and free from harm. So, we'll come back to you shortly. Um, Leon, thank you so much because I I'd love to hear more about the incredible work that you're doing. Um but first let's hear from someone whose life has or what was changed forever. Obviously she's a you know she she's now an advocate against FGM. So once again Sally thank you for joining us. First of all I'd just like to acknowledge your courage Sally. Um, sharing deeply personal experiences isn't easy, especially experiences that have involved that involve childhood trauma because many women never tell anyone what happened to them, right?
Some carry that pain for decades and others just take you to their graves.
But tonight, you chose, you've chosen courage, you've chosen honesty, and you've chosen to speak not just for yourself, but for millions of women around the world whose voices have never been heard. So, for that, I sincerely thank you. Right. Okay. So, I'm just going to give you space to speak freely.
Take your time. Share as much as you want to share. Okay? There's no rush.
We're just here to listen. So, whenever you're ready, Sally, the floor is yours.
Please share your story.
Thank you so much, Cleopatra. Thank you so much our viewers and happy birthday to your mother.
>> Thank you.
>> Yes. So um [clears throat] like you've been told my name is Sales and um I don't know if I have that courage but I'm also very grateful that I have this opportunity to speak with you this uh evening.
Um this my story is a story that I may not have told you know in a platform like this.
Maybe I have told it in bits, you know, a little information here and there, but I've never shared my story before a group of people. And um tonight, yes, I am here. So, um where do I start?
Let me start by saying that uh most of the time I have come to know that FGM is a silencing tool. The [ __ ] has used it to silence women in so many ways and um in my community in fact to do what I'm doing right now is a taboo to sit before I don't know whoever is watching. uh the platform could be huge is something that one shouldn't do like why are you telling about our culture to our people that don't even appreciate you know that don't know the culture and so most of the time you are made to keep quiet about what you went through to be silent and you know just bear it because everybody has born it courageously strongly silently without a voice, without complaining.
And um at some point it sounds like those of us who've come out to tell our story or even talk, it looks like we are complaining. We are not doing what we're supposed to do. That is bear it with a lot of um you know, silence and stoicism and courage. And so um I'll I'll I'll start by just telling our viewers that um like you've been told my name is Sally and um I was cut at the age of 11.
Um at the age of 11 most of the time you don't know what exactly happens at the age of 11. I mean sometimes you don't even know if you're really a boy or a girl. You know you're just there. you're a child and you're playing and life is happy given the circumstances that you know depending on the background that you are from and so for myself I was uh raised uh by my parents my step uh dad and my mom and um I was in a family full of love until one time uh people come people I got to know that were my uncles from my biological family and they wanted to take me home because there was a very um there was a major event and I was supposed to be part of it. So I really didn't did not understand what it was all about and um I just remember they came my mom received them they were fed and then after that my mom was like I will I will come with her just to go. So I did not know what exactly they were coming to do and why I was supposed to go. So when uh after they had left my mom told me that um the the the people who had come were my uncles and they had been sent by my grandmother my my grandmother from my mother's side and even my grandmother from my father's side and they wanted me at home because you know girls were being initiated. I mean that is the term initiation. So the girls are being initiated into uh you know adulthood and I was supposed to be part of it. So I I was like okay so must I be like you know I did not know what I was supposed to do at that moment but something that my mom did at that time was like she just looked at me and told me um my my middle name is Jeff Chumba and she tells me Jeff Chumba I am going to to support you uh just to make a decision. Do you want to go h get cut or would you want to stay? So we we we have a lady from my own community even from my own village who's really fought female genital mutilation. She's been an MP. She is honorable Jik Limo Lean must know her.
So uh through through through the work that she had done at that time she used to hold like camps for girls talk to them and uh that so but then I knew it was for families that were you know good the families that were doing well and the those children who go to church. So my mom asks me if I am if I want to go join them or I want to go to to to get cut with the other girls. So at that moment, >> yeah, I'm sure she'll come back. I'm sure it's just the it's just the reception, so she'll be okay. Um, while while we're waiting for her to come back, I will quickly give this shout out to the my royals who've joined. Nema J pos not I'm sorry if I didn't pronounce that name properly but thank you so much you says Sally light a girl initiatives you know so thank you so much for joining O thank you so much for joining she says beautiful topic this will enlighten women of the danger there is there is a law against it in Nigeria this is purely violence against the girl child so there is a okay because Oser is a lawyer actually. So yes, she would she would know. She she's she's a renowned she's she's quite Yeah, she's a lawyer.
She's a barristister in Nigeria. So she would know. So but so you said there is a law against this in in in Nigeria. So why do we still have it? Because I you know u I hear that it's still being practiced in some parts of Nigeria. As a matter of fact, I was having a conversation with my mom yesterday and she was she was saying that um yeah, she she uh she she knows about it because um a lot of she knows a lot of people who who who who went through it.
All right. She knows a lot of people who went through it. So if that's the case, then why do so many why why why is this still so common?
if it's something that um you know has been is been it you know we've gotten rid of why is this still come on silent you've joined us thank you very much for joining us once again let me stop sharing this let me stop sharing this okay and go back here where am I okay well whatever that is is fine Um now oh okay Sally um you were saying please carry on.
>> Sorry uh for that disruption. So um so at that moment when I asked that I was told that like all girls my age are going to get cut and I you know I was just like fine let's go. So I knew it was a procedure like I don't know I just knew it was something so small I didn't have to get to worry and of course there is the hype that comes when you when I remember when I got to my grandmother's house she hugged me and she was even crying and she was like thank you for coming you've taken away the shame from you know me no one is now going to pester me thank you so much for just arriving we have waited for you your home couldn't wait to noh I was like why all this I mean I just thought it was, you know, it I didn't know it was that big. So, it was a community affair.
Everyone was happy and everyone was like, "Ah, you've come. Finally, you're here." You know, so there we we are. And with all that, of course, FGM in my community is a community affair. You don't get cut alone. Especially during my time, it was not something that you're getting cut alone. We were over 200 girls who are being cut and um so it was like there was a lot of dance, there was a lot of singing, there was a lot of food and there was even drinking alcohol for you know people who take alcohol and all that and you know we're just there wondering why am I here can this thing end and so the following day like you prepared an evening uh before where there is a lot of preparation there is a lot of singing and There's a lot of being told you have to be courageous.
You have, you know, you have to go through this. Your family owner is, you know, resting on your on your shoulders.
You're supposed to make sure that you don't make anyone, you know, feel like you haven't done this in the right way.
You're supposed not to cry. You're supposed to, you know, and then yeah, there is that anxiety, anxiety, there is a nervousness. And we go through it. And so the following day the day the Dday day comes and so it is done. And now in my community again, when you when when either boys or girls are being cut, it's always like you're all put in a long line and all of you supposed to just be naked without clothes and just having something like, you know, something like a I don't know in in Kishah we call it a lesso something that can just cover you from the back. And so the whole community is there and just watching you, you know, displaying yourself nakedly and know it's like you don't understand but this is what how it's supposed to happen. It's how it's supposed to be and of course most of the time no one talks about it. It's like it should end at that go there look and that is the end. So we got through it and um uh when we got to the time itself it was not the same. It wasn't what was being talked about. It was women. Women that you know my own grandmother was like my grandmothers were there. My grandmother's like I even had three of them. My grandmother from my father's side, my grandmother from my mother's side and her sister who was the cutter herself.
So when they were there and of course anyone who was related to to to to me you know my aunties everyone my mother was there and all of them were there and was like holding you down and spreading your legs and you know being cut and it wasn't a one minute affair again it wasn't a you know it wasn't 2 minutes I don't know how long it took I remember screaming myself out I remember you know cursing everyone even telling my grandmother I'll never listen to you again. I'll never even talk to you. Like my mom, how did you even bring me here?
I wish you, you know, you had told me this was what was going to happen. And it happens anyway. And there is nothing you can do. Of course, at that age, you have women holding you down from your, you know, your shoulders, others holding your legs. So, you are just like there.
And um, >> did they give you any seditive at all?
Something to help numb the pain? No way.
No.
It does happen very early in the morning. You're just taken to the river to be washed with very cold water hoping that that would do the number.
And so there you are. You just have to bear it. I remember some other girls of course passed out.
Other girls bled. I remember some girl who who was left in the hospital for quite some time because she bled and bled. I remember other girls who were you know part of it who were cut more than once because the woman who cut them did not do it properly and so another one had to come do it again because wasn't done in the right way and to me and she did it right the first time that she didn't have to redo the uh the the process again and so I was told you're just a young girl you're going to heal very fast I mean you're still your your your your flesh can easily heal as compared to someone who is grown. So there you are.
And of course uh other than the fact that it the the pain was there, you always told that this is what everyone has gone through. Your grandmother went your great grandmother, your grandmother, your mother, you know, everyone that is doing this is not doing it because you know you they're just doing it to you. It was done to them and it's something that is going on and on.
So there are you don't have to you to say you know sometimes when we were together we'd share and tell how the pain was but the thing is it's happened to all of us you know we I don't know if it's called trauma bonding but we bond because this is something that was done to to all of us and so as um we continued of course the way we looked at life did not remain the same the way I'd see my grandmother there is always that fear like you know I don't know what can happen next. You don't know what what this person will do. But you see, they're so happy. I remember I have another another grandmother who was part of this whole thing. I just met her some 3 years ago and she came to my house and she was like, "Ah, oh, I have missed you so much. Look at this girl. I am the one who cut her and she was so happy that she she cut me." you know it is it's something that the community have you know they have cherished it's part of the culture it's part it's part of our identity it's like this is something that has been you know happening and no one no one would would would be saying it wasn't right so uh going through that and feeling what I felt and having my self-esteem you know immediately after I came from that place and went back to go to school my selfest team wasn't the same again. I wasn't that girl who was so cheerful. I wasn't that girl who was running around in class. I went there and everyone is watching you to see how you're behaving because now you're an adult. You're supposed to behave like an adult. The way you're speaking, you're not supposed to just speak anyhow because you speak they tell you why you speaking like someone who has not been cut. In fact, there is a specific name for girls who have not been cut and it's derogatory. It's a name that is used for these girls who have decided not to get cut or who are yet to get cut. So you told even in class you're not supposed to play with this. These ones are little children. You you are now a grown woman.
You're supposed to be behaving like a grown woman. So the way you view your father also changes because now your father is a is a man. He's an adult and you're also an you know an adult. You can't be jumping around and saying this or doing that. And owing to my young age of course I was able to just you know continue with my studies and also the fact that I didn't know what exactly was happening at that time and I didn't know that there was preparation of getting married because I'm just a young child. How do I prepare myself for such things? And I thank God of course because uh my mom again still kept on that. Of course, we were going on with school. So, I have many classmates who dropped out of school after that. They just went on. They didn't get to secondary school. They got married and um and that that's the end of their lives. Like it just ended like that. And right now they're struggling with you know of course their families and I can't say that of course everyone struggles but then it's different of course when you you know that you would have had something different.
So when I went through that and through my primary, I went I remember going through my high school and when I get I got to my high school, it was a national school and um we had girls from all over the country. So I I I am there and um I don't know how I I I talked about FGM and someone was like what your cat I mean like you you come from a community which cuts girls. So I was like so this thing is not even good you know it's not something that someone should be talking about it you know in my village I told now you have gone through it you're now a woman you know they are hyping you with all the good things and now you go to a community to a place where no one you know they're like how did that even happen and so it started hitting me again that okay so what was done to me wasn't right and uh again it withdrew me from just being the person that I was and uh I remember what helped me at that time was like I'm kind of outgoing still. So I met a priest and talked to to the priest about this and uh he prayed with me, talked with me. I think he counseledled me and uh through the counseling that I received from him, he asked me to surrender my pain, you know, to God and to Jesus and also everything that I went through to forgive my parents, forgive my my grandmother, you know, everyone who was involved in all this. So I went through that and it did help me through high school because even then I became a leader in high school and transitioning to university, I didn't know. So, uh, being part of, uh, at home, of course, I I I didn't know what I would do because most of the time, like I said, in my community, if you've been cut, you're not supposed to talk about it. You're not supposed to be telling people. You're not supposed to be saying this and this and this happens because you do that. You're told it's a taboo. The women are going to curse you.
You this and this will happen to you.
So, like there are consequences. And so you fear talking to anyone or telling anyone that this is something that I have gone you know I have gone through or this is something that happens in my community. So then I didn't have I didn't get opportunity to talk to anyone of course for fear of being you know uh being being ostracized by own community like why are you doing this everyone went through this thing so I kept quiet but what I knew I would do was I tell my sisters I have younger sisters I'm the first one I tell them please no one should go through what I went through because there is pain I just told them what I could do within you know the boundaries of what I knew was safe from what I was told not to say.
So, I tell them to like they should just say no to it. I'd also tell my mother that I I should be the last one and no one else in my family should be cut. And my mother was Yeah, she she got she she she used to go to church, of course, she still goes to church up to this moment.
And she accepted and none of my sisters have been cut except for myself. So, I knew like, yeah, this thing is possible.
But now like um other than the fact that I was able to you know help my sisters not to go through it, I have a cousin who was raised by my grandmother, the one that you know had me cut. And um this this girl stayed with my grandmother and I talked to her and told her please don't get cut. Don't listen to what grandma is saying.
And she said yes, she wouldn't listen to her because I told her, "Of course, the effects of MGM, it can make you drop out of school. You may even go back, you know, you may even, you know, uh perform poorly. You can do this and that and that." And then my grandmother talks to her and tells her, "Huh, you're allowing Jeff Chumba to lie to you. I cut her and she was very little and she went to school. She was the best in her class.
She has gone to high school. She has gone to the university. She's now her teacher. So why why why do you want her to lie to you that you should not get cut? So she she she really convinced that young girl and told her you must get cut because unless you have reasons of course of dropping out of school then you should tell us but that should not be a reason. And you can imagine my own story, the story that I've carried and I'd never shared it you know to anyone has now been used against me by my own grandmother like why what are you telling us anyway? So uh I having having gone through all that of course it's it's like I I started questioning what is happening in my community. Uh these are the woman women in my community who've been uh who have not been cut.
they are vocal. They were able to speak about this uh FGM. But for me and of course so many others, the survivors like myself, we couldn't speak. Even up to this time, there are so many women out there who can't tell what happened to them. Uh I am lucky to have maybe have had not so many challenges, but there are so many women even right now in this hospital where I am with my son.
If you go to their statistics and you hear the the amount of cases that women have, you know, you will just be shocked and no one tells you know tells anyone about it. It's just the statistics that are noted down by the hospital. They know so and so came for, you know, some surgery because there was something that happened to them. So and so came because of this. But of course, you know, the confidentiality of the hospital and it's what they should be doing. So out there survivors are keeping quiet and they are suffering in silence. Out there girls are you know girls who are cut at that young age are carrying trauma that they are not sharing it with anyone and no one is creating even that space to let them speak what they've gone through. Uh the other day I just met a classmate and a girl who was also cut like myself. Now she is a mother and when we were speaking with her she told me she would still cut her own daughter.
I was shocked. I asked her why would you cut your own daughter after going through what she she we went through even after you know everything. Why would she still do that at this moment?
And she says she'd still catch her because uh that is what happens when you're being initiated to what to adulthood. It's a right of passage. And so she has to like be courageous and go through it like everyone went through it. So you see it's something that is you know deeply rooted. It's something that we've been socialized. we've been you know it's been normalized in our community and uh of course there is a lot of work that is being done uh by CSOS like ours and um everyone but still they we have a lot of women especially those who are cut themselves who would still say yes I am going to cut my daughter for reasons of course of acceptance for reasons of marability for reasons sometimes there are even myths out there they telling you that you smell if you don't get cut.
Yes, they'll tell you things like you will be speaking as someone who is not mature if you don't get cut. You know, there are just reasons that do not have any ground to cut a woman. And so uh taking this story of course my own story and uh uh moving on with it. And uh after I remember I got in 2022 I had an opportunity to attend a survivors uh of of FGM uh uh um kind of a seminar training organized by an organization that is called um the guy generation. We went and we had a whole week where we just uh were together with other survivors from 22 hotspot counties. Uh and we we were able to get a safe space to tell our stories. Now that we were away from our communities, we were away from the people who would judge us. We away from you know our people who think that we're doing the wrong thing. We sat together. We cried about our past. We cried about you know the pain we went through. We we spoke to each other about what we've gone through and uh from there there was a lot of you know resolving like I am not going to let some other girls just to go through what I went through I can use my voice in as much as I was cut I will still stand out and say this is not what should happen to other girls up to this time even uh if I do a post on social media maybe in Facebook and talk about survivor being a survivor someone goes like Who told you you called a survivor?
You cannot be you know you know you can't even call yourself a survivor. Why are you even using such names on your on yourself? Someone other women even tell you why are you even talking about our culture in front of you know in in in in such a manner. So I we we came back and I came back to the community and I knew I my voice had to be heard. Another girl had to get the agency and this girl had to get what I did not have that if their grandmother is going to ask them whether they want to get cut or their mother will be asking will be asking them do you want to get cut or you don't want to get cut this girl will make an informed choice she won't be like me who will be asking about another girl she will be asking about her own future she will be standing for her own you know herself and say I am not going to get cut because she has the information. So that's how it came back and alongside five other four other ladies we we we formed a a grassroot organization a CBO called light a girl initiative. Light a girl initiative is just a it's a CBO. We work in the grassroot where we come from a community where we've seen our girls go through uh what we went through. Some of us are survivors and others aren't. And we just wanted to let them know that there is a sister here who's walked where you you've been. There is a sister here who went through what you went through what you may have gone through or there is a sister here who went through something that you were not supposed to go through.
And so we go around uh to schools, we create safe spaces especially in schools where we just allow girls to we talk to girls and uh we give them the opportunity to talk about you know what is affect them affecting them at home.
We tell them about SR we provide dignity kids. We also help those who are who have problems. Sometimes it's really difficult. You go to a school and you talk to a girl and they're sitting for their international examinations and then from there the these girls end up uh coming to you they say I have finished my school and there is no school fees so you have to look for someone who knows someone because we don't have money and we are doing a lot of um voluntary work so we go out there and we talk to them some other times we also go to churches just youth meetings in churches in our local community and we talk to these youth after the pastor has preached or the priest has finished we ask them to give us an opportunity to talk to the to the youth. Uh we also volunteer when we we go to women's meetings when we have seminars for women we go there and we talk to these women because we know the moment a woman is able to make a decision to protect her daughters then these daughters are going to be protected for sure. So we go out there and we talk to girls and we we we talk to the youth and we we do this work just hoping that one girl even one girl is going to make an informed choice to say no to female genital mutilation, yes to her education, yes to a brighter future, yes to you know a future that is free from the pain that you live with it. Not just that day like up to this moment if I am to recreate the day I'd end up breaking down I'd end up crying because see it wasn't something that a girl ought to bear at that you know age. So we we do this and um every time we do this because we know a girl is going to make a good decision one day. A girl is going to say what I said that it ends with them. When we get those girls who are survivors, they are young and they have been cut at that age, we talk to them and we tell them it will end with them that if they have a little sister at home, that sister of theirs is not going to get cut again. And it it it works. It works because we've had times when you have a girl who tells you the mother comes and says, "Sally, what have you done to our girls?" And they came home yesterday and they said that they don't want to be cut. And you know you feel like the information has gotten home, the information has reached the the the parents and it is going on and on. And so the reason why I always have the courage to come out here and tell what I I have gone through and even tell more is because I want to see a girl one day have agency just to make an informed choice and say this is not what I want.
I love my culture. I love my people. In fact, it's a very beautiful culture, but it's not defined by violence against women and girls. Thank you.
>> Wow.
Let's just allow this to sink in for a minute.
Wow.
Uh thank you so much for that. Let me quickly just say hello to those who haven't given a shout out. Nicole, thank you for joining. Uh, Os says, "I'm getting you loud and clear." Happy birthday to Queen Mom. Ryan says, "Thank you." Um, Jackie Jack Jacqueline Coach um says, "Sally is a powerful voice when it comes to advocating to end FGM and other forms of GBU, which is obviously we can see that. We can see that very well articulated. Um, Sally and James Kibet says, "It's an amazing topic that will continue to enlarge and empower young girls and women. Keep up the great work, Sally.
Following live from Nairobi, Kenya.
Thank you so much for those who joined live from Kenya and other parts of the world." Now, Sally, uh, thank you so much. Thank you for trusting us with something so personal.
And as I listened to you, I wasn't listening to statistics. I wasn't listening to headlines. I was listening to an 11 year old girl. A child. A child who trusted the adults around her. A child who believed she was doing the right thing.
A child who had absolutely no idea how much her life was about to change. Your story reminds us that behind every global statistics, there is a human face, a family, a childhood, a future.
And that's why conversations like this matter, my royals. Not because we're trying to shock people, but because knowledge can protect the next generation.
>> For sure.
>> And Sally, thank you for becoming that voice that your younger self never had.
So, if you're finding this program um educational tonight, please don't keep it to yourself. Help us to raise awareness and click the like button, subscribe if you haven't done so already. Share this program with your family, your friends, your church, your community, which is what Sally and Joshua are doing um all over the place, you know, and across the world because one conversation can change someone's understanding forever. And if this is your first time watching um empower life with Cleopatra, we'd love you to become part of this family where we have honest conversations. So Sally, there were so many moments in your story that touched my heart. even when you were when we were talking about it first on the phone and then when we you were talking about it again this um just now um I found myself writing you know notes in my head because so many thoughts were running through my mind and I'm sure many of our viewers are asking exactly the same questions if you're if you're comfortable please I'd like to explore a little story you know this story a little bit more because one of the things that stayed with me throughout your story was this idea of being given a choice because I remember when you were talking over the phone and even you said it again just now you said you were asked whether you wanted to do it but you were only 11 years old so looking back now as an adult do you believe an 11year-old child is ever capable of giving a truly informed consent to something as lifech changing as FGM >> no and At the age of 11, a girl's mind or any child's mind is not even in any position to make any decision.
>> Mhm. you know the even the decision to just have clothes on, put clothes on, even the decision to, you know, do tiny things, even like just going to school, they haven't had that, you know, ability, you know, the, you know, having that ability to have any form of consent. And so at the age of 11 being asked whether I wanted to go through FGM or not, no it wasn't that wasn't it. It's not an informed choice and no girl ought to be given that you know to ought to be given to to be made to make a decision like myself. And that is why every day I I I want to talk to these young girls, these girls who are still in primary school because at that age they don't even know what FGM is. When we go to to their schools, most of the time we tell them which ones are their private parts. So you can imagine if they're still learning where no one should touch and being asked to give a consent of whether they should be cut or not. No, they don't have the ability.
And of course FGM as it is there is no consent that anyone should give however the age.
>> Yes.
>> Absolutely. I mean um I mean would you based on what happened fact that uh you know your aunties your mom your family really all knew this and they didn't really prepare your mind.
>> How does that prepare I mean do do you feel like you can trust how did that affect your trust issues? I guess you know did you did you feel like you can trust them again after what happened or did you look at them the same way?
um most most times because at first it felt like everyone was doing this thing, everything everyone was being done to.
But I remember particularly my aunt, one of my aunties who came immediately after they had finished the whole process and I was there, you know, uh with the pain and all that. She came and she was like, "Huh, who is this who touched my my my knees? Who was that person who did this?
Hm. Can can you tell me who it was? And she told me and she was like, "If I were here, I would have protected care of you." And later I kind of felt what she was saying. And it wasn't true because she had just come like everyone else.
She had brought food. She knew what was going to happen to me. And so from there, it felt like no, these people, what they just telling me is fake. It's just on the on the on the on the surface. But in real sense, they knew what I was going through and no one would have helped me not to go through it.
>> If anything, up to this moment, going to my own biological home, the place where that cut happened has been so difficult.
Even people who come from my own, you know, uh, village, they know that I rarely go home. And sometimes I've been asking myself, why don't I go there? And it it hits me that it is what happened you know at that time and it still like makes me feel like no it's not a safe place the people who are there they are not the kind of people I should be trusting you know so it's like changed in as much as I still trust them there is still that cautious kind of trust >> that's I mean it's a traumatic experience you know you know this is something people don't realize right studies have shown that women who undergo FGM are at greater risk of anxiety, depression, and post-traumatic stress disorder. So, when we talk about FGM, we're not only talking about physical injuries. We're talking about emotional injuries that may last for decades or even a lifetime.
Yeah. So, you also spoke about something that I think many people never considered. You said life after FGM was never the same. uh and it's never the same not just physically but emotionally, socially and even psychologically.
So can you tell us how FGM affected your teenage years, your confidence and the way you saw yourself as a young woman?
>> So like I said uh at first I was so playful.
I really had a voice that I didn't care who who had or who didn't hear. I was just there and I was just a girl and a happy one for that matter recreating things. I remember being with my sisters and doing things you know everything that was there but after coming out of that place my confidence changed my self-esteem in fact changed and it happens that in the class where among the girls we were few of us were cut and I was one girl who after that I was like um I think this thing should not have happened to me but I had other girls who were so happy and they were proud of what had happened they were walking with the other girls who had been cut and I felt like the group that I was supposed to be with are the ones who have not been cut. But now I am here I'm here in between where you go to the playing field and um the ones who were cut are not the kind of girls you would want to be with and then the ones who are not cut are now like kind of being sidelineed. So even in the playing field you find yourself just out of place >> you see and so h what happened after that is that I just buried myself in my books I mean I loved to read novels because it would they would transport me to a world where what was happening here wasn't happening you know like you bury yourself there in your books you make sure you're the best in your class you make sure like you're just saying I am above what happened to me though then you didn't know that is what exactly was happening. So it affected the way I I would speak, the way I would say. Even right now it still feels like if I speak about it and someone there are some people who will hear it and they go like what are you doing? What are you talking about? You know it like they make you feel like uh you're doing the wrong thing. But >> yeah.
>> Wow. Thank you. A shout out to David.
Thank you for joining. Um David, yeah.
It's my birthday was last month, 19th of last month. Funny enough. Today is my mom's birthday. So you you're wishing my mom a happy birthday, David. Thank you very much. [snorts] Nema says, "Keep going, Sally." Ryan says, "I am touched by your life experiences, Sally." And Leon also for the courage to share it with us. Obviously, Leon is an advocate against uh FGM and other causes. I was saying to him just before the show started that I'd like to discuss with him and maybe even with Sally as well at some point about other things that are just as important that we can throw some light on and enlighten people about it.
So yes um God willing we would um talk about that and uh Sangura Marian Foola Aula thank you for joining and Marian says keep going dear. Oh thank you so much. Now, Sally, um, look, I'm looking at the time and I'm thinking I'm there's so many questions I want to ask, but I can't even I'm just going to skip to a lot. I'm just going to skip through a lot of them and I just ask you maybe one one more and and forget about the rest, you know. So, one thing that really moved me was hearing how you how you transformed your pain into purpose.
Instead of allowing your life experience to define you, you decided to protect other girls. So, [snorts] can you tell us about the moment you realized your pain could become someone else's protection? Was it when you were talking about your you said you talked to your sisters and you said, "No, nobody has to go through what I went through." But what was that moment that you realized that you can actually help somebody else and spread the awareness and make a difference like you're doing right now?
So, um, the first time I I I I felt that my pain, you know, it didn't just have to be pain, but it had to be something else was, of course, after I went through what I went and I went to high school and I knew, no, this was not something to take pride in. This was not something to be happy about. And so, what happened is, of course, I talked to my my sisters and they listened to me.
And of course at first it feels like it's my family you know they are my my sisters they they can listen to me but the next time when I knew that my voice ought not to be just that we was basically in 2022 when we did that seminar and I met there were other survivors who are not just you know living their lives but they had a story that they had what they had gone through and they were using that in their communities to speak. Now, as I told myself, no, I don't it doesn't have to stay with me. It has to get out there.
And I remember there was a time we went to one of the schools and I asked the girls, why why do you think we would we would want to tell you about female genital mutilation and tell you that it's not a good thing. They said, "Oh, because it's not good. It's not there in the Bible." They gave us reasons. And then there was just one girl who stood up and said, "Probably because you went through it and you know what it feels."
And you know, most of the time whenever this story is told out there and it's told by women who've not been cut and they're really doing a good job and we're all doing a good job is that it feels like it is a story of someone else. It's another person's story. But the moment you I I I knew the moment I speak, the moment I tell someone what I went through, even today when I put on my status and the first um the first uh video that you gave and you know Sally at 11, I've received messages on my you know uh on my inbox and someone saying what you also cut so you're speaking because you are cut and all that. And you see it now changes the way everyone views what female genital mutilation is.
that I am not just speaking from a point of you know stories or anything. I'm speaking from a point of experience. I'm telling someone that what I went through is not something to make you know to want any other girl to go through it. So yeah, it was after that you know meeting and I knew another girl has to hear this, another woman has to also tell her story like she has to get this space like the one I got for them to heal and be able to tell their daughters no you don't have to go through what I went through like it should end with them too.
>> Yes.
>> Perfect. Thank you for that. Wow. Um Leon, let me bring you back into the conversation now. You've just listened to Sally's incredible um moving story and sadly um Harris isn't just an isolated story. It reflects the experiences of millions of women and girls which obviously as you know you you've worked with you've helped a lot of them and you spent years working in with communities to change this reality.
So, I'd love to hear your perspective because one of one thing that often surprises people is seeing men like yourself leading the fight against FGM.
Some people believe it's a woman's issue, you know. So, why do you believe men and boys must also be a part of this solution? And what roles can fathers and brothers, communities, leaders, uh what what role can they all play in protecting girls? All right. Thank you so much. Um, FTM is not a women's issue. It's a human rights issue. It's an issue that uh violates the rights of girls and women who are human beings and should be protected. I take I personally take it as um as a personal responsibility because I have grown up in um in a community that's a Masai community who practice it and I have seen the devastating effect that it has. Growing up as a young boy, we grew up together with my sisters, cousins, uh classmates, especially in class. I used to really compete with different girls on once we compete uh I will top of my class sometimes I'll be the second or the third and there's this girl who used to compete with me very very very tough and then just uh by the time we were getting into the fourth level that is class four she suddenly vanished out of class and I no longer had my worthy competitor I got to really dig deep to find out why and I found out that she had just under FDM and got married off after and a bright girl's future was cut off and I I started to be in you know to wanting to know what happened where why why where why where why where why where will she have to really vanish I I knew her as the same as me there was nothing different and that is how I found out how much patriarchy is leading into gender inequalities in many ways that's why I've come out as a young man to speak about it uh because I believe that it's affecting all of us in one way or another because nobody wants um this effect, the health effects. I've seen girls who've ended up being disabled.
I've seen girls who've died. I've seen guys who've over bled. Others are in shock. Others have anxiety. I've seen fistula. I've seen women not being able to hold uh uh uh urine. I've seen women die during maternal health. I've lost a cousin out of maternal uh uh mortality that comes as a result of FDM. And I've seen all this and nobody likes that.
Nobody likes that. It cannot be a women's issue only. It's everyone's issue. And unless young men like me come out to talk about uh patriarchy and and and talk about it and put it to the faces because many of these men are the ones who are in power and they are the ones who dictate what's going to happen.
They might not be the ones who catch but they help in perpetuating the practice of APM and putting it into custody. I've been engaged in very risky conversations about girls who are just about to be married off and it had to take a man to come and argue with other men to stop that deal from proceeding because otherwise women are not usually invited into negotiations on daring. It's always men. So there's got to be a man who believes in women's affairs to talk about these issues and that is how fathers can come in to create a rule of no FTM in their houses.
My father did that and my father was the one of the first men in my community to actually believe in uh not having their girls to undergo FTM. And he also made sure they studied all the way to universities. And he did one very very interesting thing is he also gave them his property inheritance. By the time he died last year, he had given them inheritance just like any other boy. And so um I've taken this up and I think many men can take up that to see women as women and not commodities of sale.
They should not be treated as products that you can sell and make a living through bride price and stuff like that.
And fathers can come out to create rules and they can come out to believe in their daughters and their future.
Brothers can speak out. Um we have to be uh other people's advocates. And you know one quote says that it's not usually that how loud our enemies are.
It's about how silent our friends are when we are going through problem. So we are friends, we are colleagues, we are classmates, we are friends, we are people who've grown up together. Why should I be silent when you're going through something that's going to destroy your life? And that's why I'm in this conversation. And we've seen like uh men like the president of Kenya, the previous president of Kenya stood out to speak up against FGM and he said he wanted to end it and he empowered young people like me. He awarded me and the current president has also come out very strongly uh to speak about FGM. These are men and it just shows how men are utilizing their power and their spaces to talk about these issues and they still win elections. They still get voted. They're still successful in life.
It doesn't hurt you to advocate for the rights of women. It's not a women's issue. It's not a a feminine issue. It doesn't make you less of a masculine man to speak about this issue because that is what many men are afraid of. I have personally still been able to be very successful in life. I've gotten many awards. I've I've made a living. I have traveled. Still, I'm speaking about women's issues. So, I I usually come out to talk to men that it doesn't hold you back. It doesn't you don't have to do big machinery work or agriculture or AI or tech to be a man. You can be a man by speaking out for women.
>> Totally. Honestly, loud applause for that. Thank you very much. Because you you've worked with governments and traditional leaders and young people and international organizations like you said. In your experience though, what has been the most successful strategy for persuading communities to abandon FGM without making them feel like their culture is being attacked?
>> I'll put it in one word that will be respect. It's all about the approach that you give to them. Many of them are practicing uh this practice out of cultural beliefs and religious beliefs.
So many of them uh have just have just inherited cultural myths and misconceptions. H you know Sally talked about the lies that she was given to have to accept to undergo FGM. They're even worse that people tell you that if you don't undergo FGM you will give birth to children who are disabled. you will probably uh end up having I've seen a very interesting one in my community where people say if you don't want to go FGM you will end up um uh you know your clitoris will grow to become your third leg and young girls are scared and they say like I don't want that and so they they forcefully want to undergo FTM and others are told if you if you don't under go FTM you will not be marriageable and if you are married if you cook for those people they will die that will be poisonous and some men even say if um you know it's not raining in our community and we have a lot of drought because women have not been h been cut such that their blood hits the ground >> and and you know and sort of there's a there's a good uh you know blessing to ancestors and stuff like that so many of them have inherited that kind of stupid um you know I must say that it's bar and actually it it's not only happening to older uh men or maybe men who are not educated I heard this especially about the rain from a university student and and it it it made me wonder just what is going on what just how much myth and misconceptions are pumped into these people's mind. So the approach will usually be respect. Listen to them. Let them talk about these issues and then demystify myth and misconceptions. Put them in black and white. There's no religious background to this religion.
Neither that does Christianity mention it. Even Muslims don't don't be don't mention about it. It's only about mention about Sunna which is actually not a mandatory for everyone. It's also not backed by science. It's not backed by politics. It's not backed by anything. So many of these things are just mis misconceptions where people try to drag it into religion, drag it into culture, just give it a foundation. But there's no foundation. What you need to do is to actually demystify this myth and mis misconception. But you start by being respectful. And once you argue yourself out myself, I've argued with many people, elders, religious leaders, political leaders, um you know people from all fronts, you come with respect first, then you listen. They do demystify myth and misconceptions cuz some of them believe an example that you if we are able to cut the clitoris we are able to control women's sexual behavior but then if you go deeper >> um uh the clitoris is only a part of the entire sexual system. Sex sex is actually begins in the mind and there are many nerve in the nerve endings in the clitoris and they are more inside more than they outside. So you ask someone, so what are you doing really by just grabbing it over or cutting or maybe having this girl um uh you know um uh you know uh you know cut her little off? Are you ending any form of immorality or stuff like that?
Immorality is more of a values issue.
It's more about your values. It's more about uh how how you contact yourself and you know forcefully cutting a girl is not going to control the um um uh sexuality. And being able to demystify this is working because then uh when you're able to give this um give this demystification and also back it up with examples and even talk to men about the burden the cost of having to um you know have your wife for example go for treatment for fistula or reconstructive surgery. No one wants that. And so therefore they ended up they end up really saying um I had just been lied to that my my my wife should undergo FDM and now I don't want it because it will only affect them also affect me and that is working and that is how that is the approach we've used but we're coming with facts we are coming with data we're coming with information and that's working and that is really a best practice that I've realized actually work >> perfect wow thank you so much okay let me come back to you Salai one thing I appreciate about what you said um was what Nan you said you reminded us that lasting change does not happen overnight. You talked about respect just there but you also talked about the fact that it requires education as well and patience and just working with people engaging with them I get I guess like in partnership you know and you know and people are willing to challenge harmful practices while still respecting the dignity of communities like you are rightly doing. So Sally, let me ask you this then. One thing I found very powerful was when you said that it ends with you. It wasn't going to you're not going to allow that to happen again. And that really gave me goosebumps to be honest. How did your experience influence your decision to make sure that none of your younger sisters went through a GM? I asked you that question before but another how I'm going to counter ask is that I know you would have had a lot of challenges that you encountered you know um even in this work you know so apart from the fact that you know obviously family you know you are you were advocating for your sisters and people around you and you you as a teacher and everything else but what other challenges did you have you encountered um in this your advocacing work and I'm not just talking about you know in terms of societal challenges, I'm talking about financial challenges as well.
>> Thank you so much. [clears throat] Maybe add before I answer your question, let me just say uh I've got to know especially recently after having engagements with people who in social media and you get teachers who are supporting FGM. Others are telling you you are the educated lot. If you weren't educated, you wouldn't be saying no to FGM. And these are people who are in classrooms teaching our students. These are people who hold positions who teach, you know, uh and you wonder exactly like Lana said, what is really happening? And I've come to realize that, you know, education gives knowledge, but it does not automatically change beliefs that have been reinforced since childhood.
Like every other time you find that there is someone who holds a university degree and this person still believes that FGM should be done because it's been tied to their identity. It is something that has been part of their culture. It's part of their family.
People fear community rejecting them. So instead of being rejected, it's just better to be compliant. even if you have all the facts about how uh FGM can have negative effects. And so most of the time I've just come to realize that real change happens when communities are able to respectfully, you know, question some of the things that happen even in their own culture. So what Leana said is something that cuts across whenever we have meetings with elders and we reason with them. We give them that uh time to just tell us exactly what it is that you know they believe why they think even in fact in my community they believe that there is a traditional wedding that is very important for you know for you even for your own children to be done for a wedding you must have been done for that wedding yourself. So if you're not a church person then you do the traditional wedding and if you have not been cut as a woman you cannot be done for to that traditional wedding. So even up to this time you'll find that there is a woman who has over five children, a woman who is over 40 years old who will still decide to get cut because her own children cannot do any form of wedding if they are not cut. And so you sit with these men and you talk with them respectfully and you create these safe spaces. You make them question like why is it really important to cut this woman if you have to do this wedding? I mean like what does the body have in relationship with this wedding that is being done? And so the more you talk with them and you have them question in a respectful way then there is that demystification that comes and they realize like ah no so these girls these women you can just have them do this but that is still one major challenge of course that we still face. Let me say before I get to the financial part, the very very major challenge that we face is that of traditional wedding in my community. In the Marquet community, a woman if you have to be done for a wedding, the traditional one, you must get cut. So even if you come from a different community and by bad luck you get married to a man who has not known Christ and you know they don't subscribe to the church way they will still just cut you at the age of 40 and they'll tell you of course this we're doing this for you to get this wedding so that you can also open up you know the way for your children to be able to do these weddings and so women don't have an option most times just have to yield now they of course there something comes up like it's consent but it is not consent.
Consent is not consent. It's not a choice when you are forced to do it.
It's not consent when you are you know you don't have an option like you must do it for you to be accepted. I mean if it's tied to acceptance if it's tied to you know you being part of a certain identity no it's not consent. So that is one of the major challenges that we still face up to this time. And another challenge of course is that of like being in this work being a survivor and speaking there is a backlash that comes with it. I told you that you're told that you'll be cast you know this and this will happen to you. I have around two women in my community who fought uh FGM and I think one of them died of cancer and another one died of something else and they tell you see we have examples. This is very true. this and so and so fought our culture and now she's dead and so if you're planning on dying just keep speaking especially you who has been catch so sometime it's a safeguarding issue you see >> that's >> you have to really you know also have to go through of course the major one is that part of of financial where you go talk to girls you even tell a girl that they should not say yes to FJ GM they if they have the if given the choice they can even run away then they'll tell you yes we'll run away we will come to you but can you pay our fees can you pay my school fees because after the time where the girls have been cut after a month and they have been released at school on January starts this girl is told by the father I'm not taking you to school go where you you were you did not listen to me so now you have girls who don't have school fees, you cannot afford to pay for their for their fees so that they can be in school. So it becomes a very big challenge because going out there to just speak to them and giving them the knowledge then giving them the information they are now empowered. They have the information but what else can you do? Can you take this girl to school? Or they'll drop out of school and then they laugh at you and they laugh at them again. Say see she did not listen to her parents now she's at home.
So that's like one of the major challenges that we go through. And also of course the community sometimes can be so violent. My own community sometimes can be really violent. In the year 2023 we lost a police officer who was killed for protecting for protecting girls and even rescuing some of them. We've had cases where a priest was beaten for you know taking taking girls. We we sometimes there is that level of violence especially because we we we've been we we we now have peace in my community but uh back then we we we we had a conflict with our community our neighboring community and they were arms in the hands of you know civilians and so they would use those arms in the way they know and if you came against them and the men are the custodians of the culture and you know fanatics sometimes go beyond what should should be happening. You find that someone says it's a matter of life and death. It's our community. It's our it's our culture. And someone someone even would tell me in in in in social media that if you fight the culture, the culture will fight back and you will not like it. And of course, they'll give you an example of what happened to such a the police officer and other people who are beaten up. Other people even have their premises burnt down because they believe you you you are obstructing their culture.
>> Yes.
>> The 21st century for goodness sake. I can't believe that this is still you know people can be so uh I don't I don't I you know we have to be polite and respectful but come on you know it doesn't make sense. But you've worked with schools and families and traditional leaders and young girls from from everything you've seen. What do you believe is the single biggest obstacle preventing the complete elimination of FGM right now in Kenya? And I think I'll probably ask you the same thing also.
>> What I believe is still it's the fact that we still hold on to our culture so much. We really hold on to these cultures and like in my community those little things and they are not just little they are big. We have other times when uh if you have to cut your sons you to have to initiate your sons we don't go the hospital way here the community again it is a community affair men are cut as a age as an agent. So if your daughter if if your wife has not been cut she will not cook for her children the boys who have been cut and something that is very shameful. So you end up just finding that women will because they have to help cook for their sons. Women will get cut because they want to be accepted. Women will still get cut. And you know we have policies by the way we have policies. The Kenyan constitution has abolished FGM and it's even criminalized. But that is not enough. It is not enough because the people still hold on to their culture.
The people still hold on to their ways and we as it has been said it's not there in the Quran. It's not there in the Bible. It's not there anywhere. But the fact that they still hold on to the culture is what has made it you know difficult to go away despite even the education. But there is hope.
>> Okay. Briefly, I'm looking at time.
Briefly, what what your thoughts about the same question? If you could answer the same question, Lean.
>> Oh, yes. I think um in addition to what Sally has rightly put. I think the other thing is two things. Number one is um peer pressure. I think one of the hardest things uh that I've found in trying to help girls was our approach is empowering girls with education and knowledge about their rights and then they can be able to speak out. But there's nothing that is as hard as convincing a girl who has been convinced by her peers that uh she will miss out if she doesn't undergo FTM and she will not be married off and all these misconceptions have been pumped into her head. It's very hard to convince her and they because they become arrogant and they don't listen and that becomes really hard and they don't get to see the impact until when they when they have already undergone it and so that that's usually one really big problem because the influence from fears when it comes to now uh accepting because she will be the one pushing her parents to undergo FGM. So that really makes the whole thing hard because we are defending her but then she's the one who's supposed forcibly wanting to undergo FCM and their parents usually not have any value so they they easily fall into it. The other thing is about patriarchy. I think patriarchy is still uh driving a lot of men to demand for uh girls to undergo FDM for them to be married. So that's usually one other thing that's really making it very hard because in unfortunately in our community marriage is like heaven and earth you know it's a big thing it's the biggest call everyone is looking forward to getting married and and and if you don't you know the kind of torture you undergo will be too much and so any reason that might make you not to be marriageable uh you know many many women will be very keen to to to at least close boxes. So you have married off you know and so that pressure to be marriageable really worsens the whole situation that is driven by that's why we engage men to to reduce the demand such that there is not a lot of pressure that's going on to girls to forcefully have them go >> okay okay thank you okay so finally I want to um speak directly not to me or I'd like you actually um whether Sally or you any of them because um any of you because you this is going to be the final question.
I don't want to go on and on because there's a lot I would have talked about but Sally um to every little girl watching this program or perhaps somebody who might watch it years from now because this is going to be here forever. Um maybe she's frightened or maybe she's been told that she must go through this FGM. maybe she feels she has no choice. What message would you like to leave with her tonight? Sally, >> thank you. Um for every girl out there who is watching me today or who will watch me even in future, I want to tell you as much as the pressure will be there, as much as you're being told there is always power in your voice, there is always power in the decision that you make to just say no. just say no for a little while. Even if you have to begin with whoever it is, if it's your parents, just let them give you a little bit of time. Because one thing I've come to realize is that the moment a girl just goes beyond uh primary school and she gets to high school, then she is exposed. This girl gets education and she can make informed choice. So there is power in saying no. that there are also sisters out there who've gone before you who can help you who can hold your hands that is why we have organizations such as lighter girl initiative like to I like when I had the word to meaning help in challenging to help is to to you know that word so there are people out there who can help you you don't have to say I didn't have a choice you don't have to say I didn't have someone to talk to we are there to be talked to uh there are so many people there who are trusted who can you can talk to and can hold your hand through and you can successfully lead your life thriving without surviving >> h perfect okay so I'll kind of like ask it in a roundabout way for you um aon if you could speak directly to every parent grandparent or traditional leader or community leader watching this program tonight what would you say to encourage them to protect girls while preserving the positive aspect of their culture.
Aan, >> yes, thank you. I think I will say to everyone um uh in this multis sectoral uh disciplinary you know effect is that um many problems that we are facing uh in the world for everyone is usually uh because that you know many of um people went through childhood trauma and their childhood was destroyed and this is this lives with them for the rest of their lives having to uh you know suffer and struggle because of the many issues that they underwent you know through as children. I I'm I'm calling out everybody to safeguard children.
Children belong to the community.
Children belong to all of us and I think children must be allowed to live and enjoy their childhood at least before they face all these other issues that come with adulthood. they should at least enjoy their you know at least enjoy their childhood and we might not be asking for much but at least leave them alone to enjoy their life. I don't think we uh we should have them undergo all these issues to please ourselves or make us feel like we need to fit him. I had sad say that her grandmother wanted not to feel out of the culture. No, we are doing our own expectations and projecting them to young children. We can achieve our dreams without losing young children. We can feel fit into community without utilizing and and for possibly having our children uh you know go through tough trauma. I also want to ask everybody that one of the best lives that you can live is living for others.
Living for others in the process you get to find yourself. You get to actually solve some of your inadequacies.
Sometimes you have anxiety and money is not solving. A good vacation is not solving. A big guy is not solving. But actually going down into this community and walking through some of the children who will have actually not had a better future and giving them hope, giving them an opportunity to go to school sometimes can be the most fulfilling things that you get to get and you get to appreciate the little things in life. I was in the UK last month and I stayed there for a month and I was comparing uh children who who are in you know in nursery school or kindergarten and the children here and it's very different and sometimes we are spoiled. Sometimes we think all these things are for granted but when you go down deep down you know into community you get to appreciate the little things. You get to appreciate that actually uh being able to go to school, being able to learn is the best thing that you can get and so should every child. Living for others allows you to solve your anxiety, your depression, your issues, your challenges. Actually, you get to see them solve as you experience life with other people. And so I encourage everybody to take this as social accountability. Speak out. Speak out for those who cannot speak for themselves.
That's the greatest way to use your voice. Thank you so much.
Thank you both. What can I say? I couldn't have put it better myself because as I sit here listening to this conversation, I'm reminded that lasting change begins with ordinary people who chose to do extraordinary things.
Sally, you chose to turn your pain into purpose. Len, you you chose to dedicate your life to protecting girls that you may never have even met.
>> And a lot of them that you even protect even now, you've never met them.
All right, that is the very definition of a servant leader.
So tonight has reminded us that real courage doesn't always make headlines.
Sometimes courage looks like telling your story. Sometimes courage looks like challenging traditions that no longer serve our communities. Sometimes courage simply means deciding that suffering ends with your generation.
the suffering of FGM and anything else that you know is not quite right with this with your community ends with you.
It's not going to pass on to the next generation.
So to everyone watching, if tonight's conversation has educated you or challenged you or touched your heart in any way at all, please don't let it end here. Click the like button, subscribe to Empower Life if you haven't already done so. I've also dropped their email addresses and their contact details in the description on YouTube and Facebook and Tik Tok. So, if you want to reach out to them to find out how you can support um their causes, please the their details are right there in the description. So please contact them in your own way and also share this with your family, your friends, your church, your workplace, your community groups and because awareness grows when conversations are shared and if there's a topic you would like us to discuss in future programs guys please you know you know you can always uh contact me on empower life with cleopatragmail.com.
So, thank you. Thank you so much once again, my my royals. You I think you were so enthralled by tonight's conversation that you didn't even say like you were still you're still in shock, are you? you know, there's quite a few, you know, uh, people, uh, that joined and, um, yeah, I think I think it's just as shocking for you as it was for me, but but I'm hoping that tonight's conversation has, uh, learned some awareness, not just to to to us, but whoever is watching from those communities that are in leadership positions can think again about those who are advocating for FGM to see that this is doesn't help anybody. All right. So, thank you so much once again, my royals, for watching. And Sa um Sally Leashon, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your unwavering commitment to protecting women and girls across Africa and beyond. So, um I hope um you know, you will come back on this show again at some point for another cause really that you're fighting as well, which I'll be very happy to help you champion. So, Mario, thank you once again everybody for watching. Until next time, be bold, be kind, but most importantly, be empowered. All right. Thank you so much, Sally. I hope your son gets better really, really soon, you know, because like I said earlier at the beginning of the show, Sally's son has is actually on admission right now. He's not feeling very well, but by the grace of God, in Jesus name, he's healed, you know, but she still had to make the effort to come to have this show. So, I'm really grateful. Thank you so much as well.
Everybody, good night. See you next week by the grace of God. Take care. Bye everyone. I love you all. Bye [music] >> the best [music and singing] version of you. Unlock your true potential. Empower [music] your mind, body, and soul. Live with intentions. Live with [singing] a purpose.
Empower your dreams. [music and singing] Make it happen today.
No matter your age, rise and shine.
[singing] [music] Live boldly. Live authentically.
It's [music] your time to rise and [singing] shine.
Empower life with [music] your act.
Awaken the best version of you.
[music] Ooh. Ooh. Ooh. Ooh.
Ooh.
>> [music] >> Your journey starts today. You've got one life to live. Love yourself. Be kind to others. Break free and let your spirit soar. [music] Empower [singing] life with Cleopatra will help you awaken [music] the best version [singing] of you. Empower Cleopatra.
[music] Oh, [music] power.
Ooh.
[music]
Related Videos
2:26
Sociology
Children found neglected, malnourished in Nashville homeless camp
Fox17Nashville
1K views•2025-03-19
37:29
Sociology
Race Still Matters | Santiba Campbell
ElonTLT
104 views•2019-03-01
31:06
Sociology
Opening session | Disability—Social Protection—Inclusion: Dialogue for Change
socialprotectionorg
155 views•2022-04-15
24:29
Sociology
Domestic Violence in Utah
UtahStories
113 views•2023-08-18
4:12
Sociology
What is disability at work?
fnegemedias8982
104 views•2025-10-23
0:44
Sociology
Povertys Impact On Childhood Choices
ItsMoreThanJustPovertyPodcast
902 views•2026-04-25
1:40
Sociology
Islamofobia meningkat di Australia sejak 7 Oktober 2023
astroawani
258 views•2025-09-12
1:00:00
Sociology
Millennials, Parents and Grandparents: Family Transmission of Religion (and Non-Religion)
oregonstatehealth
520 views•2015-05-27
Trending
13:25
Business
Playstation NO DISC/NO BUY Fight Is Over...
DavidJaffeGames
4K views•2026-07-23
22:40
Business
Steam and Xbox Just Dropped The Hammer On PlayStation
OhNoItsAlexx
9K views•2026-07-23
16:52
Anthropology
Americans Confused in Australia for 17 Minutes Straight
IWrocker
17K views•2026-07-23
20:36
Business
SuperBike Factory Has Gone... What's Next for the Motorcycle Industry?
thatbikersimon
11K views•2026-07-22