This discourse prioritizes rigid theological dogma over the nuanced complexities of individual autonomy and social reality. It exemplifies the inherent friction between traditional moral absolutism and the pluralistic values of a modern secular society.
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Ab*rtion is EVIL- Change My Mind - Open DebatesAjouté :
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the weekly Wednesday stream. Today we are debating the prompt abortion is evil um where we do these live debates. This is a continuence of our change my mind series. Um so anybody that wants to join up is perfectly able to. I will get ready to put the invite link into the description here after we answer a few chat requests. Um let me just add that in there.
We do not have Catholic Sam today.
um which is sad, but he is working on something that you guys are going to be very excited about. Uh something we've been hinting towards a lot, and that is Gloria. So, um Calexam is actually away.
He's working on Gloria right now. So, pray for him. Um as always, pray for me as well and know that we are praying for you. Um but yeah, no. So, we're going to do probably three or four debates on the topic of abortion, and then after that, we will answer some super chats. I don't know why I keep saying we. It's just me today. I'm so used to having Sam here that um I I guess I'm speaking in in terms that that means he's still here.
But, we have Harold. He just joined up.
So, we will uh we'll bring him up right away just for some quick entertainment.
And then anybody that wants to join to debate abortion, uh you can join up.
It's open debates. So, anybody come up.
Harold, how's it going?
>> I'm good, man. I'm good, man. I'm glad I've reached the status of quick entertainment. I still got the background from the Samo debate.
>> That's pretty good. Is that because you want to keep it or because you don't know how to take it off?
>> I don't know how to take it off.
>> Okay, there we go. Here. Wait, I I might be able to add one, too. I think I only have my uh my Hawaiian one. Yeah, that's what it is.
>> I've I've had some issues lately.
>> Okay.
>> I've had some some big issues.
>> Okay.
>> I'm gonna just read you some recent comments on my videos. Okay.
>> Noah Jr. Withered Noah Phantom Noah Blood thinking Noah Blood isn't Noah.
You're Noah. Are you related to Noah?
Um, well, here's the thing. I think eventually you're going to pass me in in followers and I will be accused of being try trying to be you, of being little Herald or Wii Herald. I mean, when you join seminary, I'm gonna have to, you know, step up, fill the fill the boots.
>> We'll see if I join seminary. I think there's I I would say there's a better chance that Sam joins seminary than there is a chance that I join seminary.
Um, obviously, that's that's a personal choice that Sam will have to make. But, uh, to be completely honest, behind the scenes, I think there's there's there's a chance that that happens for Sam. For me, uh, I don't think it's what God wants, but >> we'll see.
>> What was I gonna say? Um I just I did kind of a serious question I suppose.
>> Okay.
>> So I I was baptized a few weeks back which is been happening for a while basically. How how do you deal with scrupulosity? Cuz like I ran through every single hypothetical in my head to make you think my own baptism wasn't valid. And it was like the stupidest thing ever and I was like oh this this this and I realized it was all very foolish.
>> Yes. Okay. Okay. So, there's a quote that I actually uh really like to to >> play back in my mind when I'm struggling with uh scrupulosity because that's something I I definitely struggle with.
Um and it's from St. Terresa of Avala.
You might have heard it. It's it's a somewhat popular one. It was told to me by a priest in confession because I started off my confession. I said, "Bless me, Father, for I've sinned. It's been five minutes since my last confession." Um and and he said he he told me this quote that St. Teresa she went and she had this beautiful vision of Christ and she asked him Lord what is the worst sin that I'm committing and she thought it was going to be you know hating people or lustful thoughts. He's like no the worst sin that you're committing is not trusting in my grace.
So the Catholic Church has has universally taught that if something is not your fault, then you are not going to be culpable of graves of of mortal sin. Apologies. Um even even something uh such as baptism, if your baptism is invalid, you can still qualify for baptism of desire. you would technically be in this weird intermediate state of um like catechuman almost >> if you weren't baptized, but you can still qualify for that baptism of desire. Trust in the grace of God over whatever >> anything that makes you anxious is typically not from God. There are very limited circumstances, but if you feel scared and anxious um in a way that's that's leading you away from confidence in Christ, >> then it's probably not from God. Can can I run like a quick hypothetical by you then?
>> Okay.
>> So, hypothetically, let's say in the 1% chance my baptism wasn't valid.
>> If I then go on to be confirmed, receive the Eucharist, and become a priest, it's a sin to, you know, pretend to be a priest.
>> Mhm.
>> I would have been committing that sin surely.
>> Yes. So you would you would be um you would be guilty of the grave sin of uh a bunch of things under that circumstance but you would not be guilty of the mortal sin because remember in order for something to be a mortal sin you have to give full knowledge and consent. So you would not be fully knowing and fully consenting to um you know receiving the eukarist um you know posing as a a Catholic or posing as a priest. you wouldn't be guilty of that or you wouldn't be guilty of that mortally.
Now, it's still a grave sin and you would be committing it, but not in a mortal sense.
>> Okay. Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that. Sam Sahor wants to come up with me.
>> All right. Uh well, we'll see. I want to hear Sam Sahor's thoughts on the debate.
Let's see. Maybe we can do like >> Give me like two seconds. I just took something out of the oven. All right.
>> This guy.
>> Oh, boy. Uh guys, we are debating abortion today. U just for the chat. Uh people who are confused is going on. We are debating abortion.
>> Coming up and talking.
>> All right. All right. What's up? What's up?
>> What's up, Sam? How are you?
>> Yo. Hey, Harold. So, I I like literally just run in the stream. Where is Sam?
>> Sam is something for Gloria.
>> Oh, he's working on Oh, for Gloria. Okay.
He's working out. He's working. Okay. I think I know he's working with All right. That's kind of tough. All right.
What was your question?
>> Uh, Noah.
>> Uh, we're just wondering if you want to maybe tell us your thoughts about that debate now that it's kind of settled a little bit.
>> The me uh me and Harold.
>> Yeah, you me and Harold. That's what I'm talking about.
>> I'm going to say I got absolutely cooked. I got flamed. I got fried. I was not prepared. It seems like Harold's >> Neither was I. I don't have foresight, unfortunately. But >> yeah, it seemed like Harold knew what we were going to debate about before it even happened.
>> It did seem like that. That was weird.
>> I think it was Dean who revealed to me in a dream or something. But >> kind of like kind of like Joseph Smith.
>> Yes.
>> We got a comment from Rody Madhatter saying, "Let me on. I'll change your mind and make you look ridiculous." Rody Madhatter, >> we got to let him up.
>> Let Rody up.
>> That sounds familiar.
>> Chat is wide open. Uh, what was I going to say real quick though? Um, but no, I I rewatched that live stream, right? Cuz when I'm bored, I do. And I saw Noah and Sam discussing how they want to see me actually debate Catholicism.
>> Yeah. No, >> I actually want to do at some point.
>> I'll be willing to do a debate.
>> That's >> Yeah, maybe we can we will host a a live stream if you find someone who you think is on your level that you want to debate. Um, we will we will host that if you want it to be in front of that many people. Obviously, like that's that's a big thing. Like we're talking 10 to 20,000 views. Uh most likely.
>> Well, baptism by fire, I suppose.
>> Wait, what if it was like what like six, seven?
>> All right, Samor is gone because of that. Um Rody Mad Hatter.
>> Is he joined? Is he joined?
>> I don't know. I I you leave a comment like this. Let me on. I'll change. If you're going to make me look ridiculous, then you have to join because it's in the description. It is open to anyone who wants to join. So, >> I'm going live with a couple of guys my age, like this kind of recent times. And we had an atheist join and um call us all stupid like effing idiots. And then we were like, "Yeah, but what's what's your belief?" And he was like, "I don't know." So, it's just pure hate for religion. No actual thingy. But um >> I have a feeling that that's what's going to be the case with Rody Mad Hatter here. Um >> I was going to say thank you for having me up again. You know, this is >> Oh, yeah. Hey, you're a you're a friend of the channel that you're not a guest anymore. They're just you're you're honestly a regular on the streams. And we're super here.
>> I'm going to I'm going to let you go and destroy some abortters. I don't know what you call them. Proabortion people.
>> Yeah. Heretics.
>> Pro choices. Process.
>> Evil people.
>> Abortion is bad and grave sin. Bye, guys.
>> Bye, Harold. Thanks for joining, man.
>> All right. Uh remember, if you guys want to join up, you have to have your camera on. It looks like Rody Madhatter is just not going to join. Um, which is super dis disappointing because you know there there's there's all of this uh all this confidence and then as soon as there's an opportunity to actually have a civil discussion about our beliefs, it seems like a lot of these people um often disappear and that that is how the internet goes which is unfortunate. But we have some more people here in the uh in the chat. Just make sure that you have your Sam guys, sorry if I seem exasperated.
Sam Zahor just joined back into the uh the chat. I guess we'll bring him up.
What? Why not? Sam Zahor, what's going on?
>> Yo, I'm not Sam Sahore, bro. I'm >> just Did you draw on your face just now?
>> Dude, what?
>> I'm not I'm not Samore, bro. I'm just I'm some random guy.
I just wanted to say I love you, bro.
Um, I'm not Sam Zahor. Um, also I love Harolds. Also, when are you and Sam doing the kiss stream, bro? Or are you not doing it? Like, if you're not going to do it, bro, just say you're not going to do it.
>> Uh, okay. Let's see. As soon as Sam and I have an oper. I have never met Sam in person.
>> Uh, yeah. Yeah.
>> So, so as soon as that happens, we will do it. But >> So, it's confirmed there will be a kiss stream. I mean, as soon as we're as soon as we're together and and you know what, Gloria is going to bring us together.
>> Us like us like you know the >> uh No, I don't I think you're a minor Samoro. I I don't I don't think we can do that. Like PGC stuff like I don't think >> we can't hang out like as just friends, bro. Like it's not it's not going to be that weird, bro.
>> I think it'd be pretty weird. You're you're you're a little kid.
>> It's like it's like hanging out with my uncles except like I'm gonna I I I don't know what to do with these guys anymore. Um, let me let me Somebody's spamming in the chat. Just Just letting you guys know, if you spam in the chat, you will be uh you will be banned.
Banned. Absolutely banned. Okay. If you want to debate abortion, you have to come up.
Yeah. banned.
Um, anybody want We That's the problem with this channel is that we have too many Catholics and so when we try to do debates on Catholic theology, everybody just agrees with me already. And that's the that that is what really upsets me about this.
And yeah, like like like do do you agree with abortion if somebody is raped? No.
No circumstances allow for abortion. You can't Okay. There there I this is something that we learned in kindergarten. Okay. If if one wrong plus another wrong does not make a right. So is somebody raped? Yes. That's horrible.
It's a horrible horrible thing. How on earth would abortion make that thing better? Killing a baby is not going to make the the tragedy of um the rword go away. I forgot I can't say that on stream. We might lose the channel, boys.
Um we got a $2 super chat from Cash Wizard. A hot dog. Thank you so much um for for your generosity. All right.
Um if you want to debate, we have a lot of people in the chat now. Wave your hands if you want to actually debate abortion.
You have to actually want to debate abortion.
All right, Brian, how's it going, man?
>> Hi. Um so I'm doing good. How are you >> doing? Well, >> okay. So I have a question. So, I'm Catholic, but I'm kind of confused on the teaching of abortion in the sense of like >> how is like abortion like like the title is abortion is evil? like is it abort is it evil in every case even in like my main thing is like the life of the mother cuz I know that that's like only a few cases and stuff but if there was a case where like the mother needs the abortion or else because like something's gone very wrong would that be evil to save her life?
>> So that wouldn't necessarily be the the type of abortion that we're we're talking about right now. So I if if a mother is um in in serious danger, justifiable danger because of hor because of her pregnancy um that there are certain cases kind of like do you know what just war theory is?
>> Yeah. Like if someone bombs you, you can bomb them back or something.
>> Well, not necessarily, but but you can you can defend yourself against um attackers. And so in a similar way, if a woman is uh in in serious and immediate danger because of her pregnancy, um there are there are situations in where um that could be justifiable. But but uh the the overarching uh argument here is more so towards um the intentional termination of a pregnancy. So not that situation wouldn't even in my mind qualify as abortion because uh that the doctors would still be doing everything they can to protect the baby's life. Um, and it's not the intentional termination, but rather the prioritization of the mother's life over the unborn child.
>> Okay, that makes sense. Thank you.
>> All right. Of course.
Is that all? Oh, okay. I guess it was.
What would you say is the strongest case for abortion? And then how can you show that that argument fails? Um, one of the best ones I've heard is the um the the argument about the violinist. how if there is a, you know, you have this world-class violinist, everybody loves this person. Um, and and one day you just wake up and this this violinist is uh connected to you through all these tubes and you're completely responsible for keeping them alive. Should it be considered morally evil for you to um take away the life support even though they're feeding off of you in a certain way? Now, there's a few problems with that. Um, it is not naturally ordered for the violinist to be attached to you. That is not the natural order. Um, and you can take a lot of that from Thomas Aquinus. The natural order um is completely different from a synthetic situation that we might see with the violinist where uh this person is being um you know attached to you.
Um, second of all, the uh, you know, when you're having a case of abortion, that is a completely um, defenseless and innocent uh, child, so to speak. Whereas a violinist um, is is not an innocent being. It is not uh, and of course, we're talking about personal sin when we say this. It is not an innocent being.
Um, and it is uh, not in the natural order for that being to be uh, attached to you, the violinist. So, that that's the best one I've heard. But even then, it's still not the strongest. I love your videos and the analogies you use, and Sam have helped me a lot better understand Catholicism. Well, praise the Lord. Um, that that means a lot. Okay, if you want to debate abortion, wave your hand if you're in the chat.
Okay, we do not have anyone. I I see someone named Yes, Samore.
Um, you're waving your hand. Did you just did you lie or do you actually want to debate abortion?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay, take it away.
>> I just want more understanding. I don't like I know abortion is not is like moral evil, but I just want more understanding why it is.
>> So that every human life has value.
Correct.
Yeah. So, a a a human, whether it's you, whether it's me, whether it's an elderly person, whether it's a newborn baby or an unborn baby, every human life has value. And to take intentionally the life of another human being is a grave sin, a grave evil. If you're, you know, not adhering to the concept of sin, it is a a grave evil and a moral wrongdoing to purposefully take the life of another human being. And so even if that human being is small, even if it's inside of a mother, even if it is not as intelligent as we are, to take the life of another human being is inherently wrong.
>> Okay. One last thing I just want to say thank you. Um I'm Ethiopian Orthodox, but you have helped me grow my faith a lot. So that's it for now.
>> Yeah. Praise the Lord, man. Let me know uh if there's anything I can do to help you. Um and God bless.
>> Bye.
>> Bye, man.
All right. If you want to debate abortion, wave your hand.
All right, Jack. How's it going, man?
>> What's up?
>> All right.
>> What's going on?
>> Uh, I just want to say I'm a big fan of yours. And something I've dealt with a lot kind of in my household is like my sister is always kind of pressures me about my beliefs on abortion and things like that. Sorry, my hair is completely cooked. So, I see it kind of like I see it as moral evil, but I've done like re a lot of research into it and there are there are like some Christians, well, like I don't know if you'd really call them that, but like they kind of have arguments for it and they'll point to like passages in Exodus about how like the ancient Jews would consider it a they wouldn't really consider it murder to harm a pregnant woman. like they like they considered it a misdemeanor for the child to also die from >> that. There are multiple passages, let me see if I can find the exact verse.
There are multiple passages within the the Old Testament where it's actually if you take uh severely harm a fetus while it's in the womb of the mother, you can be punished by death. Um >> Okay.
>> All right.
>> Because I know like you know who James Trico is, the guy running for like Senate in Texas.
Oh, he's like a big He's Christian. He He says some things that are a little like, oh dear. So, I'm assuming he's it's kind of like liberal theology, but he's like like he'll he he has some point some talking points on abortion, which like I think are interesting that I don't like necessarily agree with, but I'll see.
Yeah. Um No, no. I I think I I think even if you just take the Old Testament in isolation, right?
>> Okay.
>> That that's that's not the best way to approach these passages because there's also the entirety of the the New Testament. Are you you you're Catholic?
>> Uh I'm like I'm kind of looking right now. I was like Baptist like it was a mainline Baptist church, but it was definitely like evangelical type. And I I was kind of raised more Lutheran, but my mom's side is Catholic. So, I'm kind of like I've done a lot of research into theology, though.
>> It's much easier when you're a Catholic, right? Because the Catholic Church has dogmatically defined that this is a a moral evil.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And I I knew all of that. I just >> Yeah. Yeah. So, when when you're talking about things like that, if if you're wanting to defend the faith the best way possible, um that that that is obviously one. Genesis uh 96 is a good one to look at. Um, whoever sheds the blood of human life, right, is p it's punishable by uh that same punishment. It's kind of this eye for >> now obviously that develops throughout history. So, we don't necessarily see an eye for an eye even later parts in the Old Testament through the New Testament and then especially now in the the modern day uh ecclesial theology, we don't believe in capital punishment at all. Um, okay. But but we see in the beginning there's obviously this condemnation. If we're giving equal punishment for an act, if you take the life of a human being, then there is the equal punishment of taking that life, meaning that you are, you know, committing this grave sin. Um, and then as as we move forward throughout history, we see um less uh corporal punishment, but we don't see uh any takeaway from the moral implications of what's being done. So all of the laws in the Old Testament that are punishable by death, they still stand. Those are still wrong things.
>> Yeah.
>> Except now it's more of a spiritual punishment that we can face in addition to, you know, material punishments from God.
>> Yeah. Because it's I mean also like obviously the penalty back then was like stoning to death and stuff.
>> Yes. And we don't do that now.
>> Okay. There's that. Okay. Interesting.
All right. Thank you. Of >> course, man. God bless you. All right.
See you.
All right. If you want to debate abortion, give me a wave.
We have too many We have too many Catholics.
We have too many Catholics.
This is a serious problem. I mean, well, I actually Okay, pause. That's an awesome thing.
This is a This is an amazing thing.
Um, wait. Oh, some people in the chat can't hear me.
Let me let me put it in the in the actual chat. Uh, so so if you're watching the stream, just watching, we have uh an actual like chat, public chat, and then there's a private chat on the Streamyard. Um, I just put it in what if I have questions, but not to debate. Uh, that works. Let's let's let's do it anyways. What's going on?
Well, um I really love your videos and I was just wondering like there's like all these conspiracy theories about like Satan running the world nowadays. I know, but would you think that it's a plausible idea that the reason why abortion is so pushed nowadays is because um there was a baby that came and that was Jesus and that has done so much damage to what Satan is trying to do and that's why Satan is so against babies or is that just like not a plausible thing?
>> No, that's that's a that's a very real thing and I I I think there is some real credence to that. But I'd say even even more so uh if you want to connect biblical theology and demonology to um modern day practices of of Satan, you can look at, you know, how people worshiped ball back in the Old Testament, right?
>> In order to worship this this uh fallen angel, this demon, you would sacrifice a child, >> right? You would say, "I'm giving up this baby's life so that I can have material possessions," which is the exact opposite of what we receive in the Eucharist at mass. Right? That is Christ saying, "I'm giving up my body so that others can benefit." When when now in the Old Testament through, you know, this child sacrifice, you are giving up someone else's body so that you can benefit. And that's the same exact thing that we see in abortion. Some some people have called it the sacrament of Satan that these people are, you know, in a way giving up this anti-ukarist of this this infant child. One of the most innocent things that we can possibly imagine being uh murdered for the personal gain of another person. And that that I think is is a very clear connection. But I've also heard that theory about Satan almost being like this jealous entity who wants to uh you know like get back at Christ who came as a baby. the the the king of the world who came as an infant child. Now he has this vendetta against infant children.
You know, even a similar thing with Moses, right? He tried Satan actively influencing Pharaoh trying to kill these infant children >> and also like with Herod too.
>> Yes. Yes. Herod as well. Um so there's a lot of connections I think you can make there. That's a very good point.
>> Okay. Thank you.
>> Yeah, of course.
God bless.
That was a a fun conversation. Okay, we need a debate though, guys. We need a debate.
Nobody wants to debate.
We'll answer some super chats while you guys start start disagreeing with me more. Again, I think it's cool that you guys are Catholic, but not not for this one objective that we're trying to complete. What is the best argument against orthodoxy?
Wow. Uh I think it's it's most likely I really like Aquinus's writings uh or sorry St. Thomas I really like his writings on the Felioquay. Um, Christian B. Wagner has a lot of very good videos on this, but I think when you talk about the Felio Quay 2 and Eastern Orthodox, you can bring up some really good theological differences. Um, I I think one theologically, metaphysically speaking, um, against the rejection of the filioquay when we're talking about hypothic processions, there's a few problems that evolve. Um, first of all, each of the persons of the Trinity has to be distinguished by their hypothatic relations. Relative opposition is something you could say. Now, that is a tomistic uh opinion. You could say a to toistic truth. Um but but I I think it can be demonstrated even if we're not doing relative opposition though we still have to distinguish between each of the different uh persons of the trinity. So if we have for example the father is uh distinguished from the son as the son is begotten by the father and the spirit is distinguished from the uh father because of the way that he is spirating out of the father right passively of course passive spiration he is uh proceeds from the father. Now if there is no relation between the son uh who begets from the father and there is no relation between the spirit who proceeds from the father then you actually do not have a real hypothatic way to distinguish between the persons of the trinity. Now many will object to this including polyamos he will say well no obviously the son is begotten of the father and then the spirit proceeds from the father and then you ask them you say well what's the difference between proceeding and being begotten and they tell you that they don't know the difference they say we know there is a difference but we don't know what the difference is another uh very real thing is the inter relationship between the trinity we believe that each of the three persons of the trinity is related to each other um so the father is related to the son is related to the spirit uh and is related to the father.
There's this golden chain you could say.
We know that the father is related to the son um because of beetting. And then we know that the uh spirit is related to the father because it proceeds from it and vice versa. Right? The son is related to the father because he uh is begotten of the father and the son is or the spirit is related to the father as it proceeds from the father. Now if you don't have the felioquay then there is no hypothatic relation between the sun and the spirit which collapses trinitarian theology um which is a huge problem. There's no relation between those two but if you add the filioquay you then have the spirit proceeding from the sun which brings back that interdependency between the persons of the trinity. There's a lot you can go into um regarding the filioquay essence versus energies but that's a quick little little overview of that. Hi, I'm a big fan of you. My question is, would you advocate for a federal ban on abortion? Yes. And how would you support mothers that can't afford baby? Well, I think first of all, uh, and obviously I'm not I'm no politician, but I think the first step would be taking all the money from Planned Parenthood, all of the this millions and millions of dollars that were given to Planned Parenthood, give that to women who are um, you know, giving birth to these children that we are now um, forcing to give birth to these children. And you know that that has a very negative connotation with it by the state. But in another way you could phrase that is we're forcing them not to take the life of their children.
So that that's what I would do. That would be the first step. But I also think we need more care outside of that.
Um because something I'll stand by for the rest of my life is if you just deny abortion, you are not pro-life. In order to be truly pro-life, in my opinion, you have to deny abortion and support the care for the people who are carrying um these these pregnancies to term. So that's that's what I would say there. Um uh $5 donation, no chat, but thank you so much. Uh Chance Malo Show, M Lilo Show, maybe. Um what Old Testament book should I read after the Pentatuk? Uh I really like wisdom. Um I really like Sir First and Second Mcabes. Um I love the Psalms. Those those are my favorites personally. So I'd recommend those. All right, people in the chat. First of all, we're getting rid of everyone who does not have a camera on. I guess I've said that a couple times. If you want to join and debate abortion, you click on the link in the description. But if you don't have a camera, you're getting removed. Now, people in the chat, if you want to debate abortion, wave. You need to wave.
All right, Paul, how's it going, man?
>> Good. Um so you were mentioning earlier that um you believe that there should be a federal ban for abortion.
>> Yes.
>> Um >> with with some exceptions.
>> Okay. So I've seen like the church teaching on same-sex marriage and things like that about um how that should be like how that shouldn't be a federal ban and things like that. Why should that not be a federal ban when abortion should? So, a couple things when when we're talking about um LGBTQ practices um or homosexual relations, that is the free choice of one to harm themselves. And you cannot have that without them doing that to themselves. And by committing a homosexual act, one is not infringing upon the freedom or the life of another person. Now they may be doing so spiritually but the for the main goal of the government at least in the secular sense is to protect its citizens from uh material and mental emotional distress and harm. Now homosexuality may not do that in a way that necessarily uh deres a federal ban. However, abortion is actively taking the life of an unborn child which first of all obviously that's bad. It's taking away the material freedom, the material life of that child. Um, and it's also putting the child in real spiritual harm. Um, I don't I don't know what denomination or religion, if you even are one, you uh align yourself with. Um, but we can kind of get into more of that if you want to.
>> Yeah, I'm I'm Catholic. Well, I'm kind of human. I'm not I just wasn't I had that kind of problem with that. So, >> yeah, of course. Does that help or is it still Okay, awesome. Perfect.
>> Thank you. Anything else?
>> Um, no.
>> All right. Well, have a good one, man.
God bless you.
>> You, too.
>> All right. Well, that I mean, that was um efficient at least. Um, guys, nobody wants to debate and it makes me so sad.
We'll have Chance up. He's been asking a lot. Um, >> hey Jesus and whatnot. Dude, this is awesome. I love your I love your content. K. Um, I just had a question because I have my own YouTube channel.
>> Okay. Um, I have I don't even I have like almost 50,000 subscribers now. And I did I did a debate with my grandma on abortion. So, it was pretty fun fun.
>> And um, man, it's so hard to get her to become pro-life. Like did a 40-minute debate. It was like really cool. But I I just I just was going to ask for advice on how I can maybe convert my grandma to be pro pro-life.
Well, that I mean if you are presenting all of the arguments, you know, then I would say are you Catholic?
>> I'm Orthodox, but I I have deep respect for Catholicism, though.
>> Yeah. Okay. Awesome. So, so I would say in situations like that, sometimes there can be deeper uh seated problems than we realize on the the surface. So, I I always live by this motto, right? Uh no matter how good your arguments are, you can't change someone who doesn't want to be changed. So there may be something below the level um you know obviously we're not going to jump to like demonic possession or anything but there can be you know forms of evil that can prevent someone from understanding a truth. So no matter how good your arguments are you may just never get there. Now that is very pessimistic. I'm not saying that's the case. Just a little disclaimer. I would just continue to push and continue to ask hypotheticals.
I think for someone who when they they're in a position where you feel like you've made all the points and they're still just denying it. the more hypotheticals you ask, realistic hypotheticals, um the more you can get them to really imagine the problem and the harm that is being caused by uh the action that they're supporting. So that would be what I would say, but sometimes you you just can't do it. Um prayer is the strongest form of conversion to uh goodness.
>> Yeah. And at the end of the day, it isn't us. It's the Holy Spirit that ultimately converts. Yeah. But yeah, that was my only question, dude. Thanks so much. Maybe maybe one day when I get bigger, we can do something on like a club or something. We'll see.
>> Hey, dude. 50,000. I mean, you're almost there. I only have like a hundred thousand, so you're >> Yeah, >> you're getting there. Uh, God bless you, man. Thank you for coming up.
>> All right.
Let me know in the in the private chat if you guys want to actually debate.
That would be cool. But for now, we'll answer some more super chats. Do you think it's okay to go to SSPX masses to familiarize with the liturgy if there are no other trident masses like the FSSP nearby?
So, they're not excommunicated, but the organization itself is getting close to it. Now, I would I would not recommend going to SSPX parishes if if you don't have to. Um, now there there's a few things to keep in mind, though. If the SSPX does get excommunicated, um the people who attend SSPX churches um will actually not be excommunicated.
it's only for the the clergy that would face the excommunication.
Um, furthermore, a person who attends the SSPX still receives valid sacraments because even in excommunication, there can be the valid transmission of sacramental grace.
Um, so so those those priests within the f FSPX uh can can certainly still perform uh sacramental rights. That does not mean that you should seek it out.
So, so technically we actually believe that the Orthodox right who are in active schism with us um can perform the uh you know sacramental rights of the Eucharist um even even confession some might say um but they they have a valid Eucharist. Now if somebody has a valid Eucharist uh that means we can go and receive it but it is not advised at all.
You should not seek out an Orthodox church um to receive the Eucharist. Um and you honestly you shouldn't do it.
So, I think the SSPX is bordering on that, but they're not there yet because they're not actually facing excommunication. It's just a possibility. So, that's what I would say. Thank you for the donation. Just discovered your channel. Who are you?
Um, I'm just I'm just a guy just a guy.
Um, just a guy that likes talking about uh the Catholic Church. I mean, that that's a very deep question. I would say ma primarily I'm a servant of Jesus Christ, but there's there's a lot of lot of lot of other things that could fall under that. Father Mark, I wonder if that's a Catholic Father Mark or if it's a um schismatic father. Uh okay. Um people, if if you're going to join the chat, if you want to come up and debate abortion, you have to have your camera on. Uh people who are watching, uh the link is in the description if you want to come up. Um, but we're also hoping to only have people up who have their cameras on and who want to debate. So, if if you want to debate, give me a wave.
Abortion is gay. Like Sam Zor.
>> Hey. No.
Hey, pause. Pause.
>> Yeah.
>> I've seen you making jokes about homosexuality and that is not okay.
Okay.
>> What if it's about Sam, though?
>> No, it's okay.
>> It's wrong.
>> Okay. All right. I won't do it anywhere.
I'll >> cut it out. Cut it out.
>> Go talk to a priest about it.
>> About making gay jokes.
>> Yeah, man.
>> Um, so how was your day, bro?
>> It's good. Uh, just looking for people to debate abortion. Not a lot of people.
Everybody Everybody is too Catholic in here to debate. It's getting upset.
>> Yeah, it's cuz we're all tough.
>> Straight up. Yep.
>> Yeah. Um, can you bleach your hair?
>> Uh, I was going to and then uh I was told that I wasn't allowed to.
>> Yeah, we should get We should tell Sam to get frosted tips on his beard.
>> That would be awesome. Yeah, Sam's still working on Gloria. He uh >> Dude, he said he couldn't go bald, bro.
that like that broke my heart when he told me he couldn't go bald, bro.
>> I mean, the church speaks. So, there >> we got to come up with something else for him to do, though. Like frosted tips on his beard.
>> Yeah. All right, we're going to have some I think we actually have a uh non-atholic interlocator coming up. So, Samore, I love you, man. Uh go wash your face.
>> That's gay. That's gay.
>> That's not gay.
>> I'm just I was just >> What? All right. If you're in the chat, wave if you want to debate abortion.
If you're in the chat, wave if you want to debate abortion.
Are we kidding? Guys, guys, guys, guys, guys. Well, I can't even answer super chats right now either. My screen isn't working.
I don't know what to do.
Oh, who is Sam? Sam Zahor is he is one of the people who started one of the first um like meme accounts regarding Sam Catholic Sam and I. Um and he ended up coming up on stream one time and then we just we just kept doing stuff from there. All right. If you want to debate abortion, then come up and wave. If you don't want to debate abortion, do not come up and do not wave because we're we're trying we're trying.
Okay, guys. People who come up if you're Catholic, people who come up if if you're c like we're trying to do like this is people watch these and they learn things from them. So, if you join up, you're taking up the the queue and and the thing like it's preventing possibly someone from hearing something that might change their mind.
So, you have to have your camera on and you have to be willing to debate.
Samore, I am banning you from the studio. The guy gosh darn it. Okay, if you want to debate, wave or else I'm All right, Colin. What's going on, man?
>> My bad.
>> Oh my gosh.
What do I do? Do I just leave? Do we just end the stream? Do I crash out like Nick Fuentes every time something goes wrong?
Do I just crash?
Do I just Do I just lose my mind?
Do I just Do we just end the stream right here? Oh, wait. Axen, do you want to >> So, I don't want to I don't want to debate about abortion, but I want to have a question about So, I have a Catholic friend. He tells me that if I don't confess my sins to a priest, then I'm going to hell. I'm non-denominational. I want to hear your thoughts on like about that like how that because I know I read the Bible all the time. I understand how that like where it the Bible points to that.
>> Yeah. Let me pull up uh my Bible website here. I'll I'll screen share it for you.
We'll we'll we'll keep this somewhat quick for people. I know that there's some some abortion people in here. Uh first thing I'll turn you to is John 20:23. So the way your friend phrased it was irresponsible to say the least. to say that you're you are going to hell if you don't confess your sins to priests is a a overgeneralization.
Um because there are there are situations in which Catholics never technically need to confess their sins to a priest. So someone who gets baptized and then you know uh 6 months later gets hit by a train, they don't they never needed to confess their uh sins to a priest. Now, through the normative means of salvation, probabilistically, you will um especially if you know the Catholic Church teaches that you have to confess your sins to receive um absolution from mortal sins to a priest. Um then you would be a formal heretic for denying something like that. So, the first one I want to bring up with you is uh John 20:23. But before I show this to you, um I want to ask you a question.
>> Why was Jesus sent into the world?
to well he was saying to the world so he can die for us and you know and sacrifice himself for our sins that was his >> that's why he died for us I mean that's why he was sent to the world that's what >> yeah he was sent he was sent by the father to take away the sins of the world or he was sent by the father to forgive the sins of the world you would agree with that sir >> okay I'm going to show you a passage where Jesus says something to the apostles It's very very important. He says, "Peace be with you. As the father has sent me, now I am sending you." So in the same way, for the same reason that the father sent Jesus, Jesus is now sending the apostles, the first priests.
So Jesus was sent by the father to forgive the sins of the world. And now Jesus is sending the apostles in the same way. And when he said this, he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them. If you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld. So, not only do the first priests, the apostles, have the ability to forgive sins, they also have the ability to withhold forgiveness of these sins.
>> What do you make of this passage?
I'm not too sure to be totally honest with you.
>> Yeah. But >> but I also have why can't I just confess my sins to Jesus directly by praying to him.
>> Okay. So that's a really good question.
A super common one. I used to be non-denominational. Then I was Presbyterian. That's a question I asked.
You can when you go to confession that is you confessing directly to Christ. We believe in something called impersona Christi where the priest takes on the role of Christ and it's actually you confessing your sins to God directly.
Okay.
>> Now the the miscommunication the misunderstanding that we have is that you believe the correct way to confess your sins to God directly are through silent prayer. I believe the way to confess my sins to God directly is through a confessional booth. Now, the Bible never once, there is no situation in which it is ever commanded, ever even recommended for someone to confess their sins in silent prayer.
It's never said. There's never a single instance. In fact, every time confessing sins is brought up in the Bible, it's either not mentioned how you confess your sins or it is talking about confessing your sins to priests. I'll show you another example. Um this is James 5, we'll do 11 through1 17.
So this is a very very important passage. So is anyone among you suffering? If so, let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. Is anyone amongst you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church. Okay, this word for elders is preseros in the original Greek. And that word is where we get the English word priests from. So let him call upon the prespits of the church. And let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of the faith will save the one who is sick. And the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.
Notice how the forgiveness of the sins is a direct result of the elders of the church, the presbbitteros, coming to this man. And then it says, "Therefore," so because of what we have just said in this passage, "Therefore, confess your sins to one another in regards to the elders of the church, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed. For the prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working."
So, every single passage that brings up confessing sins, uh, you know, itemizing sins, it's always in relation to other people, specifically priests or apostles.
>> Yes, sir. That's that's really good.
>> Yeah. I have actually a whole video about this on my channel. We I bring up a whole bunch of other passages. We go into the Greek. So, if you if you want to learn more about confession, definitely go read that. Um but long story short, become Catholic. That's >> okay. Okay. Also, oh one more question.
Sorry.
>> Okay.
>> Um I was wondering so also about being Catholic. I was wondering so whenever um I know I love you know Mary all of them but why wouldn't like my friend explain explained to me as like praying with them rather playing praying like like to them like as a god. And I wouldn't it's like he said because they have a higher like they have a higher status in heaven which is I don't know and so why can't like once again why can't I just ask Jesus for the same exact thing and have the same exact result than just praying to Mary or praying to all the other people that you guys pray to.
>> Yeah. So a couple things. First of all we do pray to Mary. Anyone who says that we just pray with that's wrong. The catechism explicitly says that we pray to Mary. We pray to all the saints. Um but the the misunderstanding is what that word pray means. Pray in its etmological root just means to ask or petition. So technically when you come up and you ask me something, you ask me a question, you are um from the original meaning of the word pray, you are praying to me in in a very strange way.
So um when we pray to the saints, it's not like we're worshiping them or we're singing uh praise necessarily. We we do that sometimes. Um, but it's it there's no worship there. We're just asking them to do something. And the thing that we're asking is for them to pray to God for us. So, you could phrase it as we are praying with them, but we're also praying to them. Now, you asked a very, very good question. Why would we pray to the saints when we can just pray directly to Jesus? A couple things. Um, you can pray directly to Jesus. I do it all the time. I have a crucifix right above this computer right now. I pray to Jesus. Um, that that that's a very important thing that we do. Um, however, praying to the saints is very similar to asking your friend to pray for you, right? You don't have to do it, but the prayers of the faithful are good in a very mystical way. So, if let's say I'm nervous about a test, I say, "Hey, Axton, can you pray for me?" Why wouldn't I just go to Jesus instead?
Well, I probably did. I did pray directly to Jesus, but I also wanted other people to pray for me. So, in the same way, when I ask Mary to pray for me, it's just, hey, Mary, can you pray for me because this is something I'm worried about. And then you asked finally about this hierarchy that we have. I want to read something to you in the exact same passage we just read about you know uh forgiving sins through the elders of the church.
>> It says the prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
>> The most righteous people are the ones who are fully sanctified by Christ and sitting in heaven right now. Now it's not to say that our prayer does not have power. It totally does. But according to that verse, the most powerful prayer is from the most righteous people. And I cannot think of anyone who is more righteous than those who God has perfected through his grace and now sit with him in heaven. So hopefully that that helps a little bit.
>> Oh yeah, definitely that helps a lot.
>> All right, I appreciate it.
>> Yeah, God bless, dude.
>> God bless.
Okay, that was a a quick uh confession expl explanation as well as some uh good good uh intercession of the saints. If you want to debate abortion, wave your hand in the chat.
Confused? Do I believe you? You've been in here for a minute. You haven't been waving before. We'll bring you up. We'll see if you lied. What's going on, man?
>> Bro, can you hear me? Because I can't hear you.
>> I can hear you. I can hear you. Oh, you can't hear me.
>> I can see your lips moving, but I can't hear you. And I' I haven't been able to hear you since I first joined and the guy left. And after that, all the voice cut out.
>> Okay, let me >> Yeah, I don't know what it is.
>> Okay.
All right. I just told him to leave and join back. Sorry guys about like the weird like cryptic messaging um as soon as as soon as he joins back. Um we will we will talk to him but we'll answer some more. Oh my goodness. Some of my favorite people of all time. David and Hannah. How's it going? Pray for me and Hannah. We're getting married this Tuesday after being married civic or civily for uh civically civily. I think it's civily for nine years but this time it will be in the church. God bless you.
Oh my goodness. Okay. Me and Sam have been so excited for David and Hannah.
This is uh this is very very cool. Yes, I will pray for you guys. Of course. Um I'll mark the date Tuesday. I'll I'll I'll say I'll say a I this is awesome.
Um congratulations. Uh super cool to see that you guys are um being united in the church. That is awesome and that brings me so much joy. God bless you guys.
Studio Fool was going to ask if God can curse one. When I was an atheist, I co coerced a girl to get an abortion years ago. I feel I'm still paying for it. If you have repented and you are Catholic, if you have gone to confession and repented of that mortal sin or that grave sin, then do not worry about that sin. It is forgiven. Worry about your sins while you are not repenting. And then as soon as you repent, toss it aside. Okay? Now, you can still grieve those sins, but do not feel as if there's any guilt whatsoever.
Do not feel do not feel as if there's any guilt imputed to you. Um trust in the grace of Christ over over all things. Talk to a priest about that though is what I would say. Okay. Uh we had somebody named confused but he's not in here anymore. Uh if you're in the chat, wave if you want to debate abortion.
Wave if you want to debate abortion, guys.
Everybody is Catholic. How tragic.
I'm starting to ban people. I'm starting to ban people. People keep coming up here with fake names and fake profile pictures.
You're going to get banned. You're getting banned. I don't know if you'll be able to join in the future. Uh JJ man, do you want to debate abortion?
Wave if if you do.
Okay. JJ man does not want to debate abortion. What do we do?
What do we do? Oh, confused. How's it going? Can you hear me?
>> Yeah, I can hear you. Can you hear me?
>> Awesome. Awesome. What's going on, man?
>> Hey, man. Nothing much.
Um, so I'm a Christian.
>> Okay.
>> And I have a question about abortion and it might become a debate. So, >> Okay.
>> My question is this.
I understand the logic of like you can't draw a line between an unborn person and a born person. So if life has value at all, it has to begin at conception. I get that and I agree with that.
>> Okay.
>> But I just can't I can't square that circle because it brings up for me a question of God's cruelty. Um cuz it would seem to me that you know the Christians are insisting that we have to value life. But I see and again this is a suffering problem.
This isn't directly tied to abortion.
>> I see so much unnecessary suffering of, you know, little children for instance.
I don't know how you can then say that that same God is valuing those lives.
You know what I mean?
>> Yeah. So, a few things. Um, there there's a a misconception or presupposition. Uh, obviously I don't think it's a conscious one. you seem like you're you're well educated and this isn't something you're doing consciously, but it's very important to avoid viewing God as just a superhum or a super being because that's not God is not just a super being. He is being itself and so the grounds for all reality does not follow the same rules that we do in by any means. Um for example, it would be wrong for humanity to come up with a method in which we could produce children without uh male and on female intercourse. That would be wrong for us to do. However, God is able to do that because he is the creator of all life and is the law himself. So when when he did that with Jesus, it was completely fine. In a similar way, God can um take lives as he pleases. That's Romans nine. Um, and he can also give life as he please. Now, when it comes to cruelty, there's a presupposition that the suffering endured by these people, by these children, you could say, is um not redemptive and does not bring about an ultimate good. So, just because there is an evil does not mean that it is not for a greater and ultimate good that is above that evil. And we know that God tolerates and we know that it would be necessary for God to tolerate evil because redemptive goodness above evil is greater than just goodness without any redemption. And that's something that uh Aquinus argues in Sumakra Dentil's deion book two.
All right. I see.
So um the argument would then be um and like I said I'm a Christian, right? So I'm not I'm not trying to debate. I'm like steel manning.
>> The argument would then be um you actually have to justify that because obviously if he's going to create if there's going to be an autonomous creation there there has to be the possibility of suffering, right? Whether it's natural disaster, tragedy or evil.
>> But there there it's very easy for us from our perspective to imagine a a reality in which that autonomy is preserved. But just certain things are left off the table. Like the laws of physics are just because he's not beholden to the laws of physics, right?
>> Yep.
>> Certain things are just off the table.
And you know there won't be an earthquake in Haiti for instance.
>> Yeah.
>> Um so that to me would be like we actually have to justify we have to explain why God didn't do it that way.
And my argument, because I was talking to someone about this, was that we actually aren't in a position to assume that there's any sort of coherent creation that can exclude those things.
>> Mhm.
>> But then the argument, the counterargument that I've been wrestling with is, well, God is not beholden to to coherence itself. He's actually outside of that. He's outside the laws of logic.
So that shouldn't be an issue for him.
>> I would not say that God is outside of logic. First of all, it would say that God is logic himself. So if God were to um you know contradict any logical statement, then it would actually be it would it would shatter the uh classical understanding of God. God is logic. He is the logos. Right? So I I would preface with that. The job of the interlocutor in a theistic argument on the morality of suffering >> is not only to question whether there is justification but rather to show that there is no possibility of justification for any outcome. So for example earthquake in Haiti right for our minds it seems very easy to say why would there be an earthquake in Haiti? Why why would that happen? Now, obviously, I could I could come up with a a solution to that. Well, let's say that God is redeeming people in Haiti um spiritually, bring them to everlasting life. Um he's he's preventing greater evils. Maybe there's, you know, a baby Hitler in Haiti or something like that.
Um maybe all of these things, all these whatifs, the job of the interlocutor, the atheist, not saying you are that, but the atheist that is coming against the moral uh soundness of the Christian God is to show that there is no logical reality in which there is justification for that action. And so an earthquake in Haiti, I can think of millions of justifications that actually require that earthquake in Haiti. M >> and so the job of the atheist here would to be to show that none of those are logical realities. And that's just not really something that you can do. In order to show that God is evil, you have to show that there is no possible justification for an evil action. And I don't think that that's something that can be done with the Christian God.
>> I see. Okay. That's that's a really creative that's a really creative argument because you are preempting.
You're not preempting, but you're dismissing the premise that God can just do anything even if it's incoherent. So they can't just outright claim, well, he could have just done this because it's not >> okay.
>> Yeah, >> I like that explanation.
>> Yeah. And then there are some situations where, let's say God created a humanity where none of them are ever redeemed by salvation. Every single one of them just suffers and goes to hell.
>> That would be something where you could point to that and say, "Okay, that's an evil action because there's a purposeful causing of suffering with no redemptive >> goodness."
>> However, that's not what's happening.
And there is almost in every single circ I would say yes. In every circumstance of suffering, you can point to an ultimate good that comes from it. And if if we are to assume that there is this ultimate good being, then it would make total sense for there to be suffering so that he can redeem from said suffering.
>> Okay. And yeah, that I like that. I I think that works logically. And that also actually I mean that kind of lends credibility to specifically the Christian God, right? Cuz >> he entered the suffering in that exact same way. So you could actually use that.
>> Okay. Yeah, man. That's a great that's a great answer. I like that. Quick question. This isn't going to be a long one.
>> Um, >> I was raised non-denom and then I started watching a lot of, you know, your videos and some apologetics and I started looking into apostolic churches.
Like I'm like, this is >> it just makes sense that this is where I need to go.
>> Um, >> and I I haven't landed Catholic yet.
I've only gone to one Orthodox liturgy.
What what would be your advice for learning? Because I've done so much research, man, and I can't I know what the differences are, >> but I can't figure out where I'm supposed to go. Like, I can't solve the issues.
>> I would >> What's your general advice?
>> I would give you >> do do you how how do you feel about Intercession of the Saints?
I was uncomfortable with it and I'm like I sat down with with an AI because no one else I don't have like anybody that's interested in this stuff and I just debated it and I asked it to take the Catholic and Orthodox position and and it convinced me that >> Well, there you go.
>> Yeah. So, >> praise God for AI. That's awesome.
>> Okay.
>> I would recommend you if you are fully convinced of intercession or even just close to it, ask for the intercession of St. TZ of Lassou. Have you ever heard of her?
No. St. TZ of Lassou.
>> Yes. T H E ou. Um.
>> Okay.
>> St. Terz of Lassou is my favorite saint other than other than Mary obviously. Uh she she she has she has done some very very cool things in my life. I would ask St. Terz of Lassou to show you a sign.
Her thing is that she brings people roses.
>> So, okay, >> let's say there's something that you're really struggling with in in your life.
um like should I break up with this girl? Should I not break up with this girl? You can ask St. Terresa Lassou for a sign of flowers and you can say show me white flowers for yes and show me red flowers for no or vice versa. It doesn't matter. And every time I've done that, flowers have shown up in my life, roses have shown up in my life with that exact like within days or hours, minutes sometimes. Um and so >> I would ask St. Terz for guidance.
Obviously, don't put too much emphasis on this, but sometimes it takes us to make a huge decision like this. We do need a little bit of divine intervention. That's what happened with me. I needed divine intervention to become Catholic. So, I would ask for that. Be like, "Hey, I'm not going to stick my whole position on this, but God, show me a sign through St. Terz.
St. Terz, play pray for me." And I I I trust the Lord.
>> Okay. You know what, man? I'll try it. I mean, I actually wasn't aware that you can pray to saints for signs. I thought you was just you just chose a saint that you like >> for for whatever reason and then the same stuff that you're going to pray about to God anyways, you just ask the saint to to pray with you.
>> Yeah.
>> But I didn't know that they had like unique I guess you call it a calling card or something.
>> Yeah. Kind of in a way like that. Yeah.
>> Uh yeah, St. Terz of Lassu. She's awesome. I have a rosary blessed by her.
Um which is really cool. Um okay.
>> I would I would I would recommend that.
If if you want an overarching general thing, do that. But obviously just do do as much research as you can. I think you're on the right path. I trust God with with your soul entirely.
>> So do I.
>> There you go.
>> Thank you so much for talking to me.
Yep. God bless you.
>> God bless you.
>> Well, wasn't that a fun conversation?
Okay, we have some new people in the chat. If you want to debate abortion, can you give me a wave?
We Okay, we have somebody. Their name is debate abortion DA.
And the only person in this chat that wants to debate abortion is not at their chair right now. So, we'll answer some super chats while we wait for them to get back.
Abortion is murder, yet it prevents the suffering of a severely disabled child living lives from suffering and statistical misery. Yes, because everybody knows that when somebody is sad or somebody is suffering, we should just kill them. No, that's not how morality works. Just uh like like with with this argument, the reason this is so crazy with this argument, you could go up to a four-year-old child who has autism, who has, you know, severe disabilities. Why can't you kill them?
Because it's wrong. Because it's a human life. Um this completely misses the argument as to why abortion is wrong.
Can I be let in? I have Catholic questions as an inquiring Orthodox.
Um I don't Are you in the chat right now?
I don't see you in the chat. So I I I don't know.
Um Catholic case files, what's going on?
>> Hey, uh can you hear me by the way?
>> Yes, I can hear you.
>> Okay. I I have a an unre unrelated abort question not related to abortion for you if that's all right.
>> Okay, let's hear it.
>> So, um I have been trying to have conversation with people um in my old space because I um not in a na way. I used to be transgender and dransitioned and became Catholic a couple years ago.
>> And I've been trying to have conversations with people about that about why uh specifically why transgenderism is wrong. Um, and I don't have any good arguments for why it's wrong other than the church says that it's wrong. Because for me, I had a like a very divine revelation thing that made me Catholic and I can't I can't exactly show that to people.
So, I don't I I don't have great ways to talk about this. So, >> okay. So, first of all, that's amazing.
That's very very cool. Praise the Lord.
Um that I I'm a little bit takenback by how cool that that story was. Uh that's amazing. Congratulations. As far as transgenderism goes, um you you do ask a very good question about uh the natural order. Somebody who you would very much like reading is St. Thomas Aquinas. Um >> I have read all of Aquinas.
>> I can tell I can >> I have his haircut. Yes, I'm I'm pretty close. Um, yeah. No, that that I I could kind of tell if you if you hadn't read Aquinus, I would strongly recommend >> more more of an Augustine fan, but love Aquin.
>> My my uh confirmation saying is St. Augustine.
>> That's pretty cool. Um, okay. Sorry, got off on a tangent about awesome.
So, so for transgenderism, if you're talking to a theist, someone who believes in God, um you could always take the stance of God creating the natural order as you would read in Suma Contra and TLS um and how it would be wrong for us to gravely and directly oppose the natural order. So, there are some things in which are not a part of the natural order that you can change about your body. For example, having crooked teeth, getting braces is not going to affect the natural order, but doing something like uh genital mutilation, that would totally affect the natural order. Or even claiming to be something that you are not, claiming to be a a woman when you are in reality a man, uh that is going to directly affect the natural order and contradict it. So there's obviously this the sin of scandal and then there's the sin of u you know, self mutilation. I don't know what category that would necessarily fall under. Um harm many things. You can also make the argument um is well sorry.
Sorry. First of all, does that does that make sense?
>> Yes. Yeah, it does.
>> Okay, awesome. Um and you can also make the argument of leading others into scandal. Um so by presenting yourself one way that you are not actually.
um especially when a lot of transgenderism ideologies involve purposefully showing parts of the body that would appear but they would make one appear to be a different gender. So uh for example Nisa powers is a great example of this. Nisa now that uh he has retransitioned back into uh a a a so-called woman. we now see a flood of these pictures of Nisa's self with um you know breasts out into the photo um and and so that can lead into uh lead others into temptation and it could severely impact others um and also just maybe confuse someone about the actual gender of na. So those those are the main ones I go to but I think I think there's probably people who are smarter than I am. Trent Horn has some very good uh arguments against transgenderism, >> right? Yeah. And and that that is really helpful because I mean I one of the responses I've gotten because I have you ever seen um a Catholic gentleman that podcast?
>> No, I haven't.
>> Great podcast by the way. Highly recommend. But um I I met him at a men's conference and I was talking to him about it a little bit. Um and he was like, "Well, you should explain to them why you are not like that anymore." I was like I I was like I spent three years gender transitioning and then I had Mary show up in a dream so I can't exactly that wasn't logic so I can't use that as an ex as an argument >> because I mean she does I I suppose she could do that for everybody if we asked but >> I I have asked and I have received uh with with Mary appearing to people in dreams which is really cool. Um, >> yeah.
>> So, that's awesome. Um, your story is amazing. Um, what what what's your name if you don't mind sharing?
>> Uh, Grant.
>> Grant. Okay. Amazing meeting you, Grant.
Uh, this >> you as well.
>> Is there anything else I can do to help?
I don't know if that's the word that I would use, but is there anything?
>> I I don't think so on on this topic at least that.
>> All right. Well, Grant, thank you so much for coming up and have a great day.
>> Thanks. You too, man.
>> God bless.
Grant, huge fan of Grant. Okay, debate abortion DA, are you back? I wanted to debate you, but then you you left.
You've been been taking up space in my chat for a while. Sam Zahor, can you can you stop joining because you're blocking other people from joining up? I kicked Sam Sahore. Sorry, guys. Hank Atheist.
Hank, how's it going?
>> Hello. Can you hear me?
>> What is up?
>> I can't hear you.
>> You can hear me or can >> I can I can good. Yes.
Uh, one thing you might notice already, I'm kind of young. Uh, I'm in high school, but >> if you don't care, I don't care.
>> Yeah, I graduated high school last year.
So, >> cool. Cool. Okay. Because I I some people I don't get why that like I see like 20-year-olds and doing streams and being like, "Oh, you know, if you're under 18, I won't debate you." And like they're high in my head. Um, first thing I want to ask, are you so are you doing this just for the enjoy the debate or are you genuinely open to like I want someone if they're possible to convince me because I I like to be convinced of things.
>> Um, okay. Let me let me >> Are you trying to convince others or are you trying to be convinced?
>> I would be very interested to see if someone can change my mind. However, I find it extremely likely because in addition to having a very strong stance on abortion logically, I also have the moral binding authority of the magisterial teachings of the Catholic Church that bind me to my specific opinions. Um, but I could see somebody maybe temporarily, logically changing my mind if they come at me with the perfect arguments and then I would most likely refer to church documents and then smarter people than myself and then most likely revert back to the same exact position that I'm at right now. But I'm open.
>> So in other words, in order to con fully convince you, they would also have to convince you why Catholicism or even Christianity is wrong.
>> Yes.
>> Okay. Would you Is that possible?
>> Um is that possible? I would say it would take a tremendous amount of miraculous presentation. Um because in in addition to uh you know logical conclusions about the order of the universe about uh Christian denominations I have also had personal experiences um you know talking face to face with saints um having dreams in Latin a language which I don't speak. Um >> that's interesting. I'm >> Yes.
>> So so I I've experienced >> Yeah. I've experienced things that are um I would say that would make it very hard for logic alone because obviously >> personal experience tends to be a hard thing to convince people outside of a religion once they've >> got stuck on it. And I don't I don't blame you for that at all.
>> Yeah. So I I'm I'm a tomist. I don't know if you're aware of toistic theology.
>> I'm not. um it it the very very limited way to put it is that we believe that that faith is is the primary indicator of salvation and then to know more about faith and theology you use logical reasoning and and for there are some theologians throughout Catholic church history that actually you know went against logical thinking uh especially the eastern myth mythicists uh that we see you know that is now in schism with us um but but we have we have this very strong stance of scholasticism so we believe that logic uh coincides with faith perfectly. So I believe that all of the things I I believe can be defended by logic and I've never seen that contradicted. So regarding abortion, um I would say it's very unlikely that you change my mind, but logically it's possible, but my faith trumps that overall.
>> Okay. So at the very least I could logically demonstrate a flaw.
>> Yeah. Okay, I'll take that. Uh the other thing I want to ask before I actually fully get into debate is uh are you a Republican?
>> No. No. No. Uh I I think I think that's uh absurd and it's very rare for a well educated Catholic to associate with any political party. Um yeah, so so we obviously reject uh modern-day liberalism that we see in the Democratic party uh because we believe that abortion is a a horrible horrible sin.
Um >> maybe I should be more clear. Did you would you or did you vote for Trump?
>> No. No. No.
>> Okay, that's just checking.
>> Yes.
>> I you I immediately noticed like as soon as I entered the stream, I was like, "Okay, this guy seems way too smart to be more Maggot."
>> Yeah. No, I I think uh MAGA definitely falls under the Americanism heresy which was condemned by the Catholic Church. So >> yes, I mean and also like most Catholics, especially after the slander of the pope, I don't I couldn't see how anyone who is a true Catholic still supports that. They clearly do not respect >> Catholicism at all. They don't stand for any of its values other than maybe I guess abortion, anti-tr Catholic value. But >> yeah, Trump doesn't even stand for anti-abortion anymore. He just he never really he just gave it >> he did like one thing and that didn't even help it. So >> yeah. No, not at all. So I'm not MAGA not Republican. I am a Catholic.
>> Okay. All right. So first thing, why why do you think abortion is wrong?
>> I think it's the taking the I think it's taking the life of a innocent human being which is uh inherently wrong according to natural law.
>> Okay.
So do you would you say there is any case where taking the life of an innocent being could be necessary?
>> I think it's very very rare and uh even more rarely morally justified. But yes, >> so even in the case of like the mother will guaranteed die if they go through with the pregnancy, it's still unjustified. No, I think there is justification to prioritize the life of uh the mother over the life of the child in c certain circumstances, but I think to intentionally take the life of >> what circumstances do you classify as where the mother's life takes precedent over the infant?
>> Um immediate and grave danger of the mother's not just uh her her well-being but of her life like her um ability to live in a way that glorifies God. like if it could like you know cause her to be bedritten forever for example >> um I would say that that is probably not morally justified to take the life of another. I think you can incur bodily harm for the sake of another's well-being. Um but I think if it's if it's going to threaten your ability to live then it is uh it is possibly justifiable in that sense depending on the the certain circumstances of that family. So I think if if there are other children for example that the mother has to take care of or if the mother is young and planning on having more children in the future um then it's justifiable but I think if this if this mom's like well one and done I I think that has its own moral implications but um probably less justifiable in that sense.
>> All right so in that case abortion is evil most of the time.
Um, again, I wouldn't necessarily consider those circumstances uh abortion because abortion, right, is the intentional taking of another human life. Um, and I wouldn't say that in >> That's not intentional.
>> What?
>> So, I guess that's why I clarified it's the prioritization of the mother's life over the infant's life, not necessarily the intentional taking of the infant's life.
>> So, the abortion procedure intends to kill the infant. now.
>> Yes.
>> And you're saying because it's prioritizing the mother, it's not intentional killing of, >> you know, so I would say taking a vacuum to a fetus or a baby, an unborn baby is is the term I prefer. Um, an unborn child in the womb, taking a vacuum to that in uh pretty much 99.9 repeated uh% of circumstances is actually not going to immediately help save the mother's life. I think if that is an operation that is absolutely necessary in the moment to save the mother's life, then yes, it's justifiable. But I wouldn't see that as intentionally taking the life, but rather intentionally saving the mother's life. And one of the consequences of that is the death of another human being.
>> Okay, that makes sense. Yeah.
>> But I would say that it the action of that abortion is still evil, >> but it's an evil that is justified.
>> A necessary evil.
>> A necessary evil is something you could say. So I wouldn't say the uh gravity of the situation necessarily 100% falls um in the culpability of the mother but rather the situation is evil. The taking of the human life is still evil but it does not necessarily morally implicate the mom as a culprit of said abortion.
>> Got it. Got it. Okay. So in other words, so still all abortion is evil but in the scenarios where it isn't evil that's not abortion or it is evil but it's necessary. Correct.
>> Yeah. All abortion is evil. All taking of human life is evil no matter how justified it is.
>> Got it. Got it. And you say that because the you have the the axiom of like the value of human life.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay.
Then I the other one I was going to ask obvious that always gets brought up is what about rape victims?
>> What about them?
>> Do you do you think they have the right to an abortion?
>> No. I don't think anybody has the right to kill someone else because of a past trauma.
>> No. Okay.
>> No. So So I I there's a something that we and this is going to sound condescending and I I say it mainly because it's snarky. There's something I learned in kindergarten class. two wrongs don't make a right. Um, so just because there was a a horrible and I'm not trying to simplify that the horrible mental trauma, physical trauma that rape victims undergo.
>> Um, but just because that one thing happened in the past does not at all affect the uh beauty and the dignity of the child that is in the mother's womb.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. So there's 300.
>> So all life all life is valuable regardless of how it occurred.
>> Yeah. There's 346 people watching this right now. If I got them all in a room and said, "Hey, point out the one that was conceived in rape." You would not be able to do it.
>> No.
>> And that's the whole point.
>> That is true.
>> That person still has human dignity.
>> Okay. Uh I'd like to start by saying uh I I personally am a utilitarian.
>> Okay.
>> I'm sure you're familiar with that.
>> Yes. So, um when it comes to abortion, I I do think like in the cases of like for example, uh once like if it's just like you know someone's like constantly getting abortions because they're like don't care about like using protection or not taking like you know like uh pills that and they're just doing it for like you know the pleasure and and then they just don't care if they're killing. Obviously, stuff like that is evil. I think >> I So, I I'd like to think that at a certain point you have to decide when it's necessary and when it's just for pleasure, obviously for convenience, right? And I think how you determine that though is I think where the debate comes in because like I I I get the idea of like it's the woman's choice and I do largely support that because you know obviously I I am very liberal still but at the same time >> real quick real quick sorry not to cut you off. How does the woman have the choice to take the life of another human being?
>> No I that's not what I'm saying.
>> Okay. So, is the fetus in the womb a human being?
>> I That's the thing. I only count it as once it has sentience.
>> That but that's not the definition of a human though.
>> Do you you think life begins at conception? Yeah, I understand that.
>> Well, but that Well, that's not I I believe that's that's scientific fact is that >> officially unless life begins at conception, but again, bacteria is life.
>> So So, okay. again. But but no, the quote you're you're missing the the point that I'm trying to make. I'm not saying that human value begins at conception. I believe that. But the the point is just that this life that is categorized species-wise as a human began at conception. So the question is it okay to take the life of another human being still applies to that 3se secondond old embryo? It doesn't matter.
So, an egg and a sperm, if they're like right next to each other and you and you just let them die, that's fine. But as soon as that sperm touches the egg, >> as soon as that new code of DNA is created, then yes, that is a human being. That's the definition of of of a human being is that it uh is a code of human DNA. Like, so sorry, that of a circular definition. That's when life if life begins at conception and it is the species of human then when that life begins a human being begins at conception.
>> Yeah. I just don't think it matters that it is a human personally because it's still no different than the other cells.
It's just that this will develop to be a human.
>> Okay. So sentience is is where you draw the line right of moral. Okay. So let's say I have a grandma.
>> She goes into a coma.
>> Yeah.
no real possibility of her waking up anytime soon. There's we'll say it it's very very very unlikely.
>> Can I kill my grandma? She's not sentient. She won't feel anything.
>> I I can >> um if it doesn't cause suffering to anyone, then I don't see the problem.
>> So, I can just >> Sorry, one second.
>> Yeah, you're good.
>> I I want to make sure that I heard that right. Um I'll repeat the question just to make sure that we're we're we're on the same page.
Does that that's concerning. Hopefully uh his grandma doesn't see this.
>> Uh let me let me let me let me repeat just just to make sure we're on the same page. You have a grandma >> and she is in a coma.
>> She is unconscious and she's not feeling anything. Is it okay to kill her?
>> My question is will people who know her be side?
>> Let's say it's just you and your grandma. Is it okay to kill her?
And like she doesn't have anyone who knows her, relatives or anything like that.
>> Just you and your grandma. Can you kill her?
>> If you don't mind and no one else will care or know, I don't see a problem with it.
>> That's very concerning, Hank.
>> I know. I know because but genuinely.
Who is that hurting?
>> Uh, it's taking the life of another human being.
>> I don't I don't accept that axiom though.
>> You don't accept that it's a human being?
>> I human. No, I I know it's a human being. I don't value human life more than other life. Life is life regardless.
>> You don't value human life more than other life.
>> No, I don't.
>> If I cut down a tree, is that the same as shooting a a Muslim child in the head in a mosque?
>> No, because uh one has sentience. That one is much worse, but they're both killed.
>> Hold on. You said that you don't value human life. I said I don't value life more than I don't value human life more than say like a chimpanzeee for example.
>> Okay. So it is just as bad to kill a toddler in a mosque as it is to kill a monkey.
>> No chimpanzees are not monkeys but >> oh whatever. An ape is that the right terminology?
>> Yes they they will have like people who they will have animals that will grieve for them. It will cause suffering. Well, well, yes, but it's not a human. So, so you would say that this and this is so you're saying the suffering doesn't matter as long as it's not a as long as it's not a human.
>> Not as much. No. So, you're this is step Oh, so human suffering is worse than other animals suffering. No, because you're taking this utilitarian stance that it's about what is worse for the the suffering victim.
>> Have you ever heard of the utilitarian monster?
>> No.
>> Okay. So, it's it's a it's a philosophical trap, and it's going to seem ridiculous at first, but let's say we have this monster, and it it experiences pain, suffering, but also pleasure at a 9.7 trillion times rate as to any other creature. So, it's its experiences of suffering and enjoyment are increased maximally compared to what we are, an infinite amount.
And when a human dies, that being, that monster gets so much more enjoyment than the suffering of the person.
>> I don't value enjoyment though. I only only care about de getting rid of minimalizing suffering. I maximizing pleasure sounds.
>> Let's say the monster suffers 10 times more than the suffering victim human.
>> If you don't kill them.
>> Yeah, if you don't kill them. So, should we kill that human so that that monster doesn't suffer?
>> That is a good question.
>> I didn't come up with it, but it's a it's a >> Yeah, I haven't heard it.
>> I have like heard of a lot of stuff lately that has challenging me is like one of the the big things I think is like like incest. Uh, I as long as everyone's okay with it, it's not hurting anyone. I think it's gross. It's disgusting, but so is like eating poop. I think of it as the same way. Think can a thing can be gross without necessarily being immoral. But like this, so I like I've defended stuff like that, but this tricky.
>> I I'm tempted to say I would kill the person.
>> That's crazy, Hank.
>> Respectfully, >> that's absurd.
>> That's fine. I think your views are equally crazy.
Um, >> I this you hearing me is the same as me hearing you. That >> really >> I I know it does sound that way, but like it's the same for like whenever whenever you hear like someone talking about like, you know, a religion you don't believe. That's what I hear when I hear someone talk about Catholicism.
It's the same thing.
>> It I know like you think that oh common sense and whatnot. No one's common sense is the same. And I know there are other people who do share my view because I've encountered them. Well, first of all, the point of common sense is that it's common among people.
>> Yeah, common sense isn't >> you say you would say not everybody has the access to common sense, but common sense is the same across all people. Um I I I just want to I just want to clarify something. You believe that it is as crazy for me to say that I don't think abortion should happen. It it is equally crazy to you saying that you would kill your grandma or you it's morally permissible to kill your grandma simply because she is in a coma and not feeling things.
>> No, I think it is okay because no one is harmed.
>> Okay. But you think >> just because she's in a coma, people could still get hurt if like they had people who loved her and they they want her alive.
>> That's okay.
>> Let's here's something. Let's say we have the entirety of the planet, entirety of the human race, >> and you would wipe them out because this this monster would Yeah.
>> Well, no, no, no. That's that's not it.
>> No.
>> The entire work, too.
>> Goes into a coma.
>> Okay. All of them except for you. You don't have any medical experience. You don't know if they're going to wake up or not, but everybody is. Is it morally permissible for you to kill all of humanity so that you can have consistent meals to eat?
I don't know. Or I or I do know for a fact that they will wake up.
>> You don't know.
>> I don't know.
>> You don't know if they're going to wake up.
>> So in that case there if there's a possibility that they could wake up, I wouldn't say. But let's let's say you're starving and you're you are going to die for sure if you don't have these meals.
You are going to suffer and under your utilitarian framework that suffering will be greater than the possibility of somebody suffering, right?
>> How would me suffering be greater than like all everyone on earth?
>> Well, you're only you're only going one at a time.
>> Okay. So, you're starving and let's say your grandma is first in line because we've been picking on her a lot. You're starving >> and you need a meal to eat. Your grandma, she's unconscious. You know for a fact she's not feeling things, >> but you don't know if she's going to wake. We'll say there's a 50-50 chance that she wakes up.
>> 5050? No.
>> Well, well, hold on. Hold on. Because I'm I'm holding you to your moral framework because now >> Oh, I appreciate I want this. I I like when people challenge my views. It's good. You you are either going to die for sure 100% in the next five minutes.
100% a human being will die and suffer.
That is you because of your hunger. Or you can chop your grandma's off >> 50% chance someone will die.
>> Yes. Or you can chop your grandma's head off, ensure that you don't die, and you're only risking a 50% chance that she wakes up. Is that more >> Well, after you've cut your head off, she's probably not >> Well, yeah, she's definitely not okay after that.
Um, I'd say yeah, it's okay for me to kill her at that point because I I in the attempt of minimizing suffering on average, >> you would have less suffering.
>> Okay. Yeah.
>> So now you've killed your grandma >> and we're moving on to the next situation >> and it's the same thing over and over repeated repeatedly.
>> Same thing over and over repeatedly.
>> But if it's a 50/50 chance every time, then don't make a probabilistic error.
Don't do it.
>> Huh?
>> Because remember they they don't add together. 50 does not add to 50 and make a 100. Instead, it's it's just a 50% outcome each time. So it's not, oh, she's bound to wake up. It's a 50% each time. They don't add to each other.
So a 50% chance the next time >> realistically half the world if it is a true 50% chance >> half the world would wake up.
>> But you made that choice with your grandma knowing it was 50/50. So why is it any different?
>> Yes. Because I didn't realize you were going to ask the question for the for the next person. If it's the entire world and you're going through one by one, then that's different.
>> Okay. So now that you know >> I thought it was an isolated scenario of just me in the room with the grandma.
>> Okay. Okay, so now that we're going to keep going, let's let's run it back to you with the grandma. Is it wrong for you to eat your grandma with the same 50/50 scenario? You you're not sure if people are going to start waking up after you do this because it's still 50/50, but is it okay for you to eat your grandma knowing that that's going to be the future of the situation >> then? No.
>> So, what changed morally? What changed?
Okay, that's good. That's good. It is. It is.
I I like these types of questions. Phil are good. I like these. Yes, this is an enjoyable conversation.
In that case, I would have to go with then on on its own then it >> I would have to say on its own then I guess it wouldn't be morally acceptable though.
>> Okay.
>> Because if you would think about it in that scenario then it wouldn't be which then you would have to apply it to the individual. Okay.
>> So I would just change my answer.
>> Okay. I'm going to pause you. This is very interesting. So what we just what we just determined is that even if it's a matter of life or death, even if you are about to die, it is not okay to take >> I see a non-scentient human being. It's never okay to take the life or well never not you didn't concede to never, but it's not okay to take that life of a non-scentient human being. So when it when we go back a chance okay I see.
>> Yeah. So when we go back to abortion >> that is very >> that is well done sir. Well done.
>> Thank you. I appreciate that. I like I like moral philosophy. When we go back to abortion just just to make sure that everybody's following. When we go back to abortion, right, and we have this fetus, even if it's life or death is what that scenario that we just laid out, even if it's life or death, taking the life of that human being is still morally wrong. Even if it's life or death for you. So, when it comes to somebody getting an abortion, um, we'll say because they don't have enough money to raise the baby. Do you think that's morally justifiable?
>> That was another one that I was thinking about. So, like overall, the suffering that they could go through their entire life, could that be more than the suff than than than dying?
Well, remember it's not even about the experience of suffering because your grandma wasn't going to experience any any suffering.
She wasn't sentient. She was asleep >> with the 50% chance she wakes up.
>> Yeah. But either way, she wasn't going to feel anything. So, similarly with the with the baby, >> the baby won't feel anything regardless.
Yeah. Yeah. But it's it's not just a a moral question of is because we kind of moved away from utilitarianism. I don't know if you noticed that.
>> Yeah. No, I I' I've noticed. Yeah.
>> Yes. So, just because the the child will suffer doesn't mean that we can just terminate its life. So, a a kid with I don't know what suffering we're talking about. Let's say there's a super impoverished kid going to have a super hard life. They're five years old. We can't just take that kid's life, right?
Just because we know that there's going to be suffering down the road that's worse worse than death because >> that's worse than death.
>> Yeah.
>> I I don't know if I agree with that though.
>> I Okay. So, if you have >> it is worse than death than >> if you had well suffering wise. So So from your utilitarian standpoint, we we'll take a a kid in the Gaza Strip right now starving. Okay. Let's say you have an infallible knowledge that this child is going to starve every day for the le rest of its 60-year life. It's never gonna die, but it's going to starve. And then when it turns 60, it's going to die. That and then let's say you also have this magical ability to slice off this child's head and it's minimized to >> two seconds of suffering.
>> Okay. Two seconds. Sure.
>> Two seconds of suffering.
Is it okay to take that child's life because you know that they're going to be hungry later in their life?
I think so.
>> You think so?
>> I mean, yeah. It's less suffering.
>> Wow. We should not let you on the Red Cross. That would be uh that would be very bad for >> I I don't disagree. No, I would. I'm Here's the thing. What I think is moral is not the same as what I would do.
>> Yes. Yeah, that's a big thing of like so like when you're talking about stuff like the trolley problem, >> what your answer is is not what you would actually do, it's what you think you should do. There's a there's a guy named Paul actually, St. Paul one, >> who writes a very similar thing to that uh and is I think it's first Corinthians. He talks it's first Corinthians or Romans. He says uh what he wants to do he does not do and what he does not want to do he still does. Um it's very similar to what we're talking about right now. It's almost like the person who wrote that book was >> I still think I would struggle to take a human life even knowing that it would be okay.
>> Why do you think that is?
>> You're going to say like it's the inherent moral thing, but I'm sure >> obviously that's my stance. But >> yes, >> why do you why do you think that that is?
Because even causing any suffering at all is difficult regardless of if it's less.
>> Okay. But >> it's easier to do nothing than it is to actively cause suffering.
>> Let's say you have to >> even if it is >> let's say you have to actively choose either way though. So, let's say you're in a position where you're in like this weird demigod scenario where you can create you you are creating you have to create you're being forced by some outside entity. You have to create a child who is either going to live to 5 years old and then you're going to cut off their head or you're going to create a child that lives to 60 years old and they starve. Same situations earlier, but now you have to make an active choice for either.
>> If it's the active choice, then I wouldn't struggle.
>> Okay. What What would you do?
I I would probably do the cut off head then if it was me having to actively create the child.
>> Okay. Why do you think >> that's pro? No, I'm saying that's what I would probably do. I'm not saying it's certainly more moral.
>> Do you think when when faced with because remember you're still the one who has to cut off the head. Do you think when faced with that situation you would you would still do it >> morally when you know that there's going to be the six to your life?
>> Yeah.
>> Really?
>> I I would cut off their head. Yeah. You don't think your emotions would would tell you to do otherwise?
>> This kid is sobbing, begging, and pleading with you. You think you would still cut off their head to prevent them from?
>> I do think I would >> to prevent them from starving in the future.
>> Yes, I do. I genuinely do.
>> Now, what if the kid says the phrase, "I don't care how much I suffer. I just >> doesn't mean anything." They can say that, but they know. I don't think they actually do.
>> Now, this is a very interesting thing.
You believe that your interpretation of their suffering trumps their own personal autonomy to how they suffer in their life and to what they experience. So let's say I support a federal ban on abortion. Does my interpretation of utilitarian suffering where I think that we should protect babies. Should I then have the control over the autonomy of suffering for all of the women because of my personal opinions?
>> That's the great thing about government is see I don't think any one person's moral view should dictate the entire entire world regardless of what my beliefs are >> collectively >> even if I think it may be immoral.
>> Collectively they have to though correct personal opinions have to rule a government.
>> Yeah. whether it's one person or a collective.
>> Yes.
>> And so let's say collectively the government agrees.
>> Okay.
Then I'll probably hate the government.
Um >> Yeah.
>> But you see how that sim that situation is similar.
>> Yes, I do. I do.
>> Okay. Well, that's good. Um >> we making good points. I definitely agree. They are good points. I I do think my views are a bit radical and maybe I'll probably change my mind. You will sooner rather than later, I'm sure.
Just right now, it's kind of what I've stuck to. And I am also like I try to hold myself to consistency as much as possible until I find like it just to be ridiculous.
>> Yeah.
>> So, they think that's the most fair thing to do. I fully agree with you and that is why I'm often called a radical Catholic is because a consistent Catholic.
>> Yes, it it's hard to be consistent. It's hard because you make people will make you sound ridiculous and if you stick to your views, >> you either won't think it's ridiculous because you are so stubborn or you'll eventually agree with them because you've gone through everything.
>> Yeah. There is one thing I I've I've gone through quite a few world views.
Utilitarianism was one of them for a while.
>> Yes.
>> Um and >> in the boat.
>> Yes. I've I I think I've faced that humiliation in pretty much every single worldview that I had. The only one that I not faced that humiliation is is in Catholicism. And this is not me. This is not this is not the the whole holistic >> bringing you to Jesus evangelization moment. I wish I could orchestrate something like that. Unfortunately, >> yeah, unfortunately I'm not um good enough to do that yet. Maybe I'll be able to orchestrate something like that.
However, um I have never faced that humiliation within Catholicism. Um, I find it is obviously if someone has the truth, let's say there is one true worldview. I'm >> I will say of all the Christianity there is, all the Christian denominations, the people I like talking to the most are Catholics because they're the only reasonable ones.
>> We We are the only >> If you're going to be a logical Christian, I would say you would have to be Catholic. That's you. You You would I think you could you would like the Eastern Orthodox, too.
Okay.
>> Uh they're more they're the only thing where I think you're a scholastic guy which which is like Aristotilian metaphysics. You seem like you like scholasticism. You like um having logic coincide with faith if you if you were >> um the Eastern Orthodox do not do that as much. They're mythicists or mysticists. Sorry, not mythicists.
That's that would be uh wrong for me to say. Um >> if you're relying on unprovable things, then it's >> well okay. So they they wouldn't necessarily say unprovable, but they they like to stray away from um logical fra overarching logical frameworks >> because they think that some things are unable to be known by us. And we agree with that to an extent, but they they uh hypermphasize it, I guess you could say.
So one of the doctors of the Catholic Church is this guy named Thomas Aquinas.
St. Thomas Aquinus.
>> Yes, I've I've heard the name.
>> He's he's wonderful. I am a big fan. I don't know if you could tell. Um, I pray to him often and he he basically reintroduced Aristotilian metaphysics back into Christianity. He like kind of revamped uh scholasticism. Not fully, but he played a major part in that because most people at his time thought the Arisatilian categories and Arisatilian metaphysics as a whole was like heretical and oh, you can't have that coincide with >> there's a lot of Catholic drama and that's the other fun part.
>> We do have a lot of Catholic drama. Uh but no, you should read St. Thomas Aquinus Suma Contraentila's book one on God.
>> Okay.
>> And >> I might need to write that down.
>> Yes.
>> Putting my notes at.
>> Yes.
Suma. S U M M A >> Contra.
>> Yeah. Suma as in like summary. Um Suma and then Contra. C O N T R A.
>> You're gonna have to submit. I just opened.
>> Okay. Okay. Sorry.
>> Suma. Su Ma.
>> Yes.
>> Sure. There's Latin because there always is.
>> Latin though.
>> Uh, Contra. C O N T.
>> Yep.
>> And then Gentilles.
>> Gent E.
>> Just Gentiles is is how you spell English.
>> Okay.
>> And then book one on God.
>> Not as in I'm putting this on God, yo.
But more so uh about God.
>> Yes.
>> I think I have I think I have my copy.
Oh, here it is.
>> All right. Thank you.
>> Uh, Suma Contra Gentil's book four on salvation.
>> Okay.
>> Um, with me right now, I have I have book one somewhere. I might have given it away. Um, but >> someone in the chat says I want to debate Catholicism and abortion.
>> Well, >> I'm I'm still here though. I'm still here.
>> Yeah, >> I I agree with him on plenty. That doesn't mean I don't disagree.
>> Yes, we we have had some very very good conversations. These are good conversations. I will >> I have about 10 to 15 minutes before I need to end the stream.
>> Do you want to try and within five minutes debate the existence of God?
>> So, I think that could that could do some cool things.
>> I do think if Yes. And also, if possible, I already subscribed because I'm like, "Okay, I definitely want to talk to this guy more if I can."
>> Of course.
>> I I've been curious. I was like, "Okay, none of the none of the Christian like apologetics I've ever encountered have been like have used any good logic."
They're usually not using logic. They're using faith. And that's I think the struggle for me is I think if you can show a logical argument to me and then bring me to the faith. That's the order it would need to be to convert me back.
>> Trent Horn. Go watch Trent Horn.
>> Yeah. Who?
>> Trent Horn. He's the guy.
>> I already know. I already saw him.
>> Oh, really? And you're not you didn't you weren't convinced?
>> No, I h I guess I haven't seen the right videos. You could probably >> I subscribed to him.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. Yeah. He has some real his debates against atheists in particular are very good.
>> I recent Yeah, that it honestly only swayed me further.
>> Okay. Did Which one did you watch? Alex Okconor. The >> most recent I saw the Alex Okconor I but I actually watched the Apologia cover of it.
Okay. Interesting.
>> Do you know Apologia?
>> Uhuh.
>> You don't? Okay.
>> He's I'd say he's the Trent Horn of the Aposts.
>> Interesting. I'll look into him.
>> I honestly I'm honestly kind of iffy with Alex.
He has like he is definitely well read and everything, but like the way he goes about it I disagree with. If that makes any sense. I could get into it, but okay. I want to debate the existence of God first because we're going to One more one more recommend J recommendation. Jay Dyer. If you ever >> Jay Dyer Okay.
>> J Oh, if you Oh, I'm giving you a treat.
Jay Dyer. He is >> I'm sure you are. I appreciate it.
>> He is a a real D-word. Um, but in like the most entertaining and wholesome way possible.
>> Okay, >> you will like him. Um, I like Jay Dyer quite a bit. He's he's pretty cool. Um, he scares me though because he's an Eastern Orthodox Christian.
He used to be a Catholic. Um, and he asked me to debate him and I was like, "Not a chance, dude. You are very very He's Yeah, he makes me look like an act like an infant." Um, which we should not kill, by the way. Um, >> and you're you're giving me more and more scenarios where I'd agree with you.
So, >> that's awesome. Praise praise the Lord that we we don't want to kill infants.
Uh, okay. Existence of God.
>> I never wanted to kill infants.
>> Yes, of course. Of course. I I was I was being uh >> Yes.
>> Yes. Um, >> I also see it regardless as more of a necessary evil.
>> Yes. Um, okay. The existence of God.
I'll run a quick argument past you. I'm going to use some Aristotilian phrases.
If you don't know what they are, no worries. I can explain them briefly.
>> Okay.
>> Um, okay. So, premise one is that everything that has parts has potency.
>> What do you mean by that? I don't know that.
>> Okay. So, so parts, you probably know that things that are made up of parts, like this rosary, for example, it's made up of beads. The beads would be considered parts. Um, the rope would be considered a part. But even within the bead, the different molecules that make up the bead, those are parts. Um, and the atoms that make up those molecules, those are also parts. Okay.
>> Potency is the um logical ability for something to be a way other than it is.
So, let me give you an example. This always helps. I have a mechanical pencil here. Um, it is it has potency because it's made up of parts. And it right now one of those parts is yellow or one of those parts is this lead. It is it is a logical reality where there is more or less lead inside of this pencil or where this pencil is purple instead of yellow or green, whatever you want to call it, or where the eraser is not rubbed away as much. Those are log logical possibilities and we can actually see that being enacted. I'll make one of those logical realities happen right now by rubbing it on my hand a little and now there's less eraser than there was before. So that is the potency becoming actuality. Does that make sense?
>> So potency is possibility >> in a sense. Do do you I don't you might remember this from physics class. uh potential energy, >> yeah, >> has the ability to be something else.
It's stored energy basically. And so this is the metaphysical version of that.
>> Oh, so potency as in like potential.
>> Yes.
>> Okay, that makes more sense.
>> Perfect. Perfect. Okay, >> great. Okay, now we move on.
>> So anything made up of parts has potency.
>> Yeah. Premise two, potency implies an outside cause. So for example, an outside cause is just anything that um actualizes something.
So this pencil has this amount of eraser and the only reason that it has this eraser, this part that has been um potentialized, you could say um the only reason that happens is because of me in outside cause rubbing it away. But we could also take this guitar pick. It is a triangle. It is red, white, and blue.
The reason that it is like that is because of the outside cause of the manufacturer that made it that way. So anything that has potency has an outside cause.
Does that make sense?
>> Okay. But so the fact that it has different possible parts means that it has a creator.
>> Well, I didn't use the word creator very specific.
>> No, not has an outside cause that enacted it to be that way. So name name that has potency. Anything that has potency.
>> Yeah. It'll be pretty much any object you can think of ever.
>> Yeah. Okay. Like my phone could be on or off.
>> Yeah. Or just just your phone period.
Your phone >> on or off is actually a great example.
Your phone is off right now, I assume.
>> Um and that's because you have not turned it on or because there's a mechanism in your phone which automatically turns it off. So that's the outside cause that is enacting upon the potency or that is causing the potency that is in said object.
>> Okay. So we agree on premise one.
Everything with parts has potency. We agree on premise two. Everything with potency has an outside cause. We're good.
>> All right. I I think so. Yes.
>> Okay. Premise three. The universe as a whole, all of material existence is made up of parts. Yes. Okay.
Premise four, which is a conclusion of premise one, two, and three. All of the universe as a whole has an outside cause. All of the material universe as a whole has an outside cause.
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. Let's pause there. We're going to ask some questions. What does that outside cause look like to you? to me I so I am a materialist so I've assumed that so far because we know we know that something caused the big bang >> scientists are still trying to figure out but obviously I like to think it's probably still some other natural cause that is just not understood yet we know that it was quantum fluctuations I think is the current theory >> yeah well well still let's let's take those quantum fluctuations for example, those are still things that have potency, right? Because they are a certain way.
>> The thing is, I don't think that's fully understood yet. So, it may or may not apply to the same rules within our universe because if it is outside our universe, then it no longer applies with the same rules within our universe.
>> Any outside cause of the universe.
>> So, we're not saying that it's rules.
>> I I the claim the outside of our universe is referring to physical universe, not metaphysical universe. So while physical laws such as gravity um you know the laws of thermodynamics those may not apply uh to things outside of our physical universe metaphysical reality still do repi apply because they are not dependent upon material reality.
>> Okay.
>> So those quantum fluctuations they could abide by any laws of physics that they want but metaphysically they are a certain way. So let's say one's fluctuating this way one's fluctuating this way. If it's this way and this way, well, there has to >> be the other way.
>> It could be the other way. So, there has to be an explanation or an outside cause as to why >> why it is one way over the other.
>> Yes.
>> Okay. I'm starting to get it now. Why?
>> Yes.
>> So, you're saying there multiple possibilities, there has to be a reason why one possibility happened and the other it hasn't.
>> Yes. Aquinus is smiling right now. So, um no matter how >> no matter how far back you go in time or >> Yeah. You know, another way you could put it, no matter how far you go, um, super uh, abundantly, super physically, um, and the superiority of being, no matter how far you go in either direction there, there is always going to be a cause before that, an outside cause, no matter what you look at. Would you agree?
>> I would say yes.
>> Okay. Analogy. Imagine we have a chandelier >> and there's these chains that are holding up the chandelier.
>> Yes.
>> That would be our our chain of potential reality that we've been discussing.
>> Yes.
>> If that chain goes on forever, it will never hang in the air as our reality is.
Our our reality will not hold together.
However, if that chain is grounded to a ceiling, then it will. So >> the question is metaphysically what is the ceiling that is holding up this chain of potentiality?
>> So you're saying like there can't be an infinite recession?
>> Yes. Infinite regress would be a logical impossibility.
>> That's the thing I that that's another thing I still have need to be convinced of. Like even the stuff of like you know oh like our universe couldn't be infinite because would you say the same thing?
>> Well I say I say physically the universe could be infinite.
>> Okay. Physically, we couldn't have an infinite regress. Yes. But I'm also asking, would you would you say it's also impossible for the universe to have always existed?
>> I think if the universe has always existed, it would have to be actus purus. Have you heard that phrase before?
>> No.
>> Okay. It's a Latin phrase meaning >> I got that.
>> Yeah. Pure pure actuality is what it means. So if the universe has always existed, it means that there's no potency inside of it because there is no outside cause affecting it to make it the way it is because it's eternal. There's nothing before it to affect it.
>> So in other words, anything with parts >> cannot be infinite.
>> Yeah. Cannot be in eternal would be the word.
>> Anything with parts cannot be infinite.
And that's why it's a core doctrine of tomistic theology that God is not made up of parts. We believe there are no parts in God.
And so we believe that the eternal you I I think you're it's there for you right now. You're you're realizing that there has to be something that is eternal.
That's why you offered up the explanation the universe is eternal, right?
>> Yeah.
>> So you understand that there has to be something that is eternal. That is the grounds for all of this.
>> Whatever the eternal thing is must be without parts.
>> Yes.
>> And so that that leads to a bunch of other conclusions as well because a actus purist being >> or the grounds for all reality is how I'm going to refer to it just so that we're not characterizing any presuppositions of a god. I'm not going to call it him yet or he or uh give it any personal attributes but this grounds >> more convincing. Yeah.
>> Yes. which we can hopefully.
>> Yes, this grounds for all reality that we have has no potency meaning that there is no logical reality in which it could be another way than it is which is super interesting and that has a lot of implications. Does that does that follow with what we've talked about so far though?
>> Yes, it it does.
>> Okay. So if there's no logical reality in which you could be any other way, that means that you are maximal. You are a maximal being. So and an infinite being as well. Because if you are infinite, you take up all that there is.
There is no logical reality in which you are another way because you are all logically.
>> Yeah. Because if you're not, then you can't have you can't be the without having the infinite regress. And we can't have the infinite regress. So that >> so right now we have a grounds for all reality, an eternal grounds for all reality that is also infinite in nature and lacking potency.
Now a maximal being also includes these the omni omni.
>> Hold on. I have a question.
>> Okay. If it just has to be finite, why is it only at one?
Wait, if it just has to be finite for the number of regresses back. So like say like the cause of like you know what the universe and then whatever going back and back and back.
>> Why is it like God immediately created the universe? Why couldn't it be God created this and then this and then this and this and this and this and this all the way down to the universe? Why couldn't we be way further down?
>> Why couldn't we be way further down? So the act of creation through this this foundational being that we've discovered metaphysically here that act is is a chain. We believe that there was a beginning to this chain and then things followed because of the potentiality in that creation. And so we just so happen to be at this point in the chain.
And and and we also believe that God is actively sustaining that chain. So it's not like he did like a one and done and then walked away. Like we said, he's the grounds for all like existence. He is the fabric of the universe. I'm saying he sorry. This being >> I I don't mind at this point.
>> Yeah.
>> The fa the fabric of the universe. It sustaining. So it's it's not one and then another. It's actually >> all.
>> Okay.
>> But we exist in time. So we see it as a beginning and then it go.
>> Okay. So we have this being. We've agreed that it's a maximal. A maximal being infinite eternal.
>> Yes.
>> Within that that maximal there there's these descriptors called the omni omni omnipresent omni >> uh like what?
>> No like omnisient and >> all omni benevolent and whatnot like all loving uh allloving all powerful and all knowing. Right.
>> Yes. Um and and I'm sure you would object to the all good and all loving being.
>> Yes. I I absolutely would. I'm >> I'm fine with I'm fine with the all powerful. The all powerful one I I had already gone to. It's usually the >> the I the the two that I think conflict is well actually just the one that conflicts would really just be all good.
>> You could be all knowing and all power.
>> The one that gives you pause is the personal attributes.
>> Yes. If you're going to apply personal attributes, that is definitely >> No, but you you would agree I'm assuming with um omnipresent meaning that it is everywhere.
>> Yeah.
>> Because fabric of the universe that it is all knowing because obviously it knows all things that it subsists through.
>> I think I've already been convinced of this before these two premises and I just the >> the person it was another Catholic much younger than you and obviously much less well read. He he said he wanted to he he's a he's trying to be a priest one day. I don't probably like him.
>> Uh yeah, he he seemed cool, but he struggled. He we didn't have enough time to go through the whole loving one because he's like, "Oh man, I'm gonna have to prove every single miracle and all these things."
>> Yeah.
>> He didn't know the right way to go about it. Yeah. But he was able to I was like, "Okay, well that you you made me at least an agnostic atheist." So >> yes.
>> Well, I wouldn't even say you're agnostic anymore. What you've described so far, even without >> would at least be theist.
>> You would be theist for sure. You would be theist. You've described a god. We've described a god together. to like in all for all purposes. Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> Something beyond >> what is currently in the universe. Yeah.
>> Yes. Okay. That's >> fair.
>> I I I want to get to the personal attributes because this is what Aquinus does a really good job of explaining in Suma Controentil that book I recommended to you. Um >> I will read. Thank you.
>> Yes. Yes. Um it is greater for a being to know itself rather than a being to not know itself.
Would you agree?
>> Greater for a being to know itself rather than to not know itself. Yeah.
>> Yes.
>> Self-awareness. Yeah.
>> Yes. Well, not just self-awareness, but I >> understanding.
>> Yeah.
>> And understanding of oneself. And this is gonna this is going to blow your mind.
It blew my mind when I found it out.
>> The persons of the Trinity are actually just reflections of the different itelves within this being. So God knows himself or God knows itself. That is the son. The knowledge of God of God knowing himself is the son >> and it is great.
>> So he is running running around representing the knowledge of God and giving the knowledge of God.
>> Well, not just not just representing but >> he is the knowledge of God and he is God itself. He's >> because God is everything about it.
Meaning he is knowledge of God. So the knowledge of God is him. That would make sense. Okay.
>> Yes. Yeah. So, so we don't believe um that God is made up of parts. We talked about that. So, >> I was kind of I was wondering I was like he's probably going to explain it. I thought >> the knowledge of God is God itself. The love of God is God itself. So, it's also it's also greater in this act's purest being for a god to love itself rather than to hate itself >> or to lack love for itself. And so the love of oneself, the God's love for himself itself is the Holy Spirit.
That's what we would see a reflection of as the Holy Spirit, the father. It's it's greater. Aquinus points this out explicitly without even recognizing that he would later make this argument down the road um that it's greater for this being to be the master of itself, the master of its own will than to be subject to its own will.
>> Yeah. Therefore, that is the father. And that's what we see as the reflection of the father. So it's not like the the persons of the trinity are just like willy >> they're just different attributes of the same being.
>> Yes. That's how that's a way you could phrase it. They're reflections of the essence of God which I think is just so beautiful. Um >> that is that is pretty cool. Yeah. I will >> Yes. Okay.
>> Interesting way to look at it.
>> Yeah. So now that we have um the the knowledge of oneself, the love of oneself and the mastery of oneself that we see in this foundational being, I want to focus in on the love specifically. If if this God loves an infinite being and the entirety of that infinite being and that love is God itself, that is all lovingness, the omni love.
And then if if a creation is introduced, if this God quote unquote in human terms decides to create, the love that is experienced within God within himself is then shared to that creation through experiences of God.
>> If God is the allloving of God, would it wouldn't that make him also the all-hating of God too?
So >> yeah, you're this is very interesting conversation.
I'm having fun, guys. Very interesting conversation.
Apologies, my mother.
>> No, you're good, man. Um, we do we do have to wrap this up soon, but I'm having a blast. I want to talk to you more.
>> Me, too.
>> Um, >> definitely.
>> But no, God God would not be all hating of himself because hate metaphysically is the absence of love. We don't believe that hate is like a material thing that you can grab or even a real existence.
There is only a love or a lack of love.
>> Yes. And hate is experienced as the lack of love.
>> So it's not a negative. It's just the zero.
>> Yes.
>> Wait, so does that mean So neutrality is a positive?
>> Um, okay. Well, what do you mean by neutrality?
>> Well, because obviously it's not always just I love or hate this thing. There's also I just don't care.
>> Let me let me let me explain it in an analogy.
We can view love as light and hatred as darkness.
>> Yes.
>> So ex when you're experiencing it, darkness is a negative exper when you're experiencing it. But in reality, >> darkness itself is just a lack of light.
>> Yes. Now it it would be a negative to experience darkness. It feels like a negative because you experience something. It's a negative.
>> It's a subtraction.
>> Yes. But in reality, physically, it is a nothing. There there's just nothing there. And so >> in the same way evil you experience something. It's not neutrality. It's not like there is no experience but in reality met metaphysically it is the lack of light. And remember we believe Christ is the eternal light. It's almost like all of this is connected.
>> It is it's all coming together. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Um that I I think that's where we leave it now. This was a very good conversation. I am very uh >> very very confident in your ability to read Aquinus, which is not something I can say to uh anybody I know really.
>> I'm only 15.
>> Yeah. Hey, praise the Lord. That's that's very impressive.
>> Thank you.
>> Let's Very good conversation. I I I enjoy having conversations with with with people who are open. Like I like being open. It's just so much better.
It's so much more fulfilling to be granted more knowledge and knowing because like I come at it with the perspective that I can always improve my position.
>> Yes, >> of course you always can. Um I think your position will change.
>> I do think so. I've always thought that.
>> Yeah, >> that's the goal.
>> I think I think everybody's position continues to change until they find something that fulfills them.
>> I would not say I've never met a person who's fulfilled by utilitarianism. Just just throwing it out there. Um, it's not the most >> joyful worldview.
>> I think I think you've done enough to show like its flaws. I'll probably need to find something else of substance.
>> Read Aquinus, you'll become Catholic in like four days. I'm just I'm crazy. Uh, >> we'll see. We'll see. We'll see.
>> Uh, well, I'm gonna answer some super chats, but dude, thank you so much for coming on. Um, >> thank you.
>> Yeah. God bless, man.
>> Subscribe.
>> Yes. All right. See you, man.
All right. That was a cool conversation.
Um, let's uh let let's answer some super chats.
Sorry, I received a a text just now. Um, did we answer this? Yes. Okay, here we are. Just moved new church non-priest gave bread wrong.
Uh, is is this still a Catholic church?
I need more information here. If a a eucharistic minister gave bread wrong body of Christ wrong, uh then that's a problem. You should talk to the priest.
If it's not a Catholic church, then don't go there. Um, thanks for talking to me. Look at what a good community we have. I forgot to ask.
Should I read to get into the hard intellectual stuff and prep for apologetics? St. Terz of Lassu, pray for us. Yes. Okay. I remember this conversation. This was a very good one.
We had some great conversations tonight.
Um, I forgot what I should read uh to Okay, read Aquinus. You're kind of already there. Um, you should read Optatus of Rome. If you want some good apologetics against Protestants, you should read that. Um, if you want atheistic stuff, the best thing that you can do to respond to an atheist is to actually understand their stance. I would read uh Kant, a critique of pure reason. Um, I really like the gay science by Nichze and Beyond Good and Evil by Nichzche. Read as many church fathers as you can. They're super underrated. Some of these guys here I have a I have a whole collection of them. Some of these guys have some like unbelievable arguments against atheism and they just get completely glossed over because they're just viewed as like historical documents instead of like really cool ones. Noah, what if I buy a raw chicken? Okay, come on guys. That video was You took that out of Sam took that out of context. Noah and Sam kiss stream at Vatican 3. We'll see. We'll see if Vatican 3 gets called. I will be there. I will be in the Vatican. Um maybe I'll be the Pope. Pope Noah W.
Love your vids, bro. I'm only 14, but I'm big into apologetics, and your vids are the reason I'm debating converting from a Protestant to a Catholic. Praise the Lord. Thank you so much for your generosity. And uh make the choice.
Become Catholic. Thank you for becoming a YouTube member. Thank you to all of our YouTube members. I don't feel convicted anymore. What do I do? That is the greatest test from God. Um the purpose of a Christian is not to act well when he is convicted. That is not a real sign of a of a convicted Christian.
But rather the sign of a convicted Christian is what he does after he does not feel convicted anymore. A real sign of a Christian is what he does after the moments of joy, the moments of um motivation with God. That is the real sign. So notice that you are not feeling conviction and take that as an opportunity to show your true love for God. That even though you don't feel things right now, you are still there.
you are still working because you love him regardless of your emotions because that's not what worship is based on.
It's not based off of how you feel, but it's based off of what you do when you don't feel things. Um, obviously talk to a priest about it, though. I'm just some random guy on the internet.
Can you answer why Catholic churches have been made into a marketplace selling jewelry, necklaces, rings, book cards, etc.?
I have never seen a Catholic church selling jewelry, necklaces, rings, or book cards. Personally, I've never seen a parish do that. Um, but sometimes they can do that outside of the uh consecrated temple area. Um, you know, for for um but when we're talking about like charity work, like somebody selling jewelry to support like an orphanage, that's not wrong. That's not what Jesus was against. The thing that Jesus was against is that people were taking their own profit and scamming people out of money in the temple. So simply selling something near a church or in a church building is is not the problem. Now I think there are lurggical abuses like I think homalies should not include like a sales pitch for something. Um but no, come on. Like that that's not what it is.
Very different. It's a non-TLM. I was asking if it was wrong. Oh, so if it's a nonTLM, um yeah, so it's a Novasordo mass and there are Eucharistic ministers and they aren't doing it over the handrail. What you should do if you want to emulate the TLM, this is what I do, is I receive on the tongue on the knee.
So, you imitate the guard rail um without having the actual like uh eucharistic rail there. Um that's what I would recommend. Um but it it it's still the Eucharist regardless of who gives it to you. Why did you cut the majestic hair? Thank you for becoming a member for two months. Wow, that's awesome. Um I cut the the majestic hair um for unknown reasons. I still don't know why I did it. Um, but I did it. Universally Christ, $2. Thank you so much. He's here every stream. What a what a guy. I have an appointment with F. Bill at my local Catholic church tomorrow. Father Bill wanting to join and have been going for four weeks now. Any advice? Uh, just pray as much as you can and talk to the priest, not random guys on the internet.
Um, read as much as you can. Um, pray as much as you can. Go to adoration as much as you can and go to OCIA. Go to mass as much as you can even though you're not receiving the Eucharist. um still go as much as you can. Last super chat here.
Please explain what Eastern Catholics are. I find it interesting. So they are um lurggically Eastern. So they they they have divine liturgy, not mass, but they still offer up the Eucharist at every liturgy. Um but they they they celebrate a liturgy that is not uh Roman. So there's the Byzantine Catholics, there's the Melkite Catholics, and they're still in full communion with Rome. They still submit to all of our teachings. They submit to the authority of the pope except for they have some uh typically traditions that follow the liturgies of St. John Chrysstm instead of the liturgies of uh traditional Rome. Uh and there's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't make their liturgies less valid than ours. Um it actually they're equally valid. They're awesome. Um but you might notice some differences. They they sing in different languages than you're used to. Um their creed, they actually recite a slightly different creed. They don't include the filioquay. Um but they still believe in the Felioquay. just don't say it in the creed because they're going back to again the liturgies of St. John Christom which was before the addition of the filioquay to the creed. Um so hopefully that clears it up a little bit. Thank you guys so much for tuning in. This was a great stream and God bless.
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