Norwegian Association Promoting Inclusion And Equality| NBS Breakfast Meeting

[00:00:21]Good morning and welcome back. You are still tuned in to the breakfast meeting with myself Victoria Sekabanza. Now, for many people disability is seen through the lens of limitation. But increasingly, the conversation around the world is shifting from disability itself to the barriers that prevent people from participating fully in society. The question then can Can a deaf person access public information? Can a student with a disability learn in the same classroom as everyone else? Can a qualified professional get a job without facing discrimination? Now, these questions bring us to the concept of reasonable accommodation. And today, we explore what reasonable accommodation really means, what that actually looks like. I'm pretty sure for some of you hearing it for the first time. Now, joining me to have that particular conversation this morning, we have Robert Kwanzaa, who is the executive director of the Uganda National Association of the deaf.

[00:01:28]We also have Ronald Luima, who is from New Depo, and disability inclusion expert James Mosije.

[00:01:37]Welcome, gentlemen, to the breakfast meeting.

[00:01:40]>> Thank you.

[00:01:41]>> Thank you.

[00:01:42]>> Absolutely. Let's Let's start off with the conversation and start with perhaps breaking down what is disability.

[00:01:53]Also, maybe share with us where we are within Uganda. What are the things that we are not understanding, but also meanwhile, allow me to introduce Olivia who's on sign language with us today.

[00:02:04]Uh and I'll start it off with you, Ronald. Uh maybe you could share with us the the the basics. What is it that we need to understand uh about persons with disability and what we are going through uh as a country.

[00:02:17]>> Uh thanks very much. Uh good morning, viewers and listeners. Um disability as a concept is um This is really a substantial functional limitation of a person's activities or participation in activities of daily living.

[00:02:41]And it is uh of course um a situation which could be caused by a sensory mental, physical, or environmental barrier.

[00:02:55]That's That's That really limits you to engage in activities of all spheres of life on equal basis with others. So, the catch here is the functionality that causes a limitation, and that means it communicates to a barrier in the environment around us.

[00:03:15]>> Mhm.

[00:03:15]>> But also, it is caused by It could be a sensory malfunctioning.

[00:03:20]That means when your senses are not functioning well or are not totally functioning, that means there are certain things you will not be able to do, but you require barriers to be broken so that you are able to do it on equal basis with others.

[00:03:33]>> Mhm.

[00:03:34]>> Then we also talking about the physical.

[00:03:36]You have seen some people using assistive devices that help them to move. This relates to the physical uh body physique. And then it also we are talking about the mental ability, the cognitive, the learning, memories. You have heard of people with intellectual impairment. So, there are number of these types, but of course, this is really the impairment that causes one to be limited to from participating in activities of daily living on an equal basis with others.

[00:04:06]>> I'm sure with our our viewers would love to also find out what your disability is, or should I say, your extraordinary ability on how you live your life. Please do share with us, Ronald.

[00:04:18]>> Yeah, the extra Really, there is no extraordinary abilities.

[00:04:23]When it comes to disability, you know, disability really is uh just the the barriers. In fact, disability can also be defined as the interaction between the impairment and the barrier.

[00:04:35]>> Mhm.

[00:04:36]>> But the moment the barrier is not there, then you only have the impairment. For example, I am a person with visual disability or visual impairment. But I may be limited from doing certain things like writing, using a computer because of my inability to see on the screen. But the moment I have a screen reader that can communicate with me, and then I am able to use that computer, then there is no there is no I have no disability to use the computer, but I only have the impairment of blindness.

[00:05:04]So, that means there must be a differentiate a difference between the impairment and the disability. So, the there are of course several and disability next in in in this sense has the the different disabilities the examples. We have visual.

[00:05:22]We have physical, that's visual is to do with sight.

[00:05:26]But also have degrees. We have physical impairment to do with the the physical anatomy of the body. Somebody has malfunctioning of the limbs. They whatever, the physical ability of a person, the mobility and the rest.

[00:05:41]Then we also have others like hearing impairment. They also have the degree.

[00:05:46]There is deafness like our colleague here is signing for. But also we have those who are hard of hearing, the people who have residual hearing, like using hearing aids. And we have also, of course, we have people with albinism. Some people think albinism is not an a disability, but it is.

[00:06:03]Uh we shall have some time to to to eat because all these are in the those all these are reflected in schedule three of our Persons with Disabilities Act, cap 115. The 2020.

[00:06:14]>> Yes.

[00:06:14]>> The schedule then they they clearly stated.

[00:06:17]So, this the experiences, of course, depends on the impairment that you present.

[00:06:25]>> Mhm.

[00:06:26]>> My my experience might not be the same experience that uh our Father uh uh James is facing because of the impairment and Mkwangu's experience might not be mine.

[00:06:40]But specifically, the interventions that you need, as we may discuss in the course of our discussion, we realize that each of the impairment might require a different intervention.

[00:06:50]>> Mhm. Absolutely. Uh allow me to bring you in uh Mr. James. Uh let's talk a little bit maybe even expand uh some more on what Ronald was sharing. Uh maybe you can share with us into the view was, what is it that we as people need to understand about persons living with disabilities? Uh what is it that we are all missing that we don't get to see because uh it's not a part of our lives, perhaps.

[00:07:20]>> Yeah, thank you, Victoria. Good morning, uh uh uh viewers and listeners.

[00:07:26]Um just to add a bit to what uh Ronald said on disability.

[00:07:32]>> Mhm.

[00:07:33]>> Uh disability is a situation that the people with disabilities experience.

[00:07:40]>> Mhm.

[00:07:41]>> And it arises as he just said, it's a relationship. It It arises from a person with an impairment when he or she relates to an environment where there are barriers.

[00:07:56]Now, these barriers may or in most cases inhibit the participation of a person with a disability in a given function, a given activity, or event.

[00:08:08]And um the the or accessing a service.

[00:08:15]Now, because of the impairment, well, like he said, the loss of a limb, the loss of sound, hearing, the loss of ability to see, this person, because of those barriers, may not be able to do a number of things.

[00:08:33]Now, the degree, of course, varies.

[00:08:36]Uh there are those people you have seen who could be called severely disabled.

[00:08:41]What that means is that the the degree of impairment is bigger.

[00:08:47]And also the degree of the barriers from a relationship point of view is also bigger, which makes that relationship complex.

[00:08:57]Hence, the severity of the of the relationship, making one having a severe disability or a mild disability.

[00:09:08]Now, the entire concept in terms of accessibility and inclusion from a point of view is that uh if you want this person who has an impairment to do as expected by him or herself or by the community, then a number of things need to be done to the impairment.

[00:09:27]Either by way of reducing the impact of the impairment by providing an assistive device or a hearing device or a talking machine like the braille the one that Ronald is using or like my friend Robert here talking to you or to the people through an interpreter or the people talking to him through an interpreter. So those are meant to alleviate the impact of the impairment on the functionality of an individual with that impairment.

[00:10:03]>> Mhm.

[00:10:05]>> Now all the policies that we talk about and the interventions are aimed at reducing the impact of the environment on the individual with the impairment or with a disability or improving the functionality of the person with an impairment to be able to manage. In fact if you remove the barriers that we experience like in a lift when we are coming here we use the lift.

[00:10:32]Because we use the lift we do not experience the impact imposed or that would be imposed on us by the stairs.

[00:10:40]>> Absolutely.

[00:10:41]>> So if you wanted to know how I came here you would not realize that I have a disability. So if you do away with the barriers then the disability even would disappear because the person now his ability to function would be improved.

[00:10:57]So when you give someone a limb you actually this person that has been using two crutches like in my case I use an artificial leg.

[00:11:05]If I don't have this leg I will use crutches.

[00:11:09]>> Yes.

[00:11:09]>> If you ask me to do something while I'm holding crutches you will judge me unable because I cannot leave my crutches and be able to do what I'm supposed to do.

[00:11:20]>> Yes.

[00:11:20]>> So if you give me an artificial leg then you will enable me to have my upper limbs released so that I can do other things.

[00:11:31]So even the pity that would be expressed by the people who are seeing me either falling down or struggling would seize.

[00:11:38]And that would improve on their attitudes towards me. In terms of appreciating what I can do or can't do.

[00:11:44]And if I need help, they would even know what to do with me.

[00:11:47]>> So, is that what we mean when we talk about reasonable accommodation?

[00:11:52]>> Um reasonable accommodation is one of the tools to facilitate removing of barriers to bring about participation um within whichever activity and access to services.

[00:12:14]So, basically that's what reasonable accommodation addresses.

[00:12:18]>> Absolutely. Now, allow me to bring in Robert and Robert, let's talk about some of the barriers that you face as a person who has a hearing impairment.

[00:12:32]What are the encounters that you have every day that many Ugandans might not understand?

[00:12:38]Because one would look at you and simply think everything is absolutely normal.

[00:12:44]But talk about the the barriers that you get to experience.

[00:12:50]>> Uh yeah, thank you so much our viewers.

[00:12:54]Uh my disability, first of all, is not visible.

[00:12:59]Yeah, when you just look at me, you may not know that I have an impairment.

[00:13:05]Uh some people may even think that I'm pretending. When they see me smart, they see me driving, then they are like, "No, you are not deaf because you are able to do all these things." So, me as a deaf a person and we have different categories.

[00:13:25]There is a group that is born deaf.

[00:13:28]That one is not able to hear and speak.

[00:13:31]And the first language is sign language for that category of people. Someone who was born deaf.

[00:13:38]And there are people who are born hearing, but because of different causes like sickness, we become deaf. So, that category can lip-read.

[00:13:48]Then there is a category hard of hearing. They have some residual hearing. They can hear something small.

[00:13:56]And that is also a category.

[00:13:58]So, the barriers that we experience as people with hearing impairment is a quite many, but I will summarize them in four uh using uh a cup.

[00:14:13]A, what does A stand for? It stands for attitude. Where the community's attitude is negative, they look at me as a deaf person, and they think that I am useless, I'm not able to do anything, I cannot go to school, I cannot work, I cannot have a family. Uh this is a curse. Maybe you were bewitched. So, that is a negative attitude, and that is a barrier that we people with hearing impairment face to access uh services and opportunities. It is a a barrier.

[00:14:47]Then uh secondly is communication.

[00:14:50]Yes, uh communication uh which is not accessible for me. Yeah, for example, there is a sign language interpreter uh today.

[00:15:00]Uh the sign language interpreter is helping to voice what I am saying, and I am able Yes, Olivia is interpreting, and I'm able to follow all the discussions and to participate very well. But without an interpreter, that means that that is a barrier that I am experiencing.

[00:15:17]Yes, and sometimes uh it's not only my barrier, but it changes into your barrier because you are you are failing to learn sign language.

[00:15:27]Why why aren't you learning sign language?

[00:15:29]So, if you learn sign language, then we can easily communicate through sign language.

[00:15:36]So, that is the second barrier, but me I'm a bit lucky because I learned sign language. I am fluent in sign language.

[00:15:45]But, there are deaf people out there who are not really fluent in sign language.

[00:15:50]Some are using gestures. So, that is also another challenge.

[00:15:55]And the few interpreters that we have, and they are not well facilitated, they are not well paid.

[00:16:04]Then, the third uh, barrier is participation in the community.

[00:16:10]Yeah, we face this barrier. Why? Because information is not accessible.

[00:16:15]Uh, information is not uh translated into a friendly ear format. I appreciate NBS. NBS has sign language interpreters.

[00:16:25]I am able to watch and follow the news on TV. And we we we can also access using captions. We are able to understand what is happening. It is good for us to participate. But, if information is not accessible, if there are no sign language interpreters, then I am stuck. I'm not able to participate in any any program. So, this issue of accessibility, communication, participation, and attitude, those are the barriers that we face as people with hearing impairment in the society.

[00:16:59]Thank you.

[00:17:01]>> Also assume that the the lack of information or being delivered through sign language or in a way that people can understand, does it affect also health care?

[00:17:14]Does it also affect maybe justice? Does it also affect uh public service that you're able to receive?

[00:17:23]How much more does it affect Ugandans living with that disability?

[00:17:33]>> Yes, that is true.

[00:17:36]The impact is big.

[00:17:39]Accessing services. Yeah, for example, I want to let you know that the good news that last week my wife delivered. We're in hospital. I have a baby. My wife is also deaf.

[00:17:52]So, we went to hospital.

[00:17:55]And the doctor asked asked me, "Where is the interpreter?" I told him, "No, I don't need an interpreter here. I can communicate through writing."

[00:18:03]Because I am the husband.

[00:18:05]I can know and I can also enter the theater and assist my wife. So, you can communicate with me through writing. I didn't want an interpreter to see my wife's body. I know. Me as a husband, I'm like, "Yes, I can." What does this mean? The issue of communication and awareness is still a challenge to service providers. Sometimes it may not be attitude, but lack of awareness. Many people with disabilities experience barriers accessing services and information. Like my colleague Ronald with visual impairment, if there is no braille, then the schools I have books, you know, are printed in normal print.

[00:18:51]And they're not accessible if they are not in braille. And with the computers, if they do not have if they don't if they lack that software, then it is a challenge.

[00:19:01]I get to the washrooms.

[00:19:03]Yes, someone with a wheelchair accessing the washrooms could be also a challenge for us to for us to people as people with disabilities.

[00:19:15]Just if the environment is adjusted and is accessible, we can. Yeah, Next Media Park, we appreciate you again. When you get here, there are lifts as James said.

[00:19:32]Someone If someone came with a wheelchair, and if someone Yeah, you can easily interview, but other buildings are not accessible. There are steps. It is It is really a challenge accessing services. For example, if I wanted to meet the minister and I'm using a wheelchair, but the offices are on fourth floor, how do I get there if there is no lift?

[00:19:58]I will fail to access the office of the minister.

[00:20:02]So, sometimes it is stigma.

[00:20:05]Sometimes also low self-esteem to us as people with disabilities. So, as James, my colleague James, explained, we need to remove all these barriers.

[00:20:18]Yeah, sometimes uh me as myself, you don't look at my disability.

[00:20:25]Don't look at James's disability, my disability, but the environment makes us disabled.

[00:20:32]Why?

[00:20:33]Because the environment is not accessible.

[00:20:36]So, we miss opportunities.

[00:20:38]If I came to discuss here and Olivia was not here, that means that I'm disabled.

[00:20:45]But if Olivia is here, that means that I'm I don't have a disability now because I'm able to communicate with you. I'm able to share uh with you. So, the issue of reasonable accommodation is removed helps to remove the barriers to see that society becomes inclusive of all of us.

[00:21:06]Yeah, a a little adjustments.

[00:21:09]Yeah, not only for people with disabilities sometimes.

[00:21:13]Like, for example, if you feel that maybe the lift or maybe the ramp is better, it's not only made for people with disabilities, but for all people to enjoy. You're free to make a choice whether you want to use stairs or today you want to use a lift or a ramp. So, this is These are the issues that we are advocating for today. Thank you so much.

[00:21:35]>> I I Allow me to say congratulations on uh the uh the new baby and for you and your wife. How do you you congratulate like this, right?

[00:21:43]>> Yeah.

[00:21:43]>> [laughter] >> Now, uh James, uh many institutions believe that uh having the ramps that Rob Robert is talking about, uh just having those small small adjustment uh is is is enough. Uh is there more that we can do outside of the physical access? Uh is there more that we don't see uh that needs to be done for that level of accessibility for people?

[00:22:11]>> Um you know, when we are talking about reasonable accommodation, we are talking about enabling, just like I said, to access.

[00:22:23]You know, at the at the at the end of the spectrum of of of our life, we are talking of rights and freedoms.

[00:22:33]And um to enjoy these rights, you need to create an environment where people can ask.

[00:22:43]Because there is no right to that is just a put there for you. You have to demand.

[00:22:48]And that takes me back to what Robert was saying.

[00:22:52]Empowerment of disabled persons so that they can come out and demand these things.

[00:22:58]Because managers of institutions, of organizations, of systems are busy in their own work.

[00:23:08]And they need someone to remind them that look here, I am being left out.

[00:23:13]And that person need to have be enabled to have to build within him or herself to have that courage to come out to ask.

[00:23:22]But that also calls for a number of things.

[00:23:26]We know the way institutions work is through policies.

[00:23:30]If an institution or an organization does not have a policy on disability and you recall Victoria when the world was talking about gender mainstreaming.

[00:23:41]>> Yes.

[00:23:42]>> The issue of having gender policies all over was on every person's lips.

[00:23:48]>> Yes.

[00:23:49]>> And the people went ahead and put these policies in place.

[00:23:53]Uh the in the same vein, if you want to facilitate inclusion mainstreaming of disability, it is important that the institutions come up with policies that detail what the problem is what uh and what are the barriers are and how these can be addressed by both the individuals concerned but by also the institutions that are handling these processes.

[00:24:21]Um we know in this country and in many even homes uh for you to deal with a given problem, you need to develop a budget, a plan, a budget.

[00:24:33]So, if there is no policy in respect to a given issue like in this case of disability the disability people will not allocate resources in that regard.

[00:24:42]So, it is important that the people have policies on disability.

[00:24:47]>> It it is quite surprising that there are no policies yet within those institutions where there needs to be uh put in place.

[00:24:57]Let's talk about education and we'll come back a little bit and talk more about the legal part of it and what needs to be done in that case. Uh Ronald, in terms of education, how far has Uganda come in making uh accessible uh well, making it accessible for children with disabilities such as your own?

[00:25:19]>> Yeah, I think um we can say something has begun. Uh Uganda is first of all, much as we say, this starts now with the law.

[00:25:30]>> Mhm.

[00:25:31]>> We have legal provisions, especially in the Persons with Disabilities Act. There is something that can guide us to establish um accessible support services for for learners with disabilities when it comes to education.

[00:25:47]Like as [clears throat] we said, the fact that disability is not homogeneous, it's it's each disability presents unique needs even in the area of learning.

[00:25:59]>> Mhm.

[00:26:00]>> I if if a child is is presenting visual impairment or physical impairment, the environment must be conducive. There is what we call the learning environment in totality.

[00:26:12]That would include scholastic materials in the school.

[00:26:17]How are these materials designed to meet the needs of all learners, not the need the needs of a learner, not the need of the learners?

[00:26:26]Even when the teacher has to design a lesson plan. I am a teacher by profession, I do.

[00:26:31]You design a scheme of work, you design a lesson plan for a learner, not learners, because learners are not the same.

[00:26:40]And therefore, this we have seen learners one teacher dealing with learners with different impairments, which is next to impossible anyway.

[00:26:52]>> Mhm.

[00:26:53]>> And then the issue is, you know, we don't have the the funds to manage to pay teachers. But okay, if we don't have them, then let's make the institutions train them from the start.

[00:27:03]That when you get to class in the classroom setting, you'll find this nature of children.

[00:27:09]At least they could give you the basics of how you could deal with these learners by designing um there's what we call inclusive pedagogy.

[00:27:19]>> Mhm.

[00:27:19]>> That's related to teaching methods. If you're teaching computer, let's talk about now technology. Everywhere we are talking about digital literacy.

[00:27:28]And I think in some cases in LVI, to the best of my knowledge, computer literacy literacy I think is becoming is becoming a compulsory, I think.

[00:27:38]>> Yes, of course.

[00:27:39]>> Now, just imagine Ronald is in class, he's blind, and he's in a computer lab.

[00:27:44]The teacher's training them, and he's supposed to sit this exam to do computer.

[00:27:48]But the computers are not accessible.

[00:27:51]I think what what now happens is that these facilities are there, technologies are available.

[00:27:57]They are advancing, and we are matching with the evolving technologies accessible. We call it assistive technology is coming on, innovations are on. But I think we are not taking them up to match the learning needs of learners with different impairment.

[00:28:12]>> Mhm.

[00:28:12]>> What I mean apparently we are when we talk about visual impairment, people already know Braille.

[00:28:20]>> Yes.

[00:28:20]>> Holding papers, then that machine, and then you're making that you're printing it out. The machine that I hold now is less than even 500 g, but it is holding books in the entire world, and they are here.

[00:28:32]>> Really?

[00:28:32]>> I am able to read even if I'm doing law.

[00:28:34]>> Mhm.

[00:28:35]>> I just get the entire library and save it here. I put it on my brick card and put in this touch in this gadget. I go home and sit and read.

[00:28:43]I don't need to carry a whole factory of paper. Then you know you have boxes and boxes. This is what we call digital brain. You digitalize it?

[00:28:51]>> Yeah.

[00:28:52]>> This gadget if it is given to a learner in the class, the learner will not need to braille paper, government to spend a lot of money on paper.

[00:29:00]>> Mhm.

[00:29:01]>> After all, we are even protecting the environment. We are now minimizing use of paper or accounts, you know what?

[00:29:06]>> Mhm.

[00:29:07]>> But also sustaining this, if somebody is deaf, technology can also look at that. You know, a learner >> Yes.

[00:29:14]>> use a lot more of pictorial work.

[00:29:16]>> Mhm.

[00:29:16]>> And then things that are This days, I think we are using So, people who know 3D, the 3D print printers there. You do If you're teaching science in the class, there is what we call BBC, body to body contact, object body to object contact.

[00:29:33]Talking about the skeleton, a blind person can touch.

[00:29:35]>> Mhm.

[00:29:36]>> And this thing is in a solid state. The other one is seeing the picture, I am touching the solid of it, the skeleton, and I'm touching the parts. Won't I answer the questions when you read them?

[00:29:46]And then it's all about how do we make ensure that reasonable accommodative methods are responsive to the needs of the learner.

[00:30:01]Because when you are talking about a learner, we are talking about the cognitive ability >> Yes.

[00:30:06]>> of a person to do things.

[00:30:08]In Uganda, I think or in any environment, nobody is unable to do something.

[00:30:16]It's only that you are disabled to do it by either the way you deliver it. We are already communicating to the audience, but they will not understand us the same. When I talk about digital digital brain, somebody will think you will have to look at it.

[00:30:32]But the digital brain again to a blind person is you can use a machine to touch the brain other than putting it on paper.

[00:30:39]And this machine for you, Victoria, who may not read what I'm reading here by touch >> Yeah. I'll remove the memory card and give it to you you can read what I've been touching and you are able to quickly translate into a computer as reasonable accommodation your reason modifying a gadget the digital space to be able to enable that person access the same to achieve the same goal then lastly in terms of of budget I think funding we need to invest a lot in research I think Uganda we have researched so much on politics we have researched so much on theories you have researched so much on things but we are not investing into technologies that enable societies move so we we we really need to invest in reasonable accommodation some of us you need to involve the people the user of a facility the user of the environment research involves consulting people so we want to do something but Ronald how do you think a blind person is able to use a pen can you imagine Ronald use me I write I have a writing guide and I can write something but I have never written I just learned but how I learned it they consulted me on how I should use a pen and I told them then they they designed the writing guide so that I'm able to >> to write >> write so really shh it is the area of education we it requires a lot more a concerted effort between people with disabilities themselves the teachers the people who deliver the education the designers of the education the curriculum apparently I bet whether you will ever see or mainly see learners in the kindergarten ECD learners with the visual impairment or disabilities other disabilities a learner a child is deaf but who want to go for nursery, kindergarten.

[00:32:41]Every child can start with a kindergarten because that's early childhood development, but they miss it out simply because of either inaccessible facilities that could enable them perform to the on equal basis with others. That toy you see, as I conclude, we have bought these toys to children.

[00:33:01]The toy that reads the alphabet, it mentions it does all those, the animations.

[00:33:08]I think it's just a matter of modifying them.

[00:33:12]You don't need a lot of money. Modify it and then it will be able to I mean, the child who has any other particular impairment can be able to use it.

[00:33:21]>> Yes. I mean, you shared very extensively and we just appreciate you for enlightening us. I had no idea about this particular machine. I had never seen it before in my entire life. But thank you for enlightening enlightening us, rather. But there's also coming from education, a very important conversation that we all need to have and I'll start it off with you, James, and Robert, you can also pitch in on this one.

[00:33:45]Employability, being able to participate economically within the country. Talk about the difficulties or the challenges or the barriers that exist for people living with disabilities to get employed or to for them to become employable or to even just be you know, to participate in the economy.

[00:34:08]Mr. James.

[00:34:09]>> Um thank you very much, Victoria, once again.

[00:34:13]Yeah, but before I talk about your question, allow me to shed more light because I didn't finish what I wanted to say in this to what it is that what else needs to be done to facilitate reasonable accommodation.

[00:34:26]You see, we need reasonable accommodation implies there are two people, the service provider and the beneficiary.

[00:34:40]So, the two have to get sit together and to talk about what needs to be done to remove these barriers, budget for them, and then implement the reason of accommodation process, whereby the individual concerned need to be enabled to acquire advice or have a ramp in place or get a a wheelchair, get a braille, you know, computer. All of these interventions have to be agreed.

[00:35:06]So, there has to be that interaction to start with.

[00:35:10]To recognize the will of the of the service provider and the ability of the beneficiary of the given service to interact and agree on how to go about providing what is necessary to improve the performance or the satisfaction of the individual that uh in the uh at the end of the day, so that we see people benefiting from the services that are available.

[00:35:36]>> Mhm.

[00:35:37]>> And now about employability.

[00:35:39]You know, when you talk about employability, economic participation, involvement in what you call so people can generate income, money, so that they can put food on the table, have money in their pockets, meet a number of services.

[00:35:56]Uh the starting point would be to get what to do.

[00:36:00]>> Mhm.

[00:36:01]>> If you want money in your pocket, you have >> something to >> to get what to do that can generate money. This could be employment, this could be an economic activity, uh uh anything that can bring you money.

[00:36:15]Now, that brings us to how do you acquire to to generate the money? You have to have skills, you have to have knowledge. You have to know where work is and how to do that work.

[00:36:25]So, disabled persons, first and foremost, they need to acquire knowledge and skills. And this is what Ronald was talking about. Through our education system, whether formal or informal, disabled persons need to be able to have skills to promote their employability, to be able to do work to earn money.

[00:36:44]What are the challenges that are involved in people with disabilities being enabled to do work, to make money, to sort of their day-to-day problems?

[00:36:55]One, when you go to the places of work, we talked about attitudes.

[00:37:01]Are employers willing to accommodate them?

[00:37:05]Do they see them as people who can be productive?

[00:37:10]Do they look at the disability or the remaining abilities?

[00:37:16]If you look at the disability, you will not employ this person. But if you look at the remaining abilities and the skills to do a given job, then you will employ them.

[00:37:25]So, it goes back to changing attitudes.

[00:37:28]The other is leveling the ground in terms of accessibility to places of work.

[00:37:34]Uh steps, lifts, um information, uh we are talking of a digital age. Do we have machines that can easily be utilized by disabled persons? And if they are there and the disabled person do not have the skills, is there a willingness within the institution to give them those skills? You know, it happens everywhere. When you get new workers in an institution, they don't know everything.

[00:38:02]>> Yes.

[00:38:03]>> They are from school. They are new. Yet, the skills that are required to be productive at a place at a place of work are different in sometimes. But then, you build on what people already know, you give them the right skills, and give them the right But then, it has to start with the willingness to use people to be productive.

[00:38:20]Um the beauty about our country is that we have a good constitution that spells out dignity for persons with disabilities.

[00:38:29]>> Yes.

[00:38:30]>> We have articles 32, 35 that talks about the rights of disabled persons. We have a law, a good law, for the persons with disabilities act that spells out what needs to be done in terms of employment, education, uh health so that our people can be enabled to be active >> participants >> in being productive in an economy that uh is that will come them.

[00:38:57]And uh an economy to which they want to make contribution.

[00:39:01]>> Yes.

[00:39:01]>> But there has to be the will, there has to be the understanding that uh this is what needs to be done.

[00:39:06]>> You put it correctly earlier and you said just the right attitude. I can see what you mean by that because I don't think everyone has an understanding and so the attitude is very vast uh depending on who you meet.

[00:39:18]>> Uh but yes, and and yes, please >> Let me be before you before you move on.

[00:39:22]You see, this this message, this the this um this message we are talking about reasonable accommodation, accessibility, inclusion is not for us who are already disabled.

[00:39:38]>> Yes.

[00:39:39]>> It's actually for those people, the children, >> Yeah.

[00:39:44]>> the grandchildren, those people are moving in cars as we talk now >> Mhm.

[00:39:49]>> who are getting involved in accidents, who are getting sick outside there. And uh when they recover, they may not may have impairments and therefore disabilities. So, it's a concern for everybody and we are calling all to all people to come and join us to level the ground for the participation of all people including people with disabilities to access to services for everybody so that people can enjoy their freedom, their rights.

[00:40:18]So that we can have a better society.

[00:40:20]>> Absolutely. I I I wanted to ask Robert just to share your experience when it comes to employability or even participating in the economy. Did you end up getting into business? Did you end up What what what did you end up getting to do uh in order to be a active a citizen in the economy?

[00:40:39]>> Yeah, thank you so much uh Victoria.

[00:40:42]Yes, I want to start with a brief uh story.

[00:40:46]Uh I am I I am I'm educated. I have been to school. I have a master's degree.

[00:40:54]Yes, we as the people, we can.

[00:40:57]Yes, I took my papers to one organization. I won't name the organization.

[00:41:03]So I went with an interpreter.

[00:41:06]So both of us were there.

[00:41:09]And then people asked me, "Who is Robert?

[00:41:13]Is it you or this?

[00:41:15]And why are two people coming for the interview?"

[00:41:19]So I I told them I am Robert. I have a hearing impairment. I came with an interpreter. Then they said, "All right."

[00:41:27]See, then they they began asking.

[00:41:30]So I I answered using sign language and interpreter was voicing.

[00:41:36]Then they said, "Is it Robert answering or it is you the interpreter helping Robert to answer the questions?"

[00:41:45]So people weren't aware about disability.

[00:41:49]Then I I I I I told them, "All right. Okay. Type the questions, then I can answer them through type."

[00:41:56]And they did that.

[00:41:58]I typed and answered all the questions.

[00:42:01]Then they said, "All right. We'll get back to after a week." But they never got back to me.

[00:42:08]They never.

[00:42:09]Then I got some gossip that another person said, "Mhm."

[00:42:15]The organization cannot employ two people.

[00:42:18]Two people, you you employ a robot, then you you employ a sign language interpreter.

[00:42:23]The issue is that people fear the cost at the workplace.

[00:42:29]Yes, the workplace. The reason The reasonable adjustments that we are talking about are not that expensive.

[00:42:37]It's not a big budget.

[00:42:39]Yeah, for example, NDIS, you have sign up two sign language interpreters.

[00:42:44]What percentage are they consuming from your budget?

[00:42:48]It is 0.000%.

[00:42:51]It's not more.

[00:42:53]So, if it is the issue of cost that is making many employers uh to deny people with disabilities opportunities, then it shouldn't be. If a person with a wheelchair and there are steps, yes, and you feel that maybe someone cannot work here, but with reasonable accommodation, mhm, you can make adjustments. Maybe this person can work from the ground floor.

[00:43:19]So, which So, the costs are not big. It should The cost shouldn't be the issue.

[00:43:25]It shouldn't be the excuse at the workplace. So, the issue here is the work The workplaces need more sensitization on disability inclusion.

[00:43:37]But also flexibility.

[00:43:40]Because, you know, some of us as people with disabilities uh may not sit for for long hours in one place.

[00:43:49]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:43:51]>> Yeah, sometimes I may ask, "Why do some employers want a person to come in the morning at 8:00 then leave office at 5:00?"

[00:44:03]So, someone is here seated.

[00:44:05]People may may even be focusing on Facebook, maybe Twitter, doing their own things and working nothing. But we we appreciate the times of COVID.

[00:44:16]Uh during COVID, it really helped us.

[00:44:20]Of course, it was good and bad, but now we can even work from home.

[00:44:25]People with disabilities, we can have some um flexibility in working hours. If I can come to office for 4 hours, then I'm at home also working. I have my computer. So, for reasonable accommodation, flexibility is key. Working hours, yeah, flexibility. If someone can work from home, yeah, things can go on. What is important is the work being delivered.

[00:44:53]That's why we are talking about reasonable accommodation today.

[00:44:58]And then also co-working.

[00:45:01]The co-workers' attitudes.

[00:45:03]They look at a person with a disability coming to work with me. I'm like, I can't work with that one. No. He he he won't be helpful.

[00:45:11]He he's not learned.

[00:45:14]So, we want to congratulate and thank Victoria.

[00:45:18]That this is how I congratulate. We can even learn some few signs from your interpreter. This is good.

[00:45:26]Then I feel that I am part of the work environment. I am able to teach the co-workers some basics in the sign language, not depending on the interpreter all the time. I'm able to sensitize the co-workers to understand how to communicate with me so that we are able to support each other better. So, that is the experience that I have. But as I conclude, I say in my opinion, yeah, sometimes it is the issue of attitude.

[00:45:57]Attitude is there, yes, but many times also people are not aware.

[00:46:03]Employers are not aware of what to do and the how.

[00:46:07]That is why we as organizations of people with disabilities are here to sensitize the public to know what works best and what is possible and what is reasonable accommodation, the small adjustments that can be made to make the environment comfortable.

[00:46:26]Yeah, we want to let you let you know that the people with disabilities are the best employees.

[00:46:32]We are the best If you employ employ one, they are very committed. We are very committed to our work, very committed and we are productive.

[00:46:42]Yes, we bring results.

[00:46:45]Uh some of us are worried because we get worried that, you know, if we go astray, we will lose the job.

[00:46:52]We'll lose the job. So, that could be an issue. So, awareness is key and sensitizing. But, also some employers abuse the policies. There are policies, there are laws. For example, in a business, if you employ people with disabilities, government waves some taxes. There is a waiver. But, uh some companies just decided to employ people with disabilities at low low low low low cutters, low low low low places, maybe uh cleaners or maybe slashing, those low low low cutters.

[00:47:28]So, that and they of course they are paid lower and then they say, "Mhm, we have people with disabilities working with us." So, that they can get take advantage of the tax waiver.

[00:47:39]Yeah.

[00:47:40]Because again, government had to adjust the law because they were losing lots of money in the taxes. Yeah. So, people with disabilities we also need to be confident.

[00:47:51]We need to be empowered. We need to continue the sensitization of employers.

[00:47:55]We need to show our potential uh so that these barriers can be removed from the employers.

[00:48:03]>> Absolutely.

[00:48:03]>> Thank you so much.

[00:48:04]>> Thank you for sharing those insights as well. I think you you need a show for yourself, Robert.

[00:48:09]>> [laughter] >> Uh Now, if if I may ask uh just even as our time is fast spent, each one of you, uh could you share with me um what does dignity mean to you?

[00:48:27]And maybe let me start with you, Ronald.

[00:48:30]>> Dignity to me is um somebody should consider me human.

[00:48:40]That means I deserve respect like any other. I don't call for it, but somebody must accord it to me because I deserve it.

[00:48:49]And secondly, I must be treated humanly generally but also look at the person in me, but not the disability with me.

[00:48:59]>> Sure.

[00:48:59]>> Because don't look at the impairment.

[00:49:02]It's you who causes it or it's me who causes who causes it. So, dignifying someone is is means that you you front humanity first before the impairment. And then I deserve all the rights, the freedom, and everything that's entitled to others are entitled to.

[00:49:23]>> Absolutely.

[00:49:23]>> But also as I I think personally, I I have I I do business.

[00:49:30]>> Mhm.

[00:49:31]>> Just I don't want to cuz when you do business, you bring money. For me, interestingly, I run a tour company.

[00:49:40]>> Wow.

[00:49:41]That's fascinating.

[00:49:42]>> have never seen forests I've never seen, but I take you to the best place. Ronald can take you to the best place, and my company the slogan is let's go places.

[00:49:51]I'll drive you to where you want all over the Africa, Uganda.

[00:49:55]And when we went to to take the you know, sometimes the companies they call you they say, "Okay, bring your facilities." They asked me, "Ronald, are you a director or you're representing someone?"

[00:50:10]I said, "I'm the director of this company."

[00:50:13]First of all, they looked at the cars.

[00:50:16]They looked at Okay, they were relating at the car they did the transport the whatever they said, "But you Can you imagine?" I had to ask again an interview about how I maintain instead of answering how the services I would offer to them.

[00:50:30]>> Wow. [snorts] >> I said, "I don't worry. I'll do the interviews." Now, in fact, I just discovered that the mind is always focused on the impairment but not exactly what the person you see does. So, the dignity is look at Ronald.

[00:50:53]Don't say P- In fact, we are no longer saying PWDs. PWDs is Public Works Department.

[00:50:59]I think you used to hear PWD.

[00:51:01]>> Yeah.

[00:51:01]>> And the moment you mention that, somebody might think you're an object cuz it's not abbreviating. Sometimes the languages we use indignifies someone.

[00:51:09]>> Mhm.

[00:51:10]>> But I think as we get into understanding how call me by name by name. Say, "Ronald, how are you?" And then that's how I'll tell you. It's Victoria. I'm fine.

[00:51:21]But don't say, "Okay, tell that blind man to come."

[00:51:23]It's true I am, but again it's not my name.

[00:51:26]>> Absolutely.

[00:51:27]>> And so that's indignifying the person. Okay.

[00:51:31]>> Mhm.

[00:51:32]>> And I think the last Peter would want to say is that in reasonable accommodation, we just need to take this guys to cut the catch words here is reasonable and accommodation.

[00:51:43]>> Yeah.

[00:51:44]>> Something reasonable is something you can afford to do within your means without compromising.

[00:51:50]>> He's not asking for too much.

[00:51:51]>> He is not asking too for too much but again don't compromise the dignity of this person.

[00:51:56]If I tell you to to bring a ramp to a work to a workplace, don't again collect all the wood around and then it's okay, put him. You get the sacks and then I mean let's make something provisional but also dignified.

[00:52:11]>> Dignified. Oh, Ronald, I I'd I'd love for you to talk some about James uh in just a sentence, what is dignity to you?

[00:52:18]>> Uh digni- dignity in a sentence is difficult to describe.

[00:52:24]For me, dignity is about uh recognizing that I am a human being that I have needs I have interests that uh if you put yourself in my place you would do to me what you would have wanted to do to yourself.

[00:52:45]>> In short.

[00:52:46]>> For me, that's dignity.

[00:52:48]>> Yeah.

[00:52:48]>> Respect, recognizing that I have needs, I have interests and that uh I have I'm entitled >> Mhm.

[00:52:57]>> to a number of things just like you are.

[00:53:00]>> Absolutely.

[00:53:00]>> Because failure to do that undermines yourself you the self-esteem for yourself >> Mhm.

[00:53:08]>> and for others.

[00:53:09]>> Mhm.

[00:53:09]>> And it will come back against you because you're creating a a culture of disrespect dishonoring people sometimes even dishonoring your children and grandchildren.

[00:53:23]>> Yeah.

[00:53:23]>> Because you're creating a situation that is not desirable >> Mhm.

[00:53:26]>> for uh living a better quality of life.

[00:53:29]>> Absolutely. Robert, dignity for you.

[00:53:34]>> Yeah, thank you so much uh Victoria. To me I want to to use an example.

[00:53:41]Uh dignity I will talk of value.

[00:53:45]Valuing me.

[00:53:47]For example, Victoria.

[00:53:49]As I'm using sign language, I'm seated here. You are looking at me.

[00:53:54]It is good, but many people would look at the interpreter voicing than looking at me who is signing.

[00:54:00]Because they may not know that these are my words. But when you look at me, that shows that you value me.

[00:54:08]You value all the presentations and and what I'm saying doesn't come from the interpreter.

[00:54:14]I say but it comes from from me.

[00:54:17]But you just say you ask him. Ask him.

[00:54:21]Do this to him. It's like you're If you're If If you're asking the interpreter, it means that I am lost.

[00:54:29]And also Yeah, in the morning when we arrived you first asked us where are we going to sit and where is the interpreter uh, sitting. So, I felt involved in the discussion.

[00:54:42]Uh, because we have seen interpreters.

[00:54:45]Uh, when I am talking and then where will the camera be?

[00:54:49]I'm signing and yes, the camera is on me. So, I feel valued.

[00:54:55]And that is the dignity that we want.

[00:54:58]Yeah, see me as Robert.

[00:55:00]No, do not see the interpreter, but see me as Robert. That is what I can share with you in brief.

[00:55:07]Thank you.

[00:55:07]>> Thank you so much, gentlemen, for joining us this morning for bringing even much more awareness. I have to be honest, even my mind has been opened up a little bit even much more and I appreciate that awareness. And I'm I'm hoping that you also feel the same way because inclusion is not just about It's really not lowering standards. Let me say that.

[00:55:27]It's not creating favoritism in any kind of way. It's really about removing barriers so that every Ugandan has the opportunity to participate, to contribute, to thrive, and of course our very thanks to our guests this morning for enlightening us and bringing that awareness for about and bringing understanding about reasonable accommodation and how it's not simply just a policy issue, but also a matter of dignity, of equality, and even human potential. I'm seeing things differently today and I'm hoping that you are doing the same. For myself, Victoria Sekabale, may the Lord bless you, keep you, make his face shine upon you, be gracious to you. Goodbye. God bless.

[00:56:17]>> Thank you, Victoria.

[00:56:20]No.

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