Climate change investing represents a significant business opportunity in Africa, extending beyond traditional renewable energy to encompass sectors like clean cooking solutions, electric mobility, sustainable agriculture, and green manufacturing. These climate-positive businesses can generate equity returns while addressing environmental challenges, with companies like Safi Organics demonstrating how converting agricultural waste into biochar fertilizer can improve yields by over 30% while removing carbon from the atmosphere. The sector requires blended finance approaches due to high upfront costs and uncertain long-term returns, but offers substantial growth potential as African nations seek to integrate climate considerations into their economic development strategies.
Space X IPO boom, Naija GDP let downs, Climate Change InvestingAdded:
Personally, I just I think Elon has been very lucky. He's been very lucky because of Trump. This is someone who before Trump was basically the bot of a lot of investors. That's why they were shorting him. But when you look at Bezos and what Bezos has done, I don't know anybody else in the history of this our generation.
>> The thing with valuations is equity valuations. It could go up, it could go down. So today they're calling this price but in a year it could completely be buffed and it could skyrocket beyond that to really justify the baselines for the numbers to keep >> and AI guys are now using equity IPOs for capex and if you look at the shares outstanding during the com bubble to now we're actually quite low compared to bubble companies aren't listed yet >> exactly until the money for equity right IPO slows down we're not going to see a slowdown in AI >> in my mind the way I see and this is I might be wrong I feel AI could work the way electricity works you know the way electricity powers everything that we do but electricity is not the thing itself that makes those things work it's just what makes sure that they do what they do I feel that businesses and companies in the future will run on AI in the same way electricity just powers things >> this young population story that we have has some sort of negative connotation to it in the sense that we have a young population where population is young but is not able to work. There's a family, a father and a mother, right? And young kids, the father and mother, the only ones working, the kids are not working.
So all the burden relies on the father and mother for for money. So national savings, it's it's harder for mom and dad to save because every penny mom and dad make goes into >> spending on the kids, right? But if the kids are at the age where they can work, they cannot contribute to the household, >> right? Does that make sense what I'm trying to say?
>> Mhm.
>> There's never been a time in Nigeria's history where opportunities outside regular paid employment have been available to young people like it is today.
>> But some would also argue with you that well there's a lot of child labor here which is bad. But that's why there's lot of there a lot of people younger than 17.
Yeah. But they're working.
>> Seriously, honestly globally might not be not acceptable globally. But for these same families you're seeing, they are the ones who are probably failing.
Hello everyone. Welcome to Drinks and Mics brought to you by Nometrics in partnership with Lid Drop, Mandelas, and Swan Water. We do this every Friday 6 p.m. we go live on Nametric TV YouTube channel. And uh, of course, you can watch anytime you like, anywhere, just I mean there's several episodes that you can always go back to as well. It's going to be another exciting episode. We got your feedback last week from the youth edition. We got it. We got it. I was very happy that you guys really gave it up to Tuni. I mean, I always complain. He's the noise maker in the house. So, you guys tell you can hear the laughter.
>> Alan and I, we're gentlemen. We don't like to make too much noise. We're just very calm.
>> Thank you.
>> We take it easy. But Tuni just brings out a lot of stuff out of us, you know.
She wants to make it.
>> Wow.
>> So you guys, and he's the youngest of us, so he's a youth. Like anyway, just kidding.
young man.
>> It was great. We really really enjoyed uh last it was it was fun sitting back and just watching.
>> Yeah, a lot of brilliant guys. My god, it was so impressed >> with the entire delivery. If you haven't seen it, by the way, you want to go watch it. Uh it was just the episode before this one >> and uh we had five, you know, youths and um they weren't lazy at all. were very smart smart guys and teaching us a lot of stuff that we probably yeah they dealt with a lot of topical issues that resonated with every single one of us. Of course we got the gang in the house by now you know already tun in the house and we got Arnold Dublin Green and we've got a female guest today and you know what that means for us in the house. Ah rest cheese man.
So, I'm going to let Kemmy introduce herself as we usually do and then we take it right up.
>> My name is Kamaj. I'm a principal at Africa Climate Ventures. We're focused on starting, scaling, and transforming what we consider to be climate positive businesses on the continent.
>> Oo, nice. Nice. Funny enough, I was having a conversation with someone today about carbon credits. Is that does that fall under what you're doing? So, they're trying to get more So, carbon credits has been historically more oil and gas, guys. Exactly. And now there's a push to get the rest of the other industries to start looking at.
>> Can somebody explain what those carbon credits mean?
>> Another way to ch >> No, no, no, no, no. I I saw a business, there's a Ghanaian business that um I think they're into uh deliveries and just basic logistics, but last mile like bikes and things like that. And they said, oh, they did an announcement that, oh, you can now I think you can cash out or something about, oh, you can now something about the carbon credits from I understand do a better job. So, from my understanding, it's when your business is running. I understand it to explain why.
>> I think in layman terms, just think about it this way.
>> Yeah.
>> Let's use let's use a very simple example. British Airways, they're flying planes and they're emitting all sorts of gas and lots of pollution and there's a company somewhere in Africa or anywhere else in the world that is essentially helping to remove carbon from the atmosphere. Exactly. So cleaning up your mess in that sense and so you're crediting that company and so that's really how it works in terms but of course >> so as you're taking out the car >> in plain terms but there's obviously levels to it. um we have it operating at the bilateral level which is governments to government whether it's you know the Swiss to the Kenyan government but we also have it operating companies to companies on the private level of the >> you know what's very interesting is there's also um the cap the the trading side of it where people trade carbon credits like this company said they they now can issue carbon credits I was like ah >> well issuing carbon isn't that just basically what you're paying we can only issue carbon credits >> if you if you're if you're meeting.
>> So let's let's talk about the economy.
>> The economics of it though. So you're British Airways or you're a um Lafage or whatever and you are into manufacturing and so you're emitting right gas. Uh so you don't have carbon credits do you?
>> No. So what you what you have is essentially you are trying to you're mandated in some ways depending on the sector that you're operating to clean up your mess, right? and clean up your mess means you are paying somebody else for the credits that they've generated from taking the uh the um the CO2 out of the atmosphere. So we have companies that are actively so maybe let me bring it home a bit. Um we are invested in a company that is called Safi Organics and what this company does is essentially converting uh waste agricultural waste in this case they use by gas which is a waste form sugarce convert that into bioshock blend that with some additives and they have what we know as fertilizer >> and that fertilizer is helping to improve yields for farmers by more than 30% and is also selling at less than the price of synthetics and this is happening in East Africa and you're about to see that happen again in Nigeria Right. Um and so that company in the process of doing that that they're obviously cleaning up for the likes of a British Airways taking carbon out of the atmosphere removing and so you know then you can have a company like British Airways related or Microsoft those who are emitting heavily then pay them for the work that they're doing to remove as a product or as a byproduct of >> how do they get to the stage where they get to who do they know who to pay?
there there standard bodies that govern this. Uh you have period.ed Ed you have rainbow there a few certification bodies and that's where the uh uh process about verifying and and ensuring that your methodologies are you know following a particular process is you know comes into the play of it that part the MRV process of it is really really critical in determining whether you get that credit or not but there's a whole body that governs it there lots of middle parties in between that transaction >> so if I may is there is there a relationship with the idea I can't remember there was uh West African country president that talked about planting trees. Is there a relationship?
I think you said if you build something you start to build you plant a tree or something. Is planting a tree in the sense of giving back to the carbon emissions or something helping to improve the ecosystem mangroves and all.
>> Yeah. So is is that a cheaper way for one to to issue carbon credits? So you know when you build a property you plant a tree and then your company >> there's a process there but it's also again with the carbon credits they're different prices some are quite high so we have companies that are operating in the enhanced rock weathering space um and in what I've just talked about bioshar those credits are commanding as high as$1 to $150 per ton of carbon that is remove from the atmosphere we also have those like planting trees which will come much lower cooking you know you clean cooking if it's between bilateral so government to government and the cost market um what you might see is something around maybe 30 upwards right $35 but if you're doing it on the trading market then it's somewhere between four and maybe 15 so there different levels at which this uh this happens and so for planting trees it would fall under the the lower grade of it >> is is there space for sorry thank you for educating us >> is there space and room for um um carbon credit trading in Nigeria area specifically.
>> I think this government market we have a bond market. Is there a space for carbon credit markets?
>> We'll get there. This government is very proclimate and you see them actually trying to do a lot of these things already.
>> Um the education around it is one thing.
Um and you know the fact that just talking about it more for citizens to actually know that these platforms exist is another thing. But the what we're seeing is with the government itself there are different groups that are focused on climate that are already working you know with some of these global certifying agencies to actually develop some of these frameworks but we're not yet seeing that translate into companies uh actually using that yet. So I think we'll get there. We're still very early in the journey. Um but interestingly there's a company called SMAT that has actually built out ESMAT that has built out an MRV platform that um essentially the goal platform >> um it's essentially uh the platform for allowing for measurement and verification of credit um that allows um that would allow or open up his API to other he's doing it for himself right now the company but what they would do essentially is open up that API to allow other companies that feel like they're with whether it's a solar company or related that feel like in the process of their They're also helping to mitigate or avoid or remove carbon from the atmosphere. They will allow them to list through their platform to qualify and >> but right now is an opportunity for an investor to be to have a some sort of investment in any carbon emission or carbon credits of any company right now in Nigeria. So if oil and gas company has um issued carbon credits, can an outside investor now focus on just investing in that? Yes, >> I think we'll see that. We'll see that coming as the markets mature. Okay. Um I would say that we're not there yet, but we're seeing something like this in East Africa already where there's clean cooking companies that are in the process of getting their letters letters of authorization from the government.
And what is that loans on the back of that letter of authorization because it means that if it's coming from you know a government that is quite solid European government they would not default on that and they would honor it and so that's almost a guarantee of some sort almost making it risk-free. So we'll see the market shape out in that.
>> We're going to talk a bit more about it later. Uh we'll talk about energy. Yeah.
Yeah. We're talking about energy and the climate and all that stuff. By the way talking about credit uh you know I want to say big thanks to to you and your husband for this by the way.
>> First guest that has given us what we like to drink, >> right?
>> So, thank you so much. Shout out to him.
>> We have shout.
Yes.
>> So, um uh you don't mind if we drink it, do you?
>> No, no. Please go for it. Have a taste.
Enjoy.
>> Um we'll drink this. Let's >> let's uh let's try this today. Sorry, guys. Uh it's what we do at drinks and mics. All right. So, uh, we're going to talk a bit more about because there's a lot of debate around >> around climate change and, you know, uh, energy security in Nigeria and Africa in general. We'll get to that at some point, but let's, uh, let's start first with, you know, the war. I know I didn't want us to really talk about the Iran war, but something happened today. Um I think there was gist that maybe Iran was Iran state media reported that they were already close to an agreement and then >> um the US said came out and denied it flatly. Um of course oil price dropped below $100 but likely going to go back up. So just curious to know from you from from you guys um are they really going to reach some sort of agreement? Do we always matter?
>> Everything is always a matter of time, but I mean >> Yeah. I say in the long run, we're dead.
>> So I always like that in a matter of time.
>> So I'm just curious, what you pouring into the secret.
>> Yeah. I've noticed that how can you pour you know the insult in pouring rubbish inside.
I apologize please to you and your husband. This I I apologize. All right.
>> You know, he has to replace it. Where I'm from, when you disrespect a drink, you replace it.
>> So, first of all, >> he will replace it.
>> I mean, tell us in the comment se where's our ice, please. I >> I was going I've been trying to take this sit down. Like, please. Where's >> What's going on with the ice?
>> Where's the ice bucket? Let's uh >> Anyway, so let's let's hear from you guys. What do you think? Um wine, red, white, >> white, >> white. All right.
>> Shout out to the guys I met in Mauritius, by the way. Um who are fans of drinks and mics.
>> This will do.
>> It's wine glass.
>> I'm struggling. No, but I think you deserve a better music.
>> I do have a disposable cup.
>> No, we can't know >> for the culture.
No, no, no.
>> I mine, but it's okay.
>> It tastes very different.
>> Oh my god.
>> All right. Uh, while I wait for the ass, let's let's go on. So, are you guys So, are you optimistic that we're going to get a deal >> by end of June? Because I kind of feel like >> Yes. But May is almost over. You think You think it's imminent?
>> I think it's imminent.
>> Yeah. So, I'm I'm I'm I don't think we get a deal. And this is I mean, I'm being very selfish.
>> I'm being very very selfish.
>> So, you want you wanted to continue?
>> Yeah. Because I've now >> after March after my March crazy market prices and everything was going crazy.
You know, I spent um countless weeks trying to understand how to position my portfolio in this in this >> and now you found the formula.
>> Now, I've figured it out, right? I understand that we're in a proper cost of um increased cost of capital macro environments, right? And I see where it's going. I see how it's and and the war is is working in that favor is really pushing in that story.
>> You know, you don't you don't want us to go back to reset so that you >> Yeah. Let you miss out your house and then we can figure out what 2027 has to offer. So you know an has an claims to be a socialist sometimes but is it capitalist it's not just to be honest I almost understand where you're coming from let me just give an example >> um as much as we need peace to rain and we all want it to end and it should because there companies and sorry rather there are countries that are really suffering a farmer in somewhere the US will be fine they'll get fertilizers and some of the you know side effects which are happening from the closing of straight of humots. But what you see is in Africa some of those farmers are not going to be able to afford fertilizers at the prices that we're currently seeing for example.
>> But then it does create opportunity for innovation at the local level. We just talked about converting organic waste into fertilizer and that being better than synthetic. That's now happening on a much larger scale and it's creating real opportunities for some of those companies. So if you are invested in those companies, you're almost selfish to say >> yeah because you've now positioned yourself.
>> Can we wait a little longer? Let's just this is like a disruptive moment.
>> It is a it's a huge for the energy industry. Let me tell you there's opportunities for growth and I think we're seeing that you know with some companies and some kind of products but obviously we want peace to rain because for the greater good >> for the greater good. for the greater good. But but I have noticed that about Arnold. He he he sounds like a socialist until it concerns personal.
>> Do you know that I've never lab myself a socialist capitalist? You guys try to box me.
>> I think sometimes you're trying to sound a gallery and drinks to mind like you know is naturally gravitational always goes back to his past. I don't know why you like that. It's almost like you never know like yeah like you can take the ghetto you can take him out of the ghetto. You can take a get out to give us that vibe like like the people we all know better but >> you are a capitalist to the core.
>> You think so?
>> Yeah. You are like everything you do you live a capitalist life say I went to move my chair that's why told me that he wanted >> I believe in impact and returns at the same time I want to go kayaking I want to start doing that >> he went this way he tried uh he tried jogging work >> I still joing eating work >> now what's next >> I still I still golf. It's just I needed something on a Saturday mornings.
>> You need a rush.
>> Yeah. But I needed something water related as well cuz I'm a I'm a rivers boy you know. So you know the water is go jump. So and and I you know you see the I see the five calorie creek every day right. So at some point you're like h >> let's try it.
>> Let's try it. Yeah. And the closest thing is kayak.
>> All right guys talking about trying something. SpaceX IPO uh imminent um >> time >> valuation between 1.7 to two what is it that uh Mosk said recently in terms of evaluation is looking at >> yeah was it 175 was it 175 >> yeah so some are saying between 175 and 2 trillion >> was 1.25 25 last week >> and then he sort of gone up again >> and then there's a one year lock >> and um I mean company's doing $18 billion >> uh but gap loss $4.94 billion um space X as well doing 4 billion or so in a claims a bit positive but lost $6 billion so I'm just wondering the way the way thought valuation Yeah, wasn't it?
>> No, no, no. This is not fraud like the way we're thought like because everything seems to be like upside down now.
>> This is this is frontier regions. It's it's not it's not like hard, you know, looking at um um revenue. This is frontier because for instance, the the issues like colonize Mars, you know, get us to the moon, those kind of things, >> the upsides are limitless if it works.
if it works right it might not work or but if it works the upsides are li limitless there's there's uh there's tourism there's recolonization there's movement there's you know recycling but I think this is more about the his AI business than it is about his rocket launch business of the valuation is actually come's three businesses right is a starink which is what 10 million users uh about $66 average revenue per user I mean that number has gone down drastically but it's because he's now expanding into Africa and he's in the sticks now, right? And then there's a rocket launch business, but then there's a AI business that's is it connected to Gro Colossus and is trying to buy this business called Cursor um that had what's what shocks me? What's interesting on >> the highest burn right now?
>> Yeah. Capex over Capex is like seven capex for the AI business is seven times >> rocket launch. So like AI is like it's AI is what it cost seven let's say times more to actually use claude than to send to colonize Mars right what's really interesting for me is is it is what's happening with SpaceX >> equity issuance it it it it drives on my narrative of this increase in cost of capital or this mad disconnection between bond markets and and the equity markets and this is what I mean by this right so if you look at when um US government bond yield were 0 something% to 1% let's say post 2009 to about 2020 what companies used to do is if they needed capex they issue debts and then use it for capex or they'll issue debts and then do a share buyback right this is because cost of debt was cheaper than the cost of equity but what you're seeing with open AI what you're seeing rather let's if you look at the CDS which is the credit default swap uh rates of spreads of um the likes of oracle the likes of of soft bank is they've winding massively and you're now seeing that AI guys are not issuing debt anymore. They're IPOing >> because they they they feel that the bond market is punishing or doesn't trust the duration of tech right because with if you look at the way bond is is is formed is the best you can do is you get your money back right at maturity but equity is >> upside in this. So the equity markets is the risk equity markets the equity investors seem to be willing to take a risk on tech say you know what like you said the upside is limitless whatever might be I'm really willing to take that bet and open AI or rather SpaceX and open a IPO is sort of showing that okay these guys now they know that if I want to raise money for capex I'll just issue equity rather than than than issue bond because they know that the bond market knows that this thing is funny that's how I'm seeing this this SpaceX IPO >> so coming side by side open AI or I I don't I I I might be wrong, but Open AI seems to have lost his way a bit. It's like, you know, it was front leader at some point. It's now looking like it's now >> in the middle of everybody and >> Elon seems like he hates Sam Alman. No, he does. And that's why I think he keeps going IPO keeps going keeps going at him. Um, but the the the upside for AI starts to get clearer and clearer with each passing day, you know, especially with the usage of um, so I I don't know if it is the fact that everybody has been raving about Claude for instance now that if you start using Claude, it starts timing you out and says, "Okay, >> yo, what's going on? What's happening?
You have me taking it back.
Guys, let's stay on subject. Let's stay on let's stay on subject. We'll get to let's stay on subject. So, let me get >> um Yeah, on this SpaceX matter.
>> Um >> Okay, go ahead.
>> He wants to raise some I'm hearing he's raising or we read he's wants $80 million or there about >> was it Sam?
>> No. Yeah. $80 billion probably going to be the the largest in um ever. I think the largest would probably Saudi Saudi Saudi Aramco maybe $30 billion >> or thereabouts. So this is $80 billion.
>> Is it going to be successful? Are there like is that money there?
>> It's him.
>> It is.
If there's anybody that can pull it off, >> it's him first, I think. Um and if he does, it will be very interesting because this will probably be the biggest um in the world that we've seen.
But I think also it's it's very interesting because if you're seeing that people are actually willing to fund all of these dollars into the company um and you look at what the underlying is not just AI it's also now back to investors who were very tech software they're moving a little bit back you're seeing a shift back to infrastructure to telecoms you know to defense in some ways and AI at large and so energy too.
So you know when you see when you look at it from that perspective they are looking at it you know sort of it's split across sectors it's not just backing Elon as a person and it's not just investing directly into one company that that company actually spreads across a range of sectors and I think the signaling is good for you know Africa markets as well if it's very successful >> side successful it does tell a good African story down the line too >> because I I think that um um I mean I have no I'm just going to do a tuni and say Trust me, bro. Analysis. Stinking has 10 million subscribers. I can see another 100 million subscribers. And that means it's coming after after MTN >> and uh and and in that sense, but I know I I mean >> how long because I'm trying in my mind I'm saying, okay.
>> Okay. Good solid aligning businesses. Um X X AI should XI fairly okay. Um there is um uh Space X. Okay. Um then Starink.
So is it like a No, in my mind I'm saying is this like a >> can we compare this to like a um to where Amazon probably was several because if your if your val if your valuation is almost 2 trillion let's say 1.5 trillion at the get go >> where where from there >> it's going to be like where your equity valuations and equity valuations are nuts, right? equity valuations are nuts and and um and and these guys know it and that's why they're valuing their business there because they know that okay there's still going to be upside and the market is whether it's $12 trillion or $3 trillion the market is still go for it is the upside but but but my worry >> where's upside here no I'm just saying just in terms of for me demand >> I thought you guys said they're locking this up for for you one year lock up yeah so it's going to be one year lock up >> so what does that mean for It means that if you go in today, >> if you carry out you can sell for a year, you're in.
>> So, but is this so it's never going to trade then it's not going to be liquid >> for one year.
>> For one year. Wow. So, normally 6 months is the max and Elon to why though what's his reason?
>> Um I don't know his reason for doing it.
But again, one thing I will say is for me valuation is an art and a science, right? I think here they're really playing with the art of it because >> fundamentally what is the valuation based on right where we see what he's doing but it's also a bit on the high side and it's a lot of ifs ifs ifs ifs now and we really can hope right but also it's that investors back people not just businesses and business >> if there's anybody you want to see from >> exactly so that's what's happening here he's he's also playing into you know the the profile and credibility that he's built over time showing that I can do I'm the one that can pick things up and flip it around. And I think that's what the game is here. It's almost a bit of a game, right? Um and we don't know where it will be. And the thing with valuations is equity valuations, it could go up, it could go down. So today they're calling this price, but in a year it could completely be bust and it could skyrocket beyond that. You need to really justify the baselines for the numbers to keep going.
Generally with with with markets if you're locked in for a year by month 8 n >> people sure >> but I also find funny so they lock up for the general market for Ellen I thought it was for and a few guys >> okay I don't know >> just check now yeah I don't think it's for the entire market just lock up everybody's money like okay so that's >> for Yeah and and some of the guys that are a couple guys >> yeah so typically the SEC would tell you six months or things like that because you got to invest protection and all that. So I think he then pushed for one year like you know what basically saying that you know there's confidence and talking about >> who you guys compare him with Kangi Vanderville who does he like remind you of >> so he does >> Tony Stark that's the closest that's >> that really yes the closest >> he's not your man >> no no no so it's the arrogance the >> he's in a league of his own.
>> He's in a league of his own. The arrogance cuz the closest in history you want to look at is someone like I actually think No, hold on. I actually think this is just my opinion though. I think Bezos is doing a lot more but it's just not as loud as >> No.
That's the thing, right? So if you flip both both businesses, right, uh Bezos was selling you hard facts.
Look, we've done seven routes. If we open 14 routes, we did Ebita at 14 routes. If we open seven more routes, we will increase EITA by >> That is Elon is telling you, imagine >> it's a dream. if we could do this. Now, that is there's no price. There's no price. There's no price on that.
>> I think that I think personally I just I think Elon has been very lucky. Um I think he's been very lucky. Yeah. Yeah.
>> I think he's been very lucky. He's very lucky. I I I think he's been very lucky because of Trump. I feel like if there was no Trump, >> I don't think Elon would be anywhere. He was he been doing defense contracts before Trump. I know. But my point is >> this is someone who um before Trump was basically the bot of a lot of investors. That's why they were shorting him. They kept shorting him.
And at some point people love Tesla.
>> He was laughing.
>> No. Tesla initially >> Tesla typically missed estimates estimates. and he he had a lot of issues, >> right? And then um he then now Trump era basically catapulted him. So, but when you look at Bzos and what Bzos has done with e-commerce and AWS, it's just I don't know anybody else in the history of this our generation that has impacted the world more than this guy turned to he brought 24-hour delivery. Now, I hear there's 30 minutes delivery that he wants to do now. So you you're talking about different kinds of founders completely of course different now tech founders >> we all need a sponsor in life as Trump was his thank you Jesus no no doubt about it yes everybody no doubt about it no doubt >> so so you're talking about two different kinds of founders um your basos kind of founder is the roll your sleeve up he's he's in the numbers he's in the but those kind of guys tend to grow you arithmetically, right? Uh it's like 1 + one then plus two you can see the growth. So like Amazon you could see the growth, right?
You know, you saw where it started from then you can see Elon is very hands-on like he sits with engineers.
>> No no they all do now.
>> They all I'm saying is mechanics.
>> Okay. Maybe the person that could have been like Elon in the past uh was this uh the Apple guy. What's his name again?
>> Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs. You know, somebody that has the ability to >> to to dream beyond the ordinary and then follow through with it because it's easy to say he had a benefactor.
>> I mean, >> yeah. I think I think it's not fair >> in in life. Many people have benefactors and still didn't do squat with it.
>> The fact that the fact that you take the the benefactors influence and then 10x it is a skill on its own.
>> No, you're missing my point. I'm not in any way trying to uh I mean Elon has been successful since the days of PayPal. So there's no nobody's disc. I'm just saying that the fact that where he is exponentially in terms of whether being the wealthiest man in the world, being the most popular person in the world today and >> everything happened during Trump era.
That's my point.
>> So I don't think that >> I'm not saying he won't still be who he is, but he won't be at this level.
>> Yeah, that that's what I think. I be wrong. Yeah, I feel so >> it's possible element. Yeah. Yeah. time.
He was one of the ones that aligned early with with um you know with Trump.
But anyway, I see you guys coming from this conversation.
>> I see a message on Sunday coming from this conversation on Sunday.
>> May your Trump show up on >> anyway guys let me know what you think.
Trump >> please.
>> So um still on this IPO. Who are you guys going for?
>> Are you guys Are you guys >> Are we buying? Yeah.
>> Yeah.
My chimney was sex.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. 100%.
>> Yeah.
>> This is not even as much as as much as I I really think that it's >> I'm I'm I'm really I'm really really worried that the disconnect between the bond markets and the equity markets.
Like I'm extremely worried that the disconnect is something that we should all be trying to figure out what's going on. Right. Regardless, I still think that um it's a bet on Elon and I think the market sees and for me it's a bet. I'm not necessarily betting on Elon or SpaceX. I'm betting on the demand for the stock, right? Supply and demand.
>> I'm just betting on the possibility that something goes right >> or something goes right >> in all of these projections. If one of the projections goes right, the upsides are astronomical.
>> Okay. the space >> you get everything. So, so look at >> look at um the application of AI for instance.
>> I mean so you start to think about the uses in individual cases. Now we're now talking about automating industries.
We're talking about automating businesses. Now this is not replacing jobs. This is just making sure that end to end all those disconnects are now removed. And it almost feels like in my mind the way I see and this is I might be wrong. I feel AI could work the way electricity works. You know the way electricity powers everything that we do but electricity is not the thing itself that makes those things work. It's just what makes sure that they do what they do. I feel that businesses and companies in the future will run on AI in the same way electricity just powers things. So it will be what connects accounting to HR and connects it to human uh to uh business development and makes everything work as one single entity. So there will almost be no business or no home or no individual that runs without artificial intelligence in their you know ecosystem. Now the fact that everybody in the world will be using it that means you are running this is not operating system >> IBM >> you get IBM >> and so think about the fact that AI systems are billing all of us at company level at family level at individual level that is astronomical across the world so for me the upsides are >> endless >> endless you get so if anything goes right >> anything at all >> the entry point is already high.
>> We we >> So you hope that at least three go right or two?
>> At least two. Yeah.
>> Tesla stock.
>> Yes. Yes.
>> How's it been performing?
>> I I actually wanted to dump at some point especially with the BYD >> um emergence.
>> Um I might >> more of a robotic I don't I don't want to test.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that that was why I kept it. That was why I kept it because they now saw they started shifting away.
Exactly.
>> Every day, every day, um I I believe more and more, you know, incrementally that um I think that we're in an AI bubble. I think >> showing you right this is >> Yeah, I think we're in is evident.
>> It's evident that except so the the use case is clear. I think the use case makes a lot of sense. I agree with Tun's point. It's going to be integral to a lot of what we do, right? But it the cost does not justify it. I mean, I'm reading a lot of reports now. Companies are beginning to say, you're looking at your So, AI AI is meant to improve productivity at some point, reduce your overhead and all that, but people are not seeing that happen.
>> So, I'm going to use an >> because these things are expensive.
>> So, it's not replacing >> humans as much. Yeah. Yeah. Over time.
>> I'm going to use an angle to to >> So, so let me land. So my point is that I'm not saying that >> that we're not going to use but my point is >> the cost will need to come down significantly >> to justify some of the you know >> projections in earning pro projections >> that they all have >> and if that then happens right because you know >> cost would then I mean value would then be impacted because it's probably going to take a long time if they continue this way for them to of their earnest projections and then cost valuation would drop >> and then mind you this is not like Google and Amazon or even Microsoft that where dominance single-handedly dominance in terms of you know the tech space there is claude there's tragic there is these are all powerful guys >> but you know that that's the reason why that's the reason why it's expensive It's that race, >> that race to get there first. Make it >> but let me tell you something. I was looking at this chart and it's in my I'm going to sort of give you another >> I'm going to like So I don't know whe this I'm playing devil's advocate, right? So >> at some point I was trying to compare.com bubble to AI bubble, right?
And I said no AI but I started looking at shares number of shares outstanding during the com bubble to number of shares outstanding now. You actually realize that and this goes back to capex spending. Remember I said earlier that AI guys are now using equity IPOs for capex right so until so if you look at the shares outstanding during the com bubble to now we're actually quite low compared to do bubble companies aren't listed yet >> until exactly until the money for equity right IPO slows down we're not going to see a slowdown in AI >> because they know that they can come and raise money through IPOs >> I agree Right. So that bubble and that bubble and and if you use that chart, I mean it's hard cuz you're projecting a chart. But the fact that we're still quite low in terms of shares outstanding now versus the com bubble means we have a couple of couple more years before that bubble bursts if we're in a bubble >> and before that years those years come through we would have had significant breakthrough. I I I can't tell you I can't tell you what the turnaround >> for what Claude adoption of Claude um specifically has done for businesses.
>> So forget in so the individual use case of >> give me a response >> is one thing but the the um business use for claude has become very astronomical.
So, for instance, if you if you have if you use Claude and you were one of the people that downloaded Claude on your um system, you want to be careful with what you allow it do. You get cuz it's invasive.
>> It could go into documents, rewrite things. Yes, it does.
>> It does. It rewrites code >> if you allow it to.
>> Yeah, you have to give it permission.
>> That is the problem. That it's not Oh, that's not a problem. It's it just blows my mind that it can do that.
>> Do you get >> that it can see an abnormal in your code, >> go in, rewrite it, and like yo, you're welcome.
>> Yeah.
>> Do you get and you didn't have to tell it?
>> How does that So, yeah, it blows your mind. Beyond that just in in simple terms how you know I'm looking at it is >> in the finance space there's work that you typically need analysts to do whether it's research whether it's modeling but now these days >> where you needed 10 people to do something with three people manning AI strongly they can get the same amount of work done you know what would have taken a week is taking a day now so you're seeing productivity from that lens right and over time the more that there's adoption the price will definitely come down per user, right? The average price per user would definitely come down.
One, it affects to your point, you think it would affect valuation. Maybe, maybe not. Um because at the same time, they have a bigger base of customers, right?
Multiplied by whatever revenue it is that they were earning per user. So, I think over time there will be, you know, strong adoption um and they will deepen, you know, their penetration and we'll see that reflect in their numbers. It's still too early.
>> You know, we the com bubble was there.
Sure. Um at at some point we called fintech a bubble too, >> right? Probably still is. But >> yeah, they're still invest a bubble >> is not the the product or the technology or the use. That's not a bubble. A bubble is valuation. Oh, 2021 fintech valuations were something but a lot of those companies saw down rounds if they didn't go underwater.
Exactly.
>> Um and so that was the bubble bursting, right? AI might look like that. It may not be like the com one. We don't know yet. It might be >> it might be bigger because of the if successful for example, you know. So I think we'll wait and see where that goes. So here's a here's a an excerpt of a of a newsletter that I got. Uh I think it was from the information. So he says Uber chief operating officer Andrew Macdonald said the ride hailing company isn't seeing a clear increase in productivity from using AI coding services despite their use by his engineering team. Uh that has prompted executives to discuss how to get a handle on token consumption cost. He said if you're not actually able to draw a line a direct line to how much uh useful features and functionality you're shipping to your users the cost become harder to justify >> it wasn't the only one uh several several of them here as well as something Microsoft cost. There are so there are a lot of articles out there now >> where people are now going to companies and saying okay you know what this one this one I actually found very funny.
>> Um this one was a a AI tool that that Pizza Hut put together uh to help sort of increase provide a bit more data insights and then the staff were just using it to give because they were downstairs using it because it now provide a lot more information about customers and all that and deciding who to serve and who not to serve and then Yeah.
Exactly. I LOVE IT. EXACTLY. SO, SO, so Starbucks. So, you're seeing a lot of that happen and that's why I'm saying >> I don't know. But, um, >> it's what it is. Let's move on, guys.
Um, >> but you we all use AI, don't we? We all use Have you fired anybody yet so far because of AI?
>> No, but increasingly we're thinking about how to actually integrate it. like we're very pro AI in in my firm and we're thinking about how to integrate it into our processes, teach it, you know, to write our IM in the way that we do and of course there needs to be human intervention but um I think it's working out quite well for us and we'll continue to use it but that means like the lowest person in our team is an associate we don't and that associate is already >> sound >> so we don't actually have analyst on >> so no like entry- level >> no not right now >> oh wow so so I mean we've started include for business. Um, nobody's been fired in any way. I don't think >> you see your cost go up then.
>> Uh, well, not we just started it. So, so not yet. But what's what I find interesting is that um we're getting the likes of Robin Hood use AI agents as investment advisor. I don't know if you saw you saw that.
>> And that's a lot of robot advisors now.
>> Yeah. This is like investment advisor actually helping retail investors structure their portfolio, tell them what to buy, what to sell, how to and and it makes me curious to what that does to the asset management industry in terms of >> investment advice. I think we shouldn't forget that AI is not always accurate though.
>> Yeah. Especially people forget that.
>> Yeah. But but I mean listen if you rather than have five portfolio managers you can have one make sure the AI work is >> right and then the the AI is literally managing portfolios of of your other mutual funds.
>> So it's interesting >> I I I think um I always think about AI from the perspective of staff plus one >> so I'll still have my staff members >> increase your cost.
>> I'm I'm I'm happy to because >> revenue goes up.
>> Exactly. I mean as long as it improves productivity.
>> Don't you want isn't the point that >> So how do you measure this though? How do you measure >> margin now? You want margin? So revenue goes up. You fire one person.
>> So I'm not I'm not I'm not keen I'm not so we're not that big. So we're not at the point where firing is now a conversation. Right now we're trying to upskill drastically. In fact we're looking for many roles to be able to hire. Um, but with the small team we have, you've just added AI to make sure that at least um you can at least 2x everybody's productivity to ensure that the gaps are not as obvious as they would normally be.
>> So for me, it's it's it's been fantastic help. In fact, to be honest, I I see where my team members send me AI written script, but I'm glad that we're all using it cuz I would be really pissed with the level of, you know, technology available and you're not saying you get, you know, >> so I had a friend recently and um I mean, he watches doing some mics. I'm sure she'll be like, man, why you out me now? I won't mention your name. but he knows himself and uh so I mean there's this website he's been trying to build which by the way he wants you guys on it I'll talk to you guys about it later and um so we we got some guys to do it for us and those guys were they build us like $17,000 and all that so uh eventually he didn't we didn't go with the guys and then he now sends me oh he's done it he sends it to me I look at it I'm like how much did you pay inventure I said no I did it myself what cuz this guy doesn't even know how to use WhatsApp not talk of nobody understand what >> and then he said he used claw Like he used cloud unlovable like he just went to cloud cloud do this and do this I want this >> he used cloud unlovable to build a I'll show you that website >> he builds a website >> yeah a website >> I've seen told him take it here how to okay where do I hosted AWS this is where you go to he follows the prompt he goes there goes to he has login he has registration he has every damn thing >> I've seen this like my friend in finance literally he's like oh what do you think of this business and he's like I've built a web page Do you have a landing page? I was like, what do you mean? When did you start coding? He said clude overnight.
>> Wow.
>> That's what he said.
>> I said, did we test the security? Said he used CL to test the security.
>> But that's why you can play AI against each other.
>> Yeah. So like to check and I checked it out and it was solid. You guys maybe check it out. It's called meant for me.
So check it out.
>> Meant for me?
>> Yeah.
>> Made for me.
>> Oh wow.
>> Yeah. All the club like a dating app.
>> Well, the mentor for me. That's what it meant. Oh yeah.
Meant for me.
>> Yeah.
>> For me. She's meant for me.
>> I I don't know. That was what I heard. I had >> All right. Talking about minds. Um >> come back to local. I mean, we like to do local. Um >> please don't mix this thing.
>> Yeah. taking that nice.
>> I think you need a new gloss, too.
>> Gloss.
>> No, no, don't worry. Don't worry. I got >> GDP numbers, guys. GDP numbers are 3.89%.
Q1 GTB nominal GDP for the first quarter.
>> Uh, by the way, 3.89% compared to 3.13% same period last year.
>> Uh, it's a 10 year high by the way for a first quarter. uh data wise in terms of nominal GDP 110.8 8 trillion up 17.79% from 94.1 trillion the same period last year. uh the fastest um sector in the economy no surprise is ICT 11% in one quarter shout out MTN and co >> FinT financial services okay >> financial services no I buy in financial services >> I am not fintech I'm not fintech and then crude oil production below Q1 GDP 1.56 right but anyway overall reading of of GDP numbers are you I think >> any are you guys impressed by any >> reforms that has happened?
>> I'm slightly disappointed. I felt at least the very least to coming out at 4.1.
I honestly I don't know why I was expecting that but I just I just felt some of the movement that we've seen in the last couple of you know months especially Q1 >> have to you know Q1 I I just said it's a 10.1 from because it was a 10 that's the previous year >> Q1 2025 >> yeah so yeah so Q1 2025 was 3.1 we wanted 4.1 for That's a tall order.
>> Wow.
>> But what's your rational for expecting 4.1?
>> So look at the economic activity that happened in 3.1 >> and then look at the economic activity that happened 3.8.
>> What's the difference?
>> Economic activity basically 3.1 the year 3.1 happened we know the chaos that was happening all around. We we know that rising cost inflation was biting everything was really major GDP isn't it?
Did we win did we rebase last year?
>> Last year.
>> No, no, no. The GDP shouldn't move significantly >> because the base growth rate.
>> Yes. Shouldn't move significantly in terms So, it shouldn't change. It shouldn't change.
>> Number changes, but the growth doesn't change. Is that what you mean?
>> Inflation is what we changed that had aggressive. So, the GDP shouldn't change that much. We widened in base >> for it. So even the widening of the laws exactly to move up. So I expected I expected us to move to over because again my thinking is we should be doing 7% regularly to be able to even get anywhere close to having decent growth over a long period of time. Um so 4% isn't great.
The 4% I was looking for isn't a great number, but it it for me it felt like growth.
>> Yeah.
>> It felt like, you know, we're moving.
>> SSA brothers are doing six like I know exactly what you mean.
>> So, so I I felt disappointed about it and I feel it's something the government should look at, >> you know.
>> Does anyone know what happened to oil production? I'm I'm surprised cuz it went from 1.6 to 1.5.
>> Yeah. I mean it's has been out there. We haven't we haven't really been ramping up production for some months.
>> We actually Yeah. It's not it's not steady. It's flat.
>> M >> right. It's lower.
>> I don't know. Um I did hear at some point I think I read at some point that there were a lot of um um turnar around whatever going on in some in some what about the person we are paying for pipeline. Um is itation issue? I don't think so. I don't think so. But the point is that I mean despite all the reforms that we've seen in the last two years, are you not worried that we're not growing fast enough? I think for me the maybe firstly the real star here ICT is great contributing 10 or so in terms of increase but the real star is the agriculture >> right it went from almost flat >> to about we haven't really seen that growth in agriculture um in a while and that really shows that a lot is happening at that level from the crop production level and you would imagine that this is trickling down to households farmers low-inccome communities um but when you look at what's happening on the streets you'll see that it's not really reflective as well, >> right? Um because people are still very hungry. Um >> and you would also see that there is yes, there's an increase in agriculture, but there's a there's an issue when you think about the transportation of goods that's posth harvest losses are still quite high and still allowing the cost of food to be high. So food inflation is even higher than you know inflation right now. And so you know from that lens for me agriculture was very interesting to see that growth. But I'm just wondering why exactly and I think that's what the government should be looking at. Why is it not trickling down to the base of the pyramid, you know, in terms of how people are actually living on a day-to-day level?
>> But what do you think happens to agric fertilizer ura ura fertilizer prices through the roof because of the war?
>> Do you think that affects that's going to Q2? Cuz now yeah, Q2 will feel Q2 should fill the war now, right? I'm very curious about how that pans out because I know fertilizer shortage was a big thing for farmers especially you know small holder farmers in and where there's no clear subsidy clear government subsidy programs that are actually very proactive i.e. this is happening. Send this down to farmers in these regions. I'm very I'm a bit worried about what yields might look like. But again, on the other hand, like I said, there is opportunities for companies that are now thinking about less synthetic fib types of fertilizers um that are helping to improve yields more. So, I'm excited to see what the chaos is going to um lead to in terms of innovation at that level of imputes for farmers. We're seeing lots of developments with microbes, so microbes that are helping to again improve yields and just enhance the quality of the soils. Lots of work is ongoing there even outside of West Africa and a lot of this technology would be transferred over time. So there is something going on there. But on the other hand, um, of course I'm worried about what yields can look like or will look like. Um, and we're yet to see that data, but I'm curious about that too.
>> Okay. So, so again let me let me um Q the previous 3.1 that data was Dango refinery available at that time >> just just thinking through >> was it working at the time?
>> Yeah, that's the the 3.1 of last year.
>> Yeah. Well, not not at the not at this full production level.
>> Um so I'm I'm I'm trying to >> Superman.
>> No, it's not it's not that it's not that. So again just because I I have worked in and around this institution I'm I'm I'm I can see production levels economic activity so just simple economic activity dagot refinery we have um um the farmer industry it has ramped up capacity a lot more because of gaps that has been left because of um big farmer that agriculture has really taken a turn in the last maybe 18 to 24 months. We've also seen um FMCG FMCG has really ramped up production in in also that time. So I'm I'm curious to understand why that there's so much of a gap that we couldn't have done a whole basis point. I I think we should have been able to do it. I don't know what the disconnect was. Um and this is of course not asking government to to to to be controlling NBS numbers but I think it is an inquiry for the government to say okay if there was this much economic activity at this particular time and we couldn't go to 4 uh 4%. What's the real hope of getting to seven or 8%.
get because >> the I don't think we would see the movement we saw in that last 18 months happen you what I mean is what the the growth in econ economic activity that happened in the last 18 months I don't think we're going to see that level of economic activity growth >> the jump >> again >> that jump I don't think we're going to see it in the next 3 years >> we will see continuous growth but it'll be inching upwards >> it was a had a big jump. Yeah. Yeah.
>> It was a big jump. So if we couldn't do one basis point with all of that >> then there's a problem more.
>> So the funny thing is that >> Yeah. So I can I mean the way our GDP is structured um I think there are like five or six key sectors that determine whether things move.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And uh there are there are crop production um trade um real estate um I think there's um um ICT which is the the the technology sector as well I think there's construction uh so if those sectors and financial services is just somewhere hanging in there so these are the sectors that are like 60% of the about GDP composition so if they're not moving >> if they're not growing at above 4%.
>> Then you're likely not going to see sort of >> so telco was a steady growth.
>> So telco was 10% but it's a it's it's it's not it's small. I think it's about steady GDP of the entire GDP composition. So when you look at the likes of trade, crop production, livestock, uh real estate, if they are not growing >> uh at you know some kind of high single digit Yeah. then it's just going to drag the entire sector. So that's where and I think we're celebrating agriculture at 3 3 something% of there about exactly and that's like 20 but it contributes significantly to >> but it was 1% or so before >> GDP which is the which is the problem and that takes me back to that discussion we had some time ago where we said that >> if if you look at the if it's the telos that are growing fast so uh is this symptomatic of the sort of suffering that the consumers are going through because consumers look at our GDP definition, you know, government um investors plus investment plus consumers plus exports. Investors are doing well, government is doing well, but consumers are consumers are still suffering.
>> Yeah.
>> Taco growth is is even with the times >> we're in a we're in an era where people cannot do without data.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> They absolutely cannot do without data.
Everybody and and their mothers are on the internet doing one thing or the other.
>> Yes. But does that aid productivity though?
>> No, it might not. But what I'm saying is that in terms of the growth of the Telos, it's inevitable. Yeah, >> there's a I feel that they're experiencing and enjoying the recalibration of people's attention at this particular time where people have recalibrated from movies you know indoors films to now watching shorts move content and you know creating it themselves you know pushing out things.
So that that recalibration of the of attention focus from people is favoring the Telos at this particular time in terms of data usage and all of that. I think it would it will cap out at some point but the growth. No, what I mean by cap out is that the growth is now like it's almost like a is we found a new sector.
>> Think about it. My younger sisters are 16. They've probably only gone into a bank once for example on their phone. So that's changing completely changing. So that's my point.
>> I think your point around consumers suffering and I also hear you there and and this is where we need to think about I guess Nigeria government at large but you know how we're developing all of the contributors to GDP because ICT growth is nice but they're not the largest employer of labor. Right. Exactly. And so it really trickles down to some of those essential business sectors. How are they you know manufacturing infrastructure where there's large employment of people giving people improved livelihoods creating jobs creating employment and all of that I think that's what really trickles down that allows the consumers start benefiting from what investors are benefiting from with MTN's growth for example right so that's the part the government really needs to figure out how do we create more opportunities in these other sectors that contribute significantly to the GDP that are not growing as fast as the ICT sector Yeah, >> I also think that I mean it's it's also this way because uh the likes of MTN, Global and a lot of all these um consumerf facing companies sell things that are within the price point of a lot of consumers and so >> shouldn't they should I'm not saying they shouldn't that's their business model but >> I'm saying that it's fault no that it's not your fault. Yeah, I'm saying that. Yeah. So, I'm just trying to explain >> why it's happening this way, right? So, to your point, maybe, you know, policy wise, we're not seeing um a lot of work from government in terms of getting other sectors of the economy that tend to drive jobs >> or, you know, push GDP growth rate to move. But but that's also because uh those sectors now price things their their products uh beyond the price point of a lot of Nigerians. So it's difficult for them to grow at this sort of you know pace that the likes of MTN that are cuz for example um a a 1,000 naira data or 1,500 naira data from MTN >> uh 5 years ago probably lasts better than than today. Oh yeah.
>> Yeah. So, but the consumers still see it as 15 as 200 data. You can So, you're probably spending more, but you're probably less in terms of >> in terms of Yeah. Yeah. So, you're just stopping up. So, it's almost like a you know, adrenaline or whatever like something that's very addictive.
>> Okay. Yeah. But, um but that's it. But then are you then you know if you look at the entire value chain of production value chain of what they do >> the question is does that really engineer the kind of growth that you're looking for?
>> So I just compared to say maybe agriculture or maybe things like I mean it's just me.
>> Yeah. and and and I've always been a and I guess we've always been massive conduits for manufacturing, right?
Because I think that's something that it's a trick that I think we're missing.
>> But that government policy kills it. So there's nothing >> Exactly. That trick comes from government policy comes from allow credits favorable credit environment because these guys manufacturing can be capital heavy, >> right? So then that conversation manufacturing goes into credits and how we >> credit land ownership taxes taxes.
um infrastructure.
>> But you see this is also where climate becomes an interesting wave because when >> bringing in carbon credits carbon credits that's one element but when people think about climate they think about it as one vertical or they think energy.
>> It's actually very quickly becoming the operating system for manufacturing.
Think about green manufacturing. Right?
Look at a manufacturing company for example. Just take anyone. what is the largest contributor to their opex right the operating expenses diesel cost right whether they're combining it with solar whether they're on the grid whether it's you know CNG that is supporting it's still energy that is that that is usually the largest cost and so that's where solar is um climate is coming in for example lots of companies are going green they're thinking about beyond solar right beyond the usuals that we're hearing about we're familiar with how can I convert some of my waste to energy >> you see people are now there's a company called Sultry. They've made investments in a biodigtor and that's essentially helping to convert their waste to energy and powering some parts of their factory. So that level of innovation you start seeing climate is not just one vertical right this is when you think about it as manufacturing and it's cutting across right we talked about it on agria and everything but >> and also I think it creates an opportunity when you think about Nigeria at large and even Africa let's take Africa >> we are when we think of our demographics were the most favored >> when you think about the fact that we're coming from >> yes very low installed legacy base it's not like >> a whole factory in Germany trying to reach you know we could start a fresh >> we are starting we're just building a lot of our sectors we have the opportunity to integrate a lot of what is happening in the climate space in terms of innovation into our daily operations to allow us to operate efficiently and where your business qualifies you're able to unlock carbon credit which is hard ethics coming straight to your P&L whether it's helping to subsidize a product or improve your margins >> if you qualify for it you qualify for it It's the way that we need to start thinking about manufacturing and just some of the operations that happening there. How do we help some of these companies to, you know, sort of hedge the the the earnings that they're making and also to control their cost on the energy front by integrating climate into their businesses. But you know, I started um I'm trying to connect this this right because you talk about our young population, but I'm I'm starting to re wonder whether our young population this young population growth r sorry this young population story that we have has some sort of negative connotation to it in the sense that we have a young population where population is young but is not able to work right.
So in terms of um I'll give an example um there's a family a father and a mother right and young kids the father and mother are the only ones working the kids are not working so all the burden relies on the father and mother for for money so national savings so to it's it's harder for mom and dad to save because every penny mom and dad make goes into >> spending on the kids right but if the kids are at the age where they can work, they cannot contribute to the household.
>> Right? Does that make sense what I'm trying to say?
>> Right? So, I feel like I'm I'm starting to wonder whether our young population in a sense is is is a burden >> to be careful what you're saying.
>> I'm trying I'm trying to word it properly just cuz I'm not I'm just thinking of it in that sense in terms of how that affects our national savings for example. Maybe that affects >> No, no, no, no. I I think I get a point.
So, I'm I'm I'm I've been trying not to say this, but I think the NBS isn't doing a great job capturing economic activity in Nigeria.
>> I don't think it's not I don't there's nothing like you're afraid of people.
We've it's >> Yeah, I think we all we've said it several times. Yeah. Um >> they did when they rebased last year, >> but for example, uh If you look at if you look at the size of real estate, size of construction industry, you think it probably is not representative of of the larger economy. Uh there are debates here and there about that. That's for sure.
>> But Alo's point is that your point essentially is because you have a we have a largely youthful populations average age 17. Yeah.
>> So for that reason and because a lot of them are not working not being able to create good jobs for them >> and some are also below the working age population.
>> So your point is that also creates a burden >> on you know on the rest. So that that can affect national income as well because the ability to earn is less. So that's that's >> the reason why I I was going somewhere.
I don't think so.
>> You don't think so?
>> I don't think so. There's never been a time in Nigeria's history where opportunities for opportunities outside regular paid employment have been available to young people like it is today.
>> What what opportunities available to 17y old?
>> No, you're missing the point.
He's talking about he's talking about if if the average age >> of your economy is 17 >> then that means you have a lot more people less than 17 years >> I guess >> right >> at least if not a lot more most of them are less than less than 17 and these are people that can't work >> so it's more of a bug than if they work they're not going to work so the only thing is that for future yes they are for consuming >> they're going so you're probably always going to be consumption economy. So his point is that that also affects national saving.
>> Exactly. I never thought of it that way, but sex to consumer in that sense, right? Because we're just >> because Yeah. because nobody's earning >> right enough to spend.
>> Yeah. But some would also argue with you that well there's a lot of child labor here which is bad. But that's why there's lot of there a lot of people younger than 17.
Yeah. But they're working. But serious honestly globally it might not be it might not acceptable globally but >> for these same families you're seeing they are the ones who are probably offending >> I'm allowed to say >> so so for so so so no no wait I'm going back to the GDP let's go back to the GP numbers I'm linking this to GDP >> yes let's go back to the GDP I don't know much about >> the the number of children the number of children the families that have larger number of children >> this is not politically correct But they more likely to engage their children in child labor than the families with the smaller number of children.
>> Yes.
>> Right. So those children are probably running the shop, you know, going out to do they number of the children are just the income bucket. Income bucket. So the >> even if it's two people, but you guys are within the same less than a dollar.
>> Well, so that is still that is still the labor. Now if those children did not exist you would you they would hire right >> if they can afford >> they most of the time they they need to they need to hire those people >> don't believe this but I need to look away my eyes shall not see see no evil sorry >> see no evil >> sorry >> and and and you know the thing is this uh you know so part of the things I was I was I think I was even looking at recently was was even just the standardization or the modern ization of um businesses these days.
>> Yeah.
>> Um so you have your kid. So you you've seen this on social media. You've probably seen it a few times. You just scroll past it. Um a 15year-old who now helps the dad run the shop in wherever, maybe uh in on child something. She's now bringing the dad's shop onto social media and telling people, "Oh, come and patronize my dad's shop, you know, via this this this that." Now, this is something the dad staff would have done if the dad had but the dad now has her, right? Or him as as the child. Now, this person is working for the organization, if you can call an organization, but this is part of now the income mechanism of the company or or the household as it is. because it's a it's a mom and pop shop. I believe that those lowincome families keep together >> and they've built an economic ecosystem around themselves with the number of children they have.
>> I don't think it is a burden. I think your point what you're trying to say is that >> what we are trying to say I almost want to say is both of you I started this rabbit hole so I need to >> okay so so quickly so right so what basically I say right but the point is that because that bottom layer that's 17 and low >> their income is so smallm Mhm.
>> Naturally, their income is small, >> it would always drag down national income. I don't understand what I mean because so small. So you're not going to pay a in fact most of these 14y olds, 13 year olds that hawk don't get paid.
Okay. So you don't get paid.
So my my thinking was even slightly different. So wait, how does this now affect GDP?
Yes. Now because GDPs GDPs is plus government plus consumption and all that but your stats guy now you know.
>> Yeah. So it's all income now. So they're not so for me betting on Nigerian GDP is betting on that average age going up to like 20.
>> No no no wait wait wait. You are not talking about you're not talking about you're not talking about the components of the GDP. You're talking about the quality of the you're talking about the quality of the income per person. I am saying the aggregate income of Nigeria.
>> Mhm.
>> As an economy and the aggre aggregate economic activity of Nigeria as an economy was far better in Q1 than it was 12 months before Q1. Right.
>> So we've gone past that argument. We want to agree. We didn't do well in Q1.
>> So I let me bring us Where I was going is if we look at India, they've done something right in that they've created something like a knowledge economy there, >> right? China has done something right with industries and they've, you know, they're killing it >> on a global scale. I was saying that Africa with our untapped natural resources, our young population, our unique advantages, our large biomass and everything actually positions us to create what can be a globally competitive advantage for Africa. and climate is the sector that is positioned to help to unlock that. So that was the point that I very I think is the thing is with what she's with what she's saying right the opportunities are there but maybe but the children in those ages today what you the data you're capturing today that child is also growing >> and the child is the child is bettered to understand your the concepts of climate change than her dad is >> is in the village >> depends >> or in the local local areas.
>> You'll be surprised.
>> Those are the ones that have seen their yields go down over time. Something is going wrong.
>> Is climate change real? Okay, that's enough of the conversation.
>> Wow. Your guy doesn't Trump doesn't think it's real.
>> We're segregation.
So what then?
Where I mean where does the growth come from? Can we can we can can I mean can we survive not that we're dead but survive >> on 3.8 >> 4% 4% GDP grow like would you say that this reforms these reforms are ah man these reforms like can we still beat our chest with these reforms if it's delivering growth? I'm saying no. I'm saying I think honestly we did better than 3.8.
>> Bro, that's your that's your opinion. I don't need your opinion.
>> One thing I'll say is we came from a very low position, right? No base of what >> in terms of economic activities in terms of our macros we've been focused on stabilization over the last few uh years now and we're starting to see the result of that stabilization whether it's from the unification of currency um and related. I think the next phase will be I think the next sorry >> apart from the unification of the currency or stabilizer in the currency what else >> why you trying to apart from that what else >> it's a major thing because >> hold on now apart from the fact that we >> verified this currently two years ago so it's a threeear story already to what elseization of a mon monetary policy rate committee that seem to follow the way of the economics that we know and that's I think that's >> so I'm saying apart from the monetary policy >> next phase the next phase which we are lagging on and should have kickstarted is what is going to drive growth right that's where the that's what I'm saying >> and so we need to get well but I think that's where government needs to get their head in because in the end of it individuals private you know investors can do what they're doing by investing in our friends um but government policy really affect what's happening again at that level. You can have something really good going in a fintech business today and a policy comes out tomorrow and wipes out the existence of that business.
>> Is it possible for for for a country to grow based on private and company um innovation and while the government is just dillydallying >> around the the the private sector actually pulls the act together and then just pushes >> fiscal can't figure itself out.
>> Yes. But there catalytic group South Korea.
>> Oh yeah. How South Korea was all all private >> South Korea. I mean >> at some point the private guys will wonder why exactly why are we doing all this for the government to come and again for us to grow fast. The seven sectors need to grow. Trade, >> crop production, real estate, telecoms, livestock. Five of them alone make up more than half >> about 60% of our GDP.
>> Yeah.
>> So if these guys are not growing >> double digit so again trade >> crop production real estate >> telecoms livestock the only sector that is hitting double digits is telecoms and telecom is like 7% of GDP contribution 7%.
>> Between trade crop production and real estate is 50%. Why did why did financial services go down in that?
>> No. No. This has been this is from time in terms of our composition. You now have the next five construction at 4%.
Financial instit financial um services at 3% crude at 3% food and beverage at 3% public admin at 3%. That's our that's the GDP.
>> So if you if you don't understand this composition then you would understand why we're growing at three or four 4%.
So you're never going to see >> grows beyond 5%.
>> If you don't grow trade, crop production, real estate, telecoms, and livestock and livestock and crop production is 20%. So trade and livestock and agro needs to grow >> which is why I said so that needs to grow sit down with MBS because the truth about it is that if I mean I'm trying not to say too many things but honestly if you you measure an informal economy by formal measures.
It's like asking um a fish to do what a dog does. But that trade is 20%. Trade is I mean is that what >> trade trade is is that is that local trade or international trade? Trade.
Trade in general. Trade in general.
>> That's what we do mostly.
>> This >> that's arguing with NBS.
>> International trade is export now. This is not export. This is trade. Trade.
>> I mean NBS are people. So I'm surprised you don't believe trade.
>> I believe NBS. NBS.
>> And that's why we had a contraction. It was because we had that was when they closed the borders.
>> Yeah.
>> That's when we had a contraction. So whenever there's a contraction in trade automatically Nigeria contract.
>> Are you saying that we sold less products or we didn't double the amount of products that we're volumes are not moving in price?
>> Volumes are moving.
>> Volumes are not moving.
>> Margins are lower but volumes are GDP.
GDP is productivities. Volumes matter for GDP.
>> We have we have rights.
>> How do you know where you measure?
UNMBBS you have >> we have all the reports of companies at least I came before >> they are not moving volumes I we track companies for a living atometric so we see prices go up but we're not seeing volumes are moving but single digit >> I think just thinking about it practically now a lot of people are giving up things that they naturally would buy or you know have access to because the prices have tripled >> and GDP is productivity so that's the thing so yes you're seeing revenues go up a lot but that's price >> adjustment >> because of inflation so two companies Like let's just even just statistically two companies Dangote uh refinery and >> Dangut is not trade.
>> It's not refining.
>> It's refining refining.
>> He doesn't sell it.
>> It's refining. No, that's not Everybody sells here now. But trade is different.
>> Everybody sells.
>> I think it's this thing you bought in your whiskey like >> is healthcare.
>> Mhm.
>> Healthare.
>> Is that So you said trade. No.
>> No. No. trade is not this one.
>> We're talking about volumes. No, I said let's go back to the volumes of the trade from growing.
>> See, we're saying company results.
Volume of trade.
>> Mhm.
>> From those companies. I'm calling out companies that trade cuz we said you said trade is local international. I agree with you. I'm saying companies that I know that have increased sales.
Dangote maybe he's not the one selling it himself but trade from that refinery has increased significantly right >> you look at no no if you look at sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry button sorry button if you go and look at dang refinery data particularly with fuel >> volumes have even dropped >> oh really >> our daily average volume >> between this last one yes now wait now what he's done he's just replaced what existed >> before we used to import >> petroleum products 40 million barrel 40 million lit a day or whatever >> let's just replace it and it's even lower check GPT I mean you can do that check let's not now GDP importation you know it is import minus export now so this one it's local production it's not import management >> that's what I'm saying so this is production numbers it's production numbers you will see under refining in People are saying we bought it now.
>> Yeah.
>> This stuff. But the point is that the production So we're not cons you're missing the point. We're not consuming more petrol today than we were last year. That's the point.
>> Yeah.
>> And matters. Yes. Matters.
>> You're not producing. You're not consuming more. Price might be higher, but you're not consuming more.
>> That's it. And then people are moving into renewables. So let's move into some more interesting subject. Renewables.
Climate change. American party climate change.
>> Yeah, we have missers here who don't believe in climate change at all. They don't seem to be >> so I don't know. So I I don't know. I don't know what I have no idea. I have no idea. I believe so. I do.
>> Why are we going too far? Your rainy season.
>> Yeah, but it hasn't always been the same.
>> No.
>> Oh, I just assume Lagos is sinking cuz the flood is getting higher and higher.
>> Think about several years ago though, 30 or 40 years ago. I remember seeing it I mean 30 years ago so it's not like I'm that old 30 years ago so I remember seeing the news >> know those of those days that Lagos is going to sink in >> by the year 2000 is sinking sink >> because of overflow and you know I think those I don't know but there's I I saw something a few years ago a list of uh cities that were sinking >> and Lagos is there where sinking >> but because I'm feeling what would have >> I don't know now but apparently we're not doing anything about >> who who the reason I ask you is this season for example but even Hamatan polar ice caps melting is that what >> I love I love I love that I saw an article because you know anybody can write an article >> oh sorry >> sorry let's talk climate change >> climate change climate change >> what's the business like in Nigeria today >> um business there.
>> There is there is a business there. I think there are opportunities that's really because it's quite nent when we think about climate historically is always been solar solar you know when people think about renewable energy and what they think is uh climate change but >> um I'm starting to see that it's much bigger than that right and it's cutting across a range of sectors. So of course when we look at immobility um and maybe not not just random sectors but more like essential businesses, essential goods and services, we're seeing it cut across those sectors.
Immobility, we're seeing it happen with the electric. Okay.
>> Yeah. When you think of mobilities, the two wheelers, the three-wheers, you're starting to see a shift, right? Even in the market, Lagos State has some EVs on the road in terms of buses, FMCGs. Some of them are some of them are testing them out in terms of um the the holage and logistics part of their businesses, the people who fulfill um for them. You know, they're starting to test out some of these electric uh uh trucks, right?
Um we're also seeing that Nigeria particularly is in a transitionary phase, right? So, what that means is we're not automatically going to go from diesel to electric >> immediately. That's where you're seeing CNG trucks in the on the road because, you know, it's gas that you have. you're the seventh largest producer, you might as well use it while we figure out the infrastructure to support, you know, what we're seeing on the electric front.
So, that's what's happening on the immobility side and I think that will continue to grow. Um, the challenge there is there are lots of two wheelers in the market. Um, and >> two wheelers like no well two wheelers that are electric two wheelers, but there are lots of companies that are now doing those like buying from China, branding and deploying it onto the roads. And so you're seeing a shift to people trying to create the infrastructure for those two wheelers, right? The electric two wheelers in terms of um the charging uh stations that >> replacing batteries and things like that.
>> And then I guess innovation is coming from the uh people who have the ability for their batteries to either you know you can do a swap or they're becoming very creative about how they're going about it. Um, I think there might be interesting, you know, pockets of, I would say, opportunities to invest in those types of businesses, but for me, where I personally see the market going is in terms of the trucks. Um, I do um because I think that that's a no-brainer for lots of businesses. We're talking >> in terms of price, cost. Yeah. There's business that need to distribute their products.
>> Exactly. EV trucks.
>> Yeah. So there even businesses that you know when you think about um companies that essentially just have these assets under them and what they do is fulfillment logistics companies right a lot of them are moving into testing out those trucks. I think that there's a there's going to be an opportunity for that to really scale in the coming months. And we saw Dangote bought what 4,000 CN trucks, >> but then Dangote will probably soon buy 4,000 EV trucks and then the game. No, I'm saying soon. And then suddenly the market moves very quickly.
>> His his personal car seems to be EV hybrid.
>> Oh, is it? I don't know. But what I'm saying here is he's a good signal for the market because when we saw that move, we saw lots of companies now getting comfortable around moving to TNG trucks. Yes. And using that to test out um their operations and you know, I think we'll see that shift to EV too once he makes the move. So that's the first sector. The second will be agriculture and so right. Lots of opportunities happening there. We've talked a bit about fertilizer, but also I think even on the tech side, um we're starting to see just people understand they're reading weather and understanding it and able to use that technology through um USSD to reach low-inccome farmers and advise them water today, plants tomorrow, you know, harvest uh in next week, things like that um to help to improve their yields and to plan. Um on the infrastructure of agriculture as well, we're seeing, you know, coal storage uh systems as well.
That's really growing. Um there's lots of opportunities there because again one thing we're seeing here in this part of the world is very very I think 60% is the number 60 to 70% of what we harvest is lost before they can even figure out where they're going to store it. Has the farmer going to do that? So there's investment going into that space that we expect you know would be able to >> really catalyze growth. All of that comes under what we consider to be climate businesses. is now even moving to the energy side. Solar is another overflogged sector, but the opportunity is endless. There's still a very huge energy um access gap. The deficit is is very ridiculous and I think it's biggest um in Africa, right? Um and so that gap needs to be closed one way or the other.
But you know just from an investment perspective because there's a lot of capital going into the space and there's also a lot of providers and there's lots of middle middlemen just buying from China branding instead.
>> You're not really sure what you're buying on top of your house. Everyone's selling something that looks like a lithium battery and you know we feel I personally feel like it's starting to feel like a race to the bottom like the returns there the returns there may look like debt you know debt-like returns rather than the equity upside because what's the end game >> um with that >> and you know some of the bigger ones who started early to haven't also helped to tell a good story but maybe the CNI uh part of it um >> more focused on you know um businesses and SMMES and you know installing solar for those types of companies might actually be where the opportunity lies as opposed to like the mini grids in the village. But again we need to fill the gap. So what you will see is you know with the climate space the kind of capital that you know the the sector is commanding and needs to attract when you think about building the capital stack of a business. Um it's more than equity funding because equity loan may be too expensive. debt will not be appropriate because some of those businesses may not look bankable today.
>> Um and so that's where the idea of blended finance is really coming up.
Yeah. Because it's a sector that because it's growing, you don't know what the externalities are going to look like in 5 years. To your point on Elon, it can be limitless or >> it can be zero.
>> Somebody needs to come in whether it's um >> at the first loss level to basically tell a commercial investor that I guarantee your money 1x before I get my money back. um or you know some kind of guarantee to just give comfort to the kind of project >> we have some of those on the market right >> we do we do um there number of them the NSI is playing a role in this but also I think the development bank of Nigeria um infa credit with the guarantees you know all of them are starting to take very strong climate positions and supporting the work that equity investors are are doing in the space um and I think that also when we think about sectors broadly um there is an opportunity when we think of the future of foods Um it's it will be opportunistic but it's what we call alternative proteins. Um so >> not livestock, right? So things like >> it it tastes like beef >> insects like black soldier flies >> for >> not to eat in some cases but this one makes a use case for feed stock >> for poultry and all of that. So yeah there's I mean I like my >> there's lot I know >> I know but I actually saw there's this company in Ghana I don't remember their name now. Um, you know these worms, those wood worms that they eat in maybe you're part of Nigeria.
>> I know doesn't know about those big >> those things. Apparently, they're grinding it and they're using it to like make biscuits, bars, you know, just different kinds of attractive. So, >> what about climate businesses?
>> They would fall under the bucket. So, I when people think climate, they need to just think broadly, >> right?
>> Let me ask a question. Right. So, >> um I I I tend to always see opportunities with their problems. They tend to wait a minute. So we had power problem and then solar. So everybody knows solar. So what is the problem that climate businesses are looking to >> fix? They want to ensure that you have somewhere to live in our >> children.
Now it sounds like that until again >> people are living in inside water ghetto with mosquitoes. They're leaving. It sounds like it's until one day they actually submerge like >> when that day come that's what they always say. So >> beyond that though what then like what else do so beyond that what else? So so does it solve a food problem? Does it solve a clothing problem like you know does this change from climate as well secularity plays a big role right so when you think of secularity as how everything connect is interconnected howity for example I like to give examples so that you can relate to it. There's a company um called Tut.
I saw them I think about a month ago pitching um on a stage. What they're doing is you know all those denims that people wear like think about your jeans when you throw it away. What what happens to it?
>> Mostly it can never deteriorate. It's just going to be stuck in one sand and start to form a heap and you know lots of pollution and all of that.
>> Um and so they're taking denims. They don't get to of course that level but they're taking used denims and recycling them into bags, notepads and people are buying >> from London to Nigeria people are buying. So that level of being able to recycle. We talked about the company that is using um rice uh rice husk and bagas you know to essentially convert that into fertilizer and you know sell that. All of that scalable products products that are mass mass like you know >> it's fertilizer >> kind of stuff fertilizer mass >> it is from an perspective do you know how much fertilizer we're talking about agriculture how do we grow agriculture >> let me when was the last time you fertilizer >> sorry >> when was the last time you fertilizer >> so let's not go >> fact nozzer before no >> fertilizer fertilizer is fertilizer is is is an implied cost into every food you buy.
>> Yeah. So that's my point. My point is that lighters are bought by by farmers.
>> Yes. So that's what I'm talking about.
>> So think of clean cooking, right? So falls under the >> um essentially you're displacing charcoal by thinking about innovative solutions to use um clean stuffs, right?
So whether it's ethanol of some sort which is an offroduct of sugar cane food or you're um essentially using there's a company that uses again how you going to cook with that >> sugar cane waste and converting that and being able to gasify it.
>> Oh wow.
>> No they're cooking I'm saying that are gas cookers that stoves their stoves that are beingated into homes.
>> We I bought a a a gas in your house 20k or so today.
>> Use a gas. No those You wait.
>> You went to buy it.
>> No, >> it doesn't matter who went to buy it, but today >> I know that bought the cylinder of gas at 20k probably went to buy that used to be like 7K before.
>> You're not the target customer for that because a lot of these products are targeting like rural market >> like really really deep >> and they actually buy these things.
>> They are buying it in Nigeria, a company called Hinata Energy called >> Hinata Energy. They're distributing stuff. They're targeting students, university that need to cook because they cannot. Kerosine is out of it. When as you even see kerosene in the market, right? Um gas is very expensive. But these other methodologies and and um >> and people are buying these things. I want to know.
>> Are you guys what are you guys cooking with any of these alternatives to gas and I really want to know and he but people are I want to say that is there a difference? Does it burn slower? Um >> does it does the rice come out smoky and it could come in a good moment >> and I think every day we're seeing innovation in that space. What we've seen now is that you know um for example ethanol blended with you know um actually using turning um waste into pallets is helping to burn even faster than just using ethanol. So even over time the companies that are operating in are steadily innovating and we're talking about companies that have reached 2 million homes 300,000 homes depending on where they're operating.
>> 2 million homes that's a lot.
>> Yes. Coco reached 2 million homes before things um went south for the company. Um and so I don't know if you >> why did it go south? What's the economics behind that then? So their model was particularly different um and wouldn't say too much but essentially with the Koko model it was much uh dependent on carbon credits >> right uh what they were using the carbon credits to subsidize the stores for the low-inccome households >> using carbon credits as collateral to get liquidity >> um in a sense >> in aense um and so the the moment >> so they'll sell the carbon credits and because of that income to businesses like >> like British like Yeah, exactly.
Particular model for the clean cooking um companies. The Corsia market is particular which is the airlines.
They're particularly interested in buying those types of credits. Yeah.
Those types of credits. And so those will typically be the the target market beyond some of those that operates in the voluntary space. Um their model essentially did not hold water because um their letter of authorization was not honored. Um and so that meant that you know essentially everything went boss because the model was dependent on um stoves right for the clean cooking business. But you're seeing models improve on the back of that where as a standalone they're selling their pallets as fuel.
>> It's actually fuel, right? Because that's what's powering the stoves. And so that as a business, you know, may be able to attract a 60% margin or so. And so the stove that then unlocks uh credits is just a layer on in terms of additional revenue which you can so you need to just um it's made sense like I said lots is happening in the sector across or rather in the space across a large number of sectors. I think it's interesting to see where you know a lot of these companies will land but we are taking early bets right in in a number of these companies.
>> So you're pan-African you're not just Nigerian.
>> No we do across Africa. cross.
>> So what's investing what's investing in these sort of sectors like like so how do you so is it like uh maybe investing in our bara or investing in in >> so our bar doesn't have a climate no no I'm talking about I'm not talking about climate I'm talking about wouldn't turn into a climate change for you no that's not what I'm asking what I'm asking what I'm asking >> so when you're investing in these companies right do you also so is it the same kind of numbers that Look at ABC you look at it as so you look at it as you know the way you think about the valuation is also revenue multiples a bit multiples if they're very early you know this year >> so what are what are the not metrics then what what do you what sort of metrics do you look at >> um it depends on the sector and it depends on you know the company that you're you're investing in each one will have whatever their KPI is whether is number of stoves distributed in terms of household reach how much ton of carbon were you able to avoid or remove from the atmosphere um how any um you know uh in terms of we have a gender lens in terms of how we also invest. So how many women are in employment or in the value chain of of what you've been able to achieve or distribute. Um and so for every business is of course very different. Each one of them have their metrics in terms of fertilizer. How many bags of fertilizer have you sold? What is the you know in terms of your feed stock you know um what does that look like you know and how's that growing? Um there's something that is important in calculating the carbon credits with on the technical side which is called um they call it the [ __ ] So that [ __ ] number as well you know what is it and how is it improving over time based on the kind of pit stock you're using um and all of that. A lot goes into it but it depends on your sector and it's almost like investing in any other sector.
>> Any one of them doing $100 million revenue?
>> Not yet potentially but we'll get there.
Not yet, but we'll get there >> soon because again, nent, right, a lot of them are early in their journey.
>> Yes.
>> But with the electric vehicle business, with the EV businesses, I think they'll get there much faster because they've already started businesses, local Nigerian companies with doing EV model.
>> I don't know if you know Max.
>> I know Max starts the back of the locally. And what does they're leading? That's what it means.
Like in terms of the number of vehicles that they have on the road.
>> So do they sell vehicles?
>> Finance. They lease. Yeah. So you pay for it over time over an 18 to 24 months period and the collection could be daily or weekly or monthly.
>> So what are they what vehicles are they leasing out? BYD vehicles or two wheelers. So Max um gig mile is doing the same is is now evolving into that.
Um I know there's a company in Ghana. I just forgot on the name. Uh they were the company I was saying at the initial conversation that they've now been approved to issue carbon credits.
>> You know they're in Ghana. They delivery service. They their bikes are EV and they they basically deliver in Lagos here. I did notice um >> delivery companies that were using bicycles initially. Yeah, >> there was a company called that used to do bicycles. Then they in fact I used to speak with the CEO a lot. He was the first person that explained this battery swapping thing and that was very early.
This was my maybe like 3 years or 4 years ago you know I was talking about you know battery swapping and everything that he's delivery guys and all of that.
So I knew that the industry was evolving at that particular time. I don't know if they've taken to the next level, but people like Max have really been able to attract the right level of capital.
>> If they weren't doing something right, they wouldn't like the level of investors. They have institutional investors on their >> These guys have been existing for years though, 10 years from there, bro. At what point at what point do they mature?
>> So, you know, with they are somewhat mature, right? They've just raised.
Well, this last I know. Are you mature?
>> No, no, no.
Is Tesla not mattered?
>> The point is the point is you need capital to grow. It doesn't mean that you're not profitable, right? You need more capital to grow. That's a lot of these businesses are focused on how are they going to own and capitalize the market. And a lot of that money will not h um a lot of that growth will not come from your internally generated revenue um or your profitability at first over time. Yes. So that's why they need to keep raising. So do they do they have do they have unicorn potentials? Do they are they likely going to be lifestyle businesses? Are they going to exit?
>> No, not lifestyle business. I think you'll see so one of the things you know we're seeing in the market is there's a lot of pressure for exits from investors right um >> and and so what that means is translating directly to these businesses right um and so you know we're seeing that whether it's at the secondary level which means that okay for example we're talking about max let's say I invested in series A or seed >> right someone coming in in series B with a large ticket size um will be potentially will take me out, right? So that creates an exit for me and that speaks to what's happening in the exit market. So to your point around are they going to be able to exit? Yes, at different levels depending on the entry points of these investors. There is activity happening on that front. The broad play for these types of companies, I think it's again growing sectors. Is it going to be a consolidation? I think we'll wait and see. Is it going to be a listing? I don't think I don't know. You know, in terms of we'll wait and see. A lot of these sectors are still growing, still very early. Um but they're showing very very positive signals and they're attracting the right kind of investors.
>> So that was going to be my question right. So outside of EV so yes on the EV side like you guys rightly said there are quite a few businesses and companies that actually pushing EV. I'm seeing some right healing guys but outside of EV and the in the in the spirits of climate change and VC are there any other sectors that are interesting enough cuz in my mind when I hear climate change it feels like a west problem >> whereas it feel like an African problem in my mind. Yes, cuz you know carbon credits, carbon emissions, climate change, u polarized caps, whatever it is. And the west are aggressive about it and we are very silent about it. In my mind, we warrant the silence because I like I can't see or let me ask where are the other sectors outside of EVs that and combining with VC and then I mean I don't know what your life span is for investments 5 10 year and then your exits. What other like you talked about those guys doing pallets is it a 10-year investment and then in 10 years they will list in 10 years are we going to be buying a company that's replaced charcoal with with pallet so is I don't understand like so that's why my climate change is is not an African thing >> no no so because you're thinking about so climate change is the problem but the companies are real companies with real assets right some of them have physical assets they're not even s businesses and so think about businesses And so just think about it as the next.
So the company that is doing fertilizer will have a a manufacturing plant just like somebody else that is manufacturing an FMCG product. That means that you know they can get that they can get equity on the back of their asset. They can grow they they have the ability to create jobs. They have a product that they're selling in the market. I don't want you to think about it as this separate thing that's happening. It's just what's happening right next to you.
It's how you think about the so is innovation that is happening within the sector is the innovation that is happening within the sector >> blocks you out of a vast array of other opportunities no and then you kind of focus on this >> no that's what I'm trying to tell you that when people think about climate they just think either >> it's still bikes it's just that it is bikes that is >> you know how you feel but it's still bikes it's still that's the only one that I can still deliver she said about you know fertilizer which It's funny.
There is so many of them.
>> It's a smart but you don't think you don't think I I look deep enough I will see you see change you don't think you know energy security open up >> energy security energy independence. So as Africans should should we really be be um talking about climate climate >> we should or shouldn't should we?
>> Yes.
>> Why not?
>> When you know like is it going to industrial?
>> Yes. So as a season kayaker I'm seeing that the the Lagos Creek right I'm seeing people like as a season what >> kayaker not kayak.
No we need to go that way. I know just was talking about buying a boat just the other day.
>> Wow. We need to clean our waterways for you. Thank you. Thank you. So I do need to change.
>> I'm trying to just I think what I want to leave you all with don't think about it as this fluffy thing that sounds very nice and esoteric. It's as real as it gets and you know it's really starting to look more like infrastructure the more I look at it but with equity like returns not debt like returns. So yes, >> so I think that's important for me.
>> Yeah, but for me the only issue is that I I I mean I I feel like >> until we see a company that achieves the sort of um level of impact that the likes of maybe inter switch flutterweave pay all these other guys have hit. I don't think that a lot of people would take a lot of people understand will understand how important it is but we have that's what I'm saying in Nigeria is what I'm saying >> no okay maybe not I'm talking about globally there are about in Nigeria again >> for examp I know that's what I'm saying so my point is that I think that until we see one people would really dance that's how things happen >> because it wasn't about explosion of of the likes of uh B you won't see all these fint companies that are coming right along is it happening so until that starts to happen and people start to see that there is a climate change company that is sponsoring >> yeah big >> I think you see that because our mantra and this thing is bold on our website is that we're building climate unicorns so we're being very selective about how we're picking them but we also know that it's not a walk in the park Yeah, >> it's not going to be ins and 1.3 1.5 for first ticket.
>> We are giving money and this is USD, right?
>> Yes. And this is and this is early when we say our early stage because usually when we go early it's attention >> it's less than it's less than 500 usually and so what I'm saying is that >> sorry >> what what I'm saying is that you know one I've established that climate is not just this bubble it's across a range of sectors two the quantum of capital that we look to deploy as a first ticket is very important because there is a gap in the market somewhere. We're seeing that somewhere between that preede and we do preede too. We could do if it's green and if if it does make a lot of sense for for our mandate, right? But there's a gap somewhere between that 100k 200k tickets that companies are getting and the 2 million 5 million that they need to raise. Investors are ready to do two five but there's nobody in between. Not many people in between taking those very risky positions to capitalize the growth.
>> So we can't Yes. And we don't just give you the money and then go to bed. We almost co- build with you. We help you to get to if you have a 5year plan to achieve a particular strategic objective, we see how we can work with you to achieve that in maybe even 3 years with our network, our influence, our ability to unlock um carbon credits if your business qualifies among a few other modalities, right? Um and so those things that we're doing, we think will really drive what the shapers of climate space will be in the long term. But it's not a it's not um a 5year play, right?
Some of them might be, you know, for example, clean one of the clean cooking companies that were invested in um if the if the LOAs come in, then they're they're off to the races essentially because, you know, that's a nearly $12 million backed contract.
>> Um and so what that means is that, you know, they're able to really unlock capital to to to drive that growth. That then answers your question of a hundred million dollar company. But it's not going to get there um without the level of work, manpower and resources that they need.
>> But they often care. Is there is there a market here for this? Yeah. There is that's what I'm telling you. They users you use gas to cook. That's why you don't know the reality of what's happening. Shakol is very unhealthy and then these companies are displacing that feels like gas, >> you know. And for them it's like we're giving you the stove. All you have to do is buy your talent which is comparing and they've compared and almost matched that in some cases or even slightly lower than the cost of charcoal.
>> Oh wow.
>> So they're displacing charcoal for low income.
>> What is the do you have the you have the data for char? I'm sure the charcoal users but that's just me being curious.
We can I will I don't have it interesting to see the potential um um displacement or replacement >> and I can imagine of course I can imagine something >> and and I think this is this is when this I think this is the thing that is most important >> a company like Gigmax are not specifically climate change businesses.
>> What are they?
>> They are mobility businesses. They are getting your goods from point A to point B. They deliver goods. They provide bikes to riders who get goods from here to there. Now they are models have now started to flip to the point where they are now taking their normal rides which were powered by petrol and now changing it to >> electric >> electric or you know renewables and swapping batteries and everything. So the truth about it is that the business then that that does $100 million will not be called it will most likely not be called an e business or a climate change business. It will just be you that has has seen the dynamics of the business that this business is largely tilted towards this area because it's a normal business. It just does what the business does. That's why I was saying that um it has to be a consumerf facing business and that's why I was interested in >> in some cases >> in cooking because I mean if there's one thing Nigerians do is eat right. So everybody yeah we eat so and our food is not the type of food that you cook in 5 minutes.
>> So the company that sells those stoves for instance right it's it's a stove selling >> you know those stoves that use kerrosin they replacing all those >> what about lamps like kerosin lamps and candles and all that stuff. Well, I think that's where you're seeing the solar guys play. A lot of these their products that are helping to this kind of copper has moved into >> phones. I think last I checked.
>> Okay.
>> But there a lot of you know um solar providers that are focused on these very low-inccome communities. How do we charge your phone? How do we create light that can last for 6 to 8 hours?
Things like that. So those things have now replaced that um lantern. But I wanted to clear something about Max in particular in terms of where they operating. They're not just a mobility business now. They're a fintech business. They're also a climate business. And the fintech element for them is that they've been able to look at the customer base that they have, which is drivers. And think about what kind of value added services can I give or add on to what I'm already offering in terms of leasing um a bike to you or a three-wheeler to you. And so whether it's insurance, whether it's giving them an identity, whether it's vehicle maintenance, those things are, you know, offered and then baked into what your daily price is. So spread over time in a way that you don't feel it on a, you know, as a driver that is living in, you know, somewhere deep inside state and you're living on maybe a few dollars or less a day. So it's the fact that they're able to play that role in terms of create that level of impact, still make money, still make margins, and still help the environment that is helping those types of companies to grow at a faster rate and attract the right kind of capital.
>> Okay.
>> All right. Um guys, it's almost 2 hours.
You guys didn't know that.
>> This is how it happens. Yeah.
>> So please when when you when you when you then meet people who talk about the fact that the is long explain to them what because I saw someone who met me at uh I was have I was having dinner with my kids some at some restaurant. I was like hi I I friend I was like everybody in the world is friend. He was like but the show is too long. I'm like sorry it just happens. Anyway, it's long for a reason.
I mean, um, we don't we don't expect that you watch the entire 2 hours straight. You can watch it in bits and bits. Yeah, I do people I know a lot of people who watch it like >> in your background. So, when you're doing stuff and all that, that's why you can catch us on Spotify.
>> Saturday morning workout, >> you can you can listen to on Spotify.
You can watch it, you know, download it and watch it on your on flight and long flight, whatever. I mean, several reasons that you can watch.
>> Yeah. Um, thank you so much so so much for being a part of the show. By the way, barah to all our Muslim um >> yeah, Muslim friends who are watching as well. Appreciate you guys. And um of course um we're going to be back next week definitely. Um but before then uh there is um Nametrics Capital Market Awards coming up on the 5th of June exclusive. I'm sorry. Uh invite only.
>> So you guys >> Yeah. So we're uh Because giving awards to capital markets to my school be there for sure. That's for sure. They don't need invite.
>> Including all our invites.
>> Including all doesn't check his email.
Including all our past past um uh >> no no guest on drinks and mics as well.
>> Oh invites extended as well. Captain Mar.
>> Thank you.
>> Yes.
Invite >> cuz you said pass. just because you're eating 5th of June. Of course, thanks of course to our partners on Drinks and Mice, uh, Mandelas, >> lead drop, and of course, Swan, >> by the way, the last one was really great. Uh, the first one, Abby, the first one was really great for if if you didn't turn up, there was um there was all the, you know, fun, the pageantry, everything. There was also a lot of whiskey right around the table. So, it was really a fun night. I I really enjoyed it.
>> All right. Fantastic. Um, >> yeah. So, thank you so much for being on the show. Uh, thanks for having me.
>> Buy a hold for her.
>> Bye. Huge buy. Strong.
>> See, all our guests are buy like buys.
We don't bring any guest. I really would want to have a >> change. And >> I really want to have a one-on-one.
>> I like the fact that >> I want to have a one-on-one on the coffee table. You just talk climate because Tuni and Arnold, >> we're really slow in the world today.
So, let's just give you climate change.
So, we have climate change discussion because there like so much that >> we need to know. Like I said, for me, it's a western problem, right? It's just a >> western problem.
>> Yeah. I mean, the floods here, Legos is sinking. We need to figure out infrastructure. In my mind once we figure out climate change we will flood our sinking legos. No, no, but part of it is part of it. But in my mind, it's not climate change. It's infrastructure.
Part of it, >> right? If we fix our infrastructure, we don't need to care about climate change.
That's how what we're seeing climate change.
>> But the floods in Los is it is it climate change that's causing it. Or is it the fact that everywhere two different things in Los said Lagos was sinking many years ago that would be linked to climate change. The floods would be our infrastructure, the drainage on the road not climate change.
>> Yes. So I I kind of I see climate change as more as an opportunity in Nigeria than as a problem.
>> If the polar ice caps are melting, then the water levels are rising.
>> See my flood is not coming from that. When we have flood, it's coming from having conversations weather that's climate change. Hot weather.
all together but that's opportunity that means solact solar works very well in this part of the world >> yes it does and and I don't I mean I I >> I think solar is getting cheaper uh I have a 20ka deal for example for 12 million >> but rising across I'm sure we have like archipilago of different islands somewhere around Niger >> right I was rising in those small small islands as well >> I don't have the answer to that question so Yeah, this is just too much.
>> Yeah, sorry.
>> You're reading too much. Are you charging lately?
>> No, no, >> too much errors. By the way, >> has errors.
>> AI has errors.
>> No, it does.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> In fact, when you tell me that, are you sure? He said, oh, I'm like, you're right.
>> It's like, you might be right. Actually, you're right.
>> Close it. I just close it and start.
>> So these days when I try >> I play games with Claude like this is what Chad said. What do you think? And that one feels a bit challenging where you can improve. I'm like okay I see your point.
>> No no that's that's that's the way to work it. So you open two of them you get the results. If you put it on this one and say you you don't even tell it Claude said you know you see just take all the points put it here and I'm like oh okay I've noticed that let me fix this you take it back is it fine now no there's still this this this you bring it back here and then it says and then you find go back to AI but I kind of feel like um um we will be more I think AI will be more useful for productivity than for factecking and search maybe it will improve as as time goes But I think that um the AI that will be useful is the AI that can come and help you fix your Excel sheets or you code one thing.
>> But it's factecking and all that. You got to be very careful because the thing can throw up a lot of absolutely a lot of very >> you know wrong information.
>> I was always asking for references when it gives you stats and like >> give me the reference reference. Where did you get this?
>> So I'm not going to read it by myself.
I'm like okay right sometimes it cannot give you a reference. is like I made estimated on this. You have to be very careful.
He's actually very worried.
>> All right guys, thank you so much for being a part of Drinks and Mics. Of course, uh if you haven't subscribed yet, do subscribe because that's how you can get this and that's how this channel continues to grow. Um next week is going to be another interesting episode of Drinks and Mics as we approach the end of the season. Of course, end of the season comes with a live audience edition of Drinks and Mics. So those of you who have been a part of this doing some nice family, you get an opportunity to be with us uh live as we record and I mean the reason why we go for for those who have asked me why do you always why do you guys stop? Well, we have to go on break because Truni and I know like to go on their holiday. They don't like they don't mess with their summer holidays. I'm sticking around. I'm going to be around always. But >> am I around in the summer?
>> Am I?
>> No. He usually usually No, no, no. He usually is around during the summer and Christmas, >> but he travels every other time >> he almost makes I didn't know as in something in Abuja. I think he also has a big next time.
Bye.
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