This interview provides a sharp deconstruction of religious dogma, exposing the conflict between institutional authority and historical truth. It is a compelling example of how critical inquiry can dismantle long-standing theological claims.
Install our extension to search inside any video instantly.
S17/9 - Former SDA Legends Series #1 - Wallace SlatteryAdded:
Heat. Hey, heat. Hey, heat.
You love me so much All that I could ever know.
Your love is deeper than this world will ever show.
And all of life's beauty shines around this moment now. The sky and the cliffs, they seem to change my life somehow.
And I I will never be will never be the same. Will never be the same. Woah.
Woah. Woah. I I will never be never be the same.
Never be the same ever again.
Well, here I am waiting. Lord, my life is just for you.
Please unfold all the plans that you would have me do. And if all the world's just a breath, then nothing's here to stay.
And all of the love we feel will save us anyway.
And I I will never be will never be the same.
Never be the same.
Oh, I I will never be will never be the same. I'll never be the same.
ever again.
I I will never be will never be the same.
Never be the same. Oh, I I will never be will never be the same.
Never be the same. Ever again.
Heat up here.
Yeah.
Heat.
Never be the same.
And God's will is simple.
The most wretched man in hell will not be Adolf Hitler.
The most wretched man in hell or woman will not be one like Joe Stalin or some of these more modern devils. The most wretched person in hell will be a former Seventh Day Adventist.
Heat. Hey, heat. Hey, heat.
Hello and welcome to SDA Q&A. Good to have you all here. My special guest back again is Wallace Slatterie. How are you, Wallace?
>> I'm fine. Happy to see you, Peter. Good touh have you on the program and I I had to cajol you a little bit because I know that uh you're you know you're feeling like uh maybe you know you're you're going to retire now.
>> Retire something.
>> Now um when we had you on the last show we talked a little bit about your book which I'm just bringing up onto the screen. uh Seventh Day Adventists, False Prophets, a former insider speaks out and uh that book had a big influence on me and also a TV series or a cable TV show um that Larry Wessles ran called Christian Answers TV or C Answers TV. Um that when that aired, was it early 90s?
I think it was 1991, >> right? I wouldn't have seen it until YouTube kind of started and all of that material became available. So, I would have seen it um I don't know, I guess mid 2000s or 2008 or something. But wow, that that had a huge influence on me.
And um just just lately in the last couple of weeks I've been thinking, you know what, a lot of um former Adventists who have written books, created YouTube channels, uh created websites, are still living, but they're in that um period of their life where they're slowing down a bit. And so I wanted to start a series called former uh SDA Legends. And this will be series, this is the series now.
And this is episode one of that.
And uh the criteria is you got to be 70 plus, still alive, uh former Adventist, preferably name off the books, off the role, and that you have some kind of content that I can uh that I know has helped people either a book or a website or a YouTube channel. And uh you tick all those boxes.
So, um I want to take >> what's that?
>> Glad to hear that.
>> Yes. And those watching, if you know anybody, um that fits that criteria, let me know. I want to interview someone every few weeks. And um down the track, we're going to also create an SDA Q&A, former SDA Hall of Fame where people can be living or dead, but people like Dale Ratzlaf, who uh had a huge influence.
Um, I would like to include him on that list.
>> Did you know did you know Dale personally?
>> No, I did not.
>> Wow.
>> I I have talked at times with his uh assistant Colleen Tinker a number of times.
>> Yes. Yeah.
>> But uh I have never uh actually spoken to Dale.
>> Right. Yeah. Well, welcome everybody.
Good to have you here. Please engage in the comments. Don't forget to click like and subscribe. It really helps. And if you have a few uh few dollars spare, I'd love if you went over there to PayPal and uh threw a couple of couple of dollars my way. It's like I'm uh singing and performing and busking for you on the street. And here's my guitar case.
And if you enjoy the music, the content, uh throw a few dollars into PayPal. But it's uh PayPal.
Peter Dixon Music. Uh, failing that.
Watch for free. Everybody enjoy the content and at the very least it helps if you just like and subscribe.
Uh, I'm going to take you back in time, Wallace, and actually play a little bit of the Larry Wessles video. We might just play a couple of minutes just to take you back and then I'm going to ask you a little bit of uh your memories of Larry, the show, how it all came about and your beautiful wife sadly now passed. Carol um features in this video as well. And >> no, no, she's she's alive. We have separated.
>> Oh, >> we're still very very close friends.
>> I remember for some reason when we last spoke, I just got the impression that she'd passed.
>> No, she's very much alive. I'm happy to tell you.
>> Can you say a big hello from me to her?
It's good that you're still friends.
>> She's watching the show.
>> Hi, Carol. I wonder if Carol would come on the show at some point.
possible. I don't know. We'll see.
>> Well, yeah. Well, the uh invitation is extended to you, Carol. You might be number two on our legends series because what I was going to say is that Carol's input into this interview was uh profound and very uh what shall I say?
Um honest, authentic, and very um real.
She just shared her feelings right straight away.
wore her heart on a sleeve. But both of you were very logical, rational, and presented some fantastic um ideas and thoughts. So, Carol, hello and welcome to the show and sorry for thinking you had passed on.
That's big fauxar.
Okay. Well, let's uh watch this a little bit of the Larry Wessles um program. I'll just see if I can get it working.
Just give me a moment.
Hello and welcome to our show. I'm Larry Wessles, your host, and I want to thank you for joining us today. We have a special show on the subject seventh day advent.
>> It's a little bit quiet.
>> What do they believe? What do they >> what what is their source of authority?
Are they Christians? Are they a cult?
Well, we we're going to try to answer some of these questions in this uh uh brief survey of this particular religion. Now, joining me today is uh an author of a book which I have right here called our 7th Day Adventist False Prophets. A former insider speaks out.
Wallace D. Slatterie is the author. And this book is published by Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company. Uh and I'll hold it in the middle here so you can get a good look at it. This is available through our ministry. Uh it's available through uh uh Christian bookstores, through Wallace's ministry.
And so I urge you to get this. This is one of the the best publications I've seen to date on the Seventh Day Adventism. For something that's short and and sweet, you might say, to getting right at the heart of the matter of Seventh Day Adventism. But time is short for this program. We only have so much time. I'd like to introduce now my special guest and his wonderful wife, Wallace. Great to have you here.
>> Happy to be here.
>> And Carol, your wife. Uh, well, as I understand, you were in Seventh Day Adventism for over 40 years yourself, and so was Carol. That's >> correct.
>> And, uh, we're here today to kind of just help our viewers out there who probably know very little about Seventh Day Adventism. And what I'd like you to do right now is uh just give a a brief history overview and then let's start getting into some of the some of the uh you know try to figure out if they're a cult or or what's going on. Go ahead.
>> Uh Adventism is a product of the great Millerite movement of the 1830s and 40s where they believed that Christ would come in uh 1844 when Jesus did not. Of course, many people left the organization. However, some small bands joined together under the charismatic leadership of a woman named Ellen White.
This is her picture here, >> who had a series of visions. And uh the results were over the next number of years the formation of the 7th Day Adventist religion. Uh and uh the the uh church has grown over the years to a very large worldwide church. Uh at present they are somewhere between six and 7 million believers and they're growing very very rapidly >> mainly overseas.
>> Mainly overseas but they are based in the United States.
>> I guess her headquarters in what?
Washington DC.
>> Washington DC. Right.
>> And they have the wide estate there. It has all her writings and stuff like that.
>> That's correct.
>> And as our chart has here, it says the spirit of prophecy is she's considered to be >> that's what she's called.
>> She's considered to be the prophetess of God giving latter- day revelation.
>> That's right. the remnant church which is considered the seventh day Adventist church and all churches outside of that are considered like uh Babylon or >> That's right. confusion >> confusion and things like this >> and that's really a heretical thing too because the spirit of prophecy in the Bible is Christ.
>> That's right. That's right. And uh well uh >> why don't you tell us a little bit about uh just some of their general beliefs.
First of all, what we we all know pretty much about they keep the Sabbath, >> right? Well, that is pretty much the foundation of their beliefs. I really would say uh you are schooled in that from the very beginning. But there are a number of doctrines they have that are comparatively unique. In fact, the first one I'm going to mention is unique only to 7th day Adventism. And that is the belief that in October 1844, Jesus went from the holy place of the most of the uh temple in heaven into the most holy place and that he is making the final atonement before the throne of God there. They also teach in uh soul sleep.
Uh Adventism also teaches that the ten commandments including of course the Sabbath are still binding upon mankind.
They also teach that the old testament rules of diet are still binding upon mankind. That is that uh you are not to eat any pork pork products. Actually adventism is very strong in its belief that vegetarianism is a a spiritually superior way of life. Mhm.
>> Um >> and that that's test of fellowship.
>> And it is definitely a test of fellowship.
>> I see. They have other doctrines I know like soul sleep uh traditional mortality, annihilation of the soul at death.
>> That's right.
>> And uh numerous other uh teachings and things that uh >> the role of the spirit of prophecy, of course, the role of Ellen White is very strong in their uh denomination.
>> So what have you what have you say?
Well, I I want to join them, but I just don't want to keep the Sabbath.
Uh, it won't happen.
>> It's like saying, "I want to be a a vegetarian, but I want to eat meat."
>> Okay. So, those two just won't go together at all.
>> That's right. Yeah.
>> And, uh, let's say you're a Seventh Day Adventist and then you, let's say, apostasize or something and and and like you become a Baptist.
Uh what's what what would they say happens to you for giving up everything you had Sabbathke keeping you know and you let's say you just become a mainline evangelical Christian >> go to hell >> okay so 7th day Adventism right away condemns anyone in their organization that would leave their organization to join let's say a bibleelving evangelical Christian fellowship.
>> That's right.
>> So you go don't go you don't pass go you go straight to hell.
>> That's right. if uh if you try to join any evangelical Christian organization.
>> That's correct.
>> Uh that sounds kind of cultic.
>> Incidentally, when my wife and I sent in our letter of resignation in March of 18 of uh 19 1984, we received a letter back from the pastor stating that since we no longer wanted to believe the ten commandments of God that we were being released from membership. So that gives you an idea of the hold that the >> ten commandments.
>> That's almost like a fear monger. They think that you're going to become an atheist right off the bat.
>> Oh, yes. We are definitely headed for the ditch as drunks.
>> You know, I was uh that reminds me of a cult I was witnessing to years ago and uh the Lord allowed me to leave one of them out and he went on his own way to join another fellowship and I kind of lost contact with him. But then a year later, something they're telling me, oh, he went into adultery and he's a drunk and all this kind of stuff. But I it got me concerned. I went and checked to see how the guy was doing. I tracked him down and found out he was living with his parents and going to a good Bible believing church and he still loved the Lord. But they told me all these terrible things that you know >> they think if if you uh leave Adventism, you're going to leave God. You're leaving God.
>> That's right.
>> So So what is this?
Now this brings me the question of Seventh Day Adventists. Uh I know from Walter Martin writing the kingdom of the cults, there's a controversy going on with evangelicals. Some of them say they're a cult and some of them say, "Well, they're not. They're just brothers in Christ. They just have some strange doctrines." Uh, but this looks funny to me that how do most But you're saying to me that most Seventh Day Adventists >> view evangelical Christians, let's say >> as people that are not Christians or Christians. No, they are part of apostate Protestant Protestantism. and >> and uh I highly encourage everybody to go and watch that. Um you just simply type in Wallace Slatterie and uh look up Larry Wessles Cancers TV. It's a YouTube channel and interestingly there um Wallace Michael Johnson has written um Wallace if you are reading this it is you that made me leave for good. That was back in 2016.
So the influence of of your material and content even though I think you mentioned the book was how many years ago that you wrote it?
>> It came out in 1990.
>> So yeah. So um you know it's still having an influence on people to this day. So >> to the best of my knowledge, it was the first book uh really dissecting Adventism and recommending that people leave it since maybe the early 1900s.
There may have been others, but I don't know of them.
>> No. Well, there's books that kind of act a bit like uh Walter Rays um Ron Numbers that act as a his like a um I guess not an attack but a a revelation whereas yours was a concise um product or resource that was really leaning to encouraging people to to leave.
>> Uh that's correct.
>> Tell us a little bit of your memories of Larry Wessles. He's still alive. He he gave me permission to use um as much of the content of Seanc Answers TV as I wanted to, which was very nice. Larry, if you're watching, thank you. Um what are your memories of Larry and and that show?
>> It was out of the blue. Um I was beginning to get, you know, some calls about various things having to do with my book, but this was just completely out of the blue. I'd never heard of them. And uh I was uh happy to come though because I really felt that I had a message that needed to be disseminated.
And uh so Carol and I flew to Dallas and uh they put us up very nicely and it seems to me that we were there for two days to give a series of talks and uh it was very enjoyable. I enjoyed it. And uh then sometime later, I don't remember how much later, I got a call from them asking if I could uh give permission for them to put this out uh in in uh I guess they called it a podcast at that time. I'd never heard of it, but I I felt anytime that my message was getting out there, it was a good deal. So, I said absolutely. And uh every now and then I get a call from somebody saying that they've seen it and that that's very rewarding.
>> Well, I I'm hoping because I don't think you have plans for it being re-released your the book. I'm hoping that um you at some point you might give me permission to release an audio book version of it and um we'll see how that goes. But um >> I'd be happy to. Yeah, I just feel like it's a wonderful resource and um and I'm really so pleased you're on our program today. Those that are just joining us, I'm chatting with uh Wallace Slatterie and this is a a series within our SDA Q&A show that I'm calling former SDA Legends series. And um if you know anybody that is uh 70 plus has a some kind of content or resource available to people has had an influence that they've left the church preferably they have taken their name off the roles as well but uh uh I'm keen to interview the and and celebrate and pay tribute to this this uh particular generation of courageous people that um really cleared the way for normalizing leaving the Adventist church and for presenting such incredible material that uh is so convincing. Can you tell us a little bit, Wallace, of when you first started having your doubts?
>> I certainly can. Um it was about 1977.
I was principal of a school in Cal Southern California and Adventist school and one of the teachers casually she was from Lom Melinda and she casually mentioned that uh there had been a man who referring to Walder Ray who had come out and found out that much of Ellen White's work was copied and uh that really got my interest up because I I couldn't believe it because we'd been taught that it all came straight from heaven you know straight from God. And uh so during my summers, I was working on an advanced degree. I started researching during my spare time. They had a heritage room or as it was known then maybe the heretic room. But uh anyway, I um would go in there and look up various manuscripts on early adventism, but I really wasn't getting too far with it. It just seemed like things had been well hidden and well put away. And then finally in 1980, I did notice that all roads seemed to lead to Walter Ray. So in 1980, I contacted him that summer and went over there and he showed me stuff that just absolutely, as they say, blew me out of the water. I couldn't believe the amount of copying and false prophecies. He showed me all kinds of things along both these lines. I took I bought some of the materials, copies and uh took it home and that was a Friday afternoon. So, Sabbath I spent my time in the afternoon going through the materials. Then I I spoke to Carol, showed her the material.
She was as stunned as I was, maybe more so because she hadn't been doing any research in it. And uh it just things transpired from there.
Yeah. What what do you think was the like you're mentioning the copying there and Walter Ray's material. What what for you after that became the dominant doctrinal issue for you with Adventism?
>> That's a good question. And u interestingly enough, Carol contacted a minister, an Adventist minister we had a lot of respect for named John Taves. And he told us that not only was it true, but that uh the u his entire church was voting that this coming Sabbath to leaving Adventism and becoming an independent church.
Well, we went down there and I had a lot of questions as you can imagine and John told me and others there told me that there was a new book called coming out called Judged by the Gospel by Robert >> Brinsmade.
>> I got a copy. In fact, some friends I mean not friends but new acquaintances brought it down to us and we went through that book like oh you can't believe how we went through that book.
And uh then we became what we called evangelical adventist.
We believed that we believed that Ellen White was still inspired but she just wasn't the subject of u direct visions.
And uh in other words we were still seventh day adventist but we believe that uh m much more fervently in the justification by faith and so forth. But uh we found that didn't work. People found out we had moved to Pennsylvania in the process and people found out that uh we believed as we did and they basically froze us out and then we continued studying ourselves. Robert Brinsme continued developing his own theology and I wouldn't say his own theology but at least the theology that was more biblical and we followed through his material with that and eventually like I said in um uh March of 1984 we turned in our letter of resignation.
So 84 um within Adventism was a very big year because uh John Ankerberg did a show um called Adventism at the Crossroads and he he mentioned um the plagiarism, the Davenport financial fiasco and Dez Ford. What what are your memories of being plonked right there in the middle of all of that going on? Uh being adult, being aware, what were your thoughts? You've mentioned plagiarism a little bit. What were your thoughts on Davenport and um Dez Ford?
>> Well, it's interesting you mentioned that. You're talking about Dr. Donald Davenport.
>> Yes.
>> Right. Okay. Well, for those who wouldn't remember back then because that's 40 plus years ago. He was a a financeier who uh was building post offices and he would borrow money from Adventist leaders including the then president of the general conference. I can't think of his name. Uh but uh he would pay them back with interest rates as high as 80%.
And eventually it caught up with him and uh of course what had happened is that these Adventist leaders had gone to a lot of little old lady retirees and said this is really a fantastic deal. We look at the money we're making off it. And so these ladies were turning their money, taking out of wherever it was, stocks or whatever, and turning it into Davenport's uh financial dealings. And then he went bankrupt and left a lot of these. Of course, the people who had been in early, such as the SDA leaders, they they came off all right. But the people who came in later, like the little old ladies, they ended up being badly uh taken for their money. It was a very sad affair.
There are there's a lot of suspicion back then that it was a Ponzi scheme, but I'm not going to speculate one way or the other. M the we we're just mentioning the white lie. um Ray >> uh and it's interesting of those three crossroads Adventism at the crossroads the John Ankerberg show he mentions the plagiarism and of course Walter Ray who later comes on the show uh and he mentions Davenport and Walter Ray was also uh you know involved with the re revelations there and he wrote a book pirates of privilege which they were going to fire they were going to cancel his sustenation or something like that if he released it. So he did a deal but it is available now online and that lists names and names of people um that were involved and my understanding that is that the church not only invited not only involved their own leadership doing private involvement with Davenport and talking little old ladies into sharing their retirement funds. They also spent something like 20 something million 1979 US dollars of ad of of the church money into the this scheme as well. Um >> that's my >> Yeah. Now I I spoke with um Jim Wagner about this who was Walter Ray's lawyer at the time. Um, and he said officially it's not a Ponzi scheme, but it's it's someone, you know, obviously uh offering you, you know, quick money if you invest in this. And it did have elements of a pyramid scheme because obviously that kind of momentum relied on a lot of people joining up and as you said, a few people made a lot of money in it. Um but at the end of the day um the they it just collapses in on itself. Now I I cannot remember the name but it's revealed in um that book one of the presidents or names that was officially working for the church spent something like $100,000 1979 $100,000 uh into the scheme. I'm vaguely remembering 400,000 from someone else.
Um, and they they really fell for this kind of um this this plan. Um, so the third thing was was Dez Ford, but one of the interesting >> I knew Dez Ford too.
>> Yeah, I I'll get you to chat about him in a moment. But one of the interesting things that I've discovered about Adventists, Adventist leadership and business schemes, they they seem to be a little bit gullible. Um, and you know, there's many many instances um of of that kind of fiscal um naivity that over the years that that the leadership just falls for. And I I wonder sometimes if if a high control movement almost creates kind of a weaker kind of mind when it comes to investments, finance. Um you know there seems to be too many uh financial mistakes that the leadership has made over the years. And of course all churches and movements make mistakes. I'm not saying that. there's almost like a thread, a core, something marinated in the Adventist leadership that can um lead them to just make these kind of bad decisions financially. Have you noticed that? And do you think it's can be equated to a high control movement?
>> I would say so. Yes. I have no problem with what you're saying. Yeah.
>> So, so tell us a little bit about Dez Ford. You've met him. Um, what kind of influence did he have on you and your move out of Adventism?
>> Well, I I met Dez Ford at a I believe it was a Bible conference um about 1979 or so and uh we had breakfast together. We talked a great deal about the gospel, justification and fa by faith and so forth. uh I can't say that I was involved with uh you know his book but uh for the people who are listening who may not be aware of it he came out with a book saying that uh the 1844 investigative judgment simply was unbiblical >> and he was invited to meet at Glacier View I think it was uh camp in Colorado.
>> Yeah. or I've been by the way a number of times. Beautiful camp. But uh to uh explain his uh views and his his message and he did. He had been promised is my understanding that uh nothing would happen to him. And so they listened to him and then they defrocked him, took away his ministerial credentials and left him on the outside.
>> Mhm. M >> that gives you an idea of what a trustworthy group of people they may be.
>> Yes. Yeah. It was like a kangaroo court we call it over here.
>> Yes, it was.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh in fact, I did a whole series uh season two. We're up to season 17, episode 9. And um in season two we did 86 interviews with many people who were actually there at Glacier View. And I interviewed people like Larry Gerity, Fred Sky, George Knight, um many many others that were there. And so we've created a a resource there, season two, that we're slowly uploading to YouTube and the general public that I'm hoping people can um draw upon for years to come.
So when when you looked at Ellen White, you made your decision, you and Carol, you know, leave.
At what point did you and maybe you haven't, but what point was there a point where you saw Ellen as more than just inaccurate?
um maybe a false prophet, but maybe also someone that was um disingenuous in her and dishonest in her >> building of the church. Did did you go through a series of that or did you like many throw out investigative judgment but see her still as an inspiring woman?
The book the book that really impressed me a lot about that was uh Steve Daly's book Ellen G. White a psychobiography.
Uh the the picture that comes here is not of a mistaken person. It's a person who knew exactly what she was doing and she was being she was out to get grasp every bit of money she could and if anybody and destroy anybody who got in her way and that's when I real when by by the time I was done with the book I knew this was a purely evil woman.
>> Wow.
you. It's interesting that your your book which which we've mentioned a couple of times the the are 7th Day Adventists false prophets um there's a there's a direct line from that book through to other books by Dale Ratzlaf um many other authors that and and Steve Daly's book. There's a there's a line there of connection.
And um did you have you ever spoken to to Steve Daly or >> I think he was my professor at Lassiiera University, >> right?
>> Back in 1981. I'm not positive, but uh I can't help but think it was he he >> Yeah, >> I would love to chat with him. I think we'd have lot to each other.
>> Yeah. Well, he has been on the show several times and um I met him a year or two ago in at Riverside in California just briefly and um had had a wonderful chat with him. He invited me to sing at his church the next day just down the road which I did which I did and I saw a wonderful side of him um that I knew was there but seeing it in action was incredible. his his love of offering people pastoral care was very prominent in his sermon, his presentation, how he ran his church, uh how he cared for people in the church.
Um he and his wife, I just noted that side of them, the giving. Um some people see his work as being just attacking Adventism, but really he's just highlighting um like a lighthouse, you know, a warning.
>> He was a very good teacher.
>> Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Peter, could I say something I think you might find interesting?
>> Yes, please.
>> I have compared Adventism to an onion.
It's bright and shiny on the outside, but the more you go into, you find layer after layer after layer. And the more you get into it, the deeper the layers go, and the more rank and insufferable they become. I I I keep thinking this has got to be the absolute rotten core of Adventism. And then something else comes out >> and it's just it it seems to be unending. There's just one thing after another about Adventism. M >> uh it >> leaves me shaking my head.
>> It intrigues me that so many scholars, academics, progressive Adventists, liberal Adventists, people who were very supportive of of Dez Ford, not necessarily agreeing with everything he said, but they're supportive of the notion that the J is not biblical, etc. it it intrigues me or interests me why they haven't seen this onion effect that you've just spoken about. Um and and they keep digging down and in fact they're responsible for reing revealing many of the deeper layers, but they still seem to want to hang on to Ellen, revise her, reclaim her, place her in her right position. I've had people on the show that are academics and scholars saying almost smuggly, "Oh, we don't even use her. We don't refer re refer to her. We don't read her writings." And I'm like, if this was >> and if this person was truly the had had the spirit of prophecy, was a prophet, was such an amazing messenger with an incredible end days message for for the last days. Wouldn't they want to be boldly promoting her? So my question is why do they reveal so much about the layers of the onion going deeper and and have made us weep with what they've revealed and yet all of on the other hand defend her and want to lift her up as an inspiration or honor her as a founder. But what's going on with that?
Like I just find that so they're either very deluded or disingenuous.
>> I wonder sometimes if some of this doesn't have to do with money. These people might have difficulty finding jobs elsewhere.
>> And I have noted I've been told that Adventism pays its ministers better than just about any other church.
>> Right.
>> And think about it. If you're an Adventist minister, what else are you trained to do?
>> Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's sad, isn't it? I mean, I I can I can understand back in the 80s when the whole Glacier View thing went down and hundreds of pastors left or were fired from the church here in Australia and in the States. I can understand why some of them felt a bit of hope that if they hung together and they could change the church. Larry Gerity had a huge influence over the 28 fundamentals.
now in kind of making them more palatable to for other Christians to read. Um they I I can see why they hung in at that point. But 46 years later, they they're still writing books. I don't know if you saw this one recently.
I often hold it up. They they still they have written a book called Reclaiming the Prophet. They still >> Yeah. And it got banned within six days.
Well, you know, allegedly and maybe I might be a little bit inaccurate, but these guys, these leaders of the progressive gospel movement, 46 years later, they're still speaking with the same kind of hope they had in 1984.
Um I just don't understand that other than like you say uh unless it's for you know they're they don't want to lose their pension or something or or maybe because it's such a cultural thing for them that they the camaraderie they love happy Sabbath hay stacks worship music and you know maybe maybe that's another motivator and so for for a cultural adventist I don't mind but they don't seem to be quiet about about it. They reveal Ellen White's flaws and then they go, "Oh, but hang on. We've revealed too much. She's a lovely lady." It's It's like a weird cognitive dissonance going on.
>> I I have noticed that too. Um I I personally think the money has a lot to do with it. But >> yeah, >> um Adrien Anderson writes that re you mentioned earlier Bob Brinsme's book. He he said, "Uh, reading Bob Brinsmeid's book, Judged by the Gospel changed my life. It's my all book." Yeah.
>> Um, I've had Bob on the show a couple of times. Uh, I might get him on as part of this um this series because we can talk about the work he's done and and be more specific about that book. Um, I've started reading it again just in the last few weeks actually. So, it's interesting that you mention it again.
I I I'd forgotten what it was actually really about and it's a it's much more of a Adventism is judged by the gospel kind of book.
>> I would say there are three three thesis in it. One is basically dissects Ellen White and shows where she made a huge number of horrific mistakes. uh one is uh justification by faith and one is uh dissecting the investigative judgment and pointing out his fallacy.
>> Yes. Yes. Um I'm I'm enjoying reading it again. It's definitely definitely worth a read.
Can you share some more thoughts? Uh we've talked about leadership, we've talked about plagiarism.
um share some thoughts a bit more deeply about Ellen's conf confirmative visions that 1844 uh was an accurate date. The 2,300 days that Miller spoke of were accurate, but um that just simply the event uh was different. This this unique doctrine that Adventists hold on the investigative judgment and the sanctuary doctrine relies heavily on Ellen's confirmative visions. Uh and it doesn't seem to hold uh much water when it comes to finding that info from the Bible.
When when you started looking into that puzzle, what kind of things were revealed to you?
Well, I I think basically it was Hebrews just basically reading through Hebrews and seeing where the Bible talks about how Jesus ascended to heaven and he immediately uh was in the presence of the father and uh made a final atonement. He had made his final atonement. That's just the exact opposite of what Adventism of course is.
>> And so it really didn't take an awful lot. Uh, I know that Adventism has all sorts of ingenious um answers for everything. I often compare them to prairie dogs come from out west.
>> You chase a prairie dog down one hole, it pops up another.
>> That's a very good analogy. That's how I often feel.
>> Yeah. That's how I often feel when I chat to to the progressive gospel Adventists. I found them more annoying than the traditional Adventists because on the one hand you'll say, "Well, are you suggesting that keeping the Sabbath is salvific?" Oh, no, no, no, no. We're not saying that. I I you know, and then they'll come up with some clever little answer and and you think, "Oh, where'd the prairie dog go?" "Oh, there it is over there." So you run over there and and you say, "Well, what about, you know, what about Ellen White's confirmation that the atonement vision that the atonement wasn't fully completed at the cross? Oh, that's rubbish." Oh, you know, but then, like you say, the prairie dog goes down and they come up somewhere else. They're very >> slippery.
>> Yeah.
Uh it's it's that way. I think just about with every bit of Adventist uh theology, they have all these answers they give. They they just pull them out one after another. You you slap one down and they come up with another.
>> Yes.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> You get to the point where you say, "Will this ever end?"
>> Yes. I know. And then they get very offended and start attacking you personally. Um >> Oh, yeah. Yeah.
>> Attack the messenger.
>> Yes. Yes. They attack the messenger.
Um, I had Jillian Ford on the show not that long ago and and I said, "Do you did Dez ever look at that concept of well this key doctrine that he has disputed and and almost conclusively revealed is in error unbiblical and totally wrong." You know, the J, the sanctuary doctrine, the 2,300 days. He's worked He worked very hard at proving that conclusively to be in error.
I I said to her then, but why did he still seem to support Ellen when to me that doctrine is supported by Ellen's claim that God told her it was accurate.
So if some if to me if a person's is just being inspirational like CS Lewis, great. Um, but but if they are claiming that God told them a specific message that you then go ahead and prove to be unbiblical, isn't there a a next step that follows? And and she um you know, she came up with an answer that that I thought at the time was was a good answer. Um but you know, that that was then. Now, when I look at these progressive gospel adventists, I I think how do you and you might be right. It might just be all about the money and the prestige and the hierarchy and the camaraderie, but it it just seems to be me that if you realized how obvious it is that if a person says, "God told me this is accurate and then you go ahead and prove how inaccurate it is," how can you not then go the next step and say, "Oh, that means that was a false prophecy."
>> That's right. I just >> the Bible the Bible is very specific about that >> and and more than that it also says because the they the white estate will say that Ellen White gave her own interpretation of a prophecy.
>> Yeah.
>> And the Bible says that I think it's in Jeremiah that if a prophet gives his own interpretation of a prophecy that he is a false prophet.
>> So it ties in with what you're saying.
Yeah. And and then when you you confront them with that, I I had um someone the other day, it might have been Warren Trenched or Don McAdams go into an elaborate way of explaining that the, you know, the Isaiah, the Jeremiah, the Pauline text that points out what a false prophet is, uh might be contextual and blah blah blah. And I and I just thought, do they do they think I'm stupid? Like it it is clear that if you present material, so here's Ellen White. You come along and you prove that a claim she made is in error and unbiblical, but her claim is that God told her, whispered in her ear directly, that in fact it wasn't error and it was the truth. So so much so that it had to become the number one plan of salvation.
So these guys that prove her wrong and then don't go and throw her out be I I don't know why they hold her still in in play.
>> Why is it that Adventism is constantly saying the Bible doesn't mean what it plainly says? It happens all the time with it.
Yeah.
>> Um, oh, she doesn't it doesn't mean what it says there. It was supposed to mean such and such, you know.
>> Yeah.
>> But the irony is they've just revealed that the Bible is that they've revealed that Ellen's claim is wrong. That's what gets me the most. I if if they were like the traditional Adventists that do what you're saying, they just pick and choose and they say this says this and oh, you got it wrong. that was contextual and this means that but they sit us down release books over the years over the last 40 years that reveal Ellen White's errors how unbiblical they are um you know you just read some of Dez Ford's material and you go whoa that conclusively proves that Ellen White's take on the investigative judgment the 23 day 100 days is wrong so so they prove it and then they still say, "Oh, but you know, what a wonderful lady. She pointed me to God."
>> Yeah. I that's the you know that it feels like they're so close to becoming a Wall of Slatterie and leaving the church, but they stay and and since the early 80s, I've observed that over and over and over and over again.
>> I have a question.
>> Yeah. Go ahead, >> Peter. I have a question for you. I'm I'm really curious about this. I've made the acquaintance of a young man out in California who tells me that his church basically has 7th day Adventists, but they have basically dropped all church requirements.
The unclean meats out the window, the alcohol out the window, sabotizing, you go to church and that's basically it. And you can just go right through the list. They have uh the church basic and they detests Ellen White he says and the investigative judgment is ancient history to them. Is this a modern phenomenon or is do you could you what what is your reaction to that?
>> Well um I I find these guys very deluded.
They believe that they can create uh a church like I'm not talking about a church big movement. I'm talking about a literal place of worship >> that discounts all the core doctrines of the Adventist church and they they they say it with this great sense of see we're we're we're progressive. We're following the Bible. But my my thought to them and I've said to many of them will come on the show and share with us these new beliefs and what beliefs you have jettisoned and they won't come on the show. So they're very keen to chat to you behind the scenes of how their particular church is is going well. Um, you know, there's a guy, I think it's Tim Gillespie, that was very involved with um the one project and he is involved with a church somewhere there in California called Crosswalk, I think, or he's left it now, but he was involved with it. I don't know if that's the church you're referring to, but there are churches around my area here in Australia, New South Wales, that count themselves as very liberal. I sang in one the other week. Oh, we don't even talk about Ellen White. you know, young people don't care about that. But I say to them, downstream, uh, you are downstream of some pretty incredible doctrines and claims made by Ellen White and the founders and the the leadership itself.
You cannot um be swept away in some way or another because you are downstream of this this kind of belief. And so I feel that they are naive and deluded. And time and time again these guys eventually get squeezed out, shut down, marginalized and they either leave or they stay with very little influence. And I feel sorry for the kids who have been given this false hope of things are changing. You know, I was told that when I was 16. Things are changing. It's all changing. It's going to change. And here we are, you know, decades later. Uh it hasn't changed.
It's not looking like changing anytime soon. And this wonderful church little movement that they've got some in some little corner of the Adventist conference somewhere, they they won't come on the on a public forum and share what it is that they believe because they know they will get sanctioned um or shut down by leadership. So it's a very it's a very >> Yeah, >> it's it's again cha chasing the prairie dogs down the hall.
>> Exactly. Yeah. But they do think they do really think like I I I'm not I don't know if you were talking about crosswalks or not but there's another one there's a crosswalks in Melbourne that's kind of a connected with them and and they they b and I was involved with a similar church in my 30 years of music ministry here in New South Wales and we were very boldly you know heading out into this place of Jesus first and music was a bit more contemporary and way more the Adventist kind of teachings of the Sabbath were more about enjoying the Sabbath, not as a salvational issue, not keeping it in in that way. Um, but that was eventually squashed. And then along comes the One Project a few years later and Bill Johnson supporting it as if it's this wonderful change and that got that got squashed. And then comes Tim who was involved with the one project starts crosswalks or is involved with it and you know and then that's here in Australia now is the next big thing and that's going to change everything. I'm just shocked at the naivity that these guys don't look back over probably 90 plus years of people trying to infuse some kind of progressive Adventism into the church and it failing disastrously.
It's false hope that that the leaders and scholars and academics that write books like this, it's the false hope that they continue to give that encourages these young people to just keep on going. And sure, if you're a cultural adventist and you've got a great little church somewhere and you've got your hay stacks and your potluck and your happy Sabbath and your nice songs, enjoy it. Great. But don't think that what you're building is actually Adventism. because as soon as Adventist leadership hears about it, you're going to be squashed.
>> Okay, >> that's my >> Well, I appreciate your input on that.
That's interesting. I'll pass it on to him.
>> Yeah, I tell him to come on the show because you'll find that you'll find that he won't because young pastors lose their jobs if they come on social media platforms. One guy, Christopher Mindanaau, was on a social media platform. He was asked, "What do you see? What do you believe um the forgotten oh the seal of God is and Paul teaches that the seal of God is the Holy Spirit it's generally accepted across the whole Christian uh realm >> uh and he Adventists don't believe that they believe it is the Sabbath the seal of God is that's correct >> so he answered the Holy Spirit >> and within weeks he his he was gone from his Oh, no kidding.
>> Yeah. So, you this guy you're talking about, just say to him, go on Pete's show and share this wonderful new church you've started. Is Is it a company or is it actually a legitimate recognized Adventist church?
>> Well, he's just a member. Uh it's just a a church.
>> Yeah.
>> Um >> well, this is what they >> I don't want to give him give his name out or anything.
>> No, no, no. You don't have to do that.
But but a lot of these guys just because their local church is appears to be not talking about Ellen and appears to be mainly about the Bible and Jesus, they don't realize that their leadership won't speak publicly about this kind of um new Adventism that they have. Uh because as soon as they do, they will be in trouble. Guaranteed. Did you ever have you ever discussed how many people were forced out of a denominational employee in the early 80s?
>> Yes. Yes. In fact, um Harry Ballas has wrote a book about it and he studied and interviewed many pastors.
>> Um it's very hard to get book and it's very expensive if you do find it. just mental blank on what it's called, but if you look up Harry Ball SDA pastors 80s, you you'll come across it. But there there is evidence to suggest that in the States there was around 200 pastors and here in Australia it was about the same.
So there's >> I think a lot more than that. I think it's probably closer thousand.
>> I would 100% agree. Yeah, the these are just kind of known and just think about their partners, their families, their kids. Some of these guys were just kicked out, marginalized, suppressed, you know, suddenly found themselves with little jobs in the, you know, back of nowhere. Um, I I've literally had SPD, that's the South Pacific Division leaders talk to me in the last few months when I've said, "Come on the show and and share your gospel version of the sanctuary doctrine." I love it. They've talked to me behind the scenes about what it is. come on the show and share it. I'd lose my job. Both of them have said I would lose my job.
>> Wow. Yeah.
>> And that's the reality. This guy that you speak of with his nice comfortable churches that looks like it's going the gospel path, it's it's not it's a it's an exception that proves the rule. And just chat with him. I'm not angry or upset with him.
I'm sounding passionate, but I'm just being clear. tell him to tell talk to one of his ministers to come on my show.
They won't. And if they do, they'll be in trouble.
Look, I mean, look at these guys. If anybody if anybody can present the gospel version of Ellen White and Adventism, these are the guys that can. This is George Knight, Denny 14, Ron Greyel, um Butler, McAdams, Valentine. If these guys can't publicly share their gospel message without getting, you know, deleted. Who can?
>> Oh dear.
>> Ron gave a presentation years ago. He was defending Ellen White. That was in Pennsylvania.
And uh a truck driver made a fool of him.
Oh, >> he asked how how much did she copy? And he said, "Well, maybe upwards of 50%."
The guy said, "That much, huh?
>> Yeah."
>> And Greybel had nothing to say.
>> Yeah. Did you ever read the Fred Veltman report, the eight-year study that seemed a bit obtuse, but clearly show what report? I didn't hear >> the Fred Veltman. Fred Veltman's study of desire of ages.
I've seen a a short copy of it, a short version of it.
And so, yes, we uh Fred Velman, we actually had uh him come out to our place for dinner one night.
>> Wow.
>> A very nice fellow, very intelligent man.
>> Yes. Yeah.
>> And and I felt like um he probably was quite upset with the results of his report, but um I think it's over two two and a half thousand pages and he wrote a 2 and a half page kind of conclusion and and the church itself wrote a one paragraph conclusion, something along the lines of, "Oh, we're so relieved that only 2% of the writings were verbatim." And I'm thinking, well, that that's pretty big anyway. But it clearly was way more than that. But he seemed to be desperately trying to not throw Ellen White out, but obviously was an honorable man. And if you read between the lines in that report, he he truly um revealed so much more.
>> Well, he did. He had revealed a lot that they didn't want revealed. That's for sure. I interviewed Warren Trenched the other day, um, who I wish was in my former legends series, but he's still a Seventh Day Adventist. He wrote, um, this book, The Desire of Ages, and its sources, uh, condensed edition of the Fred Melt, Fred Veltman Project. Um, and that, if anyone wants to look at what we're just talking about now, is the best book to to go to to find out about what Fred Velman discovered.
You may be uh have realized as we talked that I left Adventism in 1984.
>> Yeah.
>> And very little to do with it except of course I observe things and also books.
I have >> the daily book I mentioned. In fact, I have two of his books >> and uh >> Kingdom of the Cults. I actually have two copies of it.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh just a lot of books like that. So I do keep on reading. However, it's not like I'm sitting there conversing with Adventists every day.
>> Yes. Yes. Yes. But um and and in some ways, you know, like I I was aware of this kind of content, you know, 20 years younger than you. But um in the 80s it was becoming apparent to me that, you know, things weren't adding up. And then the 90s, early 90s, I began reading a lot of the content that these guys that I've held up before produced. Um, and I guess in 1994 there was a moment in for me where I was now an adult awake and and I was very concerned about this kind of material.
But in 1994, there was no access to books like yours. there was no access to the the content on YouTube and and so we kind of believed what we were told by our leadership that things were changing and hang in there and but I I wish I'd had the information. I wish I'd been able to look deeper like you did. Um and that that your 1984 was my 1994.
Um, not that I'm regretting, you know, life is life and it unfolds, but there must have been an element of freedom that you had that that was almost palpable. I'm sure when you left you you managed to find other people that were following a more um biblically based kind of church community.
>> Tell us a little bit tell us a little bit about that journey.
>> Well, um, Carol and I looked at various churches.
We didn't find any that we liked and we just kind of let it go. I mean, I always called myself a Christian, a justification by faith Christian.
However, I couldn't find a church. Well, years went by and uh some people invited me to a Church of Christ service and uh so I went and I really liked it. Now, there they were noninstrumental.
They and but I really was impressed with the service.
>> And so I came again to the church. This was in Spearfish, South Dakota. And u the minister came up, introduced himself. He was very perceptive man. He realized I was very suspicious. I'd had a lot of bad experiences with uh various ministers.
But he suggested that we get together for coffee. Yeah, that's right. Coffee, not not post some coffee. And so we met at a coffee house.
And what really impressed me was that uh I would ask him a question. Other ministers had said, "Well, we believe."
And then they'd go on what they believed and then they'd maybe try to justify with the Bible verse. This minister would say, "Well, let's see what the Bible says." and he turns to the Bible text and I sit there and say, 'Well, I agree with that.
>> And well, I've got to tell you about my baptism. I think you'll enjoy the story.
>> Yeah.
>> I had been baptized as a Seventh Day Adventist, but I realized that was being baptized into Seventh Day Adventism.
>> Yes.
>> You know, it wasn't things such as no coffee, no alcohol, uh believe in the spirit of prophecy.
You know what I'm talking about. They have a long list of those. But so I told him one day I said,"I have done a lot of thinking. I think I should be rebaptized into Christianity."
He said, 'Why not right now? Well, this was a Tuesday morning in Spearfish, South Dakota. There was spitting snow.
The temperature was 4°. There was wind.
And I got this visual picture of breaking a hole in the ice in the local river. And fortunately, he recognized the look of terror on my face.
and he said, "Oh, no. It's indoors and we keep it at 96 degrees." Oh, okay. I went home, got a change of clothes, went over there and was rebaptized and it was a very meaningful experience and I'm very happy about it.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And and you've remained in that particular denomination, haven't you?
>> Absolutely. Very active in it.
>> Tell us a little bit about it. What's it called again? Church of Christ.
>> Church of Christ. I would say very I would call well they're called restorationists. What they've tried to do is go back to what uh the pent the early church was were like. I've often said if Paul if you put Paul into a modern set of clothing and took him to one of their services and g furnished him a translator, he'd be pretty happy with what he saw there.
>> Right. uh very very active with um you know a lot of the the bi the I'm sorry this the sermons are full of Bible verses one after another. It isn't uh just one and then a long exposition.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh I'm I'm very happy with it. I think it's a good choice >> because they're aiming to restore the first century New Testament church, aren't they?
>> That's right. that there. That's what they're aiming for.
>> Oh, I will have to tell you, my church is instrumental, Peter. So, your guitar would be okay.
>> When I walked in the first time, I'll tell you, I about fell over when I saw the up front.
>> Well, it's it's interesting because their core message is about the gospel.
And when progressive Adventists and gospel liberal Adventists try and convince others that they are about the gospel, they present contemporary music, eating meat, you know, wear a bit more less, you know, be a bit more casual.
They present all these standards, but they don't change the bedrock of the church's theology. So they they still they're still downstream of of a false gospel. And so they can they can pretty it up with as much h you know haystacks and and amazing music as they like but they're still downstream of heretical doctrine.
>> Well as you said they haven't changed the bedrock.
>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
>> They'll they'll talk about coffee and and you know being a bit more liberal with the Sabbath. But my challenge to anyone that thinks that they are involved with one of these liberal kind of uh Adventist churches, anyone watching, I challenge you to ask your pastor to come on the show and I will ask him about his more liberal gospel-based church. And he won't. He will be too scared. Uh he will lose his job. Yeah.
>> Hey, I just want to dip back. Uh, and I know that you're going to head off soon.
Um, you mentioned you're 85 and I look, I just I just love having you on the show. I loved our last conversation. Uh, I wish I wish I could get you back on more and more, but but I'm pretty sure this is probably going to be one of the last times you you speak with us on SDA Q&A. So, I'm trying to get as much as I can, but our main focus is to actually celebrate you today and to pay tribute to you and to thank you very much for your contribution as a former admin.
>> Enormous pleasure >> and and I encourage people to to go ahead and um see if you can buy this out of print book.
>> It's on e it's on eBay. I know it is.
>> Yes, I've seen it on eBay. Um, in fact, I ordered a copy. I've got one here somewhere, but I ordered another copy the other day from eBay. Um, there was only two or three left, but it was only it was here in Australia and there was it was only about maybe 25 $30, something like that. But, um, I want to buy up as many as I can. And as and and as we chatted before, we're maybe going to be able to do some kind of audio book version of it. Um >> I think that's terrific idea and you have permission.
>> Oh, brilliant. That is exciting. Um yes.
Well, I will get on to that. Um and I'm I'm hoping that we can work out whatever percentage goes to your family or you or your legacy. Um these days you can set that up as an automatic split.
So, so I'll chat to you about a bank account your end, what kind of percentage split you'd like and >> Oh, I I you go ahead. That's fine. I I'm perfectly happy to let you if you do the work. I think you should take the money.
>> Well, I appreciate that and I can assure you that uh any proceeds from it go back into the channel and um >> All right, that's fine.
>> Yeah, >> that's good.
Uh before before you go, can you share a couple of quirky doctrines that you came across that you thought, "Hang on, that is so unbiblical." For example, have you looked into Satan as the scapegoat before? And can you speak on that?
>> I I wouldn't say that. I'm just trying to think. Uh um >> the atonement not finishing at the cross is is a huge >> Well, there's a there's a lot of them that I just make no sense at all. Uh one that absolutely stunned me was uh I was taught that Christ being Michael was generally accepted by Christians.
And uh so of course I believed it. I mean we were told that you know.
>> Yeah. And then after we Carol and I left Adventism, uh, two wonderful people who were cult fighters came to visit us and immediately the lady said, "Uh, Adventism believes that Jesus is Michael the Archangel."
>> Yes.
>> And I looked at her all wideeyed and innocent and said, "Why most Christians believe that?"
>> No, they don't.
>> Yeah.
>> I was absolutely stunned.
>> Yeah. Well, tell us a bit about that because I confronted a pastor about that a few weeks ago and he said, "Oh, what's the big deal?" So, what if some do, some don't? It doesn't make a difference.
Well, I would say that Christians would are going to say, "No. Um, Christ is Christ and Michael is an archangel." And you can't an angel an archangel including is an a created being. Jesus is the creator.
He's not a created being. And uh it's just it's just completely unacceptable to Christians.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, do you have any other thoughts? I I really don't want to let you go. In fact, what what I'm going to do once you go, I'm going to continue playing your interview, that first one of two, I think, with Larry Wessles, and we we'll let you go, but I'm going to just play.
It's only about another 20 minutes. I think it's a 20 I think episode one is about 25 minutes.
>> I I would say there are two things that I came out of Adventism with. One is a feeling of betrayal because I realized that we had been lied to and really stolen from because you know they used those lies to get our money and not to mention our lifestyles.
>> Yeah.
>> That had been they had forced their idea of a lifestyle on us because we had uh believed them. So betrayal is one of the senses and the other was um enlightenment.
Um leaving Adventism to me was like leaving a dark cellar and coming into the beautiful world. It was a thrill. It was an exciting. It was a whole new world.
It was very different from what I had been taught. And uh that's what I tell people today. It's it's just a a much better world.
>> Yeah, boy, those two points are fantastic.
Um Yeah. Wow. Well, look, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for your contribution. Uh again, I just bring up this book. I encourage people to track it down. Um, and this may be the last time we speak on the show together, but if down the track you change your mind and think, "Hey, I wouldn't mind a coffee with Pete and another chat," you let me know because you are welcome uh here anytime. And to all the former Adventists that are watching and are on our channel, uh we just thank you so much for your contribution and uh >> well, God bless you, Peter. Incredible.
>> Been a it's been a tremendous pleasure working with you.
>> It's been wonderful. I I look forward to at the very least uh chatting again offline sometime. And those watching, we've been chatting with Wallace Slatterie, um a man that left the Adventist church in ' 84, released an incredible book um called Are Seventh Day Adventists False Prophets? I'm guessing your answer to that is yes, and uh and today forms uh a part of a new series I'm working on called Former SDA Legends. And this is number one in that series. So if you know anyone that's 70 plus, still alive, has left the Adventist church and has some kind of contribution website, book, uh YouTube channel, please let me know. Uh I wonder, Wallace, if you can contact Carol, maybe she'd like to come on the show next week. I'd love that.
>> I'll ask her.
>> Yeah. Um and we can chat um about that through Messenger. and and those watching tomorrow we have uh a a friend of mine who believes in the flat earth theory. So yeah uh that is going to you might want to join us and watch tomorrow Wallace. That's going to be a very interesting conversation and uh >> I might learn something.
>> Yes, we all might. He's a terrific guy, friend of mine. I've known him for years. Um so I will be looking forward to that conversation tomorrow. And as I said, we're now going to go out with about another 15 minutes of the Larry Wessel show. Uh you can watch with me in the background there if you like. Um but everyone enjoy. We're going back in time to 1991, I believe, >> when Wallace and Carol Slatterie at the time were uh on Larry Wessel's C Answers TV. And Larry seems like an interesting guy as well. So, um, yeah, I've enjoyed many of his shows. Enjoy everybody and, uh, we'll see you all tomorrow. But, yeah, here we go with the last 20 minutes of part one. I encourage you all to go and watch part two. It's an incredible uh, interview with Larry.
Thanks, Wallace.
>> Thank you. Take care.
And let's see if we can get this playing.
Um, wasn't that just so good chatting there with Wallace? So good.
Um, here's that show. We're just going to watch the end of the the rest of it.
It's just a wonderful, wonderful interview. Just working out how to get the sound and it all starting again.
Here we go. Enjoy. There's only about 16 minutes to go.
>> They will unite with Catholicism and spiritualism in the last days to persecute the seventh day advent.
>> They lumped everybody together.
>> They're all part of Babylon.
>> Now, wait. Now, now something's smelly in Denmark here because I've seen different apologetic shows and I've listened to radio commentaries and stuff and I mean, have you ever heard of this radio commentator HM Richards or whatever?
>> I'm a sure tale relative of his.
>> Oh, really?
>> Yes.
>> He's 7th Day Adventist, right?
>> Yes, he is.
>> Now, he HMS Richards >> Junior.
>> Okay. Yeah. I I knew it was something like that. But he's on evangelical Christian radio stations, as far as I can tell, all over the place. And uh but he comes across never saying any of the stuff you're saying. And does he believe what you just told me or is he an exception or can you have an exception?
>> They won't say it. Uh does it sound silly?
>> So So basically this Richard's man really believes all the Baptists, the Methodists, the Lutheran, the Presbyterians, they're all going to hell. And so he's got to sneak in there in a way on on their radio stations and try to get them to join the seventh ad what the denomination believes. Now whether he believes that or not.
>> Okay. So that's what I'm trying to get at now. I'm not trying to condemn the man himself. I'm trying to get at a a situation where >> is it possible for him as an individual and say just taking him as an example.
Could he deny those teachings you just told me about the remnant church and and stuff like that and still be an okay Seventh Day Adventist? If if if somebody didn't know about it, >> as long as people don't know about it, >> so he may personally >> That's correct.
>> disbelieve it, but he can't let anyone know about it.
>> That's correct.
>> Because if he does let someone know about it, then he would be going against the prophetist LG. White, who really promagated that very doctrine that everyone's going to hell outside of their little organization.
>> You raised a point a little bit ago I'd like to comment on, and that is are they a cult or not? And you know, there's a lot of discussion about this. Uh Carol and I have done a good deal of research on this matter because it's very important.
>> Okay. First of all, for our viewers, define what a cult is.
>> That is a difficult one. Um >> there's many, you know, I have my own definitions, but you for almost anyone >> for your mindset.
>> For our mindset, >> you need to define what you mean by a cult. So then people understand.
>> We found three characteristics it seems of uh shall we say pseudo-Christian cults. One is that they have problems with the trinity. for example, pull up the Jehovah's Witnesses who believe that Christ is Michael the Archangel.
>> The second is that u there is always an extra biblical authority whether it's Joseph Smith with the Mormons or the Watchtower for the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mary Baker Eddie.
>> And the third is that there are always problems with the gospel. There's always a tremendous emphasis on works.
Now, if you take the Seventh Day Adventists and hold them up to these three tests, I think you'll be interesting interested and find it very enlightening. In the first place, Seventh Day Adventism also teaches that Christ is Michael. And if there are Seventh Day Adventists watching us today, I'm sure they will be surprised, amazed as Carol and I were, to find that we did not know that Christianity believes that Christ is not Michael. Christ is Christ and Michael is an archangel. One of several mentioned in the Bible.
Uh we also have a statement from Ellen White, the Adventist prophetist I just mentioned that in the last days we have to stand before God without a mediator.
Carol, do you have that statement right there?
>> Would you like to read it? There are a couple of them. says, "Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator.
Their robes must be spotless. Their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of of sprinkling.
Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort, they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. In that fearful time, the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. Great controversy. Page 614.
>> No intercessor.
>> So Christ, you see, is denigrated.
Number one, he is also Michael the Archangel. Number two, in the last days, we can stand before God without a mediator, without Christ.
>> Pull yourself up by your bootstrap bootstraps.
>> The second one I mentioned was the extra biblical authority. I have a lot of statements. They seem to be coming out of the woodwork because I've been researching on this lately where Ellen White is constantly up to the present time being described by Seventh Day Adventist leaders to their own people, not what they're telling the general public or other evangelical leaders.
>> Are you saying there's a double st or almost a dichotomy? They say one thing within 7th day Adventism and they say something else outside of it to put on almost like a PR front.
>> That's correct. They're trying to look like they're okay to the general Christian community, but inside it's this they're all going to hell. They're not part of the remnant. Yeah. A con job.
>> That's fascinating.
>> Here are a couple of them. Today, the Bible only is the cry of some who seek to discredit Mrs. White and undermine the authority of her writings. On the surface, the slogan sounds logical and appealing, but when analyzed carefully, it is seen to be invalid. That is an amazing statement to a Protestant. You have to have something besides the Bible. and he goes on those uh terms.
The second place I have term the statements from the re adventist review which is the official church paper describing Ellen White as the only infallible commentator on the Bible and the final court of appeal. In other words, it is not the Bible that is the final court of appeal. You go to Ellen White, the spirit of prophecy. And here's another ter statement by a former president of the Adventist General Conference. The spirit of prophecy is the only infallible interpreter of Bible principles. I have all kinds of statements that have been coming out along these lines. Ellen White is the infallible interpreter of the Bible according to Adventism. That means that she is the Adventist pope. Exactly what Adventism does not want the world to want to understand.
>> Not once has Adventism ever gone against the teachings of Ellen White. Adventists will stand or die on her principles.
Well, if you get rid of Ellen G. White, it seems like the whole church collapses. I mean, you got nothing left.
She is the cornerstone. It is not Christ. It is Ellen White.
>> The last one I mention is uh I started mentioning is the problems with the gospel. Adventism is very perfectionoriented. I could go on and on, but many of the statements uh that Ellen White gives. Would you like me to give some?
>> I have some horrifying statements that Ellen White gave.
>> Listen to some of these statements.
These are from Ellen White. Christ gave his life that man should have another trial. He did not die on the cross to abolish the law of God, but to secure for man a second probation. Get that? He didn't die or he he died so that man could have another probation. This one was written to her own son. Can you imagine the effect on a child? The Lord loves those little children who do right and he has promised that they shall be in his kingdom. But wicked, naughty children God does not love.
When you feels tempted to speak impatient and fretful, remember that the Lord sees you and will not love you if you do wrong. I wouldn't dare teach my child that God does not love him at certain times.
>> Yeah. It's almost like a conditional love. God will completely >> He'll kill you with an axe if you do something wrong one moment or he'll patch on the head if you you know you act like a a good hound dog doing it his master's wishes.
>> Here are some others. Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression.
That ties in with the statement Carol read where we must stand before God in the last judgment without a mediator.
>> It works.
>> Here's which works. Here's another. In order to let Jesus into our hearts, we must stop sinning. Did you hear that?
>> First you stop sinning, then you let Jesus into your hearts.
>> It has that reversed.
>> And here's another one. The last one I'm going to give. Christ died to make it possible for you to cease to sin. Now, she does come across with some beautiful gospel statements too, which I won't read. They're there. But you can see the confusion it causes in Adventism when you have all these work statements which the right wing of Adventism seizes upon with all these works and all these things you must do >> versus the left wing which would be much more close to the evangelical Christianity.
>> It's hard to be a happy Christian with all those >> guilt producing things hanging over your head. Looks like sheer confusion. And I mean, if you're a Seventh Day Adventist, you got these conflicting statements about works and and those beautiful statements that you were talking about she's made that sound like true gospel messages.
>> Well, she recognized there was confusion. Listen to this statement.
There is not at one in 100 who understands for himself the Bible truth on this subject, justification by faith that is so necessary to our present and eternal welfare. I wonder why there's confusion in Seventh Day Adventist ranks.
those statements alone should >> right I mean contradictory and of course in your book itself there which you were quoting you've got endless contradictions uh between her and the Bible uh she contradicts her own writings and point blank uh confusion on on all kinds of major doctrines and and things that uh and al also the exclusivism we're talking about how they think they're the only ones that are the remnant church and everyone everyone else is is is going to be damned.
>> I pointed out at the beginning of my statements that the the three marks it seems of a pseudo-Christian cult are problems with the Trinity, >> problems with an extra extra biblical authority and problems with the gospel.
I I have just read statements that are enough to cause confusion all the way through with Adventism.
>> Now, I'd like to We've got about five minutes left here in the show. I'd like to bring up this chart and uh and uh hit on this point that you were making here at the on the gospel message and uh basically about another gospel. We have 2 Corinthians 11:es 3 and 4. It says, "But I fear less by any means as the serpent begal Eve through his subtlety.
So your mind should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which we which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. In other words, you know, someone can come preaching something completely false and y'all put up with it easily enough. And that's that's appalling. Uh but here's here's the thing. We've got something here in 2 Corinthians 11. It says another Jesus.
So apparently people can preach another Jesus other than the one that's expounded in the scripture. They can preach another spirit and another gospel. Now just hypothetically, you know, we know you're talking about how they're saying Jesus was the Archangel Michael.
>> Uh and and she's called a spirit of prophecy and and speaks with the spirit that uh I think it'd be obvious to anyone if they do enough research where the spirit's coming from. But anyway, uh let's say hypothetically for a minute that they had the true Jesus. They believe the Trinity, let's say, and they had the right Jesus. That's all right.
But let's say they've got the truth, the right spirit. Hard to believe. I'm going hypothetical here, but uh but still, if they were right here, check. And they were right here, check. But they hit this with another gospel, a different gospel, they're still going to be in super bad shape.
>> Isn't it interesting? Adventism fails all three counts.
>> Exactly. Exactly. Because we go to Galatians 1 6-9, which I think I have right here, the divine curse. Galatians 1 6-9. It says, "I marvel that you are so so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel, which is not another, but there be some that trouble you and will pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which ye have preached or we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so I say now again, now he's putting this in writing and he's writing it twice. I think for emphasis, wouldn't you think? If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Can't be much plainer than that.
>> Yeah. Which you get into any Greek study and stuff, uh, you you find that this is the strongest word anathema of damnation. Come, let him be damned to hell. It's about what he's he's saying.
And he's going after these Judaizers who are just talking about circumcision.
Now, if you're adding all these other things like you were mentioning, it can get very serious there. And basically going back to my original chart here, I just wanted to say uh about another gospel uh in this works righteousness you were mentioning from all those quotes from Ellen G. White. We've got Galatians 2:21. I do not frustrate the grace of God. For if righteousness come by the law and keeping of Sabbath, lawkeeping, all dietary laws, all that kind of stuff you're mentioning, then Christ is dead in vain. Now, we've got about a minute to go, but I think uh for all intents and purposes, based on the quotes, the things we've we've talked about that it's safe to say 7th day Adventism falls easily in line in the train of the kingdom of the cults.
>> I agree completely.
>> Now, with a few minutes a few seconds left, uh take a few seconds and speak from the heart to any Seventh Day Adventists that may be watching. uh 7th the Adventist believer I there's so much to say to you but let me say state three things that you should have no difficulty understanding or I'd like you to start working with number one Jesus is Jesus the Lord he is not Michael the archangel that is has nothing to do with him uh he is our mediator there is no salvation outside of him second we teach solo scripture only the Bible as far as teaching of doctrine instruction and so forth not prima as 7th adventism does that it is merely the primary source.
There is no other source of doctrine and training. Third, the gospel is very plain. Jesus died for our sins. We are saved through our acceptance of him.
Life is not a struggle going on battling trying to overcome. It is simply living the converted life and letting the Holy Spirit work within us.
uh the fruit the fruits that come from us are beautiful because they are the fruits of the Holy Spirit. That is sanctification.
In other words, there is salvation through Jesus. Praise God. And thank goodness there is. We don't need a latter-day prophet like Ellen G. White.
We've been given the word of God. It's in the Bible. And the Holy Spirit of God himself testifies to the validity of of Christ as our savior and his shed blood on the cross for our salvation. put your trust in that Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible. Well, thank you for uh we'll leave it there.
And um yeah, really want to thank Wallace Slatterie for being on the show today. Our first in a series I'm hoping to present, former SDA legends series.
And I can think of lots of other names.
Need to be 70 plus former Adventist preferably name off the rolls. Um, still living and have released some kind of book or resource, website, uh, YouTube channel, something that we can point people to. But I really want to honor and pay tribute to former Adventists who have really um put in a lot of work and effort in helping to um provide resources and insights and a light on the path for those who are thinking about leaving the Adventist church or for those who have. This is not attacking the Adventist church. Uh, I'm all about asking questions, stirring the pot to stimulate engagement and thought. If you're an Adventist and you're you've decided to remain one, good on you. And um, come on the show and share your journey. So, if you know anybody that um, fits that that description that I mentioned, uh, please let me know and I will reach out to them. Uh, I have asked Wallace to uh ask Carol on the show next week. So, that will be fantastic. Uh, don't forget tomorrow we've got a flatearther on the show and I'm looking forward to chatting with him.
And I just wanted to bring up something that Adrian had just mentioned.
you you can find Wallace's book on it's at it's something archives if you search and and you'll see archives written there somewhere um you can find the the whole book there available and as Wallace said he's given me permission to release it as an audio book so um I'm going to get on to that as well. Thanks for watching everybody.
you're awesome and I look forward to catching up with you all next day, tomorrow, same time.
And um we'll chat then. See you later.
Hey.
Related Videos
BSA Goldstar - I gave up! And why animals beat humans!
thebingleywheeler
102 views•2026-05-31
The 'Islamic dilemma': Quran tells Christians to judge by the Gospel
canceledkings
1K views•2026-05-29
3 Dreams That Changed Philosophy Forever
mommyplus24
731 views•2026-05-31
Seneca - Escape The Crowd, Find Your Inner Peace!
realfreewisdom
114 views•2026-05-29
Scholar Explains: WHAT IS A GNOSTIC?
fightbackpodcast
965 views•2026-05-31
Fulton Sheen: A Mente Tenta se Manter Jovem para não Sofrer com os Impactos do Tempo
SantoCotidiano-port
673 views•2026-05-29
Why Pure HEDONISM Is IRRATIONAL
qnaline
12K views•2026-05-31
When They Ignore You, Do This Instead | Stoicism
ZenithWisdom-e3k
615 views•2026-05-31
