The traumas suffered by people who leave Orthodox Judaism | Yossi David

Ajouté : 2026-06-02

[00:00:00]So my my parents came to Israel or their parents came to Israel from the Arab world from Tunis and Iran. So they weren't actually ready. There wasn'ticing communities there. But in the 70s, end of the 70s, beginning of the 80s, there was a big movement of transition from being this kind of misrai traditional Jews to being ultra orthodox and they were part of it. So they converted to ultraorthodoxy. if you want to to call it this way. And I'm the the first son, the eldest to 15 siblings.

[00:00:36]>> Really?

[00:00:36]>> Yeah.

[00:00:37]>> We're also 15. I'm also one of 15.

[00:00:40]>> Okay.

[00:00:40]>> But I'm the fifth.

[00:00:41]>> No, I'm the first.

[00:00:42]>> Hello and welcome or welcome back to this channel. My name is Freda Visel and here I explore topics related to Judaism, insular religious communities, staying or leaving in those communities and all the adjacent issues of belonging, meaning making faith and so on. Lots of fascinating stuff. Today I will be speaking with Dr. Yasi David.

[00:01:05]His recent research paper co-authored with Yehudis Keller explored how leaving highcost religion can mirror the psychological challenges of migration.

[00:01:17]This is an interesting topic and I wanted to discuss it in depth as well as some other of Dr. David's works. Dr. Curiosity. David is a senior lecturer in the department of communication studies and the head of the lab for communication and social bias which stands for beliefs, ideologies, effect and stereotypes research at Bengurian University of the Negv. Very interesting. Before we begin, I want to take a moment to thank those of you who are channel members and help make this work possible. I publish videos early for channel members, but all videos later get published to all. I appreciate all of you members, subscribers, and common participants for helping make this work possible. Thanks. Thank you, Dr. David. And thank you so much for agreeing to do this. Did I mispronounce your last name?

[00:02:11]>> No, just in Hebrew you say Davidid and not David, but I used to it. So, no rules.

[00:02:17]>> Okay. All right.

[00:02:18]Usually I ask in advance and just when I started I realized I didn't ask you. Do I call you Dr. David?

[00:02:24]>> No, you'll see it's fine. No.

[00:02:26]>> Okay. All right. Thank you. So, you want to explain uh maybe what this paper is all about, what the findings and the the research was.

[00:02:39]So this paper is part of a larger research project which I'm interested in understanding the processes that people who left the Orthodox community are are experiencing specifically related to media but not always. So I have some kind of media bias, my own bias to media research and the role of media and communication in these kind of processes. But in general I want to understand how people live, why, in which conditions and how they can integrate better into the the society that they choose the Israeli society, the American society, any other nonadi society. And this paper is specifically about the psychological challenges that uh people who disaffiliated who left the Orthodox community are experiencing.

[00:03:37]And one thing that we notice very vividly it's that it's very similar to people who migrant from different communities in the level of mainly anxiety and depressions.

[00:03:55]There is a good news that after a while it get better but in general the process it's very much like uh migration.

[00:04:06]Now I don't know how the discourse in the states about this but at least in Israel there is um at least 10 maybe 20 years of debate if people who left the Orthodox community should be recognized as immigrants as and get some kind of support.

[00:04:28]It's not a mainstream debate, but it exists within the community and also in some of the welfare groups in the Israeli societ welfare organizations, some leftist parties. So and and also many of us felt like we migrant to a different community because despite that many times you just cross one street like in Jerusalem you cross Jaffa street and you become from ultraorthodox to nonorthodox at least the time that I left but still you feel like you are in a totally different world you have a different you need to use a different language it's a different Hebrew we call it Hebrew in in Hebrew it's and we call it like of people because it's not it's the same words and the same maybe letters but it's with a different meaning especially to modern issues to some kind of phrases social phrases dogs and all of this kind of stuff that are very hard to understand.

[00:05:48]So language is just one barrier. We for example as ultraorthodox don't be educated to walk as men we're supposed to learn which is really weird when you leave and then you are oh as men I need to walk what this mean maybe today it's easier because of some kind of access through communication channels but 25 years ago when I left it was like I actually was surprised to to understand a bit before I have that this is one of the first thing I need to do when I'm leaving and also going to the military service for for example or understanding television or fiction you know you have a fiction movies differentiating between fiction and documentary it's very hard for people who just left I don't know how this was for you but I really remember my first watching my first clearly fiction movies and try to convince myself that this is fiction and not real and try to understand this kind of emotions or that in this movie is intrigued in me.

[00:07:13]So it took me >> which movies >> one of the first one was uh it's name what was it? It was Will Smith and another one black >> man. No >> back to black or >> no no no it was >> no >> it was launching the end of the 90s beginning of the because I left in 2000.

[00:07:35]So it was a little bit before it was ah men in black.

[00:07:39]>> Men in black. Oh yes >> the first one. So there's no reason to assume that this is real. It's really like clear that it's not. And I really remember watching it and need to explain to myself like cognitively understand that this is not we it's not something that happened.

[00:08:00]>> Yeah. Yeah. I I remember I have a close acquaintance who was in in the process of of leaving or very newly uh having left and they were very into I think it was like CSI, you know, one of those extended crime shows where you have a lot a lot of seasons and episodes and they were very into it and they were constantly watching it and we were discussing it and it was many many many episodes into their watch watching marathon that I realized they believed it was real, that it was real documenting of crimes that happened. And I I said, you know, this is this is not real. You realize this is made up. And it it totally like the look on their face, it was heartbreaking because it was like what's real and what's not real anymore after you learned that.

[00:08:55]>> Yeah. And today we can see that many people have the problem of recognizing deep fake for example or stuff that can be used to mimic the reality. But if you are not educated to even identify regular forms of fiction like some kind of standard form like fiction movies.

[00:09:18]It's very hard to identify other kind of fiction or fictive photos. So yeah, this is part of the >> Yeah, >> it's very interesting that you bring up the AI very interesting parallel because right now I struggle a lot with recognizing what's AI. Like I saw a video on Instagram of a woman walking in the park with like 10 cats in sacks on her and she says to someone who says, "Can I film you?" And she says, "Sure, go ahead. It's actually not so hard to wrangle them into the sacks." And it sounds so real that I was like, "Wow, this is amazing. This woman is walking with her 10 cats outside and and then I shared it and people said, "This is AI."

[00:10:11]And I felt like such a total dupe, but not only did I feel silly, but also I'm again facing the problem that you articulated, which is the disorienting experience of not knowing what's real and what's not. And it's so frustrating.

[00:10:28]And I think um it's a particular challenge when you enter a new culture from which you don't have the frame of reference of what is made up.

[00:10:38]>> Exactly. And more than this what it's create it's that now if we take your example now you are more suspicious. So every video that you will see you will be much more suspicious. Is it real? Is it fake? And then you will have less beliefs or less trust in publications and information you are get. And then it creates another challenges maybe with videos with cuts less. But if you encounter something that seems like the police like CSI that you mention or science and then you will start questioning every kind of science and really think more let's say conspiratively on some issues and then it can harm wellbeing can harm the way we behave decision making and other kind of so >> wow that's very interesting I actually do find even myself, but this is something a lot of content creators express frustration of is that we get comments saying AI.

[00:11:41]This is AI. I get it sometimes as well.

[00:11:43]I'll put together a video that's footage I shot my voice and I'll get a comment saying AI and it's like how can you how can you deny my reality like this? It's so clear that I lived this footage and yet you state it with such authority.

[00:12:00]It's becoming a really big issue for us content creators. I think especially photographers find it so frustrating.

[00:12:08]They they spend hours getting a shot and then they get told that that shot is AI.

[00:12:13]I'm wondering if you can actually we're getting a little sidetracked but this is an area of fascination for me which is how we trust information. Can you talk more about the the mistrust? What's the mechanism of mistrust you find that people have with regards to authoritative information as a result of of not knowing what's real?

[00:12:39]>> Yeah. I think that as people who left the community, we are off track all the time. So, it's a >> I love that. Yeah. We >> we're rolling with it.

[00:12:48]>> Yeah. So in general like I will first like you talk about this kind of blaming that it's AI and not human beings and actually it's something that I noticed that it's more and more often happen in different genres not only for content at least not only for such a content creators also academics that they are creating for example papers they are blamed more and more for using AI in their work and also students and other people. I think that what you experience with this kind of cards and in different kind of events when we encounter something and understand that it's not real, it's make us cognitively more defensive and assuming that everything is guilty until proven otherwise.

[00:13:40]And this is this connect to something in the foundations of my research which is how actually stereotypes guided us to do irrational choice. For example, if I'm interviewing some people for for job and I decided to choose someone because stereotypically it seemed more relevant. So I don't know I am interviewing doctors for like medical doctors and I choose men or white men because it's stereotypically perceived as more relevant to this profession than for women or black women or anything like this then I feel like I made a logical choice but actually I made illogical or it doesn't make any sense to choose someone just because cognitively I think or I believe that this type of person is relevant is better for this job. And I think it's the same here. What happened is when we have a negative kind of feedback on some decision that we made, we become to be more suspicious.

[00:14:53]So if I encounter some text or video footage that I think it's made by AI and I fell for it, next time even if I will see a good photo that seems too good to be true, I will say, "Oh, it's too good to be true. It's definitely AI made. It cannot be." even that if you use a photo from I don't know 10 years ago when there wasn't AI and actually I I am now plan designing our research exactly to to check how suspicious people are and how they can or in which cases when you have a text that is produced 100% by human you still rank it at something that was created by AI or assisted by AI because I think it's a the danger of AI. People are talking about destroy the society.

[00:15:54]People want to create any content and all of this. I don't think it's true because I don't think it can replace at least good like professionals.

[00:16:05]It can maybe replace mediocre sales like people that are in the the the low part of the the profession but not the experts but destroying the trust in content.

[00:16:23]This is the worst outcome because then we won't believe oh we already don't believe politicians so we believe and believe them less. We will we will stop or many more will stop believing science or in medicine or in journalism in documentary in any kind of thing and then what we are left what we have left with just like suspicious in other people and trying to find what is not true or believing that nothing is true.

[00:16:56]>> Yeah. Well, there's a line between cynicism and total gullibility, right?

[00:17:03]>> Yeah, of course. And skepticism also that are central part in in any kind of trust.

[00:17:10]>> But still, we need to believe in science in order to actually accept what scientists said. Yeah, I want to talk about your story later, but as someone who comes from a world where we are told you need to believe in the Torah, you need to take um the word as it is. How do you differentiate that kind of belief from your proposition? We need to believe in science.

[00:17:37]So I struggled with it quite a lot at the beginning when I left because as someone who decided not to be guided by by this kind of rules you must do so do it. I start questioning and asking and one of the thing that made me believe in science or attract to science it's the very basic fact that in science you always question what you find you don't believe blindly and our goal as scientist is to actually disprove our hypothesis we try to find a way to to understand that we were wrong. This is the main goal. Sometimes we found that we're right, but many times we found that we were wrong. So, and and I'm not saying that every scientist is it's doing it and it's always perfect.

[00:18:40]But when the way that you create knowledge, it's based on tools that are very visible. You are not inventing or saying oh I know I saw someone so you need to present the evidence I did it this way and that way and then it's open to the public they can replicate the study they can go and do the same study again and see if it's happened and some in some cases it doesn't and then we can question what led to this kind of differentiation so if one person find that I don't What I found that living in the ultraorthodox community I found that it's similar very similar to migration in some of the psychological factors and then someone else will do one research and someone else will do another research and 10 scholars will say oh it's totally different then my finding it's irrelevant or it's not irrelevant but it's not fact it's not academic fact because this is the way we work in the where we grew up. It wasn't like this. It's the tour because it's the true and the power of the information. It's not what we think or what the reality show us. It's what our rabbis and parents and all this ancient world told us. So no matter what you find, if it's contradicting the reality, it not true. So this for me is the main difference >> but from the perspective of the everyday person not the expert. I saw that you looked into biases around uh information around co 19. So let's take uh the measles outbreak as an example which had a high prevalence among the orthodox ultraorththodox population >> also.

[00:20:45]>> Also in Israel. Yeah.

[00:20:47]>> Yeah. in New York we had a very big story in 2019 around it. Um so I think this is a good example. What's your take on what is uh the right line or a healthy line of trust versus skepticism or or between trust and skepticism for information let's say around official health authorities transmitting advice and guidance. I think first of all a bit of skepticism in everything it's very good. We need some of it. It's helpful.

[00:21:22]But sometimes we forgot to differentiate between skepticism and practice and information that it's based on evidence.

[00:21:34]Now I don't understand in medicine.

[00:21:37]So for me I trust that if the scientific community in like I don't know 90 94% of the scientific community told me that this is something that I need to do I will do it because I am not I'm a just a lay man in medical science. I don't know anything about it. I can read maybe papers and understand a little bit more than every person but I don't know how to do this research and I don't know if it's done correctly or not but because that I understand the rules of creating scientific knowledge for me it's enough if the community as a whole or majority of the community said that this is the way to go I will go and the problem many times is that people are experiencing some kind of mistrust in one doctor or in one medicine or they felt uncomfortable after getting vaccine or something and then they generalize a little bit like the AI video. So they say oh all the doctors are bad all the med medicines are bad. Now it's true there were some scandals in the history but they were scandals because it's not the mainstream. It's not what happened all the time. It's that some kind of outliers that used in wrong ways and we create some kind of processes to reduce the chances it will happen again. To say it will never happen, it's impossible. It's probably will happen again.

[00:23:18]But this kind of let's say challenges happen because or misconduct in every kind of industry happen because there are people there not because of the scientific way like in in totally different field we know about the booing had some problems with some airplanes because they skip some parts in the uh infrastructure of it and two at least two crashed because of it with about 400 people or 350 people died. No one is stopping flying because of it or at least almost no. Most of the people will say, "Oh yeah, they did it but we trust the authorities to take actions to prevent or at least to try to prevent it as much as possible." Now, it's not the first time that some company produced something that wasn't according to to the guidelines and people were harmed by it or even die like in this case. But we are not saying, "Oh, we will stop using it because it's not safe and all the airplanes are unsafe. So, let's I don't know take boats if you want to travel across the Atlantic Ocean, right?" Why?

[00:24:37]Because it's makes we we trust the authorities, we trust the scientists, we trust these companies. So why not trust in other kind of companies despite the challenges and the interest and the skepticism?

[00:24:53]>> I think the issue I have with the example with Boeing is that it's very clear why Boeing would have in its best interest to maximize safety. It stands to gain nothing from uh from from not prioritizing safety.

[00:25:14]Even if they save money by by cutting corners on safety protocols, the amount of negative publicity they get from any crash is just suicidal for their mission. And I think the issue I hear from people who for instance are very skeptical about modern journalism is they look at the entire infrastructure of self governance or self uh self uh what's the word uh uh when you run a oh man >> monitor your you monitor your >> yeah self monitoring yeah I wanted to think of uh the word for >> regulating.

[00:25:58]>> Yeah. Okay. Well, do I'm totally blanking on the word, but but let's say let's say self self-regulating the mechanisms of let's say the big media conglomerates.

[00:26:14]self regulating has perhaps in the view of many people disintegrated as a result of uh advertisers having and stakeholders having too much power and that disrupts the oversight mechanisms and creates incentives towards storytelling in a way that maybe shifts away from self-corrective incentives. Do you understand what I mean by the difference between the two?

[00:26:45]>> Yeah, but it's true. But you know, journalists usually don't kill people if they make. So usually it doesn't lead to to some kind of fatal incident while in other industries it happen. But still if we look on the the way we live today, we live in the arguably probably the best time in human history like I'm not talking there are wars and there are inequalities and there are many problems but our life expens expectancy it's the highest it was ever.

[00:27:24]We have a much better conditions to live. We live in a much better conditions. We have really great food, possibilities of commuting. We have like almost everything. We have leisure. We have time to spend to just do stuff that we love for for enjoyment. It wasn't exist 100 years ago.

[00:27:47]In many countries, we have democratic regimes or one of we feel like we have a lot of freedom. We have a very good life. And all of this it's outcome of some revolutions that happened especially in the western world. If it's a scientific revolution, the technological revolution that that lead or coexists with democracy and also with journalism, with free press central part of creating these nations as strong as they are, it's the free press. where you don't have free press, you don't have democracy, you don't have democratic institute and then you have some kind of segregative power would destroy the society or lead it at least to be less successful, less open, less free without all the thing that we actually enjoy to do and enjoy from. So I believe that this kind of freedom of press it's very important for our own sake like to discover when politician is doing or have some kind of wrong doing and when some company maybe embezzle money or create some product that it's not safe enough to show cut some corners on safety and all of this kind of Now it doesn't mean the journalists are perfect and they do only a good job but one journalist can balance other journalists. There's no one let's say newspaper or one communication infrastructure in all of the country and even if you have you have other countries and it's our responsibility to create as many of them that will criticize or be monitoring each other and balance each other but also in some countries it's depend on the countries but in more of European countries there are like some kind of uh ethical board for journalists that can investigate cases of misconduct and can maybe criticize or force h TV channels or newspaper to publish apologies when they mistreat someone in in probably big cases not just like I don't know they said the time 43 instead of 42 or something something like crucial.

[00:30:38]So, it's possible to regulate and we can. I know that in some countries regulation may sound like something that we don't want, but also in Israel and I'm sure that also in the state it's not really like what people believe should create a better society. But yes, we can create regulations. And also now that we have the fre the the the freedom of creating content like no one is censoring you to criticize any newspaper or any television uh show on misconducting or I don't know if they misrepresent people who left the community. I'm sure that you will hold them accountable and maybe if more and more people will do it in their own topics, it can make the press and the the media landscape better.

[00:31:34]>> Very interesting. You definitely have a very optimistic view and I think it's very interesting to hear especially because there's a lot of conversation in the world now about the end of democracy and I don't want to get into that. We are already so off the dare on this interview. I've never let an interview just roll out of my hands this much, but these are some some really interesting topics. I just want to um like let it let it be, let it breathe. Um, but it's it's interesting because it it it brings me back to the thought of the privilege you and I have of living uh in a different society than we were raised.

[00:32:20]And despite many criticisms I have of contemporary society, I consider myself very fortunate to have been able to make this transition. and it was very necessary for me and my entire work is um made possible by the society I'm in especially as a woman. Um so so I appreciate taking a moment to to reflect on that and be grateful for that and also to return to talking about the transition.

[00:32:51]Yeah, but if you already mention it, I think that we have it just came to my mind now you say >> as people who actually left >> I will say I left the middle ages and move to the current world. H I have the feeling I can understand what will happen if we will go back to these times if we will drop from it. So I'm trying to make it clear how important it is to keep these institutes that make the society that I choose to be part of it.

[00:33:26]So I have the privilege but I also have the duty to maybe remind people who born like this that it's not taken for granted. It can be different.

[00:33:38]>> Yeah, I appreciate that. I feel very similarly about the importance of keeping the healthy line between trust and and skepticism about a society that is self-corrective and is open to criticism. I think that's a very very important thing for me to see a society in which you can criticize the leadership where you can criticize the structures. these these come from where where a past I didn't have these privileges. You want to take us back to um what you were talking about with regards to similar to migration patterns um maybe what the trauma is of of going from one society to another. We we were stuck on talking about fiction versus non-fiction.

[00:34:33]>> Yeah. Yeah. I know it's very interesting stuff and and it's very interesting also I guess the similarities and differences between our experiences as maybe also probably gender wise but also the state Israel and yeah >> I don't know probably there are some you are probably much younger than me so you did it >> no you're 43 44 >> 43 I'm I'm 41 this >> month >> okay >> I have better lighting than Okay.

[00:35:05]>> I did look you up also so I know you're right.

[00:35:08]>> No, no, I'm sure it's part of doing it.

[00:35:11]So, but but if we are talking about like there are maybe two parts to this kind of traumatic experience. One which is not part of the migration.

[00:35:23]Sometimes traumatic experiences push people outside of the community. So part of what led some percentage I won't put a percentage on it but it's not a small percentage of the people who left it's experiencing some kind of traumatic event in the community which led pushed them outside of the community. It can be feeling that I am not eligible to live the way I want. I cannot express myself because I'm a woman or I have not I don't have equal rights because I am I don't know Jew or whatever right it can be also more traumatic than this and the other trauma relate to the migration itself so migration it's a traumatic event so every person who go through this kind of big transition in life the transition embedded in it some traumatic feeling. In our case, in many of the for many who left the ultraorthodox community, they experience some level of disconnection with their family, their friends. Some are very like don't have any kind of relations other they have some kind of relations but they lose maybe the depth of the relation or some members of the family refuse to be in contact with them or at least not like before.

[00:37:04]Sometimes it's related to discussions about the way in which we look like how you dress like this, how you behave like this, how you do this and all that. Sometimes it's relate also to self criticism. We grew up that it's very bad to drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes and now we are doing it. not to mention I don't know many other stuff like relation with the other sex going to party instead of studying for your exam at the university it's a exam at the university it's not even a Torah study that you are obliged to study all day long but still you are feeling like you are not doing what you must do and then it creates some kind of self-laming and other kind of mechanisms that harm the self. So I will say that in a way we educated in um certain box and when we live we left the community but the community or parts of the community left with us.

[00:38:17]So we are Yosi that is not ultraorththodox or is not fared. It's still with some part in it. So he left the community but the community is still in him. And then we need to dismantle at least some or sometimes all of this kind of behavior that will and blaming there are a lot there is a lot of blaming in the the the in the community we came from on every thing you do in every day. So this kind of process of living and starting new life include feeling a lot of guilt and shame and create this kind of traumatic experiences inside us that lead to let's say more challenges to become to be part of the community. Now in addition to this sometimes or in some I guess many cases because we don't really know how to behave in the new world we can also encounters do do some kind of misbehave in some situations but also get harmed.

[00:39:39]So many people at the beginning at the few years after leaving suffering from abuse from others in the society just because they didn't know how to protect themselves. There wasn't anyone who told them don't speak with this stranger or be careful not to go to this garden or to this corner of the city or sometimes they don't have any choice. Some people left and they are just this is the only choice they have. So all of these are traumatic events and processes that existing within this kind of migration and I think it's especially strong because we are not really seeing or it's not visible that we migrant. We just look like random person in the street. So no one think oh he's an immigrant maybe I don't know I will be afraid of them so I won't speak with them or I will help them or there is no or they are today a little bit more but when we left it was much less so you barely have a place as to re-educate yourself to the new society. For frame of reference, can you go over what is generally considered to be the traumas of migration? And we're not talking about migration from ultraorththodoxy or her society or whatever word you want to use larger society.

[00:41:15]>> In general, if someone migrates from I don't know Africa to Israel, >> there is no like list of traumatic events because it's a it's very depend on several factors. One, it's the proximity, the distance between where we came from and where we are going to. So if someone came from a very far physically like far away community, it will be harder. But also culturally, if someone from Africa come to a western country, he has a lot. Even if he came from a country with perfect Englishes like in in some countries in Africa they must speak English in the school.

[00:42:00]because they have very good English or France and they go to France but still there are so many gaps culturally and in in cultural references and in many other aspect there is also for migrants many times they're visible so you can see when someone from Africa is migrating to Israel or to the state or no matter where you can see that he's different so looking different it's always related to traumatic experience Now you can add to this that quite a few of the migr people who migrant from especially global south countries to global north are let's say more vocal and also belong to a non-traditional communities. It can be in different ways like for example sexual minorities but also activist or people who refuse to live in the tradition of their community and they experience traumas as outcome of moving from this community to the from this country to the other country and the last one it's related to the way they are received in the new community. So 10 years ago, many European countries opened their hands for migrants from all over the world from Syria and other countries and then the people who came were integrated much better because they felt welcome and the support system tried to support them.

[00:43:37]But then with the rise of numbers of migrants, some backlash happen and they start to suffer from in the beginning minority groups that start mocking them or attacking them or provoking them. And then the new generation become more isolated and less trust in with less trust in the institution. And then they become less integrated into the new community, the new society. And then now it is against them in order to say oh you see they are not integrated. So there are of course many others also personal traumas and other traumas like people who escape form of war zone are not the same like people who just migrant for economic reasons and all of this but these are the basic let's say traumas that people are pass through this kind of migration.

[00:44:41]>> Interesting. I'm actually very interested in migration trauma and I find myself tuning into it in the larger world probably because I am in my own way also a migrant um and it's an interesting experience because I'm an American woman. So it's like in my heart I am an immigrant from a far away place but in my label and appearance I'm an American woman which is very performance American woman but your experience in your life are quite different. So people cannot they will treat you like just normal American woman even that you are not regular and in this sense it's creates some kind of challenges to >> yeah for me also I feel a kinship to to migrants to immigrants anyone who speaks very broken or almost no English and comes from a different place I feel like oh you and me we're both and they don't see me that way They see me as not one of them.

[00:45:51]>> Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Because they are like look at you and they say oh you look like everyone else. So there is this kind of stereotypical what you spoke about in the beginning stereotypical attribution that when we meet someone we decided oh he's from us or from them.

[00:46:08]And the way we do it it can be again well we how we look. Oh but how we both white we both have glasses. We both seems like okay and it's sometimes it's only there's no really logical logic behind it. So it's not sometimes there is something that we can explain but sometimes it just it seems scary.

[00:46:33]Now it can be connected then to some kind of behavior performance I don't know skin color pronunciation and all of this but sometimes it's not and it's based on our experiences and how we translate them into them.

[00:46:54]>> Yeah. I was called in for jury duty. I don't know how it works in Israel. Do you have jury duty?

[00:46:59]>> No. But I heard you have jury duty.

[00:47:01]>> No. No.

[00:47:02]>> Oh wow.

[00:47:04]>> We have only professional judge judges.

[00:47:07]>> Really?

[00:47:08]>> Yeah.

[00:47:10]>> Oh wow. It was very interesting experience and and I'm sad to hear that you don't have it even though I dreaded jury duty and I was more than happy not to have to serve on a case of some car accident that I was almost going to serve. Um, but a part of what was very eyeopening was there were about 300 people called in that morning and we were all placed in a room and we were made to watch a video presentation by a judge and um it was also interspersed with academics from I think a similar background as you was about cognitive biases and they explained to us that we all have what's called implicit bias. We make assumptions that we are not aware of making. We don't know that we have all of this information in the back of our head and we're very quickly tapping into it when we are confronted with information and that we have to become aware of it in order to be fair judges.

[00:48:14]And it was such an interesting presentation to me because I thought why do we need to tell this so clearly to people like why do so few people understand how many biases they carry around that's something I find surprising people will say I am a totally rational actor when I am afraid of this person it's a thousand% rational and there's nothing more to it but actually you're you're tapping into implicit biases. Maybe it's valid. I'm not saying it's not valid, but we all are guilty of implicit biases. And I find that a lot of people don't want to hear it. Maybe.

[00:48:59]>> Yeah. Of course, it's very scary to think especially for people that perceive themselves as belong to the let's say liberal part of the society.

[00:49:10]They feel very like I blame them that they are not liberal enough which >> I see >> it's quite challenging in my research like in in academic presentations usually academic sphere it's more liberal and people are like very keen to per like stay perceived as very liberal and at the beginning I didn't understand why they feel uncomfortable when I shocked talked about these topics and with the time I learned to use more of u examples that sometimes even are not unhuman so on animals and stuff like this or colors in order to illustrate ideas so that people can listen to me and then I can move to the concrete research and talk about stereotypes and how it's work on all of us and also sharing myself my own identity and how I I am also have these kind of biases all the time. It's not that I'm free of it.

[00:50:12]But understanding that we have certain kind of lack of knowledge of or bias, it's very much helpful to become better aware of it and less use this bias in our decision making than when we don't understand it. So yeah, absolutely it's very important to know. It's very interesting because I don't know for what reason. I really enjoy seeing my own biases. Like I I'll talk about them and maybe I self-inccriminate myself and I probably shouldn't. But I find it such a fascinating aspect of being human that I have these things that don't feel like they're there but are there. Like I consider myself to be so much a modern woman who who has confronted my own gender assumptions. And yet it happened just a few months ago. I was invited by an exacitic man to see his apartment. He won an amazing apartment in the New York City housing lottery. We have this housing lottery where if you win an apartment, you can get very cheap rent on amazing apartment buildings that the rent is usually like many orders of magnitude higher on market level. So he wanted an apartment, he wanted me to see it. I came to visit. I already knew this man, wonderful person. And I knew him to have a very feminine side. And uh he explained to me that when he was a child, all of his male friends would be playing sports and he would be scrapbooking at home. So, uh very much not in the gender construct from the first place and of course I am very open to that. Like I I love that. But I come into his apartment and it is extremely lovingly decorated. And my first question that popped out of my mouth was, "Did your mother help you?" And I was so embarrassed to say that.

[00:52:15]I couldn't believe it came out of my mouth, but it came from some kind of subconscious place where you assume that a man cannot deliver an a an a beautiful apartment decoration that is not rational but is it exists in me and I find it very humbling to to to see these things like I I enjoy seeing them because it it shows me how complex we are as humans.

[00:52:45]Yeah, totally agree. And I think that the problem is that when we feel guilty, many times it's lead us to fight back and try to justify >> unless you are a person that is of the error or cannot stay on track and want to to see thing from the outside. May maybe it's also related to trauma. I don't know uh because >> one of the outcome of trauma it's that we can observe the situation or some situation from outside not to be in it so see see ourself from outside so maybe >> it can be related to it but maybe it's just like that we are this kind of percentage of people who refuse to walk in the main street and we must take the sidewalk and try to find a different way to our goals and if we have to do it then it make us I don't know feeling at home or feeling good to to to see also the failures.

[00:54:04]>> Yeah. I think also for a lot of people there's a lot of of shame and and um guilt around issues like like you said let's say uh racist um subconscious biases. It's understandable why people would be so distraught if they're accused of biases that are racist or if you're a man and you're accused of sexism is very different than if you find it in yourself and you're a woman.

[00:54:36]So I can understand that.

[00:54:38]>> Yeah. But I think that the blaming and the shaming maybe they have a there is some room for them as I don't know some kind of so societal mechanism but sometimes they create more harms than good because instead of being open and ready to learn and get better people are becoming defensive and then they stick to their position. So, how do you I guess you answered this already. I I wonder how you handle the challenge of talking about this without >> Yeah, I I I am still dealing with it.

[00:55:20]But my let's say recent development in in the process was to like when I am talking about stereotypes I use usually color instead of groups like I don't know racial groups or other kind of groups and try to show how we create this kind of cognitive like how cognitively we separate different colors into categories even there's no reason to do it. So how cognitively when we watch series of box with different colors we assign them to different categories and we can do it in different ways. I also show that it doesn't have to be in one way. It depend. It can be based on the color. It can be based on the size. It can be based on different features of what we combine. But also I use >> Can you give examples sorry can you give examples of what we think of with colors? So if I will for example take a series of uh red dots and blue dots and green and black and brown. So usually will people will take the the red and the blue and the green sometimes and put them together and then the black and brown and maybe something more dark in other world. But if they are dots and squares, they will maybe some of them at least split them to dots and squares or other shapes or sizes. It can be small, can be big. So we do it in different kind of ways. But also one example with animals that I use that it's always make people smile. So it's also helpful.

[00:57:17]Many of the western people are afraid of um sharks attacks, right? Especially since the movie Jo.

[00:57:30]>> Yeah.

[00:57:30]>> Right.

[00:57:32]>> Afraid to to get attacked by sharks.

[00:57:34]Even that it's very rarely happen. So the chances to get hit by a car, it's much higher. But still we are afraid of or to be attacked by some dog in the street, it's also much higher. So usually I show that we are very we are afraid or we are aware of the fear of sharks but when we see a dog usually we are not afraid of it. Yeah, even we'll go and try or many of us unless we came from the Rebecca then we are like oh I don't know what will do we'll do with it but like regular people >> will immediately go oh how cute this dog is even that the chance that the dog will attack them it's much higher than the chance that any kind of shark will attack them >> so it's related to this kind of how far are we from this figure that we perceive as intimidating and then we can make some kind of assumption or conclusion on the whole population based on a very few incidents or fiction movie. We come back to this kind of fiction movie that change the way we think and perceive some kind of person. To which degree do you find uh general society to appreciate the power of fiction to shape our our biases and perceptions?

[00:59:00]>> I think that most people it's it's very similar to to implicit bias. Most people believe that they are not influenced by it. But there is uh quite a few scientific evidence that we are influenced maybe subconsciously by fiction. So there is some research about well I forgot the name of the series.

[00:59:28]There was a American series about some uh secret agent to torture some potential terrorist in order to prevent attacks on America. It was like a really famous series. It >> 20 years ago or something. What was his name? Jack Bower. Jack Bower was the name of the >> Oh, >> I forgot the name of the series, but the name of the >> Oh, no. We have to look it up. We have to look up.

[00:59:57]Jack Bower. I feel like it's >> What else is in there?

[01:00:04]>> Jack Bowers. No, I'm not getting it.

[01:00:08]>> Okay. People will tell us in the comments.

[01:00:10]>> Yeah, for sure.

[01:00:11]>> We're two exes acidic people.

[01:00:13]>> Yeah, we have >> exorthodox, whatever.

[01:00:16]>> We we get we get a pass.

[01:00:18]>> Yeah, absolutely. But anyway, there there was I read a paper a few years ago that actually show how American politicians use examples from the series in order to justify the need for torture of prisoners. So some politicians decide, oh, how Jack Bower will figure out whatever if we won't have these tools, we need it in reality.

[01:00:43]So this is like a very clear cut and paste from this kind of world.

[01:00:50]But there are many other ways the ways in which we imagine freedom, democracy, fear of new technologies, the fear of the internet at the end of the 90s, beginning of the 2000 was based on the ways in which it was presented in the cinema, in the fiction cinema. the fear of aliens. There's no real reason to fear of something that you never met and we don't know about it besides fiction movies. So we are in a fear of something that doesn't exist in reality besides of the this kind of fiction movies. So and I'm sure that now also the perception and attitudes toward artificial intelligence or generative artificial intelligence will be also based on this. So people will say oh I maybe subconsciously but I saw in this movie how they use it in order to I don't know surveillance all of us to destroy families to fake documents or stuff like this.

[01:02:03]>> So what is the antidote to making people aware of of how they absorb fiction?

[01:02:10]>> First of all be aware that it exist.

[01:02:14]Second, it's and it's something that unfortunately we don't have. This is uh parents education. So parents that are sitting with their kids and explaining to them this is fiction. It's not true.

[01:02:29]Oh, and this is documentary. So differentiating between the different genres. This is something that definitely can help to make a much more aware younger people. The other part is regulations. So like creating some kind of force to how we make it clear that something it's real or not real. So this is fiction. This is documentary. We have this kind of labels but how we use them, how they are, it's more clear. And the last thing it's my most favorite. I believe in education. So I believe that educating people to be critical to be a little bit scenic with some level of it but not too much of it to take everything in some kind of uh perspective and understand that with all due respect to all of this at the end we need to be critical and critical of not in the term of being because people confuse always between critic criticism and critical. So not criticizing but like being critical on what is it, what is present and how we feel about it.

[01:03:51]Listening to our biases and understanding that if I am alive I am biased. I am necessarily by being I am biased. So, and once we understand it, then we can, let's say, be more open to change and more critical about what we experience.

[01:04:18]>> Yeah, I I really appreciate that. I I feel this strong. This is something I very much agree with. Um, before we wrap up, I I want to tell you I had no idea you come from the Orthodox world.

[01:04:30]>> Oh, really?

[01:04:31]>> I thought it's written in the bio. I insist about it to write in the there is a bio to the paper that I'm formally ultra orthodox. It was like a very Yeah.

[01:04:42]But yeah, no worries. It's It's >> I couldn't I didn't have access to the whole paper, but I scoured the English language internet for your work and all we find is that you were a visiting professor in Germany and what you studied there and um I had no idea and now I'm curious and would love to hear your own background.

[01:05:08]Oh, it's a very long one. But uh know in general if you speak with any academics about this research, you can ask the like version of the paper and we will love to share. So it's usually we know that not everyone have access to this kind of stuff.

[01:05:26]>> Yeah, please send it. Please I would love that.

[01:05:29]>> Yeah, I I will try to remember afterward. If I forget, just remind me and I will send it to you. And in general, I'm still continuing to do like every year we do usually at the first quarter of the year, we do a survey, a new survey with questions to people who left in order to create some more knowledge about it. But this is a story by by its own. So about me, so I grew up in um like uh how I explain this in English.

[01:06:07]Um it took me a while since I spoke about this in English. My parents came to Israel or their parents came to Israel from the Arab world from Tunis and Iran. So they weren't actually ready. There wasn'tic communities there.

[01:06:26]But in the 70s, end of the 70s, beginning of the 80s, there was a big movement of transition from being this kind of misrai traditional Jews to being ultraorthodox and they were part of it.

[01:06:42]So they converted to ultraorthodoxy if you want to to call it this way. H and were mage make to become couples in this community and I'm the their first son the eldest to 15 siblings.

[01:07:04]>> Really?

[01:07:05]>> Yeah.

[01:07:05]>> We're also 15. I'm also 15.

[01:07:08]>> Okay.

[01:07:08]>> But I'm the fifth.

[01:07:10]>> No, I'm the first. Yeah. But in our family, it's the first, the fifth, the sixth, and the 10th left. So I think there is something with this number. So yeah, >> I see. Interesting.

[01:07:24]>> My my critical mind is being a little suspicious about the superstition right now. But yeah, go on. Go on.

[01:07:33]>> I don't know how it's work. But yeah, it's quite even that for the tense you can argue that maybe is the nine. So because they are twins. So but when you >> Wow.

[01:07:44]>> Yeah.

[01:07:45]>> Only one set of twins. Yeah.

[01:07:48]>> How far apart are they age-wise? The kids >> about one year and a little bit. So when I left, I left at the age of 18 and a few months later the 15 daughter >> was boring.

[01:08:05]>> Yeah. Arrived to the world. She was the last one. But yeah, I guess it's >> your whole childhood your mother constantly had babies.

[01:08:15]>> Yeah. And I didn't know to define it until elder age. I didn't know what is it because we didn't have word for it. I don't know. Do you have this here in Israel in many in in most of the for like communities you don't really use the word for pregnancy the Hebrew word for it. It doesn't exist. It's called like a special condition. Something like this. Pregnancy was something that was secret and nlp which was like inappropriate. You know what nivel is?

[01:08:48]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Of course.

[01:08:48]>> So it's like naughty stuff.

[01:08:50]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[01:08:50]>> Yeah. Naughty stuff. So pregnancy was in the category of naughty stuff. You weren't allowed to talk about it, but us girls would hush hush talk about it. And I think at some point you start to use the word expecting or v orig which is carrying.

[01:09:09]Means carrying. But when we were children and my mother would have a baby, my father would call and say mommy huga baby. Mom bought a baby. Like there was some kind.

[01:09:23]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely was look like they are going to the supermarket to bring another one. So like every year it's like a little bit and yeah. Yeah. So I guess you like me supposed to be in the planning now grandmother. I I told my colleagues are 65 and so they are getting grandparents now. I told them you know I was supposed to be grandfather also now in my age.

[01:09:51]It's just like didn't happen. But this was the planet >> and yeah. Do you have children now?

[01:09:58]>> No.

[01:09:59]>> No.

[01:09:59]>> Less of less of my kind of I understand at some point that it's less of my I'm not having some kind of passion to it. So I prefer not to do it just because I have to or I go up to. It took me a while. At the beginning I was sure that everyone must do it because this how I grew up.

[01:10:22]>> Wait, are you responding to the question if you have children?

[01:10:25]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[01:10:26]>> So I don't have but at the beginning I thought that we all have because this is the way.

[01:10:33]>> Even after I left it took me a while to understand that it's a choice also like many other choices and it's less of my kind of >> understood. Understood.

[01:10:45]But anyway, so I left when I was uh so the community I grew up in was a community that most of the people were >> people who who convert to orthodoxes that weren't ultra orthodox before and the kids most of them born ultraorththodox some of them become to be a little bit I don't know in younger age and stuff like this in a small town in the south of Israel Israel and then I was like a regular ultraorth orthodox like um I don't know I didn't have too many like I had too many questions this is for sure this everyone remind me but I try to be like um I don't know a good kid good student I like to learn to learn and then I moved to Ishivakan you know like the after >> younger is it's like early high school >> yeah exactly so in Jerusalem time and it was like the big city and I started seeing people that are non ultraorthodox.

[01:11:52]>> Where were you from originally?

[01:11:54]>> Nivot. It's like a small town in the south. Now there most of the people of this town are not rich orthodox at least back then. But they were like a I don't know some kind of unseen border between us and them.

[01:12:11]And despite that, I know for sure that I saw them. I barely remember any of them.

[01:12:18]>> Isn't that interesting?

[01:12:19]>> Yeah. It was like u I don't know some kind of >> They didn't register for you.

[01:12:24]>> Yeah, exactly. They were like the someone who cleaned the building or they sell in the supermarket or stuff like this. But I I cannot recall this kind of people because they were like I don't know existing not existing. they weren't part of our world. We didn't, I guess, have any kind of communication besides what we needed from them. And in Jerusalem it was different because I was first of all without the supervising eyes of my parents and the community but also I don't know I look around and saw like different also because the people in my not all of them came from the same community so they were very different in know the way they perceive it the way they behave what was allowed allowed and not allowed. Our family we are like extreme in everything. They take every and make it even more you know everything that you can disallowed it's not allowed. So it was like one day they need to write the book of the craziest humus in the in Dallas family stuff like this.

[01:13:44]>> That would be interesting. I'll read it.

[01:13:45]I'll read it. I just like totally so and then I start like understanding that there are ask some questions.

[01:13:57]There were some events that especially make me think in general about like the structure of the community and not only my family and my community.

[01:14:09]For example, the reaction to Rabin assassination that in in May was a celebration and then they hide it because it was like oh they want to cut us and arrest us because the day after the police start arresting some rabbis who celebrated but for me it was like a wait we're not allowed to how they say in Haman that you're not allowed to be happy like to to celebrate the fall of your enemy, right?

[01:14:46]Something like this. Yeah. You're not allowed to celebrate the fall of your enemy even when he's not a Jew. So a Jew, why? This is the perception of obviously today everyone. It's really strange.

[01:15:00]And this was one event and there was some other events that I encounter and was like quite in shock from the the community like understand that I cannot be part of this community. I didn't know what is the alternative but that I need to leave and I start trying to exploring without having too many tools and then I discovered the radio. So I had a small vman walkman like this kind of with radio and a small air plug that I listen hiding in the street of Jerusalem walking like this. Probably someone thought that I have a problem with my head because there was the you know this suit and then you can have the line from here going >> this was one of the best way >> you could work with.

[01:15:55]>> Yeah. I don't think they want people like me. we ask too many questions and don't accept authority. So in general it won't work. But yeah and like >> who did you listen to? What were you listening to >> at the beginning? I was really attract to sport shows like reporting on football and stuff like this. I didn't understand like 80% of it in the beginning but with the time I learn more and more also with the newspaper because I start reading and understanding the names the what it's mean and all of this but also I listen to news because love news and arguing on news and all of this and then I needed to be careful that they want to cut that they have an information that I shouldn't have.

[01:16:49]>> Yeah. But since so many did it or get some kind of information from forbidden areas it was enough if someone mention it before that then they will say ah he said it and he say someone else and then it's it will go to the usually in in Israel yes he said I hear it from the radio on the bus because this driver is radio very loud on the bus.

[01:17:17]Aha. Aha. I know. It's like asking for a friend.

[01:17:21]>> Yeah, exactly. And also there was some kind of late night shows when people just tell the stories. I guess this was the original version of reality shows.

[01:17:36]So just people are I don't know telling their story, their problems and all of this. There were some famous shows. It was in night so it was much easier to listen to it because in the no one was awake anymore and it was less suspicious to to do it. But then I was I I drawn to these kind of stories and understanding that there are people that have much worse conditions than me. At least this is the way I imagine it back then.

[01:18:12]In one of these shows, I heard the number the telephone number of Hel and then use it to call them to ask about how >> is the organization >> is the organization. Back then it was the only organization. Now there are few others but >> that help people transition out of the Hari community.

[01:18:33]>> Yeah. They help people who want to to to live with information with shelter at the beginning. Now they have scholarships for education, some social events. So they they do quite impressive work in helping people who left the community in Israel.

[01:18:54]So I called them to to get some kind of advice about how you live. And they are like what? And I'm like, yeah, what what what are the concrete what I need to do in order to live? I like lists. I didn't know how much, but now I understand that I need to like a complete list what I'm going to do when I can get to this. So this was the beginning of it. And then I just I I had an agreement with myself that on the day that they start speaking with me on shid matchmaking, I will say goodbye.

[01:19:39]And then the day they start speaking, oh maybe you need to start listening to some uh or hearing about this kind. And I like okay yeah sure and then the day after I just took off went to some um shelter of the welfare system in Jerusalem because there wasn't anything for people who left back then. It was a very small community.

[01:20:10]Search for a job and start my way in the new society, new life, new new challenges, new life, new way.

[01:20:22]Yeah. This was my uh Yeah. And it was a time that no, I don't think there were so many that did it. So, it was a quite uh people were also intrigued like what?

[01:20:35]Because I never hide it. So it was like uh some people didn't talk about it because they didn't like the attention.

[01:20:41]I didn't really care. So I said yeah I was I'm not they're like hey what what why her and stuff like this. Some were more like why did you do it? It's a especially people that have some kind of feeling that this is the better way or something.

[01:21:02]Yeah. So after I left I think 6 months later I went to the military which was also totally shock because everyone need to go to the military unless you are ultra orthodox but you I didn't get educated what happened there. So when I arrived there they were like who are you and why you don't know anything and they didn't have any kind of I don't know manual how how to behave with someone who speaks so I'm not like or something who doesn't know anything and doesn't have any fitness because no one did any type of sport like sport was like something that h the going doing not we are so yeah it was a challenging but interesting times which very >> what did you do in the army what was your role >> I was uh at the beginning in how it's called in English military engineering I think it's like a just um unit but I was still very so first of all I didn't have really good fitness second I asked too many questions which military personals hate like everything that they told me to do I asked why how and stuff like this it was like and also I didn't have family background what many many have so the militar didn't really know how to handle me so I mainly was part and not part like I was part but I didn't really become to be part until both of us understand that it's better if I will go to a some very far away as far as they could to send me base in a lot of the navy and then it was gone like not a scene walk just like some kind office work. Yeah, just in the military >> and but the main thing I learned it's I think it was the place that I learn what is Israelis what is to become an Israeli I also because I didn't have connections with my family because I didn't like my choice then they they have this kind of structure that help you to get a place to live and stuff like this. It's called dead lonely soldier. Not a very good name.

[01:23:57]And I was adopted in a kibuts.

[01:24:01]H So this was also a very big transition from community Yeshiva.

[01:24:07]>> Wow.

[01:24:07]>> To the military and to the kibbuts together.

[01:24:11]H. So I replaced the black and white uniform in a green uniform and then white because of the navy and in the kibbutes this is like the mirror of the fer probably it's a feric community just without the religious in some >> just to translate a kabutz is a communitarian settlement where everyone is sharing supposedly it's supposed to be a socialist uh based Yeah, originally it was a very communal community that that lived usually in rural places have a lot of uh physical work. So far and >> infrastructuring and all of this kind of stuff. With the time more and more of them become to be private organizations, privatized and they are not really communal. But the kibbuts that I came to were still commonal when I joined this place and it was really >> in a way also the community it's commonal so in many ways it was very similar and different they didn't like that I told them oh it's look very similar >> no we are not >> yeah but this was a very at least for me it was a very enlightening also like challenging but enlightening way of relearning about Israeli society and becoming transitioning from being to being Israeli or starting to be Israeli and learning about like for example the importance of high school diploma what we call bud and higher education stuff that we didn't learn about it didn't exist. So I didn't learn English. I learned ABC one year before I started my bachelor studies which was very challenging also for the bachelor but learning English was at elder age it's very challenging but also mathematics I don't know do you have mathematics and science and I don't know English or grammar and all this kind of stuff in schools >> not the girls not the boys yeah this is oh so it's the same >> yeah so we didn't have any as boys and I needed to learn it and since I like challenges, it was a good challenge to so I at the beginning I just wanted to have high school diploma what in Israel we call bakul and this is like allowed you to enter the university with sometimes with additional exams. So they told me you shouldn't have it, I decided that I need to have it. And while starting to study and learning how much I enjoy studying, I continue to bachelor and then discover that I is master and then PhD. So it somehow happened that I stayed on the same campus of the Hebrew University in Jerusalem since 2005 until 2018 and I completed my high school diploma and bachelor master PhD improving a little bit my English from the ABC.

[01:27:51]you're great >> to writing papers in English and presenting and also >> speaking out.

[01:28:00]Yes. So this was a long process of studying and also I guess in a way dismantling some of the information that I learn in the community because recently someone made some kind of quiz about some ultra religious stuff not ultra religious I don't remember something with pray prayers and I was like sorry I with myself.

[01:28:32]>> I understand that I am so far that >> Yeah. Yeah. I relate to that. Yeah. It's there. It's there. It'll You just need to tickle your memory and it'll come back.

[01:28:44]>> No. No. This for sure. After they start speaking about the details and all this, I said, "Oh, right." But when I'm out of scope and then someone askked me like, "Even what you pray on this?" And I'm like, "I don't know. I should have remembered. I did it so many times. It's quite surprising >> that I forget it. So yeah, it's uh >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I also find myself being surprised by things I I forget. It's just fascinating. Last question. Um how do you feel right now about your acclamation to being an Israeli?

[01:29:24]Like what's your view on where you are?

[01:29:27]>> What's my identity?

[01:29:29]No, no. How do you feel? Like it's not what your identity is. It's more >> do you feel good about it? Do you feel tormented? Like what are the feelings you have around where you are now as someone who comes such a long journey?

[01:29:45]>> No, I'm very happy with the place that I'm in. So I think it came when I spoke about why we are so privileged to live in these times because I feel that I have the privilege to live in time that I can I could do all of this journey again with the challenges and with the stepbacks and with all what I have to encounter on this way but I managed to do it to choose my own path.

[01:30:18]and stick to it and become a faculty member in university. So it's uh even people who grew up in the mainstream uh community not usually managing to to do this kind of path. I think uh I have uh many privileges to be here and I'm really happy about it and I also I can do what I want. So I'm have the privilege to study topics that I'm interested in like all the issues that are interested me. One of them is what we spoke about today but also many others. I have the privilege to teach brilliant young people and supervised master and PhD students which I can maybe help them think in the or educate them to think in the scientific way like the way that I see it at least.

[01:31:26]We didn't even talk about it, but I'm also a long distance runner. I like to run very long.

[01:31:34]>> And this is also very central part of of my identity. And the the possibility that I can take myself like last summer to the Alps and run 70 kilometers in these mountains.

[01:31:50]>> What is it in miles?

[01:31:54]It's about half. It's 40. No, it's 1.6.

[01:31:57]So 40 something. 45 maybe.

[01:32:00]>> I'm actually training for a half marathon in April. What is your advice on blister avoidance?

[01:32:07]>> Oh, do you blister tape?

[01:32:10]>> I use tape sometimes, but like if you run you you have a humid area, right?

[01:32:18]It's a very >> It gets very humid in the summer. Yeah.

[01:32:21]>> Yeah. So usually it's a very good socks and getting used to them. Good socks, good shoes. And if you learn in training that you are more attract to it, it's usually using tapes in the sensitive areas. For me, it's I need it to just when I'm running to let's say more than 12 hours to the distance of 100 kilometers and more then I usually put it. But in regular days, regular ones until like let's say 6 7 hours I don't do it. I I am not sensitive so much to it. Actually tomorrow morning in let's say 14 hours I am going to start a very interesting kind of phrase of 24 hours when as as you can. So, we'll see. Tomorrow at 10 a.m. is >> Where is it?

[01:33:19]>> In Tel Aviv.

[01:33:21]>> What's Where are you running? In 24 hours you're running in Tel Aviv.

[01:33:25]>> Yeah, there is a race. It's a race that it's like Spartan.

[01:33:32]It's like uh some name and they have like a different kind of uh like in marathon that you have marathon half marathon 10k in this race you have uh 24 hours uh 12 hours 6 hours or 100 kilometers 100 miles these are the the distances that you can run and I am going to the 24 hours to see how much I can 24 hours.

[01:34:02]So on Friday morning, >> wait, you're going to be awake? You're going to be awake for 24 hours on your feet.

[01:34:09]>> Yeah. Yeah. And then it take some time to fell asleep afterwards because you are very Yeah. All of your body don't allow you to sleep. So I probably will sleep only in the evening.

[01:34:23]>> So yeah.

[01:34:24]>> So for 24 hours you're just going to keep running.

[01:34:26]>> You can walk, you can stop, you can go to sleep. But it's like the competition is to see how much you can run in 24 hours. So you have certain time and if you do 100 kilometers it's nice. If you do 100 miles it's more. If you do more than that it's even better. So it's depend each one have its own goals and demons. So it's a 1.7 about one mile loop that you can run as much as you want. So as much as >> So you plan to take breaks and go to sleep in the middle and >> I plan to run and enjoy and eat while doing it and see what happened.

[01:35:09]>> Whoa.

[01:35:11]Whoa. You know, I did the marathon in Jerusalem.

[01:35:15]Um and Jerusalem is incredibly hilly years ago. I'm not in anywhere near that kind of good shape. I was really obsessed and it's interesting because I feel like it's topical. A part of my experience of leaving the the community has been the desire to have these these physical experiences. You know, we were told in my day and nowadays things are different. In my day, we're told we're all leaving for sex. Um >> we also this was the only reason.

[01:35:45]>> It's like you're all just want to have sex as if you can't have sex while you're in the community. But I do find that this like very carnal experience of pushing your body to a euphoric state.

[01:35:58]I I wanted to experience it as part of my leaving journey. And also I go to the gym and I see this aidic person who wears a polo with a with a collar. And I think, you know, there's something to acclimating and learning the the the elements of of Western society's sports culture that is also a learning experience and it's gratifying. But um the Jerusalem marathon was the most challenging marathon I did because it's so hilly and I was afterwards really really sore in my butt from from having run up and down. So, >> you did the whole marathon, the 42.

[01:36:38]>> Yeah, I did the whole thing.

[01:36:39]>> Nice. Very nice. Yeah, I did it.

[01:36:42]>> But I'm a slow runner.

[01:36:43]>> Me, too.

[01:36:44]>> Did you do it?

[01:36:44]>> Yeah, of course. I did it. It was my first and I did it I think twice or three times.

[01:36:51]>> Wow.

[01:36:52]>> Yeah. Jerusalem Martin is one of my favorites. This is I really love heels upills especially downhills. So now when I'm in the ultra I'm mainly run in very extreme mountains. So like in the Alps in the Swiss Alps which is like uh last summer I run in the Aer which is a very famous mountain in the Swiss Alps around it 70 kil 69 kilometers with 4,000 m of elevation.

[01:37:32]4,000 m. It's >> I think 13 14,000 ft.

[01:37:40]>> Wow.

[01:37:41]>> So yeah, this is the So Jerusalem it's actually flat to what I'm doing it now.

[01:37:47]But yeah, I totally relate to what you said like there is something to the physical challenge that is balancing the mental challenge and and making it much I don't know easier but it's also at least for me it gives some kind of uh I don't know if to call it success or some kind of feeling of control that you can do such a yeah now I am in the very extreme of this not just in is not just not not just for people who left also for the Israeli society. I'm like on the age of people who are doing this kind of stuff and I'm a slow runner. I I run just to finish not to have produce or anything >> but and to enjoy. I really really enjoy it and I try not to be too much missionary about it. But for people who actually live in the community, I always tell them you must have like we break all the boundaries. We need some structure and having a structural training can do miracle. So yeah, I I actually I call it uh I told some of my friends, I didn't do it like officially or something, but I create some kind of a virtual learning club. I call it runners for change and it's become it's just a play words in Hebrew. It start from a play word in Hebrew. there is like out for for change and then they said oh let's do >> and then you see and then I said okay for change so yeah >> yeah this kind of uh >> so anyway run for change >> yeah I'm I'm on board I'm running for change my big dream is to do the New York City marathon which I have covered in my work so many times and which I have watched run so many times but never got to do. Uh have you done it?

[01:39:59]>> No, I wish but I I actually >> I listen there is a really nice podcast American podcast that I like to listen from time to time called Ali on the run something like this that she is always covering the New York marathon. So this is the way that I heard about it. But no, I never run a marathon, a New York marathon or marathon in other country. I run just ultramarathons outside of his >> maybe jump into the long distance first and then >> Wow. All I can think of is what you're going to eat tomorrow or the day after after the 24-hour run. Like everything.

[01:40:40]I'm seeing pizza. I'm seeing cha. I'm seeing everything. Overnight potato cougle and chips.

[01:40:48]>> I am not eating anymore but all the rest. Yeah, definitely.

[01:40:52]>> Got it. Well, enjoy.

[01:40:55]Have a great run and thank you so much for sharing. Uh this was a very stimulating conversation. I really enjoyed talking to you. I'm going to be linking your website and any other links you send me in the video description so the viewers can check it out by looking at the video description. Thank you Jessie. It was a pleasure to talk to you.

[01:41:17]>> Great to be here and hope to meet you one day in person.

[01:41:23]>> Okay. In New York at the at the marathon >> or if you come to Jerusalem in 10 years or something will be safe.

[01:41:31]>> Got it. I don't know. I would I I would come, but it has to happen. Thank you also to the viewers and the podcast listeners and all of you. Thank you and bye-bye.