Episode 353 - Marie Maitland: Scotland's Sixteenth-Century Sappho with Dr Ashley Douglas

[00:00:00]Welcome to Talking Tudors, Ashley. How are you?

[00:00:04]>> Thank you so much for having me on. I'm I'm very well, thank you. I'm very excited to chat to you today.

[00:00:08]>> Oh, I am too about your fabulous new book. But before we do that, would you mind just saying hello to all our listeners and viewers and just telling us a little bit about you and your background?

[00:00:18]>> Of course. So, my name's Ashley Douglas and I'm a Scottish um historian, translator, and author. And I specialize in both the Scots language and LGBT history.

[00:00:31]And I studied Scottish history at the University of St. Andrews, which as people may know is Scotland's first and oldest university. So, quite a nice place to study history. But um I'm from Edinburgh and that is that is where I live today still with my wife.

[00:00:45]>> Oh, fabulous. And and so, as I mentioned earlier, we're here to talk about your new book. It's all very exciting and we can see it if you're watching us on YouTube, you can see it there behind Ashley in her background. So, it's called With My Own Hand, The Secret Life of Marie Maitland, Scotland's 16th-Century Sappho. So, when and why did you first become interested in Marie's life? And and what makes her such a fascinating subject?

[00:01:11]>> Oh, thank you for your kind words about my book. I was really excited that it's just published and so suddenly. And um yeah, Marie Maitland. So, Marie is a a remarkable woman. So, she lived more than 400 years ago in Scotland. So, we're at the time of the Scottish Reformation. This is the time of Mary Queen of Scots and and John Knox.

[00:01:31]And in this climate, Marie not only lived a very unique life as a woman. She really exhibits quite a lot of trailblazing feminist qualities in many ways. And in addition to that, she was also a woman who loved other women and we know that because she wrote very powerful love poetry to other women. And this is as I can't stress this enough.

[00:01:50]This is the time of the Scottish Reformation. This is this is more than 400 years ago. So, it's it's it's amazing in its own context and also in the context of of wider Sapphic history.

[00:02:00]Marie's poetry from the 1500s is among the earliest known Sapphic verse in any language in Europe since the time of Sappho herself. So, Sappho of Lesbos, the the original lesbian poet who lived um on the the ancient Greek island of Lesbos in the the 7th century BCE.

[00:02:19]So, so Marie Maitland is is just remarkable in in so many ways. And the other part of your question was how I first uh stumbled upon her and what what led me to write big about her. And this was by complete chance really. So, as I as I mentioned at the start, my main specialism, my first specialism was um Scots language history. And for for people who don't know, Scots was the language of Scotland for for many centuries, the official language of Scotland. It's no longer our official language. We That's it Scots was displaced by English eventually. But in Marie's time in in in the 16th century, the Scots language was still the unquestioned official language of Scotland, parliament, courts, poetry, everything.

[00:02:58]And I I'm very interested in the time when Scots was still the official language of of Scotland and the the language of record and everything.

[00:03:05]And the the manuscript that in Marie's poetry is in, which we'll we'll come on to in more detail, but that that's in historical Scots because there's no reason it wouldn't be in this time.

[00:03:14]Everybody wrote in Scots. So, as a Scots language historian, I was studying this manuscript as a record of Scots language of the period. And what I didn't know though when I picked up an edition, it's a 1920 edition. So, the manuscript itself is of course uh completed in in 1586 and written over the years prior to that, completed 1586. And only one copy of the original manuscript survives. So, what I first consulted, and this is in 2020, was actually a 1920 print edition, a later print edition of the manuscript, not the primary document, but this print edition. Uh it's a very good print edition. It's It's a facsimile. It's very close to original. And I thought I was just picking up a manuscript containing 16th century Scots poetry by men. I knew that it contained poems by Sir Richard Maitland, which is Marie's father, by King James the VI, who was a very good Scots language poet, as well as the King of Scotland, um and poems by other men. This this manuscript is is fairly well known in academic circles, maybe not in the mainstream, but if if you're an academic historian of 16th century Scotland, you're aware that this manuscript exists. So, I wanted to have a look at it for the the Scots language, really. But, I was not expecting when I opened the fact simile to see a woman's name emblazoned on the front page. It says Marie Maitland in two different fonts and the year 1586 emblazoned on the front page. So, I was immediately thinking, "What is this?" I didn't know there was a woman had anything to do with this. And then as I was reading through the manuscript's poems, I came across tons of anonymous poems, unsigned poems.

[00:04:49]A lot of the poems are attributed to men, they're very diligently attributed to men. Every so often you're you're hitting poems that aren't attributed to anybody.

[00:04:58]And I certainly wasn't So, I wasn't expecting a woman's name to be on the cover. I wasn't expecting to find anonymous poems amongst the male attributed poems. And I certainly wasn't expecting to come across lesbian love poetry in this manuscript from the 1500s. So, it was complete chance. And of course, once I had stumbled upon this manuscript, which with Marie's name on it that that I now know firmly she wrote, I obviously needed to know everything about this. So, who is this Marie Maitland? How is she connected to this manuscript? And who on earth has written this lesbian love poetry? So, that was Yeah, 6 years ago now. This was in 2020 that I first had this moment.

[00:05:32]And since then I have spent the last 5 years um researching her life. And it's never She's never been researched or written about before. So, this really has been a case of uncovering original primary sources that have been unseen for centuries, transcribing them from the secretary hands historical Scots, and making sense of them to tell the story of Marie in my book that I did for the first time.

[00:05:58]>> Oh my goodness, that's so exciting. And anyone who writes [laughter] history or researches history, I'm sure got a chill there because that is just a dream come true what you've described, I think. And I have to say I'm a little bit embarrassed to say I'd never heard of her. So, when I saw your book and and you know, read the blurb and whatnot, I I thought that just sounds absolutely amazing. I need to know everything about this woman as well now. So, before we talk more about her writing, it would be really lovely just to get a sense of of Marie a little bit if we could. So, could you tell us just a little bit about her her family, her early life, anything that we know about that period?

[00:06:33]>> Yeah, of course. So, Marie um was born into a family called the Maitlands of Lethington. So, not not the very highest and mightiest of the landed elite, but certainly a landed family.

[00:06:45]She was She was most probably born at Lethington Castle, where which is just outside the ancient royal burgh of Haddington in East Lothian. So, not too far from Edinburgh, where I am today.

[00:06:55]And um Marie's born in the the late 1540s. So, not too long after Mary Queen of Scots.

[00:07:02]Um and it's a very turbulent time in in Scotland, as I'm sure a lot of your listeners will be aware.

[00:07:08]We've got religious revolution and political upheaval. So, it's it's a it's a it's a very Yeah, disruptive world to have been born into. And her family are really at the center of Scottish court and political life. The men of her family dominate um the Scottish court at this time. So, her father, um Sir Richard Maitland of Lethington, he is the keeper of the privy seal to to Mary Queen of Scots.

[00:07:34]And then her eldest brother, William, later becomes Mary's secretary. So, he's he's best known in history as secretary Lethington to to Mary Queen of Scots.

[00:07:44]And then her other another brother, John Maitland, he will later go on to become the chancellor to James the VI, so the son of Mary Queen of Scots when when he is later king. So, even just from that brief overview, it's very clear like how enmeshed her brothers and her father, the men of her family, are with with Scottish court and political life. So, that is the world and the family that that Mary is born into.

[00:08:10]>> Yeah, amazing court connections. That's incredible. And so, tell us a little bit about maybe more broadly about women how how women's lives were at this point in post-reformation Scotland. What was it like to be a woman of of Mary's status living at this time?

[00:08:26]>> Yeah, well, not great for women generally. Again, I'm sure as your listeners won't be surprised to hear really for women all that you were expected was to transfer from the household of your father to the household of of a husband, make a good marriage, and then bear as many children as possible. That that was that was really it. And especially in post-reformation Scotland, the one alternative path, which might have been becoming a nun, had gone. So, by this time it is marriage or marriage. So, Mary is just on the cusp of womanhood when the Scottish Reformation takes place. I mean, what a time to have been alive. I do think that's so fascinating to think of her just as a as a human like to have lived through that.

[00:09:04]>> Yeah.

[00:09:05]>> Absolutely transformational moment in Scottish history where overnight the the Catholic Church, the old church, is abolished and attending mass is illegal and and all of this.

[00:09:14]Mary would have grown up attending mass and then overnight you can no longer do that. Um and the Scottish Reformation was a very I mean, Scotland adopted a very extreme and austere form of the new religion. It abandoned the old church for really one of the most extreme forms of the new, very austere Scottish brand of Calvinism, which was steeped in misogyny. Um John Knox infamously misogynist with his, you know, first blast of the trumpet against the monstrous regiment of women and all of this. So, post-Reformation Scotland, the society in which Marie lives is one where there's a real moral tightening of control over society, a real clampdown on women in particular who are viewed as weaker and more sinful, a real clampdown on all sorts of behaviors, you know, deemed to be unacceptable or deviant, which it's implied would allow it to flourish under the corrupt old church. So, this is a time of real clampdown and quite suffocating moral control.

[00:10:17]Um for for women and and for Marie. And yeah, women are just viewed This is a time where women are simply viewed as inferior to men in in all ways, morally, intellectually, emotionally. It's It's It's not a great time to be a woman, but this is where Marie's story is so amazing like that that that she lived the life that she did in this climate is is really remarkable.

[00:10:39]>> It is remarkable. And And so, I'm wondering, how is it then that she came to sort of take up this role, I believe, as scribe and secretary to her father?

[00:10:49]>> Yeah, you're right, because she really shouldn't have. By all accounts, we should not be talking about Marie in these terms today. She has three sisters, three older sisters. She's the youngest of four sisters. And all of her older sisters, we've just got the records of them. They come of age, they get married, they bear children. And really, Marie should have done this as well, but a twist of fate occurred and it is is a chance occurrence that that redetermined her life in a way that would otherwise have been unthinkable in this period. And the simple fact is that her father went blind. Um just around 1561. So, just for context, the Scottish Reformation is 1560. And then Mary Queen of Scots returns to Scotland from France to become queen in 1561. And it's just around this time that her father goes blind and we know this for a fact because he was a poet as well as a statesman and a lawyer and a judge also a poet.

[00:11:43]And he wrote a poem to to Mary Queen of Scots upon her return to Scotland celebrating her return and full of lots of flattery to the royal queen. But in this poem he also says in his own words although I served as as a dutiful servant to your mother Mary de Guise the Queen Regent I am not so able to serve you as I would like to be because I no longer I can no longer see.

[00:12:05]So we know from his own words in this poem addressed to Mary Queen of Scots that certainly by 1561 when she returned to Scotland he had gone blind. But what's fascinating is he continued he did actually as I said earlier he he was he served at Mary Queen of Scots' court.

[00:12:20]So despite his blindness by this time he continued to serve in lots of government roles. He continued to serve as a judge.

[00:12:27]He continued to write poetry or at least dictate poetry to somebody else to write it. So despite his concerns about his inability to see he did actually flourish and continue to contribute professionally and politically.

[00:12:40]Obviously to do this he needed help. He needed to pass on his pen. So the twist of fate is that Mary's father goes blind and therefore instead of preparing for marriage and being married off like her sister she instead becomes her father's literary and legal secretary. And that that is how she then gets to live the unique life that that she did in this period that would otherwise have been unthinkable if her father hadn't gone blind. There's no way she wouldn't just have been married off but as it is he did and his misfortune was was her her opportunity to live differently. What an incredible what a story. It's just amazing isn't it? Just absolutely >> [clears throat] >> Yeah it's kind of like if you wrote it in fiction it would be good but like so do you know sometimes history I mean think this I think this with with 16th century Scotland the whole reign of Mary Queen of Scots, it's the sort of thing that it feels too wild to to be true, the drama, the intrigue, um the trauma as well. And then with Mary as well, it is the sort of thing that that feels almost too magical to have been real history, but this was a real historical story. So, you can imagine how exciting it was to get to tell this story. This is the stuff of historian dreams, as you say, like original records that tells this sort of story. It is it is the golden the golden thing.

[00:13:53]>> Ashley, it really really is. And so, you mentioned earlier, of course, the the Maitland Quarto manuscript. And so, just in case people maybe haven't heard about this, can you tell us a little bit more about it and about Mary's role in its creation as well?

[00:14:08]>> Of course, yeah. And so, first of all, people shouldn't feel bad for not knowing about it cuz it's it's not really well-known um outside of like quite If you're not like an early modern Scottish poetry specialist, you probably won't have known it. Um so, the Maitland Quarto, as it's known today, we don't know what what Mary called it or what it was known as at the time, but it's come to be called the Maitland Quarto in contrast to the Maitland Folio. And as you'll be aware, the folio pages are bigger and quarto pages are the smaller quarto-sized pages. So, it's it's quite It's when I first held the original manuscript, I was quite surprised at how small it was. It really does fit neatly into the palm of your hand. Um yes, so the Maitland Quarto, Maitland for its connection to the Maitland family, Quarto for its small quarto-sized pages.

[00:14:51]And it was created by Mary Maitland.

[00:14:54]And it was completed in 1586, but it was begun much earlier, probably in the 1570s. At its most simple, the Maitland Quarto manuscript contains 95 poems in historical Scots.

[00:15:08]And the bulk of these poems are actually by Mary's father, as I mentioned. As well as a a statesman and a lawyer and a judge, he was also a prolific poet. And so, the bulk of the manuscript and at the the beginning of it Are his poems recorded very diligently, chronologically, beautifully attributed to him. So, it is This manuscript is the most complete record of Marie's father's poetry that that's come down to us.

[00:15:32]And as well as her father's poetry, it also contains other attributed poems by the male great and good of 16th century Scotland. So, reflecting her father's connections, her family's connections, there's poems in there by her brother John Maitland. There's one in there by King James the VI himself.

[00:15:51]Um and by some other male poets. But what's very interesting is that in addition to all this male-authored poetry, there are about 30 anonymous poems. And perhaps nowhere has Virginia Woolf's observation that anonymous was often a woman been more obvious than in here. So, yeah, we have all of these anonymous poems clearly written by Marie and the women around her. There are these 30-odd um anonymous but but female-authored poetry. I I've taken to calling them technically anonymous because although they're unsigned, some of them are so obviously by Marie or or about Marie uh that they're not meaningfully anonymous or or unknown. They're just technically unsigned. As to the origins of the Maitland Quarto manuscript, as I've said, Marie became secretary to her blind father.

[00:16:40]And this manuscript actually contains mostly his his poems and is the the best record of his poems that we have. So, it would seem to certainly to be the case that the manuscript was initially embarked upon or conceived of as a record of her father's poetry created by his dutiful daughter, in Marie.

[00:16:59]But as she began the manuscript, and I and what was interesting is I don't know whether this was always clear to her or whether it was more opportunistic when she began it, she obviously at some point realized that this was also the best opportunity she was ever going to get to also record some of her own poetry and that of women around her for posterity. And this was an opportunity that Marie grasped with with both hands.

[00:17:23]And DED, of course, as we know from the the document we have today, DED of course also include lots and lots of female-authored poetry. But it the the the history of the manuscript is quite clear in its practical makeup because the her father's poems and the male-authored poems are all very much in the first half.

[00:17:42]And then the female-authored and her poems come later. So you can you can see how it's obviously developed um as she's been creating it. And in terms of when she began to write it, my firm belief from from having been deep in the records and her her biography is that the manuscript was first embarked on in the 1570s, when her and her family or her father's household were in exile. So obviously in in Scotland with um the reign of Mary Queen of Scots ended very terribly and very traumatically for her, certainly. And this led to several war between the the queen's party and the king's party. Now, unfortunately for Mary and her father, her brother is very much backed the wrong political horse. They were on Mary Queen of Scots' side and and she was not successful. So the king's party punished Mary's father as well, which is a shame because he he was a as I've said, like a a judge. He was actually very neutral and really valued peace and civility.

[00:18:39]But unfortunately for him, his boys had taken the wrong side, and he too was punished for this, which very unfair. He actually writes to Elizabeth the First in England to plead for her help because he's had his castle confiscated.

[00:18:53]Lethington Castle was confiscated from from Sir Richard, from Mary's father.

[00:18:57]And he writes to Elizabeth, you know, it surely cannot be right that the undefending father is punished for for the sins of his sons. But unfortunately for him, Elizabeth did not even write back to him as far as we know the letter arrived with her because it's held in the state papers in England. so it's certainly made its way to England, but um she did not help. So at this point in the 1570s Marie and her father and their household are in exile.

[00:19:22]Probably um in Edinburgh. He would certainly have had lodgings in Edinburgh as a as a prominent um court and and court man and and judge in Edinburgh. Or they also would have had landed friends like uh the Dundas family who lived just north of Edinburgh at Dundas Castle. We know they were present there at some of the time.

[00:19:40]Um and I firmly believe based on on the records that it's in this context that Marie first begins the project of the manuscript as a way almost to have some sort of control and order in this very chaotic world and the very chaotic position that that she and her family are in. I think to provide some comfort to her father, you know, so at least record your your verse and your words for posterity. And in a very organized way because Sir Richard's poem does pop up in in poems pop up in other sources.

[00:20:11]Um but it's quite messy and there's often errors in the poems and things like that. So you can understand why Marie and and her father would have appreciated it, wanted to create a very pristine and clean record of of his poems for posterity. And then also, yeah, great opportunity for Marie to also include some of her own works and that of women around her.

[00:20:31]>> Yeah, absolutely amazing. And so given this incredible story and all that you've been telling us, I'd love to hear a little bit more about how it felt for you when you finally got your hands on the original manuscript that Marie created. And also, tell us a little bit more about what she's what she's inputted into this. What's she writing?

[00:20:51]What what verses did she add?

[00:20:54]>> Of course. Yeah, I still remember when I first held the manuscript in my hands.

[00:20:57]And I'd been researching it for a couple of years already by this point. As I mentioned, the first time I encountered Marie's poems in manuscript was in a later print edition, in 1920 edition.

[00:21:08]The original ink and quill manuscript, of which there is only one copy in in the entire world, is now held at Pepys Library at the University of Cambridge. Samuel Pepys, the famous English diarist and and collector, ended up in his collection. That's another story, but that's that's where it's ended up. So, it's now held privately in Cambridge. So, I I made my way down there.

[00:21:29]And they obviously brought this this book out for me. And the first thing I did notice is much smaller than I was expecting. It's It's very petite. And but like opening it to the the front page and seeing Marie's name emblazoned twice, I think it really just does hit you that these are real people. Like she literally created those letters with her own hand and her own quill. And I did I did just get quite emotional. I'm sure you're you'll appreciate this. You are genuinely quite overwhelmed. And and then especially for me the the the poem that I immediately wanted to to go straight to is one called poem 49.

[00:22:05]And it's it's just called poem 49. Oh, I should say most of the poems in the manuscript are recorded without any title.

[00:22:11]They're just recorded one after the other.

[00:22:14]No titles.

[00:22:15]So, this one is only called poem 49 now cuz it's poem 49 in in the Finnish manuscript. It doesn't have any particular significance. It's just shorthand for for this poem. But this poem is so significant. This is Marie's poem of love to another woman.

[00:22:31]Around the same time that Marie was writing this manuscript in the 1570s, she fell in love with another woman and so powerfully that she wished to marry her. And poem 49 is nine stanzas of her outpouring of love. And let me be so clear, there is no way that this is not a poem of romantic love. It is erotic. And in it she states her desire to marry her. It doesn't really get more unequivocal than that. Cuz some you know, sometimes with with LGBT history, you have to do a bit of reading between the lines and and you can understand why people maybe concealed things, but that this is explicit. There is no other way to read this than as a poem of romantic and erotic love from one woman to another. And as a woman married to a woman myself, this this poem really emotionally resonates. And this the this this sense of self and conviction of self that that Marie had in the 16th century to be aware of herself as a woman who loved other women, and to not to be afraid of that, to be defiant in that, is sometimes hard enough to be that in 21st century Scotland.

[00:23:36]And the idea that she was like I wish I had Marie's strength sometimes. Do you know like the the sense of self that she had to live in the world of John Knox and the Scottish Reformation and say, "Yeah, I love this woman, and there's nothing wrong with that." And what's actually fascinating is that she actually appeals to her Bible.

[00:23:53]Um she she appeals to scripture in validation of her Sapphic love. She cites the story of David and Jonathan, and Ruth and Naomi. Um and it's kind of ironic in a way, isn't it, that a big part of the Protestant Reformation was enabling people to read their own scripture in their own language for themselves. And I I don't necessarily think that John Knox and the guys had in mind that women would therefore see themselves validated as as Sapphics. But that that's what Marie did. She read her Bible for herself, and and she read her Sapphic love as validated in the scriptures.

[00:24:27]And she writes that she she draws on that imagery in her poem. And she also draws very much on the classics. She's very very well-educated noblewoman. So all of this comes across um in this poem. So for me that that was the the page that I was desperate to to go to. And I I placed I remember I placed my left hand with my wedding ring. I've been married to my wife for 9 years this year, which is fantastic. And I put my left hand with my wedding ring on this poem and just connect it with that because Marie would not have been able to imagine women being married openly. It was one thing for her to to you know slip a record of her illicit love into a manuscript anonymously which has been hidden away. That that was amazing for its time. The idea that women would be able to openly marry in the eyes of the church and the state in Scotland would have absolutely blown her mind and it would it would just be amazing if she could know how far we've come.

[00:25:27]Um >> Oh, that's so beautiful, Ashley. Bring tears to my eyes. Really beautiful story. I love that. That sort of tangible sense of connecting with her through her book I think is is amazing.

[00:25:38]What an incredible experience.

[00:25:40]>> Yeah.

[00:25:42]Yeah, it was very special to to actually connect with the document itself rather than a a print edition. And the other fascinating thing from the emotional back to the sort of more academic but although it's you know it's it's probably already very clear to doing this yes, I'm an academic historian but this is such a personal project for me as well. It's both of those those things at once and it's kind of been an accident that I've ended up writing this book but once once I stumbled upon Marie's poetry and her story it was like I need to tell that like this this story needs to be shared. Um and then fortunately I've also got the academic training to do the research and and all of that but it's it's mostly a personal drive that that has has caused me to to spend 5 years of my life researching and and writing this book.

[00:26:24]Um But yeah, to that to the academic again, the other thing with seeing the primary document as opposed to print edition is you can see things like what type of paper is used. And if there have been scribal um crossings out and and errors.

[00:26:40]Obviously you don't see any of that in a print edition where an editor has already intervened and decided what they're telling you what they're not telling you.

[00:26:47]Um so I was very very fascinated to I I I spent so many hours. I did actually two research trips up and down to Cambridge over the the course of my research. When I got to doing the the the chapter on the manuscript properly, I just realized I needed more time with it. I'm sure you've had these moments as well where you think you've seen everything of a record. I I just want to check that again and it was only once you get to writing a certain point that which is quite frustrating when it's in Cambridge cuz I had to go all the way back to Cambridge again, which is quite a long way from Edinburgh, but I was like, "No, I need to I need to go see this again."

[00:27:15]Uh there's has been many many hours with with the document, the the manuscript that Mary created. And there are three paper types. Now it's you know it's one book and it's 95 poems, but there's three different paper types throughout the manuscript, which is immediately interesting, especially when you start to look at at what point the paper changes. And I'll tell you about one of the changes, which is fascinating, which is midway through the final poem of her father.

[00:27:44]Mary appears to have just run out of paper.

[00:27:47]Um so as I mentioned, it seems perfectly clear that the manuscript was initially conceived of as a complete record of the poetry of her father. That's how it started and of course it evolved into something much more than that, but that was the start point. And this is also visible in the physical properties of the manuscript as we have it today because as I say, Mary gets to recording the final stanzas of the final poem by her father.

[00:28:12]And midway through the second last stanza, the paper changes, which tells us that she ran out of paper just before she was finished with what she was meant to be doing, which I imagine was probably quite frustrating for her at the time. And her writing gets more cramped. You can you can tell that she's starting to worry this is going to happen because her writing gets a lot more cramped and small as you go up to this, but despite her best efforts, she ran out of paper.

[00:28:34]So she had to go get a new paper stock.

[00:28:37]Um and then she finished on this this second paper. Um the last half stanza of the penultimate stanza and the final stanza of the last poem by her father.

[00:28:47]and then she attributes this to Richard Maitland, and she does lots of swirls and flourishes as if this is the manuscript finished.

[00:28:54]And obviously [clears throat] she ended up continuing it, but looking at the physical properties of the manuscript, it very much seems that that was meant to be the end originally.

[00:29:03]And then at some point she's already inserted more paper. At some point she does turn over and and keep creating on this second batch of paper. And then again she adds then in a a third batch later on, and it's in this third and final section of the manuscript that we get most of the anonymous female author poetry, that it really does become the miscellany that we have today.

[00:29:24]Whereas if you if you'd stopped at the last poem by her father, that's um it would be really like 90% his poems with just one or two others. It'd be a very different book. The book that we have ended up with today, the 95 poems of which a third or these anonymous female authors, is mostly from the the latter parts. So that that was an amazing thing to see from going to see the manuscript in person as well. There's no way you could have had those insights if you were only working with printed editions, even the best printed edition.

[00:29:53]You just can't get the physicality. That paper is different to that paper or ink because the order in which the poems appear today is certainly not the order in which they were first recorded. So what's poem one now was absolutely not the first poem that that was written in that. Poem one today was added in much much later, and one of the big giveaways with that is the ink of poem one is absolutely different to the ink of poem two, which was the first first poem originally. So that that was the amazing even just I've just given you some examples, but these are the sort of things that when you go see the document itself, it gives up its secrets more.

[00:30:33]Um if you're able to to look at yeah, what the ink that's being used, the paper, and also seeing yeah, where things Sometimes lines are copied out.

[00:30:42]Sometimes lines are copied out and if there's little errors, most for the most part this this manuscript is pristine.

[00:30:49]Marie is a fantastic scribe. She's she's her penmanship, as I like to say, is impeccable. She writes in different scripts. She does beautiful flourishes.

[00:31:00]So, when in the manuscript there are errors or a crossing out, that tells me something about her emotional state cuz it's very out of character.

[00:31:08]So, yeah, that That was just some of the fantastic discoveries from reading the primary record.

[00:31:15]>> Absolutely amazing. And so, you you've obviously talked about the fact that, you know, these poems that you're saying are attributed to Marie or other women are they don't have names, they're anonymous essentially. So, how did you come to the conclusion then that these are Marie's? Were there some clues left in the manuscript perhaps that are pointing to this being a work by Marie rather than her father's work?

[00:31:38]>> Yeah, so the there there are two sets of clues I'd say. The first set are the clues in the manuscript itself. And then the second set of clues are the clues from the historical record. So, I'll just briefly touch on the latter first, which is the fact that we know that Marie didn't marry at the age she was meant to. We know that her father went blind. We know that she was his scribe and secretary. So, these are all his like historical record clues that immediately tell us she wrote the manuscript. That it puts her in the position to to write the manuscript. And then in terms of the manuscript itself, the big clue, as I've touched on, is her name twice emblazoned on the title page.

[00:32:15]That's like your sort of She announces herself so unequivocally from the first page you open, it says Marie Melin twice, not once, twice, 1586, which is the year that her father dies. And the poems at the very end of the manuscript are poems lamenting his his passing.

[00:32:32]These are anonymous poems as well, also almost definitely by Marie.

[00:32:36]Uh poems lamenting on her father and and her mother kind of romantic and morbid at the same time actually died on her father's burial day. Uh we know this from the the poems as well. They're very old. They were actually well into their 80s, which is a very very good old age for for this period. So, it's kind of like sad and nice at the same time. They they they had lived a very very long and good life for early modern Scotland.

[00:32:58]Um So, yeah, there's her name her name on the title page, the fact that it's completed in the year that her father died by her.

[00:33:06]Um And then poem one, the the one that I said earlier is the first poem of the manuscript today, but not the first poem that that that that was included. This poem is added at the very end of the process after the manuscript had evolved into this Marie's manuscript, this this this manuscript full of women hiding in plain sight. And in this first poem, and this this is this is amazing. There's there's so many like amazing discoveries. And that this was probably the Um no, I don't know if I would say it's the best of all the discoveries. Maybe there were some other ones as well, but this one was up there. Um Marie hides herself in poem one in an anagram. This is technically a poem dedicating the manuscript to her father.

[00:33:48]Uh but the last line says um through your poetry to yourself you have made an immortal name. This is the last line of poem one of the manuscript, the opening poem, which would appear to be dedicating the manuscript to her father. But made an immortal name is an your perfect anagram of Marie Maitland.

[00:34:08]So, and this is this is a thing that poets did in this in this period, you know, hiding anagrams and stuff. So, actually this first poem, which appears to be a dedicatory poem to her father, is actually Marie dedicating the manuscript to herself. This is not for her father. This is to yourself, Marie Maitland's name. And what's fascinating again, going back to seeing the primary manuscript, the reason why I was drawn to this line, and it wasn't I had the print edition several times by this point and I'd never looked twice at it.

[00:34:38]I missed it. I absolutely missed it. Um cuz it just it looked it looks like a poem dedicating it to Sir Richard, and you read Yeah, to yourself made an immortal name, fine. It it seems straightforward. Why would you go looking for anything in it? But in the primary document, this line has been copied out um in a contemporary hand, maybe by Marie, maybe by one of the women around her.

[00:34:59]So, in none of the print editions is the copied line given. They just give the line of the poem. But you're sitting with the original manuscript, and you obviously notice this line is written out again. Made in Made in immortal name has been written out again immediately underneath it. So, then you're looking at it going, Why? Why has it And then you spend enough time staring at it and thinking of it anagrams. And I don't know if I I I I can't remember exactly what caused me to do it, but I've still got the the bit of note paper actually where I wrote Made in immortal name and then started crossing out the letters and and got Marie Maitland. That was a proper heart-stopping, Oh my goodness, she is This is an anagram of of And you know I now talk about this in the forewords to the book. This is now the the opening gambit of the book cuz it's just so powerful, and it gives us an immediate sense of the sort of women we're dealing with. So, that that's a massive clue.

[00:35:47]We've got her name on the title page.

[00:35:49]We've got her name embedded in an anagram in the the first poem of the manuscript. And then that first poem, as it says, the line is to yourself made an immortal name well much much later in the manuscript, one of the anonymous poems by women, uh is called it's given the title to yourself. And as I said, most of the poems in this manuscript don't have any title at all. So, it's already quite odd and conspicuous that this one has a big massive title to yourself, which connects it to this line in poem one where Marie's dedicating the book to herself. And this poem to yourself is poem 85, so it's really towards the end of the manuscript at which but you know, this is the time by which Marie has whatever it might have started as a book of her father's poetry, it has it is now something quite different. It is now her putting all of her poems in it and and poems by other women. And this poem to yourself um describes Marie's writing this book. It names her. It names Marie by name. So that you know, it's it's not ambiguous.

[00:36:48]Is this poem about her is it maybe it literally names her.

[00:36:51]It describes her as writing this book and it says, "Once you have completed this book, you will be a famous and perfect poet like Sappho." So in terms of evidence for Marie's authorship of the manuscript and of the lesbian love poetry in particular, we have a poem within the manuscript literally saying that she is is the author of this book and describing her to the original lesbian poet Sappho. So as a historian, I I don't know what much more evidence you could possibly hope for. It's so clear-cut. It's it's unbelievable. But that's the sort of evidence that that we have in the manuscript itself. And then when you marry that as I say, that's that's just the manuscript for me. The manuscript alone is is got enough evidence. When you then marry that up with the known facts of her life and her biography, it all completely adds up that that she would also have written this manuscript as her father's unmarried scribe.

[00:37:43]>> Absolutely incredible. Such an incredible story. I know I keep saying it, but it is it [laughter] is it is And so how many poems do you think then that she's written in there? Tell us a little bit more about her verses.

[00:37:55]>> Sure, yeah. So as I say, there's there's about 33 poems altogether the anonymous ones, the majority of which are are female-authored.

[00:38:03]Within that um and these ones are are very significant for me as as a lesbian myself. So obviously when you find your own your own history, it's it's it's very meaningful and and validating.

[00:38:12]Three of these are lesbian love poems.

[00:38:14]So I've touched on one of them already, the poem 49 which is Marie's very powerful declaration of love, statement of her desire to marry uh this woman.

[00:38:24]And then you've you've kind of got another um lesbian poem at the end, which is poem 89 at the very, very end of the manuscript and painfully, this is a poem of heartbreak, it would seem, because it's very much connected to poem 49. A lot of the imagery is repeated and it's it's obviously Marie again writing to the woman that she once declared her undying devotion to many years ago.

[00:38:45]But by poem 89, it seems that the love has not lasted and Marie is in a a a state of heartbreak. So it is it's a really hard poem to read and when I was reading the the chapter about that book, you got kind of depressed, to be honest, cuz you had to dwell in this pain and and heartbreak, but it it's still a love poem from one woman to another. So poem 49 is definitely more uplifting, but poem 89 is there as well. And then there's a fascinating one in the middle.

[00:39:11]Um this is the third of the Sapphic trio, if you will, poem 72. And it's just four stanzas. And I um not sure now, but I'm I'm really interested to hear actually what other people think as to whether it's by Marie or her or her lover. I don't know if you read that part of the book, Natalie.

[00:39:28]>> No, I haven't read that bit.

[00:39:29]>> Okay. Well, when Yeah, I'm I'm very um I'm excited for readers to start engaging um with the book and the poems because poem 72 is certainly a love poem from one woman to another. It is certainly connected thematically with the other two lesbian love poems that are by Marie, but what what's unclear is whether this poem was also by Marie or whether it was by her lover in response to her. Now, I feel for a range of reasons that this one was by her lover um to Marie, but my wife, for example, thinks that this that that it's Marie as well. So I'm I'm quite excited for um readers to to read that chapter and read the evidence and see what they think.

[00:40:08]But um certainly another female-authored poem, just whether by Marie or her lover.

[00:40:14]And then in terms of other poems that Marie [clears throat] wrote, she also wrote a poem uh about her castle home, her beloved castle home of Levington, as I mentioned when this manuscript was created, they were in exile. The Maitland family were in exile cuz their property had been confiscated by by the King's party.

[00:40:33]And Marie pens this very moving beautiful love poem to Levington Castle and her ancestors, her Maitland ancestors who built it and she reminisces about all the fun times she spent there growing up there, which is great for us as historians because although for her it was born of a very distressing time and being in exile and really missing her castle home. For us it means we get this beautiful first-hand insight into Levington and she tells us, you know, about the tapestries that were there and how they had good cheer around the table. You don't normally get that sort of intimate insight into somebody's life.

[00:41:08]And then she also writes um a consolatory poem to her father, for example. It's it's it's a really rough time for the Maitlands, the the 1570s with the fallout of the civil war and one of well, her brother William dies.

[00:41:22]This was Mary's secretary Levington. He dies after the fall of Edinburgh Castle and then not long after her her other brother Thomas Maitland dies while out on a diplomatic mission in Italy. So it was it was a very rough time for her family all around and in this context she also pens a a consolatory ballad to her father and at the same time her one remaining brother John Maitland, he ends up in prison.

[00:41:48]Um for for his role in the King's party.

[00:41:50]So two of her brothers are dead, their family home is confiscated, her other brother's in prison and and Marie also writes a poem to to her imprisoned brother to comfort him. So these are that's that's a sense of the sort of range of poems that we have, quite a diverse range of poems in the manuscript.

[00:42:06]>> Incredible. What an incredible record.

[00:42:08]And are there other women do you think that have contributed or or do you feel mainly Marie and possibly her her lover as well?

[00:42:16]>> Yeah, well, there's there's at least one other. And I suppose what to make clear is like Marie has obviously transcribed all the poetry in the manuscript, even the poems other people have have written. To make that clear, it's Marie that has transcribed it all into this this manuscript. Um poem 72, as I mentioned, could be by her, could be by her lover. So, we've got that hint of another a woman there. And then we also have uh anonymous poem, although it's it's really more semi-anonymous because Marie attributes it with initials. It's just attributed to a GH.

[00:42:50]Um and it's it's almost certain this GH represents a woman called Grizzell Hay of Yester, another East Lothian family. And this poem um is in female voice and is about uh an unwanted arranged marriage. And it's very fascinating, much like with Marie, where we can we can match known facts of her life to the poetic contents of the manuscript. Similarly, the known facts of Grizzell Hay's life, where she did have an unwanted arranged marriage, match up with this poetic record. So, between the historical record and then the poetic record, we can say with quite a degree of certainty that this particular semi-anonymous poem is was almost definitely written by Grizzell Hay of Yester, and then Marie has copied it >> Right.

[00:43:35]>> into her manuscript. And then there's other poems um like the one where Marie's compared to Sappho and praised in gushing terms as a poet, where a an a woman that that knew Marie well is the likely author of this. I mean, it could be that Marie is just very, very um arrogant and not afraid to to blow her own trumpet, as he's not beyond comprehension.

[00:43:57]But there's quite a few poems in there that are about Marie and that are really, really gushing and and flattering towards Marie. And my sense is that these were written by potentially her lover or or by another woman around her who knew and admired her and then Marie has put all of these into the manuscript and these are poems as I say where Marie is mentioned by name. You don't you don't have to read between lines to think oh this might be about Marie. It's like she is literally named Marie Maitland and we learn things about her character and her poetic prowess that just ties up with everything else we know about her.

[00:44:31]But it's very it's frustrating cuz it's hard to give these women names unfortunately beyond Marie. It's it's very difficult and and Grizzle Grizzle who have yesterday but otherwise the the you know how many other women there were involved who they were we don't know for sure which is which is frustrating but certainly it would seem to me that this there's there eight poems in total speak to Marie being at the center of like a small community of of female poets and and even lovers.

[00:44:59]>> Yeah, so interesting. And so you know you've obviously spent a lot of time with this particular manuscript and a lot of time immersed in Marie's biography and her life. So reading all these poems what did you sort of learn about Marie her life even more broadly about you know women in this period for example?

[00:45:20]>> Yeah, I think what the thing that it tells me the most and again as a lesbian is that women who love other women have always existed and even or perhaps especially in times and and in places where that has been exceptionally difficult and there's something incredibly validating and empowering about that as as as a lesbian myself as a woman married to another woman myself because you know growing up and I'm I'm I know I'm I'm not the only a gay person who will say things like this is what you hear from from gay people all the time it's very sad is that you grow up and you think there's been nobody like you before and and that obviously can lead to you feeling alone or wrong and and and makes it difficult to you know come to terms with your sexuality which is such a negative thing in itself. It shouldn't be something you have to come to terms with.

[00:46:05]Um so for me discovering Marie Maitland and quite late in my life, you know, I was married to women by the time I came across Marie, but I really wish I'd known about her earlier cuz it would have made such a difference. But even discovering her now um at this stage in my life, it has still been incredibly validating and and empowering it um to know that a woman like me who loved another woman so much she wanted to marry her and who walked the same streets of Edinburgh that I did.

[00:46:34]>> Today because of you know, you know, I know some of lesbian history we've we've heard of obviously Sappho, the ancient Greek poet, and then Anne Lister um who's become quite famous in recent years as Gentleman Jack, the famous English diarist from a few centuries after Marie. All of this is amazing. I will take any lesbian history you can get, but there is something all the more um powerful about finding a woman who who's who's from my own history, Scottish history, and and Edinburgh. And I don't know how well you know um historical Edinburgh or like Edinburgh today, but it's not changed that much from from Marie's time, you know, the Royal Mile from the Edinburgh Castle at the top down to Holyrood Palace at the bottom with St. Giles' Cathedral like and then you've got Arthur's Seat and Salisbury Crags. Like all of this would have been the same for Marie. Like she would have walked the same street and seen vaguely the same things. So I just I just can't walk down to Edinburgh's High Street anymore without thinking, oh well, Marie like would have seen this exact same site.

[00:47:31]Um and we know um one of the records that I found I can place her um at St. Giles' on several occasions and I can place her in a property uh just down from St. Giles' on the High Street. So, you know, to have that history and I'm embedded in my own city, it just makes me feel more secure as as a lesbian as a Scottish lesbian than than I've ever felt before.

[00:47:53]And I really hope that telling this story can can do that for other people as well. But so that that that's the the sort of lesbian side of it, but even just as a woman in this time, Marie is very inspiring, I think, as somebody who would just refuse to be limited by the expectations and restrictions upon her placed upon her by the society she happened to be born into. And I just think the the the sense of self and the bravery and the courage that she exhibits even just as a woman at that time is amazing. So, I just hope she can be an inspiration to all of us that like amazing, independent, brave women, and women who love other women have always been here.

[00:48:33]And even in times far harder than it Not that we have it necessarily easy today, but even in times that were far harder, women women have been there and been living amazing lives.

[00:48:43]>> Yeah, and tell us a little bit more about how same-sex relationships were viewed at the time in case our our listeners haven't sort of come across that history before. Tell us a little bit about that.

[00:48:54]>> So so >> Same-sex relations at this time were viewed as a a great sin in the eyes of the church and also a crime in the eyes of the state. They were tended to be termed sodomy. Um >> Yeah.

[00:49:07]>> Uh or buggery. And in England in 1533, we have Henry the VIII's buggery act um criminalizing that, you know, with execution, with death.

[00:49:19]And in Scotland, we don't have the original record anymore, the equivalent of of Henry's buggery But we do know that it was also um a crime worthy of death by the mid to by the mid-1500s because what we have in Scotland is a record the earliest execution um for sodomy is a 1570.

[00:49:39]Uh two men were executed at Edinburgh Castle Hill for that the crime of the so the crime at the time of of sodomy. And that's so that's 1570. So, this is this is the world that that Marie's in Marie's born in the late 1540s. So, this is the first recorded execution for sodomy in 1570.

[00:49:55]And then in 1625 in Scotland, we also have a conviction of female sodomy. So, it's quite a dubious honor that Glasgow has, that's the earliest surviving record of a conviction for female sodomy um in the UK is from Glasgow, and that was the church, and it was two women um found guilty of the the scandalous and awful crime of {quote} female sodomy.

[00:50:20]And they were a forced to separate under pain of excommunication, which obviously was a big deal at that time when the church was the the center of all life. So, yeah, you can't really overstate how unthinkably awful that the idea of same-sex relations were, you know, it's almost like anachronistic even to try and conceptualize it as relations or anything. It's just like it's a crime, it's a sin, it's one of the worst things you could you could possibly do at at that time, and it would be a very long time um certainly in Scotland before that would start to change actually. So, >> Incredible. Yeah, and to think that Marie had the courage to write what she did is just I can see why you're saying that it's empowering and inspiring to you. That that's amazing. Um and of course you've you've said that you know you you hope that your book finds people and that it's inspiring to women generally, but also to perhaps lesbian women as well. So, is there anything else that you really hope or you do want to sort of expand on anything that you want your readers to take away from your book?

[00:51:25]>> Sure. Yeah, as you say, I've said my main points, which is that women and women who love women feel inspired and validated. But also, I think on that point, that there is more records of our history than we've perhaps been led to believe. Uh because I obviously said I studied Scottish history at St. Andrews, and I didn't hear a thing about Marie Maitland. So, you would be forgiven for assuming that no such women existed. Um And and I mean of of course it's the case that there are there are going to be fewer records of both women and LGBT people than there are of straight people and men because of the social inequalities that that have characterized most of our our history and because especially with LGBT people we've been criminalized and persecuted.

[00:52:05]So of course there are going to be fewer especially positive records of our lives compared to to to straight people.

[00:52:12]However, what's become clear to me certainly through stumbling and then researching Marie Maitland and then delving more into LGBT history is that there are in fact way more records of our history than we have been led to believe or than you might assume. So I would like that to be a takeaway as well which is that if Marie Maitland's story has been there the whole time, you know, these records are there. They're held at National Records of Scotland, National Library of Scotland. The records the manuscript has always been known about.

[00:52:41]Do you know, it's not it's absolutely not the case that I discovered the manuscript. I'm just the first person to have meaningfully recognized the female authored in the anonymous poetry for what it is.

[00:52:51]And then deemed Marie worthy of research. But anyone could have done that in the past 400 years. Anybody could have could have thought, "Oh, who's this woman on the front of this manuscript? I want to go and research her life." It's just no historian's done that before. They've been more interested in the male poetry or whatever else.

[00:53:06]So yeah, I I hope that readers and especially historians take away like do not assume that just because we don't know these people yet that that records aren't there. Don't assume that we've we've we've exhausted all the records because if Marie's story can have gone untold all this time and she is a prominent well-attested woman. She is the sister of this the chancellor to kings. You know, she's one of Scotland's noble elite families. There are lots of written records about her and about her family. So if if she can have gone overlooked for all this time, who knows what else is in the records just waiting to be discovered and written about.

[00:53:49]>> No, well, it's so inspiring. I have to say it's inspiring on many different levels and I'm so glad that you went and had a look at the at the manuscript and have brought this story to light. That's amazing. There is one final thing that I do actually when I first have guests on the show just end on a more sort of light-hearted note and it's what I call 10 to go. So, these are just 10 questions to get to know you a little bit better. So, the first one is because I love walking in the footsteps of people from the past, do you have a favorite historic site that you like to visit? Or one of your favorites cuz I know that's a hard question.

[00:54:22]>> Yeah, one of well, do you know the best place I've ever visited for history has to be ancient Egypt and my wife and I went went on a trip there a few years ago and it was just mind-blowing. I I think it like rewired my brain chemistry. Like standing at the pyramids was just overwhelming. Um, so as if if ancient Egypt is one that like go that you have to go in your lifetime if people haven't been it's so worth it. We obviously started at Giza with the the Great Pyramid there, but we also went to Saqqara which is like the Pluto Pyramid. So, that was even more I thought it was actually even more moving cuz it was also a lot quieter than the the main pyramids as well. To be at Saqqara and then we obviously went down to the the Valley of the Kings as well and extending in the tomb of Tutankhamun and Hatshepsut's temple. It was just amazing and we went on also one of the old sail boats down the River Nile.

[00:55:15]I I honestly you can tell it this trip just had such an impact on me our our time in Egypt. I really felt like we'd gone back in time the preservation of >> Yeah.

[00:55:24]>> these temples and the tomb carvings and just to think I mean obviously I specialize in 16th century Scotland, but I actually prefer my history millennial old if possible.

[00:55:33]Um, so Oh, that is that is on my list.

[00:55:39]No, haven't and I'm one of these people like you. You know, I specialized in 16th century history as well, but I am obsessed with ancient Egypt. I love ancient history and spend all my time watching documentaries. So, that sounds amazing. I need to do that, I think.

[00:55:55]Was the new museum opened actually when you were there?

[00:55:58]>> It wasn't. We just missed it. We just missed the new museum, but it means we have to go back and we have to go back anyway because they you know, they change the tombs that are open at the the Valley of the Kings to like preserve them.

[00:56:08]>> Right. Okay.

[00:56:09]>> Some of them are I think some of them are always open like Tutankhamun's tomb cuz obviously everybody wants to go to that, but obviously there's tons of them. So, they rotate the other ones that are open.

[00:56:18]>> I see. Okay, that's good. That's a perfect excuse.

[00:56:21]>> We've got enough excuses to go back.

[00:56:23]Yeah, we've gathered and all we need to go to the Cairo Museum. We need to go to these tombs. I think we've gathered enough excuses that we need to go back and you'll you'll probably like as well.

[00:56:29]I recently actually got a tattoo of ancient Egyptian I don't Can you see that on the the camera?

[00:56:34]>> I can see that. I was I saw it a little a glimpse of it and I was wondering what that was.

[00:56:39]>> Yeah, so this is a this is a brand new tattoo actually if people can see that and it's um amazing. It's the ancient Egyptian lotus flower um motif. So, that is how much I loved our trip to Egypt and I'm obsessed with ancient Egypt. I even had to get a lotus flower tattoo down my arm.

[00:56:56]>> Oh, I love that inscribed on your heart and on your skin. That is absolutely perfect. Love that. And what about a last book that you read or perhaps a book that you're currently reading?

[00:57:08]>> Sure. So, I'm currently reading um Fire and Blood by George R. R. Martin. Part of the Game of Thrones universe. Are you a Game of Thrones fan?

[00:57:16]>> I am a huge Game of Thrones >> Yeah. Right. So, have you read Fire and Blood?

[00:57:20]>> I am a bit naughty because I haven't read them. I just love the show which I know is terrible. My husband's read them all, but I haven't read them.

[00:57:27]>> That's totally totally fair, but if you were going to read one like Fire and Blood is amazing. The reason I love it I do just love the Game of Thrones universe and dragons and everything, but Fire and Blood is fascinating because it's the story of um like from from the conquest of Aegon the Conqueror and the centuries after that.

[00:57:43]But it's it's written uh by like a grand maester and it's written as if it was a real historical source.

[00:57:50]>> Right. Okay. Yeah.

[00:57:51]>> So it's it's it's like such a masterclass in historiography and I think there's something about, you know, viewing these things through a fictional lens and with dragons that actually elicited the problems faced by the real historian because this is George R. R.

[00:58:04]Martin has written this as if you've got a a grand maester telling you. But he'll say, you know, "Well, some sources say this, but some sources say that, so we can't know for sure." And it's like this is this is real history problems as well, so it's super clever. And then with House of the Dragon, which is obviously the series at the moment that's based on Fire and Blood, so there's there's bits in Fire and Blood as the like the historical sources, the conflicting and incomplete historical source. So then the guys in the TV show are having to decide what to show cuz the historical record doesn't tell you.

[00:58:33]It it it leaves it unclear or there are conflicting sources. So I feel kind of bad for the TV show cuz they're actually having to make a decision as to like what do we show? The sources are actually not clear. So yeah, as a budding historian, I'm very interested in historiography as a you know, there's like history proper, but actually historiography is mostly what we're dealing in. We can't really ever know what did or didn't happen. We're actually dealing with partial and contradictory records. And I think House of the Dragon and Fire and Blood, the books that it's based on really is just like a fantasy version of that with dragons. So it's like my favorite TV show and then the book I'm just rereading because of the new season of House of the Dragon is um coming soon. So I'm just reminding myself of the historical sources before I watch but I can really recommend that for historians. You could do worse than read Fire and Blood. I would If I was a lecturer, I would have people read that as like a set text as in like to discuss historiography and Yeah, you'll love it. You'll >> You'll honestly You'll love it.

[00:59:31]>> Oh, thank you. And what about when you're writing and you're working and researching, are there any rituals that you like to follow?

[00:59:39]>> Um I'm definitely um a morning person. So, I think that that is definitely the time I like to write. So, that that is that would probably be the ritual to the extent I have a writing ritual. It's just first thing in the morning, first cafetière of coffee. That's when I will write. I will write very between like 6:00 a.m. and maybe 10:00 a.m. at a push. And then after that, I just can't I just can't write after that. Like for me after 10:00 a.m., the day is done.

[01:00:03]>> [laughter] >> So, I think I just I know when I'm just a morning person. I can write in the morning. So, I just I need to protect that time for for writing.

[01:00:11]>> Yeah, phone on do not disturb, no Game of Thrones.

[01:00:15]>> No Game of Thrones. And the good thing is as well at that time in the morning, people aren't really up. Do you >> Well, exactly.

[01:00:19]>> emails actually aren't pinging, your phone's not pinging cuz everyone's not awake yet anyway. So, it's kind of good in a way.

[01:00:23]>> Yeah.

[01:00:23]>> But yeah, don't ever ask me to write after like lunchtime. I just I just doesn't work. Apart from when you have a deadline. Apart from when you have a deadline, and that that's when you know I really have a deadline on if I am actually writing like in the evening.

[01:00:34]Something's terribly, terribly wrong.

[01:00:37]>> Love it. And what about the last film that you saw or even even a series if if that's easier for you?

[01:00:44]>> Is it Is really bad that we've just been rewatching House of the Dragon? This is going to just sound like I'm an obsessive of of the show.

[01:00:49]>> There's a theme growing.

[01:00:50]>> I kind of am, yeah. Um I have We have honestly rewatched >> one and two of House of the Dragon for for season three.

[01:00:58]>> Yeah, I really I need to do the same thing actually. You're inspiring me a lot here. Um and what about if you had a little bit more spare time? Is there a new skill that you would like to learn?

[01:01:08]>> You know, I would really love to learn an instrument, and I would most love to learn the drums, but that's probably impractical. So, I guess I'll say guitar as something that you can probably easily do in your house. But yeah, I would really like to learn an instrument.

[01:01:20]>> Yeah. Wouldn't that be amazing? I'd love that, too. And what about So, you mentioned um Egypt, but what about a travel destination that you haven't visited that you would like to see?

[01:01:30]>> I would definitely love to go to Crete and see the Knossos Palace. That as I say, that sort of ancient ancient history. Yeah, I would So, yeah, Crete is very high up on my list.

[01:01:43]>> Oh, I'd love that, as well. Um and so, do you have any Do this just in general, doesn't have to be history or anything, but do you have any favorite authors that you feel that other people should check out or you recommend other people check out?

[01:01:56]>> Sure, and this is definitely a history one, but my favorite historian and author is Bettany Hughes. I don't know if you've come across Yeah, so I just think she's absolutely wonderful. Um I think her her books are fantastic, and also all of her TV documentaries, and she's just such a lovely person, as well. I've been to a few of her book events when she's come to Edinburgh, and she's just she's just amazing. I think her really inspiring. She's probably the the historian who most inspired me, to be honest, to do public history and write a book. So, yeah, if your listeners haven't come across Bettany Hughes yet, any of her books, TV shows, she's she's fantastic.

[01:02:30]>> Yeah, I've seen her shows, and I've I haven't met her, but she seems like a really lovely person every time I watch her videos or whatnot. I think, "Oh, yeah." And um what do you like to do then to just relax and unwind?

[01:02:42]>> Um you'll not be surprised to hear that reading books is quite [laughter] quite relaxing.

[01:02:45]>> of thrones.

[01:02:47]>> Yeah, yeah, reading game of thrones.

[01:02:49]Ideally with a glass of wine at that, so that's a good dream. And also, I also like to This might not sound relaxing to some people, but my other peak relaxation thing is probably a very high-intensity spin class. That is my go-to. I love it. It's like the Les Mills um brand. RPM is like the Les Mills spin class. It's 45-minute very high-intensity spin class with very loud music, very high-intensity cardio, and that maybe makes me quite weird, but I find that extremely relaxing cuz you're just like very in your body. Do you know what I mean? Like for the 45 minutes, you're just on the same bike. The music's going. The instructor is screaming motivational stuff at you. So, like for me, it's like very good way to get out of my head. And And then you get the post-exercise like endorphins. So, that that is that's my way.

[01:03:32]>> after exercise. It's so fabulous, isn't it?

[01:03:35]>> It's so it's so good. Yeah, I have a one of my my favorite spin class to go to is there's like a Friday evening one, and it's just such a good transition point between like the end of the working week. And then Friday night spin class, and then you're like just ready for your weekend. So, >> Yeah, that does sound good. And then just a do you have a great piece of advice? And this could be something that someone's told you, something you've read, anything at all. It doesn't have to be about history. It could be life in general that you wouldn't mind sharing with us.

[01:04:02]>> Yeah, well, I'll I'll stick to history, and I think my best advice would be um go back to the primary records. You know, like always go back to the primary records.

[01:04:11]One, because there might be stuff there that has been missed. And that Mary Maitland's story exemplifies that. There are records that have been there in plain sight the whole time that people hadn't seen or sought out.

[01:04:23]So, go back to those those primary records from the 1500s and see what's there. And two, even when there are print editions of things, I take go back to the primary records, right? Because even print editions are they all have their own flaws. You'll know this from your own research as well. Um so, yeah, whether you are verifying something that a secondary source or edition has said, I I'd believe it unless I've seen it in a primary record. I check with my research even on Mary even facts that have already like obviously some of the records were already transcribed, records about her and her family. I just don't trust them until I need to see it with my own eyes. So, until I have verified the primary record myself, I don't I don't take it as fact. Uh so, I would just encourage everyone just just go back to primary records at all times.

[01:05:07]>> Yeah, I completely agree with you. And I'm exactly the same now. I'm just questioning absolutely everything that I hear.

[01:05:13]>> Yeah.

[01:05:14]>> You know, I study Anne Boleyn and there's just so much stuff out there that is completely unsubstantiated. Like totally. It's crazy. But um so the very last thing Ashley, you've been so generous with your time, is the takeaway. So normally it's a Tudor takeaway. This can be just a 16th century takeaway. And it's something for our listeners to go off and explore after the episode. Do you have a takeaway for us?

[01:05:35]>> I do and it's very much on the theme of primary records. So so there's a fantastic resource um called The Records of the Parliaments of Scotland.

[01:05:46]>> Mhm.

[01:05:46]>> And it's just easily accessible online.

[01:05:48]I think it's just rps.ac.uk.

[01:05:51]It's hosted by University of St. Andrews. And what you get there is all of the records of the historical Scottish Parliament. So up to 1707.

[01:05:59]That's when we then had the Act of Union of Parliaments with England and everything. But the pre-Union historical Scottish Parliament including the Tudor era. Um Mary Queen of Scots is there and everything. And these records are all transcribed and translated. Easily searchable. Cuz you know, we're saying oh go to primary records, but the fact is sometimes it's very hard to do that, isn't it? Like to to get access to these documents is very tricky uh physically and practically. And then if they've not been transcribed like the actual job of transcribing them. So although I'm saying go to primary records, I do also appreciate that it's quite hard. So I just think this resource is fantastic because somebody has done the very hard work of transcribing all of the original manuscript records of the historical Scottish Parliament. And I know it's Scotland as opposed to Tudor England, but it's still the same period. So people might like to have a look through the actual records um on there. And they're translated as well from Scots or Latin into modern English. So you can you can just have a look to your heart's content at the primary records of the Scottish Parliament. Um yeah, it's rps.ac.uk.

[01:07:02]>> Fabulous. And I'll add a link to that to our show notes. And you know what? We've I've that takeaway in I think, you know 350 episodes so actually well done.

[01:07:10]Thank you so much. I love that and thank you so much for taking the time to to speak with me. It's honestly been such a pleasure to to meet you and to talk about your incredible work. So thank you so much.

[01:07:21]>> Oh, thank you. It's been a pleasure.