MAGA Pundits Get a REALITY CHECK Live on CNN

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[00:00:00]I think most Americans look at that and go, "Yeah, I know that, you know, I understand that what's happening here."

[00:00:06]>> A lot of sense. So, we have to argue about that after going to hire 6,000 who was going to hire 6,000.

[00:00:13]>> He said there's a massive exodus from New York City. I would like to know the evidence.

[00:00:17]>> I would like to know what you're saying.

[00:00:20]>> We do not have a system that you want that money for. Is it merely to Trump?

[00:00:24]>> Sorry. What is your What numbers? What What is the source of that?

[00:00:30]So the fight about Manny's tax proposal to tax the rich more is still ongoing and the rich are just not comfortable with it still. You see in the likes of Ken Griffins put the forth the opinions and how much they're disgusted at that proposal and Jeff Bezos came out to present his opinion and he sort of put it out in a mocking way. He said the tax system in the United States is already progressive enough. As such the rich are responsible for over 70% of the government revenue. The bottom poor only pay about 3% of the total government tax revenue. He says if Mambdan aims to make the tax system much more progressive tax the rich twice as much as possible to see if that would help the economy. In short, he's mocking MD and Mi responded to him appropriately. We welcome the idea. Let's try it out.

[00:01:11]>> He says we have the most progressive tax code in the world. Do you think that's true? And do you think what he's suggesting could make a difference? So, I want us to sort of first ground ourselves a little bit in some of the math of what Jeff Bezos was presenting there because I think it's flawed in some pretty important ways. The first way that it's flawed is that if you take someone like Jeff Bezos, a billionaire who's worth $280 billion, our tax system actually doesn't have a great way to generate revenue from him.

[00:01:45]And if you take what he said, if he said, "If you decided to tax me double, you wouldn't be helping those teachers in Queens and those nurses." That's just like factually inaccurate. If you taxed him double this year, you would be increasing the salaries of every teacher in New York by $35,000 a year.

[00:02:03]>> I feel like you want to respond to that again.

[00:02:04]>> Well, I think actually what Jeff Bezos said there is actually kind of cleverly subversive. Um, he's got to have a lot of progressives now saying, "Well, look at even this billionaire, and we hate billionaires." And even he's saying that we have to reduce the tax burden. Now, meanwhile, he's articulating an advocate that advocating a position the conservatives have said for a very long time is that 10% of the income earners, the highest 10% pay 70% of income taxes.

[00:02:24]Yes, the tax code is very complicated, but we're talking about income taxes and the progressive income tax schedule. And he's correct that the 10% highest earners pay 70%, 1% pay 40% of all income tax revenues. So now he's saying, well, listen, I'm on your side. You just have to agree with me on our actual numbers. which does educate the public about the nature and also when he's he's right on education spending the extent to which we've doubled in New York City we've doubled the amount of spending that we spend per pupil and students over the course of this century meanwhile test scores have >> but this is all that is all it's all kind of slight of hand because what what is really bothering most Americans is that the tax code just doesn't deal with the wealth in the first place we see these big headlines about this CEO has just been awarded 20030 million dollars in compensation but most of of it is awarded in multi-year tax uh uh uh stock dividends, stock uh awards and they can't be taxed on it. It is called um unrealized gains.

[00:03:20]>> The United States ra raises most of its revenue through taxation which is okay but the taxation in the United States is done at two different levels. There's one done at federal level then there's another one done at local or state level. At the federal level you see the total amount of revenue tax revenue that the government raises. It's true that the rich pay close to 40 between 40 to 70% of the total revenue that the government raises that is corporation and and and all these high income earners they pay that level but when it comes to state level they don't get to pay much but then the what determine the amount of taxes in the United States is not the federal amount of taxes that you paid it's both the state and the the federal taxes when you consider an aggregate of both taxes middle and low income earners still pay more than the billionaires pay actually the burden that they take on their salaries still do higher than more than the billionaires because billionaires have figured out how to avoid state taxes but also commit to federal taxes and so you ask is it progressive enough I mean for a tax to be progressive it must be capable of dealing with all the inequalities that are existing in the society it depends on what level you check it at federal level is unequal at state level is still unequal >> stock uh awards and they can't be taxed on it it is called um unrealized gains but you can go to the bank and use it like money. You can get a mortgage based on unrealized gains. You can you can get use it as collateral for things. So the bank recognizes it as money, but the federal government does not recognize it as money because you have not taken it out so that you can put it in your pocket and spend it, >> which is when you're paying the tax.

[00:04:49]>> That's when you pay the taxes. And so I think most Americans look at that and go, "Yeah, I know that." You know, I understand that what's happening here, but it's just not right that if I get a paycheck and a W2, my incomes my income tax will be higher than the person who gets the stock.

[00:05:06]>> It's the wage earners, right? That's exactly right. And it I think it's really important for your viewers to understand you are in a system right now in this country where the effective tax rate on the top 400 wealthiest people in the United States if you think about their economic income which is their salary but they're not taking salaries because salaries are for suckers.

[00:05:26]They're not taking salaries. They're making capital income and the effective tax rate on them is something like 8 to 10%. That is lower than the tax rate on nurses. That is lower than the tax rate on teachers. And if you were actually in a system where we were able to get a hold of the capacity to tax people, no matter how they make income in a way that is fair and right, you would be a in a system that was collecting a lot more tax revenue from people like Jeff Bezos. You would be collecting a tonical problem though. When we were debating the Green New Deal in 2019, Alexandria Kaziocortez floated a confiscatory tax rate of 60 to 70% on your 10 millionth dollar. Right? That is at the time 16,000 people in the United States paid taxes on their $10 million. You'd raise about $200 billion for a $32 trillion program. The math doesn't make a lot of sense. There's one major fault with the United States tax system. And that's why people feel like the rich are not paying their fair share while the poor are paying their fair share. And that's why also the rich also feel like the poor are not paying as much as they are paying at federal level. You see at federal level the taxes based on things like operation, shipment, import and export meaning those business are usually conducted by the rual people at higher level. As such they get to pay more taxes towards the federal government than the state government. I already told you how the state is working. But in aggregate you check the way the United States tax system works at both even federal level and and state level the individual taxation works.

[00:06:52]It's usually based on the asset cash. It does not tax the capital gain. capital gains are things like stocks and dividends you gain from that and all those other products. He does not majorly focus on that. But how do the rich get rich? They get rich through stock option. They get rich through the dividends and they got this um as a buffer for them to pay more taxes.

[00:07:13]However, for the middle and the lower class, the the most the highest the biggest asset they usually do have is cash. And why do they have more cash?

[00:07:20]Because they take home salaries. um they're involved in small business trade like selling products amongst each other, consumer to consumer sales or sometimes business to consumer sales at the lower level. Meaning they got a lot of cash. You see the tax system is not based on the net worth and one's net worth is based is an aggregate of the asset cash and all those property you own and the capital gains. It's not towards that. It's majorly towards cash.

[00:07:44]So whenever you tax cash, the person with the highest level of cash is definitely bound to pay more. And put even that aside, that is basically at the income level. Then there's also this property taxes that usually put at the at the state level that is also another high tax. And once again the rich they figured out how to escape such taxes that will require more property taxes because just the way they figured out how to escape income tax they can always escape these things related to property taxes. When taxes are increased especially those targeting the property they move to regions with lower taxes.

[00:08:15]And that's that's the complaint you're seeing here with Zoramani. He put pier tax he increased that tax level as such the rich they feel like one of the strategy that they usually use to avoid such taxes is now they're now caught at that level another strategy they use they register the property under corporate organization trust and all these offshore companies and shell companies the company's bound to pay the taxes but not the you have to argue about going after you have to argue about which isn't real So there are very few people out there who are literally getting getting a salary for the $10 million. That would be that's stupid, right?

[00:08:56]>> They have to pay taxes on the house they sit in and can't sell.

[00:08:58]>> Under this system, >> good luck.

[00:09:00]>> It is better to take it as as as as t as stock because you don't have to realize the gains and therefore you don't fall into the 10.

[00:09:08]>> You know what? Can I just be like very specific with you because I think it's helpful. Over a 4-year period, the wealth of the 400 richest people in this country went up by $400 billion. And the amount of federal taxes that they paid into the system was less than 14 billion. That is an effective tax rate of $3.6%.

[00:09:28]>> I understand what you're saying. We do not have a system.

[00:09:30]>> What do you want that money for? Is it merely to compensate the revenue of this? What do you want the money for?

[00:09:35]>> So, just to be clear also, absolutely.

[00:09:36]>> What do you want it to do? Yes, that really does matter. Or is it merely to compensate the well? You know, we just had those go through. Well, first of all, they said they were going to cut billions of dollars. They didn't do it, but they did do massive damage to both domestically and internationally. Then the number of children that are suspected to have died because of Doge in Africa raises my blood pressure every time I even think about that number. It is outrageous and it is unconscionable.

[00:10:03]And then we had the big beautiful bill go through and cut health care for the poorest members of America because they said they wanted to pay for those tax cuts. When you ask somebody what do you want the money for? We want the money for basic improvements a basic improvement for that. Also make sure that that a grandmother doesn't die >> because from a preventable disease because she can't get access to health care in this country. That's what it's for. Noah just asked a question that I'll consider rather comical. He says what? He says what do you want to do with all all those taxes? You want to confiscate them? No, taxes are not confiscated. Taxes are usually collected and driven towards a service. What Zoreni did propose and what other progressives are proposing to ensure to to make equal tax base is to ensure that you know the burden that the poor and the middle class bear is at least relieved. Consider it this way. When the rich pay more taxes or when the rich pay their fair share of taxes then the burden on the poor is relieved as such they have more savings and and they have more disposable income. You know what happens when people have more savings than disposable income? They get to spend more on a society. They get to spend more on luxury. And whenever they spend on all this property, whenever the savings is high or the disposable income is high, still the person who gains the most is usually the rich because when spending under society goes higher, when the disposable income is higher, people take their money to the banks. Who owns shares and stocks in the bank is still the rich. And who also owns a good amount of mutual funds, investment funds is still the rich. And who owns all these retails and all these other system is still the rich that invest on those.

[00:11:42]So one way or the other, the tax proposal though the rich may consider it is a proposal against them. But it also helps them by increasing the amount of saving and disposable income that the lower and the middle class middle class people have. After certain amount of time when you enforce tax equality and you ensure like the rich get to pay their fair share the burden of the poor is at least relieved and the ability to spend it goes high. At one point the tax system continues to become much more equal. A standard tax base for everyone.

[00:12:11]Still the rich get to get get richer because they earn more. As such the amount they're nearly paying less than what they're supposed to pay. the poor will still end the poor will still end up paying more but they won't feel that burden because generally the burden on them is reduced and the society and the society is doing greatly. So in the long run the proposal is okay but the rich are usually driven by corporate greed.

[00:12:35]They want to pack the money. They want to save it for all themselves and they want to pass the burden down to the people and that's why you have issues like um taxes not taxes but propertities and groceries going high because they always want more. They prefer not to absorb the taxes but to pass it. I I do want to go back to to something that Natasha mentioned, which is which is if was Bezos talking about, will raising taxes on me actually help the nurse? As Oruran Mandani, the mayor of New York City, did say, "I know a few teachers in Queens who would beg to differ in response to that." Um, but that kind of gets at the heart of what we're talking about.

[00:13:10]>> Well, don't let's not talk about Zor Montami because he's about to ruin the economy of New York City by chasing the billionaires out and we need their money. We need their they create jobs.

[00:13:20]What set of facts do you have to back that up?

[00:13:22]>> Oh, I don't know. Griffin was just massive $6 billion. HE WAS GOING TO What massive exodus are you talking about?

[00:13:29]>> He was going to hire 6,000. He was going to He was going to hire 6,000.

[00:13:33]>> He said there's a massive exodus from New York City. I would like to know the evidence.

[00:13:36]>> I would like to know Florida. Charles, is your evidence for this?

[00:13:40]>> No. Everybody moving to Florida is not moving from New York. So, I want to know.

[00:13:44]>> No, they are moving from New York.

[00:13:45]>> I'm sorry. What is your What numbers?

[00:13:47]What What What is the source of that? I client our clients very very well they do not want to stay here anymore. What is the source for the data and not you talking what is the source for the data you're sort >> but listen here's the how about how about the fact that Jeff Bezos I think in that exact in that exact have no data we can't just do this whole thing like I know a guy that's not data >> said I'm not generating >> Hang on hang on hang on HANG ON HANG ON I think there's a question >> here's a chart that shows who's who's moving to to to New York who Also the millions too many billionaires holding steady on this chart.

[00:14:29]>> What are you talking about and begging for money from or not? And then there's the question the point that I think you're making which is a tax base, >> right? And and that that they that whether they're leaving or not, let's put that to the side for a second.

[00:14:46]You're I think what you're trying to say is that they are responsible for a lot of the tax.

[00:14:50]>> Tremendous. And Governor Yes. And Governor Kathy Hokll said, "I, Kathy Hokll, am going to go to Florida and go get the billionaires back to New York because we need them in the state of New York." Eric Adams begged them. Mayor Adams beg them, please stay in New York.

[00:15:06]Billionaires have left Mont. All right, we got to leave it there.

[00:15:10]>> Yeah. Does New York really need the billionaires that currently has? Yes, New York really needs the billionaires and billionaires are very significant for the running of New York. Why?

[00:15:19]They boost the economy through their activities like uh production activities and and manufacturing and also all these construction activities. As such, they're the biggest employee in the state. When they're out of the state, the level of employment they bring is low. Or when they decide to move the operation and headquarters and all these other activities elsewhere, they get to pay taxes elsewhere. Those companies can pay taxes elsewhere instead of paying them in New York. So, you really need them to stay in New York. And number two, are they leaving? Like, is there evidence they're living? As of now there there is no documentation that has been put put forth that they're leaving but it's also the this sentiment that has been put forth majorly on the political platform that people are leaving blue cities towards red cities partially that is okay but the number of people that are leaving are middle class people and low-inccome people in New York and in California that number is still increasing but but the number of billionaires who are living is not as much in California the number is slightly high due to the wealth tax that was reduced and so um what's wrong with bamban tax is it wrong to add a pitier tax for a property that is not occupied for a certain period of the year. Two reasons. Uh two things. Sometimes it's wrong. Number two, it's not wrong. Um the property is based on New York and as a a New Yorker, you should be paying taxes. You see, um the way is the property located. That was majorly the argument. It's not like do do you stay there for all that while so your property is there? You should pay property taxes on it. That was the proposal here, which is okay. And why is it wrong? Um they're already paying property taxes. So a pilotary taxes just increases the balance they have to pay on property taxes. As such for some people they may consider it as a progressive move that may sometimes change in the future and their burden may increase in the future. So that's why you hear some of them saying we can consider leaving but do you think it's going to be true that some of these billionaires are going to stop construction New York? know they are not going to stop construction in New York because the level of benefit that you get from New York compared to the number of taxes that you have to pay the math is just um the math shows that they're gaining more than what they're paying.

[00:17:16]So um it's not much of a pain because they also have a lot of money they can sustain this um but however for a certain group of people let's say for the middle class who are transitioning to the upper class or you know some certain people who are transitioning the millionaire class this may not be good for them. They may decide not to have places in York state, they may come for rental activities and hoteling activities. But also if you check the reason why Mdani put forth this proposition is to ensure that less taxes are driven onto the people. You see New York tax budget has never been balanced and for the first time with this proposal it will be balanced and for the first time the city can attend to certain activities to improve the service in the city. Normally New York the people who feel the pain of living in New York and the midland lower income earners. So when these proposals are put forth um they're somehow shielded they able to save on capital they're able to take their children to good schools. So um Bezos says even if you tax him double will that help the teacher in Queens.

[00:18:15]Yes it will help the teacher in Queens and it will help more teachers in in Queens and will help more New Yorkers.

[00:18:19]Actually Bezos it will even make New York more fantastic for you because when expenditures go higher people who buy from Amazon stores will increase. So that is a benefit to you. So you know it's just a characteristic of the rich they cry all the time. they want to cry all the time to get much more favors.

[00:18:34]Okay. So the let's bring the situation in California where a wealth tax a wealth billionaire tax was introduced and they decided all of them to run away and they're moving to Florida. Well that has not yet happened in New York. So the mass migration that you're expecting billionaires moving out of New York towards Florida is not going to happen.

[00:18:52]But also it's more trouble to Florida because as they flock more you know what they do the property taxes go higher.

[00:18:58]Whenever wherever billionaires are, the property taxes usually go higher and services usually go higher because somehow they just drive up the property values. This is already happening in Texas. This already happening in Florida. Meaning um the state may say that we welcoming all these investor, they're coming in here and they bring all the money here. It's okay. But who gets to face that burden? Even in a place like Florida where the tax brackets are really friendly. When you add more billionaires to the system, the cost of services and the cost of products go higher. As such, um the gains that people were making previously or the benefit that they were enjoying previously slightly diminishes or diminishes progressively and over time.

[00:19:40]You see, the movement out of New York and the movement out of uh out of California may just be considered the typical billionaire characteristics, tax avoidance. I mean these are the people who establish shell companies. These in UK you're seeing most of them now living in UK they're going to Dubai or they're going to mana all these tax heavens.

[00:19:59]They're registering their residences.

[00:20:01]They avoid to avoid the taxes in UK. Um the same is happening here in states like New York and and California. They likely to live to places towards like Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina, Texas or maybe Georgia because the tax bracket there ain't that much on them.

[00:20:17]They are the people who are good at escaping responsibility and the rich are good at making themselves rich and they demanding more. So one way to be man more is always to avoid the taxes and should they be taxed more? Should they be taxed fairly? Should they be taxed like other people? Yes. If you want to in the long run make the society better just as I told just as I argue when you make the tax system more equitable uh people the middle class and the lower class get to spend more because they have a higher disposable income that only makes the rich richer but they don't see it that way because that requires time but you you follow the procedure 2 years to towards 5 years time you start seeing the effects