‘Everyone Is Lying to You for Money’ — Ben McKenzie on Crypto

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[00:00:00]Can you explain in like two dumbed down sentences what is cryptocurrency?

[00:00:06]>> I'll do it in one. It's a get-rich quick scheme.

[00:00:08]>> You are an actor. You did the OC. Do you think the OC introduced an entire American generation to class politics?

[00:00:14]What about the people who say, "What the [ __ ] does Ben McKenzie know about crypto?"

[00:00:17]>> I have an economics degree. I've spent four or five years looking at it. I've interviewed two of the esteemed members of the crypto industry for >> both of whom are in prison.

[00:00:25]>> Who are now in prison. Crypto couldn't fulfill any of the functions of money.

[00:00:28]You can't buy and sell stuff with crypto.

[00:00:29]>> If I go to my neighborhood deli in Brooklyn and try to buy a bagel with Bitcoin, they're going to look at me like I'm crazy.

[00:00:34]>> A lot of crypto folks have got pardons from Trump. Are you surprised at how identified with crypto Trump has become?

[00:00:41]>> If you're a Democrat and you're having a hard time choosing between people and corporations, my humble suggestion is to get the [ __ ] out of the party. Why the [ __ ] is the guy from the OC doing a tougher interview of Sam Bankman Freed than the people on CNBC, Fox Business, Bloomberg, CNN?

[00:00:58]>> What is going on?

[00:00:58]>> Why me? You need me to do it? Ryan, >> American media.

[00:01:03]>> American media, folks.

[00:01:12]>> I'm Mandy Husten. I'm Ben McKenzie.

[00:01:15]>> And we're not kidding. We're in a podcast from Zatea where I get to talk to fun people about funny things and serious things. Ben, welcome to the show.

[00:01:22]>> Ah, thank you for having me.

[00:01:23]>> You're not known for your comedy, though. You're known for a lot of serious roles.

[00:01:26]>> I'm not.

[00:01:26]>> But I just watched your documentary that we're going to be talking about today, and you were very funny in it. Thank you.

[00:01:30]>> I I laughed. I shouldn't really be laughing in a very serious documentary about about people losing money, but I I did laugh. Um, we're going to talk to It's called Everyone Is Lying to You For Money. Um, we're going to talk about the film in a moment. Uh, but we got to talk about a lot of other things first. First of all, we're in DC. You're a New Yorker. Are you in DC often?

[00:01:47]>> No. Not often.

[00:01:48]>> Do you like DC?

[00:01:49]>> No.

[00:01:50]>> It's great.

[00:01:50]>> But you're from Austin, Texas. Yes.

[00:01:52]Which is a great city.

[00:01:53]>> It is a great city. Although it used to be greater before Elon moved there.

[00:01:57]>> That's true. Joe Rogan is also there.

[00:01:59]Freeman is kind of podcast bro capital.

[00:02:01]>> Yes. There's there the Cyber Trucks are somewhat against the original ethos of Austin.

[00:02:06]>> We we the you know the slogan is keep Austin weird, but we didn't mean that kind of weird. Well, there's one thing Elon Musk has to borrow a line from coming to get very weird. Um, and you're you're Ben McKenzie, but you're actually Ben McKenzie Shanken. From watching this doc, I realize you have a much fuller name. Yes.

[00:02:22]>> Your grandfather was very impressive.

[00:02:25]Robert F. Shankin, who helped pass the public broadcasting act in 1967.

[00:02:30]>> Your uncle, also called Robert Shanken, is a Tony and Pulitzer award-winning playright.

[00:02:35]>> Mhm. So, is this documentary just you trying to show the world that you can do serious substantive stuff, not just the OC, which is what most people know him for?

[00:02:43]>> Yes. Did I grow up with a chip on my shoulder? Is that the >> Did you go a documentary? Why yes, I will do a documentary on finance.

[00:02:51]>> Yeah, I never thought I would be doing exactly this. But yeah, I mean, I was raised with uh I got to, you know, be around my grandfather for a while before he passed. And u he was a very impressive person. Um he was of that generation where you know he was the son of immigrants, first person in his family to go to college and he um you know did all of this incredible work and was really in the Austin community sort of one of the lynch pens of of creating a a cultural uh environment where where Austin you know I'm not going to give him credit for all of it but but he does get some >> he was a big figure and the public broadcasting act was a big deal >> and then his grandson does the OC Exactly.

[00:03:31]>> I mean, the OC was a huge show.

[00:03:33]>> It It was very sweet. So, he he got to see the OC part and he was really proud of me.

[00:03:38]>> That's amazing >> because he was an actor before he became the guy. And then >> he's got a great story. Can I tell the great story? All right. So, so it's World War II.

[00:03:47]>> He's uh he's met what would be his his his soon wife. He's got you he wants to propose to her.

[00:03:53]>> Uh he gets leave from the army. She gets leave from the USO. She's also an actress. And um he takes her on a carriage ride through Central Park and he gets down on one knee and pops a question and she says, "I'll marry you on one condition. You can't be an actor."

[00:04:09]>> Cuz she knew how tough it was.

[00:04:10]>> Oh.

[00:04:11]>> And he says, "I thought it's not cuz he's shit."

[00:04:12]>> Yeah. No, no, no. He was a very handsome man. You look a picture of him back in the day. He he he probably was quite good. But um and he says, "Sure, done."

[00:04:21]You know, and he never and he never looked back.

[00:04:23]>> Wow. But then he did lots of substantive things.

[00:04:25]>> Exactly.

[00:04:25]>> And then he produced. We don't all have to be actors to get our validation.

[00:04:28]>> But then you are an actor. You did the OC. And I got to start off with an admission. So my team and I are sitting around. Ben McKenzie's coming on the show. We're going to talk about the documentary. We're going to talk about Gotham, another show you were in that I watched, >> but you're perhaps most famous as Ryan Atwood in the OC. Yeah.

[00:04:43]>> And I had a discussion with my producer and I said, "Should I lie and pretend I've seen the show?" And then we said, "No, why should we?" And then I watched your dock and you seem quite frustrated in the dock that wherever you go people say Ryan Atwood they go we want to hold on you're OC even when it's got nothing to do with. So then I felt kind of happy. I was like well he's not going to get that from me.

[00:05:03]>> He's going to get no OC love from me cuz I I don't know who Ryan Atwood is.

[00:05:06]>> But I mean I hope from the doc you see that I I have whether by force or will like been I have to have a sense of humor about >> Yeah. And you've lent into it. I think you told Senator Van Holland you could call me right that way. Yes, I did >> in your in your Senate hearing. Liking this video? Then don't just watch, hit like, share, and subscribe, and tap the bell so you never miss a video or live show. But if you want early access to exclusive content, then you have to head to zateo.com and subscribe now. You'll be supporting Fearless Independent Journalism. That was a huge show though.

[00:05:37]Uh it was very big for a certain generation. It was a global phenomenon.

[00:05:40]You were 25 years old when the show premiered, I believe.

[00:05:43]>> Yeah. 24. 25. and you instantly become one of the most famous TV stars in the world. You're on these lists of like the best looking in Hollywood. Um, how did you not get [ __ ] up by that experience? How are you quite normal today from what I can see?

[00:05:57]>> Yeah, well, you don't know me that well.

[00:05:58]Uh, uh, >> you're doing a great job of acting.

[00:06:01]>> Exactly. Uh, uh, that's a good question.

[00:06:04]I would say luck uh, in many ways, but well, actually, of the young cast members on the OC, I was the only one who had been to college and graduated from college. And I do think uh for me university um my econ degree uh that I wasn't using much. Um I think that helped. I think it helped to have a perspect perspective outside of Hollywood. I I am not. It's funny. I was 25 playing a teenager. I've been asked >> as this often the case.

[00:06:27]>> Yeah. I've been asked, you know, or or it's assumed that I was a a teenage actor, you know, like a child actor. I was not at all. I was a high school football player in Austin, Texas. And then um went to the University of Virginia, was studying economics.

[00:06:41]really the social life at UVA at the time was dominated by fraternities and sororities and that really was not my vibe. Um and I needed a way to have a social life slash meet women and uh a buddy well a guy who would become a buddy had a had a play and um Romeo and Juliet.

[00:06:59]>> Okay.

[00:06:59]>> And uh I just >> And certainly a place to be women.

[00:07:01]>> Yep. And I was not Romeo I was Frier Lawrence.

[00:07:04]>> Okay.

[00:07:04]>> Um but it was a big big hit and uh and I and I fell in love.

[00:07:07]>> A UVA performance. UVA. Not far from here.

[00:07:09]>> Yeah. He he he did a thing where he uh UVA has a pretty rough racial history and he um and was still self segregated at the time. There was a thing affectionately known as the uh BBS, the black bus stop, where like all of the black students would basically live in certain dorms after a certain point and the white students would live elsewhere.

[00:07:27]Yeah. A little So he he cast the Capulet as as white actors and the Montigus as black and this took off. We made CBS national newsow. Um, yeah, it was a big deal and I was like, "This is fun. I want to do this more." You know, >> so you have that ground and you end up in the OC. You don't go crazy after becoming super famous.

[00:07:46]>> Yeah.

[00:07:47]>> On the show, you play a kid from a poorer socioeconomic background who goes to live with an extremely wealthy family in the Orange County. Uh, do you think the OC introduced an entire American generation to class politics?

[00:07:59]>> I do think there was a little bit of more than a little bit of that. Um, but it was also, I mean, to be sort of honest about it, it was also sort of a celebration of the wealth to to some degree or, you know, soap opery juice.

[00:08:14]>> We're looking through the window.

[00:08:15]>> Yeah. Our track record is uh I would say it's very positive. People love the show and I understand why I'm proud of the show, but we also, you know, off of the OC came Laguna Beach, the reality series, which then got Real Housewives of u Laguna Beach the entire Real Housewives series. So our uh our legacy our legacy is quite varied I would say.

[00:08:37]>> So your own acting legacy means you go on to a show that I did watch which was Gotham.

[00:08:42]>> Wait, you skipped Southland?

[00:08:43]>> I I didn't watch Southland, so I'm skipping South.

[00:08:45]>> But it's a good show for the for the people that are really into it. They're really into it.

[00:08:48]>> Fine. We're not going to go through every show you >> I know. I know. I'm not >> We're going to go to Gotham that I watched and I enjoyed and I loved you and premiered in 2014. This was part of the Batman universe. This is a prequel.

[00:08:57]This is a young Bruce Wayne, but the show is not about Bruce Wayne. He's a character in it. about a young Jim Gordon and his partner and that's you.

[00:09:03]You played uh Lieutenant Eventually Commissioner Jim Gordon. Were you a big Batman fan before you got cast in that show?

[00:09:08]>> Yeah, I was actually and I was not a superhero fan because I always felt the superpowers were sort of annoying and just sort of escapist.

[00:09:15]>> So, you're not a Superman guy. You're a Batman guy.

[00:09:17]>> I'm a Batman guy because in the Batman world they don't have superpowers. They they're messed up mentally and they do all kinds of weird stuff. But >> it was a very dark show.

[00:09:24]>> It was a very dark show. Yeah. I mean, the only thing that I look back on and goof is the violence is really a lot.

[00:09:31]>> I enjoyed it.

[00:09:31]>> Uh, I bet you did. It was so fun, though. I mean, to play cops and robbers in the world of Batman >> as an adult.

[00:09:40]>> Yeah.

[00:09:40]>> In with the money the the the money to actually make it look cool and make me look cool. Um, it was uh I mean, it was a dream. It was a dream. My only regret is that my kids weren't old enough at the time and so they they >> Have they watched it yet? Are they old enough to watch it? Yeah.

[00:09:55]>> Yeah. Now it's sort of like uh whatever, Dad. You know, like nobody cares.

[00:09:59]>> Although you have those kids cuz of Gotham.

[00:10:02]>> Yeah.

[00:10:03]>> You met your wife.

[00:10:04]>> I met my wife. I met Marina uh on on the show and uh yeah, changed my life in so many so many ways. And also brought me back to New York.

[00:10:11]>> It was a pretty big change. Like you go to a TV show and you meet your wife.

[00:10:14]>> Yeah. And I mean talk about luck. I met like >> who's also your love interested in the show.

[00:10:18]>> Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

[00:10:20]>> Um, if you had to pick one Batman actor to be in a Batman movie with, who would you pick? And you can't choose David Mazus who played uh, Batman or the young Bruce Wayne in Gotham. Would you be Michael Keaton, Val Kilmer, George Clooney, Christian Bale, Ben Affleck, or Robert Patson.

[00:10:36]>> Oh my god.

[00:10:39]I guess I would choose Christian Bale just because I >> answer I would have chose Christian Bale >> or Michael Keon.

[00:10:44]>> Yeah. Yeah. I I do know >> George Clooney.

[00:10:49]I do like George's work, but um I not from that particular movie as he makes fun of often. Um but uh I I the Michael Keaton Batmans are still my favorite Batman's >> um because that was what I grew up on as as a kid and that and that really was revolutionary at the time, right? When when Nicholson played the Joker and you went into the cinema, it it because previous to that they were so hokey, they were so ridiculous.

[00:11:12]>> The TV show, >> all of them, all of the stuff. Just going back to Marina who you met at Gotham. She and we're going to get to your documentary, but she has a hilarious role in your new documentary, which is basically to just roll her eyes every time you you're about to set off to find some truth and the camera cuts to her. You're you're the director of the film and it cuts to her and she's just drinking her wine and rolling her eyes. Yeah.

[00:11:36]>> Is Is that how it is in the in the household?

[00:11:39]>> Yes. Well, that's that's the charming version of it. Yeah. I mean, we're laughing because we were talking earlier about commiserating about this, but yeah, I mean, you know, the the grace that she has shown and the patience she has demonstrated is really kind of >> because this was a long project.

[00:11:55]>> It was a long pro. It's I started at least I've turned the cameras on in 22, so it's four years. Um, I was sort of researching it online even before then.

[00:12:04]Um, she's been incredibly patient. Um, she's also in many ways, you know, I talk to women about cryptocurrency. It's such a male thing.

[00:12:12]>> That's so true. and and so many of them have been lectured by some bro about crypto. She is effectively a surrogate for the entire female population.

[00:12:21]>> I didn't think of that when I was watching, but that's a very good way of thinking. So, look, let's get going with the movie. It is called Everyone Is Lying to You for Money. Uh it is uh it's been in cinemas since April 17th. Um let's have a watch of a little bit of the trailer.

[00:12:34]>> Cryptocurrency.

[00:12:36]It's pretty stupid.

[00:12:39]>> No balls, right? You might recognize Ben McKenzie from the OC.

[00:12:43]>> He's been a critic of the cryptocurrency industry. To understand my journey into cryptocurrency, we have to go back.

[00:12:50]>> You know what's taking off? It's Bitcoin.

[00:12:52]>> It's money.

[00:12:53]>> It's a It's cryptocurrency.

[00:12:54]>> Stop saying cryptocurrency. I don't know what the mean.

[00:12:56]>> Wait, what does this like? Look, >> I have a degree in economics. Surely I can figure out this crypto stuff.

[00:13:03]>> No banks, no fees.

[00:13:05]>> Electronic gold. Have >> a good time with your mortgage. Now take all your money, buy Bitcoin.

[00:13:10]>> But I had a few questions.

[00:13:16]>> Up against a multi- trillion dollar industry shield by every celebrity on the planet, I hired a film crew.

[00:13:22]>> Nice to meet you.

[00:13:24]>> Did you talk to my agent yet?

[00:13:26]>> I thought we would cut out there on Mara.

[00:13:29]Hilarious. So you are an economics grad from UVA. You actually studied economics. Uh, I did a little bit too at college, but I don't pretend to be an expert, so I enjoyed uh, watching this.

[00:13:38]Um, what is cryptocurrency? Because you say to your friend Dave, in that clip we saw in the trailer, you say, "What the [ __ ] is cryptocurrency?" That's the start of the project in 2020. And can you explain to those of us who still don't get it in like two dumbed down sentences? What is cryptocurrency?

[00:13:57]>> I'll do it in one.

[00:13:58]>> Okay.

[00:13:59]>> Oh, maybe I actually need two. Hold on.

[00:14:00]Uh, well, it's a get-rich quick scheme is the the the foundation.

[00:14:05]>> That's the foundation. But what actually is it? Like I don't >> Well, then I'm going to need more than two sentences. So, one of the things that I bumped on um was the word currency because, you know, if you know any you don't need an econ degree to know that with something with money, you can buy stuff with it, sell things.

[00:14:23]>> Um, it's called medium exchange. Uh, in economics, currencies do three things.

[00:14:26]They're a medium of exchange. You can buy and sell stuff with them. They're a unit of account. Uh you can run your books with them and they're a store of value. Their value stays relatively consistent over time. Cryptocurrency, it was very clear from you minute one of me looking at this that well maybe the first few days. Crypto couldn't fulfill any of the functions of money.

[00:14:45]>> You can't buy and sell stuff with crypto.

[00:14:46]>> If I go to my neighborhood deli in Brooklyn and try to buy a bagel with Bitcoin, they're going to look at me like I'm crazy. Um it's not used as money anywhere in the world unless it's being used as sort of a black market form of money for criminal activity. You go to El Salvador to see if they're actually using it if Bouquet the president and you find that no one wants to take your Bitcoin.

[00:15:04]>> Exactly. And we can talk about why that is, but it but it couldn't fulfill that function or wasn't fulfilling that function. I guess I didn't know why, but we can talk about it. Part of it is actually about the technology. Um, and the other two functions, the unit of account store of value, its price is so volatile. You know, Bitcoin is jumping around like a rabbit on a fetamines. It could never be a real currency. Imagine, you know, your bagel is like, you know, $3 one day and then five and then one and then, you know, what would happen is people would hoard their money and the entire economy would would implode. It'd be like, well, anyway, so it couldn't fulfill any of the three functions of money. And so then the natural question is, all right, well, what is it? Um, if it's not money and you know, if you're putting money into it, hoping to make money off of it through no work of your own, that sounds like an investment. And yet crypto had not been classified that way. It had been classified as a commodity rather than a security. I know this is all very you know technical sounding but is huge difference because securities laws have securities have all these laws >> that protect investors >> regulations >> regulations meaning um you need to know basically securities laws are predicated on disclosure you need to know who you're giving your money to and what they're doing with the money and the cryptocurrency industry does not want that to uh exist. Why? Uh because it's a lot harder to run a scam when you're um when you're doing that. a scam. I've got that written down here. Is it a scam? Is it a con? Is it [ __ ] Is it not real?

[00:16:27]>> Yes.

[00:16:28]>> That's your conclusion from four years of looking at this.

[00:16:31]>> Yeah. So, so uh so there's boy, there's a lot of different ways of explaining this. So, um if it's an investment, what is it an investment in? Um so what crypto is is uh what blockchain is the fundamental technology underneath cryptocurrency is a ledger an appendon ledger just a record of transactions so but it's a synonymous ledger where the identity of the people transacting is obscured so uh really I mean just at a basic level who is that going to appeal to um criminals quite frankly um and that was the original use case of crypto its first use case uh so crypto started with this uh this academic paper that was dropped online on a cryptography mailing list in late 2008, height of the subprime crisis. And it said basically um wouldn't it be great if we could transact directly? If people can transact directly and not use these banks that were that are always hated and were particularly hated at the time, understandably um which sounds like a good idea. Um but it really didn't take off. There was really because why give this thing value? Um, and then the a thing called the Silk Road came into existence, which was a dark web uh drug marketplace.

[00:17:43]>> Donald Trump just pardoned the uh guy behind that.

[00:17:45]>> Correct. And uh and there Bitcoin found a use case. Oh, if I want to buy drugs online, I don't want to pay dollars through my bank, right? That's a bad idea. So, I'm going to pay in Bitcoin.

[00:17:56]But how do you get the Bitcoin? You have to buy that with real dollars.

[00:17:58]>> Yeah. Or you mine it. Back in the day when it wasn't so competitive, you could mine it. So the way new bitcoins are produced is computers run simple mathematical calculations and there's a there's a random chance of them earning a bitcoin, winning a bitcoin.

[00:18:12]>> But who's deciding on this? If there's no regulation, who's who's behind all this >> about a crypto?

[00:18:17]>> Yeah.

[00:18:17]>> Well, there is there is some elegance to Bitcoin specifically in that there is not a a single person who is running it.

[00:18:24]Um I will say that separates it from the other cryptocurrencies in some ways. Uh right now, however, you can't I mean, you could try mining your own Bitcoin, but you're never going to get one because it's so competitive that now the majority of the Bitcoin that are mined are mined from multi-billion dollar publicly traded corporations. So, the decentralized democratized future of money is brought to you by >> indeed these huge >> as is often the case with these kind of things.

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[00:19:51]Just listening to you speak, I'm not listening to Ryan Atwood from the OC.

[00:19:55]I'm listening to a guy who knows his [ __ ] Where does this urge come from for you to investigate cryptocurrency? We see the scene in the film and again I highly encourage everyone to watch the film where you're talking to your friend during the pandemic and it could have just been a hobby during the pandemic.

[00:20:10]You wrote a book too by the way I should point out you co-authored a book with Jacob Silverman who's written for Sateo 2, great journalist. Um how does where does this come from that you this actor is suddenly it's not just a you know a hobby or a side interest um you are spending a lot of your time energy you're getting attacked by people online as we see in the documentary you're turning up in front of Congress what drove you to have so much interest in this one particular issue I >> I think I was raised with a sense of social justice I was raised with a with a an an ethos of you know what you do uh for your community and for the rest of society is as important if not more important than what you do for yourself.

[00:20:47]And that's certainly what my grandfather modeled was starting the uh with helping uh get public radio and television going. Um but it's also my father. My father um is an attorney, has represented Planned Parenthood in Texas as they were under attack and does has done a lot of great work. Um and my mother is was a >> So you saw this as a justice issue. I need to call these people out.

[00:21:07]>> People are getting people are getting scammed.

[00:21:09]>> Yeah. I mean early on uh I was just trying to understand it but very quickly it it it's it stunk because if these are investments right >> so at the time in 2021 all the celebrities were selling it right it's all of these celebrities >> and that drove me crazy because >> we see you getting mad at Matt Damon in the film >> very mad yes yes if >> I love Matt Damon >> I mean his work is great >> but it wasn't his finest hour >> not his finest hour to say the least >> you really call him out in the film has he watched the film do we think has he reached out to you.

[00:21:39]>> I mean, I sent him a screener. He hasn't written back. Um, he's very awkward at >> busy trying to cast you in his next film to reward you for pointing out the lowest moment of >> Yeah. Yeah. I have I have a sense that I may not get into a Matt Damon movie anytime soon. Or maybe >> he was one of the people advertising Shaquille O'Neal. There's a bunch of people in the film.

[00:21:55]>> Oh, yeah. Tom Brady, uh, Aniselle at the time, uh, you know, Gwennneth Paltra. I mean, the list is, you'll see it's it's it's we do a little mashup and it's like dozens and dozens of hundreds. Yeah. I mean, if there's one thing I knew right at the outset from crypto, like it doesn't take being an investigative journalist to understand that Matt Damon doesn't know [ __ ] all about crypto. And so why is he selling it, right? Is he getting paid in crypto? My guess is he's getting paid in dollars. So he's getting paid in dollars to convince you to change your dollars into something else.

[00:22:25]That is perhaps not explicitly offering you financial advice, but it is certainly implicitly doing so, I would say. What about the people in the film we see the crypto I don't know what to call them evangelists bros well there's a woman in one of the one of the scenes you play of attacking you what people say what the [ __ ] does Ben McKenzie know about crypto >> I mean where to begin I have an economics degree I've spent four or five years looking at it I've interviewed two of the esteemed members of the crypto industry forum >> both of whom are in prison >> who are now in prison >> you interviewed them at the height of their powers um let's talk about one of them the most famous one Sam Bankman Freed who is uh the founder of FTX. Um a hero who was on the front of Forbes magazine, Fortune magazine, profiled everywhere, hanging out with prominent members of Congress. Uh this is a clip from your now very famous interview, which everyone should remember was well before everyone hated Sam Bankman Freed or thought he was a criminal. Let's play that.

[00:23:21]>> When you look at the contributions that I've made, most of those have to have to do with pandemic preparedness. Totally unrelated to my day job. How much money have you donated to things like that?

[00:23:32]>> I want to say ballpark.

[00:23:36]Um 50 to 100 million.

[00:23:39]>> Wow. 50 to 100 million to pandemic.

[00:23:42]>> Yeah, that's right.

[00:23:43]>> How much have you donated to politicians?

[00:23:45]>> So I uh um I don't remember the late I I can get back to you on that. I don't remember the latest figure off the top of my round number. I I think Um, I think that, you know, in the tens of millions is is where total political contributions have been so far.

[00:24:10]>> Sam, you really need to >> Okay, got Yeah.

[00:24:12]>> Um, thanks for taking the time.

[00:24:14]>> Thank you.

[00:24:15]>> Appreciate it. Can we do a Can we do a picture?

[00:24:17]>> Can we do a picture? Um, classic PR move jumping in there saying we're out of time. We got to go somewhere else right now. I hope that doesn't happen in this interview. But classic moment there, which I by the way, I'm just gonna clap because I don't know if you know about my career, but I do tough interviews.

[00:24:31]>> Oh, I know.

[00:24:32]>> So, I'm very proud of the fact that I do hard interviews and I get very upset with American media softball interviews.

[00:24:37]So, I'm watching this, I'm like, why the [ __ ] is the guy from the OC doing a tougher interview of Sam Bankman Freed than the people on CNBC, Fox Business, Bloomberg, CNN?

[00:24:48]>> What is going on?

[00:24:49]>> Why you need ME TO DO IT? RYAN, >> the American media. the American media, folks. The the the incredible American media.

[00:24:57]>> We slam the media every week on the show, whether it's about Gaza or Trump.

[00:24:59]But it's interesting to talk about financial journalists get a pass. And we should talk for a moment about financial and tech journalists, both of whom were taken in by this guy. And I don't know why.

[00:25:10]>> I mean, I think >> Do you feel like you were going to get taken in at any point?

[00:25:13]>> Was I going to get taken?

[00:25:14]>> Did you Did you get bowled over by his charisma and brilliance? Cuz he seems to have char >> I'm drinking out of a mud that says fraud investigator. No, I was not about to. No. I mean, why did all the financial media establishment, why did all the big anchor, why did they think this guy, he's on the front page of multiple magazines, it's clearly a scam, as you said.

[00:25:30]>> Yeah, I don't know. I mean, look, it obviously varies from from person to person, outlet to outlet. There are some outlets that are completely in the tank for crypto. You know, there there are crypto outlets like are they covering the the industry uncritically. There's there's paytoplay. There's there's, you know, actual money being transferred there. I I would obviously not use any specific examples. I don't want to be sued, but this is a known thing that happens in the industry. Uh then slightly above that is sort of you know the finance as entertainment section which is CNBC and places like that which they just want a show. They want a carnival. They don't really want >> and he's a character >> and he's a character and he's a great character, right? Cuz he's the misunderstood wonderkin >> household hair shorts billionaire.

[00:26:07]>> Yeah, exactly. California golden boy. Um speaks about giving his money away. He's in effective ultra. He's an altruist.

[00:26:14]Um, >> just to remind people watching at home, he's actually a convicted criminal in prison right now for 25 years from all sorts of laundering charges and corrupt >> and stealing his his client's money, stealing customer.

[00:26:23]>> Did you know in that moment that he was full of [ __ ] Were you sitting there?

[00:26:25]>> Absolutely.

[00:26:26]>> I didn't know exactly what he was up to, but it was very very I mean, you don't have to be, you know, a student of uh uh human body language, human behavior to sort of think. He seems pretty nervous there about the politician thing. I couldn't figure out exactly why he hesitated so much because it was public record that he had given to Biden and the Democrats. He' given 40 million. It was a huge >> What people didn't know is he admits it later. He had also given to the Republicans in secret Democrats in public.

[00:26:50]>> Exactly. He was actually running or allegedly running a $und00 million straw donor scheme and giving to the Republicans via cutouts being his employees. One of his employees is now in jail, Ryland Salem, doing um seven and a half years for making illegal political contributions. So, um, he was playing both sides, as you would do in Washington if you wanted to get anything done.

[00:27:09]>> Well, he's now, uh, trying to suck up to Trump like most people in prison are because he wants a pardon. And Trump has given pardons, as we said, the Silk Road guy and, uh, the Binance guy and a lot of crypto folks have got pardons from Trump. What do you make of Donald Trump and his family going all in on crypto with their meme coins and their world liberty financial crypto fund? They launched that in the middle of an election campaign. Just totally normal thing to do. Are you surprised at how identified with crypto Trump has become?

[00:27:37]Because we're taping this just days before he's about to host a conference at Mara Lago where we believe he's going to launch a new memecoin.

[00:27:45]>> So the book that I wrote with Jacob Silverman, first of all, I met Jacob Silverman, co-author of the book, because he'd written an article in 2021, even Donald Trump knows Bitcoin is a scam.

[00:27:55]>> He did. He was calling it a scam as recently as 2021. And I thought that was funny and I like Jacob's perspective.

[00:28:01]Um, I did not see Trump's turn coming, but of course, as soon as it started happening, I was like, of course, it's gonna happen. Of course, because why didn't Donald Trump like cryptocurrency?

[00:28:13]There's a lot of money laundering in real estate.

[00:28:16]>> There's a lot of money laundering in cryptocurrency.

[00:28:19]>> Yeah, >> I think perhaps Trump was upset he wasn't getting his cut.

[00:28:22]>> It's also easy money, right? And there's a lot of scamming and a lot of I mean, if Donald Trump knows anything in life, he doesn't know many things, but he knows how to scam people. Well, he knows how to He's a con man who sees marks.

[00:28:32]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, the subtitle of our book, Easy Money, is cryptocurrency, casino capitalism, and the golden age of fraud. And the golden age of fraud is a term uh coined by Jim Chenos, a legendary shorteller. But it is really personified by Trump, right? I mean, the the convicted fraudster president, the the guy who whose company was convicted of 34 accounts uh by a jury. the the fraudsterers turn to selling the fraudulent currency is, you know, maybe the most vivid illustration of the fraudulence of this whole endeavor.

[00:29:02]>> But for you, it must be super depressing because you spent years following this stuff. The only solution is regulation.

[00:29:07]We've heard that from some Democrats like Elizabeth Warren and others. And you see that in the Senate hearing that you do with Kevin Olirri, another person who did a U-turn on this, another Trump person. And then you have the president of the United States embrace this. Yeah.

[00:29:19]There's no way you're getting any kind of regulation or accountability when they're going out when he's launching his own freaking meme coin.

[00:29:26]>> Yeah. No, I mean >> worthless coins, whatever they call stable coins.

[00:29:29]>> Absolutely. And and and so where does that leave us for me? It leaves us in a position of calling them out, of course, doing what I can there. Um unfortunately, the Republican party under Trump is, you know, completely subservient. They're never going to do anything about this issue. So we can only keep our house in order on the Democratic side. So, one of my goals is to shame, ruthlessly, relentlessly shame the Democrats, the elite Democrat leaders who are also subservient to crypto because I assume of political donations.

[00:30:00]>> You're in a state with you're in New York.

[00:30:02]>> Yeah.

[00:30:02]>> Both Democratic senators, Gilly Brand in particular, has been very pro crypto.

[00:30:06]>> Gillibbran's very pro crypto. Schumer is is apparently working behind the scenes to position his caucus uh correctly on the issue because he knows how much money they have.

[00:30:18]>> They're worried about election pack spending against some crypto packs have become very influential actually.

[00:30:22]>> Yeah. And I mean to give you like a like a very sort of clear example of what I'm talking about. Uh last year uh a bill was signed into law, the Genius Act.

[00:30:31]Yes.

[00:30:31]>> Which if you know this Congress and it's called the Genius Act, it's got to be stupid. And uh it it um it allows corporations to issue their own money in the form of stable coins. So which are uh cryptos that are pegged one to one with with real US dollar with real currencies like US dollar. So it's literal corporate money. It's literally corporations giving corporations. Yeah.

[00:30:50]I mean does that seem like a good idea?

[00:30:52]Um and for the Democrats 100 Democrats voted for it including Hakeim Jeff, including my congressman Dan Goldman, which is why I'm supporting Brad Lander for Congress. If you're a Democrat and you're having a hard time choosing between people and corporations, my humble suggestion is to get the [ __ ] out of the party. Like, we have to model >> good behavior here. We can't control them. But when when Donald Trump wins an election, in part because of this relatively thin slice of the American public that can't really distinguish between the parties. We can criticize them.

[00:31:29]in the mirror and realize that the reason that they can't do that is because of this kind of [ __ ] It's ridiculous.

[00:31:34]>> And so that's what we can do in 2026 is hold them to account.

[00:31:38]>> By the way, it's very funny to have Donald Trump being so pro crypto when actually the Iranians are doing very good of benefiting off of crypto. The Russians, although he's quite pally with the Russians, but the Iranians who he claims to hate. Yes.

[00:31:48]>> They they want to charge the tolls in the straight of Hormuz with cryptocurrency with Bitcoin, which I find fascinating. Um, >> do you want do you want a further wrinkle on that?

[00:31:56]>> Usually the crypto that they use is uh uh a stable coin called Tether. Uh, Tether is the largest crypto uh stable coin company 180 plus billion dollars.

[00:32:07]Uh, and uh, Tether's broker is uh, Caner Fitzgerald.

[00:32:11]>> Okay. Which is Howard uh, commerce secretary. Yeah. My god.

[00:32:15]>> So they manage the >> what a circular world. I want to come back to Democrats and Republicans in a moment, but just on on the documentary, you interview Sam Bankman Freed. You go to El Salvador, you talk about President Ba there, and then there's this really powerful moment in the middle of the film where you talk uh to real people who lost money in the Celsius crypto bankruptcy in 2022. The CEO of that firm, you interview him in the film.

[00:32:38]He's now in prison. Um you interview people who lost money and there's this one guy who's crying with tears about losing his life savings, maybe losing access to his daughter. Um and you're crying, too. There's a real human cost.

[00:32:51]>> Absolutely. And I'm sometimes accused by shills within the industry of being anti these guys, the guys that are investing in it. That's that's ridiculous. I'm I'm doing it to protect them, to help them. And why? Because the industry doesn't give a [ __ ] about them.

[00:33:10]They're trying to exploit them. Do you ever see the crypto industry do anything other than some performative like, "Oh, I'm sorry you lost your money. It's too bad we can't help you." You know, the blockchain, sorry. And that's that is actually one way that this doesn't work.

[00:33:22]So a blockchain is an appendon ledger, meaning it's irreversible. If you send your crypto somewhere, you can't get it back. And the advocates will say, "Isn't that great?"

[00:33:33]But in a imagine that was the real world and say your credit card got got stolen, right? And you went to the bank and like, "Sorry, blockchain. We can't we can't reverse the charges." um this doesn't work and it's an excuse uh >> to screw over the little guy >> and and and it's and it's a gold mine for criminals. Right. Right. The irreversible irreversibility of the ledger is helpful. But >> here's the and I'm not ruining the film.

[00:33:55]You can watch the film. But there is this crazy twist where the guy who's crying at the end of the film, he says he's still in crypto. Quote, "I'm still in the game." He says, "This is the guy we saw moments earlier crying because he lost all his money. He's like, "I'm still in crypto." Sounds to me like a cult.

[00:34:14]>> Yes. At at at the base level at the sort of 5 to 6% of the population that's really really into this and it is that small. Five to six%. I mean it's a big country so it's a lot of people but still uh it's a cult. It it takes on feelings. There's a great uh paper uh when prophecy fails uh about the dynamics of a cult. Um what happens when the cult leaders prognostications don't come true? What happens when the world doesn't end? Do the cult members suddenly have a revelation and just, you know, discard their their their uh belief or do they double down? They double down. If if you are so invested in this, it's it's actually more painful to admit that you're wrong, you've been conned, you've been lied to. Um you need to double down in order to sort of maintain that cognitive dissonance. I feel like at the heart of this documentary is that the crypto industry has been able to take advantage of the fact that our financial and our economic systems are deeply flawed, deeply corrupt, deeply unequal. They do screw over the little guys. They are undemocratic in many ways. And then crypto comes along and presents itself as the solution, as the democratic decentralized way of helping ordinary people, not those evil big banks. And I feel of course it's not as you've pointed out today and in the film but the existing economic system opened the door to it.

[00:35:32]>> Absolutely 100%. If crypto teaches us anything is that we have to fix our our our actual economic system, financial system. I mean it is it's as simple as that. Um and that story like such a simple story it gets so so far. I think that you know there's a lot of different ways I could take the sort of where what we need to do. Um, but I've been going around speaking out about this publicly.

[00:35:57]Um, why do we have billionaires? Um, imagine a world in which the thousand or so billionaires that exist that hold now, I don't know, 5 trillion dollars worth of wealth or something as much wealth as the bottom 50% of the country altogether. Imagine that they get to keep the first billion. So, you know, you're welcome. You know, you benefited off of all of us and our work and everything. So, good for you. you get to keep a billion. Um, and you can buy houses and cars and boats and planes and you can live off the interest for the rest of your life and never work a day.

[00:36:30]So, crime me if it's not enough money for you. The rest of it is taxed at 99.95% or something like that. Um, because we could use the money obviously, universal care, universal childare, all of those those things. But also, what do they do with the extra money?

[00:36:45]>> I know it's insane.

[00:36:45]>> I mean, all they do is use it to buy [ __ ] they don't need. It's insane. and to keep hold on to more power and destroy our democracy, right?

[00:36:53]>> Or fund groups that will prevent them from having to pay higher taxes, right?

[00:36:56]>> There was a great line that Zoran Mamani had on the flagrant podcast during the election when Bill Aman kept funding campaigns against him and he said he goes, "Bill Habibi, I don't want to tax you as much as you're spending on donations to stop." Like the whole thing is just >> Well, I do. I mean, I'll be blunt.

[00:37:10]That's >> I'm with you. I don't understand what like Elon Musk wants to keep his first trillion. He's going to be the first trillion out on current trends. Like what do you do with that? There's it's you and I similar age. Brewster's millions. Richard Prior, great movie growing up. Like he has to spend $30 million in 30 days. It is hard to spend billions of dollars. How do you spend a trillion?

[00:37:31]>> The dynamics here. So to get on onto the economics, um if there is so much regulatory capture and rent seeking um and they have such power, then this only gets worse.

[00:37:43]>> Yes. like it speeds up actually in the absence of meaningful regulation. By the way, we should be taxing corporations far higher as well, of course.

[00:37:51]>> No, we're seeing it speed up. We're seeing levels not seen since the 1920s.

[00:37:54]>> Right. Right. And and to be very very clear, we're talking about taxing a thousand people. That's it. And corporations literally, as far as I'm concerned, I don't want to tax anybody else.

[00:38:03]>> Massive public support, including from MAGA.

[00:38:05]>> I mean, we're talking about 80%. And yet, we can't get it. Gee, I I wonder why. It mean because they own.

[00:38:10]>> It must it must just be the bad Republicans.

[00:38:13]>> Yeah.

[00:38:14]>> Can't possibly >> not. It's not bipartisan.

[00:38:16]>> It's not. No. Couldn't possibly.

[00:38:18]>> No. No. No. No. That's that's outrageous.

[00:38:20]>> Anyway, I >> um We're going to come to politics. I promise. Just finishing this just just putting a bow in this.

[00:38:25]>> You're trying to talk about my movie and I'm trying to talk about politics.

[00:38:27]>> No, I'm going to talk about politics.

[00:38:29]Don't you worry. And you've already taken us there. Don't worry. But I got I got to ask this one cuz I got a clip I want to play to you. When I hear about cult and crypto and [ __ ] I cannot help but think of AI.

[00:38:41]>> I feel like there are parallels watching your documentary like, you know what Ben McKenzie should do next? He should make a documentary about AI. I would watch the [ __ ] out of that. And I I look at that Sam Beckman Freed interview. I look at these interviews and I think of this.

[00:38:52]Let's play the next clip.

[00:38:53]>> AI is going to be massively deflationary. Um, I've gone back and forth on this a little bit because you can imagine some weird things happening with all of the money in the world going into self-replicating data centers or whatever. The empowerment of individual people, whether or not society has structured in a way where they've naturally had all the advantages looks like it's going to go up and up.

[00:39:14]massively more abundance and access and massively decrease costs to be able to create new things, new companies, discover new science, whatever. Um, I think that should be an equalizing force in society and a way that people who have not gotten treated that fairly get a really good shot as long as we don't screw up the the policy around it in a big way, which could happen.

[00:39:40]>> Sounds familiar. Did you read the uh profile of him and New Yorker? I did.

[00:39:44]>> Did you recall there's this one quote from an anonymous Microsoft executive who has business with OpenI and he said there's a pretty decent chance that he's the next Bernie Maidoff or Sam Bankfrieded.

[00:39:56]>> My heart sank. I mean [ __ ] you know >> I mean the analogies are there.

[00:40:02]Obviously >> he has not committed any crimes.

[00:40:04]>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:05]>> We had that dis we had that disclaimer but the the the [ __ ] >> Yes.

[00:40:08]>> the people sitting around that he promises the world >> it's a very long article. I recommend people reading it, but read it. But but it's it's many many many sources that have worked with Sam that say he's basically a pathological liar. I mean, that's them talking, not me. Yes.

[00:40:21]>> So, um, we have to, you know, again, >> the point is is like Sam Bank is one of many, right? Sam Alman is one of many people in this cult with bros pushing this new abundance future and saying everything's going to be great. and they're spending in elections like crypto to defeat any candidates who don't want data centers in their district who want to regulate these AI bros, >> right? I mean, I would say the difference between AI and crypto is that AI is an actual technology that does actually have and crypto isn't. And let me explain why. Um, because there's a lot of sort of handwavy like sort of like technobaby stuff that gets out of crypto bros mouths, but the reality is blockchain has been around for 35 years.

[00:41:05]It goes back to 1991. Stuart Haber and Scott Stornetta at Bell Labs building off the work of cryptographers like David Sham who I've interviewed. And you'll notice something about blockchain. It's not used in any business outside of the cryptocurrency industry. It is exceedingly hard to find a business that is not in the crypto industry that uses blockchain. Why?

[00:41:24]Because it sucks. Bitcoin can only process 5 to seven transactions a second. Visa can do 24,000.

[00:41:32]Bitcoin cannot work as a global payments method because the tech sucks. Even Sam Bankman Freed admitted that to me when I interviewed him and then then he said, well, other blockchains are faster, including Salana um which is also a coin that he owned a lot of. Um, so the tech is bad. Yeah.

[00:41:50]>> Um, for all the reasons that we've talked about and I think the AI thing is more troubling because it's not it's not about it is about the tech of course, but it's about who controls the tech, right? Um, and of course, you know, Sam is Sam Ultman is trying to flip it into I'm the good steward here, but why in the world should we trust him? I mean, he has the most to win. Yes. Of of anyone in the world.

[00:42:13]>> And they are funding anti-regulatory campaigns, >> of course. And that is the overlap. And of course, it comes back to what you said, which is there is a bipartisan problem in this country where Democrats and Republicans are both susceptible to corporate pack spending, to intimidation by the.1%.

[00:42:27]And to this ideology that says if you're a good capitalist, you leave all these people alone. There's no model. You know, the people like Lena Khan who were running the FDC were run out of town.

[00:42:36]She's now working for Mandani. Um, what do you make of the Democrats right now under Chuck Schumer and Hakee Jeff? Are they in the right place politically? I feel like they're gonna win the House and Senate, but that's in spite of them, not because of them.

[00:42:48]>> Exactly correct. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, are they in a good place? What place are they in under under Schumer and Jeffre?

[00:42:54]Do they know? Uh, yeah. No, absolutely.

[00:42:58]Um, look, I respect the service. Uh, but, um, uh, in my opinion, uh, it is time for Chuck Schumer to hang it up and at least step down as a as a as leader.

[00:43:11]And the same for Jeffrey is is a younger man. So I I I can't >> it's not an age issue. It's just a bad judgment issue.

[00:43:17]>> Well, look, I mean, we have to decide who we are and we have to the good news about Trump, the only one of the few silver linings is that he's exploded the Overton window of what's possible. Um he has just >> blown it up. And unfortunately, he's on the bad side, right? He's doing everything he can to destroy this country in so many different ways. But hopefully that galvanizes the rest of us. shift it back >> to shift it back and that is not just the the the sort of core democratic constituencies when we talk about the billionaires that's 80% of the country >> agreed >> right so we can find common ground fighting against corruption but we can't if the democrats are complicit complacent and cowards in the face of it so we have to be braver stronger and you know this word authenticity they're throwing this around you know that's the new thing we have to find candidates that are authent authentic Yeah, >> [ __ ] You're either authentic or you're not.

[00:44:13]>> And you're and you're an actor.

[00:44:14]>> Yeah. And like I know I'm cursing a lot to be authentic, but like >> a lot of Democrats are cursing.

[00:44:18]>> Well, I'm just going to Yeah, I know.

[00:44:20]And then and then they're trying cursing on as though like they're the, you know, trying to hang out with Trump.

[00:44:24]>> Yeah. They're trying to hang out with the older kids in the park and trying it on. It's like you're either authentic or you're not. So be authentic >> or find someone who's authentic.

[00:44:32]>> Yeah. Well, step aside.

[00:44:34]>> There are people running.

[00:44:35]>> Absolutely.

[00:44:35]>> Authentic. I want to come to someone like that. Quick question. When are you running for office?

[00:44:40]Uh, I really hope that I never have to run for office.

[00:44:42]>> That is not a no. I will point out you're a very good politician already.

[00:44:46]Um, you're from Texas. You've been involved in uh election efforts for other candidates for uh you tried, you were part of the turn Texas blue campaign.

[00:44:54]>> That didn't go so well.

[00:44:55]>> I watched the ad with you and Marina.

[00:44:56]Uh, what do you think of James Tarico in Texas running for the Senate?

[00:45:00]>> I think he's a very talented politician.

[00:45:02]I think that he's done a very very good job of uh navigating what is a very tricky terrain in Texas. So, I give him a lot of props. Um I'm a little unclear on where he is on crypto and I have not had a chance to talk to him about it, but uh I would like to.

[00:45:17]>> Interesting.

[00:45:18]>> Um I'm not saying he's pro. I'm It's a little bit I don't know. So, uh Okay.

[00:45:24]>> Because that's my hobby horse. That's the thing that I need. But he's a very talented guy and I think he has a good chance with me again. I interviewed him a few months ago. Hopefully going to speak to him soon. I will ask him. I please.

[00:45:33]>> Um, you're also a New Yorker now. How have you felt about Mayor Mumani a little over 100 days in?

[00:45:38]>> I love him.

[00:45:39]>> You love him?

[00:45:39]>> He's fantastic.

[00:45:40]>> Okay.

[00:45:41]>> And one of my favorite things is when people say, um, well, I mean, it's New York, you know, New York is not America.

[00:45:52]>> [ __ ] America is nothing without New York. It's the large. It's the largest city in the country. It's the center of capital. It's the center of culture. And you were saying New York isn't America.

[00:46:03]>> No, Kentucky is America. What are you talking about?

[00:46:05]>> We're all America, but you can't you clearly can't exclude the largest country, the largest idea that some liberal bastion, they elected Giuliani, Bloomberg, Eric Adams. This is not this is not a city that was just electing one socialist after another. It was actually quite impressive.

[00:46:23]>> They pulled it off in a city like that with his socialist politics, with his criticisms of of Israel.

[00:46:27]>> But but he is but he is authentic, right?

[00:46:30]who he is.

[00:46:31]>> I mean, my favorite Mumani moment is he's standing in the Oval Office and he says, "Yeah, he's a fascist."

[00:46:34]>> Right?

[00:46:35]>> He doesn't back away from me. He does. I can't say this in front of Donald Trump.

[00:46:37]In fact, Trump gives him permission to say and then he was asked again recently in an interview on NBC, "Do you still think he's a fascist?" Yeah, even though he texts with Trump, >> that is authenticity >> and that is skill. Real political skill.

[00:46:47]>> Very good. Uh, shame he's not born in the US. Um, >> Brad Lander was a a person who worked with Mum Dani, cross endorsed Mum Dani, was part of the campaign. He's now running for Congress against Dan Goldman. Uh you mentioned a moment ago that you're supporting him over crypto.

[00:47:02]Uh which makes sense. Dan Goldman voted for the Genius Act, which you said is a dumb act. We agree. Um Brad Lander is also Jewish, running against Dan Goldman, who's Jewish. Dan Goldman's super pro-Israel. Bradlander, a critical of Israel. I think it's fair to say he's not anti-Zionist, but he's very critical of what Netanyahu has done and the genocide there. Does that factor into your equation at all? Well, I I'll just point out that there are, you know, Apac is notorious for not only spending money on races, but hiding the fact that they're spending the money >> and making their ads never mention Israel, >> right?

[00:47:36]>> Guess what other industry also does that?

[00:47:40]>> Crypto.

[00:47:40]>> Crypto, right? So, that has turned like that. Now, all of a sudden, in certain key districts, voters are aware of who Apac is funding. Let's do the same for crypto. That's one of my goals. Let's do the same. Let's let's let's let everybody know just just who is on what side here. People are corporations.

[00:48:01]>> Yeah. And and on people are corporations and crypto. Dan Goldman is on one side.

[00:48:04]Bradland is other. On Israel, too. Do you recognize that?

[00:48:07]>> Yes. Is that is that a coincidence? I mean, I don't know.

[00:48:09]>> Uh in an interview with John Stewart, you said elites in power in the Democratic party have made this decision or a series of decisions starting from a while ago and chosen capital over labor.

[00:48:18]Do you think that's changing at all?

[00:48:20]right now.

[00:48:21]>> Oh, in the primaries. In the primaries, I'm >> We're seeing a lot more energy. You know, you saw the Bernie Sanders AOC anti-oligarchy tour.

[00:48:27]>> Yes. I I'm I'm always hesitant as a I mean, look, I'm a Democrat from Texas, so I've had my share of hard times. Um I'm always hesitant to get too excited, but I am excited. I am I am I'm I'm I'm boyed by the fact, am I you saying that right? I'm buoied by the fact that um that um not only are Democrats winning and winning by large margins in in in sometimes unconservative uh districts, but but people are outflanking the current reps from the left.

[00:48:59]>> Yeah.

[00:49:00]>> And and winning and I think that is a very very good sign. Um for for far far too long the Democratic party may perhaps since Clinton has been just afraid yeah of representing regular working people and it's insane because certainly the Republican party isn't doing that.

[00:49:17]>> Money had a great line recently in an interview where he said we need to move beyond a time where if people want to see Democrats being courageous they have to look in the history books. Yeah.

[00:49:24]>> Uh which I thought was a very powerful line because everyone's always calling FDI. It's like you can be FDR now if you want to. Joe Biden claimed he would be FDI. They brought in a bust, I believe, FDR, but you know, didn't go all the way. Um, who's your pick for president in 2028? And you can't say JD Vance.

[00:49:40]>> Damn. I can't say. Can I say Tucker Carlson?

[00:49:42]>> Marubia.

[00:49:43]>> Wait, are you sorry? You saying is popular on some part?

[00:49:46]>> This is Republican side. No, >> Democratic. Who's your pick? I assume you're a Democrat who wants a Democratic president. Who would you like to see run at least if not if you don't have a single?

[00:49:53]>> I mean, I would like to see everyone run. I really >> I think everyone is going to run.

[00:49:56]>> Yes. I think 35 people running.

[00:49:58]>> Great. It's called democracy.

[00:50:00]very crowded. I mean, do you remember in 2016 there were about 18 17 Republicans around. They had to have the kitty table debate the night before with like the losers like Lindsey Graham who did like the night they got the shitty night before and then Donald Trump was with like Jeb Bush on the main night. I feel like the Democrats going to have three of those cuz if you have like 35 people that's like 12 a night.

[00:50:18]>> Yeah. Well, look, it'll be better than the last time when we coordination.

[00:50:21]>> Yeah, the coordination. We didn't have a, you know, because Biden hung on too long. We we we never had the open process. I would like the open process.

[00:50:27]Yeah. We'll see how messy it gets. I'm not going to let you do politician. You have to answer the question. Pick someone or pick a couple. Pick people you like.

[00:50:34]>> I I I I have to say I and I'm not trying to be a politician about that.

[00:50:37]Genuinely, I genuinely like a lot I I think we have a really strong >> Do you like AOC? You're from >> I love AOC. Okay.

[00:50:43]>> I think >> What do you make of Ro Connor from Silicon Valley lefty being very anti-war?

[00:50:49]>> Crypto.

[00:50:50]>> Crypto. What's I don't know.

[00:50:51]>> I don't know. Oh, I I don't want to speak out of turn because I haven't done a ton of homework, but there's just it's hard for Silicon Valley Dems to be >> okay.

[00:50:59]>> Outspoken against places like things like crypto.

[00:51:02]>> Interesting.

[00:51:02]>> So, what about uh Gavin Newsome from California?

[00:51:07]>> I mean, give me a break.

[00:51:08]>> I love the way you're like, I just want everyone to run. And it wasn't very I mean, yeah, >> when I go through the list, you're like, this is my guy. All right, give me Yeah, keep going. I want >> Let's keep going. I happily keep going.

[00:51:18]What do you think of Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania? Yeah, I mean I like what he's done in the state. Um I I I I So look, I am uh >> Have you seen this documentary, The BB Files?

[00:51:31]>> Uh I haven't seen it all. I know some of it.

[00:51:33]>> You need You should watch I mean I know you like to watch Jason Staith the movies.

[00:51:37]>> Watch Jason St the movies in your documentary.

[00:51:38]>> The BB Files is a documentary that came out last year.

[00:51:40]>> Yes. Alex um Alex Gibney. I think it's Alex Gibney.

[00:51:44]>> I think he's a producer on it. Yeah.

[00:51:45]Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and it is the uh police interrogation videos of Benjamin Yadahu and and it really for me as someone who was born like I was not aware of Netanyahu's entire history um and and the footage of the investigations is really fascinating. Um, but I encourage people to watch it because um, the way I would message this is that uh, Benjamin Benjamin Netanyahu does not have um, the best interests of even his own people at heart and has been um, exploiting the situation uh, to his benefit. Um, this is not a you know pro-Jewish anti-Jew this is not a an issue of of faith. This is an issue of politics and he is a very skilled politician who's hold held on to power uh for a very long time with great cost in human lives.

[00:52:36]>> Do you think Josh Shabir is too pros or is that why he started talking about Net >> I I I that's my concern but I don't know. I don't know.

[00:52:41]>> JB Pritsker surely know because he's a billionaire and you're not a fan of billionaires.

[00:52:45]>> Well, I'm not I I Yeah. And you know Styer running for in California. I I do have a problem. I don't want us to be obviously oh we get to pick the good billionaires and it's not about whether you made billions that's fine >> um I mean most of the time some of it right um >> as AOC once said you don't make a billion you take a billion >> yeah I mean there is this this this at what point does your entrepreneurship transfer over into well first of all how much of that is luck >> being at the right place at the right time I mean obviously all of these guys and it is always guys like they are the most the smartest people that have ever lived but perhaps there was a bit of luck there and also when does it switch over into rent seeking where it's not really about the technology um it's that Amazon has you know a sort of a strangle hold over uh uh buying things online >> do you not worry sorry to take a tangent we're about to wrap up but I got to ask this do you not worry when you talk about Amazon and billionaires and corporations and taxing you're not worried about your own career I mean Hollywood is a place run by billionaires and corporations >> it's still a free country you know, for for for now. And the other and the other thing is I'm a I'm a rich white college educated dude. If I can't speak up, >> who can? Like again, model behavior. So maybe I don't get the next Matt Damon movie. Maybe I'm not.

[00:54:05]>> Yeah, I don't think you're getting the Matt Dam.

[00:54:07]>> Yeah, okay, fine. Whatever. Maybe Bezos doesn't put me in whatever Amazon's doing. [ __ ] you. I don't care. Like, I'm >> At least you got to say piece.

[00:54:14]>> And by the way, there might be a few other people on the other side. I mean, Ted Sarandos like he uh he couldn't speak up because they were uh yeah, they were going to try to merge and now u I don't know, Ted, it'd be a good way to position yourself.

[00:54:26]>> Fair. Last question. Uh the senator in the movie who who uh asked you questions, Chris Van Holland might run for president. What do you make of him?

[00:54:34]>> I like him as a person, as a as a as a as a senator. Yeah, >> I'm glad we did this. Glad I'm glad we went beyond your they should all just run. Um where can people see everyone is lying to you for money? They should go to everyoneisling.com. That is our website which we'll update as so basically we needed to prove our this is a true indie independently financed. I financed it myself.

[00:54:54]>> It wasn't financed in Bitcoin.

[00:54:55]>> It was not financed in Bitcoin. It was financed in part by a short bet that I made that crypto was going to crash.

[00:55:00]Yeah. I made about I made about a million dollars betting against various frauds like crypto. And I financed this is in the book.

[00:55:06]>> That's amazing.

[00:55:07]>> Yeah. So yeah, fun. um putting my money where my mouth is and uh um but but you know suffice it to say I have not made my money back yet. Um >> documentaries are hard to make money off. We know that here as a >> is very hard. Um so basically people need to come see this in the theater to the degree that it's uh possible and I know that that's hard. I'm a father of three. The number of non-animated movies that I've seen in the movie theater in the last couple years count on one hand.

[00:55:31]>> There are couples at home watching which should we watch this weekend? Film about crypto. No, it's really good. Don't be >> put it is kind of a date night movie, right? a little bit. Don't you think you >> There's a scene at the end with you and Marina. The sunset.

[00:55:42]>> Yes.

[00:55:43]>> Come on. All right. Very date night movie.

[00:55:45]>> Yeah, date night movie.

[00:55:46]>> Exactly. So, everyone is uh every everyone is lying.com and also every uh Instagram is everyone is lying film.

[00:55:53]>> Uh what are you doing next? Last question. Another dog or are you back to cop shows?

[00:55:57]>> Yeah. Uh I want to take the skills I've learned uh and go back to television in the sense of creating a show for myself that has social justice at the heart of it. And so I have this idea. I'm working with David E. Kelly uh you know fantastic uh brilliant uh legendary showrunner on a legal drama political thriller set in New York um inspired by real people and events surrounding the Eric Adams corruption investigations.

[00:56:25]Well, promise me you'll come back when you decide to run for office so we can do a proper political interview and I'll put a suit and tie on.

[00:56:30]>> I have no idea what you're talking about.

[00:56:32]>> Okay. Still no denial. You'll not um make sure to like and subscribe to We're Not Kidding wherever you get your podcasts. Um and don't forget to head over to zato.com to become a subscriber so you can get We're not kidding as soon as it drops before anyone else. For now, from me, I'm Mahi Hassan.

[00:56:48]>> I'm Ben McKenzie.

[00:56:50]>> And we were not kidding.

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