Building a Creative Empire with Mary Engelbreit | Spool S2 EP2

Hinzugefügt: 2026-05-19

[00:00:21]from Dallas, Texas. This is school hosted by Dr. Neils Romer, dean of the Bass School at UT Dallas. Thank you so much today for joining me here. I'm thrilled to welcome to the spool Mary Angelbrite, a widely celebrated and known illustrator of children's books, cars, calendars. There's a, you know, plethora of things that she's produced over decades and a really exceptional story of passion and success. I'm so thrilled to meet you, Mary. Um, really great honor to interview Mary Angelbright. There's a lot of mystery of sorts about your biography once one digs really into it because there's a nine-year-old who goes to school and kind of thinks about creating a wanting an art studio and then one forwards 30 years later thereabout and no not even and you create your own company and then you forward a little bit further and it has turned into what is a hund00 million company and today you have some super fans. So that doesn't happen to a lot of us. So there's a lot in there that we want to try to understand and therefore we're really really happy to have you here. Going back to your school days, we have to imagine that you like any other little kid went to school and uh hopefully liked school math a little bit, maybe a little less, but you like drawing early on. Lots of us as kids draw, but then but for most of us or almost all of us, it kind of stays there. But with you, it was a little different, wasn't it?

[00:01:52]It was I I loved it. My favorite thing to do from very young. Yeah.

[00:01:58]>> Were you indis indiscriminately drawing all kinds of things that you saw or were you right away like toward illustrating of books and of animals or >> Yeah. My um mother used to read to us every night um from these beautiful books that were hers when she was little and and some of them were my grandmother's when she was little. So the illustrations were really beautiful and they made a big impression on me and so I would try to illustrate those stories too afterwards. And um tried to make up stories on my own but but um the interest to me was not as much the story as the illustrations were.

[00:02:45]>> So they took on a form onto itself for you in many ways. So >> you you enjoyed doing this passionately as as a kid and then at some point when the question came so Mary what would you like to do with your life you said I want to illustrate children's books and your parents said of course why not >> they did they really >> they were always so supportive yeah always >> very very exceptional because I I don't think you know there's something really this is not exactly what the traditional career path is right born in the 1950s.

[00:03:20]You don't >> neither one of them were artistic at all.

[00:03:23]>> That's what I was wondering. No music, no singing, no illustrating in the family.

[00:03:31]>> In my family? No. Nobody. Nobody. But but they were, like I said, they were just so supportive whatever we wanted to do. Like our house was full of art supplies um from the time, you know, I was little.

[00:03:48]And when they realized that I really liked it, they signed me up for some art courses in the neighborhood, you know, ladies teaching art to kids. And um yeah, they never ever said, "What do you mean you want to be an artist? How are you going to make money?" You know, they never said anything like that. They just said, "Great."

[00:04:09]>> No, I I you know, that makes it so much more plausible. But one can easily envision that in other families that would have been well that's a nice thing for you to do and you should enjoy this as your as your hobby of sorts but don't turn this into into a career.

[00:04:24]>> But you very early on must have started to develop a very firm belief in your own abilities. So, at what point did you think, okay, there's something here that that really you love so passionately and and so started to believe so strongly in your ability that you just thought, okay, I'm going to stick this out.

[00:04:45]>> Yeah. And I I don't know why. I mean, I wasn't I I was good, but I I wasn't um fantastic or anything, but it is I just got so much pleasure from the act of drawing and um creating, thinking of ideas um that that's what I wanted to do. And in high school, I started drawing and selling the cards, little cards. Um, I would buy blank wedding invitations and then I'd do a little original drawing on each one and I sold them to a local store.

[00:05:22]>> This was your first big sale, right?

[00:05:25]>> Wow.

[00:05:26]>> That was your first big sale.

[00:05:29]>> Yes. Yeah.

[00:05:30]>> Mhm. And I was determined. People really liked them. So, I just thought I'm just going to keep doing this. So there's just simply a lot of early positive reinforcement. In other words, one, you you enjoy very much what you're doing, and two, you very quickly run into lots of people really appreciate what you're doing.

[00:05:52]>> Right. Right. I managed to get it out.

[00:05:56]I think that's the key to everything that happened was that I managed to get it out in front of people early.

[00:06:02]>> Right. and um and I realized that they liked it and there was an audience for it.

[00:06:10]>> So, you know, I guess I thought, well, if I can keep doing this and keep getting it out there, um everything will work out.

[00:06:19]>> It it certainly did. It certainly all worked out. But, but you know, it kind of kept working out for you well. But then in 1982, you fun founded a company.

[00:06:29]So that you know that would have been another I mean this is at that point you're 30 right? So that's quite a leap to say okay what I really need is to turn this all into a big enterprise of sorts.

[00:06:42]Yeah. And the way that came about was I had been freelancing for years um with several companies and they were great, but I wanted them to like one of them did calendars and uh and then we did a few cards with some smaller companies, but they weren't moving as fast as I wanted them to move. They weren't producing as many things as I wanted them to produce. And so we thought, uh, we can do this. They're printers here, you know, we'll we can do this ourselves. And set it up in my basement and started selling cards.

[00:07:27]>> So there's >> So you that part I had not even fully contemplated. So early on you become your own physical producer. You set up your own printing shop. So, it's not just that you set up a company, but you're physically actually printing it in your basement.

[00:07:42]>> Well, no. We weren't We were printing them in a printing company here in St. Louis, but we were warehousing everything in my basement until we outgrew it and got a little office and just kept growing like that.

[00:07:55]>> So, why do you think it was such a big success? Does that have to do with the fact that it was cards and and calendars and that you did so many different things in so many different forms that it was something that people touched used um returned to or what explain? I mean, there's obviously something incredibly charming about the illustrations, and I don't want to take any of that away, but there's nonetheless the kind of real success that is I mean, all the way to to today with these super fans that, you know, it's like almost hard to to fathom how this could have happened so easily.

[00:08:33]>> Yeah. It um I think that it was because the drawings were pretty different for that time.

[00:08:43]At at that time, greeting cards were mainly um little animals or flowers. And I put out greeting cards that had quotes on the front of the card. Um that I thought would mean something to people.

[00:08:58]Um and I drew uh I used a lot of black backgrounds, which nobody did back then.

[00:09:07]So they were just different enough, I think, to attract attention. And then the um sentiments on the front of the card were different and people just recognized themselves I think in the drawings because I was drawing things that were happening to me every day. Um so I think people recognized themselves in the drawings and that's why they were attracted to them. And yeah, we put them on products that people used every day, greeting cards and calendars and picture frames and you know all kinds of things like that that they actually used >> well used is I mean that you know start to really connect with their own private world. So in lots of ways then your artwork becomes another way by which they remember parts of their biographies, parts of their bringing up their children, cards that they send to loved ones. And so you and that's I think the the real intricate thing about your art that it kind of infiltrates almost the private lives of of of of your consumers. So they don't just use it like you use like a shuffle or something like that. They use it in in these really, you know, spaces that come along with children, you know, calendars and things and very much in their private lives.

[00:10:31]A lot of people told us, and we realized this was happening, that they would buy, say, a greeting card. Greeting cards were a biggest thing at the time, but uh they'd buy one greeting card to send to a friend and then they'd buy one to keep for themselves because they, you know, whatever they saw in the card meant so much to them, they wanted to have it too and then they would spread that message to their friend. But I think that was a a big part of our business actually.

[00:11:01]>> So that's multiple.

[00:11:02]>> Yeah, that's that's the kind of explains maybe the business side. Um, how about yourself? We started earlier on talking about that in lots of ways there was never the big decision- making beyond you simply being very passionate about drawing. How is it today for you? Are you still being able to kind of fall back into that former self of yours that just enjoy tremendously to draw or is it always project oriented or >> Yeah, I mean today it's the exact same feeling I get when I sit down to draw.

[00:11:36]It's it's how I get through the day is is you know knowing I'll be able to draw and I still have you know lots and lots of ideas. Um so it's yeah it's the same it's I feel exactly the same now doing it as I did at the very beginning. So in lots of ways you know your daily routine of sorts has never dramatically changed because it always has involved waking up drinking coffee or not drinking coffee maybe tea whatever your preferred drink is but drawing every day drawing has always been >> right drawing or making something and yeah that's it's the key to everything in my life. Do you ever like when you draw, do you draw just at home or do you also take your you do you also draw outdoors landscape at times these days or is it mostly at home?

[00:12:33]>> It's always at home.

[00:12:35]>> Almost at home.

[00:12:36]>> I'm um yeah, I've often asked my friends, "How in the world do you paint outside with the bugs and the heat and the drag, all the stuff there?" So, I I'm pretty much at my table all the time and um everything that I want to draw is right here in my head. So, I've got everything I need right there.

[00:13:01]>> So, how's that for you then as a as a consumer yourself? Do you buy greeting cards or do you say, "Oh, just hold off.

[00:13:09]I just have a few here that that I've done myself." Or do you enjoy the work of others or >> I do I don't I actually don't ironically I don't send a lot of cards.

[00:13:23]>> Well, none of us any longer do much, you know.

[00:13:27]>> No, most of us don't use cards any longer as much. So, but >> Well, that's that's another problem.

[00:13:33]>> That is another problem.

[00:13:35]But um yeah, I love to shop for greeting cards and I love other artists artwork and I buy them and um save them for special occasions, send them to friends.

[00:13:46]And >> how about children's?

[00:13:48]>> How about children's books? Do you buy them just, you know, illustrated by other artists or >> I do I have slowed down on that just because I've got so many.

[00:13:59]>> You have probably a few, right?

[00:14:02]>> Yeah. I have two little grandchildren, girls, and um but their parents buy them books like crazy. So >> So that's good, right? Imagine the opposite. That would be difficult, right? If you had grandchildren who wouldn't have, you know, children's book, that would be difficult, right, for you to live with.

[00:14:20]>> That would be bad.

[00:14:21]>> That would be bad.

[00:14:21]>> That would be bad.

[00:14:22]>> This would be bad.

[00:14:23]>> Um but yeah, I love other artists work and I love buying it and supporting it whenever I can.

[00:14:28]>> Do you read sometimes to your grandchildren as well? children's books.

[00:14:33]>> Yes. Uhhuh. I do. They have some favorites. Um well, a couple of mine they like. Uh I've got a fairy tale book that they like to read and um but um I'm trying to think of some that I've read to them recently.

[00:14:51]They're a little more modern than mine, which they also like. Um but yeah, times change. I mean, when I started, nobody had phones. Nobody had, you know, wasn't they, nobody was emailing everybody back and forth. They wrote notes, they sent cards, they use calendars on the wall. Um, so even though we do of course sell all that stuff still, um, it's very different than it was >> these days. uh children's books, greeting cards, calendars are far less often used and just reminds me like there are some books that I read with my children to this day we have some phrases because they obviously you obviously read the same book over and over as as a parent, right? And so that however creates also a particular language that certain phrases I can still use today and my sons know exactly you know what I mean and what the implication is and >> these days are a little older so when I use those words in front of their girlfriends and they kind of smirk at me a little bit they don't want to be reminded of those days but you know you don't have that attachment to words any longer as much unless you have those types of things around you like illustrated children's books that you read every night over and over again.

[00:16:17]>> I think a lot of people do still have those um especially the children's books, you know, um everybody was so afraid when books went online, you know, all the bookstores were going to close and it was going to be horrible and and that didn't happen.

[00:16:33]And actually there's an uptick in the new bookstores, independent bookstores, and everybody's reading. Um, but it never affected children's books anyway because you want to have that in your hand >> on your lap with the kid and you want to be looking at the pictures >> and um so that's never really children's books.

[00:16:55]>> No, it's true. Also, if I think about my kids, they however much they embrace technology, um it took them quite some time until they started reading books on on devices. They for the longest time, particular their favorite books, you know, when it came to birthdays, they still insisted on getting the physical copies. That was not the same. and they, you know, even now I mean they're moved out and they've gone to colleges but they're still moving around those copies you know of these you know beloved books that they read early on and they also read them you know often repeatedly again and I think there's something really comforting about the physicality of having that book again that they read over and over again and kind of returning to that but eventually you when they get older they do increasingly also use then you know digital books and the likes but you early on.

[00:17:46]>> They are maybe the last users also of public libraries in large numbers, you know, because if you go to public libraries, you see a lot of kids in there these days.

[00:17:54]>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think they love the whole thing about the library, you know, they like going in, they get to pick out so many books and they get to use their card and or sit around there and read.

[00:18:05]And I think libraries are um the last >> town square.

[00:18:12]>> The last town square. That's nice.

[00:18:14]That's a good good way of thinking about it. Tell me, you know, there's, >> you know, obviously I need to ask you about your super fans.

[00:18:22]>> Uh, you need to explain this a little bit because >> what are they? How does it look like?

[00:18:29]>> Well, >> well, we love them.

[00:18:30]>> No, of course you do. You know, >> and they love you, right?

[00:18:35]>> And they love you, right?

[00:18:38]>> Evidently. Yeah. Yeah. Or they love the work anyway. And um yeah, they're so sweet and they, you know, comment on things uh on Instagram and stuff. We hear from them and we um like to know, you know, what they like because that's important to us. Um and they've been fans for such a long time and they go with the flow, you know, they go with whatever we're putting out. they're interested in it and they >> but I think from what I gather the some of these super fans have literally you know rooms in the houses dedicated to some of your artwork. So they're not just commenting on social media and and you know giving you a little hearts up or something like that. They they really have dedicated a room in their respective house where some of your artwork is on display. Is that right?

[00:19:29]>> Right.

[00:19:30]>> Right. Right. and >> and it was long before um you know the digital age that these people started collecting >> so we would get letters and photographs way back then and you know we knew we knew they were out therearkable >> and they made themselves known and >> and we love them.

[00:19:47]>> No, I bet you do. Um just few minutes ago before I you know you know started talking to you I just obviously Googled you a little bit and then I googled your name but images and then my computer almost collapsed because it goes on and on and on and on. I mean there's so much that you've done over the years. Is there anything that in your mind? I mean, I love the one. I think you did one which was has a Mona Lisa on on top and it's called like me and art or something like that. But is it >> Yeah, that that calendar is coming out for 2027.

[00:20:21]>> Oh yeah, that's what >> where I did the classics. I copied I did my version of classics.

[00:20:27]>> Yeah. No, I obviously I had a bit of a giggle when I saw that. But is there anything that stands out in in all these degates where you like if you look back you really feel okay that was a very very special kind of project for you or there all your productions equally close to your heart >> when I'm doing them they're they're the most important thing in the world but yeah when I look back um I've had some Great.

[00:21:01]>> Um, like I did the um >> I helped do the sets and costumes for a a production of Matilda >> here in town at the Mini Opera. That was really, really fun.

[00:21:16]Um, >> and then there just some drawings that I'm very fond of and >> you know I think they're >> you know I love or and some books that I've done that I really am proud of like Mother Goose and The Night Before Christmas and >> um so yeah they're they're >> it's been a really >> fun business and um >> and I have fond memories of almost all of it.

[00:21:48]>> Tell me something. You know, we talked already about your exceptional success.

[00:21:52]Um, so, but then how is it are you're also inspiring new illustrators that that you know talk to you like I do and say, "Mary, tell us about how you turn toward this and how this all worked out." And then your answer is, well, I've kind of done it all along. I just followed my passion. I mean, how is this if you talk to aspiring uh young artists and you know they want to know about you?

[00:22:20]>> It's very different you know I mean I can hardly even offer them advice because it is so different than when I started you know they said how can I do this? Well you can't do it the way I did it because it's just not done that way anymore. So and I am not that familiar.

[00:22:39]I don't work on a computer and um so I'm not uh real clear about that part of the art. But all I can say is that you just have to kind of if you are passionate about it and you're willing to put in the work and it is work to keep it going. Um you know just stick with it. I'm I'm not sure what to tell them about, you know, they asked me about the digital art because that is how a lot of illustrations are done now and I can't help them with that.

[00:23:20]>> But >> and licensing has changed quite a bit since I started.

[00:23:25]>> As a matter of fact, it's made a 360 turn. I mean, there's just >> you can't do it the way I did it back then. But you already said I mean maybe the the the true consonant in all that today as it always has been is one's passionate one's own interests and then I guess >> right >> kind of willingness also to pursue this.

[00:23:47]I mean this is the other kind of magic in all of this. It's not just that one has to be passionate about something but you have to be willing to really chase it right and be really intentional about it.

[00:23:58]>> Yeah. I mean there's a there's a lot of work involved and there's a lot of uh boring nonart business to take care of to make it >> I mean if you don't mind considering how exceptionally successful you have been is there like one episode where you felt like you were submitting something and you were just flatly turned down or just one miserable failure, you know, where you learned something or is there a story like that? Um >> um let me think. Let me think. I have to say certainly at the beginning it was great.

[00:24:37]I mean it was just it was just one thing one great thing happening after another.

[00:24:44]We kind of just followed what was being offered to us and we learned as we went along. you know, I didn't know anything about licensing and when people offered to license, we like, you know, quick figured it out and did it and everything went well. Of course, we've had a lot of things that didn't sell very well. Um, but it never seemed to um matter because you just keep going. I mean, there was always another project to do >> and so if one didn't work out, you were working another one that did >> um and I can't think of any uh horrible flops that we've had.

[00:25:26]>> No, not that I think you did, but it's just usually everyone has sometimes like a story like that, you know, where just >> Oh, we've had we've definitely had some troubles, but um you know, I mean it was hard for everybody when the economy, >> right, >> uh failed and it was hard through CO >> to keep everything going. Um, but there are ways, >> right, >> to get around everything and and like I say, you just >> you can't give up, you know, you just keep going, putting one foot in front of the other and and some either some opportunity will arise or you create an opportunity, you know.

[00:26:07]>> So tell us tell us, you know, something uh what are you draw what are you working on right now? main week >> right now. Um I am working on uh Oh my god, what am I working on? Well, we're about to start the next calendar, the 2028.

[00:26:27]>> Oh wow. Yeah, way ahead. We're just we're still so busy in 26 that we can't even fathom that there's a 27 coming after all of this. You know, >> much much less a 28. Yeah.

[00:26:38]>> Much less a 28. And um I'm going to be working on a book soon um that uh a friend of mine wrote, a friend of mine who works at the studio. Um but actually right now I'm kind of uh in between projects, but that doesn't mean I stop drawing. I keep drawing because every drawing I do they can use somewhere, you know? I mean, we even take little patterns out of a dress or out of a border and turn it into fabric.

[00:27:13]Um, I just finished a fabric line for um, oh my god, I forgot the name of the company. I always want to say Easy Spirit and that's not it. Free Spirit.

[00:27:26]>> Free Spirit.

[00:27:26]>> Free Spirit.

[00:27:27]>> Free.

[00:27:28]>> And, um, we just fig I just finished a a couple of lines of fabric for them. So, there's always something going on. Um, and lately, I never used to do this, but we have so many drawings on file. I think I've got something like 14,000 >> Wow.

[00:27:49]>> copyrighted drawings. So, >> they don't even need me anymore because they can take everything they need out of that >> out of those things, out of those drawings and those patterns and those borders.

[00:28:01]>> But I keep drawing. So, um, everything I draw we can use. Angle Dark started I think I want to say I want to say it was maybe around COVID I'm not sure but things had a little bit maybe slowed down and um and and everything was going well and we thought well or I thought believe me nobody else thought this at my company but I thought it would be fun. Um we were always thinking of kind of sarcastic versions of the cards and we would kid around at work and you know we had this kind of >> um bank of funny sayings and uh I thought wouldn't it be fun to illustrate those even though they're a little darker a little more sarcastic and >> you know it wasn't all happy kids and flowers and that kind of thing. um to put those into cards. And so I started doing a couple and I did them in black and white.

[00:29:12]>> Mhm.

[00:29:13]>> And they were pretty snarky.

[00:29:16]And we decided to do a line and put them out and they were very successful. We were afraid it was going to shut the business down, but um they were wildly successful and we ended up putting them on all the products, you know, the mugs and the >> Give us, you know, one example of one of those snarky lines.

[00:29:38]>> Oh. Um, one of them is >> I don't mean to get you in trouble, but you can share a snarky line with me.

[00:29:46]Yeah.

[00:29:47]>> Yeah. One of them is a is a uh little cat saying I I hope I can remember this. I'm sorry for all the awful, mean, accurate things I said about you >> is one of them.

[00:30:04]>> One of them. All right.

[00:30:06]>> And so, and another one is I would challenge you to a battle of wits, but I see you on are unarmed, which is the Shakespeare.

[00:30:14]>> All right. All right.

[00:30:15]>> And we thought, well, who who would you send these to? you know who we thought, you know, nobody's going to know.

[00:30:22]Nobody's going to want to see >> or receive a card like this, right?

[00:30:26]>> Yeah. They loved them.

[00:30:28]>> And we have a calendar of them. And uh >> Yeah.

[00:30:32]>> Wonderful. I really want to thank you again for spending a little time with me today being able to ask you some questions. Really credible. Reminds me also of the beauty of these greeting cards and how it feels to use them, how it feels to receive them, how to read children's books. And so has been a nice kind of revisiting of of myself also of sorts, you know, via our conversation.

[00:30:54]Really thrilled um to learn about your tremendous success. You again, Mary.

[00:30:58]This has been a wonderful experience learning about the the incredible successes that you had and these wonderful illustrations and what all these books and cards have meant for people over the years. Really, I'm so thrilled that I had a chance to learn all about that. My name is N. Roman. I'm the dean of the Bas School at UT Dallas.

[00:31:17]Please join me again next week as well.